New evidence on the mummy of Queen Nefertiti! Join Curtis Ryan Woodside, Kara Cooney, Bob Bianchi, Sofia Aziz, Aidan Dodson, Paul Harrison and John J Johnston as we explore the various theories about Nefertiti's mummy and tomb, as well as discovering new evidence in the search for the mysterious Egyptian Queen.
_________________________________________
The Younger Lady KV35YL, Tutankhmun's mother is also his father Akenhaten's sister,
^^ Not is not Nefertiti according to Yehia Z. Gad and Albert Zink of the Hawass team, 2020 although this has been reported since 2010, that Tutankhamun was the child of Akhenaten and Akhenaten's own sister __________________________________
The mitochondrial and Y-chromosomal DNA analysis of Tutankhamun’s family confirms our previous data of the royal family pedigree, with multiple controls authenticating all results. The proposed sibling relationship between Tutankhamun’s parents, KV55 (Akhenaten) and KV35YL, is further supported. . Yuya and Thuya were confirmed as the great-grandparents of Tutankhamun (generation I). Amenhotep III and KV 35EL were identified as his grandparents (generation II), and the KV 55 male and the younger lady in KV 35 (KV35YL) were found to be his sibling parents (generation III) - Maternal and Paternal Lineages in King Tutankhamun’s Family, 2020 Yehia Z. Gad – Somaia, Ismail – Dina Fathalla – Rabab Khairat – Suzan Fares – Ahmed Z. Gad – Rama Saad – Amal Moustafa – Eslam elShahat – Naglaa H. Abu Mandil – Mohamed Fateen – Hisham el-Leithy – Sally Wasef – Albert Zink – Zahi Hawass – Carsten M. Pusch
______________________
However, wiki:
In 2008, genetic analysis was carried out on the mummified remains of Tutankhamun and others thought or known to be New Kingdom royalty by a team from University of Cairo. The results indicated that his father was the mummy from tomb KV55, identified as Akhenaten, and that his mother was the mummy from tomb KV35, known as the "Younger Lady", who was found to be a full sister of her husband.[27] This means that the KV35 Younger Lady cannot be identified as Nefertiti as she was not known to be a sister of Akhenaten.[28] The team reported it was over 99.99 percent certain that Amenhotep III was the father of the individual in KV55, who was in turn the father of Tutankhamun.[29] The validity and reliability of the genetic data from mummified remains has been questioned due to possible degradation due to decay.[30] Researchers such as Marc Gabolde and Aidan Dodson claim that Nefertiti was indeed Tutankhamun's mother. In this interpretation of the DNA results, the genetic closeness is not due to a brother-sister pairing but the result of three generations of first-cousin marriage, making Nefertiti a first cousin of Akhenaten.
Tomb 21 was originally discovered by Giovanni Belzoni in 1817. This large, undecorated tomb was found to contain the remains of two female mummies and funerary equipment. The tomb remained open for about a decade until it was apparently buried by flood debris. A trench was carved down to the tomb entrance in the 1890's and this too was filled in. The tomb was rediscovered and inside, was found evidence that the tomb and its contents had been damaged by flooding. The Belzoni recorded mummies were found vandalized and broken into pieces. When rearticulated, however, the two mummies appear to have the same royal female pose.
At tomb KV21 the two mummies found are believed to have relation to Akhenaten. KV21A is believed to be the mother of two of Tutahnkamun's still born daughters, possibly Ankhesenamun, though there is no way of confirming this speculation. Among other theories, KV21B is speculated to be Nebetnehat, a daughter of Amenhotep III. DNA analysis did not yield enough data to make a firm identification but tied her to the late Eighteenth Dynasty royal line.[2] Hawass considers this mummy is a candidate for the body of Nefertiti; this is based on her association with the possible body of Ankhesenamun. It is now known that in KV35, a mother (Tiye) was found lying next to her daughter (the Younger Lady); it is possible the same relationship exists between these mummies
____________________________
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
new reconstruction video from the one used in the documentary
Anna von Helmholtz is her name. She was not Ludwig Borchardt's wife somebody is scamming This is why they don't mention her name in the comparison graphic at top
Anna von Helmholtz ( 1834 – 1899), was a German salonnière and writer who translated or edited the translations of a number of scientific works. She was the second wife of the physicist, Hermann von Helmholtz.
