posted 30 May 2005 07:18 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Super car:
You still haven't answered my question, which was, are you suggesting that all Cushitic speakers and Semetic speakers of the African horn are the product of admixture?

---

Super Car,
A population that has been exposed to Non African people genetically, will show some sign of admixture in their hair and skin texture. Which we can observe among many Ethiopians, Somalis and Nubians. It's one of the reason many postings from some people of that region emphasize the fact that their people are uniformly brown. But the average non mixed African skin vary greatly from very dark to very light. However many tribes, actually the majority, in the Horn of Africa still do have the same skin tone as the average Africans, this is especially true among the Oromos, Somalis, and even more among the Afars and the Boranas. But Tigres, Amharas, Rashaidas will show more foreign admixture in their skin tone. The following link will show you that Amharas have non african genes, whereas Oromos have less and Boranas from Kenya (the original Oromos who are still nomadic people) don't have non African genes, by the way I don't know why people make a big deal about Somalis or Oromos having a high amount of E3b genes, obviously the Boranas are really the group of people who have the highest amount of this haplogroup. But the problem with genetics experts is that sometime their research can be flawed because they have vague information about the local cultures. Here is the link: http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf

Relaxx

posted 30 May 2005 07:25 PM            

And that has been my point to you that you seem not to have grasped. In strictly scientific terms--there is no "true" or "real" Africans. Africa is a vast environment consisting of diverse flora and fauna(including humans).

There's something that geneticists call "clinal variation" that explains perciptible and impercetible shifts in Africa's population over its vast expanses. Just as "genetic drift", "assorted matings" in time, environmental and climatic effects have produced the specific hair types of the East Asians and Europeans--microscopically the cross sections of the hair strands look different--so too there must have been transition forms of hair trans-environmentally between these 2 groups, so too genetic drift would do the same in Africa with regard to curliness of hair, height, colour, and body type

So it is an intellectual error to assume that skin colours, hair curliness, height, nasal forms, etc. that appear to be "intermediate"(whatever that means--or does it mean anything?) are automatically the result of hybridisation. Only mtDNA and Y-chromosome tests can answer that question.

Question for you: do you believe that West Africans of heights that are intermediate between the Dinkas of Sudan and the Twa( so-called "pygmies") are varying mixtures of these 2 groups?

posted 30 May 2005 07:40 PM            

As any racial interaction can show, its offspring will be the proof. As I wrote earlier, if Somalis came as a result of intermarriage with Arabs, they might possibly have looked like Bajuuni I demonstrated.

Somalis may differ in some ways, but there is no way in this world did they come on as a result of inbreeding. This is how Somalis differ:

This guy is a minister in the transitional government.

Speaker of Paliament.

Trasitional Somali president.

Somali PM.

A parliament MP.

posted 30 May 2005 08:08 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:

Super Car,
A population that has been exposed to Non African people genetically, will show some sign of admixture in their hair and skin texture. Which we can observe among many Ethiopians, Somalis and Nubians. It's one of the reason many postings from some people of that region emphasize the fact that their people are uniformly brown. But the average non mixed African skin vary greatly from very dark to very light. However many tribes, actually the majority, in the Horn of Africa still do have the same skin tone as the average Africans, this is especially true among the Oromos, Somalis, and even more among the Afars and the Boranas. But Tigres, Amharas, Rashaidas will show more foreign admixture in their skin tone. The following link will show you that Amharas have non african genes, whereas Oromos have less and Boranas from Kenya (the original Oromos who are still nomadic people) don't have non African genes, by the way I don't know why people make a big deal about Somalis or Oromos having a high amount of E3b genes, obviously the Boranas are really the group of people who have the highest amount of this haplogroup. But the problem with genetics experts is that sometime their research can be flawed because they have vague information about the local cultures. Here is the link: http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf

Relaxx

---

quote:

---

Originally posted by kenndo:

The other groups maybe from the horn of africa mention above more so have some form of non african element on average but the nubians less so becauuse they tend to marry within themselves more so than the others and many of the nubians in egypt have some form of mixture because of various reasons but most nubians in the sudan intermarry more so within thier own groups on average and were more isolated as well than the average and most nubians of the sudan are unmixed blacks.of course the sudan is not in the horn of africa and most blacks in the sudan are unmixed.

