Egypt rejects German offer on handing 90 mummies to Egypt against Nefertiti bust
Egypt's Supreme Council of Antiquities (SCA) rejected an offer made by the director of the Berlin-based Egyptian Museum who suggested that his government is ready to hand Egypt 90 pharaonic mummies kept by the museum against Cairo's silence on restoring the Nefertiti bust which is also kept by the same museum.
Secretary General of the SCA Zahi Hawwas said these mummies are not royal and of no importance.
"They among other pieces were smuggled from Egypt during the 19th century," Hawwas said.
He pointed out that Egypt is adamant to retrieve the precious antiquities stolen or smuggled outside the country, and he will call for an urgent meeting to determine Egypt's stance towards the international museums which reject Egypt's demands in this regard.
I wonder if how worse the situation will get for the UN to intervene.
Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
The Nefertiti bust, so-called discovered in 1912 by German excavator, Ludwig Borchardt, is a complete fraud. "The circumstances of its export to the Berlin museum were the source of controversy at the time." It's been suggested that Borchardt some of the painting himself and did not go on exhibit until 1924.
So as you can see, the Germans have no choice. They have to keep this bust hence why they rather return 90 real mummies back to Egypt. Only small fragments of the Nefertiti bust are needed for examination in any of the many professionally equipped independent labs around the world to prove the age, origin and dye type used for the painting as well as the dye origin. Perhaps the German don't want to take that chance.
"One of the great forgeries of the 19th century which has already been proven is that of the famous Queen Tetisheri. The statue of “Queen Tetisheri” was purchased by the British Museum in 1890, and this fake piece (with its facial features resembling most Europeans) was paraded around the world until it was first suspected as a fraud in 1984. This fake Tetisheri statue was showcased in the British Museum special exhibit on forgeries in 1990, but not before this forgery fooled experts and deceived the world for 100 years!" ( http://www.raceandhistory.com/manu/update.htm )
Ironically, in the same year of 1912, Charles Dawson 'discovered' the fake - British missing link - the Piltdown man. This hoax lasted 40 years. More European lies, fabrication all to construct pastes which they never had. ( http://www.geocities.com/wally_mo/nefertiti.html )
Posted by alTakruri (Member # 10195) on :
Not royal = no importance???
Oh ho ho, is that so?
How behind the times is this Supreme Ass? Studying the rank and file is the current trend in fields related to ancient and historic peoples and their realms.
I SMELL A RAT!
quote: Tuesday, October 02, 2007
Egypt rejects German offer on handing 90 mummies to Egypt against Nefertiti bust
A BIIIIIG rat, one that places a possibly FAKE white Lizabeth Taylor looking WHITE SUPREMACY wet dream over ACTUAL, probably BLACK AFRICAN looking mummies in terms of importance.....
Go figure.
Posted by Tigerlily (Member # 3567) on :
Germany lends statue to Egypt for show
October 03 2007 at 02:01AM
Cairo - Egypt said on Tuesday that Germany had agreed to return a 4 500-year-old ancient Egyptian statue for a temporary exhibition at the inauguration of the new Egyptian Museum in 2011.
Antiquity supremo Zahi Hawass said the Roman and Pelizaeus Museum in Hildesheim had agreed to lend Egypt the seated statue of Hemiunu , architect of the Great Pyramid of Giza.
The famous statue is one of five that Hawass wants for the new museum's opening, including more controversially the bust of Nefertiti and the Rosetta stone.
"Germany's acceptance is the first acceptance we get in our attempt to retrieve five pieces of antiquity for the opening of the new museum," Hawass said in a statement.
In April, Egypt and Germany had a row over the 3 400-year-old bust of Queen Nefertiti with Egypt threatening to ban future displays of its ancient artifacts in Germany if Berlin refused to return the statue.
Cairo and Berlin have frequently crossed swords over the limestone bust, which was unearthed by German archaeologists in an artist's studio on the banks of the Nile and taken to Germany under a 1913 agreement.
Hawass has made it his mission to retrieve Egypt's widely scattered antiquities that can be found in museums around the world.
The new Grand Egyptian Museum is scheduled to open in 2011 near the site of the Great Pyramids at Giza, outside Cairo.
Hemiunu was a vizier during the reign of his uncle, Cheops, and is credited for having been the architect of that king's pyramid at Giza.
quote:So as you can see, the Germans have no choice. They have to keep this bust hence why they rather return 90 real mummies back to Egypt. Only small fragments of the Nefertiti bust are needed for examination in any of the many professionally equipped independent labs around the world to prove the age
^ Yes but Hawass will never allow any such examination.
Anyway he is right not to accept 9000 mummies in exchange for Berlin Bust.
You don't negotiate with terrorism.
You realise if Hawass made such a deal, he would be contractually legitimazing theft.
I do agree that his comments about mummies of *no importance* is telling.
They really aren't important to either the Germans or to Hawass because they are not useful for furthering either German or Hawass racist agenda. Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ I agree with Takruri, something is up here. They are willing to trade 90 mummies in place of just one bust?! IMHO one bust is not worth all that-- 90 preserved human bodies.
Could the Nefertiti bust be a fake? Again, we don't know for sure. The bust is not inscribed, but the style of make doesn't seem that unauthentic. The actual features of the bust don't look uncommon for indigenous Africans from that part of the continent, but the complexion seems a little pale.
I don't want to get back into that argument again that was held most recently here.
I just want to say that either the Germans know something about the bust they're not saying, or they put too much pride and exaltion on to that bust (which Hitler himself did when he claimed she was an example of "Aryan" beauty)!
