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Author Topic: Africa: A continent of "Land-Lubbers" ??
Whatbox
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One of the next things I plan on investigating is Malian expiditions into the Atlantic... Clyde?
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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Please explain to me the lack of Egyptian contact
with other Africans along the Mediterranean shore
if they sailed that sea themselves.

And I would also like to know why they hired the
ancient Lebanese to do so much ship sailing stuff
for them if they were so adept at it themselves.

I mean I can't find any evidence of major trade
even between Egypt an Cyrenaica less lone Egypt
and Carthage. Am I looking in the wrong sources
(Heeren's more than a century old "trade" book)?

"why they hired the ancient Lebanese"

"ancient Lebanese" is that anything like ancient Iraqis, ancient Iranians, ancient Turks, ancient Europeans?

Funny - I never heard of any of them. Which book did you find it in?

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
All forum members

I'm not generalizing or anachronistically
flattening all eras into one dimension.

There are specific things I want to know
and no one has helped me to learn them.
I'm talking recorded trade (routes) not sociology.


1 - lack of contact with Mediterranean Africans
2 - hiring of Lebanese ships, shipping, and shippers
3 - primary documents of trade with
_____ Cyrenaica
_____ Tripolitania
_____ Tunisia
_____ Algeria
_____ Morocco


Please explain to me the lack of Egyptian contact
with other Africans along the Mediterranean shore
if they sailed that sea themselves.

And I would also like to know why they hired the
ancient Lebanese to do so much ship sailing stuff
for them if they were so adept at it themselves.

I mean I can't find any evidence of major trade
even between Egypt an Cyrenaica less lone Egypt
and Carthage. Am I looking in the wrong sources
(Heeren's more than a century old "trade"
book)?

Documented sources are thin on wide ranging AE
maritime expeditions in the sense you refer to.
Perhaps specialized academic sources might show
more but Time-Life has an older 1981 book out
called “The Ancient Mariners.” It doesn’t show
continent-spanning voyages by the AE’s like famous
Chinese Admiral Cheng Ho, but it does indicate that
there was extensive trade and contact throughout the
Eastern Mediterranean, and also into the Aegean and
the Persian Gulf.

There is little information on Northwest Africa in the
book or even on the web re direct Egyptian trade. Perhaps
the northwest region had to await expansion of
supply and demand, and better ships before it was
drawn more fully into overall Mediterranean commerce. The
Phonecian and Greek expansion, coming long after
Egyptian developments may have provided the
impetus. The rise of Carthage certainly boosted trade
in the Northwest area, not to mention the resources
of inland Africa drawn upon by that city state- for
trade or war (Hannibal's famous Numidian cavalry is
just one example).

As for documents, the book does mention papyrus
journals kept by AE merchants and or officials. One
documents a shipwreck in the Red Sea, another a
clash with pirates near Byblos. Carved inscriptions on
stone also record Egyptian vessels, trade and
movements, and clay models have been found in
Mesopotamia similar to Egyptian boats. There is
some documentary evidence suggesting that the
Egyptians bought entire vessels from Greek or
Lebanese (today’s terms) suppliers. In the Armana
letters for example, is a request from a pharoah to the King of
Alashiya (Cyprus) to build ships for the Egyptian
navy. However it should be noted that the Egyptians
built a large number of sea-going vessels themselves
during the New Kingdom, using imported lumber.

Most likely the pharoahs found it cheaper to simply
contract out a portion of their building program to
foreigner builders who had ample supplies of suitable
wood and workers in their native countries. It would
make perfect sense in a land where heavy forestation
for supplies of lumber were scarce.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/navy.htm

You are generally correct that the AEs stayed in the
eastern Mediterranean zone, compared to say the
Chinese, or even the Polynesian mariners, who in
their canoes, not only spanned massive areas of Pacific, but even
reached the frozen wastes of Antartica ( a Maori war
canoe according to the 1984 Encyclopedia Britannica
article ‘Antartica’).

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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Funny - I never heard of any of them. Which book did you find it in?

Ancient Lebanese is like saying ancient "Egyptian" or ancient Chinese, one of which you've typed on here, correct?

So why front?

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Djehuti
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Uh, getting back to the topic...

The ancient Greeks made it clear in their writings that the Egyptians were the first people in the world to build ships and seafare. This also reminds me of Hebrew/Biblical writings specifically in Genesis which state that Egypt produced the Caphtorim (Cretans) and another group of people called Caslohim which in turn produced the 1st generation of Philistines (as opposed to the 2nd generation of later Philistines who were a different people).

Takruri do you have any more info on this?

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Mike111
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^^^There WAS an ancient Egypt, there WAS an ancient China. There was NOT an ancient Lebanon; that country did not exist until 1943.
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alTakruri
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Not sure exactly what you're asking put start a
thread for it or find and continue a thread that's
dealt with it and we can take it from there.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Uh, getting back to the topic...

The ancient Greeks made it clear in their writings that the Egyptians were the first people in the world to build ships and seafare. This also reminds me of Hebrew/Biblical writings specifically in Genesis which state that Egypt produced the Caphtorim (Cretans) and another group of people called Caslohim which in turn produced the 1st generation of Philistines (as opposed to the 2nd generation of later Philistines who were a different people).

Takruri do you have any more info on this?


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alTakruri
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If you ever cracked open a history book you might be dangerous.
Until then, לְּבָנֹן for those who may want to know factual info
appears in the oldest of documents in Mesopotamia, the
Levant, and Egypt where it's transliterated as RMNN.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
^^^There WAS an ancient Egypt, there WAS an ancient China. There was NOT an ancient Lebanon; that country did not exist until 1943.


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Mike111
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^^^That's Veerryy impressive, Bamboozle them with Bullsh!t eh, nice, very nice. But the question was NOT לְּבָנֹן or RMNN, it was Lebanon.

If there is anyone out there that can read squiggly lines, does that say what I think it says, i.e. Dumb-asses, they have no clue that I am a homeboy in south central L.A.

