quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. ... S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations.

Here is a link on Genetic studies that show The Nubians are not related to Nilo-Saharan speakers.https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996


The Nubians cluster more with Afro-Asiatics because they are The people of Ancient Nubt(Naqada) and their original language was Egyptian. In fact they are the inventors of The Ancient Egyptian Hieroglyphic(Medu Neter) Script. The oldest recorded evidence of Egyptian Hieroglyphs date to The Nubt III phase.

The protodynastic period in ancient Egypt was characterised by an ongoing process of political unification, culminating in the formation of a single state to begin the Early Dynastic Period. Furthermore, it is during this time that the Egyptian language was first recorded in hieroglyphs. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naqada_III

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ase:
Lol did he just ban jump?

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And change his mind on whether he wanted to post on this "Masonic front" forum?
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Smirk, stop the bufoonery please
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
Please stay on topic. I'm not here for personal debates. I don't think I've done anything to warrant a ban and I only plan on posting here when I come across new information regarding Ancient Egypt which is exactly what this forum is for. I can obey these rules and not get into silly debates. Thank You.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
[QB] Please stay on topic.

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this topic is done, you already made 10 posts on the same topic
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
You can't use The Nilo-Saharan classification to deny The Nubians their Ancient Nubt heritage because as genetics studies show they do not cluster with Nilo-Saharans but rather Afro-Asiatic speakers like The Ancient Nubts. This is because they are the very people of Nubt themselves. If everyone on this forum could come to grips with the fact that Nubia was not South of Egypt but rather the name of two cities within the borders of both Ancient Egypt(KMT) and the modern country of Egypt(KMT) then everything I'm saying will become so much more obvious and apparent. You have to understand that both cities were called Nubt up until The Greeks renamed them Ombos and Kom Ombo. Neither one of them were ever called Naqada. Naqada was just the Arabic term for the cities but The Arabs themselves never renamed it Naqada. So the question is why do Archeologists use the term Naqada if the city was never actually named that?. It's simple because the name Nubt is proof that Nubia was in Egypt and it's name derived from The AE word for Gold because of its richness in Gold due to its proximity to the gold mining areas in The Eastern Desert. It never referenced Sudan because Sudan was called Ta-Nehesi. So start using the term Nubian in its proper historical context as Nubt and refer to Sudan as Ta-Nehesi.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink

-learn this, you made the same point a hundred times already. You can't make people "come to grips" of what you want them to come to grips with
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
Ok but I've come across new information that furthers proves my point that The Nubians originate from Nubt regardless if posters here may be already familiar with it or not.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Mines and quarries in Egypt

GOLD, Egyptian nbw, Coptic ⲛⲟⲩⲃ nūb

so on the map we see the various nbw (nub) locations
and we see where Naqada and the city of Nubt was located, along the river a little south of ABYDOS
at Qena

So why did the Romans come up with this term "Nubian"? Probably because they were referring to
the people in Northern Sudan where these big gold mines where and people along the river near Aswan who looked similar. It's a broad term incorporating many groups in the Northern Sudan southern Egypt region
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
No. English Nubian ultimately derives from the Noba people of Eratosthenes c 3rd century BCE and has nothing to do with gold.

AEs called the pazt Aswan up Nile region Ta Zeti, Wawat, etc., otherwise please produce primary AE documentation to the contrary.

Read up on Nobadia.
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
The Nubians are Indigenous to Southern Egypt not Northern Sudan. The Dinka/Nuer are Indigenous to Northern Sudan. Also The Romans did not invent the term Nubian because the word exists in The Ancient Egyptian language as NBW/NWB/NB/NUB. I've recently found out that not only did the term NUB reference Gold and not only was it the name of 2 cities in Egypt but it was in fact a name used to refer to the Egyptian God Set whom The Ancient Egyptians referred to as Set The Nubti meaning Golden one and a reference to Set's origin in Nubt. Here is the link proving Set was referred to as a Nubian/Nubti.https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_400_Stela
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No. English Nubian ultimately derivespeopleNoba Nobatae people

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
No. English Nubian ultimately derivespeopleNoba Nobatae people

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If Nubian came to the Nile Valley only in the fifth century, the question of its original home is of some importance, and the present distribution of Nubian languages may provide a clue. At the present day Nubian is spoken - or was until the disruption caused by resettlement as a result of the building of the new Aswan dam and the resultant flooding of much of Nubia - along the Nile from a little north of Aswan to Debba, and there is good evidence from place names for its further extension upriver, perhaps to the neighbourhood of Khartoum, in medieval times. Related languages are spoken in the Nuba hills to the south-west, where a group of dialects usually known as 'Hill Nubian' are spoken by a people very different physically and culturally from the speakers of'River Nubian'. A little north of this group, at Jebel Haraza, evidence for a closely related language has recently come to light, and, in northern Darfur, Meidob and Birged are also related. This distribution suggests that in the past there may have been a wide area of the northern Sudan over which Nubian was spoken, and that it was one of the main language groups of the ancient Sudan. The modern distribution of related languages suggests that the original home of the ancestral language lay to the west, and that it spread from there to the Nile Valley. It is therefore tempting to identify the people buried in the mound graves at Meroe and elsewhere in the area with the Noba of Ezana and with the bringers of Nubian language to the Nile. The name Noba, and the subsequent use of this or a very similar name by medieval Arab writers for the inhabitants of the northern Sudan, from which the modern use of the word Nubian is derived, is unlikely to be coincidence
-THE CAMBRIDGE HISTORY OF AFRICA General Editors: J. D. FAGE and ROLAND OLIVER Volume 2 from c. 500 BC to AD 1050

https://www.sahistory.org.za/sites/default/files/file%20uploads%20/j._d._fage_the_cambridge_history_of_africa_volubook4you.pdf
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
Please remit primary AE documentation of a Nubia(n) region.

Speculation can't trump actual documentation.

My interest is not in thoughtless rapid fire post exchange.

Unless primary AE written documents explicitly name a region or people named Nubia(ns) then quite obviously there were none.

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:
No. English Nubian ultimately derives from the Noba people of Eratosthenes c 3rd century BCE and has nothing to do with gold.

AEs called the pazt Aswan up Nile region Ta Zeti, Wawat, etc., otherwise please produce primary AE documentation to the contrary.

Read up on Nobadia.

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That is false. The term Nubian was used by The Ancient Egyptians. The Evidence is in The Hieroglyphs(Medu Neter) itself. The God Set was referred to as a Nubti referencing his origin in Nubt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
m The Ancient Egyptians referred to as Set The Nubti meaning Golden one and a reference to Set's origin in Nubt. Here is the link proving Set was referred to as a Nubian/Nubti.
Year 400 Stela
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Year_400_Stela [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:


Unless primary AE written documents explicitly name a region or people named Nubia(ns) then quite obviously there were none.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
No. English Nubian ultimately derivespeopleNoba Nobatae people

---

If Nubian came to the Nile Valley only in the fifth century, the question of its original home is of some importance, and the present distribution of Nubian languages may provide a clue. At the present day Nubian is spoken - or was until the disruption caused by resettlement as a result of the building of the new Aswan dam and the resultant flooding of much of Nubia - along the Nile from a little north of Aswan to Debba, and there is good evidence from place names for its further extension upriver, perhaps to the neighbourhood of Khartoum, in medieval times. Related languages are spoken in the Nuba hills to the south-west, where a group of dialects usually known as 'Hill Nubian' are spoken by a people very different physically and culturally from the speakers of'River Nubian'. A little north of this group, at Jebel Haraza, evidence for a closely related language has recently come to light, and, in northern Darfur, Meidob and Birged are also related. This distribution suggests that in the past there may have been a wide area of the northern Sudan over which Nubian was spoken, and that it was one of the main language groups of the ancient Sudan. The modern distribution of related languages suggests that the original home of the ancestral language lay to the west, and that it spread from there to the Nile Valley. It is therefore tempting to identify the people buried in the mound graves at Meroe and elsewhere in the area with the Noba of Ezana and with the bringers of Nubian language to the Nile. The name Noba, and the subsequent use of this or a very similar name by medieval Arab writers for the inhabitants of the northern Sudan, from which the modern use of the word Nubian is derived, is unlikely to be coincidence
-THE CAMBRIDGE HISTORY OF AFRICA General Editors: J. D. FAGE and ROLAND OLIVER Volume 2 from c. 500 BC to AD 1050

https://www.sahistory.org.za/sites/default/files/file%20uploads%20/j._d._fage_the_cambridge_history_of_africa_volubook4you.pdf

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The Nubians of today are not a Nomadic people so that obliterates the theory that they originated from Noba Nomads during The Roman Era. I once considered the possibility of this until I learned that the AE word for gold was NUB/NBW and that there were 2 Nubts in AE. You have to understand that many Greco-Roman accounts of history were Mythological and lack archeological evidence so you cannot use Roman writings as a primary source. Also you would have to point to a present day population of Noba Nomads in The Western Desert to prove this migration and no such people exist today. Now that we have genetic studies that prove The Nubians don't cluster with Nilo-Saharans. This puts to sleep the claim that The Nubians migrated from The Western Desert. Another thing is the fact that the majority of Nubians can't even speak Noobin. It's a nearly extinct language which is no surprise because they don't cluster with that language family. Noobin is no more their language than Arabic is. They adopted this Nilo-Saharan language. They cluster with Afro-Asiatic speakers which is exactly what The Ancient Egyptians were.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
^^^ that was what Tukular said

this is what I said



^^^ there's all the Gold spots, the Nubs
the big ones in Northern Sudan

but there is no evidence in Egyptian text that they called groups of people by this gold reference or groups of themselves
yet they do have a large number of named ethnic groups in these texts

"Nubians" as a reference to a people is not Egyptian.
As a reference to a people that is a Greco-Roman invention

and until you find an example in an Egyptian text using any form of Nub to refer to a people you have nothing.
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Tukuler:


Unless primary AE written documents explicitly name a region or people named Nubia(ns) then quite obviously there were none.

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^ Smirk, this is the end of the discussion, you either have an Egyptian text referring to > a people by the name of Nubians or you don't.

and you don't

In books on Egypt they always point this out that the Egyptians did not use a derivation of the word Nub such as "Nubian" to indicate themselves as a people or another people.
A theoretical reference to Set is not describing a people
There are many Egyptian texts. They don't refer to themselves as a people as "Nubian" or other people as "Nubian" - end of discussion


so we don't need another 10 threads to determine that

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:

Suffix. -ian. (as an adjective) From, related to, or like. (as a noun) One from, belonging to, relating to, or like. (as a noun) Having a certain profession.

The ''ian'' in the name Nubian is a suffix that meaans being from or belonging to Nub. This is no different than how the ''ian'' in The name Italian means belonging to or being from Italy. The Ancient Egyptian referral to The God Set as a ''Nubti'' with the suffix at the end meant that Set was from and belonged to Nubt. This is not up for debate. [/QB]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:

Suffix. -ian. (as an adjective) From, related to, or like. (as a noun) One from, belonging to, relating to, or like. (as a noun) Having a certain profession.

The ''ian'' in the name Nubian is a suffix that meaans being from or belonging to Nub. This is no different than how the ''ian'' in The name Italian means belonging to or being from Italy. The Ancient Egyptian referral to The God Set as a ''Nubti'' with the suffix at the end meant that Set was from and belonged to Nubt. This is not up for debate.