As for Hemiunu, that statue is actually defiled since it was found by Egyptologists with its nose broken off and was then 'reconstructed' with a new nose.
quote:Originally posted by rasol: I do agree that his comments about mummies of *no importance* is telling.
They really aren't important to either the Germans or to Hawass because they are not useful for furthering either German or Hawass racist agenda.
^ But I don't see how the royal mummies would further such an agenda either! Posted by Arwa (Member # 11172) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
You don't negotiate with terrorism.
LOL! Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol: they are not useful for furthering either German or Hawass racist agenda.
Could you clarify what you mean by "German racist agenda"?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features. This bust gets far too much attention from those who feel it represents "them". There are many other busts of the SAME woman that DON'T look like the Berlin bust, but they hardly get the time of day. Wonder why? Out of ALL the well preserved and beautiful images of men and women in Egypt why is THIS one declared as the most beautiful and most important? OBVIOUSLY part of it has to do with faux "racial" pride in something that MAY NOT be accurate to begin with and CERTAINLY does not represent the overwhelming majority phenotype in ancient Egypt.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features.
So Germans have an agenda to promote ancient Egyptians as European looking?
Yeah, right ... Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ For the record, I don't know about most Germans today but back then Hitler did say the bust was a perfect example of 'Aryan' beauty! LOL
As for "European features", again this discussion was held before. The bust's features are not uncommon to black Africans from other others of North Africa as well as the Horn region. It is not the features that I find so unsual about the piece, so much as the complexion which is very fair compared to usual Egyptian painted pieces.
Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: So Germans have an agenda to promote ancient Egyptians as European looking?
Dalia*, exactly correct. I know it tool 3 rolling eyes icons later, but yes, that is exactly what the Germans attempted to do. The "Germans have an agenda to promote ancient Egyptians as European looking." Along with the French, British, US. Have you checked out that National Geographics cover of King Tut? Ohhh no? You really should. It is a classic European self revealing, in your face plagarism; complete with a gold mask of the real King Tut faded in the background and the title over the newly modified 3D-Tut reading "The New King Tut". You really should find the magazine and browse through it.
Hope you find a copy. Happy reading! Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features.
So Germans have an agenda to promote ancient Egyptians as European looking?
Yeah, right ...
I can understand the skepticism; perhaps there are reasons to question the authenticity of the bust in question, but the rationale Doug provided didn't hold up to scrutiny in past discourse.
Posted by Dalia* (Member # 10593) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ For the record, I don't know about most Germans today but back then Hitler did say the bust was a perfect example of 'Aryan' beauty! LOL
Exactly, you obviously don't know much about Germans today if you throw a Hitler quote into a discussion about current day Germans' attitude.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features.
So Germans have an agenda to promote ancient Egyptians as European looking?
Yeah, right ...
I can understand the skepticism; perhaps there are reasons to question the authenticity of the bust in question, but the rationale Doug provided didn't hold up to scrutiny in past discourse.
In the context of the COLORING of the bust YES it is promoting images from Egypt that can be construed as white European looking. Most people who look at it, especially of European descent, do not consider that bust as looking the least bit African, especially not black African. And I dare say that the words of Jablonski and Hawass are proof of that, as they would consider this a perfect example of the tanned white Egyptians they talk about. So why mock my words? You know very well that this bust is not touted or viewed by these museums as the least bit African, no matter whether YOU view it as African or not. Actually I agree that the features are indigenous to Africa. I also see the light golden brown color as being similar to the light tones used for females in other Egyptian art. However, it is also true that many Eurocentrics like to interpret such colors literally in all cases, whether they are symbolic or not. This is part of an overall pattern of deception that we have all commented on and you know what I mean. Those promoting this bust, just like that of Hemiunu or the seated scribe in the Louvre or other pale "tanned" looking images from Egypt are NOT promoting any sort of African identity for these statues.
Of course, these are the African looking features that we agree are similar to those of Nefertiti:
Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features. - Doug M
Doug M,
Call this a mock or whatever, but these questions warrant answers:
What is "European looking" in scientific terms? What about this scientific definition, that makes it abnormal in the Nile Valley, and hence the bust?
Define 'white' as you've used it above? In scientific terms, where does this 'white', and 'black' begin and end respectively?
Thanks.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features. - Doug M
Doug M,
Call this a mock or whatever, but these questions warrant answers:
What is "European looking" in scientific terms? What about this scientific definition, that makes it abnormal in the Nile Valley, and hence the bust?
Define 'white' as you've used it above? In scientific terms, where does this 'white', and 'black' begin and end respectively?
Thanks.
It is mocking because you purposely are taking my words out of context. What I am saying is that THEY are pushing these features as WHITE EUROPEAN LOOKING. This is no different than them promoting other images like the reconstruction of King Tut as white European looking. I am not saying that either Nefertiti OR King Tut was WHITE or EUROPEAN. I am saying that this bust of Nefertiti is PRIZED by Hawass and the Germans because THEY can push it as white and European looking. The point being that THEY are wrong.
Therefore, the people you NEED to bea asking about SCIENTIFIC evidence for white European looking ancient Egyptians is Hawass, Jablonski and those other Eurocentrics who PROMOTE ancient Egypt as such.
Got it?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Let me see if I've "got it":
So, you weren't saying that *to you*, the bust is what you call "white" with "Eurpean looking features", even though this is something that you've pushed for in past discourse, right?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I don't think you have "got it". But again, this is because you seem to be oblivious to those who really ARE pushing ancient Egypt as WHITE or EUROPEAN looking in order to focus on NITPICKING every word out of my mouth. As I said, I think you are missing the point completely, which is those who are PURPOSELY using such images to portray the ancient Egyptians as WHITES or TANNED whites, which is a fact.