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alTakruri
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Are really that ignorant of ancient languages that
you don't know what word לְּבָנֹן and RMNN are? Yes,
of course you're that ignorant, and worse.

How does one verify a quesionable ancient word? By
perusing ancient nomenclature in context within ancient
texts.

You've just admitted you're a pure dumbass farting
opinion unbacked by primary documentation hoping for
mass appeal by grandstanding for supposed fellow
ignoramuses rooting for a SCLA fakeass homeboy.

Not sorry to say, more is expected of you HERE.
And SCLA folk would whoop your ass for fronting
on them being nothing but stupid stereotypes.

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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
^^^There WAS an ancient Egypt, there WAS an ancient China. There was NOT an ancient Lebanon; that country did not exist until 1943.

Ancient "Chinese" didn't call themselves "Chinese" and as for Egypt, don't tell anyone but there was an entirely different state there.

In sincerity for those who don't know, TaWy/Kemet/Ta Mery =/= Arab Republic of Egypt.

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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Are really that ignorant of ancient languages that
you don't know what word לְּבָנֹן and RMNN are? Yes,
of course you're that ignorant, and worse.

How does one verify a quesionable ancient word? By
perusing ancient nomenclature in context within ancient
texts.

You've just admitted you're a pure dumbass farting
opinion unbacked by primary documentation hoping for
mass appeal by grandstanding for supposed fellow
ignoramuses rooting for a SCLA fakeass homeboy.

Not sorry to say, more is expected of you HERE.
And SCLA folk would whoop your ass for fronting
on them being nothing but stupid stereotypes.

WOW; What a mouthful! he he, but you still didn't answer the question. i.e. what word or words in the English language correlate with the squiggly lines לְּבָנֹן or RMNN, that mean the English word Lebanon, OR even translates back to an entity which corresponds to modern Lebanon.
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Djehuti
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Takruri, why do you even waste your time with this clown above?
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Not sure exactly what you're asking put start a
thread for it or find and continue a thread that's
dealt with it and we can take it from there.

Since you seem to be familiar with what Greek texts say about Africa and the Levant, I thought you would know which specific text by which author spoke of the first seafarers coming from Egypt.
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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Uh, getting back to the topic...

The ancient Greeks made it clear in their writings that the Egyptians were the first people in the world to build ships and seafare. This also reminds me of Hebrew/Biblical writings specifically in Genesis which state that Egypt produced the Caphtorim (Cretans) and another group of people called Caslohim which in turn produced the 1st generation of Philistines (as opposed to the 2nd generation of later Philistines who were a different people).

I don't think the Egyptians were the first to build
watercraft or use them on rivers, seas or oceans.
Such vessels were independently invented in a variety
of places. Dugout or reed canoes or rafts for example
have been around a long time. Old vessels too have
been found in Mesopotamia. The Greek writers of
course could only speak from their limited
experience.

As to the Genesis narrative, Mizraim (Egypt)
produced the Casluhim, out of whom came
the Caphorium and Phillistines. Casluhim would
be the forerunner of either Philistines or
Capthorim. Do you have any sources showing
the Capthorim to be linked to the Cretans or
Minoans? Or to the 2 generations of Philistines?
Was the second different from the first
produced by Mizraim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casluhim shows one
writer who links the forerunning Casluhim to
the Colchians of the Black Sea region.

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alTakruri
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That's for your dumb ass to figure out, masturbator.
Quit acting like JackOff-enbach and learn, baby learn.
Then you can be on the way to add something intelligent
to a discussion instead of fabricated from the crack
of your ass bullshit. Lebanon not existing until 1943, hah!
That's the stupidest **** you've posted to date, jink.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Are really that ignorant of ancient languages that
you don't know what word לְּבָנֹן and RMNN are? Yes,
of course you're that ignorant, and worse.

How does one verify a quesionable ancient word? By
perusing ancient nomenclature in context within ancient
texts.

You've just admitted you're a pure dumbass farting
opinion unbacked by primary documentation hoping for
mass appeal by grandstanding for supposed fellow
ignoramuses rooting for a SCLA fakeass homeboy.

Not sorry to say, more is expected of you HERE.
And SCLA folk would whoop your ass for fronting
on them being nothing but stupid stereotypes.

WOW; What a mouthful! he he, but you still didn't answer the question. i.e. what word or words in the English language correlate with the squiggly lines לְּבָנֹן or RMNN, that mean the English word Lebanon, OR even translates back to an entity which corresponds to modern Lebanon.

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alTakruri
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I dunno. The kid's got potential. If only he'd
stop jackin off and reserve his vitality for
mentality. Well, at least now I know why
he starts off half decent then goes half
cocked. It's true, masturbation damages
the brain!

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Takruri, why do you even waste your time with this clown above?


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Mike111
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Sticks, stones, and Mary Palmer; but I'm still waiting for לְּבָנֹן and RMNN.
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alTakruri
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And wait you will you, since you can't understand
what was already given to you. It's called primary
evidence from the language of the time, the people,
and the place itself. Once again and pay attention jr

If you ever cracked open a history book you might be dangerous.
Until then, לְּבָנֹן for those who may want to know factual info
appears in the oldest of documents in
1 - Mesopotamia,
2 - the Levant, and
3 - Egypt where it's transliterated as RMNN.

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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
And wait you will you, since you can't understand
what was already given to you. It's called primary
evidence from the language of the time, the people,
and the place itself. Once again and pay attention jr

If you ever cracked open a history book you might be dangerous.
Until then, [b]לְּבָנֹן [b]for those who may want to know factual info
appears in the oldest of documents in
1 - Mesopotamia,
2 - the Levant, and
3 - Egypt where it's transliterated as RMNN.

Sorry pal, but the ancient Mesopotamian's used cuneiform NOT the squiggly lines thing.

But for the sake of argument, if they did use the squiggly lines, What books would I find it in?

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alTakruri
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Now repeat after me.