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"ian" is not Egyptian language, that is irrelevant.

The God Set is not a people he's a God

The Egyptians did not call the people living in the river valley around Aswan "Nub" or "Nubti" [/QB]

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

Suffix. -ian. (as an adjective) From, related to, or like. (as a noun) One from, belonging to, relating to, or like. (as a noun) Having a certain profession.

The ''ian'' in the name Nubian is a suffix that meaans being from or belonging to Nub. This is no different than how the ''ian'' in The name Italian means belonging to or being from Italy. The Ancient Egyptian referral to The God Set as a ''Nubti'' with the suffix at the end meant that Set was from and belonged to Nubt. This is not up for debate.

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"ian" is not Egyptian language, that is irrelevant.

The God Set is not a people he's a God

The Egyptians did not call the people living in the river valley around Aswan "Nub" or "Nubti"

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It doesn't matter if the suffix is Latin because the word Nub is Egyptian. The Egyptians also used a suffix which is why they referred to Set as a Nubti. Regardless of if it was referring to a God and not a person. They still referred to Set as a Nubti. [/QB]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
It doesn't matter if the suffix is Latin because the word Nub is Egyptian. The Egyptians also used a suffix which is why they referred to Set as a Nubti. Regardless of if it was referring to a God and not a person. They still referred to Set as a Nubti.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Nubti means he of Nubt(Ombos). This is why Set was called Set-Nubti. It designates Set belonging to Nubt. I never said The AE referred to themselves as Nubti. I said they referred to Set as Nubti. This is evidence that they did use the term to refer to something other than the city itself.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Once again I never said they used the word for people but rather that they used the term with a suffix to refer to The God Set which designated him belonging to Nubt. So while they didn't use the term for people they still used the term with a suffix to refer to one of their Gods. The word existed in The Ancient Egyptian language and you cannot argue against this because the evidence is in The Hieroglyphs.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:

The Nubians cluster more with Afro-Asiatics because they are The people of Ancient Nubt(Naqada) and their original language was Egyptian.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:

Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. ... S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations.

Here is a link on Genetic studies that show The Nubians are not related to Nilo-Saharan speakers.https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996

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Yeah we've been knowing this fact for a long time now and nobody in this forum said otherwise so what is your point??

That still doesn't change the fact that Nubians are not the same as ethnic Egyptians.
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

Nubians are the only Nilo-Saharan speaking group that does not cluster with groups of the same linguistic affiliation, but with Sudanese Afro-Asiatic speaking groups (Arabs and Beja) and Afro-Asiatic Ethiopians (Supplementary Fig. ... S7) and do not cluster with our Nilo-Saharan speaking populations.

Here is a link on Genetic studies that show The Nubians are not related to Nilo-Saharan speakers.https://www.nature.com/articles/srep09996

---

Yeah we've been knowing this fact for a long time now and nobody in this forum said otherwise so what is your point??

That still doesn't change the fact that Nubians are not the same as ethnic Egyptians.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Once again I never said they used the word for people but rather that they used the term with a suffix to refer to The God Set which designated him belonging to Nubt. So while they didn't use the term for people they still used the term with a suffix to refer to one of their Gods. The word existed in The Ancient Egyptian language and you cannot argue against this because the evidence is in The Hieroglyphs.

---

Again, right here you used the word Nubian to refer to a people >

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

The Nubians cluster more with Afro-Asiatics because they are The people of Ancient Nubt(Naqada) and their original language was Egyptian.

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You are saying a group of people who are now called "Nubians" are from Nubt(Naqada)

and you have no reference by the Egyptians or even Romans that "Nubian" refers to people from the city of Nubt

Again Set is a deity not a group of people.
Set does not mean "Nubian"

Set is of Nubti, a town
-not "a Nubti"

And where are these modern Nubians even saying they are from Nubt/Ombos (the Nubt in Qena)

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:

I said their name Nubian with a suffix indicates them belonging to Nubt.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
I used The Ancient Egyptian referral to Set as a Nubti to show that They did use the term with a suffix exactly like the term is being used today.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:


Even if they were only using the term to refer to a God. They still used it.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:

Since you asked here is a video of Nubian elders acknowledging that they are Indigenous to Egypt. they claim no Sudanese or Western origin. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZvJ0F299kFQ

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Again modern Nubians lived along the river valley that goes through both countries Egypt and Sudan, 1st to 6th cataract



The man in the video says "the Nubians and Egyptians are not white they are black Africans"

He did not say the the Nubians are the original Egyptians and he did not say the Nubians came from Nubt
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
Once again the suffix at the end of the term Nubian designates belonging to Nub. You keep acting like the suffix at the end makes it a different term. So according to you're logic the terms Italy and Italian are two different terms. Do you see how that makes no sense?. You are using the suffix to separate Nubian from Nub which is the equivalent to separating Italian from Italy. If Nubians don't belong to Nub then Italians don't belong to Italy. You are making a nonsensical argument.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Once again the suffix at the end of the term Nubian designates belonging to Nub. You keep acting like the suffix at the end makes it a different term. So according to you're logic the terms Italy and Italian are two different terms. Do you see how that makes no sense?. You are using the suffix to separate Nubian from Nub which is the equivalent to separating Italian from Italy. If Nubians don't belong to Nub then Italians don't belong to Italy. You are making a nonsensical argument.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:

But weren't you using their False Nilo-Saharan classification as the basis to you're argument that they weren't ethnic Egyptians?.

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quote:

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You once argued that they clustered with Nilo-Saharan speakers and used The Toubou as an example. So now that we both know that They cluster with Afro-Asiatic speakers then The Nilo-Saharan argument goes out the window. This also completely obliterates the claim that they originate from Noba Nomads in The Western Desert and the nail in the coffin is the fact that The Nubians of today are not a Nomadic people. That story was a Roman Mythological account of history. The Noba Nomads never existed this is why you will not find such people in The Western Desert today. All evidence shows The Nubians to be Indigenous Ethnic Egyptians.

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Again you completely FAIL to comprehend the difference between ethnicity, that is linguistic and cultural affiliation, and that of physical population which is genetic affiliation! The two are NOT the same and often times contradict. My argument still stands that modern Nubians are ethnically--both linguistically and culturally--affiliated with the Toubou... who ALSO genetically cluster with Afro-asiatic speakers of northeast Africa, ignoramus!!
Also, how does the fact that modern Nubians are sedentary today contradict the fact that their Noba ancestors were nomads??! You do realize that throughout history cultures change over time and people who were once nomadic become sedentary and vice-versa! Also, you keep saying it is a Roman myth when not only the Romans but Greeks and even native Egyptian commentators have spoke of groups immigrating into the Nile Valley during the Late Periods of Egyptian history not only the Noba but also the Blemmyes. Are you saying all of this was a lie and made up?! That there were no Noba or even Blemmyes of the Eastern Desert?

Face it: you don't know what you're talking about either in regards, to culture, genetics, or history! You're desperate to promote this false premise of Nubians being ethnic Egyptians when the very statement is a contradiction as the two are completely different ethnic groups, as I've already explained to you here!
 

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Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
I think that the Upper "Nubians" (Kushites) were predominantly Nilotic Nilo-Saharans while the Lower "Nubians" in Southern Egypt were Afro-Asiatic.


AE depictions of the Kushites show Dinka type people. AE depictions of Lower "Nubians" seem almost indistinguisable from the AE phenotype.

I was surprised to find that genetic evidence says that Nubians were genetically (and pressumably phenotypically) Nilotic until very recently.

quote:

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Genetic evidence points to an early admixture event in the Nubians, concurrent with historical contact between North Sudanese and Arab groups. We estimate the admixture in current-day Sudanese Arab populations to about 700 years ago, coinciding with the fall of Dongola in 1315/1316 AD, a wave of admixture that reached the Darfurian/Kordofanian populations some 400–200 years ago."

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quote:

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an ‘unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes (S7B Fig

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quote:

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The strongest signal of admixture into Nubian populations came from Eurasian populations (S10 Fig, S2 Table) and was likely quite extensive: 39.41%-47.73% (f4-ratio, Z-scores between 22.8 and 26.7 Fig 3B, S9 Fig).

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quote:

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Hence, the Nubians can be seen as a group with substantial genetic material relating to Nilotes that later have received much gene-flow from Eurasians (likely Middle Eastern) and from East Africans (Fig 2).

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Source:

http://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976

I see no basis for linking the Toubou with us. I'm quite certain that the Kushites, Nubae, Noubades and the Nobatians were Nilotic like the Dinka, and if they were mixed with Afro-Asiatics, they would have been like the Maasai.

The modern Nubian population in Sudan is a mix between Dinka type Nilotes and Eurasians. Some Dinka sections left the North in the 13th Century while others left in the 15th Century, so people should not assume that they've always been in the South. The Dinka displaced the Funj, Jurbel and Fertit groups when they left the Gezira for the South.

To Jari:

Unlike other blacks, Nilotes have very weak genes, so when they mix with Eurasians the offsprings lean phenotypically toward Eurasian. I know a Dinka man whose son is half Czech and the child has blonde hair and very light skin.

Another half-Dinka child looked like a Portugese person. Nilotic genes are completely different to Niger-Congo genes.

The "East African" component generated in home-testing kits tests is misleading; a significant portion of it is Eurasian -> 40 to 50% for some Horn African groups. The Somalis have Ancestral East African (pure Nilotes), North African and Eurasian DNA.

Horn Africans are either a mix between Omotics and Arabian Semites or are a mix between Dinka like Ancestral East Africans (AEA), North Africans and Eurasians -- which is the case with the Somalis.

This East African component is considered SSA (in home test kits) even though it has substantial Eurasian components, so it's misleading when a North Sudanese shows up with 87% SSA. A person of Nilotic (Dinka) and Eurasian ancestry will look very Eurasan because Nilotes have laughably weak genes.

You would think that the blackest people in Africa would not be so easily eclipsed, but the opposite is true.
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ase:
Lol did he just ban jump?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

I don't think I've done anything to warrant a ban

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Once again the suffix at the end of the term Nubian designates belonging to Nub. You keep acting like the suffix at the end makes it a different term. So according to you're logic the terms Italy and Italian are two different terms. Do you see how that makes no sense?. You are using the suffix to separate Nubian from Nub which is the equivalent to separating Italian from Italy. If Nubians don't belong to Nub then Italians don't belong to Italy. You are making a nonsensical argument.

---

Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin

Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin

Again, the suffix "ian" is Latin

Again Nub means gold

Again Nubti is a town where Set was worshiped

Again the "I" at the end is a location designation not a reference to people


Again, Egyptians texts do not refer to a people with a derivation of the word Nub


This means that the fact that the word "Nubian" only appears in the Greco-Roman period


That means they could have intended it to refer to all the people from the 1st cataract in Egypt and down into Sudan as well.

Again the big Nub mines are in Sudan

meaning "people of the gold mining regions"

Again "ian" is Latin, not Egyptian and the people around Aswan don't call themselves Nubti

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

But weren't you using their False Nilo-Saharan classification as the basis to you're argument that they weren't ethnic Egyptians?.

