Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
Besides the fact of knowing nothing about A3mw, Osirion's post shows the ensuing damage after someone deliberately cuts and mismatch pastes figures with captions all falsely relying on another's good reputation.
It's a disinformation tactic that works due to inattentiveness.
So that no one should mistake what I said with something someone purposely distorts as mine and to clarify any honest misunderstandings.
It's not only that the hairstyle is the same in Old Kingdom and New Kingdom as on the palette that allows for a Tjehenu most likely identity. They lack penis-stache and crossbands because they have been despoiled. Looking at some of the other Narmer artifacts the throwstick and pot glyphs (next to men of the this same hair style) is proof positive that they are [Tjehenu].
The other Narmer artifacts I alluded to are a label and a cylinder with either pot or throwstick and pot, proving enemies on them are positively ethnic Tjemehu. I posted them later as:
The pot and the throwstick w/pot glyphs positively identifies the enemies as Tjehenu. The label and the cylinder enemies in simplist reduction resemble the palette's bottom registers enemies. Parsimony suggests identity of similar characters across artifacts.
Notice the label enemy has the pot at his left and sprouts papyrus from his head, recalling Marshman of the palette. On the cylinder, below left of Narmer bopping three rows of enemies there are the throwstick and pot together with a lozenge.
Tjehenu may have been a major ethny in far north Egypt resisting southern political control but Ta Mehhu had other ethnic components as I postulated.
Ta Mehh is a place name not an ethnic name. It designates the northern/papyrus region of the Nile Delta. It is the word translated as Lower Egypt.
Anybody could've been living there. Apparently, folk always lived just south of the delta since the middle stone age. Many folk originating west of the delta and the Fayum settled near the delta. A smattering of folk migrated back and forth from the Levant to east of the delta for livestock fodder and trade but were never so much permanent settlers.
It's my take that the Narmer Palette shows all three of these major ethnies and maybe even one unguessed ethny.
They consider the side with the big circle as the front of the palette. On the other side and from top to bottom I see the enemies as originating [from]
* Sinai or Levant: (Breath-grasped-by-Falcon) * Fayum or immediately south of delta: (Grasped-by-the-Hair) * west of delta or west of Fayum: (Naked-Long-Haired-"Runners")
I don't hazard to guess from where the enemy all the way at the bottom of the front side originated.
Mind you, I have no definitive proof of any of that and they could all be originated from far north Nile dwellers going back to the stone ages. But other pieces of Dynasty 0 commemorative art do show the pot, or the throwstick and pot, near men who resemble the enemies at bottom of Narmer Palette.
In using the term 'originating' I mean at some point in past time their ancestors were from the listed places though inhabiting far north Egypt and thus being pre-unification "Lower Egyptians" (which is really an anachronism since there was no polity or state Lower Egypt before the unification).
I later explicitly tied the enemies' likenesses to an "old country" source while not denying any of them as being "pre-unification Lower Egyptians" which they apparently all were.
Rather than introduce figures and captions and misrepresent as my interpretations by saying "as per al~Takruri", why not just honestly leave my own captions in place?
"Ta Mehhu man" and Trampled-by-Bull ?Primarly eastern delta inhabitants/Egyptians of possible Sinai and/or Levant antecedents?
Smitten One and Serpopard Handlers. ?Far northern (Fayum to delta) and mid to south Egyptians descendents of neolithic Nile dwellers with drying western desert refugees and northbound Sudani settlers? [view with browser adjusted to 85% to get all three in line.]
Sprawled or Fleeing Ones ?Primarily western delta Egyptians of west of delta and western desert ancestry?
PLEASE PAY NO ATTENTION TO ANYBODY POSTING ANY OTHER SETS OF FIGURES&CAPTION CLAIMING "AS PER AL~TAKRURI"Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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posted
^^^^ this suggests that some predynastic Egyptians may have had Asian ancestry.
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
"Ta Mehhu man" and Trampled-by-Bull ?Primarly eastern delta inhabitants/Egyptians of possible Sinai and/or Levant antecedents?
It is prudent to note my assessment is bracketed by question marks. And particularly in this case there is good reason.
Note my very first comment on Levantine presence
A smattering of folk migrated back and forth from the Levant to east of the delta for livestock fodder and trade but were never so much permanent settlers.
This immediately tells fair and objective readers that any Levantine presence was not throughout the length of the Lower Nile Valley (i.e. 1st cataract to Old Cairo) but restricted only to the east side of the delta and by extension not any further south than el~Saff.
It also tells their number was sparse and using the area only for transhumance camping not for permanent settlement. Again, trade does not necessitate any kind of settlement beyond lodging quarters where business was contracted.
But, yes, as far as far north pre-dynastic culture there is plenty evidence of Levantine contribution to the Maadi culture which was absolutely replaced with Naqada culture well before the establishment of anything recognizeable as the Upper Egypt state which incorporated the far north into its polity.
That Levantines played at best, if any, a very minor small part in the peopling of anywhere in Egypt before the 6th dynasty is supported by total lack of physical remains of Levantine phenotype people.