Posted by Clyde Winters (Member # 10129) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: I don't think you have "got it". But again, this is because you seem to be oblivious to those who really ARE pushing ancient Egypt as WHITE or EUROPEAN looking in order to focus on NITPICKING every word out of my mouth. As I said, I think you are missing the point completely, which is those who are PURPOSELY using such images to portray the ancient Egyptians as WHITES or TANNED whites, which is a fact.
Why are you using the term "white" when you claim you don't believe in the concept of race?
.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I don't think you have "got it".
Which makes sense, since you don't appear to have "got what" it is that you are saying, as your no-answer to a direct question testifies.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ As to the issue of the color of the bust, again I must say that it's likely most of the original coloring of the bust has been lost. I have seen quite a few older photos of the bust with darker splotches or spots which are most visible under certain angles of lighting.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Djehuti, Mystery AND Clyde Winters, where did I say Nefertiti was white or European looking?
This is insanity. For those who seem not to be able to comprend English, I said that it is the WHITE SUPREMACISTS who view the Berlin Bust as an example of WHITE EUROPEAN features among the ancient Egyptian people. And, THIS is why Hawass and others are so WORRIED about this sculpture, more so than the OTHER sculptures and artifacts that are held in Berlin, because THEY believe that the ancient Egyptians were WHITE PEOPLE. All of which is TOTAL NONSENSE.
What part of that do ANY of you not understand?
I cannot see how ANYONE reading the above could construe that into meaning that I MYSELF am saying that Queen Nefertiti was white or European looking. NO SHE WAS NOT, at least in my opinion.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
I don't think you have "got it".
Which makes sense, since you don't appear to have "got what" it is that you are saying, as your no-answer to a direct question testifies.
The only thing I GOT is that Queen Nefertiti was NOT WHITE or EUROPEAN, but if you feel she was then so be it. Otherwise who cares about one sculpture, other than those who WANT to use it for THEIR OWN propaganda, like Hitler and Hawass, the champion of the NON AFRICAN "OTHER WHITE MEAT" Egyptians. There is no need to pretend that there isn't such a view among WHITE SUPREMACISTS, Hawass or others. And yes they would tell you to YOUR FACES that the bust of Nefertiti in Berlin represents a WHITE PERSON.
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Clyde Winters: Why are you using the term "white" when you claim you don't believe in the concept of race?
I use the term white to describe the people of Europe who call themselves whites, which is in reverse of the people of Kemet who called themselves blacks.
Race or subspecies is biologically invalid among humans according to most biologists.
There is no contradiction involved, in denoting any of the above facts.
You *think* there is a contradiction because you think skin color proves race.
You think this is self evidently so, because *the white man taught you this*, but this is also scientifically invalid, so.....
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Djehuti, Mystery AND Clyde Winters, where did I say Nefertiti was white or European looking?
Here:
Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features. - Doug M
You came back with your usual long-winded posts, asking me if I got your mentality, to which I wrote:
Let me see if I've "got it":
So, you weren't saying that *to you*, the bust is what you call "white" with "Eurpean looking features", even though this is something that you've pushed for in past discourse, right?
^Which you could have simply answered with a yes or no answer. Your response instead, was to nag on without direction. Is that insane? Yes.
If learning how to speak basic English will enable you to *directly* answer the question, then please do so.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
No. I said that Hawass and others feel and would TELL YOU to your face it represents white and European looking features and MOST CERTAINLY Hawass would represent it as WHITE..... so argue with them. Many people could and do take the features of the Nefertiti bust as being WHITE and/or European looking. The point I am making is people who DO have such an opinion are wrong and that she was NOT white or European looking. Females in Egyptian art are often depicted in colors from light golden brown, tannish to even pink, but that does not mean that is how they actually LOOKED. However, many of the WHITE SUPREMACISTS in Egyptology will hold up any lighter images of women and men as "supreme" examples of ancient Egyptian features which they say represent a majority WHITE population. I view the Nefertiti bust as no different. Again there is nothing confusing about this except your need to find a way to pick an argument on something.
So are you disagreeing with the fact that WHITE SUPREMACY upholds the Nefertiti bust as a supreme example of WHITE FOLKS and EUROPEANS in ancient Egypt, which is why WHITES don't want to part with it in the first place to the not quite pure so-called whites of Egypt? That is the question and that was the point of my post, which is that:
WHITE SUPREMACY is
quote:Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features. - Doug M
Which they are doing and will continue to do and won't stop doing because that is what Egyptology is designed to do, which is bring Egypt closer to Europe in terms of phenotype and culture than anything African.
Again, nothing in that statement reflects ANYTHING about how I PERSONALLY view the statue. But to be clear, YES that ONE statue does have features that look WHITE and European looking, mainly because of the color. Of course, I don't believe that is how she actually looked in real life either. In my opinion she may have looked like this:
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
You are intellectually challenged to answer a straightforward question about *your* own statement, and you want people to question Hawass and co. about it. Funny, but you are dismissed.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Read above. I answered the question.
There is nothing else that needs to be said.
