...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Ancient Egypt » Africa: A continent of "Land-Lubbers" ?? (Page 1)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   
Author Topic: Africa: A continent of "Land-Lubbers" ??
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
This topic is another intriguing one, because you don't often hear about African attempts at sea-faring.

I have come across very useful information, some of it here, some elsewhere. However, often times, you'll find sites making false and fantastic claims of Africans sailing the world over en masse influencing en-masse with little to no valid proof to back it up.

Not surprisingly for me, even Kemet is subject to bias about not having the capacity to be able to man the waves.

Here's a little something on the topic:

quote:


THE WAR FLEET

IN THE EIGHTH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF RAMESSES III-APPROXIMATELY 1178 B.C.--Egypt came face to face with disaster. The enemy confronting her seemed invincible. Already, this adversary had destroyed much of the civilized world. The Hittites, Amorites, and Cypriots had crumbled with hardly a fight. Egypt alone remained unconquered. And now the enemy was massing for the attack.

To this day, we do not know who the invaders were or where they came from. We do know, however, that they possessed one crucial advantage over their victims - sea power. Their mighty armada descended without warning on one defenseless coastline after another. They could attack and withdraw at will, for their huge numbers, fast ships, and nautical skills had given them command of the seas. For that reason, the Egyptians called them Peoples of the Sea.

"No country has been able to withstand their might," says an Egyptian inscription of the time. "The land[s] of the Hittites, Kode, Carchemish, ... and Cyprus have been destroyed at one stroke.... They have crushed their peoples, and their lands are as if they had never been. They marched against Egypt.... They laid hands on every land to the farthest ends of the earth. Their hearts were high and their confidence in themselves was supreme."

The only hints we have as to the identity of these people are a few puzzling syllables recorded on the enclosure walls of Ramesses III's funerary temple at Medinet Habu. The inscription tells us that they were not one people, but many, banded together in a conspiracy: "as for the foreign conutries, they made a conspiracey in their islands. All at once the lands were on the move, scattered in war ... a camp was set up in Amur [Syria].... Their league was Prst, Tkr, Shklsh, Dnn and Wshsh." (Bernal 1987, p. 446)

Prst, Tkr, Shklsh, Dnn, and Wshsh. These are thet names of the Sea People. But they might as well be written in code. As usual, we are confounded by the vowel-less enigma of Egyptian spelling. We can plug in e's and a's here and there, to render these names at least pronounceable. But the result will be what Egyptologist David M. Rohl calls "Egypto-speak"-not real Egyptian.

The shortcomings of Egypto-speak become embarrassingly apparent whenever scholars stumble across an Egyptian word that happens to have been transliterated into a foreign tongue. Thus, scholars have discovered that teh name of the pharaoh we call "Usermaatre Ramesses" in Egypto-speak was actually pronounced Washmuaria Riamashesha by the ancient Hittites.( David Rohl, 1995, p. 156) The Egypto-speak names of Amenhotep, Nebmaatre, and Neferkheperure are pronounced Amanhatpi, Nibmuaria, and Naphurria, respectively, in the cuneiform script of Mesopotamia.(Rohl, 1995, p. 160) How the Egyptians actually spoke these names, we do not know, but it seems a fair bet that Riamashesha is a lot closer to the mark than Ramesses.

What, then, shall we make of Prst, Tkr, Shklsh, Dnn, and Wshsh? A good Egypto-speak rendition of Prst would give Peleset (since "L" and "R" are frequently interchangeable in Egyptian). Some have suggested that teh Peleset are identical with the Philistines of the Bible. Then there are the Shekelesh, who may be one and the same with the Sikels of Sicily. The Dnn - that's Denen in Egypto-speak - may have been the Danaans of Homeric Greece. And so on.( Bibby (1961), pp. 338-339, Bernal (1991), p. 516, Shaw and Nicholson (1995), p. 255.)

