posted 17 April 2005 06:28 AM            

I nearly spat out tea over my keyboard!!!

To tell you he truth what i saw was an east-african women with light complection. I tought i was going to see a symaptic or a more of a latin looking women. Excuse me for my egnorance, blame my school.

i say this because i am somali and could say i know fair amount on somali tradition from my mums side. Nefertiti has classic look of an east-african woman with those elongated nose and oval shape head and scalatel features and large eyes. These are the features which you would expect to see on Ethiopian and somali more to the somali side i may hasen. You would't look twice if she walked in down town mogadishu (somalia).

these people of this world neather look like nubian with jet black colour, afro hair and large noses. nor do they look like symatics like arabs.

so people here is my quiestions,

1. is there any connection between ancient egypt and this region of the world(east-africa)?

2. And if she did look like that why is conception that she looked symatic or looked eropean?

and post your opinion.

posted 17 April 2005 01:59 PM            

sorry.....

posted 17 April 2005 02:34 PM            

She looks egyptian, not east african.

posted 17 April 2005 03:02 PM            

There is some debate about Nefertiti's parentage. Possibly she might have been a little more mixed than the other Egyptians because many scholars have pointed to either an Aegean[Minoan] or even Syrian origin for her mother Pey. Her father was Ay and she was related to Tiy. Both came from the Upper Egyptian area of Akhmin.

As far as the dyansty of 17th and 18th there was a possible Nubian or Beja connection to these dyansties. Most of the people in this lineage came from Luxor-Aswan area where people still today in Egypt look much like Somalis.

The mummy in question has not really been proven to be Nefertiti but probably still did belong to the royal line of the 17th-18th dyansty pharaohs. The fact of the reconstruction looking like a modern Somali is not really suprising. The Beja people in modern Sudan are believed by many early ethnologist to be the composite of the pre-dyanstic Egyptians.

When we say Eastern Africa lets also consider that there are more than just Somalis,Oromo,or Amharan people. There are also tribes like the Nilotic types like the Omo,Luo,and Massai.

posted 17 April 2005 03:09 PM            

any scientists have re modeled her face using her skull using the latest techonliges available.

posted 17 April 2005 03:15 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by COBRA:
BARBARIAN BERBER that bust is fake any way. no body knows where it was located and exactly what period it was made.

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Well, it is true that the Berlin Bust has no inscriptions and it looks different than other portraits of Nefertiti, though it hasn't been proven to be a fake.

Here is an actual inscribed portrait of Neferiti and her daughter:

Here is her daughter:

posted 17 April 2005 03:22 PM            

who cares...ok lets take it that bust was true and that was realy how Nefertiti looked like.

and what?? what are you impling??

posted 17 April 2005 03:36 PM            

The point being that regardless of the mummy being Nefertiti it's still a royal mummy from the 17th and 18th dyansty which had Southern Upper Egyptian origins.

These dyansties also had Beja connections.

posted 17 April 2005 04:02 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by BARBARIAN BERBER:
A bust made by the people who saw Nefertiti:

She looks egyptian, not east african.

[This message has been edited by BARBARIAN BERBER (edited 17 April 2005).]

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posted 18 April 2005 06:31 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by dahlak:
You are stupid and dumb, have you ever been in egypt???? there are people look like east african. She do look like her.

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posted 18 April 2005 12:08 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
She is obviously egyptian, not nubian or east african. I think that one has been put to rest.

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posted 18 April 2005 12:10 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by HERU:
huh?

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posted 18 April 2005 09:38 PM            

quote:

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nubia is differnt to abysisinia.

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Yeah,but remeber the Egyptians never called the area south of the first cataract Nubia but various names including Ta-seti,Wawat,irtjet,setjau,Yam,and Kush.

The Arabs often called the Beja people Abyssinians.

posted 23 May 2005 04:59 AM            

I am Soomaali (Somali) and this character known as Nefertiti does indeed look like the average Somali woman. To illustrate a bit, here a sample of Somali women, including the so-called professional model ones going first:

A professional model by the name of Yasmin Warsame.

Another model named Waris Dirie

And of course Iman.