But of course, your inability to face up to the fact that Hawass and company DO have the opinion that the ancient Egyptians where white and many white Europeans feel that that many of them were European looking is obvious as well. Otherwise, what is the point of all this if not to make pretend that somehow I believe she was white or European when YOU KNOW that I don't believe this. That is absolutely funny. Oh, but I get it. Now it is about how I define white and European looking. Well... it means white and with features found commonly among Europeans Duh. That does not mean that features found among Europeans are EXCLUSIVE to Europe or lighter skinned populations. It also does not mean that Nefertiti was white or from Europe, but that is obvious.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
How about you answer these questions, that you ran away from:
What is "European looking" in scientific terms? What about this scientific definition, that makes it abnormal in the Nile Valley, and hence the bust?
Define 'white' as you've used it above? In scientific terms, where does this 'white', and 'black' begin and end respectively?
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
LOL. You aren't making any sense.
Are you trying to protect WHITE SUPREMACY by pretending to argue with me about what White and European looking means? Is that the issue or are you again protecting WHITE FOLKS who feel that the Egyptians LOOKED MORE WHITE and EUROPEAN than BLACK or AFRICAN. Do you disagree with that or are you so in denial that you will pretend to find fault with the words WHITE and EUROPEAN LOOKING. The words speak for themselves. And the POINT of using those words was PRECISELY to point out how RIDICULOUS people like Hawass and others sound when they say the ancient Egyptians were not black Africans. That is precisely because the FEATURES that they feel are so NON AFRICAN are OBVIOUSLY African and the colors of many of these images that are very light do not necessarily represent the ACTUAL skin complexion of the people in question. But of course, rather than letting that be clear in and of itself, you feel the need to argue about something....
Whatever. I am done with this.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
LOL. You aren't making any sense.
Thanks for admitting that you don't know what you are talking about.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
What is with this asinine back and forth?
Do you have a point? Or are you asking questions and going on with ad hominems for a reason?
What are you getting at?
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
You sure don't.
Yes, I don't know what you're talking about, and neither do you.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
I know what I am talking about.
YOUR point is that the Nefertiti bust somehow is an accurate representation of the woman in life, skin color and all. YOU seem to feel that even the color is an accurate representation of indigenous African phenotypes in the region 3500 years ago.
I don't.
It is just that simple.
I also don't agree that she looked anywhere near like a WHITE or EUROPEAN woman like HAWASS and the WHITE SUPREMACISTS would have us believe not only for Nefertiti, but King Tut and the rest of ancient Egyptian people.
But your questions have little to do with WHITES or EUROPEAN FEATURES rather than YOUR beliefs about that ONE STATUE and whether it represents an accurate depiction of the woman. But nobody is talking about you and your point of view and I certainly wasn't talking about my point of view. This thread is about Hawass, the Berlin Museum, the Nefertiti bust and the possible propaganda surrounding ONE STATUE because of the way it looks that makes it MORE FAMOUS than all the other Egyptian art and artifacts, including mummies, that are CLEARLY black African.
This has nothing to do with you so I don't see why you keep putting YOURSELF in it.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
Your incessant posts about me making so and so claim, are simply examples of your wild figment of imagination.
You choose to be out of touch with reality, because by pretending to not recognize *questions* when you see them, you convince yourself that you've evaded them. You don't convince any able-minded person about that, however.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Your incessant posts about me making so and so claim, are simply examples of your wild figment of imagination.
You choose to be out of touch with reality, because by pretending to not recognize *questions* when you see them, you convince yourself that you've evaded them. You don't convince any able-minded person about that, however.
Stop talking so much because you aren't saying anything. If you have a point then make it. I already made my point and you have said nothing that has any relevance to the thread other than trying to HIJACK this thread in an effort to INJECT your own personality into the equation. I believe you purposely don't want me to say the following:
WHITE SUPREMACISTS believe that the ancient Egyptians were WHITE PEOPLE and looked more like EUROPEANS than black Africans. They uphold the BERLIN BUST as a supreme example of the WHITE or EUROPEAN LOOKING FEATURES of the ancient Egyptians. They portray the ancient Egyptians as white and OFTEN use EUROPEAN actors to portray FAMOUS ancient Egyptian personalities, because THEY BELIEVE this is what they looked like.
OBVIOUSLY this is wrong. The ancient Egyptians were black Africans and their features were indigenous to Africa and had nothing to do with Europe. Therefore the ATTEMPTS by WHITE SUPREMACISTS to distort the image of ancient Egypt by describing them as WHITE and trying to put their features into a context OTHER THAN African, by using images that THEY CAN use to claim the WHITENESS of ancient Egypt is nothing but pure DISTORTION.
ANYONE who believes for a second that in the above paragraph means that I am saying that Nefertiti and the Berlin Bust represent WHITES or EUROPEANS is obviously NOT able to read.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Stop talking so much because you aren't saying anything.
Your fuming is hilarious. First you proclaim that I'm saying so and so, and now you proclaim that I'm not - you are severely confused.
If I'm the one talking so much, how come you are the one with long-winded posts, that evade simple requests to validate your statement?
Posted by rasol (Member # 4592) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver: Your incessant posts about me making so and so claim, are simply examples of your wild figment of imagination.
You choose to be out of touch with reality, because by pretending to not recognize *questions* when you see them, you convince yourself that you've evaded them. You don't convince any able-minded person about that, however.
Stop talking so much because you aren't saying anything. If you have a point then make it. I already made my point and you have said nothing that has any relevance to the thread other than trying to HIJACK this thread in an effort to INJECT your own personality into the equation. I believe you purposely don't want me to say the following:
WHITE SUPREMACISTS believe that the ancient Egyptians were WHITE PEOPLE and looked more like EUROPEANS than black Africans. They uphold the BERLIN BUST as a supreme example of the WHITE or EUROPEAN LOOKING FEATURES of the ancient Egyptians. They portray the ancient Egyptians as white and OFTEN use EUROPEAN actors to portray FAMOUS ancient Egyptian personalities, because THEY BELIEVE this is what they looked like.
