This is topic recent origin North African paternal lineage E-M183 (E-M81) Morata, 2017 in forum Egyptology at EgyptSearch Forums.


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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-16271-y?fbclid=IwAR23g0zmbdtMZ1hpL8YA_W1vnccjR3KBM600akdwBhXixQ8YfWvD-6y_yGY

(excerpt)

Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)

Neus Solé-Morata, Carla García-Fernández, Vadim Urasin, Asmahan Bekada, Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid, Pierre Zalloua, David Comas & Francesc Calafell
Scientific Reports volume 7, Article number: 15941 (2017)

Abstract
E-M183 (E-M81) is the most frequent paternal lineage in North Africa and thus it must be considered to explore past historical and demographical processes. Here, by using whole Y chromosome sequences from 32 North African individuals, we have identified five new branches within E-M183. The validation of these variants in more than 200 North African samples, from which we also have information of 13 Y-STRs, has revealed a strong resemblance among E-M183 Y-STR haplotypes that pointed to a rapid expansion of this haplogroup. Moreover, for the first time, by using both SNP and STR data, we have provided updated estimates of the times-to-the-most-recent-common-ancestor (TMRCA) for E-M183, which evidenced an extremely recent origin of this haplogroup (2,000–3,000 ya). Our results also showed a lack of population structure within the E-M183 branch, which could be explained by the recent and rapid expansion of this haplogroup. In spite of a reduction in STR heterozygosity towards the West, which would point to an origin in the Near East, ancient DNA evidence together with our TMRCA estimates point to a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa.

Besides geography, cultural diversity must also be considered. Two branches of languages belonging to the Afro-Asiatic family define two major groups in North Africa: Arabs and Berbers. Arabic languages and culture, as well as the Islamic religion, were brought from the Near East during the Islamic expansion. The Berber people, characterized for speaking Berber languages, are considered the direct descendants of the ancestral pre-Arabic peoples of North Africa20. However, the Berber language and ethnicity should not be equated: many Berber speakers live in large cities, particularly in Morocco and Algeria, and some populations with traditional lifestyles, such as the Reguibates, speak Arabic dialects. In spite of their cultural differences, Y-chromosome SNPs and STRs21, and autosomal haplotype-based methods20 have demonstrated the absence of strong genetic differences between Berbers and Arabs.

Studies based on the Y chromosome have highlighted E-M78 and E-M81 as the most frequent paternal lineages in North Africa, although they showed different distribution patterns. Whereas the frequency of E-M78 declines towards Northwest Africa, E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East; it is found sporadically in S Europe and E Africa, and it is practically absent elsewhere. These evidences suggest that E-M81 must be considered to explore the historical and demographical processes that gave rise to current North African populations. However, little is known about the phylogeographic structure of this haplogroup and its origin and emergence are still very controversial. While some studies pointed to a Palaeolithic origin21, other authors claimed that E-M81 may have a Neolithic origin22. The most likely scenario, as suggested by Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.17, is that the origin of E-M81 is more recent than previously reported.

In the present project, we analyse whole Y chromosome sequences from 32 North African individuals selected by carrying the derived allele at M183. M183 was first described by Karafet et al.5, and appears to be an extremely dominant subclade within E-M81, to the point that E-M81*(xM183) individuals are very rare. Since we found no samples derived for E-M81 and ancestral for E-M183, we selected our individuals on the basis of E-M183. The aim of the present study is to provide a phylogeographic refinement of this paternal lineage in order to shed light on the human population history of North Africa. By using whole Y chromosome sequences, we have been able to describe E-M183 subbranches that will be used to define whether this lineage presents any geographical substructure. Next, by using STRs we will interrogate the genetic diversity within E-M183 subclades in a larger dataset. Finally, both SNP data and STRs will be used to provide updated time constraints of the spread of E-M183.







We have estimated the divergence of the E-M183 branch from its sister, E-M78, around 9,700 ya (Table 2) when using a fast mutation rate and ~12,700 ya when a slow mutation rate is considered (see methods). Both a frequentist (ρ) and a Bayesian method gave similar results. Regardless of using a Bayesian or a Rho-based approach, our findings when using SNP data suggest that E-M183 originated around 2,000 years ago (ya).


Origin and dispersion

The star-like structure observed in the median-joining network of E-M183 (Fig. 3), could shed some light on the dispersion of E-M183. We found that Y-STRs are extremely homogeneous across E-M183 subhaplogroups, with the same haplotype shared by samples belonging to different subclades (Fig. 3b). This extreme homogeneity could be attributed to a recent and rapid radiation of this Y chromosomal branch25,26, which is also seen in the fact that most of its subclades seem to have appeared almost simultaneously.

Discussion

Several studies have explored the paternal structure of North Africa showing that E-M183 is the most frequent paternal lineage in North Africa17,22,28. However, these analyses focused on targeted SNPs of the Y chromosome, preventing the discovery of new variation within its sequence. Here, by using whole Y chromosome sequences, we have been able to increase the knowledge of internal new branches within E-M183, which has led to a refinement of the phylogeography of this lineage, and to shed light on the controversial dates for its origin.

Our results evidenced that Y-STR haplotypes within E-M183 individuals are strikingly similar to each other and thus, subhaplogroups within E-M183 cannot be distinguished from each other based on Y-STR differences. As proposed by Larmuseau et al.25, the scenario that better explains Y-STR haplotype similarity within a particular haplogroup is a recent and rapid radiation of subhaplogroups. Although the dating of this lineage has been controversial, with dates proposed ranging from Paleolithic to Neolithic and to more recent times17,22,28, our results suggested that the origin of E-M183 is much more recent than was previously thought. Whereas other studies have relied only on STR data to provide time estimates, here, for the first time, we have used Y chromosomal sequence data to calculate the TMRCA for E-M183. As a result, we have been able to update the TMRCA for this haplogroup by using both SNP and STR data, avoiding a possible bias introduced by inferring the TMRCA using only rapid mutation rates. In addition to the recent radiation suggested by the high haplotype resemblance, the pattern showed by E-M183 imply that subhaplogroups originated within a relatively short time period, in a burst similar to those happening in many Y-chromosome haplogroups23.

Regarding the geographical origin of E-M183, a previous study22 suggested that an expansion from the Near East could explain the observed east-west cline of genetic variation that extends into the Near East. Indeed, our results also showed a reduction in STR heterozygosity towards the West (Supplementary Fig. S3), which may be taken to support the hypothesis of an expansion from the Near East. In addition, previous studies based on genome-wide SNPs15,20 reported that a North African autochthonous component increase towards the West whereas the Near Eastern decreases towards the same direction, which again support an expansion from the Near East. However, our correlations should be taken carefully because our analysis includes only six locations on the longitudinal axis, none from the Near East. As a result, we do not have sufficient statistical power to confirm a Near Eastern origin. In addition, rather than showing a west-to-east cline of genetic diversity, the overall picture shown by this correlation analysis evidences just low genetic diversity in Western Sahara, which indeed could be also caused by the small sample size (n = 26) in this region. Alternatively, given the high frequency of E-M183 in the Maghreb, a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa could be envisaged, which would fit the clear pattern of longitudinal isolation by distance reported in genome-wide studies15,20. Moreover, the presence of autochthonous North African E-M81 lineages in the indigenous population of the Canary Islands, strongly points to North Africa as the most probable origin of the Guanche ancestors29. This, together with the fact that the oldest indigenous inviduals have been dated 2210 ± 60 ya, supports a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa. Within this scenario, it is also worth to mention that the paternal lineage of an early Neolithic Moroccan individual appeared to be distantly related to the typically North African E-M81 haplogroup30, suggesting again a NW African origin of E-M183. A local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa > 2200 ya is supported by our TMRCA estimates, which can be taken as 2,000–3,000, depending on the data, methods, and mutation rates used.

Regarding E-M183, as mentioned above, we cannot discard an expansion from the Near East and, if so, according to our time estimates, it could have been brought by the Islamic expansion on the 7th century, but definitely not with the Neolithic expansion, which appeared in NW Africa ~7400 BP and may have featured a strong Epipaleolithic persistence31. Moreover, such a recent appearance of E-M183 in NW Africa would fit with the patterns observed in the rest of the genome, where an extensive, male-biased Near Eastern admixture event is registered ~1300 ya, coincidental with the Arab expansion20. An alternative hypothesis would involve that E-M183 was originated somewhere in Northwest Africa and then spread through all the region. Our time estimates for the origin of this haplogroup overlap with the end of the third Punic War (146 BCE), when Carthage (in current Tunisia) was defeated and destroyed, which marked the beginning of Roman hegemony of the Mediterranean Sea. About 2,000 ya North Africa was one of the wealthiest Roman provinces and E-M183 may have experienced the resulting population growth.

Figure 2 shows that PF6789 is very frequent in Oran (Algeria), Tunisia and Libya, and is present in the Near East and the Iberian Peninsula. Finally, surprisingly the highest frequency of M183* is shown in the Iberian sample which, given the low frequency values of E-M183 in the area, could be attributed to genetic drift acting on a low-frequency variant.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reguibat_tribe

The Reguibat
(Algeria)

The Reguibat (Arabic: الرقيبات‎; variously transliterated Reguibate, Rguibat, R'gaybat, R'gibat, Erguibat, Ergaybat) is a nomad Sahrawi tribe of Sanhaja-Berber origins.The Reguibat speak Hassaniya Arabic, and are Arabized in culture. They claim descent from Sidi Ahmed Rguibi, who lived in the Saguia el-Hamra region in the 16th century.[citation needed] They also believe that they are, through him, a chorfa tribe, i.e. descendants of Muhammad. Religiously, they belong to the Maliki school of Sunni Islam.

Initially an important Arabic zawiya or religious tribe with a semi-sedentary lifestyle, the Reguibat gradually turned during the 18th century towards camel-rearing, raiding and nomadism, in response attacks from neighbouring tribes which provoked them into taking up arms and leaving the subordinate position they had previously held. This started a process of rapid expansion, and set the Reguibat on the course towards total transformation into a traditional warrior tribe[5] In the late 19th century, they had become well-established as the largest Sahrawi tribe, and were recognized as the most powerful warrior tribe of the area.[5]

The grazing lands of the Reguibat fractions extended from Western Sahara into the northern half of Mauritania, the edges of southern Morocco and northern Mali, and large swaths of western Algeria (where they captured the town of Tindouf from the Tajakant tribe in 1895, and turned into an important Reguibat encampment).[5] The Reguibat were known for their skill as warriors, as well as for an uncompromising tribal independence, and dominated large areas of the Sahara desert through both trade and use of arms.[5]

Reguibat Sahrawis were very prominent in the resistance to French and Spanish colonization in the 19th and 20th century, and could not be subdued in the Spanish Sahara until 1934, almost 50 years after the area was first colonized by Spain.[5] Since the 1970s, many Reguibat have been active in the Polisario Front's resistance to Moroccan rule over the still non-sovereign Western Sahara territory. Polisario leader Mohamed Abdelaziz was Reguibi, as is the Moroccan CORCAS leader Khalihenna Ould Errachid.



Old Sahrawi man and his camel, in the Dakhla refugee camp, in Tindouf province (Algeria).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sahrawi_people#/media/File:Sahrawi&camel.jpg
 

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Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

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E-M183 is extremely dominant (more than 99%[64]) within E-M81. Karafet et al. 2008 first described it as a subclade of E-M81. The known subclades of E-M183 include:

E-M165 Underhill et al. 2000 found one example in Middle East.

E-L351 Found in two related participants in The E-M35 Phylogeny Project.

