posted
The heading says it all. Yet a certain poster as well as many others keep calling the black Baladi 'Nubian'. This label is idiotic as Nubians are of a totally different cultural background and speak unrelated languages to Baladi who are the non-Arab indigenous people of Egypt. While some Baladi are obviously of mixed ancestry due to the foreign invasions, many in rural areas especially in the south preserve their ancient black phenotype.
But because some have been so brainwashed into thinking black Nile Valley dweller = Nubian, these black indigenes who are direct descendants of the Dynastic culture are being mistaken for Nubians which is an insult to them!
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26421 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
quote:The essence of such traditionalism is in the Egyptians total adherence to precedence established by their ancestors. Everything they did, every action, every movement, every decree had to be justified in terms of their ancestral precedence to abide by and to explain their actions and deeds. The Ancient and Baladi Egyptians entire sociology and existence, from beginning to end, is nothing but a long chain of ancestral precedents every single link and rivet of which became a custom and a law, from their spiritual fathers unto themselves, in the flesh. Plato and other writers affirmed the complete adherence of the Egyptians to their own traditions. Nothing has changed with this attitude since then, for each traveler to Egypt since that time has confirmed the allegiances to such conservatism.
With all the false claims of how the Ancient Egyptians changed their ways, languages, religion, traditions, etc, careful study will show that such claims are mere mirages. The truth is that the ancient traditions never died, and they continue to survive within the silent majority, who are called (and they call themselves) Baladi, meaning natives. The loud minority of Egyptians (high governmental officials, academicians, journalists, and the self-proclaimed intellectuals) are described by the silent majority as Afrangi, meaning foreigners.
The Afrangi are the Egyptian people who compromised the Egyptian heritage to gain high positions and approval of the foreign invaders of Egypt. As a tool of foreign forces, like Arabs, the Afrangi rule and dominate the Baladi—the natives. The Afrangi are, like their foreign masters, arrogant, cruel, and vain. After foreign forces left Egypt, the Egyptian Afrangi continued their role as the righteous rulers.
[…]
Because of the passive nature of the Baladi Egyptians, many people invented theories about the identity of the Egyptians that have absolutely no scientific and/or historical basis whatsoever. The premise of their baseless assertions is by division and racial identification of the people of Egypt, based on their assumed religions. Some claim that the Islamized population of Egypt (about 90%) are Arab settlers from the Arab Peninsula. The Christian population (about 10%) are claimed as the true Egyptians, referred to as Copts, descendants of the Ancient Egyptians. Others claim that the Islamized population of Egypt is of a mixed blood of the Ancient Egyptians and of the Arabs who invaded Egypt in 640 CE. The Ancient Egyptian blood does not exist anymore.
In truth, the hundreds of Ancient Egyptian mummies from all ages, together with DNA testing as well as the numerous depicted figures in the Ancient Egyptian temples and tombs show that present-day Moslem Egyptians are the same race as their Ancient Egyptian ancestors.
The Unchanging Baladi—the torch-bearers of the Ancient Egyptian ancestors were cavalierly stripped of their nationality as explained next. […] (see link)
posted
Please show me these Black Baladi you speak of. I tried looking them up and saw a few Blacks but most of them were not Black looking at all.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
Not familiar with Baladi myself, where would someone like the poster above go to find black Baladi in Egypt? Do they get offended when you call them black? He doesn't seem entirely convinced they exist.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
I never said they don't exist. I'm asking him when did this mixture occur? or is he saying The AE were like that from the beginning with a minority Black element? or where they originally Black and became The Hybrids they are today?
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
I have the feeling that SMirk92 is looking for the modern population that resembles ancient Egyptians the most, hence his fixation on modern Nubians as well as Cushitic groups like the Beja. That's understandable, for we were all doing that 10-15 years ago, but one thing the aDNA scene has revealed over the past decade is that a lot of people in the distant past didn't necessarily look like anyone living today. Take dark-skinned, blue-eyed WHG like Cheddar Man for instance. Who in Europe today looks like a dead ringer for them?