---

posted 30 May 2005 08:35 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Relaxx

And that has been my point to you that you seem not to have grasped. In strictly scientific terms--there is no "true" or "real" Africans. Africa is a vast environment consisting of diverse flora and fauna(including humans).

There's something that geneticists call "clinal variation" that explains perciptible and impercetible shifts in Africa's population over its vast expanses. [b]Just as "genetic drift", "assorted matings" in time, environmental and climatic effects have produced the specific hair types of the East Asians and Europeans--microscopically the cross sections of the hair strands look different--so too there must have been transition forms of hair trans-environmentally between these 2 groups, so too genetic drift would do the same in Africa with regard to curliness of hair, height, colour, and body type

So it is an intellectual error to assume that skin colours, hair curliness, height, nasal forms, etc. that appear to be "intermediate"(whatever that means--or does it mean anything?) are automatically the result of hybridisation. Only mtDNA and Y-chromosome tests can answer that question.

Question for you: do you believe that West Africans of heights that are intermediate between the Dinkas of Sudan and the Twa( so-called "pygmies") are varying mixtures of these 2 groups?

Some posters on this site actually believe something like that.[/B]

---

The following link show you that many tribes in the horn of Africa have foreign admixture compared to other Africans...please open the link: http://www.familytreedna.com/pdf/hape3b.pdf

posted 30 May 2005 08:41 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Relaxx

And that has been my point to you that you seem not to have grasped. In strictly scientific terms--there is no "true" or "real" Africans. Africa is a vast environment consisting of diverse flora and fauna(including humans).

There's something that geneticists call "clinal variation" that explains perciptible and impercetible shifts in Africa's population over its vast expanses. [b]Just as "genetic drift", "assorted matings" in time, environmental and climatic effects have produced the specific hair types of the East Asians and Europeans--microscopically the cross sections of the hair strands look different--so too there must have been transition forms of hair trans-environmentally between these 2 groups, so too genetic drift would do the same in Africa with regard to curliness of hair, height, colour, and body type

So it is an intellectual error to assume that skin colours, hair curliness, height, nasal forms, etc. that appear to be "intermediate"(whatever that means--or does it mean anything?) are automatically the result of hybridisation. Only mtDNA and Y-chromosome tests can answer that question.

Question for you: do you believe that West Africans of heights that are intermediate between the Dinkas of Sudan and the Twa( so-called "pygmies") are varying mixtures of these 2 groups?

Some posters on this site actually believe something like that.[/B]

---

Lamin,
It's not a question of height or nose shape...I was talking about the skin tone. As an example here are Tutsis, they don't have any foreign genes, meaning non African genes, however their phenotype is no different from people of the Horn of Africa, except that their skin tone and hair is similar to other Africans:

posted 30 May 2005 09:34 PM            

Also, the Tutsi vary in skin-color too, your black in white photos tend to disguise that fact.

The Somali and Tutsi are both African groups related via the PN-2 clade.

There are central and southern African who have greater frquencies of non-african lineage, but who look more 'stereotypically' African than either the Tutsi or Somali.

It's the stereotypes that are flawed and without scientific foundation, but sometimes people are reluxctant to let go of them. You will discover this as you continue researching African genetics.

posted 31 May 2005 02:39 AM            

No serious scientific analysis talks of "skin tone"--that's just casual folk talk. Have you seen the papers on the relatively significant intra-African varibility when it comes to pigmentation indices?

You are also trapped in the assumption that somehow Africa is a natural island and that there is some real genetic basis for talking of "African" vs. "non-African" lineages.

In fact logic would tell us that that the Arabian peninsula is part of the East African geographical complex as much as Sri Lanka is part of India or that Britain is part of Western Europe.

If 10% of East Africans have lineages that derive from the Arabian peninsula that is no more remarkable than that 10% of British people have recent lineages that derive from Normandy in France--as a result of the Norman invasions.

posted 31 May 2005 05:03 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
Relaxx: I'm glad you are discovering genetics and if you continue your research you will find that you can't use haplotypes to 'explain' differences in phenotype, esp within Africa.

Also, the Tutsi vary in skin-color too, your black in white photos tend to disguise that fact.

The Somali and Tutsi are both African groups related via the PN-2 clade.

There are central and southern African who have greater frquencies of non-african lineage, but who look more 'stereotypically' African than either the Tutsi or Somali.

