posted
In A.D. 1312, Emperor Abubakari Muhammad , of Mali gave his throne to Mansa Musa and embarked with his fleet into the Atlantic Ocean in search of the continent opposite Africa. Archaeological and epigraphic evidence in- dicates that Abubakari, and or members of his expedition settled in pre-Columbian Brazil.
The Indians have a tradition that Mansar Akban was the leader of another tribe which discovered the Cunan people.This Mansar Akban, may be a reference to Mansa Abubakari, who led the Malian voyagers to the Americas.
The Manding lived in mounds along the Niger rivers. The mound cultures of ancient America were built by Africans primarily Manding. The people of the Niger Delta formed river riverine communities which were partly vegetation with some aquatic animals were eaten.
The ancient Manding built several types of homes. In ancient times they built masonry houses and cliff dwellings identical to those found in the American Southwest. In Medieval times they lived on mounds in the most watery areas in their circular huts made a stone and wood on the top and their fields in front of the mounds tilled each day.
The Malian people introduced their technology to the Americas. The Manding built dwellings depending on the topography . Near rivers they lived on mounds. In semi-arid regions they lived in cliff houses, like those found in the Southwest. Today the Dogon who trace their descent to the Mande live in identical dwellings as those found in Colorado ,where Manding inscriptions dating to the A.D. 1000 's have been found related to the Pueblo culture.
Tellem Cliff Dwellings from West Africa
The most common signs found in Mandeland and the American southwest are habitation signs painted in red at Anasazi. These signs agree with Mande signs along the Niger river in Africa.
The Malian ships or canoes plowing down the NIger were operated by the Bozo and Sorko fishermen. The Bozo lived along the western arm of the Niger bend. The Sorko people, who spoke Songhay language submitted to Manding rule. The Bozo and Sorko, were the masters of the Niger river transport.
Mande Sewn Boat Many of the ships of the NIger could carry burdens of 60-80 tons. These canoes were ninety to one hundred feet long. The men usually sat three abreast with ease. Around forty men paddled.
Other canoes were joined together. These canoes were forty feet long and five feet across. These jointed boats were mainly navigated by the Bozo. In addition to canoes the fishermen along the Niger built rope sewn plank boats ninety to one hundred feet long.
Around A.D. 1310, thousands of Manding speakers arrived in the Americas from ancient Mali. Ibn Fadlullah al- Umari, in his encyclopedia "Masalik al Absar", said the mariners from Mali during the reign of Abubakari made transatlantic voyages. Al-Umari, obtained his information from Mansa Musa, who was handed the kingship of Mali by Abubakari when he set out to colonize the Americas.
Mansa Musa, said that Mansa Abubakari would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighboring sea (the Atlantic). Musa, told al-Umari that:"so he sent out 200 ships equipped and filled with men and the same number filled with gold, water and enough food to last them for years. Muhammad Abubakari, commanded that the captain not return until the supplies were exhausted".
After sometime, according to Mansa Musa, a single ship returned and the captain was ordered to report his findings. "Prince", he replied "we sailed for a long time up to the moment when we encountered in mid-Ocean something like a river with a violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on...they disappeared and did not come back".
"But the Emperor[Abubakari] did not believe him", continued Musa,"He equipped two thousand vessels, a thousand for himself, and a thousand for water and supplies. He conferred power on me [Mansa Musa] and left with his companions on the ocean".
The expeditionary force of Mansa Abubakari, must have been immense, because the average boat on the Niger, in the 1500's A.D., could carry 80 men. This means that anywhere between 25,000 to 80,000 men may have sailed from Mali along with Mansa Abubakari.
The mention of a violent current in mid-ocean by Abubakari's captain may refer to the Atlantic ocean currents which can carry a boat from Africa to the Americas.
We can hypothesize that Abubakari and his expeditionary force probably left the city of Niani, by canoe and traveled down the NIger to the Gulf of Guinea. From here the expeditionary force was probably carried by the Guinea Current out into the Atlantic where it met the South Equatorial Current. The South Equatorial Current carried the Mali explorers to Brazil.
Abubakari's ships would not be the last vessels to be carried to Brazil. For example, in 1500 , Alvares Cabral's ship was captured by the North Equatorial Current and swiftly taken to Brazil.
In Mexico the Malian wanders are depicted in the Mixtec Codex Dorenberg (fourtenth century). These migrates are bearded, they have large noses and lips, and are represented with black skins. In addition,to the Codex Dorenberg they are also seen in the Codex Tro, with staff or spear in hand, feathered headdresses, polished earrings, cloaks and loincloths made of the finest woven cotton. They wore arm and wrist bands, and small white shells on their ankles which rattled as they walked , usually in groups of two's or three's.
