posted
707, Shem and Sem are the same thing. In hebrew it's a "sh" sound, but in most other semitic languages it's an "s".
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Still it doesn't seem to touch upon the existence of a Roman deity (of the di indigetes -- gods, goddesses and spirits not adopted from other mythologies) called Africus, one of the Cardinal deities representing wind direction.
See, konwing the Roman attitude towards blacks, I find it difficult to reconcile the existence of this "Roman God" with anything resemembling a negritic phenomenon, ergo my tendency to dismiss any claim that the deity Africus was named after a black tribe.
Had Africus been a member of the di novensides (or newcommer gods) then perhaps I might have been inclined to accept it was named after some defeated tribe.
Unfortunately prudence dictates that a conquering Imperium would name its conquests after its own. Ergo Africa is a corruption of Africus, the name of an Aryan language speaking peoples' god. It is therfore an inappropriate label for original men.
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Here's information on Abubakari II trip across the Atlantic that was featured in the BBC in December of 2000.
Still it doesn't seem to touch upon the existence of a Roman deity (of the di indigetes -- gods, goddesses and spirits not adopted from other mythologies) called Africus, one of the Cardinal deities representing wind direction.
See, konwing the Roman attitude towards blacks, I find it difficult to reconcile the existence of this "Roman God" with anything resemembling a negritic phenomenon, ergo my tendency to dismiss any claim that the deity Africus was named after a black tribe.
Had Africus been a member of the di novensides (or newcommer gods) then perhaps I might have been inclined to accept it was named after some defeated tribe.
Unfortunately prudence dictates that a conquering Imperium would name its conquests after its own. Ergo Africa is a corruption of Africus, the name of an Aryan language speaking peoples' god. It is therfore an inappropriate label for original men.
Trying to claim Africus is the origin of Africa is just incorrect, you cannot PROVE this by any stretch of the imagination because I have evidence to refute your claim, lets take a look.
quote: Lips, or Livos, was the Greek deity of the southwest wind, often depicted holding the stern of a ship. His Roman equivalent was Afer ventus ("African wind"), or Africus, due to Africa being to the south of Italy. This name is derived from the name of a North African tribe, the Afri, who are also the likely origin of the name of the continent Africa, via the Romans. Africus was also, like Corus, one of the few native Roman deities, or di indigetes, to endure in later Roman mythology
Africus was the Roman equivalent of the Greek Livos both were deities of the South West Wind, Greeks influenced the Romans don't forget that now look at the concept of Wind divinities.
Gods of the Winds by Dr Alena Trckova-Flamee, Ph.D
quote: The Gods of the Winds appeared between the natural deities already in the Mycenaean Greece. A Priestess of the Winds was named on the Tablet from Mycenaean Knossos written in Linear Script B. Such function in the Knossos palace is giving us proof that the cult of the winds was an important one and that its deities existed there. Hesiod mentioned only three of the Wind-gods by their names: Boreas - the north wind, Zephyrus - the west wind, while for Eurus - the east (or southeast) wind, he used the surname Argestus, the bearer of brightness. But also the south wind called by the Greeks Notus was worshipped. During the ancient time a divine family of the winds was growing until eight members. Besides Boreas, Zephyrus, Eurus and Notus another four members were venerated, but they never became well known. Apeliotus - was the southeast wind, Lips or Livos - the southwest wind, Skeiron, the northeast wind (connected with the Attic month June and July - skiroforion) and finally Kaikias, the northwest wind (from the Greek word kakía - "badness"). The myth is saying that the Gods of the Winds were the children of Astraeus, the God of the Night-sky and father of the stars and the Goddess of Morning Eos. According to Homer a ruler over the winds was the king Aeolus. The winds were completely subdued as his instruments, he kept them locked and he let them to go out, when he or the gods wanted.
The cult of the winds was confirmed by the ancient authors on many places of Greece. Always a special, individually named wind was worshipped, which determined the weather at a certain period of the year or at a certain place. The Athenians adored Boreas, who according to the myth abducted Oreithyia, the daughter of the Athenian king Erechtheus. They built a temple to Boreas near the river Ilyssos, because they believed that it was the North Wind who helped them to destroy the Persian fleet. On the other side the Spartans were waiting for the east wind Eurus and its refreshing rain and they called him the Savior of Sparta. In Methana a ritual existed, in which a cock was sacrificed and where they were walking with this animal in procession around the vineyards. This special act had to banish Livos, the southwest wind, which was bringing rain. The inhabitants of the island Keos pursued the sacrifices for the cooling Etesian winds (etisios means "coming back every year"). Also the people of the Greek cities in the southern part of Italy used the sacrifice - of an ass - this time against the evil of the north wind.
The Gods of the Winds are depicted always as the personifications of men with their wings, but usually with different expressions and attributes. This type, a man with wings, was influenced by the Near-Eastern iconography and their belief in Ramman, the god of the wind, thunder and storms, who came to the Syrian mythology as Adad-Ramman. This winged Nature-god was represented on the Near-Eastern cylindrical seals from 15th century BCE, discovered in the Mycenaean necropolis of Perati. Also pictures of the Wind-god were found on some Greek Black-figured vases from 6th century BCE and we noticed that between some miniature ivory figures, depicting some mythological events, this image can be recognized, but such representations were very sporadic. After the Greek-Persian Wars the scenes showing the God of the Wind (and specially Boreas) became more popular. Due to a new interest of the Athenians in Boreas, the myth about North Wind and Oreithyia was in fashion on the Greek Red-figure vases until the Late Classical period.
Boreas - the most coldest and powerful wind - was depicted in the dramatic poses, dressed in a short cloth, which was moving round his body, the same as his curling hair and beard which were like flying. But later on this curly hair and beard were depicted more and more spiky. The vase-painters pictured small wings around his legs, but Pausanias was saying that the god had snake-tails and not normal feet. Also his sons - Zetes and Kalais (the comrades of Jason in the Argo) became winged as they became adults and they were presented again with these small wings around their legs.
Zephyrus, the west wind, was a very fine and a pleasant one. People called him the protector of the plants, because he brought humidity for them. He was represented as a young man with a lovely face and long grooved hair while keeping flowers and fruit in his light wrapper, which was encircling his body. Later on he was named Favonius by the Romans.
The south wind Notus was known as a very dynamic, stormy and dangerous wind especially when seamen were sailing. The Greeks were afraid of him, mainly when he blew together with the north wind. Notus was represented as a young, beardless man with long hair, covered by a short mantle with one open arm. He kept in his hands a vessel for water - hydria - from which all the rain was gushing out.