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E-M81 (M81)[9]

E-M81*
E-PF2546
E-PF2546*
E-CTS12227
E-MZ11
E-MZ12

E-A929
E-Z5009
E-Z5009*
E-Z5010
E-Z5013
E-Z5013*
E-A1152

E-A2227
E-A428
E-MZ16

E-PF6794
E-PF6794*
E-PF6789
E-MZ21
E-MZ23
E-MZ80

E-A930
E-Z2198/E-MZ46
E-A601
E-L351

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[...] our findings when using SNP data suggest that E-M183 originated around 2,000 years ago (ya).

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In this study we analyzed 295 unrelated Berber-speaking men from northern, central, and southern Morocco to characterize frequency of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup and to refine the phylogeny of its subclades: E1b1b1b1-M107, E1b1b1b2-M183, and E1b1b1b2a-M165. For this purpose, we typed four biallelic polymorphisms: M81, M107, M183, and M165. A large majority of the Berber-speaking male lineages belonged to the Y-chromosomal E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup. The frequency ranged from 79.1% to 98.5% in all localities sampled. E1b1b1b2-M183 was the most dominant subclade in our samples, ranging from 65.1% to 83.1%. In contrast, the E1b1b1b1-M107 and E1b1b1b2a-M165 subclades were not found in our samples. Our results suggest a predominance of the E1b1b1b-M81 haplogroup among Moroccan Berber-speaking males with a decreasing gradient from south to north. The most prevalent subclade in this haplogroup was E1b1b1b2-M183, for which diffferences among these three groups were statistically significant between central and southern groups.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, all of this is nothing new. Guys on this forum have been saying that Berber and its associated lineage M81 is only 2,000 years old. Just do a search in the archives for 'age of Berber' and E-M81.

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
. Basal E-M81* arose around 14,000 years ago but basal M-81 is rare in the Maghreb

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Originally posted by Troll Patrol:

While the Berber sub-clade of E-M81 is relatively young. Likely this mutation of E-M81 deals with migration levels by these early pastoralists into different terrains. Map it and you'll see it correlates with the climatic changes.

See again:

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E1b1b1b (E-M81) is the most common Y chromosome haplogroup in the Maghreb,
dominated by its sub-clade E-M183. It is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 5,600 years ago (Cruciani et al. 2004, Arredi et al. (2004)).

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Originally posted by King Charlie Bass:
And old email reply from Underhill et al on M81, maybe this will help you Yom:


[i]Charles,


My best guess is that hg E-M81 originated sometiime within Holocene pre-history perhaps
8,000 years ago.

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Originally posted by Ish Gebor:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
North Africa E-M81

West Africa
E-M2
E-M132
L2b, L1b,
R-V88

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Is E-M81 North African, or Northwest African?

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The title is incoherent with what the history of Hg E-M81 shows. E-M78 is more suited and coherent.

”E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East;...”

In spite of a reduction in STR heterozygosity towards the West, which would point to an origin in the Near East, ancient DNA evidence together with our TMRCA estimates point to a local origin of E-M183 in NW Africa.”

~Comas D, Fadhlaoui-Zid K et al.
Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Again, all of this is nothing new. Guys on this forum have been saying that Berber and its associated lineage M81 is only 2,000 years old. Just do a search in the archives for 'age of Berber' and E-M81.

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see if you can find one with an estimate that young


.

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=009784;p=1

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
. Basal E-M81* arose around 14,000 years ago but basal M-81 is rare in the Maghreb

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Let me clarify. E-M81 is estimated to be 14,000 years old but its subclade E-183 is only 2,700 years old. It is the latter that correlates to Berber not the former.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Let me clarify. E-M81 is estimated to be 14,000 years old but its subclade E-183 is only 2,700 years old. It is the latter that correlates to Berber not the former.

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E-M183 is extremely dominant more than 99% within E-M81.

the article states (in the 3rd paragraph at top)

"The most likely scenario, as suggested by Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.17, is that the origin of E-M81 is more recent than previously reported."

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E1b1b1b2-M183 was the most dominant subclade in our samples, ranging from 65.1% to 83.1%.

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Studies based on the Y chromosome have highlighted E-M78 and E-M81 as the most frequent paternal lin- eages in North Africa, although they showed different distribution patterns. Whereas the frequency of E-M78 declines towards Northwest Africa, E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East

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~Comas D, Fadhlaoui-Zid K et al.
Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 


Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)


"The most likely scenario, as suggested by Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.17, is that the origin of E-M81 is more recent than previously reported."
______________________________________________

I'm not sure what the implications of this might be historically, if any are significant
 

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Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

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"E-M183 (E-M81) is the most frequent paternal lineage in North Africa and thus it must be considered to explore past historical and demographical processes. Here, by using whole Y chromosome sequences from 32 North African individuals, we have identified five new branches within E-M183. The validation of these variants in more than 200 North African…"

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~Neus Solé-Morata, Carla García-Fernández, Vadim Urasin, Asmahan Bekada, Karima Fadhlaoui-Zid, Pierre Zalloua, David Comas & Francesc Calafell
Whole Y-chromosome sequences reveal an extremely recent origin of the most common North African paternal lineage E-M183 (M81)Scientific Reports volume 7, Article number: 15941 (2017)







 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
[qb]

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Originally posted by Djehuti:
Let me clarify. E-M81 is estimated to be 14,000 years old but its subclade E-183 is only 2,700 years old. It is the latter that correlates to Berber not the former.

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E-M183 is extremely dominant more than 99% within E-M81.

the article states (in the 3rd paragraph at top)

"The most likely scenario, as suggested by Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.17, is that the origin of E-M81 is more recent than previously reported."

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Where does it say 99%?

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
wikipedia

Haplogroup E-M215 (Y-DNA)

E-M183 is extremely dominant (more than 99%[63]) within E-M81

__________________

[63]

https://yfull.com/tree/E-M81/

click "info" at the end of the E-M81 line for alleles

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The model of classification of the Berber languages prepared by George Starostin (2010) with the disintegration of Zenaga dated to 1480 BCE and disintegration of North, East and South subbranches dated to 1080 BCE is not compatible with thedistribution of Phoenician loans in
all subbranches. Their spread is thinkable only in the 1st mill. BCE.Militarev (1991, 154) localizesthe area, where the South Berber(Tuareg) subbranch formed, in the triangle Ghudāmis-Ghāt-Sabhah in West Libya. In this space the ancient city Garama also lay, the center of the people called Garamantes (Herodot IV, 183-84; Tacit, Historiae IV, 50) who are frequently identified with the ancestors of Tuaregs. Another argument connected with this area is the ethnonym Hawwārah, located by Ibn Khordadbeh ("Book of Roads and Kingdoms", 870 CE) and by al-MasCudi ("The Meadows of Gold and Mines of Gems", 956 CE) in Fezzan or Tripolitania. In agreement with the Berber historical phonetics, the name Ăhaggar of the North Tuaregs is derivable from Hawwārah. More difficult is the reconstruction of the route of the West Berbers represented by the Zenaga living along the Senegal-Mauritanian border now, but in a large part of West Mauritania till the 17th cent. The closest relative Tetserret/Tameseghlalt is spoken by a small, non-Tuareg, minority living among the Tuaregs of Niger (Souag 2010, 178). Other, substratal, traces of West Berber appear in the Arabic dialect Hassaniya, used in Mauritania, West Sahara and Algeria, and in the North Songhai dialects Tadaksahak (East Mali, West Niger), Tagdal (West/Central Niger), besides the South Tuareg influence, and Kwarandzyey (West Algeria), besides the Moroccan Berber influence. Souag (2010, 186) thinks about a movement of Kwarandzyey in the north from the basin of the Niger. In this case the route of the West Berbers probably preceded the spread of the Tuaregs into the southwest. Could the form zngn from the Libyan inscription from Girsa in Tripolitania be connected with the ethnonym Zenaga(Militarev 1994, 277-78)? In the 3rd and 2nd mill. BCE the linguistic traces of Berber related idioms appear in the Nile Valley. One witness is seen in c. 20 etymons in Nubian languages, all with good Berber etymologies (Blažek 2000). The Nubian lexemes are not limited to Nile Nubian but they are distributed in all Nubian branches. This means they would have been adoptedbefore the disintegration of Nubian, dated to the 11th cent. BCE (Starostin 2010). The contact zone could be localized around the mouth of Wadi al-Milk in the Nile in North Sudan (Behrens 1984, 208, map 7.5; Blažek 2000, 40). This is in agreement with the information of Herkhuef, a commercial emissary who visited Upper Nubia c. 2230 BCE, about the ruler of the district J3mfighting against the tribes Tmw by the fourth cataract. The Tmw are usually connected with antique Libyans and modern Berbers. From the area between the 2nd and 4th cataracts the Tmw are mentioned also in the time of Ramesses II (1290-1224 BCE) on the stele of his official Ramose who sought workers among Tmw(Behrens 1984, 137-39). The direct linguistic witness can be found in the name 3bjqwr of one of dogs of the nomarch Antef II from the 11th dynasty (2118-2069 BCE), exactly corresponding to proto-Tuareg *ābaykūr "wild dog" > Ghat abaikur, Ahaggar ăbăikôr, Ayr/Awlemmiden abăykor (Müller 1896, 207; Blažek 2000, 40). Interesting is also the ethnonym Jsbt, mentioned together with other Old Libyan tribes Rbwand Mšwš in the description of fights of RamessesIII c. 1180 BCE. Jsbt corresponds to ’Ασβύσται (Herodot IV, 170-71), ’Ασβῦται (Ptolemy IV, 4.10), localized to the east of the Gulf of Sidre, and Asebet, pl. Isebeten, one of the Berber tribes related to the Ahaggar Tuaregs (Behrens 1984, 145-46). These facts support the spread of proto-Berbers along the Mediterranean coast from the Nile Valley. The Tmw from Northern Sudan were probably assimilated by neighboring Nilo-Saharan populations

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Originally posted by Elmaestro:
@Doug
I believe you shot past M183 though. Most m183 carriers are on a branch that doesn't date past 1000bce. What you might be showing is evidence of what Berber speakers might've been like before the sweeping bottleneck of m183. The latter of which iirc can't be placed anywhere outside of the Maghreb (or Carthage?) for it's point of origin.

Also which phlyo do you think best represents whats going on with Berber? which language do you think they share their most common ancestor with?

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Barabra is an old ethnographical term for the Nubian peoples of northern Sudan and southern Egypt. The word is variously derived from Berberi (i.e. Berbers), or described as identical with Barabara, figuring in the inscription on a gateway of Tuthmosis I, as the name of one of the 113 tribes conquered by him.[1]

In a later inscription of Rameses II at Karnak (1300 BC), Beraberata is given as the name of a southern conquered people. Thus it is suggested that Barabra is a real ethnical name, confused later with Greek and Roman barbarus, and revived in its proper meaning subsequent to the Muslim conquest. A tribe living on the banks of the Nile between Wadi Halfa and Assuan are called Barabra.[1]

The term is now rejected by Nubians, as it is understood as a pejorative term used as an insult in reference to skin colour, low intellect and brutishness.[2]

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Also the Phoencieans themselves who were grouped in with the "darker Syrians" and not the pale ones. Forgot the term used but gonna look it up. But more importantly if Berbers are descended from them then why do we not see any Ancient Middle Eastern specific male ancestry among them?

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Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
Also the Phoencieans themselves who were grouped in with the "darker Syrians" and not the pale ones. Forgot the term used but gonna look it up. But more importantly if Berbers are descended from them then why do we not see any Ancient Middle Eastern specific male ancestry among them?

Edit:

I'm also starting to believe that Berbers are the youngest language of AA.

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by Askia_The_Great:
Also the Phoencieans themselves who were grouped in with the "darker Syrians" and not the pale ones. Forgot the term used but gonna look it up. But more importantly if Berbers are descended from them then why do we not see any Ancient Middle Eastern specific male ancestry among them?

Edit:

I'm also starting to believe that Berbers are the youngest language of AA.