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First of all there is nothing "false" about it! Nilo-Saharan is a linguistic classification. The Nubians speak Nilo-Saharan languages and language is a large part of ethnicity. You fail to understand that there is a difference between ethnicity and genetics.

quote:

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You once argued that they clustered with Nilo-Saharan speakers and used The Toubou as an example. So now that we both know that They cluster with Afro-Asiatic speakers then The Nilo-Saharan argument goes out the window. This also completely obliterates the claim that they originate from Noba Nomads in The Western Desert and the nail in the coffin is the fact that The Nubians of today are not a Nomadic people. That story was a Roman Mythological account of history. The Noba Nomads never existed this is why you will not find such people in The Western Desert today. All evidence shows The Nubians to be Indigenous Ethnic Egyptians.

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Again you completely FAIL to comprehend the difference between ethnicity, that is linguistic and cultural affiliation, and that of physical population which is genetic affiliation! The two are NOT the same and often times contradict. My argument still stands that modern Nubians are ethnically--both linguistically and culturally--affiliated with the Toubou... who ALSO genetically cluster with Afro-asiatic speakers of northeast Africa, ignoramus!!
Also, how does the fact that modern Nubians are sedentary today contradict the fact that their Noba ancestors were nomads??! You do realize that throughout history cultures change over time and people who were once nomadic become sedentary and vice-versa! Also, you keep saying it is a Roman myth when not only the Romans but Greeks and even native Egyptian commentators have spoke of groups immigrating into the Nile Valley during the Late Periods of Egyptian history not only the Noba but also the Blemmyes. Are you saying all of this was a lie and made up?! That there were no Noba or even Blemmyes of the Eastern Desert?

Face it: you don't know what you're talking about either in regards, to culture, genetics, or history! You're desperate to promote this false premise of Nubians being ethnic Egyptians when the very statement is a contradiction as the two are completely different ethnic groups, as I've already explained to you here!

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
@Sudinaya Yes The Dinka people are The true Kushites of antiquity. This is why The Dinka word for people is Kas/Koc which is the same exact word The Ancient Egyptians used for The Kushites. There's also a place called Koch county in South Sudan. This is proof that The Nubians were not apart of Kush and is also why The Nubians were granted a right to return by The Egyptian Government in 2014. Though it has not carried through yet. It is proof that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and not Sudan. A right to return can only be legally granted to an Indigenous population. So if The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt then that means they migrated to Northern Sudan not the other way around like most people think. Technically speaking The Nubians living in Northern Sudan should also be included in the right to return since The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
@Sudinaya Yes The Dinka people are The true Kushites of antiquity. This is why The Dinka word for people is Kas/Koc which is the same exact word The Ancient Egyptians used for The Kushites. There's also a place called Koch county in South Sudan. This is proof that The Nubians were not apart of Kush and is also why The Nubians were granted a right to return by The Egyptian Government in 2014. Though it has not carried through yet. It is proof that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt and not Sudan. A right to return can only be legally granted to an Indigenous population. So if The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt then that means they migrated to Northern Sudan not the other way around like most people think. Technically speaking The Nubians living in Northern Sudan should also be included in the right to return since The Nubian homeland is in Southern Egypt.

---

I just showed you that modern Nubians (Nobatians) are a mix between Nilotes and Eurasians and that this Eurasian introgression took place in the last 700 years, and you're still insisting that the Nubians are not Sudanese?

What happened to the Khartoum Mesolithic? How do you ignore this? Ancient Egyptian and Nubian ancestry can be traced to the Khartoum Mesolithic.

The Noubades, Nubae and the Nobatians were not Kushites, but since they were neighbours, they were all probably related populations.

I'm more than well aware of the Dinka and that the Kushites may have been Nilotic, but your contention that the Nubians are not indigenous to Sudan is absurd.

By the way Koch County is in the Dar (land) of the Nuer. The Dinka word for people (plural) is indeed Koch and Raan for person, but there is no Kas in the Dinka language.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
You have shown no evidence that modern day Nubians are associated with the the city of Nubt or Nubti

The Egyptians may have described Set as Nubti
but they did not describe a people as Nubti or Nub

while they did name many other groups

so you have nothing

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
You keep noting The Nubians mixture with Eurasians while ignoring Their Cluster with Beja and Ethiopians who are much more ancient than Eurasians. Yes I am linking The Dinka/Nuer with The Ancient Kushites based on their word for people which is Koch/Koc/Kas. The word designates people. I'm also basing it on how Taharqa himself was depicted with that same Gaar scarification mark that is very popular amongst The Nuer today. The AE also depicted The Kushites with those same cow urine hair dyes like The Dinka/Nuer today. The Ancient Kushites were depicted as Cattle-herders exactly like The Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians are not Cattle-Herders and carry none of these cultural elements. Yes I do acknowledge that The Ancestors of The AE(Badarians) were a mixture of Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan though The Afro-Asiatic element was more dominant. You keep thinking Afro-Asiatic is synonymous with Eurasian when it is not. The Afro-Asiatic ancestors of The AE were Beja and Cushitic speakers from The Ethiopian highlands not Eurasians. The Nilotic ancestors of The AE were Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians today are descendants of These mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan Egyptians and like you said their mixture with Eurasians did not occur until 700 years ago.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
The original Afro-Asiatics were like The Cushitic speakers of today and The Nubians cluster with these people more so than Nilo-Saharans. The AE were also Afro-Asiatic with some Nilo-Saharan mixture. Who The Nubians are is evident in their name. A Nubian is simply one belonging to or being from Nub. While The AE only used this term to refer to The God Set and not a Human. It is still proof that they recognized that someone from that city would be called a Nubti. Note the “ian” and “i” are both suffixes that designated belonging to so The word NubIAN and NubtI both have the same meaning.

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So the ancient Egyptians were 40% Eurasian, right? Modern "Cushitic" populations in the Horn have that genetic profile.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
.


HEIROGLYPH FOR NUB




 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
^^^^^^^^^^^^ The Kushites in that scene are presenting Nub(Gold). Nowhere in That Glyph are They referring to those presenters as Nubians.
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
You just got done arguing with me about how The AE never used the word Nub for a people but when I showed you evidence that they did use the term for The God Set you didn’t think it meant anything . Now you’re trying to prove they did use the term for foreigners? SMH you’re shooting yourself in the foot. Nowhere in that Hieroglyph does it call those people Nub. They are presenting Nub(Gold) to The Pharaoh.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Again the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

end of discussion
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
Again The Ancient Egyptian word for gold was Nub/Nb/Nbw. There were two cities with this same exact name. There exists today an Indigenous people in Egypt called Nubians. END OF DISCUSSION.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Again the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

adding "ian" to Nub is a latin concept not Egyptian

end of discussion
 

---

Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
The original Afro-Asiatics were like The Cushitic speakers of today and The Nubians cluster with these people more so than Nilo-Saharans. The AE were also Afro-Asiatic with some Nilo-Saharan mixture. Who The Nubians are is evident in their name. A Nubian is simply one belonging to or being from Nub. While The AE only used this term to refer to The God Set and not a Human. It is still proof that they recognized that someone from that city would be called a Nubti. Note the “ian” and “i” are both suffixes that designated belonging to so The word NubIAN and NubtI both have the same meaning.

---

So the ancient Egyptians were 40% Eurasian, right? Modern "Cushitic" populations in the Horn have that genetic profile.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Again the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

adding "ian" to Nub is a latin concept not Egyptian

end of discussion

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
Again the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

adding "ian" to Nub is a latin concept not Egyptian

end of discussion

---

The Egyptians added an “I” to Nubt genius. It’s the same concept. So according to you’re logic naming a people after a town or city was invented by Latins?. Stop giving The Greco-Romans so much credit. Much of their accounts of history no longer hold any water in academic circles.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
Ok lets say hypothetically speaking that's true. It still doesn't deny the fact that the term Nubian does derive from Nub. It still doesn't deny the fact that The word exists in The AE language. It still doesn't deny the fact that there were two gold rich city in AE called Nubt. It still doesn't deny that The Nubians are Indigenous to Egypt. So you can argue that they didn't use the term to refer to people but you cant argue against the existence of the term in AE because the evidence is in the language and history of Egypt.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

quote:

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Originally posted by Smnine-two:
You keep noting The Nubians mixture with Eurasians while ignoring Their Cluster with Beja and Ethiopians who are much more ancient than Eurasians. Yes I am linking The Dinka/Nuer with The Ancient Kushites based on their word for people which is Koch/Koc/Kas. The word designates people. I'm also basing it on how Taharqa himself was depicted with that same Gaar scarification mark that is very popular amongst The Nuer today. The AE also depicted The Kushites with those same cow urine hair dyes like The Dinka/Nuer today. The Ancient Kushites were depicted as Cattle-herders exactly like The Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians are not Cattle-Herders and carry none of these cultural elements. Yes I do acknowledge that The Ancestors of The AE(Badarians) were a mixture of Afro-Asiatic and Nilo-Saharan though The Afro-Asiatic element was more dominant. You keep thinking Afro-Asiatic is synonymous with Eurasian when it is not. The Afro-Asiatic ancestors of The AE were Beja and Cushitic speakers from The Ethiopian highlands not Eurasians. The Nilotic ancestors of The AE were Dinka/Nuer. The Nubians today are descendants of These mixed Afro-Asiatic/Nilo-Saharan Egyptians and like you said their mixture with Eurasians did not occur until 700 years ago.

---

I think I'll leave you to your position, mate. Also,where have I linked Afro-Asiatic with Eurasians? I've been crystal clear that the original Afro-Asiatics were indigenous Africans in Sudan-Egypt; their Y-DNA was Em-78 and most of their mtdna was mostly L3, L3K and M1. Some Eurasian mtdna must have been in the mix.

I already corrected you on there being no Kas in the Dinka language. The Kushites were likely Nilotic and so were the Noubades - the African ancestors of modern Nubians -- as the genetic evidence has shown. Lower "Nubians" in Southern Egypt were closely related to the Upper Egyptians but the Nubians in Southern Egypt today are not identical to the ones of old.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
[QB] I like how you circled around what I said. I actually agreed with you're premise that The Egyptians didn't use it as an ethnic term. I said that they did use the term with a suffix to refer to a God belonging to this particular city.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
[QB] I like how you circled around what I said. I actually agreed with you're premise that The Egyptians didn't use it as an ethnic term. I said that they did use the term with a suffix to refer to a God belonging to this particular city.

---

They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter
because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

so you have no argument

It's very simple

the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter
because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

so you have no evidence

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:
[QB] I like how you circled around what I said. I actually agreed with you're premise that The Egyptians didn't use it as an ethnic term. I said that they did use the term with a suffix to refer to a God belonging to this particular city.

---

They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter
because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

so you have no argument

It's very simple

the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

They used the term to refer to a deity, It doesn't matter
because the Egyptians did not refer to a group of people as Nub or Nubti or Nubian

so you have no evidence

---

It doesn't matter to who? You?????. They referred to something as a Nubti period. be it a God an animal a plant a person ETC. IT DOES MATTER! because The Egyptians used the term with a suffix. I do have evidence because I'm showing how the term was used in The Egyptian language. You're just manipulating the term into having no meaning or significance and writing off its usage to be vague. You're not actually proving anything I'm saying is wrong. As I said you're trying to complexify something very simple.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

Most Egyptologists agree that the term Nubian is Egyptian in origin.