Northern Egypt near the Mediterranean shows the same pattern- limb length data puts its peoples closer to tropically adapted Africans that cold climate Europeans
Part of the reasoning behind my assessment of the two men above is their straight haired beards and the slightly convex protuberance of the nose.
Many would remind me that those features fall within "African physical diversity" yet I woill remind them that those features are also and mostly stereotypes of Levantines and other Arabian plate peoples where they are much more common than among continental NE Africans.
Posts: 8179 | From: the Tekrur straddling Senegal & Mauritania | Registered: Dec 2011
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^ this suggests that some predynastic Egyptians may have had Asian ancestry.
Damnit - its called Hebrews!
These are Hebrews for crying out loud! Like Gypsies, they wandered all over the ancient world.
Posts: 4028 | From: NW USA | Registered: May 2005
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posted
^^ Damnit! It's called wishful thinking especially since no "Hebrews" even existed at that time. It's called jumping to conclusions based on nothing but wild conjecture!
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass: this suggests that some predynastic Egyptians may have had Asian ancestry.
Exactly what does? The facial features of the men whom Takruri posted. As if such features are not found among native Africans. More lyinass assumptions. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
To Ethiop and others with any remaining sense, Takruri's thread concerning my theory is HERE.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness this suggests that some predynastic Egyptians may have had Asian ancestry.
quote:Originally posted by the Djhooti:
Exactly what does?
the thing that suggests some predynastic Egyptians may have had Asian ancestry is this quote from alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by Takuler:
"Ta Mehhu man" and Trampled-by-Bull ?Primarly eastern delta inhabitants/Egyptians of possible Sinai and/or Levant antecedents?
quote:Originally posted by the Djhooti:
we are supposed to assume this woman with no background information posted is 100% African? stop playing Probably a Fulbe woman
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posted
Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective
Alexandra Rosa,1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1 Western European R1b-P25 lineages in Fulbe and Bijagós are best explained by recent European influence, at the time of the slave trade. A partial introduction through North African pastoral immigrants can not be rejected, where the 3–12% of R1b-P25 are due to the geographic proximity and the long reported contacts with Europe and Middle-East [33]. The European source seems nevertheless more likely: firstly, Y chromosome signatures of European presence have a reported great expression in the nearby Cape Verdians [38] and secondly, highly frequent North African haplogroups that would have been equally carried by the migrants (e.g. E3b2-M81) are absent in Guineans. The rare DYS439 allele 10 of a so-called E3b1-β cluster particularly widespread among Moroccan Arabs defines a contribution to the Guinean Fulbe and Bijagós from North West Africans who have crossed the Sahara. The hypothesis of much later European contribution is valid
Three Fulbe E3b1-M78 haplotypes (H155 and H156) were found to match Spanish haplotypes [42] and samples in Central Portugal, Macedonia, Romania and Poland (YHRD database [43]). Both profiles present the A7.1 allele 12, quite frequent in Equatorial Guinea [44].
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Tukuler
multidisciplinary Black Scholar
Member # 19944
posted
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Tukuler:
Is it the nasal profile again?
What's in a nose.
Three things
You have conflated the profiles that I filtered into different regional categories inattentively lumping my proposed east delta adjacent to Sinai far north pre-dynastic Egyptians with my proposed mostly central delta adjacent to Fayum far north pre-dynastic Egyptians and my proposed mostly west delta adjacent to Tjehenu-land far north pre-dynastic Egyptians. The latter two have either straight or concave noses not a mid nose convex protuberance. .
The convex nasal character of "Marshman" and Trampled-by-Bull is mid-nose not at the bridge of the nose as in your photos of Africans who are not at all Nile Valley or NE Africans. .
You failed to recognize my caveat that though the combination of convex nose and straight haired beard may be found in Africa they are much more frequently, arbitrarily, and widely found in Levant and Arabian plate peoples to the point of being stereotypical.
BTW sure wish you'd post your excellent Tjehenu hypothesis here too. It supports the fact that though Maadi culture is infused with "SW Asia" culture it is not in the least due to any mass migration of such people. Their presence, though felt where itinerants camped or lodged, was miniscule in number and fluctulant.
Earlier I hesitated to hazard a guess as to Trampled-by-Bull's ethnic ties as he is the most removed in profile from all the others on the palette. The fact that he is associated with a fortified site bears further interpretation.
I'll try to dig up a map showing Merimda, Maadi and the other delta sites we both mention. Pending further digs, so far, archaeology has nothing on pre-dynastic middle and north delta, only the south delta and Fayum in regards to skeletons or skulls.
Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to post to what may be the last hurrah of serious on topic Egyptology thread on a site called EgyptSearch which has finally and permanently devolved into what can more truthfully be renamed Race Central.
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Ethiop and others with any remaining sense, Takruri's thread concerning my theory is HERE.
I was hoping there would be more specific info pointing directly to Tjehenu and/or other Eastern Saharan peoples. I don't think your data is specific enough to be able to distinguish whether the Lower Egyptian complexes you mention were simply the product of semi-nomadic Western Desert Neolithic immigrants (like [nearly] all ancestors of the Dynastic Egyptians) or Libyans proper.