Please Mr. al~Takruri,
teach me the ancient Assyrian script and lexicon
and the ancient Egyptian lexicon,
I'm sorry I said there's no ancient Lebanon
when I don't even know any ancient script or
any ancient language nor delved into any ancient
primary text for supportive material to back my
asinine false assertion nor can I even recognize
the word Lebanon in their own ancient Semitic language.
And on top of that I can't apply a multi-disciplinary
approach because I was too busy dating Rosy Palm to
apply myself to linguistics so I can't understand how
'l' & 'r' and 'b' & 'm' interchange from one language
to another as alveolars and bilabials respectively.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:

I don't think the Egyptians were the first to build watercraft or use them on rivers, seas or oceans. Such vessels were independently invented in a variety of places. Dugout or reed canoes or rafts for example have been around a long time. Old vessels too have been found in Mesopotamia. The Greek writers of course could only speak from their limited experience.

The Greeks never said the Egyptians were the first to build watercrafts in general but that they were the first to build large seafaring vessels. Of course this is all according to their lengeds.

quote:
As to the Genesis narrative, Mizraim (Egypt) produced the Casluhim, out of whom came
the Caphorium and Phillistines. Casluhim would
be the forerunner of either Philistines or
Capthorim. Do you have any sources showing
the Capthorim to be linked to the Cretans or
Minoans? Or to the 2 generations of Philistines?
Was the second different from the first
produced by Mizraim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casluhim shows one
writer who links the forerunning Casluhim to
the Colchians of the Black Sea region.

That's somewhat inaccurate. The Table of Nations specifically says that only the Philistim came from the Casluhim and that the Caphtorim came directly from Mizraim as Caphtorim did, making Caphtor and Caslum siblings.

Anyway, the reason why I point this out is that it not only verifies the Greek legends but that it also verifies the archaeological findings of Evans and others in Crete and in other parts of the Bronze Age southern Mediterranean that link them with Egypt. I'll have to cite a couple of books of read to show this.

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Now repeat after me.

Please Mr. al~Takruri,
teach me the ancient Assyrian script and lexicon
and the ancient Egyptian lexicon,
I'm sorry I said there's no ancient Lebanon
when I don't even know any ancient script or
any ancient language nor delved into any ancient
primary text for supportive material to back my
asinine false assertion nor can I even recognize
the word Lebanon in their own ancient Semitic language.
And on top of that I can't apply a multi-disciplinary
approach because I was too busy dating Rosy Palm to
apply myself to linguistics so I can't understand how
'l' & 'r' and 'b' & 'm' interchange from one language
to another as alveolars and bilabials respectively.

Sorry Takruri, but I doubt the moron knows anything about linguistics let alone phonetic shift theories such as Grimm's Law which states a shift in consonants like l to r and vice-versa.

Therefore it's not hard to see that RMNN/ R-M-N-N pronounced something like 'Remenan' could become 'Lebanon' in several thousand years.

And why is that Mike??

 -

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alTakruri
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Damn DJ, you're spoiling my cat and mouse fun.

But actually RMNN is how AEs wrote the foreign (to them) word לְּבָנֹן .

But a possibly associated in root meaning word, Libu,
did undergo the process you delineated. At least for
the first phoneme. I.e., Rebu became Libu became Libya.

quote:
Originally posted by Dj:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Now repeat after me.

Please Mr. al~Takruri,
teach me the ancient Assyrian script and lexicon
and the ancient Egyptian lexicon,
I'm sorry I said there's no ancient Lebanon
when I don't even know any ancient script or
any ancient language nor delved into any ancient
primary text for supportive material to back my
asinine false assertion nor can I even recognize
the word Lebanon in their own ancient Semitic language.
And on top of that I can't apply a multi-disciplinary
approach because I was too busy dating Rosy Palm to
apply myself to linguistics so I can't understand how
'l' & 'r' and 'b' & 'm' interchange from one language
to another as alveolars and bilabials respectively.

Sorry Takruri, but I doubt the moron knows anything about linguistics let alone phonetic shift theories such as Grimm's Law which states a shift in consonants like l to r and vice-versa.

Therefore it's not hard to see that RMNN/ R-M-N-N pronounced something like 'Remenan' could become 'Lebanon' in several thousand years.

And why is that Mike??

 -


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Mike111
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Sorry girls, you're not squirming out of it like that. The argument is NOT that there was a Lebanon, the Cedars of Lebanon, referring to Mount Lebanon, are well known in ancient text.

The great "SAGES" he he, quote was: "And I would also like to know why they hired the ancient Lebanese to do so much ship sailing stuff for them if they were so adept at it themselves".

That statement refers to a Lebanese PEOPLE, AS IN A NATION, get it?

But just in case you girls don't get it: There is a mount Everest, but no nation called Everest, now do you get it????

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Djehuti
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^ LOL @ the idiot's backtracking. Let's see how far that will get him... [Wink]
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Whatbox
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 -

^Another related thread.

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Whatbox
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
quote:

Pirogues are still made just out of town, by Bozo craftsman
... designs identical to that noted by Arab travelers in
the 12th century ... up to 20 meters (22 yards) long, very
stable, roofed with arching boughs covered with thatch ...

Marq de Villers, Sheila Hirtle
Into Africa: A Journey Through the Ancient Empires
Key Porter Books,1999
p. 257

From the research of Saidi_Aswan_Egy
I knew I saw that name on here before somewhere! (I've since the book)
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Mike111
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quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
^ LOL @ the idiot's backtracking. Let's see how far that will get him... [Wink]

You don't read very well, do you?? That explains a lot of things.
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alTakruri
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Recently uncapped whilst imbibing iced tea:

"Real Fact" #177
The first sailing boats were built in Egypt.
Get all the "Real Facts" at snapple.com

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alTakruri
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Gregory P. Gilbert

Ancient Egyptian Sea Power and the Origin of Maritime Forces

Australia: Sea Power Centre, 2008

P R E FAC E
Despite my early reservations that the extent of Ancient Egyptian sea power was already
widely known, it did not take long before I realised that what I have taken for granted
for some 25 years or so, was either doubted or denied by many scholars. Hopefully
this book will help to educate those who believed that sea power did not exist prior
to the introduction of specialist warships, and in the process it will encourage others
to look deeper into the many historical experiences that may have contributed to our
understanding of maritime strategy and sea power but that have tended to be overlooked
in the Western intellectual tradition.