---

Egyptologists say Nub and Nubt and Nubti are Egyptian words and none of them pertaining to a group of people

No Egyptologist says Nubian is an Egyptian word,

stop the BS
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
^ Amen!
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
The countries and rulers' names are right here very clear.
Tell us what the primary document says they are, or kweikwai.
This isn't up for debate it's a matter of facts easily supported.
And no, they aren't Kushi, once you translate i'll post the map.


plate enlarged and in full @ http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061170.jpg
 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
i'll show you who they are.






 

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Posted by Smnine-two (Member # 23198) on :
 
Here we can clearly identify Taharqa as a Nuer/Naath due to his Nuer Gaar Tribal Scarification marks on his forehed. The 25th Dynasty was Nuer not Nubian. Nubians have nothing to do with Ancient Kush/Nehesi. Kush/Nehesi is Dinka/Nuer history.


 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
This poster has no interest in learning and sharing replicable knowledge.
This poster's interest is in ramming personal propaganda down readers throats.

Else

Quit dancing. Translate the primary document as asked.
This poster's Pictionary identification is wrong wrong wrong
as the names and kingdoms written in the primary AE document by Huy prove beyond shadow of doubt.

quote:

---

The countries and rulers' names are right here very clear.
Tell us what the primary document says they are, or kweikwai.
This isn't up for debate it's a matter of facts easily supported.
And no, they aren't Kushi, once you translate i'll post the map.


plate enlarged and in full @ http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061170.jpg

---

.

C'mon Mr Self-claimed archaeologist, git to translating.

EDIT:
<< Ah well too late now I see this substanceless breying donkey is banned once again as is right and proper BIG UPS KUDOS 2 MGMNT >>
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

The Nubians do not genetically cluster with Nilo-Saharans period...

---

quote:

---

..The Toubou do cluster with other Nilo-Saharans...

---

quote:

---

...Even The Nubian poster here stated that he and his people do not cluster with The Toubou...

---

Relying on the claims of an alleged Nubian is a logical fallacy known as 'Appeal to Biased Authority'. Just because he's Nubian does not mean what he's saying is true or accurate. I prefer to rely on actual genetic studies like this:

Extensive Admixture and Selective Pressure Across the Sahel Belt (2015) by Triska & Soares et ales.

*Note Daza is another name for Toubou*

quote:

---

If you are going to claim they originate from Noba Nomads then show me a present day living breathing population of Noba Nomads in The Western Desert?. You can't because no such group of people exists.

---

quote:

---

Yes The Nubians being sedentary people negates them being a Nomadic people. You can't be sedentary and Nomadic at the same time...

---

Again how do modern Nubians being sedentary negate the fact that their Noba ancestors were not?!! What part of the Noba nomads immigrating to the Nile Valley and settling there and intermarrying with locals to produce modern Nubians do you not understand??

quote:

---

Also if The Nubians were ever Nomadic then you would find them in multiple countries but you don't. The only places on earth where you will find Nubians is Southern Egypt and Northern Sudan. Their migration into Northern Sudan does not make them Nomads because both Nubts were in proximity to The Eastern Desert.

---

quote:

---

The Blemmyes you speak of are The Beja today and they originated in The Eastern Desert like The Medjay because they are the same people and a Nomadic people like The Ancient Medjay. Their land was called Medja. Their very name Beja is a derivative of Medjay. Bej-Medj you can clearly hear the name Beja in the name Medjay.

---

quote:

---

The Greeks and Romans cannot be used as a primary source because many of their texts contradict each other and are laden with Superstitions and Mythologies.

---

quote:

---

You yourself said Diodorus claim of Egypt being a colony lead by Osiris was Mythological so how can you continue to use them as a primary source?.

---

quote:

---

The Greeks and Romans were the inventors of Fake News. This is why Herodotus is referred to by many modern scholars as ''The father of Lies''.

---

quote:

---

At the end of the day the fact remains that the term NUB/NB/NBW existed in The Egyptian language as a word for Gold and there were two cities in Egypt with this name and this term predates any Greco-Roman usage of it by at least 3,500 years.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Why ban him when I and others can simply correct him i.e. give him a thorough beating with the facts??

---

wasn't me but he was banned earlier as Smirk92 for having about 10 threads on the nearly the same topic
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ I didn't say it was you but just asked the general question. The funny thing is that we've had worse trolls in this forum before. As long as the guy sticks to a thread and not jump to another I don't see what the problem is.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
He did make a thread-
"I'm leaving" post and said:

"I have nothing more to contribute. I’ve came to the conclusion that this forum is just a Masonic front for both Eurocentrics and Afrocentrics to argue. Bye"
______________________

Also this is yet another topic when he could have continued on pre-existing posts, many of his on virtually the same topic.
He won't listen it's pointless
 

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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
We got something now we didn't have then.
Ppl w/real Owner/Admin power.
If we had that back then we'd a had no trolls.

Do you like ppl playin around with your ppl's histories and cultures to the point non involved observers don't know what's the real authentic Pinoyana?


But sho u right. Hahaha remember that monty python blk knight meme?
where the B K is whittled down to a head and torso
yet still thinks and claims to be the winner.

And yeah when a fool and an intelligenti argue
which one is really the fool to the onlooker?

But bozo clown punchin bags can be fun

Whoops, wrong bozos (link).
See? I yain't a serious as ya'll think!
While I'm on a roll https://repsdesign.com/shop/celebrity-toys/2017-donald-trump-presidential-bop-bag-and-bonus-putin-whoopie-cushion/
 

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Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
Regardless of whether the troll or any troll is present or not, this thread is an excellent topic for educating folks about the difference between physical populations and language/culture.

Nilo-Saharan is a language phylum and the very name itself describes its native extant range-- the Nile Valley and the Sahara desert. Surely in such a vast area is there going to be genetic heterogeneity among its speakers which was discussed multiple times before.

We know that during the Holocene North Africa experienced a wet period in which there was no Sahara and the region that we know as desert today was much more densely populated than now.

Recall the Roger Blench et al. 2011 study Ancient Watercourses and Biogeography of the Sahara Explain the Peopling of the Desert

The Peopling of the Sahara During the Holocene

We hypothesize that the differences in animal resources between the northern and southern Sahara during the early Holocene influenced the way it was peopled by humans. The north–south contrast in Saharan species ranges are remarkably similar to some key lithic, bone tool, and linguistic spatial distributions, suggesting that the peopling of the region during the early Holocene humid phase was driven by cultural adaptations that allowed exploitation of specific fauna.

The early Holocene archaeology of the Sahara is characterized by a regional distribution of specific archaeological cultures, such as those defined by barbed bone points, fishhooks, Ounanian arrow-points, and, more controversially, pottery (32, 35–38). The Sahara today is largely populated by speakers of Afroasiatic languages, Berber and Arabic, with some Nilo-Saharan languages (Teda-Daza and Zaghawa) in the region of Northern Chad, and Songhay cluster languages scattered across Mali and Niger (Fig. 3). However, it is clear that this situation is recent; Berber-speaking Tuareg moved into the Central Sahara ∼1500 y ago and the spread of the Hassaniya Moors into Mauritania probably dates from the 15th Century (39). Before this time, the central and southern Sahara are thought to have been populated by Nilo-Saharan speakers. The Nilo-Saharan language phylum is both widespread and strongly internally divided, suggesting considerable antiquity (40) (Fig. 3). Its greatest diversity is in the east, where a large number of small branches are found (Fig. 3), suggesting the original locus of expansion. Although fragmented into enclave populations today, the presence and pattern of relic populations in the northern desert points strongly to a much wider distribution in the past, covering the region from the Ethio-Sudan borderland to Mauritania and southwest Morocco.


Sahara palaeohydrology overlaid with the spatial distribution of Ounanian and barbed bone points and Nilo-Saharan languages. The languages marked as “other” are too small to be depicted as separate colors; they are Nyimang, Temein, Hill Nubian, Daju, Berta, and Gumuz. Note the similarity between the distribution of barbed bone points and the distribution of species that require deep water (Fig. 2B and SI Appendix, Figs. S12 and S13).

It has long been suggested that Nilo-Saharan languages might correlate with barbed bone points, the so-called “Aqualithic” (35). Fig. 3 superimposes the sites of known barbed bone points on a map of current Nilo-Saharan languages, showing a remarkable similarity in spatial distribution, and also a notable correspondence with Holocene distribution of large aquatic species (e.g., Fig. 2A and SI Appendix, Fig. S12). It appears that the expansion of aquatic resources in the Holocene made the Sahara attractive to populations with existing fishing and riverine hunting skills (SI Appendix, Section 6). Their ability to hunt hippopotamus and crocodiles and to catch a wide variety of deepwater fish species would have propelled a rapid dispersal from east to west and into the central Sahara, to judge by the numerous branches of Nilo-Saharan in the east (Fig. 3 and SI Appendix, Section 6). Their movement further north would have been restricted by the absence of many of these species. However, the presence of an isolated Nilo-Saharan population (the Koranje, a branch of Songhay) and a barbed bone point in Northwest Africa near the headwaters of the catchment of the Soura River, the river that links the Atlas mountains to the lakes in the Ahnet-Mouydir basin (Fig. 1), forming a corridor from the central Sahara to Northwest Africa, indicates that a few groups may have traversed the green Sahara using the most promising routes. There is direct linguistic evidence that Nilo-Saharan populations exploited these aquatic resources in the form of a widespread cognate for “hippo” from Gumuz in Ethiopia, to Songhay in Mali (SI Appendix, Table S2). SI Appendix, Table S2 shows similar forms for “crocodile,” although in this case the cognates are split between eastern and western languages.

We hypothesize that the other economic revolution that occurred in the Sahara at approximately the same time was the southward spread of the bow and arrow. North African hunters would have observed the new abundance of large and unfamiliar land mammals to the south, notably elephant and giraffe. In a dispersal inverse to that of the Nilo-Saharans, they would have been attracted southward to hunt these animals with the bow and arrow. The “Ounanian” of Northern Mali, Southern Algeria, Niger, and central Egypt at ca. 10 ka is partly defined by a distinctive type of arrow point (37). These arrowheads are found in much of the northern Sahara (Fig. 3) and are generally considered to have spread from Northwest Africa. This view is supported by the affinity of this industry with the Epipalaeolithic that also appears to have colonized the Sahara from the north (41). No Ounanian points occur in West Africa before 10 ka, suggesting the movement of a technology across the desert from north to south around this time.

Our model envisages the initial Holocene repopulation of the Sahara being carried out by two separate populations practicing two quite different resource exploitation strategies: (i) aquatic foraging using bone point and fish hook technology, and (ii) savanna hunting using the bow and arrow. By linking the distribution of the Nilo-Saharan language phyla to the archaeological distribution of aquatic- and terrestrial-adapted technologies, we explain the pattern of human repopulation of the desert in terms of the changing faunal distribution, which is in turn dictated by the nature of trans-Saharan hydrological linkages.

Of course Nilo-Saharan speakers weren't the only ones in the North African region which explains the genetic heterogeneity due to admixture and/or language adoption, though there apparently remained some genetic continuity as shown in the studies below.

Extensive Admixture and Selective Pressure Across the Sahel Belt (2015) by Triska & Soares et ales.

*Daza = Toubou*



^ Note the main difference between the Toubou and Nubians is that the former has more Atlantic West African, slightly more Central West African, and even more North African alleles than the latter. While the latter has more Middle Eastern, European, and other alleles.