People from the Western Desert came pouring in the Valley and Delta from the Neolithic until proto-dynastic times. However, the late proto-dynastic immigrants would have been grossly no different, ethnically speaking, from the Western Desert folk that preceded them, in the aforementioned time span.
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^ What exactly do you mean by "Libyans proper". From what I understand ancient Libya did not just encompass modern day Libya but large sections of Egypt's Western desert. The Egyptian Western desert, ancient (eastern) Libya, and the Eastern Sahara in general (at least the sections west of the Nile) were all the same region. You're right that Western desert people had impact on all areas of Egypt not just the north, but southern Egyptian culture seems to have greater ties with the Sudanese neolithic than the Delta which shows ties to the Oases cultures, specifically the Faiyum. Again, my point was not to say that they were Tjehenu per say but there are obviously strong ties to them and other peoples of northwest Egypt.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by the lyinass worm: the thing that suggests some predynastic Egyptians may have had Asian ancestry is this quote from alTakruri:
quote:Originally posted by Takuler: "Ta Mehhu man" and Trampled-by-Bull? Primarly eastern delta inhabitants/Egyptians of possible Sinai and/or Levant antecedents?
If you hadn't noticed, Takruri put question marks indicating that they are more like questions than statements. So unlike YOU he merely questions the possibility rather than making ass-umptions which is your habit. Again, there is no actual substantial evidence to suggest Asian ancestry, only mere speculations.
quote: we are supposed to assume this woman with no background information posted is 100% African? stop playing. Probably a Fulbe woman.
And we (rather YOU) are suppose to assume the woman is not 100% African?! Based on what?.. Her aquiline nose? LOL
Yes the woman is Fulbe, but how many times must we tell you that nose shape is no indication of ancestry whether native or foreign, lying worm!
quote:Y-chromosomal diversity in the population of Guinea-Bissau: a multiethnic perspective
Alexandra Rosa,1,2 Carolina Ornelas,1,2 Mark A Jobling,3 António Brehm,2 and Richard Villems1 Western European R1b-P25 lineages in Fulbe and Bijagós are best explained by recent European influence, at the time of the slave trade. A partial introduction through North African pastoral immigrants can not be rejected, where the 3–12% of R1b-P25 are due to the geographic proximity and the long reported contacts with Europe and Middle-East [33]. The European source seems nevertheless more likely: firstly, Y chromosome signatures of European presence have a reported great expression in the nearby Cape Verdians [38] and secondly, highly frequent North African haplogroups that would have been equally carried by the migrants (e.g. E3b2-M81) are absent in Guineans. The rare DYS439 allele 10 of a so-called E3b1-β cluster particularly widespread among Moroccan Arabs defines a contribution to the Guinean Fulbe and Bijagós from North West Africans who have crossed the Sahara. The hypothesis of much later European contribution is valid
Three Fulbe E3b1-M78 haplotypes (H155 and H156) were found to match Spanish haplotypes [42] and samples in Central Portugal, Macedonia, Romania and Poland (YHRD database [43]). Both profiles present the A7.1 allele 12, quite frequent in Equatorial Guinea [44].
1st of all, the vast majority of Fulbe do NOT carry E3b but E3a as in the Y hg typical of most West Africans in general.
2nd of all, the study above discusses the Fulbe of Guinea-Bissau along the Atlantic coast. These particular Fulbe along with other coastal West Africans display the stereotypical broad noses and facial form unlike the aquiline nose and narrow facial form of inland Fulbe of the Sahel and Sahara (which the woman in the pic is from)! Which goes back to the point that you can't use nose shape or facial form to tell ancestry! We told your lyingass this many times before but apparently you conveniently 'forgot'. As that study explains, the few Fulbe who carry European lineages (like other African groups who do) inherited it from European colonial contact.
3rd of all, the so-called Spanish E3b (M78) is derived from Africa in the first place! Meaning that these Spaniards are the ones who are mixed as well. Yet no doubt if one posted a picture of a 'Mediterranean' Spaniard, you would not question his or her background as 100% European, not would you lying worm??
Lastly, your ignorant ass had never even heard of the Fulbe people until WE in this forum told you about them when you first showed up in this forum and pretended to play a 'West African' and didn't know who they were!
YOU stop playing, lying ass b|tch! LOLPosts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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You have conflated the profiles that I filtered into different regional categories inattentively lumping my proposed east delta adjacent to Sinai far north pre-dynastic Egyptians with my proposed mostly central delta adjacent to Fayum far north pre-dynastic Egyptians and my proposed mostly west delta adjacent to Tjehenu-land far north pre-dynastic Egyptians. The latter two have either straight or concave noses not a mid nose convex protuberance. .
The convex nasal character of "Marshman" and Trampled-by-Bull is mid-nose not at the bridge of the nose as in your photos of Africans who are not at all Nile Valley or NE Africans. .
You failed to recognize my caveat that though the combination of convex nose and straight haired beard may be found in Africa they are much more frequently, arbitrarily, and widely found in Levant and Arabian plate peoples to the point of being stereotypical.