Eurus, the east wind, was bringing the bad storms, but he was more kind to the people, than his brothers Boreas and Notus. He also was wearing a short mantle encircling his body. He was depicted as a curly-headed man with an unkempt beard and with some sadness in his face. Sometimes he was called Apeliotus and the Romans called him Vulturnus.
But Apeliotus was in reality the name for the southeast wind, which was giving to people a refreshing rain. Therefore they pictured him as a curly-hair man with a friendly expression, dressed in a light cloth and keeping inside his draping cloths some flowers. And his brother Lips (Livos), who was a lukewarm southwest wind, was also bringing rain.
The northwest wind was called by the Athenians Skeiron. According to Pausanias it was a smart wind, which was blowing over the Skeirons' cliffs and Molourian rocks to the sea. The name Skeiron was taken from the mythological events, connected with the king's son of Megara, who was described as an honest man, but according to the other myths Skeiron was a robber. Theseus, when he seized Eleusis, killed him and after established in his honor the Isthmian Games under the protection of Poseidon.
Kaikias, the northeast wind, had a bad name in Greece as the bearer of snow, coldness and blizzards. This was the reason, why he took this name and why he had this image. He was represented as a man with serious features in his face, with a long hair and a beard. Hail is dropping out from his round vessel, which he is always carrying.
To see all the images of the Wind-Gods together, we have to turn our attention to the so called Tower of the Winds in Athens, near of the Roman Agora. The tower, which was built as a horologion (time-clock) in the half part of the first century BCE by the Syrian architect Andronicus Cyrrhestes, was made on the ground-plan of the eight angles. The reliefs of the eight personifications of the winds are decorating the fries, in which from every pertinent side a specific god-wind with his name is represented.
Now to ignore the Afar people in Afrika, would be totally negligent on your part 707 because the Afar people are linked with the Somalis and Oromo which proves they are a ANCIENT people in Afrika. Some sources state that Africa was located West of Kemet/Egypt while I have shown you one ANCIENT Geographer who place Africa below Ethiopia and Libya.
Here is some information on the Afar Tribe.
quote: Location: There are about 1.4 million Afar in the three countries: Ethiopia, Djibouti and Eritrea. The 1998 Ethiopia census reports about 980,000 Afar. Population estimates for Djibouti range from 130,000 to 170,000. Eritrea figures are generally reported as 300,000.
One source I know also reports almost 500,000 of these in Somali, but most sources have indicated they are not actually that far south. This was my conclusion when I investigated that question a few years ago.
In Djibouti the Afars make up about 40% of the population. The previous name of the territory was the French Territory of Afars and Issas, the latter being the tribe of Somalis who are dominant there.
Much of their territory is desert and salt flats, cut by great cracks from the sun's heat. Temperatures are reported to be the hottest on earth.
History: Little is known of the actual specific history of the Afar people. The Afar claim a descent from Arabs, through a mythic Yemeni ancestor, though they differ racially, linguistically and culturally.
This kind of cultural geneological adoption is common among Semitic and Cushitic peoples, such as some Somali clans, who also claim Yemeni Arab descent. Sometimes this reflects cultural ties from an earlier historical period or actual instances of intermarriage, perhaps for a defense alliance.
Popular history gives some insight into the history in the two traditional divisions of the Afar. Tradition indicates that the Asayahamara (The Red Ones) are descended from a group originally invading from the Ethiopian Highlands at one time, who imposed their rule on the Adoyahmara (The White Ones).
It is thought the color designations came from the reddish soil deserts inland, toward the direction the newcomers came from, and the white saline coastal areas, where the Adoyahamara are still more numerous. The Reds remain socially dominant, and claim ownership of the lands, while the Whites tend to be the herders. Both classes are, however, distributed among all the clans of the tribe.
Identity: The Afar are one of the people about whom little is available. Their inaccecssibility makes it difficulat to obtain reliable objective information
Through their myths of origin, the Afar claim Arab descent. Their language, however, and the traditional animistic practices underlying their more recent adherence to Islam, indicate the Afar share a history with neighbouring Cushite peoples. No written Afar records exist from previous eras, and the Afar remain as oral people.
The Afar are a distinct ethnic group, referenced as a separate ethnicity as far back as we have information about peoples of the Horn, though details are few. Every people, though, is related to other peoples, of course. The Afar are a distinct Eastern Cushite people, whose language and culture are related to the Somali and Oromo. They are very traditional in culture and belief, retaining many ancient Cushite animistic practices.
They are a dark brown or black people with Caucasian features, similar to the darker Somali and Oromo. They are likewise distantly related to the ancient Beja group of peoples, who are Southern Cushites, and related in turn to the ancient Egyptian race.
They are referred to by some sources as the Danakil, from the Arabic name of the Danakil Depression, or Desert, near the Red Sea in Ethiopia and Eritrea. The Amharic name for them is Adal. Adal was the name of an ancient Muslim empire that almost defeated the old Abyssinian Empire at one time. They call themselves Afar, which means in their language "The Best" or "First."
The Afar were active in the Arab slave trade, serving as guides to Arab slave traders. A major slave route to Arabia crossed Afar country, with Afar reportedly still actively trading in slaves as recently as 1928.
Language: The Afar speech is classified as a separate language in the Eastern Cushite group. It is most closely related to Saho (Ethiopia and Eritrea), and more distantly related to the Somali and Oromo groups of languages. Linguists generally identify four distinct dialects of Afar, Northern Central, Aussa and Baadu.
Literacy rate in Afar is only about 1%; in Amharic (in Ethiopia) perhaps 3%. In Sudan and Eritrea, Sudanese Arabic is used with neighbours and trading partners
Thank the Arabs for the brainwashing for some of these people with the descent from Yemen etc. though the facts say otherwise, though it is quite possible that the Afar people are the ones who gave AFARIKA-AFRICA= LAND OF AFAR, its name to the Romans, claiming the south west wind is just IGNORANT of the facts that the Afar people are more likely to be the reason for the name AFRICA.
Still it doesn't seem to touch upon the existence of a Roman deity (of the di indigetes -- gods, goddesses and spirits not adopted from other mythologies) called Africus, one of the Cardinal deities representing wind direction.
See, konwing the Roman attitude towards blacks, I find it difficult to reconcile the existence of this "Roman God" with anything resemembling a negritic phenomenon, ergo my tendency to dismiss any claim that the deity Africus was named after a black tribe.
Had Africus been a member of the di novensides (or newcommer gods) then perhaps I might have been inclined to accept it was named after some defeated tribe.