In Mexico, due to previous cultural development the Manding found large heavily populated Indian communities. Therefore the Malian colonists did not establish any large communities in Mexico, but they were active traders and are remembered for their merchandise.
The are Mexican traditions of groups of foreigners moving northward throughout the early 14th century. These men probably formed the vanguard of a larger body of Malians which probably entered Mexico in 1325, and fought the Mexicans around this time for land to settle. The battle of these Africans and Amerindians, is seen in the legend of a battle between an eagle and a serpent and the choice of the site of the battle as the place to build Mexico's Tenochititlan. The serpent is the totem of the Manding, it therefore probably represents the Malian forces, and the eagles the Amerindians. Among these foreign migratory groups it is reported in Amerindian traditions that they took the practice of agriculture and pottery making to the Chichimecs, and helped design and build the houses around Lake Texcoco in 1327.
ANASAZI
The Manding mentioned in the Mexican traditions of 1325, may represent the founders of Anasazi civilization of Four Corners section of the United States. Anasazi, is a Navajo word which means "Ancient Ones" for the founders of the spectacular cliff dwellings and great multistoried pueblos erected on open plains near the San Juan, Salt and Little Colorado rivers. Although American anthropologists accept the theory that the Amerindians entered North America across the Bering Strait about 20000-15000 years ago , the Hopis, on the contrary say their ancestors crossed the sea during their emergence to this present Fourth World, arriving somewhere along the coast of Mexico or Central America, then gradually worked their way northward to settle in their present homes in the Four Corners region.
They call the original inhabitants of the cliff dwellings "Ancient Ones". These Anasazi were probably Manding speakers. The ruins of their great stone cities are crouched low on the Mesa tops or nestled in caves along the sheer canyon walls of this high desert region. These stone cities are exact replicas of stone cities cliff dwellings found in West African areas that formerly formed part of the Mali empire, especially the Dogon towns.
In what is now known as Four Corners region where the states of Utah, Colorado, New Mexico and Arizona come together at a common point the Anasazi tilled the earth and even irrigated their crops, and stored some of the harvest for later use.
Palatki Cliff Dwellings. The Palatki cliff dwellings are similar to the Tellem Cliff Houses. Malian Cliff Dwellings from Tellem
The Malians left many inscriptions in the Southwestern part of the United States. The presence of Manding in Four Corners, is supported by the appearance of Dogon and Bambara ideograms, called petroglyphs, on rocks in the Anasazi area. Moreover, there are several tablets found in Four Corners which have been deciphered that were written in an aspect of Malinke.
The Pilatki inscriptions is also written in Manding not Sanskrit. Below we see the following signs. The Malinke inscriptions were read from right to left. Top to bottom. There are five Malinke or Mande signs on the Palatki inscriptions. The inscription says:
Be
su i se
Se Gyo/Jo
The English translation is as follows: “Exist here a superior place Of habitation. Make (this) place a success, consecrated to the Divinity”
In conclusion, in 1310 thousands of Malians arrived in the Americas. Many of these Malians settled throughout South America and the American Southwest where they left numerous inscriptions written in the Malinke Bambara language that was spoken by the Malian court.
The Palatki inscription is written in the Mande language not Sanskrit. This inscription describes the picturesque setting where the Palatki inscription and cave dwellings were found.
Due to the spread of nomadic Amerindians from the northwest,the Anasazi were forced from their stone cities and cliff dwellings by the invaders. There was probably some intermarriage between Africans and Amerindians and today we see a negroid strain among the southwestern Amerindian populations. In addition many African communities were found in the Southwest when Europeans arrived in this part of the United States.
posted
That's some good stuff Clyde! Though, it would undoubtedly be very contreversial. But like I said, Roman items were found off the coast of Brazil...so. Plus, it is a known fact that the mid-Atlantic current swings you right to Brazil and the area around there. The only way you avoid that is with sails.
You said there are inscriptions saying Abubakari left Mali to travel across the ocean? If so, that's what you call corroborating evidence.
quote:Not a single legit pre columbian scholar agrees with this stuff.
Scholars don't agree with lots of things until they're proven wrong. At one point, scholars didn't believe the Ancients had the ability to across the Atlantic ocean until somebody (forgot his name) made a replica of some ancient ship and did it!
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You said there are inscriptions saying Abubakari left Mali to travel across the ocean? If so, that's what you call corroborating evidence.
The information on Muhammad Abubakari's voyage in search of America comes from Arabic documents. After the Malians came to America they left many inscriptions written in Mande to tell the colonist the best place to settle.