Ancient Nile Valley populations might present the same problem for us. I don't know about Beja specifically, but Cushitic populations in the Horn appear to have picked up significant ancestry from both equatorial African (namely Omotic and Nilotic) and Eurasian sources in the last four thousand years, so they may not look exactly like the earliest proto-Afroasiatic speakers in the eastern Sahara >10 kya. The same could be said for modern Nubians. There's probably nobody in the Northeast African region today who is physically or genetically coterminous with the people who lived there several millennia ago.
Mind you, I wouldn't say looking for modern proxies for ancient populations is totally pointless. If you're going to make a live-action movie or documentary set in ancient Egypt, modern Upper Egyptians and Nubians probably would be a better fit than most. But you're never going to find a perfect match.
posted
Just about everyone in Egypt today is a varied mix of natives, non-Egyptians and people from outside the region.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
The question I ask is if we know The Greeks renamed Nubt Kom Ombo and it's still the name of the city today. Then why are Egyptologists using the Arabic name Naqada when the name change went straight from Nubt and was never Naqada?. If they are speaking about an Ancient period then why not use The Ancient name if they don't use the modern name?. It's simple they refuse to call it The Nubt era because they know that will force them to acknowledge that ''Nubia'' was always just a City in Egypt which happened to be The Oldest Pre-Dynastic City-State and not a racial catchphrase for Blacks or land South of Egypt(KMT).These people from Nubt populated all of Southern Egypt and founded Ta-Seti and It is for this very reason that there is so much controversy regarding The Qustul Incense Burner. The Nubts were the people of Qustul and Their present existence in Egypt as Nubians has caused Egyptologists to claim The Qustul people as foreign or ''A-GROUP''. How can The Qustul Incense Burner be an imported object from Egypt WHEN QUSTUL WAS IN EGYPT!??????. It is because The Nubians are the people of Qustul that they intentionally cause this confusion.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: [QB] The question I ask is if we know The Greeks renamed Nubt Kom Ombo and it's still the name of the city today. Then why are Egyptologists using the Arabic name Naqada when the name change went straight from Nubt and was never Naqada?.
please try to pay attention
there are two cities called Nubt
the Naqada site is not at the Nubt at Kom Ombo
the Naqada site is over 100 miles North of Kom Ombo in Qena at the other Nubt
this has been repeated many times
Posts: 43045 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: [QB] The question I ask is if we know The Greeks renamed Nubt Kom Ombo and it's still the name of the city today. Then why are Egyptologists using the Arabic name Naqada when the name change went straight from Nubt and was never Naqada?.
please try to pay attention
there are two cities called Nubt
the Naqada site is not at the Nubt at Kom Ombo
the Naqada site is over 100 miles North of Kom Ombo in Qena at the other Nubt
this has been repeated many times
I never denied that there were 2 Nubts. Both Nubts we’re apart of The Naqada Era. The term Naqada is confusing just call it The Nubt Era. You’re getting confused because Egyptologists have Made a distinction between The Nubt culture and The Qustul culture When The Nubts founded The Qustul culture. The people of Nubt(Naqada) and the people of Qustul WERE ALL ETHNICALLY THE SAME PEOPLE!.This is why Egyptologists have falsely classified The Qustul people as a foreign “A-Group” people because The Nubts were ethnically the same as the people of Qustul. They are trying to create an ethnic and racial distinction between The Nubt(Naqada) culture and The Qustul culture when no such distinction existed. It is also because of the present day existence of Nubians(Nubts) as an Indigenous Egyptian population that they created this non-existent “A-Group” Culture distinct from the rest of Egypt when The “A-Group” Nubts were ethnic Egyptians.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Please show me these Black Baladi you speak of. I tried looking them up and saw a few Blacks but most of them were not Black looking at all.
This is what kids in Egypt on average look like. These children visited the temple of Hatshepsut.
posted
They definitely don't represent what The AE looked like. Their relationship to The AE is no different than The Mestizo's relationship to The Mayans.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: They definitely don't represent what The AE looked like. Their relationship to The AE is no different than The Mestizo's relationship to The Mayans.