We also have this more recent study: Whole-genome sequence analysis of a Pan African set of samples reveals archaic gene flow from an extinct basal population of modern humans into sub-Saharan populations (2019) by Lorente-Galdos and Santpere et ales.


Principal component analysis (PCA) and ADMIXTURE. a First two components of a PCA, percentage of explained variance shown in axis; African samples are grouped in four major genetic ancestries, representative samples of each ancestry are shown with a circle colored with its correspondent main genetic ancestry estimated in b, North Africans and African samples not circled might be heavily admixed according to b; b ADMIXTURE plot for the 25 samples in our dataset; the seven ancestries are named according to individuals that have almost exclusively a given ancestry. The plot for the remaining 705 samples is shown in Additional file 1: Figure S6.3

^ According to the graph above both Toubou and West African Bantu are considered admixed no doubt due to their R1b-V88 lineage which is Eurasian so Toubou are intermediate to West African Bantu and North Africans in the admixture chart.

Interestingly, decades ago before molecular genetics you had anthropological writings on Toubou by Briggs:

A Review of the Physical Anthropology of the Sahara and Its Prehistoric Implications
L. Cabot Briggs
Man, Vol. 57, Feb., 1957 (Feb., 1957), pp. 20

The Teda

The essentially nomadic and semi-nomadic pastoral bandit Teda have often been supposed to represent the oldest surviving human strain in the Sahara. As far as their outward appearance goes, both metrically and morphologically, they look like half-Hamites, such as the Shilluk and the Dinka, and they speak Sudanic dialects. But their ABO blood-group distributions follow a typically Berber pattern, high in O and very low in B, whereas the Sudanese half-Hamites, as well as Negroes in general , all show high or very high B percentages. Thus the Teda appear to have Berber blood in Negro bodies.

One may suppose that the Teda are descendants of a Berber or proto-Berber population that has become progressively negrified by race mixture, or, following Dixon, they are survivors of an ancient'proto-negroid'that mixed with later invaders belonging to his 'Capsian' (my 'African Mediterranean')type. But the real answer can be found only after extensive studies of the distributions among them of blood groups other than those of the ABO series.

Well now we know that the Teda/Toubou represent rather a proto-Saharan people ancestral to many Nilo-Saharans and even some Berbers and perhaps others.
 

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Posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova (Member # 15718) on :
 
Regardless of whether the troll or any troll is present or not, this thread is an excellent topic for educating folks about the difference between physical populations and language/culture.

Indeed. What the trolls don’t realize is that all their trolling only opens
up yet more platforms and opportunities for real data and scholarship
to be put out there. If they had left well enough alone, and played fair,
the info would have remained buried in obscure academic journals and books.
Now it is all over the Net, with a community of active students and analysts
commenting and discussing- thus undermining and debunking all the bogus
claims they are trying to troll. Same thing with the Wikipedia trolls. By
constantly removing valid scholarship, they have only motivated people to
start publishing the scholarship far and wide online, on multiple platforms,
defeating all the bogus "stealth" edits and "admin" sandbagging by the lamers.. lol.


A Review of the Physical Anthropology of the Sahara and Its Prehistoric Implications L. Cabot Briggs Man, Vol. 57, Feb., 1957 (Feb., 1957), pp. 20

The Teda
The essentially nomadic and semi-nomadic pastoral bandit Teda have often been supposed to represent the oldest surviving human strain in the Sahara. As far as their outward appearance goes, both metrically and morphologically, they look like half-Hamites, such as the Shilluk and the Dinka, and they speak Sudanic dialects. But their ABO blood-group distributions follow a typically Berber pattern, high in O and very low in B, whereas the Sudanese half-Hamites, as well as Negroes in general , all show high or very high B percentages. Thus the Teda appear to have Berber blood in Negro bodies.

One may suppose that the Teda are descendants of a Berber or proto-Berber population that has become progressively negrified by race mixture, or, following Dixon, they are survivors of an ancient'proto-negroid'that mixed with later invaders belonging to his 'Capsian' (my 'African Mediterranean')type. But the real answer can be found only after extensive studies of the distributions among them of blood groups other than those of the ABO series.

^^A classic reference, with all the conventions of its day, including
“half-Hamites” who became “nigrified” and so on lol.. In one of his articles
Keita chortles at “Berber blood in Negro bodies”.. lol But yes, they
May well form one of the foundational populations of the Nilo-Saharan zone.
The Sahara itself is an immensely interesting area- a motor of Africa’s
evolution as Kruper or Krolein 2008 show, and also a “Pan African” entity
straddling the continent with zones of transition, and shifting peoples and
admixtures over the millennia. This complexity undermines assorted BS
claims and constructs such as the eternal “true negro” in static “sub Saharan”
locales. Some of these constructs including the obsolete “Hamite” variants are
alive and well in the bogus propaganda mills of the “alt” web.
 

---

Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
 
^ Right you are, Zarahan.

That's the reason why I like to cite old sources. Even though they're old they are not necessarily outdated, and even if they are, there are a few grains of salt that still hold relevance.

In the case of Briggs, while he was wrong about racial typology his findings on blood groupings was still true and when you put it together with latest DNA findings it paints a better picture of ancient North African populations. Speaking of which I forgot to mention that ironically while Briggs and other experts of his time identify high B and low O with "negroes", that same frequency is not only found among the Haratin but according to the findings of the 1973 G. Paoli research also among early dynastic Egyptians! Even today, many modern Egyptians have a significant frequency of type B blood, especially in the oases areas which contradicts the popular claim of Egyptians having close blood ties to Berbers whereas the Toubou do have such blood ties to the Berber. How ironic! In fact, this reminds me of the Karim Kamel et al. 1965 study ‘ABO blood groups and hemoglobin variants among Nubians, Egypt, U.A.R.’:

Three hundred and fifty‐six Nubians of Upper Egypt were tested for hemoglobin variants and ABO blood groups. No hemoglobin variants were detected. ABO allele frequencies for the Konouz are: A 19.31, B 11.08, O 69.59; for the Arabs — A 22.02, B 9.64, O 68.33; and for the Fedikyaee—A 24.46, B 9.54, O 65.98

As you can see from the findings, modern Nubians show the same blood type pattern as the Toubou—high O and low B.
 

---

Posted by sudaniya (Member # 15779) on :
 
Djehuti


Are there linguistic studies specifically linking Toubou with Sudanese languages beyond the fact they belong to the Nilo-Saharan phylum?

Also, what do you make of this study and its assertion that an:

quote:

---

an ‘unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes (S7B Fig)

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ Right you are, Zarahan.

That's the reason why I like to cite old sources. Even though they're old they are not necessarily outdated, and even if they are, there are a few grains of salt that still hold relevance.

In the case of Briggs, while he was wrong about racial typology his findings on blood groupings was still true and when you put it together with latest DNA findings it paints a better picture of ancient North African populations. Speaking of which I forgot to mention that ironically while Briggs and other experts of his time identify high B and low O with "negroes", that same frequency is not only found among the Haratin but according to the findings of the 1973 G. Paoli research also among early dynastic Egyptians! Even today, many modern Egyptians have a significant frequency of type B blood, especially in the oases areas which contradicts the popular claim of Egyptians having close blood ties to Berbers whereas the Toubou do have such blood ties to the Berber. How ironic! In fact, this reminds me of the Karim Kamel et al. 1965 study ‘ABO blood groups and hemoglobin variants among Nubians, Egypt, U.A.R.’:

Three hundred and fifty‐six Nubians of Upper Egypt were tested for hemoglobin variants and ABO blood groups. No hemoglobin variants were detected. ABO allele frequencies for the Konouz are: A 19.31, B 11.08, O 69.59; for the Arabs — A 22.02, B 9.64, O 68.33; and for the Fedikyaee—A 24.46, B 9.54, O 65.98

As you can see from the findings, modern Nubians show the same blood type pattern as the Toubou—high O and low B.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by sudaniya:

Djehuti

Are there linguistic studies specifically linking Toubou with Sudanese languages beyond the fact they belong to the Nilo-Saharan phylum?

---

quote:

---

Also, what do you make of this study and its assertion that an:

an ‘unadmixed’ Nubian gene-pool is genetically similar to Nilotes (S7B Fig) https://journals.plos.org/plosgenetics/article?id=10.1371/journal.pgen.1006976

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova:

Good work. Your reference some years back to an old study (Home of the heroes?)
showing that the very early inhabitants of Crete appeared pug-nosed
and "negroid" is an example of the diversity of phenotypes in the
Aegean region at that early time, a pattern that of course did not
stay the same as time went on. These old references can reveal
some very interesting patterns.

---

quote:

---

Strange thing about that type B. Back in Madilda's time an assortment of
Euronuts was using blood types to advance 'Aryan' claims, but it turned
out that while "Caucasoids" had more A and A2 blud, negroes and Egyptians
clustered together more on type B, that the touted "caucasoids".
Ah, the old days.. But as you show above, the diversity in the
region, with high O among the Nubian samples belays simple explanations.

---

quote:

---

some of these older writings hold the Toubou to be some sort of mixture,
and some argue for 2 types of Toubou- a "northern" Teda type- more "Caucasid"
versus a southern "Daza" group, mo "negroid". All these obsolete concepts
fail to take into account the diversity of African peoples who don;t
fall neatly into these pigeonholes. The US Army had a survey of the region
in the 1970s talking about a "Muslim" group compared to an "indigenous
Negroid group." Apparently it was beyond conception that
there could be people who were BOTH "Muslim" AND "Negroid."

---

quote:

---

Speaking of the DNA "admixture" concept and how it is so often applied to
Africa, what European groups would you say are "admixed" with Africans?

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
The countries and rulers' names are right here very clear.
Tell us what the primary document says they are, or kweikwai.
This isn't up for debate it's a matter of facts easily supported.
And no, they aren't Kushi, once you translate i'll post the map.


plate enlarged and in full @ http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061170.jpg

---

quote:

---

---

Nehesu/Nehesi they all are not...

quote:

---

Originally posted by Smnine-two:

---

Despite his ban, I do think he has a point in regard to correlation of lookism and tradition
 

---

Posted by Forty2Tribes (Member # 21799) on :
 
Djehuti? What makes a Nilo-Saharan language a Nilo-Saharan language in relation to other languages?
 

---

Posted by HeartofAfrica (Member # 23268) on :
 
And we know how the Ancient Egyptians felt about these raiding/conquering nomadic ppls and pastoralist African ethnic groups from the mountains and the Sahara. Who followed a nomadic honor code and some south Sudanese groups fit this distinction and did raid or try to raid Ancient Egypt towns/villages under Egyptian domain. Plus the Asiatics groups that would attack was apart of this nomadic paradigm.

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/236830492_A_Critical_Examination_of_Honor_Cultures_and_Herding_Societies_in_Africa
 

---

Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
 
^^^

He was banned more for political reasons than his often excellent though oversized visuals I suppose.

Wow! We could make post after post deep diving this art and text



But for now just this unrevisited opinion on the bowing ruler
of My3am, possibly the lead state of Wawat (Ta-Zeti, Kenset)
or whatever federate Lower Nubia ancient name one calls it.

quote:

---

Originally posted 03 January, 2011 by alTakruri:
From a TNV post in the thread Kushites in art

===

Not so much a correction as a "second opinion."