OBVIOUSLY this is wrong. The ancient Egyptians were black Africans and their features were indigenous to Africa and had nothing to do with Europe. Therefore the ATTEMPTS by WHITE SUPREMACISTS to distort the image of ancient Egypt by describing them as WHITE and trying to put their features into a context OTHER THAN African, by using images that THEY CAN use to claim the WHITENESS of ancient Egypt is nothing but pure DISTORTION.
ANYONE who believes for a second that in the above paragraph means that I am saying that Nefertiti and the Berlin Bust represent WHITES or EUROPEANS is obviously NOT able to read.
I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense.
Mystery sometimes argues for the sake of arguing.
He is right though that you shouldn't get upset over it.
Just ignore it, when he does this. It's what I do. Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense.
Good. Perhaps then, you should be able to answer these questions for him:
What is "European looking" in scientific terms? What about this scientific definition, that makes it abnormal in the Nile Valley, and hence the bust?
Define 'white' as you've used it above? In scientific terms, where does this 'white', and 'black' begin and end respectively?
quote:rasol:
Mystery sometimes argues for the sake of arguing.
Give the specifics as it pertains to the topic at hand, cheerleader.
quote:rasol:
Just ignore it, when he does this. It's what I do.
Would be wise, if you can't answer the questions at hand.
Ps - You are just bitter old petty cheerleader, who is trying to soothe his recent embarrassment [at least, it should be] for not getting a simple thing such as "supra-Saharan Africa" right, and foolishly trying to defend it at any rate. That's what this whining of yours is all about.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:Originally posted by rasol:
I understand what you're saying, and it makes sense.
Good. Perhaps then, you should be able to answer these questions for him:
What is "European looking" in scientific terms? What about this scientific definition, that makes it abnormal in the Nile Valley, and hence the bust?
Define 'white' as you've used it above? In scientific terms, where does this 'white', and 'black' begin and end respectively?
quote:rasol:
Mystery sometimes argues for the sake of arguing.
Give the specifics as it pertains to the topic at hand, cheerleader.
quote:rasol:
Just ignore it, when he does this. It's what I do.
Would be wise, if you can't answer the questions at hand.
Ps - You are just bitter old petty cheerleader, who is trying to soothe his recent embarrassment [at least, it should be] for not getting a simple thing such as "supra-Saharan Africa" right, and foolishly trying to defend it at any rate. That's what this whining of yours is all about.
Nobody needs to answer for me. YOU need to answer for yourself why you refuse to understand that I never said the Egyptians were WHITE or EUROPEAN looking. That is clear enough. Nefertiti was not white or European and the Egyptians were not trying to depict her as such. So ANYONE who tries to suggest that the Egyptians were WHITE or European looking are TOTALLY wrong as NEITHER have anything to do with ancient Egypt. Therefore question answered and discussion ended.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Nobody needs to answer for me.
Well, if you can't validate your own statement, and some cheerleader comes along and says that he/she can, then perhaps that person has to do it for you. Rasol is clearly not in a position to answer them, because he knows that he is the one who is here to argue for the sake of arguing, to salvage whatever's left of that broken ego.
You don't know what you were saying, and so, don't expect me to know any better.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Nobody needs to answer for me. YOU need to answer for yourself why you refuse to understand that I never said the Egyptians were WHITE or EUROPEAN looking.
Neither did the question at hand:
What is "European looking" in scientific terms? What about this scientific definition, that makes it abnormal in the Nile Valley, and hence the bust?
Define 'white' as you've used it above? In scientific terms, where does this 'white', and 'black' begin and end respectively?
But in case, you wish to disown your claims, here they are in not one, but two occasions:
Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features. - Doug M
And...
Again, nothing in that statement reflects ANYTHING about how I PERSONALLY view the statue. But to be clear, YES that ONE statue does have features that look WHITE and European looking, mainly because of the color. Of course, I don't believe that is how she actually looked in real life either. - Doug M
^Caught red handed, and the thus far evaded questions are fully justified, contrary to what your cheerleader says.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Well since you have a problem with reading comprehension:
Where does this:
quote: Again, nothing in that statement reflects ANYTHING about how I PERSONALLY view the statue. But to be clear, YES that ONE statue does have features that look WHITE and European looking, mainly because of the color. Of course, I don't believe that is how she actually looked in real life either. - Doug M
Say that the Egyptians were white OR European looking?? It says that ARTWORK in Egypt sometimes portrayed women as LIGHT and sometimes WHITE which is a feature COMMON to Europe, which can be therefore called EUROPEAN looking. Scientifically this is because EUROPE is in the North and has less UV which causes LIGHTER complexions and the self described WHITENESS of Europeans.
Hence:
are images of artwork that has people that are WHITE or European looking, but that DOES NOT mean that this is what they ACTUALLY looked like. This also does NOT mean that ancient Egypt was populated by white or European looking people.
Therefore, as I have said before, any suggestion by Hawass or WHITE SUPREMACISTS and RACISTS that the ancient Egyptians were white or European looking is total nonsense.