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That's interesting. And as we know, a bulk of modern day Syrians is of East European (Mamluk) and Ottoman-Turkish descent.


https://www.historytoday.com/miscellanies/who-were-mamluks

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Analysis of uniparental markers have found two Y-chromosome lineages (E1b1b1a-M78 and E1b1b1b-M81) at high frequency in North African populations, although the origin and emergence of these lineages have been controversial, with some studies suggesting a Paleolithic component [28], while other studies pointing to a Neolithic origin [29–33]. E1b1b1a-M78 has probably emerged in Northeastern Africa [31] and is today widely distributed in North Africa, East Africa, and West Asia.

E1b1b1b- M81 show high frequencies in Northwestern Africa and a high prevalence among Berbers.

"In particular, the Tuareg have 50% to 80% of their paternal lineages E1b1b1b-M81 [34], [35]. The Tuareg are seminomadic pastoralist groups that are mostly spread between Libya, Algeria, Mali, and Niger. They speak a Berber language and are believed to be the descendants of the Garamantes people of Fezzan, Libya (500 BC - 700 CE) [34]."

Results

Paternal lineage composition in North African populations

The paternal lineage distribution in North African populations was compared to neighboring European and Levantine groups (Figure 1A) using 302 new North African samples from Libya and Morocco (Figure S2, Table S4). As previously reported [28– 30,39], the two specific North African haplogroups, E1b1b1a-M78 and E1b1b1b-M81, are predominant in North African populations.

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Recently, ancient DNA studies have supported prehistoric migrations from North Africa into the Iberian Peninsula since around 4000 ya ( years ago) [16 – 18]. Moreover, mtDNA, Y-chromosome and short tandem repeat studies [4,19 – 22], as well as genome-wide and ancient DNA analyses [3,17,23], have also shown gene-flow in historical times. Moorjani et al. [23] dated African gene-flow into southern Europe around 55 generations ago, with the highest pro- portions in Iberia: 3.2+0.3% in Portugal, and 2.4+0.3% in Spain, which was related to a demographic impact either in Roman or Arab periods. Botigue ́et al.

Botigue ́ et al. [3] showed that the inclusion of North African populations in their analyses increased those estimated percentages of gene-flow, suggesting a higher North African gene-flow in Iberia, and that the sub-Saharan gene-flow detected entered with the North African wave, challenging the interpretation of a direct sub-Saharan influence in southern Europe. Additionally, the North African gene-flow in the Iberian Peninsula was dated to 6 – 10 generations ago, although previous gene-flow was not discarded. In a large study of human populations admixture, Hellenthal et al. [24] described a complex scenario with continuous gene-flow during the past 2000 years in Iberia with North and sub-Saharan Africans. In sum, although all studies agree on the genetic influence of North Africa in Iberia, there is no clear consensus in the pattern of gene-flow and the estimated dates of the North African admixture.

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Recently, ancient DNA studies have supported prehistoric migrations from North Africa into the Iberian Peninsula since around 4000 ya ( years ago) [16 – 18]. Moreover, mtDNA, Y-chromosome and short tandem repeat studies [4,19 – 22], as well as genome-wide and ancient DNA analyses [3,17,23], have also shown gene-flow in historical times. Moorjani et al. [23] dated African gene-flow into southern Europe around 55 generations ago, with the highest pro- portions in Iberia: 3.2+0.3% in Portugal, and 2.4+0.3% in Spain, which was related to a demographic impact either in Roman or Arab periods. Botigue ́ et al.

Botigue ́ et al. [3] showed that the inclusion of North African populations in their analyses increased those estimated percentages of gene-flow, suggesting a higher North African gene-flow in Iberia, and that the sub-Saharan gene-flow detected entered with the North African wave, challenging the interpretation of a direct sub-Saharan influence in southern Europe. Addition- ally, the North African gene-flow in the Iberian Peninsula was dated to 6 – 10 generations ago, although previous gene-flow was not discarded. In a large study of human populations admixture, Hellenthal et al. [24] described a com- plex scenario with continuous gene-flow during the past 2000 years in Iberia with North and sub-Saharan Africans. In sum, although all studies agree on the genetic influence of North Africa in Iberia, there is no clear consensus in the pattern of gene-flow and the estimated dates of the North African admixture.

---

~Arauna LR, Hellenthal G, Comas D. 2019 Dissecting human North African gene-flow into its western coastal surroundings. Proc. R. Soc. B 286: 20190471. http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2019.0471

---

quote:

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Previous genetic studies have reported signals of admixture from sub-Saharan Africa and/or north Africa into Iberia at some point in the past23–27. However, estimates of the timing of this admixture vary greatly, from as long as 74 generations ago (~100 BC)23 to 23 generations ago (~1330 CE)25. Estimates of overall mean pro- portions of African-like DNA in the Iberian Peninsula also vary, ranging from 2.424 to 10.6%11. Differences within Iberia have also been reported11,26, based on comparisons between sampled regions, with higher fractions observed in western regions of Iberia (e.g. 21.7% in Northwest Castile11) and lower fractions in the north-east (e.g. 2.3% in Cataluña11). Estimates of the timing and extent of admixture tend to vary depending on the reference populations assumed to represent the ancestral mixing groups (e.g. Moroccan11 or Saharawi26), as well as heterogeneity in the ancestral make-up of the modern-day Iberian samples used in the analysis.

[…]

Notably, only the coancestry curves involving a sub-Saharan African surrogate group fit better to a two-date admixture event. The improved fit for the curve for the sub-Saharan African surrogate group ‘Nigeria.YRI1’ is visually apparent in the coancestry curve shown in Supplementary Figure 7. We therefore consider the one-date admixture event to be a better fit overall, but that there is some evidence for a second event involving sub-Saharan African-like DNA mixing with European-like DNA, with the strongest evidence for this in the Iberian cluster, ‘Portugal-Andalucia’. In the target groups where there is evidence of this, GLOBETROTTER infers dates in the range 1370–1700 CE (assuming a 28-year generation time).

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
Why did you post this quote in particular ?

---

quote:

---

The Canary Islands, located in the Atlantic coast of North Africa, have been inhabited since approximately 1000 BCE [5,6]. The islands were known by the Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans; however, it is thought that there was no contact with the autochthonous settlers of the islands since the fourth century until the Castilian conquest in the fifteenth century [7]. By the time of this European conquest of the Islands, the aboriginal population size has been estimated around 100 000 individuals [8]. A northwest African origin of the first settlers of the islands is consistent with patterns of uniparental and classical genetic markers in modern and ancient samples [9,10]. In particular, the presence of haplogroups in the Canary Islands that are only found in individuals of North African descent, such as mitochondrial (mtDNA) haplogroup U6 [11] and Y-chromosome haplogroup M81 [12], among some others considered founder lineages, support the North African origin of the islanders. The frequencies of these haplogroups in the extant population of the Canary Islands show a clear sexual bias: the percentage of the maternal North African component estimated through the analysis of mtDNA lineages is high, between 42 and 74% [10]; while the paternal component analysed through the study of Y-chromosome lineages is lower, between 5 and 16% [9].

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
Why did you post this quote in particular ?

---

Because of the particular timeframe. And relation to neighboring populations.

quote:

---

The Canary Islands, located in the Atlantic coast of North Africa, have been inhabited since approximately 1000 BCE [5,6]. The islands were known by the Phoenicians, Greeks and Romans; however, it is thought that there was no contact with the autochthonous settlers of the islands since the fourth century until the Castilian conquest in the fifteenth century [7]. By the time of this European conquest of the Islands, the aboriginal population size has been estimated around 100 000 individuals [8]. A northwest African origin of the first settlers of the islands is consistent with patterns of uniparental and classical genetic markers in modern and ancient samples [9,10]. In particular, the presence of haplogroups in the Canary Islands that are only found in individuals of North African descent, such as mitochondrial (mtDNA) haplogroup U6 [11] and Y-chromosome haplogroup M81 [12], among some others considered founder lineages, support the North African origin of the islanders. The frequencies of these haplogroups in the extant population of the Canary Islands show a clear sexual bias: the percentage of the maternal North African component estimated through the analysis of mtDNA lineages is high, between 42 and 74% [10]; while the paternal component analysed through the study of Y-chromosome lineages is lower, between 5 and 16% [9].

---

~Arauna LR, Hellenthal G, Comas D. 2019 Dissecting human North African gene-flow into its western coastal surroundings. Proc. R. Soc. B 286: 20190471. http://dx.doi.org/10.1098/rspb.2019.0471

---

"In summary, by generating the first genome-wide sequence data from several individuals of the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands, the Guanches, we confirm the long-held hypothesis that they were genetically most similar to modern Berber populations from Northwest Africa [1, 4, 9]. "

"These results are similar for the other individuals where SNP information is available, albeit with lower coverage, suggesting that—at least for this sample of Guanches—the dominating phenotype was lactose intolerant, dark hair, light or medium skin color, and brown eyes (Table S4)."

Genomic Analyses of Pre-European Conquest Human Remains from the Canary Islands Reveal Close Affinity to Modern North Africans, Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela,Torsten Günther,Maja Krzewińska, Mattias Jakobsson, Anders Götherström, Linus Girdland-Flink, 2017
 

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Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 
To put it in contrast, so we all have a better understanding.



http://factsanddetails.com/world/cat55/sub394/entry-5932.html




http://www.yaden-africa.com/the-culture/tribes/berber
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
"In summary, by generating the first genome-wide sequence data from several individuals of the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands, the Guanches, we confirm the long-held hypothesis that they were genetically most similar to modern Berber populations from Northwest Africa [1, 4, 9]. "

"These results are similar for the other individuals where SNP information is available, albeit with lower coverage, suggesting that—at least for this sample of Guanches—the dominating phenotype was lactose intolerant, dark hair, light or medium skin color, and brown eyes (Table S4)."

Genomic Analyses of Pre-European Conquest Human Remains from the Canary Islands Reveal Close Affinity to Modern North Africans, Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela,Torsten Günther,Maja Krzewińska, Mattias Jakobsson, Anders Götherström, Linus Girdland-Flink, 2017

---

quote:

---

Formation of the Berber branch - Cheikh Anta Diop

The prehistoric period

The Berbers living in North Africa and the Sahara today are largely descended from the peoples who attempted to invade Egypt c. 1200, and who are referred to in Egyptian texts under the generic term 'peoples from the sea'.

They are not directly descended from a Palaeo-African Ibero-Maurusian stock, as was long believed. In fact, the Ibero-Maurusian culture belongs to the final Palaeolithic and the Epipalaeolithic. This culture extended at most from 10,000 to 6000, thus leaving a gap of 5,000 years to be filled between the final phase and the arrival in Africa of the sea peoples. In fact, the Mechta el-Arbi people, who embodied this culture, not only varied considerably in physical type but became extinct some 10,000 years ago. They have no demon¬ strable connection with the Guanches of the Canary Islands, with whom they are sometimes compared. The latter, exterminated by the Spaniards in the sixteenth century, were protohistoric peoples who were permeated to some extent by Punic influence and who practised mummification. According to some current research trends, the Ibero-Maurusian would even appear to have come from the south, from the Sudan region or from Kenya.

The historical period

The chronological frame of reference here is provided by Egypt, for until the fifth century before our era the people in question were still at the stage of being subjects for ethnographic study, as shown by the observations of Herodotus in his Book II, Euterpe."

The end of Ramses H's reign and the beginning of that of Merneptah coincided with the first great invasions of the peoples from the north, who were to transform the ethnic physiognomy of the whole of western Asia. Egypt owed its salvation to its technical superiority alone.

These same peoples were dislodged from their respective territories (southern Europe and Asia Minor) by the sudden thrust of the Dorians.