BTW sure wish you'd post your excellent Tjehenu hypothesis here too. It supports the fact that though Maadi culture is infused with "SW Asia" culture it is not in the least due to any mass migration of such people. Their presence, though felt where itinerants camped or lodged, was miniscule in number and fluctulant.
Earlier I hesitated to hazard a guess as to Trampled-by-Bull's ethnic ties as he is the most removed in profile from all the others on the palette. The fact that he is associated with a fortified site bears further interpretation.
I'll try to dig up a map showing Merimda, Maadi and the other delta sites we both mention. Pending further digs, so far, archaeology has nothing on pre-dynastic middle and north delta, only the south delta and Fayum in regards to skeletons or skulls.
Thanks for taking time out of your busy schedule to post to what may be the last hurrah of serious on topic Egyptology thread on a site called EgyptSearch which has finally and permanently devolved into what can more truthfully be renamed Race Central.
I understand what you're saying Takruri, and my point wasn't to befuddle yours. You seem to go very much into detail about the nasal profiles and such. To me it doesn't matter because nasal features vary within populations anyway. Unless the nasal features were intended to be taken as an ethnic stereotype, I don't see the significance.
Also, you assume that certain groups are eastern Delta folk and in turn may originate in the Sinai and Levant, but where is the proof of this? Is there anything in the palette that gives indication as to what part of the Delta the scene takes place? Also, as I stated in your thread, the earliest centers of Delta culture were in the west, specifically the southwest. In fact the major centers of Ta Mehu (Lower Egypt) were the 7 nomes all situated in the west and the first 2 just south of the delta.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ What exactly do you mean by "Libyans proper". From what I understand ancient Libya did not just encompass modern day Libya but large sections of Egypt's Western desert. The Egyptian Western desert, ancient (eastern) Libya, and the Eastern Sahara in general (at least the sections west of the Nile) were all the same region. You're right that Western desert people had impact on all areas of Egypt not just the north, but southern Egyptian culture seems to have greater ties with the Sudanese neolithic than the Delta which shows ties to the Oases cultures, specifically the Faiyum. Again, my point was not to say that they were Tjehenu per say but there are obviously strong ties to them and other peoples of northwest Egypt.
Libyans = not a geographical term. IMO, the strongest case for actual Libyans in Egypt would be the foreign (relative to earlier patterns) looking types of the 1st dynasty royal tombs, and some remains in early dynastic Egypt.
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness: ^^^^ this suggests that some predynastic Egyptians may have had Asian ancestry.
Damnit - its called Hebrews!
These are Hebrews for crying out loud! Like Gypsies, they wandered all over the ancient world.
what do you mean by "Hebrews". If by that word you are insinuating "Jews" then there is no historical evidence to support such a people historically.
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: Libyans = not a geographical term. IMO, the strongest case for actual Libyans in Egypt would be the foreign (relative to earlier patterns) looking types of the 1st dynasty royal tombs, and some remains in early dynastic Egypt.
What do you mean "foreign looking types" and from where exactly?
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:The frequency of misclassification is greater in the early dynastic periods (Archaic, Ok and MK) than in any of the Predynastic groups. This could occur due to either an increase in morphological variation as a result of massive population increase or due to the presence of individuals from other (potentially non-Egyptian or non-Nile Valley) populations. Although population increase did occur of these periods, the data presented here suggests that some of the increase in variance was due to the immigration of some individuals. Table 3 shows that the Archaic group is relatively heterogeneous and has morphological overlapping with all the Predynastic samples. The pattern seen may be the result of career migration of individuals and their descendants slowly migrating into the Nile Valley from Neighboring regions and then mixing and interbreeding with the indigenous population. The actual crania within the archaic sample thus appear to include individuals from the preceding groups together with the inclusion of new (larger, more robust, broad-faced) people from elsewhere.
[.....]
It has been shown that migrations of certain segment of a population can be recognized within the archaeological record. The form of migration, following the definitions of Tilly (1978) and Anthony (1990), may not be certain, but it is likely that only long-distance movements of peoples will involve the movement of reasonably discrete morphological entities that can be recognized and separated through craniometric analysis. Thus, it is likely that the migration demonstrated here was long-distance in nature, being either along the Nile River into Egypt, or from the desert into the Nile Valley itself. The migration diagnosed by this study, therefore, is probably of the career form, through the development of trading partners from neighboring regions by the indigenous Egyptian population over the later Predynastic period. These trading relationships may have been associated with the exchange of marriage partners and thus of gene flow between neighboring regions and the Egyptian Nile Valley[/i]
Quotes and images taken from:
Exploring Migration and Population Boundaries in Ancient Egypt: A Craniometric Case Study (2002) -Sonia Zakrzewski
with the inclusion of new (larger, more robust, broad-faced) people from elsewhere.
^This description sounds to me like Prehistoric (Eastern) Saharan people. Not folks from the Western Desert, because they generally looked like Upper Egyptians and Nubians, because the majority of the Dynastic Egypto-Nubians hail from the Western Desert, and hence, their presence wouldn't cause anomalies in Sonia's factor analysis.