The Palatki inscriptions and other Mande inscriptions in the Four Corners region of the American Southwest, and the tradition that a Mande tribe formerly lived in thie region support Mande speaking people in Anasazi region.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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OK, once again here's the translation of the source of all we definitely know about Mali officially seeking to find what lay beyond the empire's sunset into the Atlantic, probably from Senegal doubtfully from Nigeria.
quote: Says ibn Amir Hajib “I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold, water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years. He told those who commanded them: return only when you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their adventure. Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on, gradually each entered this place, they disappeared and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where I was and did not enter that current.
But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped 2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master of the empire”.
Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans Masilik el Absar Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927 74-5
The text precedes any "pre-Columbian" scholar or scholarship by a good 400 years. Any such "scholars" would be fools to suggest no such text exists or is relevent to African presence in the Americas under their own power not as objects of or participants in other people's ventures across the Atlantic.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK, once again here's the translation of the source of all we definitely know about Mali officially seeking to find what lay beyond the empire's sunset into the Atlantic, probably from Senegal doubtfully from Nigeria.
quote: Says ibn Amir Hajib “I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold, water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years. He told those who commanded them: return only when you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their adventure. Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on, gradually each entered this place, they disappeared and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where I was and did not enter that current.
But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped 2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master of the empire”.
Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans Masilik el Absar Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927 74-5
The text precedes any "pre-Columbian" scholar or scholarship by a good 400 years. Any such "scholars" would be fools to suggest no such text exists or is relevent to African presence in the Americas under their own power not as objects of or participants in other people's ventures across the Atlantic.
So this is yet more corroborating evidence of African seafaring...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...even though this happened many years after the Olmec came around.
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posted
How does an event of ~1350 CE -- 3,000 years after the commencement of Olmec civ -- give weight to them being connected to 1400 BCE Africa?
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: How does and event ~1350 CE -- 3,000 years after the commencement of Olmec civ -- give weight to them being connected to 1400 BCE Africa?
I said it gives weight to West African seafaring. I even said this happened afterward...so what are YOU talking about?
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What YOU were talking about
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...
It does...it shows it was possible. Realize that tribes use many of the same techniques over many generations. The boats Clyde describe are very simple and durable...just like the Ra boats.
Takuri, what is your position on this? Do you believe it is outright impossible...or are you just skeptical?
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posted
^^ I hate to echo Hore but what's 'possible' is different from what WAS!
It's also possible for the Chinese to colonize East Africa as we have evidence of seafaring expiditions there!
Also, what about the example pictures I provided showing the similarities between the Zulus and other disparate cultures?? This is exactly what Clyde does.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Also, what about the example pictures I provided showing the similarities between the Zulus and other disparate cultures?? This is exactly what Clyde does.
This is not what I have done. I did three things 1) I pointed out that Abubakari probably made a voyage on the Atlantic and sailed to America;2) there are Mande inscriptions in the Four Corner region of the American Southwest; and 3) some of the citizens of Mali were the Dogon who built cliff dwellings.
Since some of the Malians were Dogon, it suggested that they may have continued this architectual practice in the American Southwest. This provided contexts for my discussion of Malians in the Anasazi region.
Your comparison of Zulu house building techniques and house building techniques in other parts of the world have no contexts so your presentation lacks any validity or reliability.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^^ I hate to echo Hore but what's 'possible' is different from what WAS!
It's also possible for the Chinese to colonize East Africa as we have evidence of seafaring expiditions there!
Also, what about the example pictures I provided showing the similarities between the Zulus and other disparate cultures?? This is exactly what Clyde does.
So Djehuti...what do you make of the Mande script the Olmecs used then? I'm not saying this theory is leak-proof and irrefutable...but to act as if it was impossible in light of what Winters has said (which is very intriguing to say the least), shows that you have no intent to even acknowledge the theory or take it into consideration. And here I thought you were open-minded.
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posted
You can't use nautical evidence separated by 3,000 years to assume anything. For example, that submarines exist today does not weigh in as support for the lands who today have submarines had them 3,000 years ago in 1000 BCE.
Bubakari's fleet didn't use papyrus vessels. They were wooden. The Dafuna canoe is a pre-historic artifact of proto-solid body water craft in south central Sahara.
GOOGLE has seriously rehauled its archive of our ES and NILEVALLEY forum but I will search for what little I posted on the Dafuna canoe.
And yes I'm extremely skeptical of protoSoninke 2nd millenium BCE full fleeted expedtion across the Atlantic to MesoAmerica, as any serious scholar or student outside of dogmatic fantasy idealogy must be.
There's plenty of sane Africana to spend time on and disseminate to a world that mostly holds only negative myths about African accomplishments.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What YOU were talking about
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...
It does...it shows it was possible. Realize that tribes use many of the same techniques over many generations. The boats Clyde describe are very simple and durable...just like the Ra boats.