To my knowledge they looked no different from the statues and the murals. Everybody over there called me Rameses.
Posts: 22249 | From: Omni | Registered: Nov 2010
| IP: Logged |
posted
There are plenty of examples where modern Egyptians working to excavate/maintain tombs are the splitting image of the ancients. Sure, modern Egyptians don't speak the same language, practice the same culture or have the exact same look as an overall population as the ancients, but as Africans you still can find the same features as those in ancient times. There are still black Africans in modern Egypt and the features of the ancients are to be found in black African populations across Africa.
Posts: 8902 | Registered: May 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
The only present day Egyptians who existed during The Pharaonic age are The Nubians and The Beja who still live there. The Arabs are not even a question. The Copts didn't come into existence until The Ptolemaic Period. The Fellahin, Gurna and Baladi may have some Egyptian ancestry but they are no more Egyptian then a Mestizo is a Mayan. We can also identify certain Egyptians as Afar due to their grooming practices. Many people don't realize that many Egyptians were Nomadic herders themselves. all of those images of shirtless Egyptians with aprons and herding sticks are those same exact Afar and Somali people you see today. We can clearly identify them on those walls now can you do the same with The Copts? maybe a few but for the most part anybody with two eyes can see that they on average do not match the ancients. Even Count Constantine De Volney the worlds first Egyptologist stated that The Copts were not The Ancient Egyptians.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
In the Copts of Egypt, we do not find any of the characteristic features of the ancient Egyptian population. The Copts are the result of crossbreeding with all the nations that have successively dominated Egypt. It is wrong to seek in them the principal features of the old race" - Champollion the Younger.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
The only Egyptians that descend from the Ancients are Nubians/Beja? No, that isn't true. MOST Egyptians probably descend from the ancients. However there's a difference between the degrees people descend, how much morphological continuity there is, and finally how much a modern Egyptian descends from the populations within Egypt that were responsible for the dominant culture of Ancient Egypt. In heavily diverse areas, especially where race plays a major factor in daily life....people demand that those distinctions be VERY clear. But with Egypt (especially if its "blackness" is debated) this is not really allowed.
Copts are a mix of Lower Egyptians (who were appearance wise intermediate between Maghreb and European features) some Upper Egyptians, and foreigners. They began as a distinct group in the Roman era, so everything within Egypt before that needs to be considered. Some if not most of their ancestry dates to Ancient Egypt. But I couldn't honestly tell you if that ancestry was from the founding of Egypt or if it came along and settled/naturalized in Egypt during the thousands of years of Ancient Egypt's existence. Likely it's a combination of both honestly. Most people's ancestry isn't a monolith that doesn't interact with the world around it. Especially when we're talking about thousands of years.
Because Coptic as a language is mostly from the north, it'd probably be good to also consider the role of Lower Egypt. Though I imagine most Egyptians have SOME Upper Egyptian ancestry, Northerners are probably mostly northern, and morphologial research seems to suggest even many southerners took on more northern characteristics. Lower Egyptian morphology has expanded, while the initial southern phenotype (and possibly genotype) that was around when Egypt started, is no longer dominant. And while northern "Mediterraneans" were always part of Egypt...it seems like it was kind of in the same way Native Americans were always part of of the U.S or Aboriginals to Australia. You can't deny the presence but the dominant culture wasn't really from Lower Egypt.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
You have to understand that Grooming Practices were the main method The Ancient Egyptians used to identify themselves and foreign nations with. Those shirtless Apron wearing Egyptians depicted in Art are those same Afar herders you see today. The Beja are kin to The Afar and still live in Southern Egypt and were known as Medjay in Ancient Egypt. The Beja/Afar people along with The Nubians were apart of Pharaonic Egypt including Great Lakes Africans like The Tutsi. DNA has confirmed this so you can't place Copts in Pharaonic Egypt. The Copts are The Ptolemies who were a mixture of Egyptian and Greek.
