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It is interesting to compare some artworks made by Egyptians depicting Kushites and artwork that the Kushites made of themselves. In the pictures they many times have different roles, in Egyptian artwork they can be prisoners or bringing tribute. In Kushite representations they can be kings and queens.
One can also wonder about the different facial features of some of the Egyptian pictures and the Kushite ones. Do some of the Egyptian artwork portray more southern peoples?
Of course the nature of the depictions could also vary over time.
Here is just a couple of examples, first the Kushite Pharaohs Taharqa and Tantamani (25th dynasty)
Then a prisoner, and some Kushites bringing tributes (from the 18th and 19th dynasty)
Ibis Member # 23674
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This is a classic one. It shows a Kushite queen, next to Horus' humanoid Son Imsety. He can be seen as a representative of an Egyptian man with this in mind. I wish we had more Kushite depictions of the Egyptians, but it seems a lot was lost over time.
Archeopteryx Member # 23193
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In 2003, at Dukki Gel, north of Kerma, statues of five Kushite kings were excavated. They can now be seen in the Kerma museum
Statues of various rulers of the late 25th Dynasty–early Napatan period: Tantamani, Taharqa (rear), Senkamanisken, again Tantamani (rear), Aspelta, Anlamani, again Senkamanisken. Kerma Museum (from Wikipedia)
A reconstruction from the Louvre
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Relief of kushite Prince Arikankharer slaying his enemies
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Head of a man from the Meroitic period, 2nd-3rd century AD
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Kushite relief of the goddess Maat
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Tomb of Tantamani, 25th Dynasty
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Pharaoh Taharqa offering wine jars to the falcon god Hemen
Archeopteryx Member # 23193
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Altar with the picture of queen Amanitore. On the other sides of the altar one can se king Natakamani and two goddesses. From the temple at Naga, now in Berlin
quote: The block of sandstone takes on the architecture of a chapel with slightly sloping walls, round bar and cove and a final cornice. The altar served as a base for the barque of the gods or the cult image of the deity. Egyptian goddesses are depicted on two opposite sides, raising the hieroglyph for 'heaven' crowned with a wreath of stars above their heads. The builder of the temple, King Natakamani and the Kandake Amanitore are shown in the same posture on the other two sides. -- around AD 1-25 Sandstone Wad Ban Naga (Sudan)
Pylons depicting King Natakamani and Queen Amanitore smiting enemies. Apademak Temple in Naqa
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Statue of Natakamani
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Portrait of Anlamani, Kerma Museum
Statue of Anlamani, Boston Museum of Art
Louvre Museum reconstruction of Anlamani
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Senkamanisken statue, Kerma museum
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Atlanersa holding up the heavens, on a stand for a boat shrine of Amun-Ra
Shebitku Member # 23742
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victory stele of Assyrian king Esarhaddon with the son of Taharaqa,Ushankhuru captive
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Taharqa, followed by the sistrum shaking queen Takahatamun making offerings to Amun and Mut,Jebel Barkal,Temple of Mut
Archeopteryx Member # 23193
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The Archer king, bronze statue originally covered in gold leaf, found on the island of Argo south from Kerma. Meroitic time, third century BC. Sudan National Museum in Khartoum.
Detail
From behind
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: One can also wonder about the different facial features of some of the Egyptian pictures and the Kushite ones. Do some of the Egyptian artwork portray more southern peoples?
Of course the nature of the depictions could also vary over time.
Here is just a couple of examples, first the Kushite Pharaohs Taharqa and Tantamani (25th dynasty)
Then a prisoner, and some Kushites bringing tributes (from the 18th and 19th dynasty)
To answer your first question-- Yes! This is a common problem with the label of 'Nubian' or even 'Kushite' being applied to every depiction of Africans further south the New Kingdom Egyptians were at conflict with. Many people forget that Kush wasn't just a kingdom but a vast empire. This was discussed before here, here, and here.
It's not even known what the true extent of Kush's boundaries were but it's apparent that not all the peoples under Kushite hegemony were ethnic Kushites. In fact many scholars have noted that many soldiers in the Kushite armies both in physiognomy, attire, and hairstyles bear a striking resemblance to modern day south Sudanese tribes like Dinka, Nuer, etc.
Shebitku Member # 23742
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
In fact many scholars have noted that many soldiers in the Kushite armies both in physiognomy, attire, and hairstyles bear a striking resemblance to modern day south Sudanese tribes like Dinka, Nuer, etc.
What ethnic groups do you think the present north Sudanese are descended from?
Djehuti Member # 6698
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^ I think modern North Sudanese, besides the Arab admixture, descend from indigenous peoples from dynastic times as well as immigrants from the Western Desert from the beginning of the 1st millennium CE.
Yatunde Lisa Bey Member # 22253
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The identity of the unnamed supplicant before him has been matter of debate. He may be the king of Tyre Baal I,[4] mentioned in Esarhaddon's Treaty with Ba'al of Tyre, or the king of Sidon Abdi-Milkutti
Jeremiah 13:23 23 Can a Cushite change his skin or a leopard its spots?
The land of Cush has been known by many names throughout history. The Egyptians knew the land as Cush. To the Greeks and Romans it was Aethiopia (or Ethiopia—though not to be confused with the modern nation located on the Horn of Africa). The medieval Arabs referred to the country as Nubia.