I wish to express my sincere thanks and gratitude to Captain Richard McMillan, CSC,
RAN, Captain Peter Leavy, RAN, Dr David Stevens and the staff at the Sea Power
Centre –Australia (SPC-A) for their encouragement and support during the planning,
research and writing phases of this project. I am especially grateful to Andrea Argirides
whose interest in the Ancient Mediterranean helped to reinvigorate my efforts whenever
my own thought processes began to sag.

This work was extensively edited and prepared for publication by Andrew Forbes and
Michelle Lovi from the SPC-A, who deserve special credit for making sense of the final
product. Of course, all remaining errors and omissions are my own.

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alTakruri
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F O R E W O R D
. . . .
It is a truism that Egyptologists and naval historians do not often mix. Egyptologists
study the art, archaeology and history of Ancient Egypt. They often tend to believe in
Ancient Egypt as a specialisation that is significantly different from other regions of
study, that many of the philosophical developments within the art, archaeology and
history disciplines are commonly ignored, being classified as ‘not relevant to Ancient
Egypt’. The upshot of this is that much of the detailed information on Ancient Egypt
tends to remain in the hands of the Egyptologists, while public demand for all things
‘Egyptian’ has generated large numbers of popular books of varying quality, which by
their very nature do not contain the detailed information that support new discourses
on Ancient Egyptian history. This study aims to bring the relevant information on
Ancient Egyptian sea power together in a form that historians and naval professionals
should find interesting and informative. It is both a source book and a vehicle for new
models and interpretations for the origins of naval forces. It is hoped that in time naval
practitioners, naval historians and students of maritime affairs will appreciate the full
tapestry of Ancient Egyptian sea power. In future, Egyptologists, ancient historians or the
interested public may wish to make their own contribution to the better understanding
and the continued relevance of Ancient Egyptian sea power.

This study is the first step in a process that is intended to bring international thinking
on sea power to the fore. As such, the research is intended as a preliminary study of
the most readily available sources. It is not intended to be a comprehensive collection
of all references to Ancient Egyptian maritime activities, but rather the more obscure
sources have been put aside in favour of those that support the sea power message. The
resulting narrative interpretation is thus also evolving, and all constructive feedback
is most welcome. This study is somewhat like looking at a long coastline through
binoculars, while one may focus on one small landing place ashore, it should not be
inferred that the rest of the coastline does not exist. Sea power was just one aspect
within the multifaceted society that was Ancient Egypt.

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argyle104
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alTakruri, did you write that post with a tin cup in your other hand.


chaaaaange, chaaaaange, can you spare some change?


: )

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alTakruri
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Change is inevitable and a real man marks the
change when his horizons have been broadened.

quote:
This is a song about change, you see
We say many things about the changing aspects of our lives
We say that since change is inevitable, we should direct the change
Rather than simply continue to go through the change
We sing a song of revolution as change
To the brothers in the Caribbean and Africa,
Where I'm Coming from



Gil Scott-Heron


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alTakruri
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O U T L I N E
This study provides an overview of Ancient Egyptian sea power by examining the
written and archaeological evidence to develop an explanation for the origin of naval
forces. The applicability of sea power during the formation of the Egyptian state
is considered, as is the important contribution of naval forces to the rise of central
government and state building processes. Through examination of a broad range of
Egyptian cultural customs and beliefs it is possible to gain a deeper understanding
of maritime Egypt. As with modern naval forces, much of what is common practice at
sea is often left unsaid and unrecorded. The depth of the naval influence on a maritime
state is often visible within their image of themselves, their gods and their language.
Changes in Ancient Egyptian maritime technologies are also examined to understand
better the boat and ship capabilities used by the Ancient Egyptians. A review of the
maritime operations of the Ancient Egyptian naval forces follows. The modern concept
of a span of maritime operations, including military, diplomatic and constabulary, is
used to categorise and evaluate Ancient Egyptian operations. This section, along with
the associated listing contained in Appendix 1, reveals the extent and variety of the
evidence of the influence of sea power on Ancient Egyptian history. Despite a few minor
differences, a somewhat surprising degree of similarity may be observed between the
naval activities of the Ancient Egyptians and those undertaken by today’s navies. The
information evaluated will be used to form an interpretive model for the origin of naval
forces in Ancient Egypt.

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alTakruri
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P R E H I T O R I C
B O A T S
The earliest evidence for the use of boats in Ancient Egypt is circumstantial. Fish bones
found at the campsites of prehistoric hunter/gatherers include larger deep-water fish
that can only be caught by deep-water fishing in some form of boat.14 The earliest boats
were rafts made from papyrus reeds, similar to those depicted in later tomb scenes
depicting fishing and fowling. Temporary papyrus boats enabled hunter/gatherer
groups to travel across and along the river between seasonal camp sites. Egyptian
mythology often refers to the use of papyrus boats by the gods, during the ‘time of the
gods’ that is before the formation of the Egyptian state. Papyrus boats continued to be
used in Pharaonic times for fishing and fowling along the river, but they also retained
their religious symbolism as the craft used by the forces of order who entered the
wetlands to defeat the forces of chaos.

As the Egyptians adopted Neolithic lifeways (approximately 5500 BCE), including
the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry, they continued their reliance
on boats to utilise the resources of the Nile. It is likely that wooden boats were first
developed at this time, with sedentary villagers investing greater effort to construct
more permanent boats suitable for fishing, fowling and transportation. Later evidence
suggests that the earliest wooden boats were typically of a shell construction, that is
a combination of planks joined together with mortise-and-tenon joints and then sewn
together to form a keel-less hull.15 It is possible that some of the earliest Neolithic boats
were owned communally, with each plank being held by a member of the village when
not in use.16 Although there are a few simple models of boats dating to the Neolithic
period, it is with the rise of chiefdoms during the Egyptian Predynastic period (3700
to 3050 BCE) that there is evidence of widespread use of boats.