Ludwig Borchardt's wife was Emilie Cohen (1877 - 1948)
Ludwig Borchardt and his wife Emilie (Cohen) Borchardt
Borchardt began excavations in Amarna, where he discovered the workshop of the sculptor Thutmose. Amongst its contents was the famous bust of Nefertiti,
This is slightly off topic. I just wanted to put this graphic to rest. This thread is about which mummy is Nefertiti and which is not
There are two different sets of two female mummies in different places
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote: In a historic forensic reconstruction project, Travel Channel is revealing the face of King Tut's mother for the first time.
A team of scientists at the University of Bristol in England digitally mapped the face of a mummy known as "The Younger Lady."
The badly damaged mummy of the Younger Lady was uncovered in a tomb in Egypt's Valley of the Kings in 1898, and shown through DNA evidence in 2010, to be King Tut's biological mother. Tut's father was the pharaoh Akhenaten, who was married to Nefertiti. It has therefore been theorized that this mummy could be the remains of the legendary queen, whose body has never been positively identified.Using the latest 3D imaging technology, the mummy's face was digitally mapped to create a replica of her head. With this model and forensic analysis, paleoartist Elisabeth Daynès, known for her recreation of King Tut in 2005, sculpted a lifelike bust of the Younger Lady's face. The striking result was then analyzed against well-known images of Queen Nefertiti.
As for the structure of the head in this reconstruction one could argue it better resemble the mummy "Younger Lady" KV35YL than the famous bust does. The most distinct thing I notice is the longer distance on the mummy between the bottom of her nose and mouth (although a lot of that mouth area is damaged, ripped out) That is not common in ancient Egyptians. It's something seen more often in aboriginal Australians. They also made her lips fuller in the modern reconstruction than the old sculpture.
However in the documentary in the OP some researchers think that mummy is not Nefertiti instead it's this one KV21B
There are a great many amateurs on youtube and elsewhere using various software to create "reconstructions" of various ancient individuals. They are not necessarily scientists and it doesn't make it "valid" just because someone posted it online. This 'reconstruction' basically just took the shriveled up remains from a photo and traced over it and added color. That is hardly even scientific or anatomically accurate to what the individual would have looked like in real life. And of course by default they put light coloring on the skin probably referencing the Berlin bust. Yet these people I guess claim to be "scientists" when actual reconstructions done using clay model the tissues and flesh using skeletal information not just tracing over the actual remains and coloring them.
......
But of course the obsession with Nefertiti just boils down to wanting to keep showing that Berlin bust as the archetype for ALL Queens in Kemet, when Nefertiti was not a powerful queen and the one before her, Queen Tiye, was actually far more powerful and had many more artifacts to her reign. Unfortunately none of them look like the Berlin bust but that doesn't stop them from taking the same sloppy approach as taken with Nefertiti above:
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: There are a great many amateurs on youtube and elsewhere using various software to create "reconstructions" of various ancient individuals.
let's see a link to a URL you think is better of Nefertiti
You are missing the point of this reconstruction Everybody else bases it on The Younger Lady KV35YL and or the sculpture But this one is based on an entirely different mummy KV21B
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Standing Figure of Nefertiti, limestone
Reconstruction Uneccesary Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
The only way it can be established if KV21B is Nefertiti is if her genome correlates with being the daughter of Aye and thus grandaughter of Yuya and Thuya as well as being a niece of Tiye.
LOL @ the variation in reconstructions of the KV35 Younger Lady.
vs.
^ The bottom is an earlier reconstruction commissioned by Discvoery Channel and done by forensic scientists who were double-blinded meaning to prevent bias they didn't know who the skull belonged to so the results are evident.
Meanwhile the KV21B reconstruction looks more similar to the surviving murals.
Posted by Antalas (Member # 23506) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] The only way it can be established if KV21B is Nefertiti is if her genome correlates with being the daughter of Aye and thus grandaughter of Yuya and Thuya as well as being a niece of Tiye.
LOL @ the variation in reconstructions of the KV35 Younger Lady.
There is a high probability that's not Nefertiti but it doesn't change the fact the reconstruction is legit and represent a family member.
Also I don't think we need any reconstruction, the bust of Nefertiti is already quite telling.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Meanwhile the KV21B reconstruction looks more similar to the surviving murals.
Since when is amarnian art realistic ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Head of a statue of a queen (Nefertiti or Merit-Aten), from Amarna; 18th dynasty;
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: The only way it can be established if KV21B is Nefertiti is if her genome correlates with being the daughter of Aye and thus grandaughter of Yuya and Thuya as well as being a niece of Tiye.