It is all speculation. We know for certain only that the invaders came from many different lands and attacked by sea. Their attack was sufficiently traumatic that it plunged the Mediterranean word into a 300-year dark age. The Hittite Empire never rose again. The citadels of Mycenaean Greece vanished from history. But Egypt survived. Of all the great powers lining the Mediterranean "pond" at the close of the Bronze Age, it appears that Egypt alone possessed the one weapon necessary for fending off the Sea Peoples - a powerful war fleet.

When the invaders descended on Egypt, they came by land and sea simultaneously. One army marched down from Syria, while another sailed right into the mouth of the Nile with a mighty fleet. According to the inscriptions, Ramesses III turned his attention first to the land invaders, crushing the enemy beneath his chariots. Then he prepared for the final showdown - the battle with teh enemy ships. Ramesses III reported, "I turned the river mouths into a strong defensive wall, with warships, galleys and coastal vessels ... fully manned from stem to stern [Smile] with brave warriros [Wink] armed to the teeth. They were as ready for battle as lions roaring on the mountains."( Keller (1956), p. 177.)

The enclosure walls at Medinet Habu portray the titanic battle between the Egyptian fleet and the Peoples of teh Sea. In the relief, the foreigners can be seen on their ships, waring long skirts and peculiar, cockaded headdresses strapped to their chins. The Egyptians attack with their twenty-oared war galleys. Egyptian archers rain down arrows on the enemy decks, while Egyptian sailors disable the Sea Peoples' ships with grappling irons. Meanwhile, Egyptian infantrymen stand by, capturing survivors as the swim ashore. In the end, thousands of Sea People are marched away into slaver. Egypt has won a tremendous victory.

Whoever these Sea Peoples were, they had grossly miscalculated. Drunk with victory after their easy conquest of cyprus, Asia Minor, and Syria, they had momintarily convinced themselves that they, not Egypt, ruled the waves. Ramesses III and his war fleet lost little time in disabusing the Sea Peoples of this delusion.

What is perhaps most remarkable about this battle is that it was fought during the Twentieth Dynasty (1188 - 1069 B.C.) - a period of weakness and decline for Egypt. If the Egyptians could bring such sea power to bear in the autumn of their empire, what sort of navy might they have floated 200 years before, at the height of the Pax Aegyptiaca?

We can only guess. As is often the case in Egyptian history, the surviving records are so scanty that they raise more questions than they provide answers. We know that the pharaohs used warships from the earliest times. A rock carving at Gebel Sheikh Suleiman, for example, shows Nubian captives lashed to the prows of Egyptian war galleys in teh aftermath of a battle that probably took place sometime before 3000 B.C.( Steve Vinson, Egyptian Boats and Ships, Shire Publications, Buckinghamshire, England, 1994, pp. 35-36; also, Shaw and Nicholson (1995), p. 86) A painting in the tomb of the Eleventh Dynasty pharaoh Intef shows three heavily armed fighting ships, bristling with archers and mace-men. ( Ibid., pp. 20, 25)

The conquering pharaoh Thutmose III made effective use of naval power in his invasion of Syria-Palestine. Thutmose's first move when he marched into the region was to seize the harbors and equip them for heavy military traffic. "Every port town of His Majesty was supplied with every good thing ..." says an inscription of the time, "with ships of cedar loaded with columns and beams as well as large timbers." (Lionel Casson, The Ancient Mariners, Princeton U. Press, Princeton, NJ, 1991, p. 30.)

Thutmose immediately put these harbors to work.

[...]

Unfortunately, such scraps as this constitute all the information we possess about the elusive Egyptian navey. No clear records remain of large-scale naval engagements, beyond the single relief at Medinet Habu portraying the battle against the Sea Peoples. Based ont the "silence" of Egyptian records, some experts have gone so far as to conclude that Egypt never was a real maritime power at all. To the extent that she even had a navy, say the skeptics, it was used only for fighting on the river and not on the high seas. Indeed, the conventional view has long been that the Egyptians feared the open sea. Egyptologists Ian Shaw and Paul Nicholson wite:

The importance of water transport [in ancient Egypt] ... arose inevitably from the existence of the river Nile ... as the principal artery of communication.... However, when sailing outside the Nile Valley, on the Mediterranean or Red Sea, the ships seem to have stayed close to the shore. Unlike the Greeks, the Egyptians were evidently not enthusiastic seafarers. (Shaw and Nicholson 1995, p. 268)

Teh idea that the Egyptians were coast-hugging landlubbers remains standard among scholars to this day. But the theory has its problems. For one thing, it is based on a double standard. Evidence for seafaring ability is evaluated in two totally different ways, depending on whether it is found in Egypt or in the aegean. In general, scholars tend to assum that the Grereks and cretans were great seafarers during teh Bronze Age, even when there is very little evidence to prove this. Thus, in the book Prehistory and Protohistory, edited by George A. Christopoulos and John C. Bastias in 1974, we find the following statement regarding seafaring among the Bronze Age Cretans:

Although seafaring was unquestionably very highly developed, there is unfortunately very little positive evidence about it. Our only sources of information about the ships are a few illustrations, most of them on tiny sealstones.... In the circumstances, it is easy to see how thet Minoans [Cretans] came to enjoy teh virtually unchallenged supremacy of the seas. (Prehistory and Protohistory 1974 p. 151-152)

In this passage - as in scholarship generally - teh lack of positive evidence proves no obstacle to a firm conclusion that the Cretans enjoyed unchallenged supremacy of teh seas.


From -> Black Spark White Fire: Did African Explorers Civilize Ancient Europe? by Richard Poe
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Obviously that is an incorrect statement.

The legacy of Egypt on world maritime traditions is tremendous, yet the bias and distortion of Egyptology have hidden it from view.

Old Kindom burials featured multiple boat pits, some with multiple boats, during the Old Kingdom:

quote:

A complete fleet of 14 boats has been found by the American Archaeologists under the direction of N.Y. Univ. Dr. David O'Connor at Abydos North (nearly 2 Km North of the Early Dynastic Royal cemetery of Umm el-a'ab).
I ve added a brief account of a New York lecture (January 2001) by David O'Connor and Matthew Adams (thanks to Christine Van Heertum).
The first 12 boats were cleared in recent years, but the prows of the northernmost ones had been already reached in mid/late 1980s when they had been erroneously interpreted as the bastioned corner of a small mudbrick enclosure (Hor Aha?) which would lie between the Shunet ez-Zabib and the Western Mastaba (see plan).

The boats vary from 18/19 to 24/27 meters long and they seem to have been sealed by mudbrick casing. Traces of some pygments have been found on the wood planks, indicating that the boats could have been painted white. They have prows towards the Nile.
A part of the mudbrick casing suggests that there could have been a support for poles/pennants on top of the boats, as in the boats depicted on pottery or atop the archaic shrines onto some maceheads/palettes and in the HK loc. 29A cultual center.
The interior of the boats was filled with mudbricks too. Boulders aside some boats have been interpreted as model anchors.
The wood planks, painted in yellow on the outside, seem not to be of cedar. They were lashed by holes and rendered impermeable to water by reeds between them.
Pottery and small seal impressions have been recovered by one of the 14 boats; no king's name appears, but the general impression points more towards the early First Dynasty (Aha) than the late Second Dynasty (Khasekhemwy).

Naval archaeologist Cheryl Ward revealed to have been amazed by the high degree of technical skill shown by these artifacts.

Their age should be more than 400 years older than Khwfw's (Cheops) and, although found nearby the vast enclosure (Shunet ez Zebib) of Khasekhemwy, it appears possible that they belong to the second king of the first dynasty, Horus AHA, owner of Umm el Qa'ab tombs B19.

Much remains to be known from these boats that Dr. D. O'Connor began to excavate in 1991 (articles in 'Expedition' and 'Egyptian Archaeology') after an important campaign at the northern site of the Funerary Palaces (Talbezirke) of some kings of the first dynasty and the last two of the second (J.A.R.C.E. 26, 1989); C14 analysis and the study of jars and seal impressions found in the boats will tell more about the attribution of these boats to Hor Aha.
The wood has been treated with acrylic and wax to strenghten it before removal; much of it has become frass (wood-beetle excrement) which in turn can give us an idea of the wood shape and specie; the boats have been covered with sand at the end of each digging campaign.