The Egyptian Predynastic period is characterised by numerous boat depictions,
including what appears to be a recurring maritime theme on rock art and decorated
pottery of that period.17 There are three types of boat depiction during the Egyptian
Predynastic period: the papyrus boat, the ceremonial boat and the war-canoe.18

Papyrus boats were still being built in Africa until recent times, in Lake Tana and
Chad, and their method of construction provides insight into their Ancient Egyptian
equivalents. Egyptian papyrus boats were constructed using dried papyrus plants (each
up to 5m high and 15cm thick at the base) bound together to form bundles, which were
then tied together to form the desired boat shape. The narrow ends would be raised and
tied back to form an upright bow and stern. While single papyrus bundles were used to
fish or cross the Nile, quite complex papyrus boats were also constructed by binding
multiple large papyrus bundles and could be up to 15m long and 3m wide.19

The ceremonial boats were most likely developed from the larger papyrus boats with
upturned ends, used for chiefly ceremonies and other ritual purposes. By the Egyptian
Predynastic period they had grown in size and hence a stronger wooden construction
was required, although they retained the basic shape of the original papyrus boat with
the raised bow and stern. Pharaonic models of divine barks and funerary barks clearly
show that the raised bow and stern form was retained.

War-canoes were most important from the viewpoint of the origin of naval forces and
ancient sea power. The Neolithic wooden boats grew in size during the Predynastic
period to accommodate larger crews. The resulting long thin boats developed into
war-canoes with two rows of paddlers, papyrus shelters, a steering oar, a standard and
typically a branch on the bow. They were constructed from two wooden side lengths
and a wooden bottom length made from thin planks sewn together. Such war-canoes
varied in length from approximately 15m for 20 oarsmen (small war-canoe), 27m for
52 oarsmen (large war-canoe), and 38m for 80 oarsmen (maximum crew size).20
It is also possible that sails
were used during most of the
Predynastic period, as diamond
shaped representations with
‘masts’ have of ten been
interpreted as temporary sails.
The earliest depiction of a sail
on a boat can be dated to the
end of the Predynastic period,
about 3050 BCE.

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alTakruri
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E G Y P T I A N
M A R I N E R S

A number of nobles’ titles are clearly of a maritime nature, especially those using one
or more hieroglyphs with a nautical origin. Some of the earliest titles from the Old
Kingdom and Middle Kingdoms are ‘commander of ships’, ‘ship’s captain’, ‘captain of
sailors’, ‘commander of sailors’ and ‘scribe of the marine’.50 During the New Kingdom
new titles appear, in addition to some of the earlier ones, ‘fleet captain’, ‘captain of the
ships of the king’, ‘captain of galleys’, ‘ship’s captain’, ‘captains of marines’ (literally
‘captain of the ship archers’), ‘officer of the ships’, ‘officer of marines’, ‘standard-bearer
of the ship’, ‘standard-bearer of the marines’, ‘commander of the rowers’, ‘chief of the
rowers’, ‘ship archers’, and many more. Non-seagoing titles, such as ‘harbour master’
and ‘ship-builder’, were also used.51 The broad extent of the titles used suggests that the
Ancient Egyptian maritime forces were commanded by trained and experienced marine
professionals. Scholars who believe that Egyptian sea power is frequently overstated,
and who prefer to see a Syrian source for East Mediterranean maritime activities, should
reflect upon the complexity and sophistication of the Egyptian Bronze Age forces in
comparison with their non-territorial state maritime neighbours.

For the New Kingdom period it is possible to reconstruct the organisation of the Egyptian
maritime forces.52 The sailors, uau, were under the leadership of a petty officer, perhaps
either the kherep-khenyt ‘chief of the rowers’, khery-khenyt ‘commander of the rowers’,
or the tay-seryt ‘standard-bearer’. The ‘ship’s captain’, the hery-wesekh but also known
by various other Egyptian terms, who was in charge of the crew and probably the ship
itself, would have been of a higher status than the sailors. Promotion of ‘ship’s captains’
were most likely to a more prestigious ship. A number of senior officials had higher
maritime commands like ‘chief of all the king’s ships’ or ‘chief of the broad ships of
the god’s estate’. Were these the admirals of the Ancient Egyptian maritime forces?

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alTakruri
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S E A G O I N G
S H I P S
While travelling boats were ideal for use along the Nile, they were limited in their
ability to navigate Egypt’s adjacent seas. Sea voyages put much higher demands upon a
vessel’s strength and seaworthiness. However, inter-regional trade did occur during the
Egyptian Predynastic period if not before. The presence of Syrian pottery, imported stone
tools and metals, and the remains of Lebanese cedar confirm the existence of maritime
trade links between Egyptian and Syrian communities well before the formation of
the Egyptian state around 3050 BCE.85 However, the earliest depictions of seagoing
ships that provide information on Ancient Egyptian ship technologies are dated to the
beginning of the 5th Dynasty during the Old Kingdom, c. 2500 BCE.

Fragmentary reliefs from King Sahura’s Temple depict a fleet of seagoing ships returning
from an expedition, while the number of Syrians onboard suggests the ships had sailed
the Mediterranean to Byblos or some other destination in Syria.86 Sahura’s ships were
over 17.5m long, 4m wide, with a draught of approximately 1m and an average plank
thickness of 10cm.87 The ships had either 14 or 16 oars for propulsion, six steering
oars, a bipod mast for a trapezoid sail and an anchor. There were at least four ships in
the fleet and each ship was crewed by approximately 20 people made up of Egyptians,
Syrians and perhaps other maritime peoples.88

... Sahura’s seagoing boats reveal the high level of sophistication of
early Egyptian ship construction techniques.

Old Kingdom records reveal that the earliest seagoing ships were referred to as
‘Byblos ships’. It is possible that the technical modifications were incorporated into
the standard design of the Egyptian river vessels after visiting Byblos and learning
their techniques, but it was equally as likely that the Egyptians modified their ships
themselves especially for the Byblos run. The records show that Byblos ships were
also used for travel in the Red Sea.91 As maritime communications between Egypt and
Byblos had already been strong for some time before the evidence of the seagoing ship,
it is most likely that the modifications were a combination of many smaller initiatives
adopted by mariners from both regions.