For example, in about 1230, led by the Libyan chieftain Meryey, a coalition of Achaeans, Sicels (Sicily), Shardanes (Sardinia), Lycians and Etruscans set out to attack Egypt west of the delta.

They were defeated by Merneptah after a battle that lasted six hours. Meryey fled, abandoning his weapons, his treasure and his harem. On the battlefield the number of slain included 6,359 Libyans, 222 Sicels, 742 Etruscans and thousands of Shardanes and Achaeans.

More than 9,000 swords and coats of arms were seized and considerable spoils. Merneptah had a hymn of victory engraved in his funerary temple in Thebes, describing the consternation of his enemies.

On the battlefield the number of slain included 6,359 Libyans, 222 Sicels, 742 Etruscans and thousands of Shardanes and Achaeans.

Sethnakht founded the XXth dynasty (1200), and after two years' reign was obliged to give way to his son Ramses III, who was immediately confronted with another coalition of the sea peoples, this time attacking by land and by sea.

In the new coalition there were Philistines, and again some Sicels, Shagalasha, Danaeans and Washasha.

It was the largest coalition of peoples in ancient times. It pitched camp in the country of Amurra in the north of Syria. As fate would have it, the Hittite nation was annihilated during this second invasion.

The town of Ugarit in the north of Syria was destroyed. Cyprus, Carchemish and Arvad were occupied and turned into bases for the invasion of Egypt by land and sea.

However, the Egyptian army with its superior organization won a two¬ fold victory over the coalition, both on land and at sea. The coalition's fleet was completely destroyed in the mouths of the Nile and the invaders' overland route to the delta was cut off.

Simultaneously, however, a third coalition was being formed in Libya against Egypt for the second time. It was immediately annihilated by Ramses III. He had previously tried to set up as chief of the Libyan community one of its young princes, who had been raised at the Egyptian court as a hostage, in accordance with the policy followed by Egypt from the XVIIIth Dynasty onwards, which was to assimilate the future heads of vassal states. After this third victory, Ramses III took an exceptional number of prisoners.

Ramses III fought a defensive war in Phoenicia, which was then an integral part of the Egyptian Empire. He commanded the Egyptian fleet in person and defeated the fourth coalition of the sea peoples. The entire fleet of the Philistines was sunk, so that they could not take to sea again. A whole people, the Philistines, was thus taken captive and settled by Ramses III in Palestine, or 'Palestiou' as it was called in the Egyptian texts, being named after that defeat.

Meanwhile, the Libyans in the western region of the delta were building up the third Libyan coalition, which was to be the fifth against Ramses III. They were defeated by him in 1188, before Memphis. Henceforward, the Libyans were never again to rise against Egypt. They infiltrated Egypt peace¬ fully, and even served in the army as an auxiliary corps.

The Berbers are the direct descendants of these ancient Libyans, or sea peoples, who arrived in Africa in about 1200. They took 750 years to spread from the west of the Nile delta as far as the Atlantic Ocean.

In 450, when Herodotus visited Egypt under Persian domination, the Libyans were still at the stage of organization in nomadic tribes, as studied by ethnographers. According to Herodotus, they were scattered around Lake Triton in Cyrenaica and had spread as far as the suburbs of Carthage. A traveller from Egypt to the Atlantic Ocean would have come across them in the following order:

First the Adyrmachidae: their manners and customs were influenced by prolonged contact with Egypt. Then there were the Giligames, who occupied territory extending as far as the Island of Aphrodite. After them were the Asbytes, who lived above Cyrene, in the hinterland, separated from the sea by the Cyrenians. They travelled in chariots drawn by four horses. Next came the Auschises, who lived above Barka and owned a fraction of the coast in the vicinity of the Hesperides.

The Bakales were located in the middle of their territory. Then there were the Nasamonians, whose custom it was for men to have several wives. However, they shared their wives, much as the Massagetae men did. According to Herodotus, a group of young Nasamonians succeeded in crossing the Sahara obliquely, towards the Niger bend perhaps. At all events, the members of the expedition are said to have arrived in Africa south of the Sahara, on the banks of a river inhabited by population were pygmies or similar to pygmies.

After the Nasamonians, our traveller would have encountered the Psylls, who were annihilated in mysterious circumstances, according to Herodotus perhaps as a result of some natural phenomenon such as a sand¬ storm. Beyond the Nasamonians, further south, he would have encountered the Gamphasants or Garamantes, 'who flee all men and all society, possess ho weapons and do not know how to defend themselves'.

Let it be said in passing that this account by a contemporary historian is hard to reconcile with the idea of a warlike people imposing Mediterranean civilization as they travelled southwards.

Then there were the Macae, settled along the coast, and, after them, the Gindanes, who lived near the Lotophagi, followed by the Machlyes, whose settlements extended as far as the River Triton, flowing into Lake Triton. Herodotus also mentions the Auses, to whom marriage was unknown: the men shared the women.1

Such were the different tribes in ancient times that were gradually to organize themselves into kingdoms throughout northern Africa: (a) the kingdom of Mauretania in the north-west corner of the continent, after the conquest of the Gaetulians; and (b) the kingdom of Numidia, which flourished in the time of Massimissa and which stopped at Tripoli, and eastern Libya, in which the Greek colony of Cyrene lived in an enclave, founded in the seventh century ( 630) by the inhabitants of Thera Island in the Cyclades, following a long drought that led to a food shortage.

Four other colonies were added to this one to form what was called the 'pentapolis', or five cities.

On the west coast, the Phoenician colonies of the Tyre period apparently date back to the twelfth century before our era, following the Dorian invasions which caused disruption in the whole eastern basin of the Mediterranean.

The earliest stratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara, as is being confirmed by archaeology. This region was referred to as Tehenu or Libu in Pharaonic texts. These two roots are evident in present-day Senegalese languages such as Wolof. The population of Cape Verde, that is, of the Dakar region, still forms the Libu ethnic group, which includes the Libu subgroup: khonkh bop, or white Libu, an expression that refers back to the period preceding the Libu migration.

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
"In summary, by generating the first genome-wide sequence data from several individuals of the aboriginal population of the Canary Islands, the Guanches, we confirm the long-held hypothesis that they were genetically most similar to modern Berber populations from Northwest Africa [1, 4, 9]. "

"These results are similar for the other individuals where SNP information is available, albeit with lower coverage, suggesting that—at least for this sample of Guanches—the dominating phenotype was lactose intolerant, dark hair, light or medium skin color, and brown eyes (Table S4)."

Genomic Analyses of Pre-European Conquest Human Remains from the Canary Islands Reveal Close Affinity to Modern North Africans, Ricardo Rodríguez-Varela,Torsten Günther,Maja Krzewińska, Mattias Jakobsson, Anders Götherström, Linus Girdland-Flink, 2017

---

Disclaimer.

Some old source, Published in 1986 by the United Nations Educational, Scientific and Cultural Organization:

quote:

---

Formation of the Berber branch - Cheikh Anta Diop

The prehistoric period

The Berbers living in North Africa and the Sahara today are largely descended from the peoples who attempted to invade Egypt c. 1200, and who are referred to in Egyptian texts under the generic term 'peoples from the sea'.

They are not directly descended from a Palaeo-African Ibero-Maurusian stock, as was long believed. In fact, the Ibero-Maurusian culture belongs to the final Palaeolithic and the Epipalaeolithic. This culture extended at most from 10,000 to 6000, thus leaving a gap of 5,000 years to be filled between the final phase and the arrival in Africa of the sea peoples. In fact, the Mechta el-Arbi people, who embodied this culture, not only varied considerably in physical type but became extinct some 10,000 years ago. They have no demon¬ strable connection with the Guanches of the Canary Islands, with whom they are sometimes compared. The latter, exterminated by the Spaniards in the sixteenth century, were protohistoric peoples who were permeated to some extent by Punic influence and who practised mummification. According to some current research trends, the Ibero-Maurusian would even appear to have come from the south, from the Sudan region or from Kenya.

The historical period

The chronological frame of reference here is provided by Egypt, for until the fifth century before our era the people in question were still at the stage of being subjects for ethnographic study, as shown by the observations of Herodotus in his Book II, Euterpe."

The end of Ramses H's reign and the beginning of that of Merneptah coincided with the first great invasions of the peoples from the north, who were to transform the ethnic physiognomy of the whole of western Asia. Egypt owed its salvation to its technical superiority alone.

These same peoples were dislodged from their respective territories (southern Europe and Asia Minor) by the sudden thrust of the Dorians.

For example, in about 1230, led by the Libyan chieftain Meryey, a coalition of Achaeans, Sicels (Sicily), Shardanes (Sardinia), Lycians and Etruscans set out to attack Egypt west of the delta.

They were defeated by Merneptah after a battle that lasted six hours. Meryey fled, abandoning his weapons, his treasure and his harem. On the battlefield the number of slain included 6,359 Libyans, 222 Sicels, 742 Etruscans and thousands of Shardanes and Achaeans.

More than 9,000 swords and coats of arms were seized and considerable spoils. Merneptah had a hymn of victory engraved in his funerary temple in Thebes, describing the consternation of his enemies.

On the battlefield the number of slain included 6,359 Libyans, 222 Sicels, 742 Etruscans and thousands of Shardanes and Achaeans.

Sethnakht founded the XXth dynasty (1200), and after two years' reign was obliged to give way to his son Ramses III, who was immediately confronted with another coalition of the sea peoples, this time attacking by land and by sea.

In the new coalition there were Philistines, and again some Sicels, Shagalasha, Danaeans and Washasha.

It was the largest coalition of peoples in ancient times. It pitched camp in the country of Amurra in the north of Syria. As fate would have it, the Hittite nation was annihilated during this second invasion.

The town of Ugarit in the north of Syria was destroyed. Cyprus, Carchemish and Arvad were occupied and turned into bases for the invasion of Egypt by land and sea.

However, the Egyptian army with its superior organization won a two¬ fold victory over the coalition, both on land and at sea. The coalition's fleet was completely destroyed in the mouths of the Nile and the invaders' overland route to the delta was cut off.

Simultaneously, however, a third coalition was being formed in Libya against Egypt for the second time. It was immediately annihilated by Ramses III. He had previously tried to set up as chief of the Libyan community one of its young princes, who had been raised at the Egyptian court as a hostage, in accordance with the policy followed by Egypt from the XVIIIth Dynasty onwards, which was to assimilate the future heads of vassal states. After this third victory, Ramses III took an exceptional number of prisoners.

Ramses III fought a defensive war in Phoenicia, which was then an integral part of the Egyptian Empire. He commanded the Egyptian fleet in person and defeated the fourth coalition of the sea peoples. The entire fleet of the Philistines was sunk, so that they could not take to sea again. A whole people, the Philistines, was thus taken captive and settled by Ramses III in Palestine, or 'Palestiou' as it was called in the Egyptian texts, being named after that defeat.

Meanwhile, the Libyans in the western region of the delta were building up the third Libyan coalition, which was to be the fifth against Ramses III. They were defeated by him in 1188, before Memphis. Henceforward, the Libyans were never again to rise against Egypt. They infiltrated Egypt peace¬ fully, and even served in the army as an auxiliary corps.

The Berbers are the direct descendants of these ancient Libyans, or sea peoples, who arrived in Africa in about 1200. They took 750 years to spread from the west of the Nile delta as far as the Atlantic Ocean.

In 450, when Herodotus visited Egypt under Persian domination, the Libyans were still at the stage of organization in nomadic tribes, as studied by ethnographers. According to Herodotus, they were scattered around Lake Triton in Cyrenaica and had spread as far as the suburbs of Carthage. A traveller from Egypt to the Atlantic Ocean would have come across them in the following order:

First the Adyrmachidae: their manners and customs were influenced by prolonged contact with Egypt. Then there were the Giligames, who occupied territory extending as far as the Island of Aphrodite. After them were the Asbytes, who lived above Cyrene, in the hinterland, separated from the sea by the Cyrenians. They travelled in chariots drawn by four horses. Next came the Auschises, who lived above Barka and owned a fraction of the coast in the vicinity of the Hesperides.