Some of the (Eastern) Saharan people (e.g., Hassi el Abiod, Asselar?, the people of Uan Muhuggiag), retained very much the robust appearance that was already dissipating along the Nile after Palaeolithic/Mesolithic times, though I'm in no way implying that they all looked the same, other than sharing their late stage robustness, relative to the contemporary gracializing Nile Valley peoples.
Uan Muhuggiag, the site of the black mummified boy, to the far left:
quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Damn ausar, Where are these people coming from?
cute pictures, but I prefer scholarship backed by credible research. Heck, I can take a picture off flickr and tell you its martians, doesn't make it factual.
This one talks about how there is NO archeological evidence to support anything in the bible, a Israel or a historical jewish people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxgUMOCUK4A
The story of some "chosen" Jewish people is a lie my friend. You have to wrap your mind around that, it is what it is. I do believe the prophets that the stories in the Bible and Quran are based on did exist. however, I do not believe their names were really David, Solomon, Amos, etc. I believe these stories are based off of ancient kings, but they were not in some fictitious place called Israel. I also do not believe a Jewish people came into being until well after the fact.
The story of some little Hebrew kid who defeated some massive giant with a sling shot and then becomes a king i.e. David, that story is a corruption of the Ancient Egyptian story which is very close minus the being a king of a fake kingdom. It was taken from a Egyptian story, which tells the story of a Egyptian man who left Egypt, and found his way to Canaan, and lo and behold he fought some massive guy and defeated him, blah blah blah. I can not remember his name right now, its in a book I have. When I have time, I will dig his name up for you. Also, the Jews are pretty much white now. They claim their father were these dark semetic people. Not African dark but olive skinned or so they claim. Yet, one of their kings i.e. Solomon describes himself as a African i.e.Song of Solomon 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV) 5I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.
6Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.
Think about the wording here "the sun has looked upon me" in some translations it says "the sun has burned me". Whom else was described as being burned by the sun? Ethiopians, and when you look at the break down of the word Ethiop it means exactly that, i.e. burned face as in burned by the sun. By ethiopians I mean in the strict ancient greek sense i.e. all black africans.
Ask yourself why Prophet Amos was described as being a herdsman (symbol is a flail), a Shepard (symbol is a crook) and a cultivator of the sycamore fig (symbol of the Neter Hathor). We see a lot of this same symbology through out the bible.
These people have played a game with history, by taking African history and inserting themselves. Also look at the name Zion, there was a city in ancient egypt with a simliar name. Check out a book called the Hebrew Prophets of Egypt by Ahmed Osman, great book.
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^ Please let's not turn this into another Jewish/Hebrew people thread! We are strictly dealing with the Narmer Palette and who the people depicted thereon may be. There were no Hebrew peoples let alone their Jewish descendents during the time of the palette, so enough.
By the way, it a known FACT that much of Israelite priesthood and esoteric knowledge come from Egypt and is acknowledged as such in the Bible.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:The frequency of misclassification is greater in the early dynastic periods (Archaic, Ok and MK) than in any of the Predynastic groups. This could occur due to either an increase in morphological variation as a result of massive population increase or due to the presence of individuals from other (potentially non-Egyptian or non-Nile Valley) populations. Although population increase did occur of these periods, the data presented here suggests that some of the increase in variance was due to the immigration of some individuals. Table 3 shows that the Archaic group is relatively heterogeneous and has morphological overlapping with all the Predynastic samples. The pattern seen may be the result of career migration of individuals and their descendants slowly migrating into the Nile Valley from Neighboring regions and then mixing and interbreeding with the indigenous population. The actual crania within the archaic sample thus appear to include individuals from the preceding groups together with the inclusion of new (larger, more robust, broad-faced) people from elsewhere.
[.....]
It has been shown that migrations of certain segment of a population can be recognized within the archaeological record. The form of migration, following the definitions of Tilly (1978) and Anthony (1990), may not be certain, but it is likely that only long-distance movements of peoples will involve the movement of reasonably discrete morphological entities that can be recognized and separated through craniometric analysis. Thus, it is likely that the migration demonstrated here was long-distance in nature, being either along the Nile River into Egypt, or from the desert into the Nile Valley itself. The migration diagnosed by this study, therefore, is probably of the career form, through the development of trading partners from neighboring regions by the indigenous Egyptian population over the later Predynastic period. These trading relationships may have been associated with the exchange of marriage partners and thus of gene flow between neighboring regions and the Egyptian Nile Valley[/i]
Quotes and images taken from:
Exploring Migration and Population Boundaries in Ancient Egypt: A Craniometric Case Study (2002) -Sonia Zakrzewski
with the inclusion of new (larger, more robust, broad-faced) people from elsewhere.
^This description sounds to me like Prehistoric (Eastern) Saharan people. Not folks from the Western Desert, because they generally looked like Upper Egyptians and Nubians, because the majority of the Dynastic Egypto-Nubians hail from the Western Desert, and hence, their presence wouldn't cause anomalies in Sonia's factor analysis.