I didn't want to post the full size Denkmaeller
page because it would distort the forum format.

http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061170.jpg

While a transliteration is just substituting one
writing system's set of characters for another
I do very much like that word magistrate.

<-- these 2 rescinded imgs now restored



Heqanefer may've been an AE best attempt to
transcribe a personal (or even a place) name
from the language spoken in Ma`am or like
you say, a nickname. I doubt it being a proper
Egyptic name because (at least so far) I can
find no Egyptian so named.

One thing's certain, that magistrate's exercise
of heqa was surely nefer in the eyes of Huy.
Possibly, everyone and everything in that
scene behind and below him was under his
power which would be very high in level in
the empire; Huy being secondary to pharaoh
and Heqanefer being secondary to Huy.

I would very much like to look at the tomb
inscriptions of Heqanefer not out of any
skepticism but just to see what I can make
of them.

quote:

---

Arará_Sabalú wrote:

Thanks for the correction. And here is a bigger link to the picture:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1517/houyzh1.jpg

So, your transliteration would be

code:

---

sr (magistrate) n (of) m'm (Miam) Hq3 nfr (Heqanefer)

---

with Hq3 nfr bringing a new semantic information about this "sr", this person being a good ruler?

I tend to believe it was a (nick)name, not an occasional predicate though, since the tomb of this guy was found with apparently Hq3nfr as his name along with other facts identifying him with the one from Huy's tomb.

---

---

.


Procession of rulers over peoples upriver from Egypt
above Aswan in its four panel and full context from
Huy, 'viceroy' of the entire region, -- possibly

(img is a thread link, scroll to top)

as far south as Gezireh -- presenting them and
their best imports to pharaoh Tutankhamen.

The first panel:

• the ruler of My3am
• the rulers of W3yt
• children of rulers of various countries

• rulers of Kesh

How related are Nuba of Sudan to Shilluk, Nuer, and



Dinka of South Sudan? Dinka passed by the Nuba Hills
from Gezireh on their way to their present homelands.
Could it be the cattle and herders in panels 2 and 3
are ancestral to your current South Sudan Cattle Cult
peoples like Shilluk Nuer and the Dinka whose history
records that ethnic group's migration from Gezireh the
southernmost known extent of Kush in Southern Nubia.
Davidson concurs w/you @ 36:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X75COneJ4w8



Full gigargantornormous minutely zoomable repro restoration @
https://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/eg/original/LC-30.4.21%E2%80%93Clean_EGDP024932-1.jpg

DougM says Full tomb on Osiris net:
https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/houy40/e_houy40_01.htm
 

---

Posted by HeartofAfrica (Member # 23268) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
^^^

He was banned more for political reasons than his often excellent though oversized visuals I suppose.

Wow! We could make post after post deep diving this art and text



But for now just this unrevisited opinion on the bowing ruler
of My3am, possibly the lead state of Wawat (Ta-Zeti, Kenset)
or whatever federate Lower Nubia ancient name one calls it.

quote:

---

Originally posted 03 January, 2011 by alTakruri:
From a TNV post in the thread Kushites in art

===

Not so much a correction as a "second opinion."

I didn't want to post the full size Denkmaeller
page because it would distort the forum format.

http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061170.jpg

While a transliteration is just substituting one
writing system's set of characters for another
I do very much like that word magistrate.

<-- these 2 rescinded imgs now restored



Heqanefer may've been an AE best attempt to
transcribe a personal (or even a place) name
from the language spoken in Ma`am or like
you say, a nickname. I doubt it being a proper
Egyptic name because (at least so far) I can
find no Egyptian so named.

One thing's certain, that magistrate's exercise
of heqa was surely nefer in the eyes of Huy.
Possibly, everyone and everything in that
scene behind and below him was under his
power which would be very high in level in
the empire; Huy being secondary to pharaoh
and Heqanefer being secondary to Huy.

I would very much like to look at the tomb
inscriptions of Heqanefer not out of any
skepticism but just to see what I can make
of them.

quote:

---

Arará_Sabalú wrote:

Thanks for the correction. And here is a bigger link to the picture:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1517/houyzh1.jpg

So, your transliteration would be

code:

---

sr (magistrate) n (of) m'm (Miam) Hq3 nfr (Heqanefer)

---

with Hq3 nfr bringing a new semantic information about this "sr", this person being a good ruler?

I tend to believe it was a (nick)name, not an occasional predicate though, since the tomb of this guy was found with apparently Hq3nfr as his name along with other facts identifying him with the one from Huy's tomb.

---

---

.


Procession of rulers over peoples upriver from Egypt
above Aswan in its four panel and full context from
Huy, 'viceroy' of the entire region, -- possibly

(img is a thread link, scroll to top)

as far south as Gezireh -- presenting them and
their best imports to pharaoh Amenophis III.

The first panel:

• the ruler of My3am
• the rulers of W3yt
• children of rulers of various countries

The second panel:

• rulers of Kesh

How related are Nuba of Sudan to Shilluk, Nuer, and
Dinka of South Sudan? Dinka passed by the Nuba Hills
from Gezireh on their way to their present homelands.
Could it be the cattle and herders in panels 2 and 3
are ancestral to your current South Sudan Cattle Cult
peoples like Shilluk Nuer and the Dinka whose history
records that ethnic group's migration from Gezireh the
southernmost known extent of Kush in Southern Nubia.
Davidson concurs w/you @ 36:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X75COneJ4w8



Full gigargantornormous minutely zoomable repro restoration @
https://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/eg/original/LC-30.4.21%E2%80%93Clean_EGDP024932-1.jpg

DougM says Full tomb on Osiris net:
https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/houy40/e_houy40_01.htm

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by One Third African:
A Nubian Kingdom Rises

Most ES veterans will recognize Kerma as the first capital of the kingdom of Kush, and so some of the information here may be already familiar to us. But what stood out to me in this new article was the claim that the Kushites in Kerma would have coexisted with several other Sudanese cultures, including people from further south as well as the C-Group people to the north. Some juicy excerpts:

quote:

---

But Bonnet’s excavations are offering a markedly Nubian perspective on the earliest days of Kerma and its role as the capital of a far-reaching kingdom that dominated the Nile south of Egypt. His finds there and at a neighboring ancient settlement known as Dukki Gel suggest that this urban center was an ethnic melting pot, with origins tied to a complex web of cultures native to both the Sahara, and, farther south, parts of central Africa. These discoveries have gradually revealed the complex nature of a powerful African kingdom.

---

quote:

---

Bonnet’s work at Kerma quickly showed that Reisner was wrong. His team’s surveys of the city’s necropolis revealed 30,000 burials in addition to those Reisner had excavated, making it one of the largest cemeteries yet discovered in the ancient world. And after unearthing tombs, buildings, and pottery that predated the 1500 B.C. Egyptian invasion of Nubia, Bonnet realized that Kerma was not merely an Egyptian colony, but had been built and ruled by Nubians. “The country was wrongly believed to have only depended on Egypt,” says Bonnet. “I wanted to reconstruct a more accurate history of Sudan.” In addition to determining that Nubians had founded the city, the team began to identify evidence of other African cultures at Kerma. They discovered round huts, oval temples, and intricate curved-wall bastions that were distinct from both Egyptian and Nubian architecture, and instead mirrored buildings archaeologists have unearthed in southern Sudan and regions in central Africa. “We realized that the tombs, palaces, and temples stood out from Egyptian remains, and that a different tradition characterized the discoveries,” says Bonnet. “We were in another world.”

---

quote:

---

Some buildings Bonnet has unearthed at Kerma suggest that African influences from outside Nubia endured, and that foreign people continued to live at Kerma even after the C-Group departed. To him, the building styles there represent a conglomeration of cultures, with architecture not only influenced by Egyptian practices, but also inspired by other African traditions. In particular, a courtyard in the southern part of the city surrounded by circular structures and a small fort featuring curved defensive walls allude to African traditions that resemble modern architecture in Darfur, Ethiopia, and South Sudan. Much like the C-Group, however, the precise identity of these later African populations at Kerma remains unknown. Little archaeological research has been conducted in southern Sudan, and there are very few known sites with which to compare Kerma.

---

quote:

---

Bonnet wondered how an entire city built using non-Nubian African traditions and presumably serving a different population could have existed so close to Kerma. He notes that Egyptian sources say that their armies often contended not just with Nubians, but with coalitions of enemies to the south. Perhaps, he suggests, the kings of Kerma occasionally led a kind of federation of Nubians and Africans from farther south against Egypt. Leaders from the south may have brought their armies to Dukki Gel, which they built according to their traditions, and which might have functioned as a ceremonial and military center. Geomagnetic surveys at the site have yielded images of installations that might have been troop encampments, but these have yet to be excavated.

---

So basically it would have been a crossroads between Saharan and southern Sudanic Africa.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by HeartofAfrica:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Tukuler:
^^^

He was banned more for political reasons than his often excellent though oversized visuals I suppose.

Wow! We could make post after post deep diving this art and text



But for now just this unrevisited opinion on the bowing ruler
of My3am, possibly the lead state of Wawat (Ta-Zeti, Kenset)
or whatever federate Lower Nubia ancient name one calls it.

quote:

---

Originally posted 03 January, 2011 by alTakruri:
From a TNV post in the thread Kushites in art

===

Not so much a correction as a "second opinion."

I didn't want to post the full size Denkmaeller
page because it would distort the forum format.

http://edoc3.bibliothek.uni-halle.de/lepsius/page/abt3/band6/image/03061170.jpg

While a transliteration is just substituting one
writing system's set of characters for another
I do very much like that word magistrate.

<-- these 2 rescinded imgs now restored



Heqanefer may've been an AE best attempt to
transcribe a personal (or even a place) name
from the language spoken in Ma`am or like
you say, a nickname. I doubt it being a proper
Egyptic name because (at least so far) I can
find no Egyptian so named.

One thing's certain, that magistrate's exercise
of heqa was surely nefer in the eyes of Huy.
Possibly, everyone and everything in that
scene behind and below him was under his
power which would be very high in level in
the empire; Huy being secondary to pharaoh
and Heqanefer being secondary to Huy.

I would very much like to look at the tomb
inscriptions of Heqanefer not out of any
skepticism but just to see what I can make
of them.

quote:

---

Arará_Sabalú wrote:

Thanks for the correction. And here is a bigger link to the picture:

http://img225.imageshack.us/img225/1517/houyzh1.jpg

So, your transliteration would be

code:

---

sr (magistrate) n (of) m'm (Miam) Hq3 nfr (Heqanefer)

---

with Hq3 nfr bringing a new semantic information about this "sr", this person being a good ruler?

I tend to believe it was a (nick)name, not an occasional predicate though, since the tomb of this guy was found with apparently Hq3nfr as his name along with other facts identifying him with the one from Huy's tomb.

---

---

.


Procession of rulers over peoples upriver from Egypt
above Aswan in its four panel and full context from
Huy, 'viceroy' of the entire region, -- possibly

(img is a thread link, scroll to top)

as far south as Gezireh -- presenting them and
their best imports to pharaoh Amenophis III.