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alTakruri
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See Appendix 1 @

http://www.navy.gov.au/w/images/IntSP_1_Ancient_EgyptSP.pdf

See Appendix 1 for an extensive chart of more than 2600 years of AE maritime operations.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

The earliest evidence for the use of boats in Ancient Egypt is circumstantial. Fish bones
found at the campsites of prehistoric hunter/gatherers include larger deep-water fish
that can only be caught by deep-water fishing in some form of boat.14 The earliest boats
were rafts made from papyrus reeds, similar to those depicted in later tomb scenes
depicting fishing and fowling. Temporary papyrus boats enabled hunter/gatherer
groups to travel across and along the river between seasonal camp sites. Egyptian
mythology often refers to the use of papyrus boats by the gods, during the ‘time of the
gods’ that is before the formation of the Egyptian state. Papyrus boats continued to be
used in Pharaonic times for fishing and fowling along the river, but they also retained
their religious symbolism as the craft used by the forces of order who entered the
wetlands to defeat the forces of chaos.

As the Egyptians adopted Neolithic lifeways (approximately 5500 BCE), including
the introduction of agriculture and animal husbandry, they continued their reliance
on boats to utilise the resources of the Nile. It is likely that wooden boats were first
developed at this time, with sedentary villagers investing greater effort to construct
more permanent boats suitable for fishing, fowling and transportation. Later evidence
suggests that the earliest wooden boats were typically of a shell construction, that is
a combination of planks joined together with mortise-and-tenon joints and then sewn
together to form a keel-less hull.15 It is possible that some of the earliest Neolithic boats
were owned communally, with each plank being held by a member of the village when
not in use.16 Although there are a few simple models of boats dating to the Neolithic
period, it is with the rise of chiefdoms during the Egyptian Predynastic period (3700
to 3050 BCE) that there is evidence of widespread use of boats.

The Egyptian Predynastic period is characterised by numerous boat depictions,
including what appears to be a recurring maritime theme on rock art and decorated
pottery of that period.17 There are three types of boat depiction during the Egyptian
Predynastic period: the papyrus boat, the ceremonial boat and the war-canoe.18

Papyrus boats were still being built in Africa until recent times, in Lake Tana and
Chad, and their method of construction provides insight into their Ancient Egyptian
equivalents. Egyptian papyrus boats were constructed using dried papyrus plants (each
up to 5m high and 15cm thick at the base) bound together to form bundles, which were
then tied together to form the desired boat shape. The narrow ends would be raised and
tied back to form an upright bow and stern. While single papyrus bundles were used to
fish or cross the Nile, quite complex papyrus boats were also constructed by binding
multiple large papyrus bundles and could be up to 15m long and 3m wide.19

The ceremonial boats were most likely developed from the larger papyrus boats with
upturned ends, used for chiefly ceremonies and other ritual purposes. By the Egyptian
Predynastic period they had grown in size and hence a stronger wooden construction
was required, although they retained the basic shape of the original papyrus boat with
the raised bow and stern. Pharaonic models of divine barks and funerary barks clearly
show that the raised bow and stern form was retained.

War-canoes were most important from the viewpoint of the origin of naval forces and
ancient sea power. The Neolithic wooden boats grew in size during the Predynastic
period to accommodate larger crews. The resulting long thin boats developed into
war-canoes with two rows of paddlers, papyrus shelters, a steering oar, a standard and
typically a branch on the bow. They were constructed from two wooden side lengths
and a wooden bottom length made from thin planks sewn together. Such war-canoes
varied in length from approximately 15m for 20 oarsmen (small war-canoe), 27m for
52 oarsmen (large war-canoe), and 38m for 80 oarsmen (maximum crew size).20
It is also possible that sails
were used during most of the
Predynastic period, as diamond
shaped representations with
‘masts’ have of ten been
interpreted as temporary sails.
The earliest depiction of a sail
on a boat can be dated to the
end of the Predynastic period,
about 3050 BCE.

Great reference. SOme of the war canoes recorded deeper into the continent are as big as, or exceed the Egyptian example mentioned above. (African Military Systems- wiki).


Some canoes were 80 feet in length, carrying 100 men or more. Documents from 1506 for example, refer to war-canoes on the Sierra Leone river, carrying 120 men. Others refer to Guinea coast peoples using canoes of varying sizes- some 70 feet in length, 7-8 ft broad, with sharp pointed ends, rowing benches on the side, and quarter decks or focastles build of reeds, and miscellaneous facilities such as cooking hearths, and storage spaces for crew sleeping mats. [85] The warriors in some of these accounts were armed with spears, shields and arrows, and were expected to row as well. Each rower kept a bundle of throwing javelins and his shield next to him to repel enemy canoes.



 -


Nor were these simply tribal hordes sallying forth on dugouts, but systematically organized units for battle and logistics. In some empires, maritime assets were systematically organized into military and civil spheres.


"In war, the canoe performed an important logistics function. The empires of Mali and Songhay for example used canoes to move troops, horses and material quickly to many parts of the realm, as well as for trade and general transport. In Songhay, a Chief of the Waters oversaw all civil matters related to water transport, and a Chief of Canoes supervised naval operations. Big war canoes in this region drew a clear distinction between rowers, (usually 18 to 20) and marine troops (some 70-80 warriors). The boats were equipped with all the necessary provisions and supplies for their mission."



 -
Historical Great Lakes naval clash between 2 East African kingdoms


On the coasts of course, various other vessels and peoples engaged in trade etc from the Red Sea, to the Indian Ocean.

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zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
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quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
See Appendix 1 @

http://www.navy.gov.au/w/images/IntSP_1_Ancient_EgyptSP.pdf

See Appendix 1 for an extensive chart of more than 2600 years of AE maritime operations.