Nefertiti is not the mother of Tut. Tut was born from incest between Akhenaton and his Sister. This was established already from genetics.
As for how she looked, there are hundreds of different reliefs and carvings of Nefertiti and some of them are of dubious origin and fakes. Between these images there is no consistency as there is with other figures from the Nile valley. The "Berlin Bust" never left the so-called artists workshop where it was stored and therefore is the most unlike all the other representations. Most of the others having some kind of brown coloration.
The most common depiction of Nefertiti is with braids similar to other 18th dynasty figures, like Tiye:
Late Amarna-era relief depicting Nefertiti (Photo: Keith Schengili-Roberts, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons)
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas: There is a high probability that's not Nefertiti but it doesn't change the fact the reconstruction is legit and represent a family member.
Also I don't think we need any reconstruction, the bust of Nefertiti is already quite telling.
There you go with your selective reading comphrension. First, of all I never said the KV35 Lady was Nefertiti as the genomic evidence shows otherwise-- being a full sibling of Tut's father.
Second, I merely pointed out the faults of reconstruction especially when those forensic artists doing it are biased. And even if the bust of Nefertiti is authentic, I've shown proof that the paint of her skin has been faded (if not brushed off). Funny how you tout her bust but that of Tiye and Tut you dismiss as "darkened wood"! LOL
quote:Since when is amarnian art realistic?
LMAO So the Armanan bust of Nefertiti is realistic but all the other artwork is not?! Besides, even if the art is more idealistic than naturalistic what does that tell you about ideal looks of that time?
Look, I already busted your Neandernuts. You want more punishment then there is more to come! Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Late Amarna-era relief depicting Nefertiti (Photo: Keith Schengili-Roberts, CC BY-SA 3.0, via Wikimedia Commons)
It should be clear by now that Nefertiti was not the only royal lady in the Amarna court. Tut's mother was not Nefertiti but a full sibling of his own father who by the way is not even fully identitfied as Akhenaten!
So we can't just point to any random depiction of a royal woman as Nefertiti. The probability of it being Nefertiti is high if she shown in full 'Great Wife' regalia or performing the rituals of one with that title, but any woman shown weaing a Nubian lappet wig could be anyone.
Posted by Mansamusa (Member # 22474) on :
quote:Originally posted by Antalas:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [qb] The only way it can be established if KV21B is Nefertiti is if her genome correlates with being the daughter of Aye and thus grandaughter of Yuya and Thuya as well as being a niece of Tiye.
LOL @ the variation in reconstructions of the KV35 Younger Lady.
There is a high probability that's not Nefertiti but it doesn't change the fact the reconstruction is legit and represent a family member.
Also I don't think we need any reconstruction, the bust of Nefertiti is already quite telling.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Meanwhile the KV21B reconstruction looks more similar to the surviving murals.
Since when is amarnian art realistic ?
I think they were going for this: Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: we can't just point to any random depiction of a royal woman as Nefertiti.
what about this
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
[/QB]
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
The first & third reconstruction reminds me of an actress whose Kaniwood soap is currently on Netflix Sons of the Califphate..
Rahama Ibrahim Sadau was born in Kaduna State, north-western Nigerian State
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Oh what a difference the non-metrics make.
Amazing minute frontal variances from essentially the same profile.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
pls del thx
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: what about this
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ That portrait was part of a talatat series showing Akhenaten and his wife being blessed by the Aten.
Here is another part showing Akhenaten
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: The first & third reconstruction reminds me of an actress whose Kaniwood soap is currently on Netflix Sons of the Califphate..
Rahama Ibrahim Sadau was born in Kaduna State, north-western Nigerian State
The Discovery reconstruction looks more like a modern Horn African woman.
As one past forum member of Somali descent once said back in 2005:
quote: While I was surfing the Discovery Channel site I bumped into a re-model of the of the queen Nefertiti face as it used to be. I nearly spat out tea over my keyboard!!!
To tell you he truth what I saw was an east-African woman with light complexion. I thought I was going to see a Semite or a more of a Latin looking woman. Excuse me for my ignorance, blame my school.
I say this because I am Somali and could say I know fair amount on Somali tradition from my mums side. Nefertiti has classic look of an east-African woman with those elongated nose and oval shape head and skeletal features and large eyes. These are the features which you would expect to see on Ethiopian and Somali more to the Somali side I may say. You wouldn't look twice if she walked in down town Mogadishu (Somalia).