Unfortunately prudence dictates that a conquering Imperium would name its conquests after its own. Ergo Africa is a corruption of Africus, the name of an Aryan language speaking peoples' god. It is therfore an inappropriate label for original men.
Trying to claim Africus is the origin of Africa is just incorrect, you cannot PROVE this by any stretch of the imagination because I have evidence to refute your claim, lets take a look.
quote: Lips, or Livos, was the Greek deity of the southwest wind, often depicted holding the stern of a ship. His Roman equivalent was Afer ventus ("African wind"), or Africus, due to Africa being to the south of Italy. This name is derived from the name of a North African tribe, the Afri, who are also the likely origin of the name of the continent Africa, via the Romans. Africus was also, like Corus, one of the few native Roman deities, or di indigetes, to endure in later Roman mythology
Africus was the Roman equivalent of the Greek Livos both were deities of the South West Wind, Greeks influenced the Romans don't forget that now look at the concept of Wind divinities.
Gods of the Winds by Dr Alena Trckova-Flamee, Ph.D
quote: The Gods of the Winds appeared between the natural deities already in the Mycenaean Greece. A Priestess of the Winds was named on the Tablet from Mycenaean Knossos written in Linear Script B. Such function in the Knossos palace is giving us proof that the cult of the winds was an important one and that its deities existed there. Hesiod mentioned only three of the Wind-gods by their names: Boreas - the north wind, Zephyrus - the west wind, while for Eurus - the east (or southeast) wind, he used the surname Argestus, the bearer of brightness. But also the south wind called by the Greeks Notus was worshipped. During the ancient time a divine family of the winds was growing until eight members. Besides Boreas, Zephyrus, Eurus and Notus another four members were venerated, but they never became well known. Apeliotus - was the southeast wind, Lips or Livos - the southwest wind, Skeiron, the northeast wind (connected with the Attic month June and July - skiroforion) and finally Kaikias, the northwest wind (from the Greek word kakía - "badness"). The myth is saying that the Gods of the Winds were the children of Astraeus, the God of the Night-sky and father of the stars and the Goddess of Morning Eos. According to Homer a ruler over the winds was the king Aeolus. The winds were completely subdued as his instruments, he kept them locked and he let them to go out, when he or the gods wanted.
The cult of the winds was confirmed by the ancient authors on many places of Greece. Always a special, individually named wind was worshipped, which determined the weather at a certain period of the year or at a certain place. The Athenians adored Boreas, who according to the myth abducted Oreithyia, the daughter of the Athenian king Erechtheus. They built a temple to Boreas near the river Ilyssos, because they believed that it was the North Wind who helped them to destroy the Persian fleet. On the other side the Spartans were waiting for the east wind Eurus and its refreshing rain and they called him the Savior of Sparta. In Methana a ritual existed, in which a cock was sacrificed and where they were walking with this animal in procession around the vineyards. This special act had to banish Livos, the southwest wind, which was bringing rain. The inhabitants of the island Keos pursued the sacrifices for the cooling Etesian winds (etisios means "coming back every year"). Also the people of the Greek cities in the southern part of Italy used the sacrifice - of an ass - this time against the evil of the north wind.
The Gods of the Winds are depicted always as the personifications of men with their wings, but usually with different expressions and attributes. This type, a man with wings, was influenced by the Near-Eastern iconography and their belief in Ramman, the god of the wind, thunder and storms, who came to the Syrian mythology as Adad-Ramman. This winged Nature-god was represented on the Near-Eastern cylindrical seals from 15th century BCE, discovered in the Mycenaean necropolis of Perati. Also pictures of the Wind-god were found on some Greek Black-figured vases from 6th century BCE and we noticed that between some miniature ivory figures, depicting some mythological events, this image can be recognized, but such representations were very sporadic. After the Greek-Persian Wars the scenes showing the God of the Wind (and specially Boreas) became more popular. Due to a new interest of the Athenians in Boreas, the myth about North Wind and Oreithyia was in fashion on the Greek Red-figure vases until the Late Classical period.
Boreas - the most coldest and powerful wind - was depicted in the dramatic poses, dressed in a short cloth, which was moving round his body, the same as his curling hair and beard which were like flying. But later on this curly hair and beard were depicted more and more spiky. The vase-painters pictured small wings around his legs, but Pausanias was saying that the god had snake-tails and not normal feet. Also his sons - Zetes and Kalais (the comrades of Jason in the Argo) became winged as they became adults and they were presented again with these small wings around their legs.
Zephyrus, the west wind, was a very fine and a pleasant one. People called him the protector of the plants, because he brought humidity for them. He was represented as a young man with a lovely face and long grooved hair while keeping flowers and fruit in his light wrapper, which was encircling his body. Later on he was named Favonius by the Romans.
The south wind Notus was known as a very dynamic, stormy and dangerous wind especially when seamen were sailing. The Greeks were afraid of him, mainly when he blew together with the north wind. Notus was represented as a young, beardless man with long hair, covered by a short mantle with one open arm. He kept in his hands a vessel for water - hydria - from which all the rain was gushing out.
Eurus, the east wind, was bringing the bad storms, but he was more kind to the people, than his brothers Boreas and Notus. He also was wearing a short mantle encircling his body. He was depicted as a curly-headed man with an unkempt beard and with some sadness in his face. Sometimes he was called Apeliotus and the Romans called him Vulturnus.
But Apeliotus was in reality the name for the southeast wind, which was giving to people a refreshing rain. Therefore they pictured him as a curly-hair man with a friendly expression, dressed in a light cloth and keeping inside his draping cloths some flowers. And his brother Lips (Livos), who was a lukewarm southwest wind, was also bringing rain.
The northwest wind was called by the Athenians Skeiron. According to Pausanias it was a smart wind, which was blowing over the Skeirons' cliffs and Molourian rocks to the sea. The name Skeiron was taken from the mythological events, connected with the king's son of Megara, who was described as an honest man, but according to the other myths Skeiron was a robber. Theseus, when he seized Eleusis, killed him and after established in his honor the Isthmian Games under the protection of Poseidon.
Kaikias, the northeast wind, had a bad name in Greece as the bearer of snow, coldness and blizzards. This was the reason, why he took this name and why he had this image. He was represented as a man with serious features in his face, with a long hair and a beard. Hail is dropping out from his round vessel, which he is always carrying.