Now the other non-models, average ones from Somali diaspora on a Somali site:

[img]http://www.somalilife.com/modules/FriendFinder/images/xubnaha/5883.jpg[/img

And this lady from Somalia:

posted 23 May 2005 08:04 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Doug M:
The only problem with the berlin bust is that there is nothing that directly connects it to Nefertiti. But even if it was a depiction of some sort, that does not change the fact that 98% of the surviving depictions of Nefertiti portray her as brown skinned with big lips. Now you can call it artistic liscense or whatever you want, but how can you choose to focus on 2% of the evidence and ignore the other 98% and claim to be accurate? I think the whole idea of the ancient Egyptians being East Africans is very misleading. It implies that the native population of Egypt had to import its black features from elsewhere. False. If you go to Egypt today you will see many people (of all complexions) who have the exact same phenotype and appearance of the images in the hieroglyphics. These people match the images better than any "Eastern African" because they are the same people. There is and always has been a substantial native brown African population in Egypt that is distinct, albeit related to the other Africans populations around it. No need to go to East Africa for that.

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Agree, though we shouldn't forget that Egypt is a part of East Africa. Perhaps you want to say, no need to go elsewhere in East Africa.

Nefertiti.

posted 23 May 2005 08:52 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
The bust in Berlin must be a secret fraud snuck in by rich westerners to steal African heritage.

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If so, they should demand their money back.

posted 23 May 2005 09:29 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
Lets see if that holds up rasol. I think we both know the answer to that.

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posted 23 May 2005 09:43 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
It hasn't held up for 5 minutes.

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Then tell Hawass to stop squirming: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001979.html

posted 23 May 2005 09:56 AM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I didn't read that article as squirmming.

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posted 23 May 2005 07:50 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
AE royals were north africa caucasians. That issue has been settled for years.

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Boy you have a sick mind! I have been reviewing all of the "Hot" topics and all you have added are empty, baseless statements with no factual proof or anything scholastic to back them up.

It is a mental illness to hold on to a claim amidst overwelming proof of the opposite, which you are a perfect example.

posted 23 May 2005 11:58 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
AE royals were north africa caucasians. That issue has been settled for years.

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WRONG,i disagree with your comments,but it is true that some were white and some were brown and many others were black but it depends on the period,but the first egyptians were black africans and many were unmixed until the medieval period.this has been settled for years.
see i am being nice to you this time.

posted 24 May 2005 01:24 AM            

Welcome to everyone new here. I am an egyptian, i visit egypt every once in a while, and i can tell you that ppl of egypt are not white (the only white population is mostly the rich folks in the big cities, they are mostly from the elite class.) Egyptians are diverse and range from light brown to dark black, brown meaning mullauto and black meaning they look east African(They can come in all shades because of the mixing). And seriously if u travel around egypt u see this diversity. In every city u pass through the population is diverse. Egyptians u see in the States dont represant the average egyptian. Most egyptians in US are mostly from Ciaro or Alex. and are from the elite class.

Horemhebb, why on earth do u think u can use such a name, u are not egyptian, just an ignorant white redneck. You watched to many Disney movies, u are closed minded and think just because ur white u are supreame OVER THE PPL ON THIS FORUM. From most of ur posts u seem racist from ur point of views. First u never give reason why you are right and second u have never been to Egypt so stop defining the people as if u seen them. Once u go to egypt u will come to see how ignorant u are.

AE started out as a Black civilization, if u were to ask most egyptians they know that already. You will find those ignorant ones but these ppl have no knowledge of the AE.

Now from all the invasions that occured, Ppl came and ppl went, intermarriges brought diversity. During ottoman times more elite ppl came to live in Egpyt from turkey, syria, etc... They lived but did not mix with population, these ppl only married ppl of thier status and color.

[This message has been edited by multisphinx (edited 24 May 2005).]

posted 24 May 2005 05:14 AM            

quote:

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Horemhebb, why on earth do u think u can use such a name, u are not egyptian, just an ignorant white redneck. You watched to many Disney movies, u are closed minded and think just because ur white u are supreame OVER THE PPL ON THIS FORUM.