The Bakales were located in the middle of their territory. Then there were the Nasamonians, whose custom it was for men to have several wives. However, they shared their wives, much as the Massagetae men did. According to Herodotus, a group of young Nasamonians succeeded in crossing the Sahara obliquely, towards the Niger bend perhaps. At all events, the members of the expedition are said to have arrived in Africa south of the Sahara, on the banks of a river inhabited by population were pygmies or similar to pygmies.

After the Nasamonians, our traveller would have encountered the Psylls, who were annihilated in mysterious circumstances, according to Herodotus perhaps as a result of some natural phenomenon such as a sand¬ storm. Beyond the Nasamonians, further south, he would have encountered the Gamphasants or Garamantes, 'who flee all men and all society, possess ho weapons and do not know how to defend themselves'.

Let it be said in passing that this account by a contemporary historian is hard to reconcile with the idea of a warlike people imposing Mediterranean civilization as they travelled southwards.

Then there were the Macae, settled along the coast, and, after them, the Gindanes, who lived near the Lotophagi, followed by the Machlyes, whose settlements extended as far as the River Triton, flowing into Lake Triton. Herodotus also mentions the Auses, to whom marriage was unknown: the men shared the women.1

Such were the different tribes in ancient times that were gradually to organize themselves into kingdoms throughout northern Africa: (a) the kingdom of Mauretania in the north-west corner of the continent, after the conquest of the Gaetulians; and (b) the kingdom of Numidia, which flourished in the time of Massimissa and which stopped at Tripoli, and eastern Libya, in which the Greek colony of Cyrene lived in an enclave, founded in the seventh century ( 630) by the inhabitants of Thera Island in the Cyclades, following a long drought that led to a food shortage.

Four other colonies were added to this one to form what was called the 'pentapolis', or five cities.

On the west coast, the Phoenician colonies of the Tyre period apparently date back to the twelfth century before our era, following the Dorian invasions which caused disruption in the whole eastern basin of the Mediterranean.

The earliest stratum of the Libyan population was a black population from the south Sahara, as is being confirmed by archaeology. This region was referred to as Tehenu or Libu in Pharaonic texts. These two roots are evident in present-day Senegalese languages such as Wolof. The population of Cape Verde, that is, of the Dakar region, still forms the Libu ethnic group, which includes the Libu subgroup: khonkh bop, or white Libu, an expression that refers back to the period preceding the Libu migration.

---

~Cheikh Anta Diop, Formation of the Berber branch, Libya antiqua, p. 69-73.
https://unesdoc.unesco.org/ark:/48223/pf0000070516

---

so for you a source from 1986 is more accurate than a genetic study made in 2017 ? Cheikh anta diop never made a genetic study and he never went in north africa...meanwhile his theory of sea people being the ancestors of modern berbers doesn't make sense because we have their dna and it's completely different : https://www.newsweek.com/biblical-philistines-sea-peoples-dna-1447114

Genetic studies on guanches show that they were similar to modern north africans.
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

---

Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene ... - NCBIwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pubmed
Mar 17, 2010 - The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan.
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Beja are an ancient Nile Valley population. They are not related to the Berbers.

The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. They originated in the West, not Eastern Africa. There was no East West Migration of Berber people
The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html
).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.

Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) an important oasis of the Morocco
)

---

It depends on what Berbers you are talking about. Perhaps you can let some light shine on this matter?

The Siwa have been living in that region for thousands upon thousands if years.

The Tuareg always have been in he Fezzan.









 

---

Posted by Askia_the_small (Member # 23214) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

---

Originally posted by Clyde Winters:
The Beja are an ancient Nile Valley population. They are not related to the Berbers.

The contemporary Berbers or Amazigh are all in the West. They originated in the West, not Eastern Africa. There was no East West Migration of Berber people
The Berbers in Siwa are not native to the area. These Berbers are Amazigh and came to Siwa to settle the region due to a drought. Once they found the Siwa Oasis they returned to Algeria and Morocco to invite other Amazigh to settle the area. (See: http://www.siwaoasis.com/siwa_his.html
).The Berbers did not originate in the Sudan and Egypt. Berbers came from NorthWest Africa.

Tuareg and Berbers were not Northeast African people The Tuareg did not come from the Fezzan, they originated in the West. According to Tuareg tradition they originated in the Tafilalt or Tafilet (Arabic: تافيلالت‎) an important oasis of the Morocco
)

---

It depends on what Berbers you are talking about. Perhaps you can let some light shine on this matter?

The Siwa have been living in that region for thousands upon thousands if years.

The Tuareg always have been in he Fezzan.

---

Siwa Berbers are not Berbers at least genetically but mostly of Sub Saharan and Chadic origins :



Probably due to the trans-saharan slave trade Ottomans made it an important slave market
 

---

Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

---

Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
Siwa Berbers are not Berbers at least genetically but mostly of Sub Saharan and Chadic origins :



Probably due to the trans-saharan slave trade Ottomans made it an important slave market

---

Not all of the Berber are M81 carriers, unlike what you tend to think. The Siwa have been there long before any Ottoman reached Egypt. There are Berbers with Chadic origin. It's all a bit more complicated.



Fig. 1. A. Map showing the location of the North African populations used in the present study. Boxes with numbers show the limits between sections used to divide the region. Populations are: 1 Moroccan Arab (MAR); 2 Moroccan Berber (MBE); 3 Figuig Berber (FIG); 4 Asni Berber (ASN); 5 Bouhria Berber (BOU); 6 Souss (SOU); 7 West Saharan (WSH); 8 Saharawi (SAH); 9 Maurita- nian (MAU); 10 Algerian (ALG); 11 Mozabites (MZA); 12 Western Tuareg (WTUA); 13 Tunisian Urban (TUN_URB); 14 Matmata Berber (TMA); 15 Sened Berber (TSE); 16 Chenini-Douriet Berber; 17 Kesra Berber (KES); 18 Zriba Arab (ZRI); 19 Skira Berber (SKI); 20 Tunisian Andalusian (TUN_AND); 21 (DJE) Djerba; 22 Eastern Tuareg (ETUA); 23 Egyptian (EGY); 24 Upper Egypt (UPE); 25 Gurna (GUR); 26 Siwa (SIW); 27 Northern Nubian (NNUB); 28 Southern Nubian (SNUB); 33 Libya (LIB). B. Series of AMOVA results between and within groups including North African populations. Sample locations are represented in the map by dots. Five transects have been defined by the numbered white lines. Each analysis is represented by a raw in the bottom of the Figure. When two groups are defined, the split is located in one of the barriers limiting two sections, and populations laying on the left represent the Western group and populations on the right represented the Eastern group. Percentage of variation between groups and within groups is shown at the left and right sides of the figure respectively. * Level of significance below 5%; ** Level of significance below 1%.



 

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Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
 
Berber is a language group not a genetic lineage or ethnic group. Few linguists associate Berber languages with Europe or the Levant, which means that the "berbers" did not from Europe or the Levant. The common view in linguistics is that Berber languages are a branch of Afroasiatic and therefore descend from other groups of Afroasiatic speakers upwards of 2 - 3,0000 years ago. Likely deriving from populations in the Sahara and along the Nile between Upper Egypt and Sudan going back to the Mid to Late Dynastic era nomadic groups identified in Egyptian references.

The Sea People did not come from Phoenicia. They came from Europe and north Eastern parts of the Mediterranean and invaded Syria. Hence they were not Syrian people. The Phoenicians were group of Syrian peoples who colonized much of the Mediterranean and they were not "Sea Peoples". It is these later Phoenicians who are said to have colonized parts of North Africa and had some influence on the development of culture and possibly writing and language in North Africa. But those are not "Sea Peoples".

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The Sea Peoples are a purported seafaring confederation that attacked ancient Egypt and other regions of the East Mediterranean prior to and during the Late Bronze Age collapse (1200–900 BCE).[1][2] Following the creation of the concept in the nineteenth century, it became one of the most famous chapters of Egyptian history, given its connection with, in the words of Wilhelm Max Müller: "the most important questions of ethnography and the primitive history of classic nations".[3][4] Their origins undocumented, the various Sea Peoples have been proposed to have originated from places that include western Asia Minor, the Aegean, the Mediterranean islands and Southern Europe.[5] Although the archaeological inscriptions do not include reference to a migration,[2] the Sea Peoples are conjectured to have sailed around the eastern Mediterranean and invaded Anatolia, Syria, Phoenicia, Canaan, Cyprus and Egypt toward the end of the Bronze Age.[6]

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While the Phoenician motherland was enduring a succession of foreign invasions, its settlement of Carthage was flourishing in northwest Africa, eventually becoming the only major continuation of Phoenician civilization and culture. Founded in the ninth century BCE as a colony of Tyre, Carthage became an independent city state around 650 BCE and soon rose to become a major power, exercising political hegemony over other Phoenician settlements throughout the western Mediterranean.

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Barbara, also referred to as Barbaria, referred to two ancient regions in littoral Northeast Africa. The two areas were inhabited by the Eastern Barbaroi or Baribah ("Berbers" or Barbarians) as referred to by ancient Greek philosophers. These inhabitants were the ancestors of today's local Afroasiatic-speaking populations such as Sudanese , Somalis and Bejas. However it has come to the surface, according to hieroglyphics that this name Barbaria could have an older origin with the Ancient Egyptian

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All major sub-branches of E-M35 are thought to have originated in the same general area as the parent clade: in North Africa, the Horn of Africa, or nearby areas of the Near East. Some branches of E-M35 are assumed to have left Africa thousands of years ago, whereas others may have arrived from the Near East. For example, Underhill (2002) associates the spread of the haplogroup with the Neolithic Revolution, believing that the structure and regional pattern of E-M35 subclades potentially give "reagents with which to infer specific episodes of population histories associated with the Neolithic agricultural expansion". Battaglia et al. (2007) also estimate that E-M78 (called E1b1b1a1 in that paper) has been in Europe longer than 10,000 years. Accordingly, human remains excavated in a Spanish funeral cave dating from approximately 7,000 years ago were shown to be in this haplogroup.[11] Two more E-M78 have been found in the Neolithic Sopot and Lengyel cultures too.[12]

Concerning E-M35 in Europe within this scheme, Underhill & Kivisild (2007) have remarked that E-M215 seems to represent a late-Pleistocene migration from North Africa to Europe over the Sinai Peninsula in Egypt.[Note 2] While this proposal remains uncontested, it has more recently been proposed by Trombetta et al. (2011) that there is also evidence for additional migration of E-M215 carrying men directly from North Africa to southwestern Europe, via a maritime route (see below.)

According to Lazaridis et al. (2016), Natufian skeletal remains from the ancient Levant predominantly carried the Y-DNA haplogroup E1b1b. Of the five Natufian specimens analysed for paternal lineages, three belonged to the E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a,E1b1b1b2b), E1b1(xE1b1a1,E1b1b1b1) and E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a,E1b1b1b2b) subclades (60%). Haplogroup E1b1b was also found at moderate frequencies among fossils from the ensuing Pre-Pottery Neolithic B culture, with the E1b1b1 and E1b1b1b2(xE1b1b1b2a,E1b1b1b2b) subclades observed in two of seven PPNB specimens (~29%). The scientists suggest that the Levantine early farmers may have spread southward into East Africa, bringing along Western Eurasian and Basal Eurasian ancestral components separate from that which would arrive later in North Africa.