To see all the images of the Wind-Gods together, we have to turn our attention to the so called Tower of the Winds in Athens, near of the Roman Agora. The tower, which was built as a horologion (time-clock) in the half part of the first century BCE by the Syrian architect Andronicus Cyrrhestes, was made on the ground-plan of the eight angles. The reliefs of the eight personifications of the winds are decorating the fries, in which from every pertinent side a specific god-wind with his name is represented.
Now to ignore the Afar people in Afrika, would be totally negligent on your part 707 because the Afar people are linked with the Somalis and Oromo which proves they are a ANCIENT people in Afrika. Some sources state that Africa was located West of Kemet/Egypt while I have shown you one ANCIENT Geographer who place Africa below Ethiopia and Libya.
Here is some information on the Afar Tribe.
quote: Location: There are about 1.4 million Afar in the three countries: Ethiopia, Djibouti and Eritrea. The 1998 Ethiopia census reports about 980,000 Afar. Population estimates for Djibouti range from 130,000 to 170,000. Eritrea figures are generally reported as 300,000.
One source I know also reports almost 500,000 of these in Somali, but most sources have indicated they are not actually that far south. This was my conclusion when I investigated that question a few years ago.
In Djibouti the Afars make up about 40% of the population. The previous name of the territory was the French Territory of Afars and Issas, the latter being the tribe of Somalis who are dominant there.
Much of their territory is desert and salt flats, cut by great cracks from the sun's heat. Temperatures are reported to be the hottest on earth.
History: Little is known of the actual specific history of the Afar people. The Afar claim a descent from Arabs, through a mythic Yemeni ancestor, though they differ racially, linguistically and culturally.
This kind of cultural geneological adoption is common among Semitic and Cushitic peoples, such as some Somali clans, who also claim Yemeni Arab descent. Sometimes this reflects cultural ties from an earlier historical period or actual instances of intermarriage, perhaps for a defense alliance.
Popular history gives some insight into the history in the two traditional divisions of the Afar. Tradition indicates that the Asayahamara (The Red Ones) are descended from a group originally invading from the Ethiopian Highlands at one time, who imposed their rule on the Adoyahmara (The White Ones).
It is thought the color designations came from the reddish soil deserts inland, toward the direction the newcomers came from, and the white saline coastal areas, where the Adoyahamara are still more numerous. The Reds remain socially dominant, and claim ownership of the lands, while the Whites tend to be the herders. Both classes are, however, distributed among all the clans of the tribe.
Identity: The Afar are one of the people about whom little is available. Their inaccecssibility makes it difficulat to obtain reliable objective information
Through their myths of origin, the Afar claim Arab descent. Their language, however, and the traditional animistic practices underlying their more recent adherence to Islam, indicate the Afar share a history with neighbouring Cushite peoples. No written Afar records exist from previous eras, and the Afar remain as oral people.
The Afar are a distinct ethnic group, referenced as a separate ethnicity as far back as we have information about peoples of the Horn, though details are few. Every people, though, is related to other peoples, of course. The Afar are a distinct Eastern Cushite people, whose language and culture are related to the Somali and Oromo. They are very traditional in culture and belief, retaining many ancient Cushite animistic practices.
They are a dark brown or black people with Caucasian features, similar to the darker Somali and Oromo. They are likewise distantly related to the ancient Beja group of peoples, who are Southern Cushites, and related in turn to the ancient Egyptian race.
They are referred to by some sources as the Danakil, from the Arabic name of the Danakil Depression, or Desert, near the Red Sea in Ethiopia and Eritrea. The Amharic name for them is Adal. Adal was the name of an ancient Muslim empire that almost defeated the old Abyssinian Empire at one time. They call themselves Afar, which means in their language "The Best" or "First."
The Afar were active in the Arab slave trade, serving as guides to Arab slave traders. A major slave route to Arabia crossed Afar country, with Afar reportedly still actively trading in slaves as recently as 1928.
Language: The Afar speech is classified as a separate language in the Eastern Cushite group. It is most closely related to Saho (Ethiopia and Eritrea), and more distantly related to the Somali and Oromo groups of languages. Linguists generally identify four distinct dialects of Afar, Northern Central, Aussa and Baadu.
Literacy rate in Afar is only about 1%; in Amharic (in Ethiopia) perhaps 3%. In Sudan and Eritrea, Sudanese Arabic is used with neighbours and trading partners
Thank the Arabs for the brainwashing for some of these people with the descent from Yemen etc. though the facts say otherwise, though it is quite possible that the Afar people are the ones who gave AFARIKA-AFRICA= LAND OF AFAR, its name to the Romans, claiming the south west wind is just IGNORANT of the facts that the Afar people are more likely to be the reason for the name AFRICA.
Hotep
There is one glaring problem with all of this. You neglect to accept that the Roman pantheon, at least the di indigetes (from which Africus is derives) are a group of deities NOT based on any other mythology. This is what "di indigetes" means: indigenous gods.
Please don't tell me that you missed this.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Like the fact that there ARE many people in Ethiopia and Eritrea that DO have Yemeni ancestry, whether they claim so or not and are NOT brainwashed by Arabs (even though many are not even Muslim!).
While most (all) Somalis who ARE Muslim never claimed to be Arabs or "brainwashed" by Arabs.
Posts: 26301 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: He's actually missed alot of things.
Like the fact that there ARE many people in Ethiopia and Eritrea that DO have Yemeni ancestry, whether they claim so or not and are NOT brainwashed by Arabs (even though many are not even Muslim!).
While most (all) Somalis who ARE Muslim never claimed to be Arabs or "brainwashed" by Arabs.
Recent ancestry from Yemen is low, though. Paternal Haplotype J is found at 35% among Semitic-speakers, but only ~2% is J-M172 (recent migrations), and a very small percentage of J-M267 lineages carry the motif associated with expansion from Arabia in the 7th century. Note that Ethiopians claim to be the descendents of Queen Makeda (of Sheba) and Solomon, where Queen Makeda is a Queen of Aksum, not of Yemen. That Ethiopians are descended from Yemenis is not traditional, but rather the adaption of recent archaeological evidence to fit past myths.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Do Ethiopians make this claim or only those of the royal families? It seems more than obvious that the whole population doesn't claim royal descent and that there was already a numerous population of Ethiopians that Makeda ruled and was herself a member.
The Kebra Negast national epic has it that there were many more Ethiopians descended from Israelite immigrants sent by Solomon to accompany the Ark than Ethiopians descended from the one and only child of Makeda and Solomon. (Not to forget the boy that Makeda's handmaid had by Solomon.)
quote:Originally posted by Yom: Note that Ethiopians claim to be the descendents of Queen Makeda (of Sheba) and Solomon,
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: Do Ethiopians make this claim or only those of the royal families? It seems more than obvious that the whole population doesn't claim royal descent and that there was already a numerous population of Ethiopians that Makeda ruled and was herself a member.