It can be already said that archaic boats had been found at Helwan by Z. Saad and a 'model estate' and funerary boat was found at Saqqara by W. Emery (in 1957-8; tomb S 3357); both these examples were very early in the first dynasty, thus the date to the reign of Aha can't be excluded. In total 4 or 5 boat burials were found at Helwan, 2 at Abu Roash Hill M, and finally others at the northerly Abydos site of the Royal enclosures, near those just found. The most famous boat was found in 1954 beside Khwfw's pyramid south side - 4 more boat pits exist - and later reconstructed by Ahmed Yussef Mustafa.
Six boats of Middle Kingdom date were found at Dahshur. They're about 10 m long each.
Old Kingdom boats are depicted in the royal complexes of the Fifth Dynasty (Sahure, Unas), in the Mastaba of Mereruka and, later, there are the famous scenes at Deir el Bahari; but these are all for transportation purposes, as those reproduced in the M.K. models of Meketra (Deir el Bahari). It has been extimated that a boat for the transportation of the Hatshepsut obelisk in Karnak had to be at least 63 meters long.(cfr. A. Gottlicher in K.Bard ed. Encyclopedia of the Archaeology of Ancient Egypt p. 728 ff).

As for the wood long distance trade, we know that Aha's immediate predecessor Narmer had a great deal of relations with the Near East (Canaan) as attested in various sites expecially by Serekhs with his name onto wave handled jars (fragments). The hard cedar wood of Lebanon has been found in poles and beams of the Umm el Qaab tombs but it was already imported earlier as we can see from D.A.I.K. findings in Abydos cemetery B(Iry Hor, Ka, Narmer) and U (expec. Naqada IIIa2, c.3250).

From: http://xoomer.alice.it/francescoraf/hesyra/news.htm

Ancient Egypt had canals criss crossing the country, many of which were serviced by water taxis, barges and other types of transport vessels.

Old Kingdom mastaba tombs often feature scenes full of LARGE BOATS, not mere river rafts, with sails, oars or both. A good example is in the mastaba of Mereruka.

Egypt, from the very Old Kingdom and possibly prior, had to get much of its timber from outside the country. One of the main sources of timber was in Byblos, somewhere near modern day Syria. This trade was supplanted by Egyptian expansion into the area, which made vassal states of many of the people in the area. The Egyptians used these states in trade and as subjects as the source of wood for boats and possibly even the boats themselves. In later periods, direct military action by Egypt in the region caused the Egyptians to again use the local harbors, resources and population to build fleets for the Armies of Thutmosis III. All of this maritime trade and construction with Egypt led to the growth and development of the technologies that became a hallmark of the Phoenicians years later. The fact that the Phoenicians grew to be a powerful maritime force from the same area where Egypt harnessed the resources and population for its own maritime needs cannot be a coincidence. It is also no coincidence that many of the boats built in the later eras of Mediterranean sea warfare were ALSO built by the Phoenicians, again a legacy of the ancient maritime relationship between Egypt and people of that region. From this you get Greek ships that look remarkably like those of the Old Kingdom in Egypt. It is also from this relationship that you get eyes painted on the bow of Greek and Mediterranean ships, which is derived from the Egyptian legacy of painting boats with symbols of their gods, including the Eyes of Ra or Horus.

Boat from the Pyramid complex of King Sahure in the Old Kingdom. Notice that this complex is often described as having many images of boats with oars and sails, which means they were SEA WORTHY. That combined with the ancient boat burials, which were all not of the "ceremonial" or reed float type of the Khufu or Temple processions, shows that there was indeed a seagoing maritime capability in Egypt from a very early period. Again, the fact that they say there isn't is more a reflection of their bias or lack of serious scholarship. I would assume the former is more likely. Therefore, how can someone say no EVIDENCE exists for a sea going tradition in Egypt, with all the evidence that is there? I mean a culture that valued ships so much that they depicted them in tombs, built scale models (oldest in the world) and BURIED THEM would OBVIOUSLY be considered as having a OCEAN GOING MARITIME tradition. Yet this is the nonsense that keeps being told to us.