These people of this world neither look like Nubian with jet black colour, afro hair and large noses, nor do they look like Semitic like Arabs.
By the way, I find it funny that you compare her to of all Nigerians a Hausa woman, considering the Hausa are Afroasiatic speakers.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
and still keeping in mind KV35YL may not be Nefertiti
DNA analysis did not yield enough data to make a definitive identification but confirmed she was a member of the Eighteenth Dynasty royal line. CT-scanning revealed she was about 45 at the time of her death; her left arm had been bent over her chest in the 'queenly' pose. The possible identification is based on her association with the mummy tentatively identified as Ankhesenamun. It is suggested that just as a mother and daughter (Tiye and the Younger Lady) were found lying together in KV35, the same was true of these mummies.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Soft tissue features like nose tip and lip thickness can only be guessed at based on presumed ethnicity and/or portraits of the deceased.
That said, the 2004 Discovery Channel reconstruction was done by forensic experts who were double-blinded not knowing who the skull belonged to, possibly even a murder victim. From what I've read, based on the skeletal features the team guessed the person to be of East/Northeast African descent hence the soft tissue features. The skin coloring was then added by a native Egyptian working for Discovery.
Ironically the most recent reconstruction was done by the Travel Channel (a subsidiary of Discovery) by a team who knew the skull belonged to Nefertiti hence their bias played a huge part in the reconstruction.
Hell, this reconstruction from Reddit looks more accurate (not to mention better looking):
(The one on the right's head is tilted up a little so the position is not perfect for comparison)
The one on the right has much bigger ears that the other two The left and middle quite similar. Eyes a little bigger on the left and lips wider
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Yes, due to the variation in features it's probable that those two busts are not of the same person. That's why I'm very hesitant to call any Amarna portrait of a royal lady as "Nefertiti" unless she has the regalia of a queen or is shown commencing the rituals a queen would alongside her king. The DNA test results of the KV35YL has revealed the existence of a royal lady not known before, I'm sure she's not the only one as royal families tended to be large especially considering the practice of polygyny.
Even with the Berlin Bust or other depictions of Akhenaten's queen there still remains a question as to whether all of them depict Nefertiti since since there is a question to the exact timing of the end of her tenure/life and whether she had a replacement upon her death. Unless of course the bust or portrait has her name marked, there is no way to be sure.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Even with the Berlin Bust or other depictions of Akhenaten's queen there still remains a question as to whether all of them depict Nefertiti since since there is a question to the exact timing of the end of her tenure/life and whether she had a replacement upon her death. Unless of course the bust or portrait has her name marked, there is no way to be sure.
That is a valid point to consider. Unless there was some hieroglyphic signature on that famous bust, how do we know it depicts Nefertiti?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Yes, due to the variation in features it's probable that those two busts are not of the same person.
I disagree. I think the variation in features is not much The depictions all fall under "realistic human" and are similar looking enough to be the same person The item at right is this, the standing figure of Nefertiti with the cap crown below This is considered her at around age 40. Other sculptures of her could have been depicting her younger Similarly above, it is be believable that the famous colored bust is 10 years older than the one on the left
This type does not fall under "realistic human" the shape of the head is more like an animal. The way the nose angle seems to keep going back into the forehead. Side views of eyes are not front views. There is far too much horizontal distance between the chin and neck No actual human being looks like this, the protrusion of the whole face is snout-like like a lioness or dog. It is more like an unrealistic cartoon.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ There may be a few certain exaggerated features such as for example, the thinness of the neck, but the facial profile is very realistic as I have seen a few Horn Africans who match that profile exactly!
As for the variation in portraiture being made for one person, yes that's possible but again you have to take into account Nefertiti was not the only royal lady in the court.
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: That is a valid point to consider. Unless there was some hieroglyphic signature on that famous bust, how do we know it depicts Nefertiti?
Precisely my point! The problem with the Amarna dynasty is that most of the records for that family were deliberately destroyed (perhaps out disdain for heresy?). The few surviving records we give a very hazy picture at best which is why the traditional dates for the reign of Akhenaten and his wife Nefertiti are 1351–1334 BC or 1353–1336 BC. There's no telling when exactly Akhenaten or Nefertiti died. For all we know Nefertiti could have died and then succeeded by another as queen and vice-versa-- Akhenaten passing and succeeded by another king (Smenkhare?). While Nefertiti was Akhenaten's chief wife, there were others besides her. For example, the records mention a mysterious Kiya who served as Tut's royal wet nurse and for a while was thought to be his own mother until the KV35 proved otherwise. So we have Nefertiti, Kiya, and now some unknown royal who was not only Tut's mother but the full blooded sister of Tut's father. I already made a thread in the past citing a now defunct website showing genetically why Tut's father, KV55 can't be Akhenaten but instead a very close male relative of his. So how many male portraits are those of Akhenaten vs. some other relative?