There seems to be some confusion with the terms 'Eastern Sahara' perhaps on my part. By 'Eastern Sahara' do you mean the Eastern Desert? i.e. The desert east of the Nile??!
If so, then it makes much more sense. Though what exactly is known of the peoples of the Eastern Desert at this time, specifically the northern areas of the Eastern Desert? We know that studies have been conducted in the southern areas of the eastern desert, but I don't have much info on the northern areas.
As to the phenotypic variation of the protodynastic period, this reminds me of the old Petrie claim of '7 races' present. Petrie . . . published a study of the races of Egypt in the Pre-Dynastic and Proto-Dynastic periods working only on portrayals of them. Apart from the steatopygian race, he distinguishes six separate types: an aquiline type representative of a whiteskinned Libyan race; a 'plaited beard' type belonging to an invading race coming perhaps from the shores of the Red Sea, a 'sharp-nosed' type almost certainly from the Arabian Desert: a 'tilted-nose' type from Middle Egypt; a 'jutting beard' type from Lower Egypt; and a 'narrow-nose' type from Upper Egypt. Going on the images, there would thus have been seven different racial types in Egypt during the epochs we are considering. In the pages which follow we shall see that study of the skeletons seems to provide little authority for these conclusions. (Diop, Origins)
Of course all the skeletons showed the same tropical adapted traits of course. But there is still question as to which area around the Nile varying groups came from.
quote:Some of the (Eastern) Saharan people (e.g., Hassi el Abiod, Asselar?, the people of Uan Muhuggiag), retained very much the robust appearance that was already dissipating along the Nile after Palaeolithic/Mesolithic times, though I'm in no way implying that they all looked the same, other than sharing their late stage robustness, relative to the contemporary gracializing Nile Valley peoples.
Uan Muhuggiag, the site of the black mummified boy, to the far left:
quote:Originally posted by Kalonji:
Interestingly, you have some scholars who purport a Western desert origin for the Badarians who do in fact show broader features than the proceeding Naqadans who have narrower features. But most of these Western desert cultures are those along the central and southern areas of the Western desert. What about the northern areas, particularly around the coast??
Here is a corresponding map showing areas of the Western Desert known by Egyptians.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:There seems to be some confusion with the terms 'Eastern Sahara' perhaps on my part. By 'Eastern Sahara' do you mean the Eastern Desert? i.e. The desert east of the Nile??!
I think of the Eastern Sahara as the part of the Sahara that lies West of Egypt's Western Desert, but I may be stretching it a bit, using that definition, because I can't find it being used in a manner that excludes the Western Desert. So it appears it refers to the deserts found on both sides of the Nile Valley. In other words, it is simply the Eastern portion of the Sahara.
The regions I was referring to, when I said that, are the regions west of the Egyptian oases; the regions not traditionally included as part of Ancient Egypt, which could nevertheless still be considered a part of 'Kemet', throughout Dynastic Egypt's time periods.
quote:Interestingly, you have some scholars who purport a Western desert origin for the Badarians who do in fact show broader features than the proceeding Naqadans who have narrower features.
Yes, the Badarians show a mosaic of traits, most of them fully overlapping with Ancient Nubians, though some not, undoubtedly because of indigenous evolution. In contrast to Western Saharan peoples, the newcomers Sonia and Keita detected, were, despite their relatively broader faces, not primarily overlapping with Nubians. They had longer vaults, and presumably shorter neuro craniums, which contributes to their placement outside of the Nubian pattern, and a bit more towards modern Northern Africans.
I say ''a bit more'', because they don't really group with the Giza E-series either. Yes, Keita analysis showed that the 'foreign' elements caused a more substantial agreement with his Maghrebian sample, but the amount of his variables were limited. None of the ''archaic Egypt'' craniums grouped with the E-series in Sonia's analysis.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Please let's not turn this into another Jewish/Hebrew people thread! We are strictly dealing with the Narmer Palette and who the people depicted thereon may be. There were no Hebrew peoples let alone their Jewish descendents during the time of the palette, so enough.
By the way, it a known FACT that much of Israelite priesthood and esoteric knowledge come from Egypt and is acknowledged as such in the Bible.
once again, inserting yourself in conversations you don't seem to understand. He said the people in the plate were Hebrews, I disputed that statement of the people in the Namar Plate being Hebrews by the simple fact the "Jewish" story is a myth. The same way someone else brought up the idea that some people in the plate may be Lybians and that was disputed as well. You really make yourself look foolish when you constantly speak on topics you have no grasp on.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Please let's not turn this into another Jewish/Hebrew people thread! We are strictly dealing with the Narmer Palette and who the people depicted thereon may be. There were no Hebrew peoples let alone their Jewish descendents during the time of the palette, so enough.