King Sahure:

 -
 -

Copy of image from Sahure's complex at Abu Sir:

 -

Both of these and other boats from the Old Kingdom show the style of boats that would become common in the Mediterranean in later periods.

quote:

The cheapest form of primitive boat was the pot boat, simply a clay container large enough to accommodate a passenger. It was meant for places free of rocks and was ideal for getting around the marshy areas of the Nile delta. Egypt was fairly treeless and it would be difficult to find other means of building boats. The Egyptians did find enough wood to make planked boats. There is evidence that the Old Kingdom of Egypt had the first planked boats ever made. These were used even in burial rituals. Fourteen have recently been found buried in the region of Abydos.

The boat made out of planks was an improvement on the dugout which was hollowed out of a single log. In southern Egypt, archaeologists have found a multitude of pictures of boats that, shortly before 3100 BCE, were drawn on rock outcrops or were included as part of the decoration on pottery. Among them, are some that show a mast with a broad square sail hung from it. The tombs of Egypt have yielded pictures and even models of a variety of river craft, from tiny rowboats through swift yachts and dispatch boats to enormous barges large enough to carry huge obelisks weighing hundreds of tons from the quarries.

When Sahure in 2450 BCE wanted to transport men to the Lebanon coast, boats were needed that adapted this river-design to sea sailing. Around one end of the vessel was looped an enormous hawser, which was carried along the centerline above the deck and looped about the other end. A stout pole was then placed through the strands of the hawser, where it passed over the deck, and by twisting, one could tighten the entire harness just like a tourniquet. This served for internal stiffening, as the hawser kept the ends from sagging when the boat rode heavy waves. An elaborate netting was also added, which ran horizontally about the upper part of the hull. This may have been another aid for holding the ship together, or merely gear to protect the sides from rubbing.

A two-legged mast rather than the single mast was also designed, and it served to distribute the pressure, steadied by lines fore and aft. A tall, slender square-sail was mounted with two spars spreading it, a yard along the head, and a boom along the foot. When there was no wind, sail was taken in, the mast lowered, and rowers could power the ship along.

From: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/shipsandboats.htm

Some good pages on the development of Maritime technology in the Mediterranean and the role played by Egypt:

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/index.html

But this is just a part of the legacy of ancient Egypt in maritime tradition. Just like the Egyptians influenced the Mediterranean maritime tradition, they also influenced that of the Red Sea and Persian Gulf as a result of the spread of Islam. Maritime trade was a key feature during the Islamic period of Islamic control of the Mediterranean and Egyptian ship designs were an important part of this history. The felucca and other styles of ships derived from Egyptian boats were prominent during the Islamic age of domination of Mediterranean commerce.

Also, it has been said that the first DRY DOCK was built in Egypt, by a Phoenician no less.

quote:

Antiquity

According to the ancient Greek author Athenaeus of Naucratis, the drydock was invented in Ptolemaic Egypt, some time after the death of Ptolemy IV Philopator (reigned 221-204 BC):
“ But after that (the reign of Ptolemy IV Philopator) a Phoenician devised a new method of launching it (a ship), having dug a trench under it, equal to the ship itself in length, which he dug close to the harbour. And in the trench he built props of solid stone five cubits deep, and across them he laid beams crosswise, running the whole width of the trench, at four cubits' distance from one another; and then making a channel from the sea he filled all the space which he had excavated with water, out of which he easily brought the ship by the aid of whatever men happened to be at hand; then closing the entrance which had been originally made, he drained the water off again by means of engines (organois); and when this had been done the vessel rested securely on the before-mentioned cross-beams.[1] ”

Since Athenaeus recorded the event 400 years later (around 200 AD), there is sufficient reason to believe that drydocks had been known throughout classical antiquity.

From: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dry_dock

Another translation of the Athenaeus text.

