For anyone who likes colorful and beautiful pictures of ancient ships I can recommend "Ships of the Pharaohs: 4000 Years of Egyptian Shipbuilding" by Björn Landström- The book is quite old now (from 1970) so the level of knowledge has increased since then and new findings have been made, but still this book is a feast for the eye.
I wonder if the author has any association with Thor Heyerdahl of the Ra Expedition.
Also, Egyptian ship building goes far older than 4000 years.
Prdynastic rock art from the Eastern Desert:
Sabu-Jaddi, Lower Nubia
Also look up the Abydos Boats Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
The author was present during at least some phase in the building of the first Ra ship. Seems he did not always agreed with Heyerdahls theories.
quote: Ships of the Pharaohs; 4000 Years of Egyptian Shipbuilding (1970) appeared on the same year the Norwegian anthropologist Thor Heyerdahl constructed two boats of papyrus reeds, Ra I and Ra II, to cross the South Atlantic. Heyerdahl had contacted Landströn before his journey, and mentions his contribution to the desing Ra I in his book Ra ekspedisjonen (1970). He met Landström in Egypt, where Landström drew a sketch for his papyrus boat, but he was very critical about Heyerdahl's theories and knowledge of ancient ships.
The Abydos boats were not known when Landström wrote his book in 1970.
I do not have the book here right now, but I will check, when I have access to it again, which are the earliest boats he mentions. It is more than 50 years since it was written so there will of course be new discoveries and research since then.
Still a beautiful book. Landström made all the illustrations himself, he was a skilled artist.
Landström also wrote books about early explorers at sea, about other types of ships and about Columbus travels. Those are also well illustrated with his own drawings and paintings.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
In his book Landström among many other ships and boats describes the Punt expeditions both of pharaoh Sahure and queen Hatchepsut.
Many years later, in 2008, a replica of one of Hatchepsuts ships was built. It was named Nim of the Desert and was feautured in the BBC documentary The Pharaoh Who Conquered the Sea.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: here is a British Museum produced book:
Egyptian Boats By Dilwyn Jones By Samy Salah 1981
Nice one, thank you for posting. Something to read in the winter evenings.
I see they even have some illustration from Landströms book (illustration # 50).
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The author was present during at least some phase in the building of the first Ra ship. Seems he did not always agreed with Heyerdahls theories.
Isn't Thor Heyerdahl the guy who tried crossing the Atlantic in a papyrus boat comparable to those used by the ancient Egyptians? Would be interesting to see if other people could try to replicate his results. It wouldn't necessarily prove by itself that Egyptians or other Africans did make trans-Atlantic voyages in pre-Columbian times, but it would be a test of how seaworthy Bronze Age ships would have been.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: Isn't Thor Heyerdahl the guy who tried crossing the Atlantic in a papyrus boat comparable to those used by the ancient Egyptians? Would be interesting to see if other people could try to replicate his results. It wouldn't necessarily prove by itself that Egyptians or other Africans did make trans-Atlantic voyages in pre-Columbian times, but it would be a test of how seaworthy Bronze Age ships would have been.
Heyerdahl tried first with Ra I but he had to abandon the boat east of Barbados. So he built one more boat and made some changes and the second time he succeeded to reach Barbados after 57 days at sea.
Ra I was built in Egypt but started it´s journey from Morocco.
Ra II also started from Morocco.
Ra II is today preserved in the Kon Tiki museum in Norway.
His most famous expedition is perhaps the Kon-Tiki expedition where he sailed a balsa wood raft from Callao in Peru to Raroia in Polynesia. It took 101 days.
^ Yes! I thought I remember Heyerdahl’ involved in a project reconstructing Noah's ark, so that was the Trigris Expedition.
Noah's Ark was a Reed Ship If we turn now to Thor Heyerdahl’s book "The Tigris Expedition" we find that a standard length for an ancient Sumerian reed ship known as a "ma-gur" was 120 gur or 300 gur. Now if we substitute the word "cubit" for "gur" we can see that the lengths were respectively 198ft and 495ft – so the Bible Ark was the same length as the standard Sumerian giant reed ship!