The Kebra Negast national epic has it that there were many more Ethiopians descended from Israelite immigrants sent by Solomon to accompany the Ark than Ethiopians descended from the one and only child of Makeda and Solomon. (Not to forget the boy that Makeda's handmaid had by Solomon.)
You got it right. Anyone with royal blood can claim to be descended from Solomon (I guess it's more complicated, because you can be related by marriage), but those who do not have any still believe that they are descendents of the Israelites accompanying the Ark of the Covenant.
Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
Unfortunately because Southwest Asia is home of most of the great spiritual beliefs of the world, especially those in Africa, it is not surprising that many Africans (especially those in East Africa right next to Southwest Asia), would claim descent or lineages from these areas. Whether Muhammad's relatives or Solomon's!
Posts: 26301 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
People you fail to grasp the argument at hand here.
The word Africa is based upon the name of a NATIVE ROMAN god.
This precludes any other consideration you may raise.
The name Africus is not based on any external mythology or source. This is confirmed by the simple fact that it is part of the "di indigetes" pantheon.
Do you understand what this phrase means?
It means NATIVE or indigenous gods: native to the Latins.
If you can overcome this observation by all means let us have your argument. If not, please publicly concede that the word African is an inappropriate appellation for original human beings.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
I also heard that the name 'Africa' is also derived from an indigenous North African people called the Afer who were described as "Aethiopian" or "black-skinned" by the Romans.
Posts: 26301 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
^^That's the most likely possibility. Singular "Afer," possibly from Phoenician "`Afar," "earth." (cp. Amharic "Afer," "dust/earth") or another Semitic language, plural "Afri." Afrika = "place of the Afri."
-------------------- "Oh the sons of Ethiopia; observe with care; the country called Ethiopia is, first, your mother; second, your throne; third, your wife; fourth, your child; fifth, your grave." - Ras Alula Aba Nega. Posts: 1024 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Thanks for the link. I don't think there's any argument Abubakari II set sail. The debate comes when the word 'Brazil' pops up.
Posts: 1219 | From: North Carolina, USA | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: I also heard that the name 'Africa' is also derived from an indigenous North African people called the Afer who were described as "Aethiopian" or "black-skinned" by the Romans.
There is no also.
Try to grasp what is being said to you.
Africus is INDIGENOUS to the Latin tribe.
It's a LATIN name.
It is not based on any black tribe. It's not based on external mythology. It is wholly LATIN.
Posts: 12 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
707's stance is wholly untenable and (s)he knows it. Quite simply, Latin dictionaries or lexicons don't list any Latin root for Africa/Africus/Africanus/etc. TKO; End-of-Discussion; No-Debate; but just to recap:
The Latin word is borrowed from Greek (Aphrikê) where, once again, no root exists.
The root is F-R-GH and its from an African language family, Tamazight, spoken by the indigenees the Phoenicians met in Tunis, the Aourigha/Avrigha/Afrigha. The name is still in use.
There's a Kel Tamasheq/Tagelmust (Tuareg) clan, Aourighen. It's well known some Kel Tagelmoust elements moved south under Arab pressure and that Afer covered all of "Roman" North Africans. I have it that the Kabyle also apply the term to the darker (than them) populations south of the Atlas chain, including all so-called "Black Africans."
So why even give a passing nod to 707's fanciful linguistically unsupported etymology? Ignore the enthusiasts' ignorance and keep posting accurate info on Egyptology and other Africana and the disciplines used to support and authenticate the valid knowledge and falsify the bullshit.
quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: The Latin word is borrowed from Greek (Aphrikê) where, once again, no root exists.
The root is F-R-GH and its from an African language family, Tamazight, spoken by the indigenees the Phoenicians met in Tunis, the Aourigha/Avrigha/Afrigha. The name is still in use.
There's a Kel Tamasheq/Tagelmust (Tuareg) clan, Aourighen. It's well known some Kel Tagelmoust elements moved south under Arab pressure and that Afer covered all of "Roman" North Africans. I have it that the Kabyle also apply the term to the darker (than them) populations south of the Atlas chain, including all so-called "Black Africans."
Thanks for the info, Takruri.
Good to know. Posts: 26301 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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707 here is Afrika the deity of Imazaghen\Berber peoples.
Notice the snake, scorpion etc. these are all associated with normal Libyan or Afrikan symbolism.
quote: Berber pantheon From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search The traditional Berber pantheon contains a variety of gods. Although most Berbers are now Muslim (and none profess paganism), vestiges of their previous religion remain, including traditions such as "the bride of Anzar" (literally "rainbow", originally believed to have been a Berber god) among the Kabyles.
Afrika: a Berber goddess. Afrika: a Berber goddess. Amun: An oracle god, introduced by the Libyans into Egypt Antaeus : A giant from Libya, also found in Greek Mythology Anzar: god of the rain among the Kabyles. Berber: The first god Guraya: Name of a saint in Kabylie; sponsor of Bgayet and is also found in Tipasa. Idir: Name of a divinity. From Edder, to live, which is also found in Baliddir:"the alive God".(Ball or Baal:suffix from Phoenician meaning: god or lord) Iguc: or Iyuc (as is frequent in Berber, G, becomes Y, etc), god of the rain at Berghwata of Morocco. Lilu: a Berber god, synonymous with rainwater. Probably alternative of Illu, a god among the Tuaregs. Makurgun: Berber god, of Punico-Berber origin. Ifru: the ethymology of this name is probably related to the verb Fru: to regulate, solve, sort. Maqurtum: an Amazigh God of Punico-Berber origin. Nabel: name of a divinity, Sinifer: God of war among the Luwata. Suggen: or Seggen, name of a Berber divinity, name which is nowadays found in Aïn Me Lila - Algeria. Tililwa: name of a Berber divinity. Warsisima: an Amazigh Berber God, this name is a composed name: name + prefix: wer+isem (without name) Warsutima: name of a Berber divinity, made up of wer + utim. Wihinam: name of a Berber divinity. Yam: name of a Berber divinity. Yukus: Berber god, alternative: Yakuc, Yunan: Berber god. Yur: the moon, but also a Berber god.
I've always wondered about the pre-Islamic beliefs of the Berber peoples. Do you know any other sources bearing such info??