Good find this article.
The author has a section in there on the "Western way" and the argument that Western 'freedom' is linked with sea power. But the author questions it somewhat- noting that the imperialist regimes of Europe also used sea power to maintain their hegemony, not always as a means of generating "freedom or the so-called Western values of liberalism, democracy and capitalism."


========================================
http://www.navy.gov.au/w/images/IntSP_1_Ancient_EgyptSP.pdf

Sea Power and the Opening of the Western Mind
Many of today’s naval historians, brought up within a Western academic tradition, have
seen a link between the liberal democratic and capitalist traditions and the rise of sea
power. One widely renowned scholar has even suggested that maritime supremacy was
responsible for the development of today’s Western beliefs and systems of government,
‘the opening of the Western mind' and that the distinguishing mark of maritime power
is freedom.

"Both trade and consultative government require the widest dissemination
of information and free expression of opinion; thus the basic freedoms
of trade spread through all areas of life, tending to break down social
hierarchies and the grip of received ideas, creating more open, mobile and
enterprising cultures. Liberty has always been the pride and rallying cry of
powers enjoying maritime supremacy."35

Such thinking may be traced back to the seminal works in naval strategy written by
Alfred T. Mahan and Julian S. Corbett before the outbreak of World War I; at a time when
European maritime empires had spread across the globe.36 Using the British Empire
and Royal Navy as examples, these early naval strategists emphasised the importance
of commercial trade and sea communications toward achieving maritime supremacy.
Both however, contained underlying assumptions that Western liberal democratic
forms of government and free enterprise capitalist economies were both prerequisites
for becoming and remaining a global sea power. Other scholars have emphasised the
superiority of ‘independent supreme commanders, innovative soldiers and a sovereign
legislature’, over ‘rigid hierarchy and complete submission of the individual’.37 The
supposed superiority of the ‘Western way of war’ is more apparent than real.38

The advantage of using evidence of ancient history and archaeology is that it can extend
our comparative telescope over thousands of years instead of hundreds of years.
Over the previous pages it has become clear that the rise of Egypt was a very long
process, undertaken over thousands of years, characterised by increasing political
power, social complexity, economic organisation and trade, as well as increasingly
complex religious beliefs and other ideological factors. It is possible that increased
naval power did help the state formation process along the path towards an integrated
Egyptian territorial state. But what of the so-called Western institutions? Where are
the liberal democratic and capitalist traditions in Ancient Egypt?

Ancient Egyptian society was a formidable kingdom with a king exercising the power
of life and death over his subjects, and where a centralised bureaucracy controlled all
trading, economic and religious activities. In such a society there was little room for
liberal democratic and capitalist ideologies. However, Ancient Egyptian society was not
static. During the height of the Old, Middle and New Kingdoms, the royal power was
strongest; but during the three intermediate periods, actual royal power was weak and
there were effectively many warlords and small states within Egypt rather than a unified
Egyptian state. The actual extent of Egyptian sea power also fluctuated in association
with Egyptian royal power, and it will be possible to see how the characteristics of actual
Egyptian maritime operations changed over time when the evidence is examined later
in this book.

There is a noticeable trend in the rise of Ancient Egyptian sea power. The earliest
growth of Egyptian sea power occured during a period of relatively high individual
freedom and coincided with great advances in the arts, crafts, technology, language and
cultural identity. But Egyptian sea power remained quite strong after the formation of
the Egyptian state, even when the society was strongly centralised, bureaucratic and
authoritarian. If the rise of early modern European maritime states and their Western
liberal democratic and capitalist traditions are reconsidered, it is possible to see a
parallel development.40 The freedoms cherished by the early European mercantile
communities that precipitated the rise of global maritime empires gradually gave way
to more centralised maritime states, which used maritime and naval forces to generate
and maintain worldwide empires.41 Modern Western maritime states maintain powerful
forces that have the ability to exercise sea power across the globe, under centralised
and authoritarian command. Western sea powers – those nations with strong maritime
traditions – do not automatically generate freedom or the so-called Western values of
liberalism, democracy and capitalism. Rather, all societies, should consciously safeguard
the values that they most cherish.

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argyle104
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alTakruri

"Change?"


Well you need to change your deodorant, because you smell like rotten bunyons.


Did you get that smell from your people in the Sahel?

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Djehuti
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quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:

Great reference. Some of the war canoes recorded deeper into the continent are as big as, or exceed the Egyptian example mentioned above. (African Military Systems- wiki).


Some canoes were 80 feet in length, carrying 100 men or more. Documents from 1506 for example, refer to war-canoes on the Sierra Leone river, carrying 120 men. Others refer to Guinea coast peoples using canoes of varying sizes- some 70 feet in length, 7-8 ft broad, with sharp pointed ends, rowing benches on the side, and quarter decks or focastles build of reeds, and miscellaneous facilities such as cooking hearths, and storage spaces for crew sleeping mats. [85] The warriors in some of these accounts were armed with spears, shields and arrows, and were expected to row as well. Each rower kept a bundle of throwing javelins and his shield next to him to repel enemy canoes.



 -


Nor were these simply tribal hordes sallying forth on dugouts, but systematically organized units for battle and logistics. In some empires, maritime assets were systematically organized into military and civil spheres.


"In war, the canoe performed an important logistics function. The empires of Mali and Songhay for example used canoes to move troops, horses and material quickly to many parts of the realm, as well as for trade and general transport. In Songhay, a Chief of the Waters oversaw all civil matters related to water transport, and a Chief of Canoes supervised naval operations. Big war canoes in this region drew a clear distinction between rowers, (usually 18 to 20) and marine troops (some 70-80 warriors). The boats were equipped with all the necessary provisions and supplies for their mission."



 -
Historical Great Lakes naval clash between 2 East African kingdoms


On the coasts of course, various other vessels and peoples engaged in trade etc from the Red Sea, to the Indian Ocean.

Excellent snippet about the naval capablities of other Africans further south, Zaharan! It's info like this you don't hear much about.