Posts: 371 | From: Queens,NY | Registered: Feb 2020
| IP: Logged |
posted
This is 100% true, I did a thread about the population densities of Ancient Egypt V. Modern Egypt, The modern population of Alexandria alone dwarfs the two largest cities in the South, Aswan and Luxor by millions, they dont even compete with Cairo.
In Ancient Egypt, Ta-Set-to Qift, and Middle Egypt were the most dense populated areas.
quote:Originally posted by Ase: The only Egyptians that descend from the Ancients are Nubians/Beja? No, that isn't true. MOST Egyptians probably descend from the ancients. However there's a difference between the degrees people descend, how much morphological continuity there is, and finally how much a modern Egyptian descends from the populations within Egypt that were responsible for the dominant culture of Ancient Egypt. In heavily diverse areas, especially where race plays a major factor in daily life....people demand that those distinctions be VERY clear. But with Egypt (especially if its "blackness" is debated) this is not really allowed.
Copts are a mix of Lower Egyptians (who were appearance wise intermediate between Maghreb and European features) some Upper Egyptians, and foreigners. They began as a distinct group in the Roman era, so everything within Egypt before that needs to be considered. Some if not most of their ancestry dates to Ancient Egypt. But I couldn't honestly tell you if that ancestry was from the founding of Egypt or if it came along and settled/naturalized in Egypt during the thousands of years of Ancient Egypt's existence. Likely it's a combination of both honestly. Most people's ancestry isn't a monolith that doesn't interact with the world around it. Especially when we're talking about thousands of years.
Because Coptic as a language is mostly from the north, it'd probably be good to also consider the role of Lower Egypt. Though I imagine most Egyptians have SOME Upper Egyptian ancestry, Northerners are probably mostly northern, and morphologial research seems to suggest even many southerners took on more northern characteristics. Lower Egyptian morphology has expanded, while the initial southern phenotype (and possibly genotype) that was around when Egypt started, is no longer dominant. And while northern "Mediterraneans" were always part of Egypt...it seems like it was kind of in the same way Native Americans were always part of of the U.S or Aboriginals to Australia. You can't deny the presence but the dominant culture wasn't really from Lower Egypt.
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: You have to understand that Grooming Practices were the main method The Ancient Egyptians used to identify themselves and foreign nations with. Those shirtless Apron wearing Egyptians depicted in Art are those same Afar herders you see today. The Beja are kin to The Afar and still live in Southern Egypt and were known as Medjay in Ancient Egypt. The Beja/Afar people along with The Nubians were apart of Pharaonic Egypt including Great Lakes Africans like The Tutsi. DNA has confirmed this so you can't place Copts in Pharaonic Egypt. The Copts are The Ptolemies who were a mixture of Egyptian and Greek.
..."Coptic" as an identity is more Roman era, but their ancestors can be placed to Pharoaonic Egypt. And no, DNA has not confirmed a homogenous DNA profile that existed spatially and temporally through the dynastic period. As you said, Copts (like many people if not most people living in an area for thousands of years) are a mix of foreigners that came thousands of years ago AND Egyptians. Egypt is still part of the Copts.
Posts: 2508 | From: . | Registered: Nov 2011
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^^True, the Copt are decsendants of Ancient Egyptians and I would even venture to say their phenotype was represented in parts of Ancient Egypt especially the Delta and Middle Egypt, though they probably did mix and get lighter as time goes on.
Also people forget the Copts of today are only a tiny fraction of the Copts...
quote:Know that the land of Egypt when the Mussulmans entered it, was full of Christians, but divided amongst themselves in two sects, both as to race and religion.
The one part was made up of men about the court and public affairs, all Greek, from among the soldiers of Constantinople, the seat of government of Rum; their views as well as their religion, were all of them Melkite; and their number was above 300 000, all Greeks
The other portion was the whole people of Egypt, who were Qibt, and were of mixed descent; among whom one could not distinguish Qibt from Abbysinian, Nubian or Israelite; and they were all Jacobites. Some of them were writers in government offices, others were merchants and tradesmen, others were bishops and prsbyters and such like, others were tillers of the land in the country, while others were of the class of servants and domestics. But between these and the Melkite ruling population, marriages were not allowed, from mutual hatred of each other, often carried to murders on either side." The Sheikh andImam Taqi-ed-din El-Maqrizi of Cairo family from Baalbek, History of the Copts and of their Church.