Takuri, what is your position on this? Do you believe it is outright impossible...or are you just skeptical?
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:So Djehuti...what do you make of the Mande script the Olmecs used?
There is no agreement to the effect that Olmec writing has any relationship to the Vai script:
The Epi-Olmec script turned out to be structurally similar to the Maya. It is logophonetic, meaning that one set of the signs, the phonograms, have phonetic values, while the other glyphs, called logograms, represents morpheme. A morpheme is a word or part of a word that cannot be broken further into smaller units with relevant meaning. For instance, the English word beautiful can be broken down into beauty and -ful, neither of which can be broken down further. Beauty is a morpheme because it is a word. Furthermore, -ful carries the meaning of "a lot of", and can also be used with other words, like bountiful, faithful, and others. Hence it is not a unique derivation of beauty, but a morpheme in its own right.
In a logophonetic system, both logograms and phonograms are used. Frequently logograms make up the root of a word whereas phonograms spell out the prefixes and suffixes that modify the root.
The most distinguishable feature of all Mesoamerican scripts is the highly intricate and pictorial form of signs. They are often called "hieroglyphic" in analogy to Egyptian hieroglyphs since their symbols are highly pictorial. For this reason, a sign from a Mesoamerican scripts is often called a "glyph", as a short form of "hieroglyph". Visually, Mesoamerican scripts resemble each other, and share many similar glyphs. This is primarily due to the fact that many Mesoamerican glyphs bear resemblance to real objects such as animals, people, natural features, etc, albeit in a stylized fashion. Often animals and humans appear as "portraits" in that only the heads of these creatures are drawn, but in few cases "full-body" glyphs are also used. Human body parts, especially arms and legs, are also used extensively to denote action, or verbs if used as grammatical structures. Other times glyphs appear as complex geometrical shapes like circles, rectangles, cross-hatches, etc. http://www.ancientscripts.com/ma_ws.htmlPosts: 15202 | Registered: Jun 2004
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quote:So Djehuti...what do you make of the Mande script the Olmecs used?
There is no agreement to the effect that Olmec writing has any relationship to the Vai script:
The Epi-Olmec script turned out to be structurally similar to the Maya. It is logophonetic, meaning that one set of the signs, the phonograms, have phonetic values, while the other glyphs, called logograms, represents morpheme. A morpheme is a word or part of a word that cannot be broken further into smaller units with relevant meaning.
This discussion of Epi Olmec is invalid. There is no such thing as Epi-Olmec all of the Olmec writing, is Olmec writing.
The alleged decipherment of Epi-Olmec has proven to be a hoax. This was proven when researchers tried to use the decipherment of this writing to read the Teo Mask.
A mysterious ancient stone mask from Mexico has spoken — but apparently only to say that its people's written language remains undeciphered.BYU's Stephen Houston holds a copy of ancient script from Mexico. He disagrees with claims that "Teo Mask" words have been deciphered.
A study by Brigham Young University archaeologist Stephen Houston and his colleague from Yale University, Michael D. Coe, say the mask disproves earlier claims that the language had been cracked.
Their paper is to be published in "Mexicon," a journal about news and research from Mesoamerica. The title is "Has Isthmian Writing Been Deciphered?"
The "Teo Mask" may be about 1,600 to 1,900 years old. It was carved in a hard, greenish stone. The inside surface is covered with mysterious hieroglyphs.
In 1993, two researchers — John S. Justeson of the State University of New York, Albany, and Terrence Kaufman of the University of Pittsburgh, both anthropology professors — claimed in the journal Science that they had deciphered that written language.
Kaufman and Justeson call the writing "epi-Olmec script." However, Houston and Coe term it "Isthmian" because it was written by people who lived on and around Mexico's Isthmus of Tehuantepec. They date to within five centuries before and after A.D. 1.
Kaufman and Justeson said they had deciphered the writings based on semantic clues associated with known cultural practices and a similarity of the hieroglyphs to other writings in the region that had been deciphered.
They claimed to be able to read the earliest writings known from North America, inscriptions on large stone carvings called stela found in Veracruz, Mexico. The dates on the stones, they added, were A.D. 159 and A.D. 162.
The announcement made international headlines. But Houston and Coe doubt anyone can read the script.
Houston, an anthropology professor who is an expert on ancient Mesoamerica, won a John Simon Guggenheim Memorial Fellowship in 2002. When he attended Yale, he was a student of Coe's."Teo Mask" writings appear on the inside of the mask. In 1993, two researchers asserted that they had deciphered the language.
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: You can't use nautical evidence separated by 3,000 years to assume anything. For example, that submarines exist today does not weigh in as support for the lands who today have submarines had them 3,000 years ago in 1000 BCE.