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posted 24 May 2005 06:00 AM            

Early pharoahs:

Snefru: http://www.khm.at/system2E.html?/staticE/page1517.html http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/cairo_museum_04.html
Userkaf: http://www.clevelandart.org/Explore/departmentWork.asp?level=2&deptgroup=9&recNo=1 5&display=
Pepi: http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/cairo_museum_21.html
Other portraits from old kingdom: http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/4d.htm http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/3d.htm http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/6d.htm http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/12d.htm
And coming forward: [URL=http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk/compass/ixbin/hixclient.exe?_IXDB_=compass&_IXFIRST_=1&_IXMAXHITS_=1&_IXSPFX_=graphical/full/&$+with+all_unique_id_index+is+$=OBJ4095&submit- button=summary]http://www.thebritishmuseum.ac.uk[/URL]
http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/portraiture/18d.htm http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/louvre_museum/louvre_museum_frame.html http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/hidden_treasures/hidden_treasures_index.html http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/saqqara_tombs/saqqara_tombs_index.html http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/luxor_museum/luxor_museum_frame.html http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/seti_abydos_index.html http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/ramesses_abydos_index.html http://www.osirisnet.net/e_centra.htm http://www.egyptarchive.co.uk/html/book_of_the_dead_index.html

Anyway, even though the evidence has been split up and distributed all over the earth, if you go and look at the remaining portraits of the kings from the earliest dynasties onwards, you will see that the Dynastic Egyptians consistently portrayed themselves with brown skin and quite often possessed quite distinct features like big lips and noses. Many times however the Egyptologists often hand pick those pieces that they want to use as representative portraits of specific individuals. Of the many statues and portraits that have survived, there are many that are either unpainted or without paint and this is what often times gives others basis to claim that there is no CONCLUSIVE evidence of what color the Egyptians were. However, if you walk into any tomb from Dynastic Egypt, you will find that they are covered, floor to ceiling and front to back with images of Egyptians as brown skinned and distinctly African. Often these images are hardly ever presented in mainstream media. Most often the mainstream media will choose to show the half colored, uncolored or ambiguous statues or portraits and claim that as the basis of evidence for determining the way the Egyptians looked. Take any pharoah, Ramesses, Tut, Akhnaten, Nefertiti and so forth and look at ALL of the remaining depictions of them and you will find that they are quite consistent in their portrayal of the Egyptians as being brown skinned. The other way that some have chosen to misrepresent the evidence is by saying that the Egyptians were painted red-brown, more red than brown. The fact is that most of the paintings in the tombs that are well preserved (without human restoration, which presents other problems) show the Egyptians as brown. Often you see that over time, the brown paint decomposes into reddish tones. However, rather than stating that fact of the chemistry of the paint used, some try to imply that this reddish tone is therefore an attempt to represent a sun-burnt population or a symbolic color, not really depicting the Egyptians as they looked. But in the same breath, they will take an unpainted or the rare light colored portrait of Egyptians and say "See, this strikingly beautiful piece so wonderfully depicts the skin tone and complexion of the Egyptians". Therein you can see the overt bias in the interpretation of the evidence. I leave it to you to look at the evidence for yourselves, and let your own eyes make a decision.

posted 24 May 2005 10:04 AM            

When Europeans 1st came across the wonders of Nile Valley Civilisation, they were struck by the African appearance of many of the monuments, and portraitures.

To think that to a race of black men....we owe our arts, sciences, and the very use of speech. - Count Volney 1821

The first tribes that inhabited Egypt, that is, the Nile Valley between the Syene cataract and the sea, came from Abyssinia to Sennar. The ancient Egyptians belonged to a race quite similar to the Kennous or Barabras [Beja], present inhabitants of Nubia. - Champollion 1839

posted 24 May 2005 10:48 AM            

From the earlier "yellow" toned to the later browner beauties from the New Kingdom.

I must say Somali women are very beautiful, thank you for posting this.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Waryaa:
Hello there, folks.

I am Soomaali (Somali) and this character known as Nefertiti does indeed look like the average Somali woman. To illustrate a bit, here a sample of Somali women, including the so-called professional model ones going first:

A professional model by the name of Yasmin Warsame.