That the ship of Noah was a reed ship can be further confirmed by returning to the Sumerian legend of the flood when the God tells the man "Reed hut and walls listen, Tear down your house and build a ship." We should note that it was a reed house which was torn down to provide materials for building the ship. Reed houses still exist amongst the Marsh Arabs of the region today with giant cylindrical columns not unlike those used in the construction of the ship itself. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Tor Heyerdahl's expedition on the Ra-2 papyrus boat setting off from the Moroccan port Saffi to the Central American shore.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The BBC film The Pharaoh Who Conquered the Sea (2010)
quote: Over 3,000 years ago legend has it that Queen Hatshepsut, Egypt's first female pharaoh, sent a fleet of ships to the wonderful, distant land of Punt. A bas-relief in the temple where she is entombed in Luxor shows them bringing back extraordinary treasures. But did this expedition really happen? And if it did, where exactly is the land of Punt?
Drawing upon recent finds, archaeologist Cheryl Ward sets out to recreate the voyage in a full-size replica of one of these ancient ships, sailing it in the wake of Hatshepsut's fleet in search of the mythical land of Punt. A human adventure as well as a scientific challenge, the expedition proves that, contrary to popular belief, the ancient Egyptians had the necessary tools, science and techniques to sail the seas.
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ Yes! I thought I remember Heyerdahl’ involved in a project reconstructing Noah's ark, so that was the Trigris Expedition.
The main purpose with the Tigris expedition was to show trade connections between Mesopotamia, Indus valley culture and Egypt in ancient times. The expedition lasted five months. Tigris sailed under UN flag but had difficulties to sail freely because of all conflicts in the surrounding area. In a protest against the conflicts Heyerdahl finally burned Tigris outside Djibouti in april 1978.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The boat in that documentary was wobbling side to side and the hull dips down more at the middle. Is that ok for a sea voyage or is that design made for rivers?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: The boat in that documentary was wobbling side to side and the hull dips down more at the middle. Is that ok for a sea voyage or is that design made for rivers?
Hard to say. Maybe the ship type was originally made for rivers but were later adapted for sea faring.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Both Pharaoh Sahure and Queen Hatchepsut are known for sending expeditions to Punt. But many have discussed where the fabled country really was located.
Now also bird experts home into the discussions about the location of Punt:
quote: Science in Poland reports that depictions of secretary birds have been identified in the Temple of Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahari by Filip Taterka of the Polish Academy of Sciences. There are two images of the bird of prey, also known as Sagittarius serpentarius, on the walls of the temple’s upper Portico of Punt, among other images of ebony, gold, resins, ivory, leopards and leopard skins, cheetahs, and giraffes given to the Egyptians by the people of Punt.
quote: The new information offers a clue to where the so-called “Land of Punt” may have been located. In the past, scholars have suggested the mysterious place was in Africa or the Arabian Peninsula, but the secretary bird lives only in Africa.
^ Yes, Punt's African location was confirmed several times before in this forum here, here, and here.
But more to the topic, the tradition of ship building in Egypt and other parts of Africa has also been addressed before here.
Also, boats in Egypt weren't just regular vehicles of transport. Egyptian religion conceives of the gods traveling through the skies in celestial boats and that boats were also the vessels of deceased kings and ancestors. In Egyptian holydays of certain deities, the idols of those deities would be transported in ritual barques in public view.
gods traveling
funerary barques
holy festivals Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: [QB] Both Pharaoh Sahure and Queen Hatchepsut are known for sending expeditions to Punt. But many have discussed where the fabled country really was located.
Now also bird experts home into the discussions about the location of Punt:
quote: Science in Poland reports that depictions of secretary birds have been identified in the Temple of Hatshepsut at Deir el-Bahari by Filip Taterka of the Polish Academy of Sciences. There are two images of the bird of prey, also known as Sagittarius serpentarius, on the walls of the temple’s upper Portico of Punt, among other images of ebony, gold, resins, ivory, leopards and leopard skins, cheetahs, and giraffes given to the Egyptians by the people of Punt.
quote: The new information offers a clue to where the so-called “Land of Punt” may have been located. In the past, scholars have suggested the mysterious place was in Africa or the Arabian Peninsula, but the secretary bird lives only in Africa.