It's the stereotypes that are flawed and without scientific foundation, but sometimes people are reluxctant to let go of them. You will discover this as you continue researching African genetics.

[This message has been edited by rasol (edited 30 May 2005).]

---

posted 31 May 2005 05:09 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Relaxx

No serious scientific analysis talks of "skin tone"--that's just casual folk talk. Have you seen the papers on the relatively significant intra-African varibility when it comes to pigmentation indices?

You are also trapped in the assumption that somehow Africa is a natural island and that there is some real genetic basis for talking of "African" vs. "non-African" lineages.

In fact logic would tell us that that the Arabian peninsula is part of the East African geographical complex as much as Sri Lanka is part of India or that Britain is part of Western Europe.

If 10% of East Africans have lineages that derive from the Arabian peninsula that is no more remarkable than that 10% of British people have recent lineages that derive from Normandy in France--as a result of the Norman invasions.

Somehow I get the impression that you don't want to believe that the variable African environment--desert, forest, savanah, high elevations(Ethiopia, Kenya), tropical and subtropical ecologies(much of South Africa is outside the Tropic of Capricorn--explaining perhaps why many South Africans are yellowish in colour)--can produce variable phenotypical traits--including as you put it "skin tone"--whatever that is.

---

posted 31 May 2005 11:13 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:
Rasol,
You are right, Tutsis vary in colors from dark to very light as other Africans, that's my point.
Relaxx

---

You are trying to use genetics without even the most elementary understanding of what you are talking about, in order to try and justify anecdotal, subjective, observations which have no scientific value or merit.

posted 31 May 2005 05:00 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Relaxx

You talk of "North East Africans" and their skin tones as reflective of "admixtures". You are right modern Egyptians of the Delta and Cairo area are the only "North East Africans" that are on the map of Africa. Sure many of them have some Turkish, Roman, Greek, Persian and other ancestries. That probably explains why they have the "skin tone" (is this really serious language or just idle women at a beauty shop yapping?) of mulattos.

---

posted 31 May 2005 05:11 PM            

* btw: notice that Somalia is NOT significantly different in ave. skin tone from the rest of tropical Africa - ----

posted 31 May 2005 10:48 PM            

We know the Amhara have more West Asian admixture in terms of "J" Y chromosome than the Oromo, because we've discussed this before.

We also know that the Lemba have substantial West Asian Lineage.

We've discussed this in-depth and in threads properly dedicated to the subject [as opposed to Nefertiti].

You are reposting information and links that I, Supercar, Thought, S. Mohammad, TopDog and others have discussed before, as if you're 'informing us' of something new.

It's only new to you, and frankly, you are only scratching the surface of understanding, and misconstruing quite a bit in an evident earch for faux-justification of some earlier unsubstaniated remarks.

For more information, please review the following threads on E3b:

E3b and the Nile Valley: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001100.html

E3b in Ethiopia: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001832.html

E3b and the Berbers:
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001783.html
http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum8/HTML/001029.html

posted 01 June 2005 05:02 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Relaxx

Puzzled as to why you don't seem to focus on Y haplotype R that is even more prevalent in West Central Africa than is J in East Africa. In fact, the Arabian Peninsula Y infusions to the East African Horn seem no more than about 12%--based on visual calculations. Do I determine some kind of puzzling fixation here on the supposed peculiarities of the people resident there?

---

Well this is a pattern I observe especially among people of the Horn of Africa...like this brown thing...I might offend some people...but except the Sans, you will never find non mixed African people who are uniformally brown...among non mixed Africans, there are dark skinned people, light skinned people, and tones between dark and light, but without foreign admixture like in Cap Verde, some parts of Eastern Africa, Dominican Republic, Madagascar,Guadeloupe, Martinique and other places, you can't find people uniformally brown. But I think the same people who view themselves as brown realize when they mingle with other nationalities that mixed people have the same skin tone....
Relaxx.

----------------------
Relaxx, Rasol,
Having mingled a lot with so called "Sub-Saharan" Africans, it's always intriguing to see people like in Madagascar or some part of Ethiopia or Somalia who have some foreign ancestry because you are not used to that. So I was just digging to find out where it came from, and I guess that's my right.
Relaxx.

posted 01 June 2005 08:41 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:
To: Relaxx
Do I determine some kind of puzzling fixation here on the supposed peculiarities of the people resident there?

---

posted 01 June 2005 02:11 PM            

This guy is a minister in the transitional government.