Well since you have a problem with reading comprehension
Where does this
Since you are intellectually handicapped, you failed to see the contradictions. If you deem that I can't read, then why are you asking me to do so. Just funny.
quote:Doug M: Where does this
quote: Again, nothing in that statement reflects ANYTHING about how I PERSONALLY view the statue. But to be clear, YES that ONE statue does have features that look WHITE and European looking, mainly because of the color. Of course, I don't believe that is how she actually looked in real life either. - Doug M
Say that the Egyptians were white OR European looking??
Where does it say in the question that "Egyptians were white or European looking". And you were saying, about the other's reading comprehension? Apparently failed to see through your own deficiency - personality-check starts in your own backyard.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Ok so if the Egyptians were not white or European looking why are questions about it relevant to the discussion? THAT is the contradiction. If NEITHER of us believes that the Egyptians were white or European then WHY on earth are you asking me about it as if you SAID that I do? It isn't anywhere in anything that I said that they were white or European, yet you keep harping on this as if I said it has something to do with the features of the ancient Nile valley since it does not.
quote: What is "European looking" in scientific terms? What about this scientific definition, that makes it abnormal in the Nile Valley, and hence the bust?
You ask, what is European looking. I say, looking like Europeans, which would scientifically involve the common phenotypical characteristics of Europeans, like white skin among other features. Straightforward enough.
Then you ask about how this scientific definition has anything to do with the ancient Nile Valley.
Answer: ABSOLUTELY NOTHING.
The ancient Nile Valley was not populated by White Europeans, therefore, the scientific definition of White European looking does not apply to them. Likewise, the bust is not a representation of a white European either, which I have said many times already and therefore the "features" of the bust have nothing to do with Whites from Europe. However, there are those who DO TAKE THIS BUST to be a depiction of someone with features LIKE white and Europeans, among them, the WHITE SUPREMACISTS, Hawass and others, but that is TOTALLY WRONG.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Doug and Rasol are correct, Mystery. You make too much rubble out of what people say. Of course there is nothing "white" or "European" about the bust's features since such features are not uncommon in Africa, but what Doug meant was that many whites are totally oblivious of this and when they see the bust they associate it with "caucasians" than with anything African or black!
Besides, I'm not surprised you guys have strayed away from the original topic as usual. Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
^Toadies aside,
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
Ok so if the Egyptians were not white or European looking why are questions about it relevant to the discussion?
Duh, because they [the questions you intentionally misread] are asking you to validate your claim, which to repeat...
But in case, you wish to disown your claims, here they are in not one, but two occasions:
Promoting the Berlin bust as the "authentic" definitive image of ancient Egypt, in other words, white with European looking features. - Doug M
And...
Again, nothing in that statement reflects ANYTHING about how I PERSONALLY view the statue. But to be clear, YES that ONE statue does have features that look WHITE and European looking, mainly because of the color. Of course, I don't believe that is how she actually looked in real life either. - Doug M
^Caught red handed, and the thus far evaded questions are fully justified, contrary to what your toadies say.
quote:Doug M:
You ask, what is European looking. I say, looking like Europeans, which would scientifically involve the common phenotypical characteristics of Europeans, like white skin among other features. Straightforward enough.
Okay, you don't know what European looking entails, even though you used it. The answer is indeed straightforward.
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
It is also obvious you have nothing better to do than drone on and on about nothing.
Seems to me only you are the one who is stuck on the words European looking, as if YOU don't know what it means. The point is meaningless. There WERE NO indigenous African White European looking people in ancient Egypt other than a minority of foreigners. Therefore, once again, instead of pretending you are pointing out something about my post that isn't there, you need to learn to read and understand what is being said which is:
WHITES, Europeans and other RACISTS who want to take Egypt out of Africa point at the features of the Berlin bust as being typical of WHITES and Europeans, not blacks and Africans, which is WHAT I said.
If you don't know what white and European looking is than go find out yourself, because it wasn't intended to be a scientific observation, but an observation of the nonsense that Europeans and other WHITES make about Egyptian art and the ancient population.
Posted by Mystery Solver (Member # 9033) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
It is also obvious you have nothing better to do than drone on and on about nothing.
If it were nothing, you would have validated your statement already with ease.
quote:Doug M:
Seems to me only you are the one who is stuck on the words European looking, as if YOU don't know what it means. The point is meaningless.
If I used any word, rest assured that I'd know what it meant, and I would be *able* to fully define it to anyone who so chooses to request it, but apparently the same can't be said of you.
Let me know, when you've gotten a clue about the words you lightly toss around.
Ps -
Asking for validation of your terms is no less legitimate than requesting the same for a person who comes along and states that some ancient Egyptian personality is "Arab-looking" in so and so rendition.
Your incessant spoutings about some supposed conspiracy in protecting White Supremacists is actually funny, considering that you're the one who is repeating after them, without critical thinking.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Shangri-La Publications and Shangrila Gifts and Art are pleased to announce the discovery of a long forgotton gypsum bust of the Amarna Period Egyptian Queen Nefertiti, from a private estate in Berlin Germany, rescued from the World War II bombings of Adolf Hitler's private museum.
OVERVIEW
While for 90 years Egypt and Germany have been fighting for possession of one publically known and famous bust of this stunning Egyptian queen from the Amarna period, the sculpture of Nefertiti (Nofretete), whose name means "the beautiful one has come," from Adolf Hitler's own collection has gone unnoticed because it was held privately.
This study explores the questions of provenance and identity of this intriguing artifact. Queen Nefertiti is certainly one of the most famous women in history. She was wife of the unusual New Kingdom Pharoah, Akhnaton, and aunt of the famous boy Tutankhamum (King Tut). Is Hitler's private Nefertiti bust a recent copy or an antiquity in disguise? If the former, of which bust is it a copy and if the latter, how does this new portrait fit within the context of the other Nefertiti portraits from Tell Amarna?