Additionally, haplogroup E1b1b1 has been found in an ancient Egyptian mummy excavated at the Abusir el-Meleq archaeological site in Middle Egypt, which dates from a period between the late New Kingdom and the Roman era.[13] Fossils at the Iberomaurusian site of Ifri n'Amr or Moussa in Morocco, which have been dated to around 5,000 BCE, also carried haplotypes related to the E1b1b1b1a (E-M81) subclade. These ancient individuals bore an autochthonous Maghrebi genomic component that peaks among modern North Africans, indicating that they were ancestral to populations in the area.[14] The E1b1b haplogroup has likewise been observed in ancient Guanche fossils excavated in Gran Canaria and Tenerife on the Canary Islands, which have been radiocarbon-dated to between the 7th and 11th centuries CE. The clade-bearing individuals that were analysed for paternal DNA were inhumed at the Tenerife site, with all of these specimens found to belong to the E1b1b1b1a1 or E-M183 subclade (3/3; 100%).[15]

Loosdrecht et al. (2018) analysed genome-wide data from seven ancient Iberomaurusian individuals from the Grotte des Pigeons near Taforalt in eastern Morocco. The fossils were directly dated to between 15,100 and 13,900 calibrated years before present. The scientists found that five male specimens with sufficient nuclear DNA preservation belonged to the E1b1b1a1 (M78) subclade, with one skeleton bearing the E1b1b1a1b1 parent lineage to E-V13, another male specimen belonged to E1b1b (M215*).[16]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Berber is a language group not a genetic lineage or ethnic group.

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Berber is a language group not a genetic lineage or ethnic group.

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Bruh, you're take it too literally. For the sake of the argument the word Berber is being used as in reference to a group composition with a similar history. Even in official publications it being used as such.

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Accuracy is important because berber languages are not considered by most linguists to be a foreign import into Africa. So to say that "the berbers" came from Phoenicia or the "Sea Peoples" is simply incorrect. Primarily because there is no evidence that the "Sea PEoples" spoke any sort of Berber language or Afroasiatic language. If what you want to say is that SOME of the modern Berbers have ancestry from those groups then that totally makes sense but that is not the same as saying "The Berbers" came from the Sea Peoples. It is like saying all Americans came from Europe. Even though English is a European language all English speakers are not European. Every language has similar relationships to origins and populations that speak it.

That said, I do believe that most of the earlier discussions about the Sea Peoples being ancestors of "The berbers" is due to the iconography being so similar to many modern berbers, as has been discussed here many times. But all of those images of so called ancient 'berbers' or nomadic groups to the South and West of AE were not represented the same way. Just as today all populations to the South and West of Egypt don't look the same.

And on top of that E-M81 is an African genetic lineage. Why would it be introduced from somewhere else outside Africa?

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:E1b1bRoute.png
 

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Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
so for you a source from 1986 is more accurate than a genetic study made in 2017 ? Cheikh anta diop never made a genetic study and he never went in north africa...meanwhile his theory of sea people being the ancestors of modern berbers doesn't make sense because we have their dna and it's completely different : https://www.newsweek.com/biblical-philistines-sea-peoples-dna-1447114

Genetic studies on guanches show that they were similar to modern north africans.

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Accuracy is important because berber languages

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Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa.

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
Siwa Berbers are not Berbers at least genetically but mostly of Sub Saharan and Chadic origins :



Probably due to the trans-saharan slave trade Ottomans made it an important slave market

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Not all of the Berber are M81 carriers, unlike what you tend to think. The Siwa have been there long before any Ottoman reached Egypt. There are Berbers with Chadic origin. It's all a bit more complicated.



Fig. 1. A. Map showing the location of the North African populations used in the present study. Boxes with numbers show the limits between sections used to divide the region. Populations are: 1 Moroccan Arab (MAR); 2 Moroccan Berber (MBE); 3 Figuig Berber (FIG); 4 Asni Berber (ASN); 5 Bouhria Berber (BOU); 6 Souss (SOU); 7 West Saharan (WSH); 8 Saharawi (SAH); 9 Maurita- nian (MAU); 10 Algerian (ALG); 11 Mozabites (MZA); 12 Western Tuareg (WTUA); 13 Tunisian Urban (TUN_URB); 14 Matmata Berber (TMA); 15 Sened Berber (TSE); 16 Chenini-Douriet Berber; 17 Kesra Berber (KES); 18 Zriba Arab (ZRI); 19 Skira Berber (SKI); 20 Tunisian Andalusian (TUN_AND); 21 (DJE) Djerba; 22 Eastern Tuareg (ETUA); 23 Egyptian (EGY); 24 Upper Egypt (UPE); 25 Gurna (GUR); 26 Siwa (SIW); 27 Northern Nubian (NNUB); 28 Southern Nubian (SNUB); 33 Libya (LIB). B. Series of AMOVA results between and within groups including North African populations. Sample locations are represented in the map by dots. Five transects have been defined by the numbered white lines. Each analysis is represented by a raw in the bottom of the Figure. When two groups are defined, the split is located in one of the barriers limiting two sections, and populations laying on the left represent the Western group and populations on the right represented the Eastern group. Percentage of variation between groups and within groups is shown at the left and right sides of the figure respectively. * Level of significance below 5%; ** Level of significance below 1%.

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I know that they have been there before ottomans but ottomans put a lot of chadic slaves there so their dna has been altered and if you can be berber with a foreign haplogroup why do you consider north africans with J1 as arab ? Especially that guanches had j1 haplogroups even before the arab conquest :


 

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Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
I know that they have been there before ottomans but ottomans put a lot of chadic slaves there so their dna has been altered and if you can be berber with a foreign haplogroup why do you consider north africans with J1 as arab ? Especially that guanches had j1 haplogroups even before the arab conquest :

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Accuracy is important because berber languages

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I advice you to refer to to this post..

The purpose of my posts is to figure out what part of the Berber federation did what, when and where.

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Our results also point to a less ancient western sub-Saharan gene flow to Tunisia, including haplogroups L2a and L3b. This conclusion points to an ancient African gene flow to Tunisia before 20,000 BP. These findings parallel the more recent findings of both archaeology and linguistics on the prehistory of Africa.

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~Frigi et al

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--Elena A.A. Garcea

Successes and failures of human dispersals from North Africa
(2011)

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1040618211003612

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Berber is a branch of the Afroasiatic language family.[12] Since modern Berber languages are relatively homogeneous, the date of the Proto-Berber language from which the modern group is derived was probably comparatively recent, comparable to the age of the Germanic or Romance subfamilies. In contrast, the split of the group from the other Afroasiatic sub-phyla is much earlier, and is therefore sometimes associated with the local Mesolithic Capsian culture.[13] A number of extinct populations are believed to have spoken Afroasiatic languages of the Berber branch. According to Peter Behrens and Marianne Bechaus-Gerst, linguistic evidence suggests that the peoples of the C-Group culture in present-day southern Egypt and northern Sudan spoke Berber languages.[14][15] The Nilo-Saharan Nobiin language today contains a number of key pastoralism related loanwords that are of Berber origin, including the terms for sheep and water/Nile. This in turn suggests that the C-Group population—which, along with the Kerma culture, inhabited the Nile valley immediately before the arrival of the first Nubian speakers—spoke Afro-Asiatic languages.[14]

Roger Blench has suggested that Proto-Berber speakers had spread from the Nile River valley to North Africa 4,000-5,000 years ago due to the spread of pastoralism, and experienced intense language leveling about 2,000 years ago.[16] Hence, although Berber had split off from Afroasiatic several thousand years ago, Proto-Berber itself can only be reconstructed to a period as late as 200 A.D. Blench noted that Berber is considerably different from other Afroasiatic branches, but modern-day Berber languages display low internal diversity. The presence of Punic borrowings in Proto-Berber points to the diversification of modern Berber language varieties subsequent to the fall of Carthage in 146 B.C.; only Zenaga lacks Punic loanwords.[16] Additionally, Latin loanwords in Proto-Berber point to the breakup of Proto-Berber between 0-200 A.D. During this time period, Roman innovations including the ox-plough, camel, and orchard management were adopted by Berber communities along the limes, or borders of the Roman Empire, as evidenced by the frequency of Latin loanwords from this period in these semantic domains.[16] This resulted in a new trading culture involving the use of a lingua franca which became Proto-Berber.[16]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
I know that they have been there before ottomans but ottomans put a lot of chadic slaves there so their dna has been altered and if you can be berber with a foreign haplogroup why do you consider north africans with J1 as arab ? Especially that guanches had j1 haplogroups even before the arab conquest :

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So you are telling me that the Ottoman-Turks went all the way to Central-West Africa to take slaves and deport them to Northwest Egypt? Does that sound like logic to you?

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well yes it does :



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

they even imported black slaves in anatolia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Turks
 

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Posted by Ish Geber (Member # 18264) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Dude I got you. You are saying that the coastal popuations of Berbers in North Africa are partly descended from various waves of invaders/migrants over the last 4000 years or so. Fine. But Berber languages did not come from those invaders.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
I know that they have been there before ottomans but ottomans put a lot of chadic slaves there so their dna has been altered and if you can be berber with a foreign haplogroup why do you consider north africans with J1 as arab ? Especially that guanches had j1 haplogroups even before the arab conquest :

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So you are telling me that the Ottoman-Turks went all the way to Central-West Africa to take slaves and deport them to Northwest Egypt? Does that sound like logic to you?

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well yes it does :



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

they even imported black slaves in anatolia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Turks

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That is hypothetical, unfound and also from the 1800s.

My thesis is the West African muslims already did the Haji in Mecca, which is the duty of every Muslim to obtain at least once in a lifetime.

Hence Mansa Musa's famous pilgrimage. That to me sounds more rational.





And yes, there are Afro-Turks. Turkish folks call the "Arab", for some odd reason. We need the genetic composition to understand to who they relate. Perhaps some 23andme Youtube can be helpful.

Now, the question is, what has this to do with the Siwa Berbers, who you claim are not Berbers?


To the people of SIWA, whose efforts made this proposal possible:

http://www.fao.org/3/a-bp825e.pdf
 

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Posted by Askia_the_small (Member # 23214) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
I know that they have been there before ottomans but ottomans put a lot of chadic slaves there so their dna has been altered and if you can be berber with a foreign haplogroup why do you consider north africans with J1 as arab ? Especially that guanches had j1 haplogroups even before the arab conquest :

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So you are telling me that the Ottoman-Turks went all the way to Central-West Africa to take slaves and deport them to Northwest Egypt? Does that sound like logic to you?

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well yes it does :



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

they even imported black slaves in anatolia : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Afro-Turks

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That is hypothetical, unfound and also from the 1800s.

My thesis is the West African muslims already did the Haji in Mecca, which is the duty of every Muslim to obtain at least once in a lifetime.

Hence Mansa Musa's famous pilgrimage. That to me sounds more rational.





And yes, there are Afro-Turks. Turkish folks call the "Arab", for some odd reason. We need the genetic composition to understand to who they relate. Perhaps some 23andme Youtube can be helpful.

Now, the question is, what has this to do with the Siwa Berbers, who you claim are not Berbers?


To the people of SIWA, whose efforts made this proposal possible:

http://www.fao.org/3/a-bp825e.pdf

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Dude I got you. You are saying that the coastal popuations of Berbers in North Africa are partly descended from various waves of invaders/migrants over the last 4000 years or so. Fine. But Berber languages did not come from those invaders.

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No, that is not what I am saying, and I am sorry if it came across like that. What I am trying to understand is who played what role inane what time of history. That doesn't mean invaders necessarily. They do have African lineage after all. It's more so, how they got into Europe and what effect it had on local populations there were there and came in. In particular regions Southern Europe, Iberian and Greek/ Italy.

I am putting it in contrast to the these early Mediterranean populations that inhabited the region.