Bubakari's fleet didn't use papyrus vessels. They were wooden. The Dafuna canoe is a pre-historic artifact of proto-solid body water craft in south central Sahara.
GOOGLE has seriously rehauled its archive of our ES and NILEVALLEY forum but I will search for what little I posted on the Dafuna canoe.
And yes I'm extremely skeptical of protoSoninke 2nd millenium BCE full fleeted expedtion across the Atlantic to MesoAmerica, as any serious scholar or student outside of dogmatic fantasy idealogy must be.
There's plenty of sane Africana to spend time on and disseminate to a world that mostly holds only negative myths about African accomplishments.
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: What YOU were talking about
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: ...it definitely gives the Olmec/African Connection more weight...
It does...it shows it was possible. Realize that tribes use many of the same techniques over many generations. The boats Clyde describe are very simple and durable...just like the Ra boats.
Takuri, what is your position on this? Do you believe it is outright impossible...or are you just skeptical?
Then you don't know your history of seafaring. Listen, I'm skeptical...just not as skeptical as you. I'm what you can call, pleasantly intrigued. Humans have been sailing for thousands of years...when you look at a continent like Australia that is totally separated from any landmass by many miles, what do you see? People have been living on that continent for who knows how long and how do you think they got there? They sailed. It would help me to know whether or not you're a diffusionist or isolationist? I'm a diffusionist (not hyper-diffusionist though), so it's easier for someone like me to fathom this.
Also, are you familiar with the so-called "Cocaine Mummies?" In 1992, a toxicologist named Svetla Balabanova discovered that 9 mummies (ranging from periods of 1070 BC-395 AD) tested positive for cocaine and hashish. Now the hashish is not suprising, but tell me how the Ancient Egyptians could have obtained coca and tobacco plants that were supposedly unknown outside of America before Columbus? When she conducted tests, she found nicotine INSIDE the mummies hair shafts, where it can only show up after metabolization.
Then, British researchers found the same thing in a separate case in 1996. Now, there are only two explanations...either the AE had access to some unknown and now extinct plants in the Old World, bearing high concentrations of cocaine, or they must have had trade contact with America. While neither seem very probable...you can't say it's impossible or a fantasy that the Ancients could have sailed long distances.
EDIT: I'm typing this while half sleap and I've had a few drinksso I apologize if this doesn't make much sense
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Who posted here the rock art of Australia showing they used boats to get to that continent in the first place?
Yes please get some shut eye and write back when you're rejuvenated.
Rest well.
And when was that done? Some 50,000-40,000 years ago? Yet you claim it's fantasy that West Africans could have traveled to the Americas when I've provided examples of other cultures doing it.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Pray tell where did I say West Africans never made their way to the Americas?
What purpose do you seek to serve by putting out such a lie about me?
quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion:
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Who posted here the rock art of Australia showing they used boats to get to that continent in the first place?
Yes please get some shut eye and write back when you're rejuvenated.
Rest well.
And when was that done? Some 50,000-40,000 years ago? Yet you claim it's fantasy that West Africans could have traveled to the Americas when I've provided examples of other cultures doing it.
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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Pray tell where did I say West Africans never made their way to the Americas?
What purpose do you seek to serve by putting out such a lie about me?
quote:
Statement 23 May 11:18 pm
And yes I'm extremely skeptical of protoSoninke 2nd millenium BCE full fleeted expedtion across the Atlantic to MesoAmerica, as any serious scholar or student outside of dogmatic fantasy idealogy must be.
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
What moron doesn't know that 2nd millenium BCE protoSoninke is not equal to all of West Africa throughout all time?
The serious scholar or student after perusing the translation of the Arabic text transcribing an interview with Mansa Gonga Musa that I provided in this very thread (see above 23 May, 2006 05:13 PM) will surmise that 2nd millenium CE Soninke who are, by the way, West Africans did make their way to the Americas.
I remain steadfast in my original statement to the group on this matter.
quote:While cognizant that there were voyages, whether intentional or accidental across the Atlantic to the Americas by various Old World peoples, I remain skeptical of unsubstantiated claims. Claims that tend to detract and serve to undermine verifed and verifiable accomplishments of African peoples their cultures, civilization, and history, particularly the West African empires of Mali and Songhai whose outlying provinces where the ones involved in trans-Atlantic ventures.
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Djehuti...are you a diffusionist of isolationist? Are your troll pics are stupid because those homes look nothing alike! You would think that when somebody trolled they would at least be a little more convincing. But nahh, you're suffering from Horedrome!!!
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Charm El Feikh?: hot Vaseline, smoking crack and coconut...
he was a black troll...
What did he look like? Was he tall? Short? Fat? Skinny? Paint a picture for me...
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by King_Scorpion: TROLL ALERT ABOVE....