Secretarybirds occur throughout much of sub-Saharan Africa, with the exception of forested west Africa and the Horn of Africa [2], [4]. Their preferred habitat is grassland, dwarf shrubland, savanna, and open woodland; they avoid forest, thicket, dense woodland and rocky, mountainous or hilly areas
~Secretarybird Sagittarius serpentarius Population Trends and Ecology: Insights from South African Citizen Science Data, 2014
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Or perhaps the inspiration came from a common concept of protective crescent 'wands'?..
or both?..
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Secretarybirds occur throughout much of sub-Saharan Africa, with the exception of forested west Africa and the Horn of Africa [2], [4]. Their preferred habitat is grassland, dwarf shrubland, savanna, and open woodland; they avoid forest, thicket, dense woodland and rocky, mountainous or hilly areas
I don't see any contradiction "throughout much of sub-Saharan Africa, with the exception of forested west Africa and the Horn of Africa"
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ The range of the secretary bird clearly includes the Horn region, specifically Eritrea, northern Ethiopia. If you have a problem with that, take it up elsewhere.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
What is lioness even trying to point out? She has a pattern of quoting things without really explaining what her reason for citing them is. Sometimes you can guess what argument she's trying to make, other times... Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ^ The range of the secretary bird clearly includes the Horn region, specifically Eritrea, northern Ethiopia. If you have a problem with that, take it up elsewhere.
not a huge difference the point is the secretary bird covers huge areas in Africa. It doesn't do much to inform where Punt was in Africa only to exclude it from being outside of Africa
Also the distribution of this bird could have varied 4,000 years ago
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Kathryn A. Bard and Rodolfo Fattovich, 2018 $110 on Amazon (ouch)
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: What is lioness even trying to point out? She has a pattern of quoting things without really explaining what her reason for citing them is. Sometimes you can guess what argument she's trying to make, other times...
She is reviving her passive-aggressive trolling ways again. That itself I can tolerate/ignore, what I do find annoying however is this attempt at scrutinizing other posters' claims and statements as if she herself is impeccable. Remember the saying about glass houses. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
No, it's actually Djehuti are Brandon trolling. It starts with the the cowardly Brandon. Not having the balls to ask me why I posted a comment, instead summoning Djehuiti to do the confrontation
The comment was addressed to neither of you. You could have at least waited to see what Archeopteryx said about it.
A lot of my comments are just additional information added comments. One person might think it's relevant information others might think it's irrelevant.
If you are too chicken to ask me why I posted something don't ask people why I did, just be quiet
I looked up a journal article on this secretary bird. Anybody who goes out of their way to look up something should be applauded for making the effort regardless of if you disagree with the article or not. Stop trying to start trouble on something that is pure information with no comment If you think it's irrelevant information ignore it. If think it's wrong than go find another source and post. And first wait to see what the person says the post was in reply to. I wouldn't have any of this nonsense with Archeopteryx.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
It´s interesting what information one can get (and not get) from animal pictures in ancient Egypt, and from what one knows about the distribution of those animals. It can hopefully give us information about locations, but also about environment and environmental changes. Saw recently someone who wrote about eventually finding a hitherto unknown species of goose in ancient art.
So here he says at the top of the page "...,but the bottoms have been partially" leveled off so they can stand upright"
Do you now what the beginning of that sentence is and a little bit before it, what the context is ?
Also does his book have a lot of big color photos?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
I do not have the book here, but I will maybe visit my library after New Year and have a look.
I suppose he means that the boat models bottoms have been leveled off so they can stand upright on a plane surface.
It was a while since I read it but what I remember there are mostly drawings in the book, both full color drawings and sketches. And some smaller photos of boat models and similar.