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Linking the sub-Saharan and West Eurasian gene ... - NCBIwww.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov › pubmed
Mar 17, 2010 - The Tuareg presently live in the Sahara and the Sahel. Their ancestors are commonly believed to be the Garamantes of the Libyan Fezzan, ever since it was suggested by authors of antiquity. Biological evidence, based on classical genetic markers, however, indicates kinship with the Beja of Eastern Sudan.

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Originally posted by Askia_the_small:
wait wait ...are you really denying the reality of the trans-saharan slave trade ?? what's next the atlantic one too ? Ok enough I clearly see that you're not willing to learn so I will stop here the discussion (lol a malian can reach mecca but a powerful ottoman state isn't able to reach sub-saharan africa you see how ridiculous it sounds ? )

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quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Dude I got you. You are saying that the coastal popuations of Berbers in North Africa are partly descended from various waves of invaders/migrants over the last 4000 years or so. Fine. But Berber languages did not come from those invaders.

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No, that is not what I am saying, and I am sorry if it came across like that. What I am trying to understand is who played what role inane what time of history. That doesn't mean invaders necessarily. They do have African lineage after all. It's more so, how they got into Europe and what effect it had on local populations there were there and came in. In particular regions Southern Europe, Iberian and Greek/ Italy.

I am putting it in contrast to the these early Mediterranean populations that inhabited the region.

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it isn't you really since we all know that whenever anything comes up related to he history of North Africa invariably the same talking points are made. E-M81 is not proof of a non African origin for berber languages because E-M81 is not of non African origin. At least that is how I am looking at it. Of course the population history of North Africa is complex but I don't think one DNA lineage is enough to understand that history especially going back more than 5000 years where "berber languages" didn't yet exist.

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I am not sure what you trying to say. There is many ethnic groups with each a distinctive history, but as a whole they do relate because of kinship commonalty. Yes, the language itself is relatively young.

Rogerblench,

http://rogerblench.info/Language/Afroasiatic/General/AALIST.pdf

Issues in the Historical Phonology Issues in the Historical Phonology of Chadic Languages of Chadic Languages H. Ekkehard Wolff Chair: African Languages & Linguistics Leipzig University
http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/conference/08_springschool/pdf/course_materials/Wolff_Historical_Phonology.pdf



 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:


My thesis is the West African muslims already did the Haji in Mecca, which is the duty of every Muslim to obtain at least once in a lifetime.

Hence Mansa Musa's famous pilgrimage. That to me sounds more rational.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
Dude I got you. You are saying that the coastal popuations of Berbers in North Africa are partly descended from various waves of invaders/migrants over the last 4000 years or so. Fine. But Berber languages did not come from those invaders.

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No, that is not what I am saying, and I am sorry if it came across like that. What I am trying to understand is who played what role inane what time of history. That doesn't mean invaders necessarily. They do have African lineage after all. It's more so, how they got into Europe and what effect it had on local populations there were there and came in. In particular regions Southern Europe, Iberian and Greek/ Italy.

I am putting it in contrast to the these early Mediterranean populations that inhabited the region.

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it isn't you really since we all know that whenever anything comes up related to he history of North Africa invariably the same talking points are made. E-M81 is not proof of a non African origin for berber languages because E-M81 is not of non African origin. At least that is how I am looking at it. Of course the population history of North Africa is complex but I don't think one DNA lineage is enough to understand that history especially going back more than 5000 years where "berber languages" didn't yet exist.

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I am not sure what you trying to say. There is many ethnic groups with each a distinctive history, but as a whole they do relate because of kinship commonalty. Yes, the language itself is relatively young.

Rogerblench,

http://rogerblench.info/Language/Afroasiatic/General/AALIST.pdf

Issues in the Historical Phonology Issues in the Historical Phonology of Chadic Languages of Chadic Languages H. Ekkehard Wolff Chair: African Languages & Linguistics Leipzig University
http://www.eva.mpg.de/lingua/conference/08_springschool/pdf/course_materials/Wolff_Historical_Phonology.pdf

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Here, by using whole Y chromosome sequences, we intend to shed some light on the historical and demographic processes that modelled the genetic landscape of North Africa. Previous studies suggested that the strategic location of North Africa, separated from Europe by the Mediterranean Sea, from the rest of the African continent by the Sahara Desert and limited to the East by the Arabian Peninsula, has shaped the genetic complexity of current North Africans15,16,17. Early modern humans arrived in North Africa 190–140 kya (thousand years ago)18, and several cultures settled in the area before the Holocene. In fact, a previous study by Henn et al.19 identified a gradient of likely autochthonous North African ancestry, probably derived from an ancient “back-to-Africa” gene flow prior to the Holocene (12 kya). In historic times, North Africa has been populated successively by different groups, including Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals and Byzantines. The most important human settlement in North Africa was conducted by the Arabs by the end of the 7th century. Recent studies have demonstrated the complexity of human migrations in the area, resulting from an amalgam of ancestral components in North African groups15,20.

Besides geography, cultural diversity must also be considered. Two branches of languages belonging to the Afro-Asiatic family define two major groups in North Africa: Arabs and Berbers. Arabic languages and culture, as well as the Islamic religion, were brought from the Near East during the Islamic expansion. The Berber people, characterized for speaking Berber languages, are considered the direct descendants of the ancestral pre-Arabic peoples of North Africa20. However, the Berber language and ethnicity should not be equated: many Berber speakers live in large cities, particularly in Morocco and Algeria, and some populations with traditional lifestyles, such as the Reguibates, speak Arabic dialects. In spite of their cultural differences, Y-chromosome SNPs and STRs21, and autosomal haplotype-based methods20 have demonstrated the absence of strong genetic differences between Berbers and Arabs.

Studies based on the Y chromosome have highlighted E-M78 and E-M81 as the most frequent paternal lineages in North Africa, although they showed different distribution patterns. Whereas the frequency of E-M78 declines towards Northwest Africa, E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East; it is found sporadically in S Europe and E Africa, and it is practically absent elsewhere. These evidences suggest that E-M81 must be considered to explore the historical and demographical processes that gave rise to current North African populations. However, little is known about the phylogeographic structure of this haplogroup and its origin and emergence are still very controversial. While some studies pointed to a Palaeolithic origin21, other authors claimed that E-M81 may have a Neolithic origin22. The most likely scenario, as suggested by Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.17, is that the origin of E-M81 is more recent than previously reported.

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Originally posted by Doug M:



I don't understand why it wasn't clear. All "berbers" aren't carrying E-M81. This thread is about E-M81 and where it arose in Africa. I don't know why we are turning this into a vague discussion about "berbers" and "berber language" in North Africa. E-M81 is simply one piece of a larger puzzle. Also I am not sure what Chadic groups have to do with E-M81 either.
Anyway this "complexity" is called out in the paper from the top of this thread:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
In historic times, North Africa has been populated successively by different groups, including Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals and Byzantines. The most important human settlement in North Africa was conducted by the Arabs by the end of the 7th century. Recent studies have demonstrated the complexity of human migrations in the area, resulting from an amalgam of ancestral components in North African groups15,20.

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Originally posted by Doug M:

Studies based on the Y chromosome have highlighted E-M78 and E-M81 as the most frequent paternal lineages in North Africa, although they showed different distribution patterns. Whereas the frequency of E-M78 declines towards Northwest Africa, E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East; it is found sporadically in S Europe and E Africa, and it is practically absent elsewhere. These evidences suggest that E-M81 must be considered to explore the historical and demographical processes that gave rise to current North African populations. However, little is known about the phylogeographic structure of this haplogroup and its origin and emergence are still very controversial. While some studies pointed to a Palaeolithic origin21, other authors claimed that E-M81 may have a Neolithic origin22. The most likely scenario, as suggested by Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.17, is that the origin of E-M81 is more recent than previously reported

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-16271-y?fbclid=IwAR23g0zmbdtMZ1hpL8YA_W1vnccjR3KBM600akdwBhXixQ8YfWvD-6y_yGY

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by Doug M:



I don't understand why it wasn't clear. All "berbers" aren't carrying E-M81. This thread is about E-M81 and where it arose in Africa. I don't know why we are turning this into a vague discussion about "berbers" and "berber language" in North Africa. E-M81 is simply one piece of a larger puzzle. Also I am not sure what Chadic groups have to do with E-M81 either.
Anyway this "complexity" is called out in the paper from the top of this thread:

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I didn't start with the Berber language, it was you who did. I am speaking of the many different Berbers in the federation and their significant history with surrounding populations.

But since you brought it up, we can see trace regions.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berber_languages

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Originally posted by Doug M:
In historic times, North Africa has been populated successively by different groups, including Phoenicians, Romans, Vandals and Byzantines. The most important human settlement in North Africa was conducted by the Arabs by the end of the 7th century. Recent studies have demonstrated the complexity of human migrations in the area, resulting from an amalgam of ancestral components in North African groups15,20.

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I tend to focus on this history. Because here is were it all began. Before that time there is not a lot known.

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Originally posted by Doug M:

Studies based on the Y chromosome have highlighted E-M78 and E-M81 as the most frequent paternal lineages in North Africa, although they showed different distribution patterns. Whereas the frequency of E-M78 declines towards Northwest Africa, E-M81 has been found at high frequencies (71%) in Northwestern Africa and its frequency decreases towards the East; it is found sporadically in S Europe and E Africa, and it is practically absent elsewhere. These evidences suggest that E-M81 must be considered to explore the historical and demographical processes that gave rise to current North African populations. However, little is known about the phylogeographic structure of this haplogroup and its origin and emergence are still very controversial. While some studies pointed to a Palaeolithic origin21, other authors claimed that E-M81 may have a Neolithic origin22. The most likely scenario, as suggested by Fadhlaoui-Zid et al.17, is that the origin of E-M81 is more recent than previously reported

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-017-16271-y?fbclid=IwAR23g0zmbdtMZ1hpL8YA_W1vnccjR3KBM600akdwBhXixQ8YfWvD-6y_yGY

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Yes, that is the overall genetic composition.


The odd thing is that two Central-Sudanic tribes carry E-M78 in the highest frequency.

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Originally posted by Doug M:
All I am saying is that both E-M81 and Berber languages are ultimately of African origin. I don't believe that that there is any serious evidence otherwise. Berber people are diverse as expected given the population history of North Africa, but that doesn't change the origin of Berber languages nor E-M81

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:


My thesis is the West African muslims already did the Haji in Mecca, which is the duty of every Muslim to obtain at least once in a lifetime.

Hence Mansa Musa's famous pilgrimage. That to me sounds more rational.

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so they were boinking Arab girls while on the the Hajj ?

You are the only one who has this Hajj-sex theory

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:


My thesis is the West African muslims already did the Haji in Mecca, which is the duty of every Muslim to obtain at least once in a lifetime.

Hence Mansa Musa's famous pilgrimage. That to me sounds more rational.

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
All I am saying is that both E-M81 and Berber languages are ultimately of African origin. I don't believe that that there is any serious evidence otherwise. Berber people are diverse as expected given the population history of North Africa, but that doesn't change the origin of Berber languages nor E-M81

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Can you show me where I claimed or said otherwise? I showed the Roger Blench Classification. So we know from where Berber originates.

I said, I am interested in the part of the Berber federation who did what, when and where. And how they populated Southern Europe.

It is in particular interesting to know is that Aeneas reached Carthage, according to the legend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJm9N5FIh7Y

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:


My thesis is the West African muslims already did the Haji in Mecca, which is the duty of every Muslim to obtain at least once in a lifetime.

Hence Mansa Musa's famous pilgrimage. That to me sounds more rational.

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this thesis is supposed to explain what?