Speaker of Paliament.

Trasitional Somali president.

Somali PM.

A parliament MP.

Former Somali president.

posted 01 June 2005 02:45 PM            

Tupac

posted 01 June 2005 03:59 PM            

quote:

---

Cobra says:

Its plain to see East-Africa is clearly different!! Especially the Kushties!!!

---

Different from what, and how?!! That guy looks like an ordinary black man like here in the US!!!

quote:

---

Speaker of Paliament.

Tupac

---

ROTFL

posted 01 June 2005 04:04 PM            

I know you are proud of your Somali people but let's face it, you cannot seperate yourselves from other black Africans!!...

(By the way, your features are not unique to Cushitic peoples of East Africa)

A West African from Nigeria with his daughter

More West African men

..Your attemtpts to do so are just as ridiculous as Germans trying to seperate themselves from other white Europeans, or Japanese trying to seperate themselves from other asians-- it's impossible!!!

Why not be like Iman? "I am beautiful because I am black and I am Somali"

posted 01 June 2005 05:31 PM            

No, they are surely Somalis, but again many Somalis mix married with Arabs.

posted 01 June 2005 05:40 PM            

She came from Nigeria when her papa Kono bongo mumbosa tekali.

They settled in Ekhmeem trading their baboons with ancient Egyptian PC spare parts..

In the year 123rd of his reign, the king of kings Akh- n-aton married that African priestess, and lived ever happily.

Historic fact, but still being debated.Believe me..!

posted 01 June 2005 05:49 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by COBRA:
[B]Hi rasol. How you been doing?

---

Fine thanks.

quote:

---

in the next two weeks i am getting ready to make a new topic.

---

The suspense is almost too much to bear.

quote:

---

And i think its going to provoke a lot of people.

---

quote:

---

Including you i hope.

---

posted 01 June 2005 05:55 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by rasol:
This is the real question, genetics seems a mere pretext, and an unconvincing one at that.

---

posted 01 June 2005 05:59 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by lamin:

To: Relaxx
Sorry, but I have to admit, in all honesty, that I just couldn't understand what you are trying to say.

But let me ask a question: do you have the same questions about the very evident variation of hair colour, eye colour, hair texture, etc. among the people of Europe?

---

posted 01 June 2005 06:05 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Horemheb:
[B]look like arabs to me.

No, they are surely Somalis, but again many Somalis mix married with Arabs.

Generally, Somali women are known to be nice looking. Some of my students are Somali, some of them ( men or women are very pretty, some are not ).
Iman, the Somali former Model looks very different from what she looked when young girl recently discovered, even her mother looks very different. I wonder if the cosmo knife of LA played a role in that change?

---

posted 01 June 2005 06:09 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:


O, wise people of Egypt. Your Beautiful powerful queen Neffer-nefferu-titi is not really an Egyptian as you believed her to be.

She came from Nigeria when her papa Kono bongo mumbosa tekali.

They settled in Ekhmeem trading their baboons with ancient Egyptian PC spare parts..

In the year 123rd of his reign, the king of kings Akh- n-aton married that African priestess, and lived ever happily.

Historic fact, but still being debated.Believe me..!

[This message has been edited by salama (edited 01 June 2005).]

---

Salama,
Personally I don't care whether Nefertiti was Swedish, however you sound a little bit racist toward other Africans, I mean real Africans. Am I correct?
Relaxx.

posted 01 June 2005 06:32 PM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Horemheb:
[B]look like arabs to me.

Iman, the Somali former Model looks very different from what she looked when young girl recently discovered, even her mother looks very different. I wonder if the cosmo knife of LA played a role in that change?

---

so either you knew iman when she was young or you saw a picture of her when she was young...which one
if saw care to show me how iman looked like when she was young....i can see that you seem to be hating....iman is pure she doesn't need to go under the knife to look like a really somalia women

posted 01 June 2005 06:54 PM            

quote:

---

O, wise people of Egypt. Your Beautiful powerful queen Neffer-nefferu-titi is not really an Egyptian as you believed her to be.

She came from Nigeria when her papa Kono bongo mumbosa tekali.

They settled in Ekhmeem trading their baboons with ancient Egyptian PC spare parts..

In the year 123rd of his reign, the king of kings Akh- n-aton married that African priestess, and lived ever happily.