By the way, it a known FACT that much of Israelite priesthood and esoteric knowledge come from Egypt and is acknowledged as such in the Bible.
once again, inserting yourself in conversations you don't seem to understand. He said the people in the plate were Hebrews, I disputed that statement of the people in the Namar Plate being Hebrews by the simple fact the "Jewish" story is a myth. The same way someone else brought up the idea that some people in the plate may be Lybians and that was disputed as well. You really make yourself look foolish when you constantly speak on topics you have no grasp on.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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posted
^ I seem to have a better grasp than YOU! First off, again I never said the people on the palette were Libyans per say but that they have connections to them. Second, perhaps you need to stick to esoteric stuff instead of history as you fail in passing yourself off as an expert on the latter. Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: I think of the Eastern Sahara as the part of the Sahara that lies West of Egypt's Western Desert, but I may be stretching it a bit, using that definition, because I can't find it being used in a manner that excludes the Western Desert. So it appears it refers to the deserts found on both sides of the Nile Valley. In other words, it is simply the Eastern portion of the Sahara.
Therein lies the confusion. The Sahara desert stretches from the Atlantic to the Read Sea. When someone says 'Eastern Sahara' I usually take that to mean the deserts of Egypt (including the Western desert) as well as the deserts of Sudan.
quote:The regions I was referring to, when I said that, are the regions west of the Egyptian oases; the regions not traditionally included as part of Ancient Egypt, which could nevertheless still be considered a part of 'Kemet', throughout Dynastic Egypt's time periods.
I see, but the period I'm dealing with specifically is predynastic times or proto-dynastic times in the least.
quote:Yes, the Badarians show a mosaic of traits, most of them fully overlapping with Ancient Nubians, though some not, undoubtedly because of indigenous evolution. In contrast to Western Saharan peoples, the newcomers Sonia and Keita detected, were, despite their relatively broader faces, not primarily overlapping with Nubians. They had longer vaults, and presumably shorter neuro craniums, which contributes to their placement outside of the Nubian pattern, and a bit more towards modern Northern Africans.
In other words their phenotypic patterns are no different from today's Saharan Berbers who display the same features. But typological variation and micro-evolution does complicate things.
quote:I say ''a bit more'', because they don't really group with the Giza E-series either. Yes, Keita analysis showed that the 'foreign' elements caused a more substantial agreement with his Maghrebian sample, but the amount of his variables were limited. None of the ''archaic Egypt'' craniums grouped with the E-series in Sonia's analysis.
Interesting. This brings into the question the use of a 'standard' or stereotype for Egyptians in the first place.
Posts: 26286 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ I seem to have a better grasp than YOU! First off, again I never said the people on the palette were Libyans per say but that they have connections to them. Second, perhaps you need to stick to esoteric stuff instead of history as you fail in passing yourself off as an expert on the latter.
*chuckle*
Riiiight... I have not stated my opinion in this thread concerning history, but the opinions of Professors on the subject. Lets get something straight, you seem to parrot what you read on forums and what little knowledge you think you posses via Google searches.
I on the other hand read profusely. You will be hard pressed to find any post from me, where I state something to do with history, and I do not point someone in the direction of some book they can read to further their understanding of the subject matter. While you on the other hand, you prattle on and on with little to nothing to back up your sophomoric claims. So your assertion about my lack of knowledge concerning history, I will take as a emotional outburst, more so than anything to do with reality.
As for you and the Libyan statement, I am not sure who said it. I may not have been referring to your post specifically. I didn't bother to see who said it, I was just using it as an example. I wasn't trying to say the statement was right or wrong. Get your emotions under control old boy.
Posts: 1296 | From: the planet | Registered: May 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Swenet: [QUOTE][qb]Yes, the Badarians show a mosaic of traits, most of them fully overlapping with Ancient Nubians, though some not, undoubtedly because of indigenous evolution. In contrast to Western Saharan peoples, the newcomers Sonia and Keita detected, were, despite their relatively broader faces, not primarily overlapping with Nubians. They had longer vaults, and presumably shorter neuro craniums, which contributes to their placement outside of the Nubian pattern, and a bit more towards modern Northern Africans.
In other words their phenotypic patterns are no different from today's Saharan Berbers who display the same features. But typological variation and micro-evolution does complicate things.
Yes it does complicate things. That these people had a phenotypical pattern of their own, that was mostly unlike lower Latitude Africans, explains how Egyptians could look like Nubians from the start, and then diverge away from them, in Naqada II, III and Dynastic periods, yet still have the very African STR profile seen in the much later Amarna mummies. I wouldn’t go as far as comparing them to modern day Saharan Berbers, because their differentiation was mostly caused by Eurasian admixture, not so much local adaptation.
I was wrong though about my initial assumption that most Western Desert peoples looked like Nubians, and that the ‘foreign elements’ thus would had to have come from more Westerly locations. I was saying that out of knowing the phenotype of Gebel Ramlah, Nabta Playa and dynastic Saharan remains, as well as other indicators, such as the fact that the (late) Predynastic Western Desert immigration to the Nubian Nile didn’t really change their phenotype to anything that wasn’t already there. However, all those sites are at sub-1st cataract latitude, not above it, and we already know that the Mesolithic populations that lived on the North African Mediterranean coast already looked different from all contemporary Middle Nile populations, so it’s not unthinkable that the Egyptian Western Desert folk, and more specifically, the Lower Egyptian Western Desert folk, had a different phenotypical composition than Western Desert folks further South.