Djehuti...are you a diffusionist of isolationist? Are your troll pics are stupid because those homes look nothing alike! You would think that when somebody trolled they would at least be a little more convincing. But nahh, you're suffering from Horedrome!!!
What are you talking about?? Those homes all have the same dome ('bee-hive') shape.
And in anyway, I am merely going by Clyde's methods in showing relation through similarities.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Not a single legit pre columbian scholar agrees with this stuff.
I felt it necessary to chime in with a somewhat alternative perpsective on these issues.
Have you ever stopped to consider the possiblity that black people existed as an autochthonous stock on every continent including the Americas?
After all, it is less problematic to suggest that the first people had dark skin and Negritic features, that they utlized a lower sea-level to colonize all habitable continents after a would be ice age, than to suggest that people from Africa had the nautical technology to establish colonies across the doldrums.
There are evidences (scant, rare) which promote this possibility. If you can get your hands on these books: The Black Book. Middleton Harris New York: Random House, 1974, The Primitive Black Nations of America Rafinesque 1833, "Journey to Esplandian" Ordonez de Montalvo, you will quickly appreciate that the Black Olmecs were just one of many black nations to have been established in the Americas long before Columbus arrived there.
Furthermore, the classical Native Americans of purported "Mongoloid" stock themselves encapsulate this idea within their languages. Many tribes have words or phrases which indicate the existence of a former race, or an original native people whom the "Indians" themselves succeeded and retain in collective memory. For example the Navajo word Anazasi means "ancient ones" or "ancient enemy", or even "enemy ancestors"; the word is in some circles rendered: "ancient people who are not us". Curiously the Anazasi people of Chaco Canyon carved their dwellings out of sheer rock face. That seems at least to me to be a pretty desperate thing to do considering the vast expanse of lands at the disposal of an original peoples of North America. Common sense dictates that they were hiding from a hostile element while basic deduction posits that element as the so-called "Mongoloid", "Indian" who in this instance kindly for posterity chose to name the people he supplanted in a telling manner. It gets deeper when you consider the Spanish actually encountered what they called Gente Negra in these and arid inhospitable parts: black NEGROID Indians, and in California, black NEGROID Amazons.
Further investigation throws up some interesting findings in this regard. It is quite possible that the so-called Mongoloid Native Americans are really actually an atypical, distilled strain of Caucasoids, mingled with a trace of the black ancestry they themselves denote as ancient. It is possible that the blacks who made it across the the land bridges of a pre-Pelegian world, were followed by a proto-Caucasian entity which became isolated with them in the Americas when the sea level rose.
Thus when Columbus arrived he found both brown skinned and straight haired, and dark skin, curly haired natives, the latter probably in submission to the former.
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I see no reason why either of the following should be considered as reasonable:
1) "Africans" settled in the Americas 2) This took place over 6,000-7,000 years ago
...when the word Africa (properly Africus) was merely the name given by the Romans to the direction in which resides the wasteland to which they exiled the natives of the lands they usurped to call home, and when there is no need for extravagant dates.
It doesn't take that long to settle an empty and accessible continent. Look how quickly Australia and the Americas was settled by Caucausians, and they were full of people at the time.
I think it's time that so-called scholars dispensed with the word "African" as a description of black people. It is quite possible that Africa is merely the largest reservation in human history and that to characterize all black peoples with this this Aryan language label is to hide the true history and heritage of the original man who FIRST inhabited all continents at the same time.
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posted
Better question, when did Colombus find black-skinned, curly haired, natives speaking languages related to Mandingo??
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:the word Africa (properly Africus) was merely the name given by the Romans to the direction in which resides the wasteland to which they exiled the natives of the lands they usurped to call home, and when there is no need for extravagant dates.
^ Much like Marc Washington's strategy.
We can call anything African if we simply make up a new definition of African.
But why do folks engage in such cheapskate sophistry thinking that they've stumbled on to something really clever?
Don't you know that your method is the same charade used to declare most every civilisation in history 'caucasian'?
Better question, when did Colombus find black-skinned, curly haired, natives speaking languages related to Mandingo??
It is recorded in Raccolta,Parte 1, Volume 1, as quoted in John Boyd Thacher,Christopher Columbus, His Life, His Work, His Remains (1903, 4:2 p.380) Here it is written:
Columbus wanted to find out what the Indians of Espaniola had told him, that there had come from the south and southeast , Negro people, who brought those spear points made of a metal which they call guanin , of which he had sent samples to the king and queen for assay....". The term guanin , corresponds to the Mande word for gold kanine, ghanin .
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-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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Better question, when did Colombus find black-skinned, curly haired, natives speaking languages related to Mandingo??