Historic fact, but still being debated.Believe me..!

---

Actually, there is still some possibility that Nefertiti did have some foreign lineage. We don't really know who her mother was,and its possible Pey was a Syrian. Some have even suggested that Neferiti could have been a Minoan. We don't really know this much because most of ancient Egyptian history is speculation anyway. Nothing is concrete.

posted 01 June 2005 07:26 PM            

You are better off telling us more about your Irish heritage!! LOL

posted 02 June 2005 01:54 AM            

quote:

---

I know you are proud of your Somali people but let's face it, you cannot seperate yourselves from other black Africans!!

---

One more last time: We are SOOMAALI. We don't give a $#%&@ what others think of us. We are proud to be Somali, first and foremost, a nation with rich history. Down the street on foreign lands, people know instantly who is Somali and who isn't. Even a crazy guy the other day on the street of my city--Toronto--upon asking me few spare changes knew I was Somali, greeting me few Somali greeting he learned from another Somali who helped him.

posted 02 June 2005 02:14 AM            

NEW YORK: New York's newest fashion face, model Iman, a 20-year-old, 5/10, regally striking Somali tribeswoman, launches her modeling career here during press conference 10/15 following her arrival from Kenya via London. She's wearing a sari-like sheath of brightly patterned chiffon with her black hair coiffed high off her forehead and the ivory tusks of a warthog joined with silver around her neck. She was discovered by noted jet-set personality and photographer, Peter Beard.

posted 02 June 2005 03:38 AM            

Salama,
Between an Arab girl and a Somali girl, who is more beautiful?

The Egyptian girl.

posted 02 June 2005 03:45 AM            

In fact, Iman, looks very different from the time she and her dear went west.
Both ladies are somehow whiter, silky light hair- Blonde at times- and the mama got pale green coloured contacts.
No debating here, I have seen them both in person.
By the way, I do like Iman, she sharp, witty and knows how to make the best of her looks.

posted 02 June 2005 04:57 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by Waryaa:
One more last time: We are SOOMAALI. We don't give a $#%&@ what others think of us. We are proud to be Somali, first and foremost, a nation with rich history. Down the street on foreign lands, people know instantly who is Somali and who isn't. Even a crazy guy the other day on the street of my city--Toronto--upon asking me few spare changes knew I was Somali, greeting me few Somali greeting he learned from another Somali who helped him.

We don't belittle or downlook others, we just are Somali. Proud to be one. Is that a problem because the rest of other Africans or other Arabs don't look like us? Well, that isn't our problem. We came this world like this, and surely we will depart looking upon like this. Thank you.

---

posted 02 June 2005 05:01 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by relaxx:

Salama,
Between an Arab girl and a Somali girl, who is more beautiful?

The Egyptian girl.

---

posted 02 June 2005 09:08 AM            

quote:

---

Originally posted by relaxx:
Not true 35,000,000 Oromos, 2,000,000 Afars maybe just 7 million Somalis, and I forgot many more in Eastern Africa. Just do the math and don't dream...and you're not the purer compare to the Oromos and Afars and other Eastern Africa, you know that...Yemen all over your face... You're not alone
Relaxx

---

there are more then 7 million somalis in this world about 10-15 million of them.....second all somalis are not from yemen...you will not see a somalia person that looks like a really yemen....they are somalis....the hell with this yemen.shid..somalis didn't change to a yemen with a drop of yemen blood.one drop is nothing it is like a rain drop falling on the ground it won't cover up the whole ground..just a spot...same goes for the yemen blood it is just a drop.i won't confuse a somali person for a eritreas or ethipoians....maybe oromas. i believe to be pure...black and african....so yemen is not all over my face...totally mistaken relaxx...you seem to be so into the whole east african thing.we are just like the other africans......but just too damn proud of what we are.for that i see alot of people that say somalis think they are better then the other africans.they look down at as....this and that blah blah.when did been proud and having pride of what you are became a crime.

posted 02 June 2005 11:32 AM            

quote:

---

second all somalis are not from yemen...you will not see a somalia person that looks like a really yemen.

---

Somali male and female ancestry is East African in origin, over 75% of Somali are of E3b1 gamma Y chromosome lineage. E3b1 gamma is not found in Yemen, neither is E3b father of E3b1 and also essentially exclusive to Africa. Therefore the Somali are of East African origin. Trolls and idiots notwithstanding.