-Al-Maqrizi
When the Muslims arrived in Egypt, there were still Copts who resembled Nubians and Ethiopians(Abyssinians)
Also I dont understandy why people think the Copts are all light skinned...most are dark brown and even resemble the Muslim Egyptians..
Posts: 8812 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by SMirk92: Please show me these Black Baladi you speak of. I tried looking them up and saw a few Blacks but most of them were not Black looking at all.
I've already shown you pictures of black Baladi in several threads, are you blind?!!
Here are more:
famous Baladi singer Sheikh Ahmad Al-Tuni
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26421 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
posted
Here are a couple of sources showing the difference between Nubians and Baladi.
Encyclopaedia Britannica, Macropaedia Vol. 8, 15th Ed. Ethnic composition: The population of the Nile Valley and the Delta (comprising about 99 percent of Egypt) forms a fairly homogenous group whose dominant physical characteristics are eh result of the admixture of the indigenous pre-Islamic Hamitic-Armenoid population with Arab stock. The peasant, or fellah, is less racially mixed than the town dweller. In the town—the northern Delta towns especially—the foreign invader, Persian, Roman, Greek, crusader, and Turk, has left behind a more heterogeneous mixture. The inhabitants of the middle Nile Valley up to Aswān, the Sa’īdī (Upper Egyptians), are of the same racial stock as the inhabitants of the Delta but have darker skin are slightly taller and have a sturdier build. Settled communities in Aswān muḥāfaẓah tend to be a mixture of Sa’īdī, long-settled nomads such as the Ja’āfirah and ‘Abābdah, and Nubian.
The Nubian, though having Arab blood, have preserved racial charactersitics that are non-Arab. They are tall and thin, with Caucasoid features, and are of a much darker colouring than the average Egyptian. They also differ in that their kinship structure goes beyond the lineage; they are divided into clans and broader segments, whereas among other Egyptians of the Valley and Lower Egypt known members of the lineage are the only ones recognized as kin.
http://www.hinduonnet.com/thehindu/2001/03/28/stories/05281349.htm Islam has perhaps not penetrated into the consciousness of the Upper Egyptians as deeply as it has in other parts of the world because it is still in some ways considered an alien import. The people in these parts are most definitely African in their physiognomy and culture. Traces of other races are noticeable in physical features and Arabic is, of course, the sole spoken language. But for all that the pride in being African is unmistakable. At a factory producing alabaster figurines for sale to tourists a Saidi (as the denizens of Upper Egypt are called) points to three phallic figures of different sizes. "This is Egyptian", he says pointing to the largest one and then at the middle-sized one, "that is Nubian". (The Nubians are the African people who live in the stretch between the southern Egyptian town of Aswan and Sudan). Then pointing to the smallest- sized he says with a smirk, "And that is Arab". Besides being proud of their Africanness, the people of Upper Egypt also appear to be stubbornly rural. Like the peasantry in large parts of India these people seem to be in deliberate resistance to sophistication and even to look on some of the mores of modern life as being beneath their dignity. They look well-fed but even those farmers who seem more prosperous than their brethren seem to look on modern conveniences as something not really relevant to their lives. TV antennae sprout from every house-top (and as always, Mr. Amitabh Bachhan is a topic of conversation).
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26421 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
I think Siwa Berbers are still a better example of indigenous lighter skin Egyptians. Egypt was gentrified in waves after a population bottleneck.
Posts: 1257 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014
| IP: Logged |
posted
^ Egypt itself is one large bottleneck that has been more or less isolated from the rest of Africa (unless you count the theory of Sub-Saharan influx during the Late to Post-Pharaonic periods) that has experienced "gentrification" in the form of Eurasian invasions. The Siwa are no different and in fact resemble many Berbers in the Maghreb who are of light so-called "mulatto" look due possibly to Eurasian influence.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26421 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
Printer-friendly view of this topic