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Originally posted by Doug M:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
All I am saying is that both E-M81 and Berber languages are ultimately of African origin. I don't believe that that there is any serious evidence otherwise. Berber people are diverse as expected given the population history of North Africa, but that doesn't change the origin of Berber languages nor E-M81

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Can you show me where I claimed or said otherwise? I showed the Roger Blench Classification. So we know from where Berber originates.

I said, I am interested in the part of the Berber federation who did what, when and where. And how they populated Southern Europe.

It is in particular interesting to know is that Aeneas reached Carthage, according to the legend.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bJm9N5FIh7Y

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I believe the paper is saying that E-M81 is possibly of Near Eastern origin origin..... Again muddying the waters any time the discussion of North African genetic and population history. Which is why I clarify that this is an African lineage and not something originating outside of Africa. The problem with these kinds of papers is they like to make vague conclusions and say it "could" have been African or "could" have been Eurasian which just leads to more endless speculation. But to keep it simple, E-M81 and berber languages are African. Period. Other genes and populations have come into the fold but we should not confuse that with the origin of Berber languages/culture or indigenous African DNA lineages. Europeans, Levantines and Arabians did not bring African DNA lineages to Africa nor did they bring African culture and language to Africa either.

And if you want to be technical nomadic cave dwelling culture originated in Africa, primarily driven by the drying up of the Sahara and the ancient nomadic ways of Africans since before humans left Africa. Africans have always been moving around and this is the reason why humans settled the planet. And this pattern of a nomadic lifestyle along with the adoption of pack animals is found across Northern Africa, the Sahel and into Arabia and the Levant which is all part of a greater African historical imprint. So not only did the settled lifestyle that is the basis of civilization come from Africa but so did the wandering nomadic culture as well....

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nomadic_pastoralism

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bedouin


But you will never see them write a paper on the E-Lineages and proto semitic being part of a wave of African expansion into the Near East......

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:
That thesis is to explain that hundreds of thousands if not millions of West Africans traveled to Mecca on freewil. Some even stayed at certain stoppage and settle there. This is a historical fact. lol

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

quote:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:


My thesis is the West African muslims already did the Haji in Mecca, which is the duty of every Muslim to obtain at least once in a lifetime.

Hence Mansa Musa's famous pilgrimage. That to me sounds more rational.

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this thesis is supposed to explain what?

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That thesis is to explain that hundreds of thousands if not millions of West Africans traveled to Mecca on freewil. Some even stayed at certain stoppage and settle there. This is a historical fact. lol

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Originally posted by Doug M:
I believe the paper is saying that E-M81 is possibly of Near Eastern origin origin..... Again muddying the waters any time the discussion of North African genetic and population history. Which is why I clarify that this is an African lineage and not something originating outside of Africa. The problem with these kinds of papers is they like to make vague conclusions and say it "could" have been African or "could" have been Eurasian which just leads to more endless speculation. But to keep it simple, E-M81 and berber languages are African. Period.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
what relevance does that have to the article of the thread topic?

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Originally posted by Tukuler:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:
That thesis is to explain that hundreds of thousands if not millions of West Africans traveled to Mecca on freewil. Some even stayed at certain stoppage and settle there. This is a historical fact. lol

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Yes it is.
This is why Fulani are in Saudi.
"Hostels" set up for Hajjis.
Some stayed and became citizens.

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JEDDAH: An estimated 10 percent of the Saudi population is of African descent, living mainly in the Western Region, and particularly in Makkah. Their roots lie in the annual Hajj pilgrimage and the British colonization of Africa in the 19th century.
For hundreds of years, pilgrims and oppressed Muslims from that continent traveled to Makkah and Madinah, and chose to make those cities their home. They came mainly from Chad, Burkina Faso, Gambia, Mali, Senegal and especially Nigeria.

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Muslim communities in the forest zones were minority communities often linked to trading diasporas. Many of the traditions in the forest zones still reflect the tradition of Al-Hajj Salim Suwari, a late fifteenth-century Soninke scholar, who focused on responsibilities of Muslims in a non-Muslim society.

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From West Africa to Mecca and Jerusalem: The Tijāniyya on the Hajj Routes

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
what relevance does that have to the article of the thread topic?

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It's relevance is so we can see things in accurate historical context.

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Originally posted by the lioness,:

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Originally posted by Ish Geber:

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
what relevance does that have to the article of the thread topic?

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It's relevance is so we can see things in accurate historical context.

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what relevance does people doing the Hajj have to do with E-M183 (E-M81) ?

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Originally posted by the lioness,:
none of the "here"s explain why you think the Hajj pilgrimage is relevant to this topic.

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If you don't get it that is a very sorry situation. Siwa was mentioned. And Siwa was associated with slavery and slaves coming from West Africa. Because Africans only can move to other places by slavery and being enslaved, right? That is the suggestion that was made. The Hajj pilgrimage is not a reason why Africans have moved and resided in other places, right? When the "slave narrative" was being concocted you had no problem with it. It only became on issue to you when The Hajj pilgrimage was mentioned as an explanation, to why certain groups from Africa live outside of the what is suspected "traditional regions".

This topic is literally about the historical movement of E-M183 and Berber populations. But now The Hajj pilgrimage, which is a historical movement, is not important to the conversation?



 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Bump
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
It's not a recent origin per se but a recent expansion due to a founder effect prior to that north africans probably had a more diverse set of paternal hg which can be seen among the guanches for example who had lots of r1b and even J1-m267 :


 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Roger Blench has a chronology for the peopling of the canaries.. his theory seems they may have been Phoenician slaves left there from collecting murex purple die color Tyrian purple




https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuZOjaq3Fiw
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
The recent spread of Berber matches with the recent spread of E-M81 not from the Phoenicians but from the western Egyptian desert and oasis



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opK24UEw8nY
 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Roger Blench has a chronology for the peopling of the canaries.. his theory seems they may have been Phoenician slaves left there from collecting murex purple die color Tyrian purple

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The lack of overlap between the mtDNA composition of Phoenicians and the Canarian indigenous people dis-agrees with either a Punic-Phoenician origin for the ancient islanders or sustained contact between the two populations

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In sum, it is highly likely that around the beginning of the first millennium B.C. the convergence of progressive aridification and increasing anthropic pressure caused the definitive degradation of an already extremely fragile environment, the Tarfaya coastal basin. The consequences of this deterioration, even if difficult to assess in detail, were most likely dramatic for the persistence of the modes of production and socio-economic reproduction of the last local Neolithic formations. Certainly the visual knowledge of the existence of the islands, the mastery of the aquatic environment and, finally, the presence of temporarily favorable navigation conditions favorable conditions of navigation could have facilitated around 3000 BP the crossing of the channel of the Canaries to a part of these populations driven out by the desertification. This is at least what the latest archaeological data available for the Canary hinterland suggest, the new absolute dates obtained in Tenerife and Fuerteventura and, perhaps also, the impoverishment of the vegetation cover that at the same time attest in this last island of recent paleoenvironmental studies.

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Nevertheless, we can affirm that the ancient colonization of the Canary Islands (Archaic Berber culture) was initiated by the sixth century BC in El Hierro, La Palma, La Gomera, Tenerife, and Gran Canaria. In a second stage, a Romanized Berber culture was introduced since the time of Augustus and Juba II (first century BC–1 century AD) to Lanzarote, Fuerteventura, Gran Canaria, El Hierro, and Tenerife."

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https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s10437-010-9070-4


Literally no phoenician cultural influences, their dna is not similar to the phoenician samples nor do they have the same Haplogroup so what's your point ?
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
He did not say they were Phoenicians but Berber slaves of the Phoenicians... and yet that does not debunk the idea that the island was not inhabited before 350 BC... boy you don't bother to read nor do you bother to listen before rebuttal



 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
The recent spread of Berber matches with the recent spread of E-M81 not from the Phoenicians but from the western Egyptian desert and oasis



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=opK24UEw8nY

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
He did not say they were Phoenicians but Berber slaves of the Phoenicians

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
The word serf & slave are right there in the presentation from him that I posted... argue with the yte man don't argue with me....

E-V257's dominant sub-clade E-M81 is thought to have originated in the area of North Africa 14,000 years ago, but all Yfull members are M183 and have a TMRCA just 2700 years ago

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Don't argue with me argue with Wikipedia
And make sure you watch his WHOLE lecture on proto beber

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Don't argue with me argue with Wikipedia
And make sure you watch his WHOLE lecture on proto beber

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I literally read most of his papers on berber lingusitics and wikipedia isn't a reliable source of information I'm talking based on the books I've read.

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

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Originally posted by Antalas:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Don't argue with me argue with Wikipedia
And make sure you watch his WHOLE lecture on proto beber

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I literally read most of his papers on berber lingusitics and wikipedia isn't a reliable source of information I'm talking based on the books I've read.

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Which book are those?

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To realise its dreams of North African hegemony, France wielded ethnic and cultural diversity as a weapon and engineered sectarian discord to achieve its colonial goals.
For colonial strategists ‘divide and conquer’ was the tool of choice in exploiting its victims' soft spots. And nothing gave the French more leverage than frictions between identity and ethnicity in North Africa.

The experiment-turned-policy began in Algeria. France’s colonisation of the country endured for 132 years from 1830 to 1962, and saw the use of every means and resource to subjugate the Algerian people. In the process, Algeria lost nearly 10 percent of its population with more than five million killed.

France would wage a bloody war of subjugation with heavy weaponry, napalm, air strikes, razings, torture, and assassination. But it also waged a quieter, more insidious war at the time, that targeted the components of Algerian identity: Amazigh and Arab ethnicities.

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Moroccan Researcher: Amazigh New Year Is a French Invention
The researcher claims that the Tifinagh alphabet used to write the Amazigh language was a French “invention, whose goal is to ignite a civil war in Morocco

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Bernard Lugan is a racist

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

what have you read in English...

Nobody cares about the French... they wanted to create a Berber identity .. and your political appropriation of Amazigh identity is a result of that

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
You can work in Africa and still be a racist...

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: [QUOTE] Farkish believes that, in the past, there was nothing called an Amazigh year. “The celebration of the Amazigh year is caused by the search for an Amazigh identity, but this research should be based on accepted scientific foundations as it should not be a ... historical lie.”

The researcher described the Amazigh year as a “historical lie” in an interview with Arabic news outlet al Ousboue./QUOTE] [/qb]

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:
Antalas you a desperate little man in search of an Identity in a sea of whiteness and you are willing to still black african history to do it

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steal black african history ? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH really but what's going on in your head ? WTF do you seriously believe that all north africans are recent invaders and that ancient north africans looked like you ?


How can you seriously believe such thing with all the datas we have ? Literally an afro-american of west african descent is telling north africans who they should be all of this in order to claim their history and heritage. the lady here doesn't even know from where exactly in africa she's from, is totally westernized culturally but pretends she can give lessons to africans who know damn well from where they're from ....smh this is a mental condition but I won't start insulting you tbh because I know why afro-americans are like this and what they went through they try to build a strong sense of identity and something that can be confronted to white civilizations that's why we end up with afro-american communities like the hebrew israelites, moorish temple of america, nation of islam, Nuwaubian Nation, even some claim to be native americans, etc etc
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 
Stop the STEAL... We wuz yte cave dwelling barbarians
 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

 

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Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
 
^that phoenician map is completely inaccurate they never controled that much territory in North Africa and Iberia and these were mostly trade posts not really military conquests (for example during the first centuries, carthaginians literally payed regularly a tribute to a local libyan king for the land they occupied)

Something more accurate but still only partially would be this :


 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 
ok but the main thing is the J percentages for the various NA countries
also weighted more toward Algeria and Tunisia than Morocco, about 27% and 20%, Algeria and Tunisia total
 

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Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
 

 

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Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
 

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

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Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa:

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These weren't punics but sicilians and half sicilians, only one sample was fully north african :



I already made a thread on them here
 

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