I have another book of Landström here at home, "The quest for India" about ancient and early modern sea exploration and it is also drawings and paintings.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
In the Petrie Museums catalogue they also mention Landströms book in connection with a boat model from 9th Dynasty - 10th Dynasty.
quote: Object Category boats, models
Description Wooden model fishing boat with cords, oars, and several dividers or thwarts in the hull or body of the boat. The boat is shallow and not decorated. There is a detached sail and fishing net. The yard, mast and boom have not been traced.
Publications - Petrie, William Matthew Flinders, Sedment I, pl. XXVI.10. and p.7 - Landstrom, B., Ships of the Pharaohs
By the way Archeopteryx, do you know the main structural difference between a riverine boat and a marine boat?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Often the marine boat is rounder (or v-shaped) and deeper and often has some kind of keel while riverine boats mostly are more flat bottomed. Some sea going canoes have outriggers which makes them more stable.
It is believed that many of the ships used in Kublai Khans failed attempt to invade Japan 1284 were river boats, who were collected in a haste for the invasion, but were not really suitable for strong winds and waves at sea. It contributed to most of the fleet being lost in storms.
Yes, boat building is very old. Thus the first people in Australia may have come there by boat. Also the first people of the Americas is believed to have followed a coastal road.
There is a debate about when humans first arrived in Madagascar. Some say about 2000 years, while others think it can have happened already 10 000 years ago.
When it comes to actual boats we have a paddle from Star Carr in England that is around 10 000 years old. Maybe it was used to propel a skin boat. We also have the oldest log boat from Pesse in Holland which is about 9000 years old. Then we have the Dufuna canoe which you linked to.
About reed boats, they are still built in Iraq, Lake Chad, in Ethiopia and on Lake Titicaca. In old times they also existed in more places like Corfu, California and of course along the Nile.
When Thor Heyerdahl built his first reed boat, Ra I, he hired boat builders from Lake Chad. When he built his second reed boat, Ra II, he hired boat builders from Lake Titicaca in South America.
Where I live it is very popular to build replicas of ancient boats and ships, from log boats, to war canoes, to Viking ships, and also later ship types like cogs and Eastindiamen.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ You are correct! The motion of river torrents is different from that of tidal waves, so the shape of the hull effect stability. The Egyptians were known as the masters of the Nile though they were also known to have piloted the Mediterranean and Red Seas. The Phoenicians eventually took over the former, but the Egyptians still held many of the ports of the latter especially in the African side.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
There is one thing I wonder about ancient seafaring. I've heard and read that Bronze Age sailors preferred to stick to the coast instead of crossing the open sea when navigating. And that makes sense to me since a lot of these ships were oar-powered, and you can't have a crew of men row a vessel twenty-four hours a day without rest. But, if there were situations where they had to cross the open sea for several days on end, how would they get any rest?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
If they were enough men onboard they could row or paddle in turn. If weather is favorable maybe not all of them had to row at the same time.
Also Bronze age sailors in the Mediterranean, and Red Sea, already had sails during the Bronze age.
In Scandinavia and North West Europe probably the longest travels would have been out to the British Isles, where tin to make Bronze were fetched.
There also seem to have been trading across the Baltic Sea, but the distances there are not so overwhelming either. Islands like Öland and Gotland in the Baltic were for example inhabited already in the mesolithic.
Interesting are also the links between the Northern countries and he Meditteranean during the Bronze age. Egyptian beads of glass have been found in Danish bronze age tombs and Baltic amber has been found in Greece and Egypt. The copper in Scandinavian Bronze objects has been shown to come from places in Spain, Sardinia, Cyprus and Central Europe.
And in the Mediterranean itself trading took place between Egypt, Sardinia, Greek mainland and the Greek Islands, Cyprus and the Levant. The Uluburun wreckage is a good example with goods from all the mentioned places, and also from Northern Europe (amber). The wreckage is really an amazing time capsule from the 1300s BC.
It also included other African objects like Hippopotamus teeth, ivory, blackwood and ostrich eggshells. I wonder what the owners and tradesmen thought when they learned that the ship had sunk with all its precious cargo?