I find it rather odd, but what do you think about Pinhasi’s contention that the various Mediterranean looking Saharan elements evolved from separate, local archaic Humans?
Posts: 8785 | From: Discovery Channel's Mythbusters | Registered: Dec 2009
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You are on the right track about nose shape not being a good indicator of monophyletic heritage, but a few things stand out about your post; you wrote:
These particular Fulbe along with other coastal West Africans display the stereotypical broad noses and facial form unlike the aquiline nose and narrow facial form of inland Fulbe of the Sahel and Sahara - Djehuti
What is it based on?
You go onto note:
As that study explains, the few Fulbe who carry European lineages (like other African groups who do) inherited it from European colonial contact.
One should not be too quick to dismiss R1 markers among fula communities as suggestive of "European ancestry". Fula samples have been known to carry R1 markers that are by and large quite distinct from those found in European samples. Consider for example, Rosa et al.'s (2007) test for R1b did not go too deep into downstream mutations, beyond the P25 mutation.
You also wrote:
3rd of all, the so-called Spanish E3b (M78) is derived from Africa in the first place! Meaning that these Spaniards are the ones who are mixed as well. Yet no doubt if one posted a picture of a 'Mediterranean' Spaniard, you would not question his or her background as 100% European, not would you lying worm??
Your point about Spanish E3b chromosomes being indicative of recent African ancestry is reasonable enough. Indeed, as far as key unique event polymorphisms are concerned, Rosa et al.'s sequences did not go beyond M78. Microsatellite repeats themselves cannot definitively ascertain monophyly, particularly within a haplogroup [where prospects for homoplasy are considerably high]; there are of course, occasional situations wherein co-occurrence of repeats are rare enough in incidence, that they may elicit monophyly.
Posts: 7516 | From: Somewhere on Earth | Registered: Jan 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mike111: ^Damn ausar, Where are these people coming from?
cute pictures, but I prefer scholarship backed by credible research. Heck, I can take a picture off flickr and tell you its martians, doesn't make it factual.
This one talks about how there is NO archeological evidence to support anything in the bible, a Israel or a historical jewish people http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxgUMOCUK4A
The story of some "chosen" Jewish people is a lie my friend. You have to wrap your mind around that, it is what it is. I do believe the prophets that the stories in the Bible and Quran are based on did exist. however, I do not believe their names were really David, Solomon, Amos, etc. I believe these stories are based off of ancient kings, but they were not in some fictitious place called Israel. I also do not believe a Jewish people came into being until well after the fact.
The story of some little Hebrew kid who defeated some massive giant with a sling shot and then becomes a king i.e. David, that story is a corruption of the Ancient Egyptian story which is very close minus the being a king of a fake kingdom. It was taken from a Egyptian story, which tells the story of a Egyptian man who left Egypt, and found his way to Canaan, and lo and behold he fought some massive guy and defeated him, blah blah blah. I can not remember his name right now, its in a book I have. When I have time, I will dig his name up for you. Also, the Jews are pretty much white now. They claim their father were these dark semetic people. Not African dark but olive skinned or so they claim. Yet, one of their kings i.e. Solomon describes himself as a African i.e.Song of Solomon 1:5-6 King James Version (KJV) 5I am black, but comely, O ye daughters of Jerusalem, as the tents of Kedar, as the curtains of Solomon.
6Look not upon me, because I am black, because the sun hath looked upon me: my mother's children were angry with me; they made me the keeper of the vineyards; but mine own vineyard have I not kept.
Think about the wording here "the sun has looked upon me" in some translations it says "the sun has burned me". Whom else was described as being burned by the sun? Ethiopians, and when you look at the break down of the word Ethiop it means exactly that, i.e. burned face as in burned by the sun. By ethiopians I mean in the strict ancient greek sense i.e. all black africans.
Ask yourself why Prophet Amos was described as being a herdsman (symbol is a flail), a Shepard (symbol is a crook) and a cultivator of the sycamore fig (symbol of the Neter Hathor). We see a lot of this same symbology through out the bible.
These people have played a game with history, by taking African history and inserting themselves. Also look at the name Zion, there was a city in ancient egypt with a simliar name. Check out a book called the Hebrew Prophets of Egypt by Ahmed Osman, great book.
I found the name of the egyptian manuscript that seems to tell the same story as the tell of David and Goliath. It was called "The Tale of Sinuhe"
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What exactly do you mean by "Libyans proper". From what I understand ancient Libya did not just encompass modern day Libya but large sections of Egypt's Western desert. The Egyptian Western desert, ancient (eastern) Libya, and the Eastern Sahara in general (at least the sections west of the Nile) were all the same region. You're right that Western desert people had impact on all areas of Egypt not just the north, but southern Egyptian culture seems to have greater ties with the Sudanese neolithic than the Delta which shows ties to the Oases cultures, specifically the Faiyum. Again, my point was not to say that they were Tjehenu per say but there are obviously strong ties to them and other peoples of northwest Egypt.
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