The first panel:

• the ruler of My3am
• the rulers of W3yt
• children of rulers of various countries

The second panel:

• rulers of Kesh

How related are Nuba of Sudan to Shilluk, Nuer, and
Dinka of South Sudan? Dinka passed by the Nuba Hills
from Gezireh on their way to their present homelands.
Could it be the cattle and herders in panels 2 and 3
are ancestral to your current South Sudan Cattle Cult
peoples like Shilluk Nuer and the Dinka whose history
records that ethnic group's migration from Gezireh the
southernmost known extent of Kush in Southern Nubia.
Davidson concurs w/you @ 36:30 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X75COneJ4w8



Full gigargantornormous minutely zoomable repro restoration @
https://images.metmuseum.org/CRDImages/eg/original/LC-30.4.21%E2%80%93Clean_EGDP024932-1.jpg

DougM says Full tomb on Osiris net:
https://www.osirisnet.net/tombes/nobles/houy40/e_houy40_01.htm

---

Thanks for this information, and you're thoughts, Tukuler. (I didn't know that you can super link, imgs)

quote:

---

Originally posted by One Third African:
A Nubian Kingdom Rises

Most ES veterans will recognize Kerma as the first capital of the kingdom of Kush, and so some of the information here may be already familiar to us. But what stood out to me in this new article was the claim that the Kushites in Kerma would have coexisted with several other Sudanese cultures, including people from further south as well as the C-Group people to the north. Some juicy excerpts:

quote:

---

But Bonnet’s excavations are offering a markedly Nubian perspective on the earliest days of Kerma and its role as the capital of a far-reaching kingdom that dominated the Nile south of Egypt. His finds there and at a neighboring ancient settlement known as Dukki Gel suggest that this urban center was an ethnic melting pot, with origins tied to a complex web of cultures native to both the Sahara, and, farther south, parts of central Africa. These discoveries have gradually revealed the complex nature of a powerful African kingdom.

---

quote:

---

Bonnet’s work at Kerma quickly showed that Reisner was wrong. His team’s surveys of the city’s necropolis revealed 30,000 burials in addition to those Reisner had excavated, making it one of the largest cemeteries yet discovered in the ancient world. And after unearthing tombs, buildings, and pottery that predated the 1500 B.C. Egyptian invasion of Nubia, Bonnet realized that Kerma was not merely an Egyptian colony, but had been built and ruled by Nubians. “The country was wrongly believed to have only depended on Egypt,” says Bonnet. “I wanted to reconstruct a more accurate history of Sudan.” In addition to determining that Nubians had founded the city, the team began to identify evidence of other African cultures at Kerma. They discovered round huts, oval temples, and intricate curved-wall bastions that were distinct from both Egyptian and Nubian architecture, and instead mirrored buildings archaeologists have unearthed in southern Sudan and regions in central Africa. “We realized that the tombs, palaces, and temples stood out from Egyptian remains, and that a different tradition characterized the discoveries,” says Bonnet. “We were in another world.”

---

quote:

---

Some buildings Bonnet has unearthed at Kerma suggest that African influences from outside Nubia endured, and that foreign people continued to live at Kerma even after the C-Group departed. To him, the building styles there represent a conglomeration of cultures, with architecture not only influenced by Egyptian practices, but also inspired by other African traditions. In particular, a courtyard in the southern part of the city surrounded by circular structures and a small fort featuring curved defensive walls allude to African traditions that resemble modern architecture in Darfur, Ethiopia, and South Sudan. Much like the C-Group, however, the precise identity of these later African populations at Kerma remains unknown. Little archaeological research has been conducted in southern Sudan, and there are very few known sites with which to compare Kerma.

---

quote:

---

Bonnet wondered how an entire city built using non-Nubian African traditions and presumably serving a different population could have existed so close to Kerma. He notes that Egyptian sources say that their armies often contended not just with Nubians, but with coalitions of enemies to the south. Perhaps, he suggests, the kings of Kerma occasionally led a kind of federation of Nubians and Africans from farther south against Egypt. Leaders from the south may have brought their armies to Dukki Gel, which they built according to their traditions, and which might have functioned as a ceremonial and military center. Geomagnetic surveys at the site have yielded images of installations that might have been troop encampments, but these have yet to be excavated.

---

So basically it would have been a crossroads between Saharan and southern Sudanic Africa.

---

"In particular, a courtyard in the southern part of the city surrounded by circular structures and a small fort featuring curved defensive walls allude to African traditions that resemble modern architecture in Darfur, Ethiopia, and South Sudan."

One Third's thread correlates to what you have mapped out and pretty much what i've said. Along with the thread you hyperlinked.

---

quote:

---

"Doug M says". Thats funny.

But yes, the issue as I have mentioned numerous times is that the whole idea of "Nubia" is a complete joke. Sudan to this day is a very diverse country and not a monolithic ethnic group, culture, language and so forth. And that even goes moreso for the ancient Nile Valley, where outside of Kmt, which was a formal nation state, other groups were much more distinct in terms of individual cultural and ethnic identities. As the images from the tomb show, the 18th Dynasty had stretched all the way down into the region of the 6th Cataract. Those are the same regions that would later become Kush and afterwards Meroe. Lumping all those different ethnic groups along the NIle and regions away from the Nile into a single ethno-state in ancient times is nonsense.

The people in ancient times were much more nomadic and clung to those pastoralist ways without a common writing system for many years long after Kemet was born. And linguistically they had various tongues that they spoke and not any single unified language. It is silly and ridiculous to lump them together as anything more than a group of loosely knit trading networks and cultures. Kemet was a nation state unified under a single political banner and cultural identity. The groups to the South of Kemet were nowhere near as organized and unified as implied by the usage of the word "Nubia" signifying a common political, cultural and ethnic identity. This is where the confusion comes into play as to what people are referring to when they say "Nubian". "Nubians" in Sudan today are primarily populations in Lower Sudan (and Upper Egypt) who reject Arab identity and culture. They are not the same as the Dinka and Nuer and other folks farther South in Sudan.

As far as Egyptology goes, these distinctions don't matter, because to them "Nubian" means black folks to the South of Kemet. Which is hilarious because Kemet means black, so we know that is absolute nonsense.

The Africans along the Nile that developed a sedentary lifestyle with writing and a centrally organized nation state coalesced into what we know as Ancient Egypt. The rest of Africa and most of the world still remained very nomadic in nature and based on smaller clan identities and some smaller settlements in various places. And along the Nile and elsewhere in Africa following pastoral traditions which meant being able to roam over large regions free from the concepts of political borders and boundaries. This has always been a problem in Africa where foreigners arbitrarily drew borders around populations that historically never identified as a single monolithic entity.

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quote:

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Monday, September 21, 2015
Vasco-Nubian
Maju, who is in addition to being a public intellectual, a Basque person who is fluent in the Basque language, discusses the possibility that the hypothetical Vasconic language family of which Basque is a part and all other members are extinct, may be derived from the Nilo-Saharan Nubian languages of Africa, with substantial later contributions from Proto-Indo-European (as opposed, for example, to its later variants), i.e. a Vasco-Nubian hypothesis.

He suggests a Mesolithic (i.e. immediately pre-invention of farming) presence in the Levant of Nilo-Saharan language speakers, whose language becomes the language of the first farmers of Europe and then is bit by bit replaced by Indo-European languages at a later date.

He makes an effort at mass lexical comparison with a Swadesh list of words that shows a much stronger than random chance relationship. I've looked at the phonetics and grammar and it isn't too much of a stretch on that front at that time depth.

---

quote:

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eptember 17, 2015
Vasco-Nubian?
This is something I've been chewing on for more than a year now and yet never got myself to blog about (although I have mentioned in private or in comments here and there). Impelled by the minor but quite apparent NE African influence, genetic and cultural, on the Neolithic peoples of the Levant, whose offshoots eventually landed in Greece triggering the European Neolithic, I decided in the Spring of 2014 to explore, via mass-lexical comparison, if Basque language (and by extension the wider Vasconic family, which I believe now to be that of mainline European Neolithic) might have any relation with Nubian languages. I did not expect to find anything but noise but to my surprise the number of apparent cognates is quite significant.

My primary analysis was this one but now I have combined it with a comparison with Proto-Indoeuropean (PIE), which is also very probably related to the roots of Vasconic: LINK (open office spreadsheet).

The synthesis is as follows:


Of course the "cognates" are only apparent cognates at this stage of the research and the evaluation is necessarily subjective. But judge yourselves.

If we discard the "weak" apparent cognates, the vocabulary correlation between Basque and Nubian and between Basque and PIE is pretty similar. But, in my understanding, both are well above the noise threshold, an example of which could be the PIE-Nubian apparent cognates, which are many many less.

I must say anyhow that the oblique apparent cognates, that is when one word sounds much not like its strict synonym but a related one (for example words meaning hot and fire), look all very solid and most intriguing.

Also, when attributing probabilities to origins of Basque words, Nubian appears to be at the origin of almost double the words (26%) that can be attributed to PIE (15%). Of course, for lack of data or because they actually have other origins, the unknown origins apply to the majority of words (56%), double than the Nubian origin ones.

However Nubian here is constituted of three different languages (Dilling, Nobiin and Midob), while PIE is just a single theoretical construct. This last must be done this way because many modern and historical IE languages, notably in Europe, have other Vasconic substrate influences, which must be studied separately from general PIE-Vasconic shared vocabulary. This kind of late Vasconic influence is very much unlikely in the case of Nubian instead. In any case I don't know of any a proto-Nubian Swadesh list readily available.

Finally I must mention that because the PDF format is horrible for copy-pasting, I chose to re-transcribe the Nubian words according to my best approximation using a normal keyboard (not always the same characters that the original list uses).


Strongest Basque-Nubian apparent simple cognates

Basque - Nubian languages (English)
azal - àzì, àzzì-di (bark)
haragi - árízh (meat)
odol - ógór, èggér (blood)
buru - úr (head)
oin - ó:y (foot)
esku - ish-i, ès-sì (hand)
hil* - di-ìl (to die)
euri - are, ara, áwwí, áré, árí, áró (rain)
harri - kugor, kakar (stone) [notice also the pre-IE root *kharr- speculated to be at the origin of Karst, etc.]
lur - gùr (soil, ground)
haize - irsh-i, éss-í (wind)

There are some others that are shared with Indo-European and with similar subjective "weight", not listing them here to keep things clear. There are also other apparent cognates that are arguably less clear like bat - be (one) that I'm also skipping here but you can find in the spreadsheet.

*Hil (meaning both to die and to kill in Basque, which can't be confused because they conjugate differently) seems ancestral to English ill and kill (this one via a Germanic precursor).


The intriguing oblique cognates

Notice that these words do not mean the same, yet their meanings seem strikingly related.
Nubian (English) - Basque (English)
hor, koy, kà:r (tree) - harri (stone) [notice that zuhaitz (tree) can be interpreted etymologically as zur-haitz = wood-rock, so the relation is not that weird]
ok-i, og (breast) - ogi (bread)
a-l (heart) - ahal (can (verb), potential, power)
azh, àz-ír, àzza (to bite) - (h)ortz (tooth), aitz (rock, peak) [some argue that originally "to cut", present in many cutting tool names: aizkor = axe, aitzur = hoe, aizto = knife, etc.*]
shu, zhúù (to walk) - joan (to go) [often pronounced jun or shun]
é:zhi (water) - heze (wet) [also archaic particle *iz-, meaning "water" by all accounts: itxaso = sea, izurde = dolphin, izotz = ice, and common in Vasconic river toponymy]
zhuge (to burn) - su (fire)
zhùg, sù, sú:w (hot) - su (fire)
úr-i, úrúm (black) - urdin (blue) [archaic also green, grey]

*This one is an obvious and very prevalent Vasconic substrate infiltrator in Western IE languages: axe, adze, azada (hoe in Spanish), etc.