ADOLPH HITLER AND NEFERTITI
It is no secret that Adolf Hitler was smitten with love for the ancient Egyptian queen Khenemet Nefertiti Hedjet. In 1933, the Egyptian government made the first of many demands over the decades for Nefertiti's return. Among his many titles Hermann Goering was premier of Prussia (which included Berlin) and, as such, Goering suggested to King Fouad I of Egypt that Nefertiti would soon be back in Cairo in exchange for political alliances between Germany and Egypt.
But Hitler had other plans. Through the ambassador to Egypt, Eberhard von Stohrer, Hitler informed the Egyptian government that he was an ardent fan of Nefertiti: "I know this famous bust," the fuehrer wrote. "I have viewed it and marveled at it many times. Nefertiti continually delights me. The bust is a unique masterpiece, an ornament, a true treasure!"
Hitler said Nefertiti had a place in his dreams of rebuilding Berlin and renaming it Germania. "Do you know what I'm going to do one day? I'm going to build a new Egyptian museum in Berlin," Hitler went on. "I dream of it. Inside I will build a chamber, crowned by a large dome. In the middle, this wonder, Nefertiti, will be enthroned. I will never relinquish the head of the Queen." Hitler and his mad dreams are long dead. But Nefertiti continues to smile serenely. As she has for 3,300 years. As if to say, this too shall pass but I endure.
Which bust of Nefertiti was Hitler refering to remains a mystery, since there were several in Berlin at the time. It is likely that he was writing about the public famous bust, but he controlled an entire collection of Nefertiti portraits all excavated by Ludwig Borchardt and financially sponsored by Dr. James Simon (1851-1932), a Jewish Berlin merchant, through the Deutsche Orient-Gesellschaft expedition to Amarna in Middle Egypt in 1907 and 1911 to 1914. Borchardt was the director of the Deutsche Institut in Kairo from 1906 to 1929, after which he returned to Germany. In 1938 he moved to Paris. James Simon has recently been honored in Germany for his contributions to Egyptology and his descendants who survived the holocaust live in England and Beverly Hills, California.
Nefertiti was the daughter of Ay (who would become pharaoh after the death of her husband) and Tiye II. She had one sister, Mutnodjmet (who would marry Pharaoh Horemheb). At Shangri-La, we have recently pieced together another facet in Adolph Hitler's obsession with the ancient Egyptian Queen Nefertiti, here made public for the first time.
THE FAMOUS BERLIN BUST OF NEFERTITI
When most people think of "Nefertiti" they recall the famous wayward beauty who recently moved again, not back to Egypt, but across town from a converted guard house in what used to be West Berlin to more royal surroundings in the heart of the reunited Berlin.
The painted limestone and plaster bust, depicting the elegantly chiseled life-sized features of a stunningly beautiful woman wearing a unique blue headdress of the goddess Tefnut, whose identity/duties she took on in the fourth year of her husbands reign, has formed the cornerstone of Berlin's Egyptian collection since German archaeologists discovered it in the ruins of Djhutmose's art studio on the Nile banks in 1912.
The sculptor Djhutmose (Thutmosis) has achieved world-wide fame for this bust of Queen Nefertiti, the wife of the "Heretic Pharaoh" Akhenaton (Ekhnaton). But what many do not know is that this 3,300-year-old bust of 18th Dynasty Nefertiti was only one of many great masterpieces of ancient Egyptian art depicting the same person and from the same artist's workshop. According to archaeological field records, she was found in Building P. 47, Room 19 of the atelier of the sculptor Thutmosis. In his studio were found 30 additional realistic busts and plaster models, showing the queen in slightly different ways.
An alluring mystery surrounded the bust since its discovery on 7 December 1912, incredibly intact and sporting vibrant colors, after lying in forgotten in the sands since the tumultuous days at the close of the reign of Pharaoh Akhenaton, one of the most enigmatic rulers of all time. Nefertiti, having rested for 3,200 years in the desert, was awoken to a new world full of passions and struggles. In 1913, the Ottoman Empire supposedly allowed its finder, part-time German-Jewish archaeologist and full-time entrepreneur, James Simon, to retain possession of the bust. But some have claimed that he and Borchardt hid the bust from official view. In either case, Simon carted it off to Europe and displayed Nefertiti prominently in his Berlin home, then he lent it to the Berlin museum and finally donating it in 1920 to the Berlin collection.
The Nefertiti collection initially was housed at the Neues Museum (New Museum) just a few meters from the Hohenzollern Palace in the heart of Berlin. Reflecting the fashion of the times, the museum itself was decorated to resemble an ancient Egyptian temple, complete with hieroglyphic inscriptions.
But as bombs rained down on Berlin during World War II, curators hastily stashed the city's art treasures at warehouses outside the city. After the war, some of those warehouses turned out to be in East Germany, and others in West Germany.
The famous Nefertiti portrait ended up in the west and took up residency in West Berlin's makeshift Egyptian museum in a converted guard house across the street from Charlottenburg Palace. But the bulk of the Berlin Egyptian collection remained in the east, and was on view at the Bode Museum in East Berlin until the Berlin Wall came down.
Since then, the city has been working to renovate and even rebuild the 19th Century museum complex. But what did Nefertiti really look like in real life? To what extend was she really the ideal image of beauty as depicted in the famous bust? How much had the artist Thutmosis deviated from her actual appearence to render his concept of artistic perfection? This newly discovered portrait bust may reveal much to answer these questions.