Getting back to the Egyptians, I find it more than coincidence that the Israelite Book of Nations lists a couple of the earliest sea-faring nations to be of Egyptian origin and that ancient Greek stories such as the Argive legends say the Egyptians were the first to build and sail ships.

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alTakruri
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A little something on West African riverain war canoes
and sea power -

quote:


... African armies became aware of the
new dangers, and Portuguese ships began to meet their match.


For example, in 1446, two years later, a ship commanded by Nuno
Tristao attempted to land in the Senegal region. It was attacked
by African fighters in canoes, and the crew of the ship was
wiped out
. And in 1447, a Danish raider commanding a Portuguese
ship was killed, along with most of his crew,
when local African
boats attacked.

Although African vessels -- mostly canoes -- were not designed
for high-seas navigation, they were fully capable of protecting
the coast, even in the 15th century. As a result, in 1456, the
king of Portugal dispatched his ambassador, Diogo Gomes, to
negotiate treaties of peace and trade with the African rulers
along the coast. From that point on, and for 400 years, the
African slave trade was conducted as a matter of international
commerce among equals.


http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=004734#000015

- sea power made naval commanders elite because of
the connection between merchants, kings, and colonialism.


quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:
Great reference. SOme of the war canoes recorded deeper into the continent are as big as, or exceed the Egyptian example mentioned above. (African Military Systems- wiki).


Some canoes were 80 feet in length, carrying 100 men or more. Documents from 1506 for example, refer to war-canoes on the Sierra Leone river, carrying 120 men. Others refer to Guinea coast peoples using canoes of varying sizes- some 70 feet in length, 7-8 ft broad, with sharp pointed ends, rowing benches on the side, and quarter decks or focastles build of reeds, and miscellaneous facilities such as cooking hearths, and storage spaces for crew sleeping mats. [85] The warriors in some of these accounts were armed with spears, shields and arrows, and were expected to row as well. Each rower kept a bundle of throwing javelins and his shield next to him to repel enemy canoes.



 -


Nor were these simply tribal hordes sallying forth on dugouts, but systematically organized units for battle and logistics. In some empires, maritime assets were systematically organized into military and civil spheres.


"In war, the canoe performed an important logistics function. The empires of Mali and Songhay for example used canoes to move troops, horses and material quickly to many parts of the realm, as well as for trade and general transport. In Songhay, a Chief of the Waters oversaw all civil matters related to water transport, and a Chief of Canoes supervised naval operations. Big war canoes in this region drew a clear distinction between rowers, (usually 18 to 20) and marine troops (some 70-80 warriors). The boats were equipped with all the necessary provisions and supplies for their mission."



 -
Historical Great Lakes naval clash between 2 East African kingdoms


On the coasts of course, various other vessels and peoples engaged in trade etc from the Red Sea, to the Indian Ocean.


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Doug M
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Boat of the Ijaw people in Nigeria:
 -

http://www.daylife.com/photo/013U1Xmftd7sl

Nigerian girl in a canoe:

 -

Ijaw war boats from Nigeria:
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http://www.daylife.com/photo/07izcaR7J70M3

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Brada-Anansi
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Thor Heyerdahl's Ra 1,built by African boatmen from Lake Chad,along the pattern of the ancient Egyptians.
It left North Africa in 1969 and sailed as far as Barbados.The rudder broke early on the Ra,proving that an ancient drift journey in such a boat using Africa to America current was feasible.

The reason they ran into trouble was because Heyerdahl removed a line that ran from the curved tip of the ship to the afterdeck as is seen on Kemitic model.

Now you have to remember that this was not the most sophisticated boat the Kemites had in it's arsinal,The Cheop's boat was way more advanced

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Brada-Anansi
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WHEN KEMET RULED THE WAVES
Black Spark WHITE FIRE
Modified by Ackee

How did Kemet manage to project power across the Mediterraean Sea? During the 18th and 19th Dynasties,Kemet's enemy,the powerful Hittite Empire,was firmly incontrol of Asia Minor.The days when a Sesostris could march a land army into Europe had long gone. And in any case ,neither Crete nor the other Isle In the midst of the Great Green Sea were ever vulnerable to attack by land.

Clearly,the only way Kemet could have "trussed" the Haunebu and "struck" the Islanders(as Thutmose 3rd claimed to have done)or put them "in fear"(as Ramesses 2nd supposedly did)would have been to threaten the Aegean with a powerful navy.

The conquering pharaoh Thutmose 3rd made effective use of naval power in his invasion of Syria-Palestine. Thutmose's first move when he marched into the region was to size the harbors and equip them for heavy traffic.

"Every port town was supplied with every good thing..."says an incription of the time,"with ships of cedar loaded with columns and beams as well as timber.

Thutmose immediately put these harbors to work. In at least 13-teen successive campaigns against Syria-Palestine, Thutmose brought in his armies by sea-thus eliminating the need for a long overland march.

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Doug M
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5th dynasty boats from Saqqarah, pretty much the prototype for most modern sailing craft:

 -
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saqqarah_Ounas_11.jpg

 -
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Saqqarah_Ounas_10.jpg

These are very similar to those of Sahure posted earlier.

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Brada-Anansi
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@ Doug M or others,do you know if anyone did a test of the Khufu boat to see how it could perform on open ocean? it has a high bow,but how streamline was it in comparision to lets say a Viking boat.
Plus the oars seems oddly placed.

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Doug M
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West African making Lily Necklaces:
 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/globalnomads/227000212/in/set-72157594254619129/

10,000 year old method of water transport in Africa:

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/bagemot/2183456013/sizes/o/in/set-72157603693671531/

Boats in Mali:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/90949083@N00/77544503/

 -
http://www.flickr.com/photos/jrcohen/505288157/

Fishing:
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http://www.flickr.com/photos/phototyro/3294733352/

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Djehuti
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^^ Many of those boats and vessels are not much different from ones ancient Egyptians used...

fishing rafts

 -

 -

 -


larger ships

 -

 -

 -

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^ the lotus adornments this West African man makes is also strikingly similar to those worn by ancient Kemetians.

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