Archeopteryx Member # 23193
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In British Museum they have the Hamadab stela from the time of the Kushite queen Amanirenas (c. 40 BC to c. 10 BC). On its top it has pictures of Queen Amanirenas and Prince Akinidad facing a god, probably Amun, on the left; on the right the same individuals appear before a goddess, perhaps Mut, who holds an ankh.
Below these figures is a frieze where one can see several prisoners. There has been speculations that these prisoners could be captive Romans.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [QB] In 2003, at Dukki Gel, north of Kerma, statues of five Kushite kings were excavated. They can now be seen in the Kerma museum
Statues of various rulers of the late 25th Dynasty–early Napatan period: Tantamani, Taharqa (rear), Senkamanisken, again Tantamani (rear), Aspelta, Anlamani, again Senkamanisken. Kerma Museum (from Wikipedia)
^ I have noticed that some of these Kushite art pieces depict kings with this vertically oriented skull shape.
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we should not assume the elongated head shape of the 18th dynasty kings is spread throughout the long history of Egypt, likewise Kush
**put the photos above that have text on them on your hardrive, you will not find them elsewhere in this format
Shebitku Member # 23742
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti : I think modern North Sudanese, besides the Arab admixture, descend from indigenous peoples from dynastic times as well as immigrants from the Western Desert from the beginning of the 1st millennium CE.
Do you think they received "Arabian" gene flow via Axumites prior to arab tribes coming into the region?
Shebitku Member # 23742
posted Kushites from the Tomb of Rekhmire
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by Shebitku: Do you think they received "Arabian" gene flow via Axumites prior to Arab tribes coming into the region?
I don't think so since genetic studies from the likes of Sudanese expert Dr. Hassan Muhammad say, "Haplogroup F-M89 and YAP appeared to be more frequent among Meroitic, Post Meroitic and Christian periods." So I take it there was no Arabian J until the Islamic period.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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Tazarah Member # 23365
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Lioness what happened
Why are you no longer a mod
Shebitku Member # 23742
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King Arnekhamani,Apedemak temple
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Temple of Mut
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Lioness what happened
Why are you no longer a mod
Because she abused her power. My question is why did she post that section from the 2017 Abusir study on Late Period northern Egyptians when the previous discussion was about the genetics of Nubians.
the lioness, Member # 17353
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: My question is why did she post that section from the 2017 Abusir study on Late Period northern Egyptians when the previous discussion was about the genetics of Nubians.
because you said this
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So I take it there was no Arabian J until the Islamic period.
So I showed a source documenting Y haplogroup J in Africa for reference Why it's there in the (wide) date ranges listed I'm not sure. It just some documentation to consider. It's possibly the oldest J found in Africa so far but I'm not sure
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Shebitku, if possible, please put the caption and link on that one, thanks
Tazarah Member # 23365
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Shebitku, if possible, please put the caption and link on that one, thanks
why are you ignoring me
why are you bossing ppl around
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: My question is why did she post that section from the 2017 Abusir study on Late Period northern Egyptians when the previous discussion was about the genetics of Nubians.
because you said this
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: So I take it there was no Arabian J until the Islamic period.
So I should a source documenting Y haplogroup J in Africa for reference Why it's there in the (wide) date ranges listed I'm not sure. It just some documentation to consider. It's possibly the oldest J found in Africa so far but I'm not sure
My discussion with Shebitku was about Nubia NOT Africa in general or Egypt. Pay attention snake, before you attempt to scrutinize!
Djehuti Member # 6698
posted Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty) granite head of male found in Kerman tumulus
It seems the convention for statuary depictions of Kushite rulers was established early.
BrandonP Member # 3735
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty) granite head of male found in Kerman tumulus
It seems the convention for statuary depictions of Kushite rulers was established early.
I wonder whether this depicts a native Kushite person or someone from another ethnic group?
I wonder whether this depicts a native Kushite person or someone from another ethnic group?
Which other ethnic group do you think it is portraying? A Egyptian?
BrandonP Member # 3735
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quote:Originally posted by Shebitku:
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
I wonder whether this depicts a native Kushite person or someone from another ethnic group?
Which other ethnic group do you think it is portraying? A Egyptian?
Not sure. I do know the Kushites are known to have carried off Egyptian artworks in raids during the Kerma period though. This statue of a lady named Sennuwy would be an example.
Shebitku Member # 23742
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Funerary chapel of Queen Shanakdakhete
Djehuti Member # 6698
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quote:Originally posted by BrandonP:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Middle Kingdom (12th Dynasty) granite head of male found in Kerman tumulus
It seems the convention for statuary depictions of Kushite rulers was established early.
I wonder whether this depicts a native Kushite person or someone from another ethnic group?
Well the fact that it was found in an elite tumulus plus the fact that it looks no different from later Kushite depictions leads me to believe it depicts a native Kushite.
quote: Not sure. I do know the Kushites are known to have carried off Egyptian artworks in raids during the Kerma period though. This statue of a lady named Sennuwy would be an example.
But usually trophies of enemy statues would ritually buried under door thresholds to be trampled over, and if it was buried in a tumulus it would probably be put beneath the feet or something.
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