The portrait bust currently in the Shangri-La collection and formerly from a private collection in Berlin is a unique item with an official stamp on its base of the Nazi museum, in Berlin. The work may have been intended for the Haus der Deutschen Kunst, in Munich. There appears to be a runic "AH" followed by 537 carved on the base. Similar runic "AH" monograms were placed on personal items belonging to Adolf Hitler and the numbers 537 could be a registration number or refer to a date in 1937, the year that museum opened. Hitler's photographer Heinrich Hoffmann and museum director Karl Kolb were in charge of choosing art works for annual exhibits, but it is unclear how this piece could have related. Alternatively, this work could have been hidden away as part of Hitler's planned for National Socialist museum of art in the Austrian city of Linz; a dream that was never fully realized by the Fuehrer, although many thousands of art works were obtained for the project. The Linz museum project remains one of World War II's most enduring mysteries, but there is no indication that Hitler's Nefertiti ever left Berlin, until recently.
In 1943, Hitler created the Sonderauftrag Linz (Special Assignment Linz) to set up an art collection for the Austrian city of the same name on the Danube river. Almost exclusively financed by funds earned through sales of Hitler's book Mein Kampf and from special stamps showing his portrait, the Linz collection was mostly the Fuehrer's private project.
of Adolf Hitler, perhaps as one of many used as gifts for close friends. However, the bust is made of soft calcite, covered in gypsum plaster and several layers of pigment and constructed in a manner consistant with ancient Egyptian technologies. Furthermore, we have been unable to identify any known original sculpture of Nefertiti that has the exact same features as this portrait bust. Most strikingly, when compared with other known portrait busts, this work is more life like than others and has features that appear to have been used in different ways in the other renderings. Finally, the left ear lobe appears to have some type of ear plug, while the right ear has a hole. As a result of these observations, we are now speculating that this piece is a rendering from a life mask of Queen Nefertiti, instead of an artistic rendering. The piece in our posession is either an original first generation sculpture based on a life mask made in ancient Egypt or an expertly crafted copy of such a piece that was lost in WWII and made in Nazi Germany. In the second possibility, it would appear that the original has been lost or destroyed and we are fortunate to possess this expertly crafted copy. Finally, the plaster in the base which has the Nazi impression is chipping loose from the rest of the sculpture and is composed of a different type of material from the sculpture itself. It therefore seems that the Nazi impression was added subsequent to the sculpture's production and that the sculpture could reasonably be a previously lost art treasure from New Kingdom Egypt.
To the left and right, are images of a granite bust also from the workshop of Amarna sculptor Thutmosis. It resembles the new realistic bust in that the face is rather elongated and the features are delicate. However this granite face is far more symetrical and the features are considerably more defined. In part, these were factors of the medium used, a hard stone, but it is clear that the artist has also idealized and standardized features. The chin is not as pronounced as the newly discovered sculpture, the eyes are too similar to each other, and the neck has been elongated.
Below, another granite rendering of Nefertiti, now in the Cairo Museum, Egypt, depicts this queen with a much broader face and wider mouth, however the eyes closely resemble the newly discovered sculpture from Hitler's private collection. The nose and proportions of the upper face are also very similar.
Taken together, these two very different granite carvings both reveal features found in the naturalistic bust. They also depart in radically different directions of idealized artistic convention...
Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
Nuff said!!!
Posted by KemsonReloaded (Member # 14127) on :
In-depth intuition, built on the foundation of spirituality and intellect wins all the time!
I am not surprised with the revealing information above, but it does make me wonder the depth of lies and deceit many of these so-called specialists have dwelled in, in their short, specially-civilized, history. It also prompted me to cite a recent quote of mine:
"So yes, I am well aware that authentic Black African artifacts (and other people’s stolen cultural artifacts) are in the hand Europeans. European specialists just create fake versions of authentic works they deem most important and world shaping."
It is impossible to be obsessed with the truth for such pure entity presents no negative results or effects on its own except in the possible form of usage of such an entity outside itself.
Posted by Nefar (Member # 13890) on :
this is starting to upset me...
and what Hawass said "these mummies are not royal and of no importance"
shocking statement. he should be ashamed.
Posted by Keins (Member # 6476) on :
Probably all the Egyptian mummies that the thinks are too, "Nubian" looking!...LOL
quote:Originally posted by Nefar: this is starting to upset me...
and what Hawass said "these mummies are not royal and of no importance"
shocking statement. he should be ashamed.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ To Kemson: Of course all of this is not conclusive yet until the Berlin bust is studied in full. I doubt the German authorities will let that happen. You are correct that Europeans have indeed created forgeries of Egyptian artifacts. A perfect example would be the Tetisheri piece that fooled Egyptologists and museum curators for years.
But you are still nuts to deny the countless European artifacts from Greece as being 'frauds' when there was virtually no attempts at forgery. Perhaps because the Classical Greeks as Europeans did look European.
quote:Originally posted by Nefar: this is starting to upset me...
and what Hawass said "these mummies are not royal and of no importance"
shocking statement. he should be ashamed.
Indeed. Shouldn't all Egyptian mummies be important regardless of whether they were royal or not?! I wonder...
quote:Originally posted by Keins: Probably all the Egyptian mummies that the thinks are too, "Nubian" looking!...LOL
LOL Perhaps. Or he just views the Nefertiti bust to be more valuable than actual remains of people. Which to me is very upside down. Human remains should be more valuable than any art piece.
Posted by Alive-(What Box) (Member # 10819) on :
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