Another model named Waris Dirie

And of course Iman.

Now the other non-models, average ones from Somali diaspora on a Somali site:

[img]http://www.somalilife.com/modules/FriendFinder/images/xubnaha/5883.jpg[/img

And this lady from Somalia:

Somali girls in their old traditional garments

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posted 24 May 2005 11:06 AM            

2.The Arabian peninsula whether via Sinai or the Red Sea is one of the main routes some scholars believe modern humans used to get out of Africa and colonize the rest of the world.

3.The semitic language seemed to began in the Horn of Africa and spread to the Arabian peninsula via immigration.

4.Plus in less remote times I believe Axum did conquer Yemen.

So yes indeed, I agree wholeheartly, they do look like arabs. Or more accurately (from a biological and cultural point of view)the Arabs resemble them.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
look like arabs to me.

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posted 24 May 2005 11:48 AM            

Department of Anatomy, Tohoku University School of Medicine, Sendai, Japan.

Major findings are as follows:

1) Australians show closer similarities to African populations than to Melanesians.

2) Recent Europeans align with East Asians, and early West Asians resemble Africans.

3) The Asian population complex with regional difference between northern and southern members is manifest.

4) Clinal variations of craniofacial features can be detected in the Afro-European region on the one hand, and Australasian and East Asian region on the other hand.

5) The craniofacial variations of major geographical groups are not necessarily consistent with their geographical distribution pattern.

This may be a sign that the evolutionary divergence in craniofacial shape among recent populations of different geographical areas is of a highly limited degree.

posted 24 May 2005 12:12 PM            

The term "black african" and its many defintions and connotations did not exist until a few centuries ago and I'm quite sure the people who it was applied to didn't term or define themselves by it.

And even the groups that created, used and applied it could not come to a consensus and argued over its defination and who they applied it to.

Blood is red though it is blue when not exposed to our atmosphere. So yeah you're right there's no way they could have "black blood", they and every other creature on the planet.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
The ladies shown above are not black African, thats for sure. Doesn't look like they have a drop of black blood.

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posted 24 May 2005 12:22 PM            

quote:

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Originally posted by kovert, the one and only:
Horemheb once again, you're on point. I agree with you 100%. Those ladies are not black Africans and they don't look like they have ANY black blood.

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AND

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
The ladies shown above are not black African, thats for sure. Doesn't look like they have a drop of black blood.

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posted 24 May 2005 12:32 PM            

He's still sore over the righteous beat down multisphinx put on him.

One of the ladies shown above is Somali fashion model - Iman

From her autobiography:

I am beautiful because I am black and I am Somali

Ironically, or perhaps fittingly, Iman herself has portrayed Nefertiti.

* ps - when Horemheb goes into his pansy-yanker mode, don't argue with him, just USE him. it frustrates him even more and then he shuts up.

posted 24 May 2005 01:29 PM            

Those people are Somalian. One thing you might not know,Horemheb, or others is that Arabs don't conform to just one look. Places like Oman,Saudi Arabia,Kuwait,and other Gulf countries have people who many times look like modern African Americans. Some even look like Western Africans. People should realize that the Arabian peninsula has served as a migration point for voluntary and unvoluntary purposes.

Places like Yemen have always had populations that were non-Arabic like the Mahra. These are the original people of the Arabian peninsula. Plus you had movements of Semetic speakers coming from the Horn of Africa into parts of Yemen.

In the modern sense many people are considered Arabic only because its their main language and because they are in the Arab league. Northern Africans are not really Arabs but everybody sees them as Arabs.

I would describe Arabs like the Borgs on Star Trek. People who move into certain non-Arabic places like Northern Africa,and then transform them gradually into Arabic people.

Some areas in Northern Africa do have a strong ethnic component of Arabs like Libya,Tunisa,and Northern Egypt. Arabs have gradually moved into these areas either intermingling or displacing the original populations. The Beni Hilal and Bani Sulaiym tribes were brought into Egypt by the Fatimids and then later kicked into parts of Northern Africa where they drove the original inhabitants of Libyan into the mountains or further southward.