Posts: 26301 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by alTakruri: OK, once again here's the translation of the source of all we definitely know about Mali officially seeking to find what lay beyond the empire's sunset into the Atlantic, probably from Senegal doubtfully from Nigeria.
quote: Says ibn Amir Hajib “I asked the Sultan Musa how it was that power came into his hands. ‘We are from a house that transmits power by heritage,’ he told me. ‘The ruler who preceded me would not believe that it was impossible to discover the limits of the neighbouring sea. He wanted to find out and persisted in his plans. He had 200 ships equipped and filled them with men, and the same number of ships filled with gold, water and supplies in sufficient quantities to last for years. He told those who commanded them: return only when you have reached the extremity of the ocean or when you have exhausted your food and water. They went away; their absence was long before any of them returned. Finally, a sole ship reappeared. We asked the captain about their adventure. Prince, he replied, we sailed for a long time when we encountered in mid-ocean something like a river with violent current. My ship was last. The others sailed on, gradually each entered this place, they disappeared and did not come back. As for me, I returned to where I was and did not enter that current.
But the emperor did not want to believe him. He equipped 2,000 more vessels and conferred power on me and left with his companion on the ocean. This was the last time I saw him and the others, and I remained absolute master of the empire”.
Shihab al-Din ibn Fadi al-Umari Gaudefroy-Demombynes (trans Masilik el Absar Paris: Librarie Orientaliste Paul Guenther, 1927 74-5
The text precedes any "pre-Columbian" scholar or scholarship by a good 400 years. Any such "scholars" would be fools to suggest no such text exists or is relevent to African presence in the Americas under their own power not as objects of or participants in other people's ventures across the Atlantic.
The above is quoted in Introduction to African Civilizations John G. Jackson - and is related by Basil Davidson in a 1969 article
However I see a similar yet different translation by the same author which also has am additional statement preceeding the above and yet the reference is cited as the same:
[5] Al-Umari, 1927, Masalik al Absar fi Mamalik el-Amsar, French translation by Gaudefroy-Demombynes, Paris, Paul Geuthner, 1927, pp. 59, 74-75. See also Qalqashandi, Subh al-A'sha, V, 294.
"In the North of Mali there live white Berbers under their ruler. Their tribes are Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna ... I asked their ruler Sultan Musa Ibn Amir Hajib (who was in Egypt returning from the pilgrimage): "How had you become ruler?" He replied: "We belong to a family where the son succeeds the father in power. The ruler who preceded me did not believe that it was impossible to reach the extremity of the ocean that encircles the earth (meaning Atlantic), and wanted to reach to that (end) and obstinately persisted in the design. So he equipped two hundred boats full of men, as many others full of gold, water and victuals sufficient enough for several years. He ordered the chief (admiral) not to return until they had reached the extremity of the ocean, or if they had exhausted the provisions and the water. They set out. Their absence extended over a long period, and, at last, only one boat returned. On our questioning, the captain said: 'Prince, we have navigated for a long time, until we saw in the midst of the ocean as if a big river was flowing violently. My boat was the last one; others were ahead of me. As soon as any of them reached this place, it drowned in the whirlpool and never came out. I sailed backwards to escape this current.' But the Sultan would not believe him. He ordered two thousand boats to be equipped for him and for his men, and one thousand more for water and victuals. Then he conferred on me the regency during his absence, and departed with his men on the ocean trip, never to return nor to give a sign of life .[5]"
This is notable in that it says " "In the North of Mali there live white Berbers" (possibly mulatto in this context) I don't have information as to whether or not the other version had a similar statement preceeding what is quoted above at top.
It is also notable that in both versions Akubakari is not mentioned!
And importantly, if the account is true, there is no indication in the account that they reached land successfully, merely that they were not heard from again
quote:This is notable in that it says " "In the North of Mali there live white Berbers" (possibly mulatto in this context)
By white is not meant white as Europeans, but light skin by complexion. Tribal members like Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna, in Europe or America these people would be considered black.
Dana posted on this many times. Including the texted you've cited.
Think of it like this:
Stated by Tariq Berry -
quote: "White أبيض
One of these misunderstood terms is the term “white” ابيض . Most people think that when the Arabs of the past described a person’s complexion as “white”, they meant the same light complexion that is meant today. This isn’t true at all. When the Arabs described a person as “white”, they actually meant a dark complexion. Ibn Mandour, the well-known Arab linguist who was born in the 13th century AD and the author of the famous book on the Arabic language Lisan Al Arab, quotes from another famous book on the Arabic language called Al Tahdheeb the following:
“When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he has a pure, clean, faultless integrity…They don’t mean that he has white skin, but they mean to speak well of his honor and the purity of his integrity. When they say that a person has a white face, they mean that his complexion is free from blotches and a blackness that is unattractive”.
The author of Al Tahdheeb is Mas’ud ibn Umar Sa’ad Al Deen Al Taftaazaani, the well-known Arab linguist who lived during the same time as Ibn Mandour.
Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”. The Arabic definition of a white complexion is “al lown al hinti bi hilya sawdaa” اللون الحنطي بحلية سوداء . “Al lown” means complexion, “al hinti” means light brown, and “bi hilya sawdaa” means with a black appearance. It’s a black complexion with a light-brownish undertone. The “hilya” of a person is what’s apparent in his/her color or appearance. So a person with a “hilya” (appearance) “sawdaa” (black) has a black appearance. So a person called “white” ابيض by the Arabs of the past had a blackish complexion with a light-brown undertone.
So anyone who reads someone being described as “white” in an Arabic book of the past should understand that “white” means a dark complexion. It’s very important that people bear this in mind....
Green أخضر
Most people are unaware of the fact that the Arabs of the past used the term “green” for black. Black and green were used interchangeably. This is why black-skinned Al Fadl Ibn Al Abbas Ibn ‘Utba Ibn Abi Lahab said:
'I am the green (black) one. I am well-known. My skin is green (black). I am from the noble house of the Arabs. Whoever crosses swords with me, will cross swords with one who is noble and strong.'"
"Red أحمر
Since in the past the term “white” was used for a person whose complexion was like a “black” person today, one must wonder what it is that the Arabs of the past called people who were “white” in the sense that the word is used today. In the past, those who had complexions like those who are considered “white” today were called red. Tha’alab, the Arabic language scholar of the 9th century AD says, “The Arabs don’t say that a man is white because of a white complexion. ‘White’ to the Arabs means that a person is pure, without any faults. If they meant that his complexion was ‘white’, they said ‘red’”.
