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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Doug M: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Oshun: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Oshun: [qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Swenet: [QB] [QUOTE]Originally posted by Oshun: There isn't a haplogroup that is subject to some geological apartheid barrier[/QUOTE]You clearly haven't seen any maps of L4, E-M35, U6, M1, L6, etc. Apartheid is your words, but these haplogroups show a clear geography-based distribution pattern. What do you call these largely uncorrelated distributions? http://i67.tinypic.com/6sswts.jpg [/QUOTE]Peaks in 2-3 main areas: West African coast line (peaking in equitorial West African coast and staying steady into the Mauritania coastline where it starts tapering off). There's another peak area or two in east Africa. We also do not see a tapering effect that relies exclisvely on distance from the sahara. South Africa and east African coastlines as well as the distance from the Sahel show a tapering effect. I guess people can say that the peak points are in SSA but it's like injecting science into a preexisting construct. A lot of the genetic data is found in this sociopolitical area called "SSA" but it doesn't validate SSA as a ecological or genetic cluster (which I was not arguing that you or beyoku were saying, Doug was). https://snag.gy/L5bDtd.jpg figure A (M1?) has peak points in areas north and south of the Sahara (like the horn). A nice example of some haplogroups not fitting neatly within sociopolitical lines. [/qb][/QUOTE]Again, trying to obscure clear hg distribution patterns with irrelevant bi-directional migrations. [/QUOTE]What are you talking about? M1 peaks in the horn AND in North East Africa. These are the two largest distributions. There are two distribution patterns, one in the Sahara, one outside. Even if we're going to say migrations are the reason, those people are not "Saharan" people. They are Native to a different location and are adapting to that areas ecosystem. [QUOTE] You're not addressing what anyone is saying. You're too busy trying to push back against things you don't like based on pure wishful thinking. This is what you said: [QUOTE]Originally posted by Oshun: There [b]isn't a haplogroup[/b] that is subject to [b]some geological apartheid barrier[/b][/QUOTE]Based on the distribution of M1, U6 and the other aforementioned hgs, your claim is not supported. There is a clear geographical pattern over large regions, local contradictions (due to migrations) notwithstanding. [/QUOTE]Some haplogroups will peak in areas north and south of the Sahara, but this doesn't make the idea of assigning genetics to this dichotomy valid in my opinion. U6's distribution is very localized within the Sahara. It's an example of a haplogroup inside of the Sahara, but it doesn't justify "Sub Saharan Africa" as an ecological or genetic cluster. M1 has distribution with peak points reaching inside and outside of the Sahara. [/qb][/QUOTE]No single Haplogroup defines a population and that is why this whole argument is silly. Not to mention we are talking about current populations. As far as the historic distribution of these lineages most of it is theoretical because of the limited number of remains that have been sampled. There are numerous genetic lineages in modern North African populations making this argument of genetic isolation between North Africa and Sub Saharan Africa a false dichotomy. Not to mention this doesn't extend back 50,000 years ago as populations moved around too much between now and then to make any suggestion that the modern distribution of haplogroups reflects ancient patterns. What you see today are simply the lineages that survived and does not tell you ALL the lineages that existed across space and time in North Africa. What haplogroups did the Uam Muhaggiang mummy carry? People need to stop with the oversimplification of population dynamics. [QUOTE] The North African mitochondrial DNA (mtDNA) genetic pool has been shown to reflect influence from different regions, with sizeable portions of lineages from Sub-Saharan Africa, the Middle East, and others that diversified perhaps first in Europe [1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10], a pattern also shown with autosomal data [11]. The geographic patterns of some of the haplogroups that constitute the North African mtDNA pool have been singled out as being more informative about early population histories than others; for example, the variation in haplogroup U6 [1, 12], a haplogroup that has been termed “the main indigenous North African cluster” [13], and, to a lesser extent the variation in M1, which is more predominantly found in Eastern Africa/Ethiopia [14, 15, 16]. U6 and M1 both share the feature of being African-specific sub-clades of haplogroups otherwise spread only in non-African populations. Indeed, whilst most U clades are found in North Africa and in Eurasia, as far as the Ganges Basin, U6 is virtually restricted to North (West) Africa. For macro-haplogroup M, this African connection is even more puzzling, as haplogroups belonging to M are mostly found only in South, Central and East Asia, the Americas and Oceania, where no M1 has yet been reported. [b]The Palaeolithic archaeological record of North Africa is spatially and temporally diverse, revealing a variety of technological shifts during the later Pleistocene period. The Aterian, a regional variant of the Middle Palaeolithic (or Middle Stone Age), was previously thought to have existed ~40,000–20,000 years ago (KYA), and argued to mark the earliest modern humans in North Africa. These dates have been drastically reassessed and the upper bound is now closer to ~115 KYA [17] or even as old as ~145 KYA [18]. [/b]The transition from the Middle Palaeolithic to Upper Palaeolithic in North Africa is characterised by the appearance of the “Dabban”, an industry that is restricted to Cyrenaica in northeast Libya and represented at the caves of Hagfet ed Dabba and Haua Fteah [19]. Whilst a techno-typological shift occurred within the Dabban ~33 KYA [19], starker changes in the archaeological record occurred throughout North Africa and Southwest Asia ~23-20 KYA, represented by the widespread appearance of backed bladelet technologies. The appearance of these backed bladelet industries more or less coincides with the timing of the Last Glacial Maximum (LGM) (~23-18 KYA), including: ~21 KYA in Upper Egypt [20]; ~20 KYA at Haua Fteah with the Oranian [21]; the Iberomaurusian expansion in the Jebel Gharbi ~20 KYA [22]; and the first Iberomaurusian at Tamar Hat in Algeria ~20 KYA [23]. The earliest Iberomaurusian sites in Morocco appear to be only slightly younger ~18 KYA [24]. Whilst backed bladelet production is broadly shared across the different regions of North and East Africa, there was also a level of regional cultural diversity during this period, possibly mirroring a diversification of populations. [b]The Sahara Desert expanded considerably during the LGM, perhaps concentrating human groups along the North African coastal belt and the Nile Valley. Climatic conditions improved in North Africa ~15 KYA, marking the beginning of a dramatic arid-to-humid transition [25]. This increase in humidity may have opened up ecological corridors, connecting North and Sub-Saharan Africa and allowing population dispersals between the two regions.[/b] An additional arid-humid transition occurred at 11.5–11 KYA [25]; this period coincides with a widespread change in the archaeological record that marks the beginning of Capsian lithic technologies. The Capsian is argued to have developed in situ in North Africa, marking a continuity from the Iberomaurusian and Oranian into the Capsian [21, 24, 26].[/QUOTE] https://bmcevolbiol.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2148-12-234 The saharan pump theory demolishes the idea of a historic divide between North and Africa South of the Sahara. the current distribution of some haplogroups today are only a faint echo of populations that existed in the past. They only tell you somewhat about those populations that survived in North Africa as part of the latest wave of migrations. There is not enough data from human remains over the period from 40kya to 10kya to fill in the gaps. But we know the Sahara was environmentally in flux over this period so it is impossible to calculate all the migration scenarios that occurred during this time. As far as we know those M lineages could have spanned the entire width of North Africa at some point and well to the south along with other lineages. But there is no way to know that without remains and DNA samples over that time period. [/QB][/QUOTE]
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