It is recorded in Raccolta,Parte 1, Volume 1, as quoted in John Boyd Thacher,Christopher Columbus, His Life, His Work, His Remains (1903, 4:2 p.380) Here it is written:
Columbus wanted to find out what the Indians of Espaniola had told him, that there had come from the south and southeast , Negro people, who brought those spear points made of a metal which they call guanin , of which he had sent samples to the king and queen for assay....". The term guanin , corresponds to the Mande word for gold kanine, ghanin .
.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:the word Africa (properly Africus) was merely the name given by the Romans to the direction in which resides the wasteland to which they exiled the natives of the lands they usurped to call home, and when there is no need for extravagant dates.
^ Much like Marc Washington's strategy.
We can call anything African if we simply make up a new definition of African.
But why do folks engage in such cheapskate sophistry thinking that they've stumbled on to something really clever?
Don't you know that your method is the same charade used to declare most every civilisation in history 'caucasian'?
Do you even care?
I guess not.
There is nothing clever or sophisticated about what I typed.
In basic language I'm saying that Lyps Africus or the "South Westerly Wind" is NOT the title of original human beings and therefore Africa or African should not be a benchmark for blackness.
The black man inhabited every continent. This is something the black man should be taught.
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It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
This is the standard nonsense response given by so many debunkers, so I'll dismantle it with a standard response.
The word Semite was coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists to describe half (SEMI, the sanskrit word for half) negroid, half Caucasian peoples populating the Fertile Crescent. Ergo there is no such thing as a semitic word for dust.
Africus is actually a Roman deity, cognate of Corus, Vulturnus and many more. All of them are simply names given to directions. Africus indicates a south westerly wind. Africa was named thus because from a Roman POV it (the Carthagian penninsula) resided in a south westerly direction.
In Roman mythology, Africus was the personification of the wind that came from the south-west. The continent of Africa, being to the south of Italy, was named after Africus.
quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
This is the standard nonsense response given by so many debunkers, so I'll dismantle it with a standard response.
The word Semite was coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists to describe half (SEMI, the sanskrit word for half) negroid, half Caucasian peoples populating the Fertile Crescent. Ergo there is no such thing as a semitic word for dust.
Africus is actually a Roman deity, cognate of Corus, Vulturnus and many more. All of them are simply names given to directions. Africus indicates a south westerly wind. Africa was named thus because from a Roman POV it (the Carthagian penninsula) resided in a south westerly direction.
In Roman mythology, Africus was the personification of the wind that came from the south-west. The continent of Africa, being to the south of Italy, was named after Africus.
I would have actually taken you seriously had you not said those ridiculous lies about the etymology of Semite (sons of Shem -> Shemite/Semite - Sanskrit has nothing to do with it and isn't even near Semitic languages). 19th century authors did have weird ideas about the Semite people, though (that they were a mixture of East Asians, Blacks and Whites).
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quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
This is the standard nonsense response given by so many debunkers, so I'll dismantle it with a standard response.
The word Semite was coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists to describe half (SEMI, the sanskrit word for half) negroid, half Caucasian peoples populating the Fertile Crescent. Ergo there is no such thing as a semitic word for dust.
Africus is actually a Roman deity, cognate of Corus, Vulturnus and many more. All of them are simply names given to directions. Africus indicates a south westerly wind. Africa was named thus because from a Roman POV it (the Carthagian penninsula) resided in a south westerly direction.
In Roman mythology, Africus was the personification of the wind that came from the south-west. The continent of Africa, being to the south of Italy, was named after Africus.
I would have actually taken you seriously had you not said those ridiculous lies about the etymology of Semite (sons of Shem -> Shemite/Semite - Sanskrit has nothing to do with it and isn't even near Semitic languages). 19th century authors did have weird ideas about the Semite people, though (that they were a mixture of East Asians, Blacks and Whites).
If your lack of comprehension was down to my lax composition skills then I apologize. The comment I made was that the word Semite is based on the Sanskrit for HALF: SEMI, and it pertains to someone who is half original (negritic) and half other. It was a word coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists.
Let me let you in on a little secret. There will always be two conflicting etymologies for any given contentous word or phrase. One is false the other is true. This is because white people tend to hide the truth.
In any event it isn't that difficult to determine which is which. In the case of Semite it is easy to determine that it has nothing to do with Shem the son of Noah. The word Shemite (meaning sons of Shem) does not exist in scripture. Furthermore the word Semite has no "h".
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quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
Yom, does the name 'Afer' have any connection to the 'Afar' of Ethiopia??
quote:Originally posted by 707: If your lack of comprehension was down to my lax composition skills then I apologize. The comment I made was that the word Semite is based on the Sanskrit for HALF: SEMI, and it pertains to someone who is half original (negritic) and half other. It was a word coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists.