Ibn Mandour says that the expression The Red People applies to the non-Arabs because of their whiteness and because of the fact that most of them are fair-skinned. He says that the Arabs used to call the non-Arabs such as the Romans and the Persians and their neighbors, The Red People. He also says that when the Arabs say that someone is white, they mean that he has a noble character–they don’t mean that he is white. He says that the Arabs call the slaves The Red People. This is because most of the slaves of the Arabs were white (red). Click below for original in Arabic.
Al Dhahabi says “Red, in the speech of the people from the Hijaz, means fair-complexioned and this color is rare amongst the Arabs. This is the meaning of the saying ‘…(He was) a red man as if he is one of the slaves’. The speaker meant that his color is like that of the slaves who were captured from the Christians of Syria, Rome, and Persia”. So it must be understood that what people call “white” today was called “red” by the Arabs of the past. Click below for original in Arabic."
Tariq Berry, the explanation on color complexion by Arabic means.
quote: I assume that you don't believe that the Arabs of the past used the term "abyad" to mean a complexion much darker than what the term means today. I assume that you don't believe that the term "abyad" meant to the Arabs of the past a complexion which is considered black today. So let's begin with the definition of "abyad". Al-Imam Al-Hafidh Al-Dhahabi says in volume 2 of his book Siyar A'alaam Al-Nubalaa:
إن العرب إذا قالت : فلان أبيض ، فإنهم يريدون الحنطي اللون بحلية سوداء
"Verily, when the Arabs said that so-and-so was abyad (white), they meant that he had a hinti complexion with a black hilya."
Now. To show readers what is meant by a hinti complexion, I'm posting a link to a person described as hinti complexioned in Arabic:
Next to the photo is written: لون البشرة : حنطي (Complexion: Hinti)
Remember that Al-Imam Al-Hafidh Al-Dhahabi describes abyad (white) as a hinti complexion WITH A BLACK HILYA. The hilya of a person is what is apparent in a person's color or appearance. In his book Lisaan Al-Arab, Ibn Mandhour describes hilya as "appearance":
So Al-Imam Al-Hafidh Al-Dhahabi describes abyad (white) not simply as hinti complexioned, but as a hinti complexion WITH A BLACK APPEARANCE. Do you disagree with anything I've said so far?
"Rapid and catastrophic environmental changes in the Holocene and human response" first joint meeting of IGCP 490 and ICSU Environmental catastrophes in Mauritania, the desert and the coast January 4-18, 2004
Field conference departing from Atar Atar, Mauritania
Organizers Suzanne Leroy, Aziz Ballouche, Mohamed Salem Ould Sabar, and Sylvain Philip (Hommes et Montagnes travel agency)
View Abstracts Conference Homepage
What is the impact of Holocene climatic changes on human societies: analysis of Neolithic population dynamic and dietary customs. by Jousse, Helene
UMR Paléoenvironnements et Paléobiosphère, Université Claude Bernard Lyon 1, Villeurbanne, France.
quote: The reconstruction of human cultural patterns in relation to environmental variations is an essential topic in modern archaeology.
In western Africa, a first Holocene humid phase beginning c. 11,000 years BP is known from the analysis of lacustrine sediments (Riser, 1983 ; Gasse, 2002). The monsoon activity increased and reloaded hydrological networks (like the Saharan depressions) leading to the formation of large palaeolakes. The colonisation of the Sahara by vegetation, animals and humans was then possible essentially around the topographic features like Ahaggar (fig. 1). But since 8,000 years BP, the climate began to oscillate towards a new arid episode, and disturbed the ecosystems (Jolly et al., 1998; Jousse, 2003).
First, the early Neolithics exploited the wild faunas, by hunting and fishing, and occupied small sites without any trace of settlement in relatively high latitudes. Then, due to the climatic deterioration, they had to move southwards.
This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
Whereas the Middle Neolithic is relatively well-known, the situation obviously becomes more complex and less information is available concerning local developments in late Neolithic times.. Only some cultural affiliations existed between the populations of Araouane and Kobadi in the Mema. Elsewhere, and especially along the Atlantic coast and in the Dhar Tichitt and Nema, the question of the origin of Neolithic peopling remains unsolved.
A study of the palaeoenvironment of those refugia was performed by analysing antelopes ecological requirements (Jousse, submitted). It shows that even if the general climate was drying from 5,000 – 4,000 yr BP in the Sahara and Sahel, edaphic particularities of these refugia allowed the persistence of local gallery forest or tree savannas, where humans and animals could have lived (fig. 2). At the same time, cultural innovation like agriculture, cattle breeding, social organisation in villages are recognised. For the moment, the relation between the northern and the southern populations are not well known.
How did humans react against aridity? Their dietary behaviour are followed along the Holocene, in relation with the environment, demographic expansion, settling process and emergence of productive activities.
- The first point concerns the pastoralism. The progression of cattle pastoralism from eastern Africa (fig. 3) is recorded from 7,400 yr BP in the Ahaggar and only from 4,400 yr BP in western Africa. This trend of breeding activities and human migrations can be related to climatic evolution. Since forests are infested by Tse-Tse flies preventing cattle breeding, the reduction of forest in the low-Sahelian belt freed new areas to be colonised. Because of the weakness of the archaeozoological material available, it is difficult to know what was the first pattern of cattle exploitation.
- A second analysis was carried on the resources balance, between fishing-hunting-breeding activities. The diagrams on figures 4 and 5 present the number of species of wild mammals, fishes and domestic stock, from a literature compilation. Fishing is known around Saharan lakes and in the Niger. Of course, it persisted with the presence of water points and even in historical times, fishing became a specialised activity among population living in the Niger Interior Delta. Despite the general environmental deterioration, hunting does not decrease thanks to the upholding of the vegetation in these refugia (fig. 2). On the contrary, it is locally more diversified, because at this local scale, the game diversity is closely related to the vegetation cover. Hence, the arrival of pastoral activities was not prevalent over other activities in late Neolithic, when diversifying resources appeared as an answer to the crisis.
This situation got worse in the beginning of historic times, from 2,000 yr BP, when intense settling process and an abrupt aridity event (Lézine & Casanova, 1989) led to a more important perturbation of wild animals communities. They progressively disappeared from the human diet, and the cattle, camel and caprin breeding prevailed as today.
Gasse, F., 2002. Diatom-inferred salinity and carbonate oxygen isotopes in Holocene waterbodies of the western Sahara and Sahel (Africa). Quaternary Science Reviews: 717-767.