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Yatunde Lisa: The first & third reconstruction reminds me of an actress whose Kaniwood soap is currently on Netflix Sons of the Califphate..
Rahama Ibrahim Sadau was born in Kaduna State, north-western Nigerian State
The Discovery reconstruction looks more like a modern Horn African woman.
As one past forum member of Somali descent once said back in 2005:
quote: While I was surfing the Discovery Channel site I bumped into a re-model of the of the queen Nefertiti face as it used to be. I nearly spat out tea over my keyboard!!!
To tell you he truth what I saw was an east-African woman with light complexion. I thought I was going to see a Semite or a more of a Latin looking woman. Excuse me for my ignorance, blame my school.
I say this because I am Somali and could say I know fair amount on Somali tradition from my mums side. Nefertiti has classic look of an east-African woman with those elongated nose and oval shape head and skeletal features and large eyes. These are the features which you would expect to see on Ethiopian and Somali more to the Somali side I may say. You wouldn't look twice if she walked in down town Mogadishu (Somalia).
These people of this world neither look like Nubian with jet black colour, afro hair and large noses, nor do they look like Semitic like Arabs.
By the way, I find very close it funny that you compare her to of all Nigerians a Hausa woman, considering the Hausa are Afroasiatic speakers.
I think she is Fulani... and some fulani look very close to Horn/Ethiopian/Somali, so like pastorialsts everywhere have adopted the language of the settled Hausa population... see J in Bronze age Levant...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_bdtm5TayA The Fulani Girl buja Nigeria. She looks like anyone from Ethiopia. 491 views • Jun 8, 2021 • The Fulani Girl I meet in 2009 Abuja Nigeria. She looks like anyone from Ethiopia. Are Fulani related to Ethiopians?
Not to take away from Somali ancient egypt connections but Somali romanticism can stop people from acknowledging nile valley connections to ethnic groups from West and West central Africa..and please remember some Somali have recent Arab admixture...
And those of us with Fulani heritage in the Diaspora..
Posted by Thereal (Member # 22452) on :
Not to take away from Somali ancient egypt connections but Somali romanticism can stop people from acknowledging nile valley connections to ethnic groups from West and West central Africa..and please remember some Somali have recent Arab admixture...
With who? Sense Arabs are a cultural group and what was the timeframe?
And those of us with Fulani heritage in the Diaspora..
Are you saying Somalis mixed with Funali or Arabs mixed with Fulani?
I can't confirm or deny those ladies in pic look more inline with what some folks think Ethiopians/Somalis like,but they do come off less stereotypical of a protected West African phenotype.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Unfortunately Egypt has been removed from Africa for so long and attached to "Near East" or "Mediterranean" entities, that any ties to Somalis may be welcomed. That said I think Egypt's ties to Somalis if not physical then cultural seem closer via Afroasiatic speakers. Of course, the relations to Beja and northern Sudanese are closest. The Hausa are Afroasiatic speakers as well and there are cultural linguistic ties. As for Fulani, though they speak Niger-Congo languages they have ancient ties to the Sahara that may connect to Egypt in some way.
Posted by Yatunde Lisa (Member # 22253) on :
Pastorilists tend to adopt languages... Pul, Fula may have adopted Niger Congo... I am sure Somalia is connected to ancient Egypt... but that does not diminish other groups connection to ancient Egypt.. Egypt has been removed from Africa by Eurocentrist and racist egyptologist...
But by studying different West African groups and their own oral histories, cultures and folk ways those connections and ties are there... for those who are looking and want to make the connections for those who don't they won't look because they don't want those connections to be made Schrodinger's cat and all that..
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
We'll need more aDNA samples from ancient Egypt to see which African groups they would be most closely related to. I suspect the majority of their African ancestry is going to be local to northeastern Africa (i.e. something like "Basal Eurasian" or ANA), but they might have at least a little admixture from southern Sudanic Nilotes as well as maybe an Omotic-like population. However, I would not rule out some ancestry being shared between Nile Valley and West African populations via the Green Sahara, especially since we know the latter have some ANA ancestry.
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