Let me let you in on a little secret. There will always be two conflicting etymologies for any given contentous word or phrase. One is false the other is true. This is because white people tend to hide the truth.
In any event it isn't that difficult to determine which is which. In the case of Semite it is easy to determine that it has nothing to do with Shem the son of Noah. The word Shemite (meaning sons of Shem) does not exist in scripture. Furthermore the word Semite has no "h".
Okay, but last time I checked the root 'Semi' does not come from Sanskrit but Latin!
The Sanskrit word for half is ardha.
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posted
Oh and West Africans have nothing to do with the development of Olmec civilization or Anasazi culture in the US.
Posts: 26238 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Yom: ^^^Africus does not have that etymology.
It comes from a North African tribe named "Afer," possibly related to the Semitic word for earth/dust (e.g. Phoenician `afar, Amharic afer). The plural was "Afri." The Romans said "Afrika terra" to make it "the land of the Afri."
Yom, does the name 'Afer' have any connection to the 'Afar' of Ethiopia??
quote:Originally posted by 707: If your lack of comprehension was down to my lax composition skills then I apologize. The comment I made was that the word Semite is based on the Sanskrit for HALF: SEMI, and it pertains to someone who is half original (negritic) and half other. It was a word coined in the 19th century by European anthropologists.
Let me let you in on a little secret. There will always be two conflicting etymologies for any given contentous word or phrase. One is false the other is true. This is because white people tend to hide the truth.
In any event it isn't that difficult to determine which is which. In the case of Semite it is easy to determine that it has nothing to do with Shem the son of Noah. The word Shemite (meaning sons of Shem) does not exist in scripture. Furthermore the word Semite has no "h".
Okay, but last time I checked the root 'Semi' does not come from Sanskrit but Latin!
The Sanskrit word for half is ardha.
I wasn't arguing that SEMI is a Sanskrit word, just that it comes from a Sanskrit root.
semi- from L. semi- "half," from PIE *semi- (cf. Sanskrit. sami "half,"
Afer could not be of Roman Origin if the word can be found in the Kemetic language.
Afri+ka- Hot land elevation.
The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea: Travel and Trade in the Indian Ocean by a Merchant of the First Century
quote: 18. And these markets of Azania are the very last of the continent that stretches down on the right hand from Berenice; for beyong these places the unexplored ocean curves around toward the west, and running along by the regions to the south of Aethiopia and Libya and Africa, it mingles with the western sea.
Regions to the South of Aethiopia and Libya and AFRICA.
land of the AFER tribe is also quite possible because Libya was actually named after the Lebu Tribe. The name Africa or Afrika is definately of native Afrikan origin.
Afer could not be of Roman Origin if the word can be found in the Kemetic language.
Afri+ka- Hot land elevation.
The Periplus of the Erythraean Sea: Travel and Trade in the Indian Ocean by a Merchant of the First Century
quote: 18. And these markets of Azania are the very last of the continent that stretches down on the right hand from Berenice; for beyong these places the unexplored ocean curves around toward the west, and running along by the regions to the south of Aethiopia and Libya and Africa, it mingles with the western sea.
Regions to the South of Aethiopia and Libya and AFRICA.
land of the AFER tribe is also quite possible because Libya was actually named after the Lebu Tribe. The name Africa or Afrika is definately of native Afrikan origin.
Hotep
While you deal with possibilities I offer certainties. Africus is the Roman Deity representing the South Westerly Wind. This is not some conflation of possible prefixes. This is a fact.
Now let's join you in your desire to speculate.
Do you really believe that the Romans named their wind deity after a piece of dry land, after some ousted black tribe, the descendants of the people whose land (Italy) they conquered? Or do you believe they named that dry land after the wind deity representing the direction in which it lay?
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB]Yom, does the name 'Afer' have any connection to the 'Afar' of Ethiopia??
Maybe. "Afer" is spelled with an "ayin" (link from same etymology site), as was the land "Ophir" in the bible, which could be connected with the Afar in Ethiopia. Afar in Amharic is spelled with an "alif," but in Tigrinya and the Afar language, it too is spelled with an ayin, so the root for all the words is the same, if related.
The name is a self-designation, but it doesn't appear in ancient or medieval sources, unless a 1522 mention of "Afara" on a Spanish map of Ethiopia refers to them. Either way, northern Afars were designated to be "Danakil" in the north and "Adel" (like the kingdom/province ruled by Ahmed Gragn) by Semitic speakers (Also T.int.al or T.ilt.al for Danakil in Tigrinya). The Afar language is Afrasan, though, so it may be from the same root. The site I linked above doesn't give other branches other than Semitic the `apar root, though it is not a complete database.
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