Jolly, D., Harrison S. P., Damnati B. and Bonnefille R. , 1998. Simulated climate and biomes of Africa during the late Quaternary : Comparison with pollen and lake status data. Quaternary Science Review 17: 629-657.
Jousse H., 2003. Impact des variations environnementales sur la structure des communautés mammaliennes et l'anthropisation des milieux: exemple des faunes holocènes du Sahara occidental. Thèse de l’Université Lyon 1, 405 p.
Jousse H, 2003. Using archaeological fauna to calibrate palaeovegetation: the Holocene Bovids of western Africa. Submit to Quaternary Science Reviews in november 2003, référence: QSR 03-333.
Lézine, A. M. and J. Casanova, 1989. Pollen and hydrological evidence for the interpretation of past climate in tropical West Africa during the Holocene. Quaternary Science Review 8: 45-55.
Riser, J., 1983. Les phases lacustres holocènes. Sahara ou Sahel ? Quaternaire récent du bassin de Taoudenni (Mali). Marseille: 65-86.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: [QB] [QUOTE]This is notable in that it says " "In the North of Mali there live white Berbers" (possibly mulatto in this context)
By white is not meant white as Europeans, but light skin by complexion. Tribal members like Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna, in Europe or America these people would be considered black.
Dana posted on this many times. Including the texted you've cited.
Think of it like this:
Stated by Tariq Berry -
quote: "White أبيض
One of these misunderstood terms is the term “white” ابيض . Most people think that when the Arabs of the past described a person’s complexion as “white”, they meant the same light complexion that is meant today. This isn’t true at all. When the Arabs described a person as “white”, they actually meant a dark complexion.
The people you have posted are not of a a dark complexion
Your second long post here on climate is off topic It's disruptive to the readability of the thread, regardless if it's "nice information"
Posts: 42940 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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I know you have difficulty with prossessing the info.
I will explain it, ... once more.
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
quote: In the North of Mali there live white Berbers under their ruler. Their tribes are Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna ..
The journal speaks of migrations of humans. And inhabitation, the sub-case is climatoly.
quote:This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
So, why did I post it, because of your disruptive manners.
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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Carlos Benitez-Torres (Summer Institute of Linguistics) & Anthony Grant (Edge Hill University)
The Origin of Northern Songhay Languages: a Comparative Study of mixed language genesis
Tadaksahak, Tagdal and Tasawaq are three Northern Songhay languages located in the Republic of Niger, with Tadaksahak straddling the border between Niger and Mali. Benítez-Torres (2009) suggests that Tagdal, and by extension Tadaksahak, is a mixed language. In other words, they are the result of bilingualism between Tamashaq (Berber) and Songhay, with speakers at one time using their normal speech patterns to underline and establish a separate social identity. (In this respect they are similar to Kwarandzyey, a Nothern Songhay language spoken in Tabelbala, Algeria; Souag 2010). Lexically Songhay elements are core but are outnumbered by elements from Tamashaq (and to a lesser extent other languages such as Hausa and Arabic). In this paper, certain structures of all three Northern Songhay languages are compared. First, we discuss certain aspects of the inflectional morphological structures of the three languages - the pronominal sub-system, the TAM sub-system and negation. Then certain derivational structures - specifically, the Causative, Passive Voice and the Reflexive constructions – are discussed and compared.
Afterward, we compare the three langages to other languages that were the result of contact. Finally, tentative conclusions are drawn concerning the origins of all three languages, and we suggest some possible theoretical implications for the formation of mixed languages as a whole.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: ^^^
I know you have difficulty with prossessing the info.
I will explain it, ... once more.
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
quote: In the North of Mali there live white Berbers under their ruler. Their tribes are Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna ..
The journal speaks of migrations of humans. And inhabitation, the sub-case is climatoly.
quote:This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
So, why did I post it, because of your disruptive manners.
You didn't explian anything. You have a quote about refuges in the Sahelian belt and have not explained how that relates to the people or what is being discussed
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol # Ish Gebor: ^^^
I know you have difficulty with prossessing the info.
I will explain it, ... once more.
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
quote: In the North of Mali there live white Berbers under their ruler. Their tribes are Antasar, Yantar'aras, Meddusa and Lemtuna ..
The journal speaks of migrations of humans. And inhabitation, the sub-case is climatoly.
quote:This context leads us to consider the notion of refugia. Figure 1 presents the main zones colonised by humans in western Africa. When the fossil valleys of Azaouad, Tilemsi and Azaouagh became dry, after ca. 5,000 yr BP, humans had to find refuges in the Sahelian belt, and gathered around topographic features (like the Adrar des Iforas, and the Mauritanians Dhar) and major rivers, especially the Niger Interior Delta, called the Mema.
So, why did I post it, because of your disruptive manners.
You didn't explian anything. You have a quote about refuges in the Sahelian belt and have not explained how that relates to the people or what is being discussed
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
Similarly it's semantics to call Barack Obama "black'
What has Obama to do with the subject? We speak of populations from South-Central Sahara.LOL
Anyway, in America he, just like those other individuals is black, as I have stated before in my previous posts.
quote: They were physically indistinguishable from the other indigenous inhabitants of early North Africa and, at the end of the Roman Empire, were often categorized as Berbers.
quote: The Tuareg are descended from Berbers in the region that is now Libya, and also from ancient Saharan peoples. Following the independence of African countries in the 1960s, Tuareg territory was artificially divided into modern nations: Niger, Mali, Algeria, Libya, and Burkina Faso. The Tuareg adopted camel nomadism, along with its distinctive form of social organization, from camel-herding Arabs about two thousand years ago.
quote: Shams Al Deen Mohamed ibn Ahmed ibn Othman Al Dhahabi, a well-known historian also of the 13th century, says in his famous book Siyar A’alaam Al Nubalaa, “When the Arabs say that a person is white, they mean that he is black with a light-brownish undertone”.
It's semantics.
Similarly it's semantics to call Barack Obama "black'
Posts: 22244 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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The population of Algeria is 35,190,000 (January 2009 est.), with 99% classified ethnically as Arab or Berber. About 90% of Algerians live in the northern, coastal area; the minority who inhabit the Sahara are mainly concentrated in oases, although some 1.5 million remain nomadic or partly nomadic. Almost 30% of Algerians are under the age of 15. Algeria has the fourth lowest fertility rate in the Greater Middle East, after those of Cyprus, Tunisia, and Turkey.
The ethnic ancestry of most Algerians is composed of Berbers (mostly Zenatas and Numidians) and Middle-East populations who settled Northwest Africa at various period of the history such as ancient Punics and Arabs (such as Banu Hilal tribes)."
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