How can this be possible?

It is of course a mere working hypothesis and ultimately you judge but I find it hard to disdain. However there is no apparent connection, notably no significant genetic connection, between Basques and Nubians. So how can we explain this?

I have it reasonably clear myself, so I made a map to explain it:

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

"Doug M says". Thats funny.

But yes, the issue as I have mentioned numerous times is that the whole idea of "Nubia" is a complete joke. Sudan to this day is a very diverse country and not a monolithic ethnic group, culture, language and so forth. And that even goes moreso for the ancient Nile Valley, where outside of Kmt, which was a formal nation state, other groups were much more distinct in terms of individual cultural and ethnic identities. As the images from the tomb show, the 18th Dynasty had stretched all the way down into the region of the 6th Cataract. Those are the same regions that would later become Kush and afterwards Meroe. Lumping all those different ethnic groups along the NIle and regions away from the Nile into a single ethno-state in ancient times is nonsense.

The people in ancient times were much more nomadic and clung to those pastoralist ways without a common writing system for many years long after Kemet was born. And linguistically they had various tongues that they spoke and not any single unified language. It is silly and ridiculous to lump them together as anything more than a group of loosely knit trading networks and cultures. Kemet was a nation state unified under a single political banner and cultural identity. The groups to the South of Kemet were nowhere near as organized and unified as implied by the usage of the word "Nubia" signifying a common political, cultural and ethnic identity. This is where the confusion comes into play as to what people are referring to when they say "Nubian". "Nubians" in Sudan today are primarily populations in Lower Sudan (and Upper Egypt) who reject Arab identity and culture. They are not the same as the Dinka and Nuer and other folks farther South in Sudan.

As far as Egyptology goes, these distinctions don't matter, because to them "Nubian" means black folks to the South of Kemet. Which is hilarious because Kemet means black, so we know that is absolute nonsense.

The Africans along the Nile that developed a sedentary lifestyle with writing and a centrally organized nation state coalesced into what we know as Ancient Egypt. The rest of Africa and most of the world still remained very nomadic in nature and based on smaller clan identities and some smaller settlements in various places. And along the Nile and elsewhere in Africa following pastoral traditions which meant being able to roam over large regions free from the concepts of political borders and boundaries. This has always been a problem in Africa where foreigners arbitrarily drew borders around populations that historically never identified as a single monolithic entity.

---

Agreed. I don't like using the word Nubian but people recognize this word as an identifier for the region below Egypt.

The history of the Nile Valley is complicated. I know that Narmer was the first inhabitant of the Nile Valley to declare he was Kushite. I have read many ancient documents but up to now I still don't understand what the Egyptians had against the concept of Kush. But what we do know is that the Nehesy state of Ta-Seti decided to form the ancient Egypt state which was a Pan-African confederation

No matter, what the truth is, Egypt was a strong nation completely surrounded by Kushites it maintained its identity for thousands of years. In addition, it was able to Keep the Lower Egyptian Kushites (or Hyksos), loyal to the nation.

It seems to me tht the Kushites, for much of their history refused to make public the knowledge they knew about the Universe that was maintained in the secret society. The Egyptians in their monuments and text made this knowledge evident for all of us to see. We can thank the Egyptians for granting us insights into the knowledge held secret. Just imagine what knowledge is still hidden from us in the secret societies that the members can not tell us.

Tukuler is right we need to translate the documents our self so we can see what they really say. I only studied ancient Egyptian to look at its linguistic character, now, I wish I would have learned the language like I learned several other languages.

Today I am old. At 70 years old it is only a matter of time before I return home to the ancestors.

I hope some of you will seriously study the history of the Nile Valley and transmit the true history of this region. Right now, Eurocentrists are telling us many half-truths.

Aluta continua......

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quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Doug M:
"Doug M says". Thats funny.

---

Agreed. I don't like using the word Nubian but people recognize this word as an identifier for the region below Egypt.

But what we do know is that the Nehesy state of Ta-Seti decided to form the ancient Egypt state which was a [...]African confederation


It seems to me that the Kushites, for much of their history refused to make public the knowledge they knew about the Universe that was maintained in the secret society. The Egyptians in their monuments and text made this knowledge evident for all of us to see.


we need to translate the documents our self so we can see what they really say.


Today I am old. At 70 years old it is only a matter of time before I return home to the ancestors.


Aluta continua......

---

Hope you are well.

to me, the Nile Valley was a region of Africa surrounded by more Africans. "Nubia" is simply a distraction. Africans have never been unified by "Africanness" ever. Nor have they been unified by skin color, ever. They are still all Africans regardless. Sudan just split in half due to this and none of them are any more or less African than the other.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
^^^^ Dr. Winters...I pray that all is well with you. You have all of my respect as a person who have followed this blog and watched your videos for years... Have you seen the following..? It seems to converge with your Kushite hypothesis

quote:

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Monday, September 21, 2015
Vasco-Nubian
Maju, who is in addition to being a public intellectual, a Basque person who is fluent in the Basque language, discusses the possibility that the hypothetical Vasconic language family of which Basque is a part and all other members are extinct, may be derived from the Nilo-Saharan Nubian languages of Africa, with substantial later contributions from Proto-Indo-European (as opposed, for example, to its later variants), i.e. a Vasco-Nubian hypothesis.

He suggests a Mesolithic (i.e. immediately pre-invention of farming) presence in the Levant of Nilo-Saharan language speakers, whose language becomes the language of the first farmers of Europe and then is bit by bit replaced by Indo-European languages at a later date.

He makes an effort at mass lexical comparison with a Swadesh list of words that shows a much stronger than random chance relationship. I've looked at the phonetics and grammar and it isn't too much of a stretch on that front at that time depth.

---

http://dispatchesfromturtleisland.blogspot.com/2015/09/vasco-nubian.html

quote:

---

eptember 17, 2015
Vasco-Nubian?
This is something I've been chewing on for more than a year now and yet never got myself to blog about (although I have mentioned in private or in comments here and there). Impelled by the minor but quite apparent NE African influence, genetic and cultural, on the Neolithic peoples of the Levant, whose offshoots eventually landed in Greece triggering the European Neolithic, I decided in the Spring of 2014 to explore, via mass-lexical comparison, if Basque language (and by extension the wider Vasconic family, which I believe now to be that of mainline European Neolithic) might have any relation with Nubian languages. I did not expect to find anything but noise but to my surprise the number of apparent cognates is quite significant.

My primary analysis was this one but now I have combined it with a comparison with Proto-Indoeuropean (PIE), which is also very probably related to the roots of Vasconic: LINK (open office spreadsheet).

The synthesis is as follows:


Of course the "cognates" are only apparent cognates at this stage of the research and the evaluation is necessarily subjective. But judge yourselves.

If we discard the "weak" apparent cognates, the vocabulary correlation between Basque and Nubian and between Basque and PIE is pretty similar. But, in my understanding, both are well above the noise threshold, an example of which could be the PIE-Nubian apparent cognates, which are many many less.

I must say anyhow that the oblique apparent cognates, that is when one word sounds much not like its strict synonym but a related one (for example words meaning hot and fire), look all very solid and most intriguing.

Also, when attributing probabilities to origins of Basque words, Nubian appears to be at the origin of almost double the words (26%) that can be attributed to PIE (15%). Of course, for lack of data or because they actually have other origins, the unknown origins apply to the majority of words (56%), double than the Nubian origin ones.

However Nubian here is constituted of three different languages (Dilling, Nobiin and Midob), while PIE is just a single theoretical construct. This last must be done this way because many modern and historical IE languages, notably in Europe, have other Vasconic substrate influences, which must be studied separately from general PIE-Vasconic shared vocabulary. This kind of late Vasconic influence is very much unlikely in the case of Nubian instead. In any case I don't know of any a proto-Nubian Swadesh list readily available.

Finally I must mention that because the PDF format is horrible for copy-pasting, I chose to re-transcribe the Nubian words according to my best approximation using a normal keyboard (not always the same characters that the original list uses).


Strongest Basque-Nubian apparent simple cognates

Basque - Nubian languages (English)
azal - àzì, àzzì-di (bark)
haragi - árízh (meat)
odol - ógór, èggér (blood)
buru - úr (head)
oin - ó:y (foot)
esku - ish-i, ès-sì (hand)
hil* - di-ìl (to die)
euri - are, ara, áwwí, áré, árí, áró (rain)
harri - kugor, kakar (stone) [notice also the pre-IE root *kharr- speculated to be at the origin of Karst, etc.]
lur - gùr (soil, ground)
haize - irsh-i, éss-í (wind)

There are some others that are shared with Indo-European and with similar subjective "weight", not listing them here to keep things clear. There are also other apparent cognates that are arguably less clear like bat - be (one) that I'm also skipping here but you can find in the spreadsheet.

*Hil (meaning both to die and to kill in Basque, which can't be confused because they conjugate differently) seems ancestral to English ill and kill (this one via a Germanic precursor).


The intriguing oblique cognates

Notice that these words do not mean the same, yet their meanings seem strikingly related.
Nubian (English) - Basque (English)
hor, koy, kà:r (tree) - harri (stone) [notice that zuhaitz (tree) can be interpreted etymologically as zur-haitz = wood-rock, so the relation is not that weird]
ok-i, og (breast) - ogi (bread)
a-l (heart) - ahal (can (verb), potential, power)
azh, àz-ír, àzza (to bite) - (h)ortz (tooth), aitz (rock, peak) [some argue that originally "to cut", present in many cutting tool names: aizkor = axe, aitzur = hoe, aizto = knife, etc.*]
shu, zhúù (to walk) - joan (to go) [often pronounced jun or shun]
é:zhi (water) - heze (wet) [also archaic particle *iz-, meaning "water" by all accounts: itxaso = sea, izurde = dolphin, izotz = ice, and common in Vasconic river toponymy]
zhuge (to burn) - su (fire)
zhùg, sù, sú:w (hot) - su (fire)
úr-i, úrúm (black) - urdin (blue) [archaic also green, grey]

*This one is an obvious and very prevalent Vasconic substrate infiltrator in Western IE languages: axe, adze, azada (hoe in Spanish), etc.


How can this be possible?

It is of course a mere working hypothesis and ultimately you judge but I find it hard to disdain. However there is no apparent connection, notably no significant genetic connection, between Basques and Nubians. So how can we explain this?

I have it reasonably clear myself, so I made a map to explain it:

---

http://forwhattheywereweare.blogspot.com/2015/09/vasco-nubian.html

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by the lioness,:
What about the term "Kemet" ?

Isn't that term used to separate the North from the South?

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quote:

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Originally posted by One Third African:
I feel that "Nubian" is most appropriate for speakers of modern Nubian languages, i.e. descendents of the Nobatae and related ethnic groups who entered the Middle Nile Valley after the kingdom of Kush fell. It shouldn't be used for Kushites, Wawatians/C-Group people, or anyone else who occupied the northern Sudan prior to those migrations.

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