Landströms book is mentioned in the lecture in the video: "There is a wonderful book..."
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Archeopteryx is right again, concerning Brandon's question. Oar-rowing was the equivalent to a motor engine adding more forceful thrust, the vessels still had sails for wind power. Not to mention that there is growing evidence of a widespread Bronze Age trade network not dissimilar to our modern day global trade network. there was not only trade from the Mediterranean going into northern Europe but into Central Africa and the Horn via the Nile Valley, as well as far east as India and beyond.
As far as sailors hugging the coast, that may have an advantage as far as stopping for supplies and such, but that also put them at higher risk of attack from pirates, not to mention that the travel takes longer when not following a straight path. Ancient navigators were able to trace their paths by use of heavenly bodies, especially stars at night, along with wind patterns on certain seasons. This allowed ancient peoples to literally trace their path on the open ocean and in case of getting lost being able to return where they came from. This is why Norsemen and their predecessors were able to map out the both the Baltic and North Seas very early on the same way the Phoenicians and their predecessors the 'Sea Peoples' were able to map out the Mediterranean.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
To Archaeopterxy and others who are interested there's a website that provides an excellent concise and succinct summary on boat technology of Egypt. I think this site was posted in the other threads on Egyptian boats, but for the relevance of this thread here it is again:
We still haven't found all the Red Sea ports in Nubia let alone any of Punt yet, and we know of at least one port in Yemen that dates to the Sabaean kingdom but there could have been more ports along the Yemen and or the Hejaz. As I said, just as the Phoenicians took control of the Mediterranean sea, the Egyptians seemed to have cornered the Red Sea trade.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Boatbuilding scene, painted limestone relief from Thebes, Egypt, c. 664–634 BCE; in the Brooklyn Museum, New York.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
https://tinyurl.com/9xu6x35s Mastaba of Ty (Ti) , reed boats, hippopotamus hunting
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Archaeopterxy and others who are interested there's a website that provides an excellent concise and succinct summary on boat technology of Egypt. I think this site was posted in the other threads on Egyptian boats, but for the relevance of this thread here it is again: --
We still haven't found all the Red Sea ports in Nubia let alone any of Punt yet, and we know of at least one port in Yemen that dates to the Sabaean kingdom but there could have been more ports along the Yemen and or the Hejaz. As I said, just as the Phoenicians took control of the Mediterranean sea, the Egyptians seemed to have cornered the Red Sea trade.
Thanks for the interesting links. It will be my evening reading, with a cup of coffee in my lap Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
I really like the boat models with their figures of people and sometimes animals. They are so vivid and feels more intimate than the large monuments.
As this one. Here one can magnify the pictures and see all details including humans, fish and fowl.
A picture from another book by Björn Landström (The Quest for India) showing one of queen Hatchepsuts´ ships arriving at Punt
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
Nevermind the bollocks Hatshepsut left profuse record
quote:Originally posted by Yom:
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Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yom: ((Incense?) Tree in Punt
Fish from Red Sea on the way to Punt.
Broader view of above scenes.
Egyptian soldiers in Punt (peaceful, head of group is unarmed).
Another look.
Posted by Tukuler (Member # 19944) on :
quote:Originally posted by Yom: King & Queen reproduction in wall.
Broader view of scene (military contingent in lower right).
How Parahu & Aty (male & female ulers of Punt, respectively) fit in scene.
Puntite house.
Ostracon of Ramesside period representing Aty.
Animals of Punt (some domesticated, perhaps, like donkeys - suggested by Jacke Phillips).
Puntite landscape.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
In his book Landström describes the Punt expeditions both of pharaoh Sahure and queen Hatchepsut.
Many years later, in 2008, a replica of one of Hatchepsuts ships was built. It was named Nim of the Desert and was featured in the BBC documentary The Pharaoh Who Conquered the Sea.
I'll watch it when I have the time. But I think this is one topic of Egyptology that doesn't get covered much-- maritime rule of the Red Sea.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
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