But this is only to expected, given the 3,000 year history of Egyptian maritime technology by that time and the fact that the Egyptians had been building causeways, dams and canals for even longer than that. A drydock combines the excavation and canal capabilities of ancient times with the nilometer and other fluid volume measurement systems of the Nile. The markings on the undersides of ships and the sides of canals traces their origins back to Egypt, the Nilometer and the measurments of the inundation.

Aswan Nilometer:

 -

 -

http://lexicorient.com/egypt/aswan04.htm


Not only that, but the tradition of using such boats in naval warfare in the Mediterranean can also be traced back to Egypt as the scenes in the Old Kingdom mastabas and records of the military actions of Thutmosis III show clearly.

Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The Trireme was developed in Egypt, according to Herodatus, by the Pharoah Neco II. Necho II is the one who sent expeditions around Africa. Another author, H.T. Wallinga, believes that the trireme was developed in Egypt, but not by Necho. Either way, the trireme was an important development in the history of maritime trade and warfare in the Mediterranean and shows that Egypt played a very important part of the technological development of maritime shipping, right up to the very late period.

quote:

Necho concentrated much of his war effort on rebuilding the Egyptian maritime strength. He built fleets of triremes with rams of the type invented by the armorers of Samos and Corinth in the Mediterranean and the Red Sea and manned them with Greeks.

Necos betook himself to raging wars, and triremes were built by him, some for the Northern Sea and others in the Arabian gulf for the Erythraian Sea; and of these the sheds are still to be seen. These ships he used when he needed them.
Herodotus, Histories 2.159 [2], translated by Macaulay
Project Gutenberg

H.T.Wallinga disputes the fact that triremes were built by Necho and thinks that Herodotus mistranslated the Egyptian word for "ship". He moreover maintains that the trireme was not developed in Greece but in Egypt during the late 6th century BCE and was a result (or perhaps a cause) of the Egyptian Persian arms race.

The canal connecting the Pelusian arm of the Nile with the Red Sea via Wadi Tumilat and the Bitter Lakes was of vital strategic importance, both militarily and economically, above all for the protection of the Egyptian southern flank and the trade routes to Arabia and East Africa. If it was abandoned, as Herodotus claims, Edomites, Arabs and Babylonians who plied those waters could do so unhindered.
Necho also sent a party of Phoenicians on a journey around Africa. The purpose of the undertaking can only be surmised and nothing is known whether it had any effect on the trade with the dark continent.

From: http://nefertiti.iwebland.com/nekhaus_maritime_policies.htm

Review Author H.T. Wallinga's book on Egypt and the development of maritime technology:

quote:

Many of Wallinga's ideas are quite radical and often at variance with commonly-held scholarly opinion; but only occasionally (e.g., when criticizing Meyer's view of the evolution of Athenian naval power on pp. 8-11) does he labour the point when opposing traditional interpretations. Many of Wallinga's ideas are worthy of serious consideration. So, for instance, he argues that the penteconter was without exception a twin-banked vessel rather than the more common view that there were both single and twin-banked versions (pp. 45-53). The introduction of the trireme he dates quite late to some time in the third quarter of the sixth century, dismissing the triremes attributed to the seventh-century Egyptian pharaoh Necho by Herodotus (2.159) as a mistranslation of the Egyptian word for `ship', which in Herodotus' time was equivalent to Greek trieres but probably in Necho's time referred to the then standard warship (pp. 104f.). Wallinga finds it difficult to believe that these vessels can have been triremes for the very sound reason that if the trireme was in existence around 600 BC, it is strange that the Carthaginians did not use them at the battle of Alalia in the 540s BC to offset the otherwise superior Phocaean penteconters (on which see pp. 67-83).

Wallinga further argues that the evolution of the trireme occurred not in the world of the Greek polis (where the speed advantage over the penteconter would not, without other factors coming into play, justify the trebling of the manpower requirement), but in Carthage and Egypt, and in two distinct phases; the Carthaginians added a third bank of oars to the penteconter as a means of countering Phocaean naval superiority, and the three-banked system was in Egypt added to existing cargo vessels to counter a potential naval threat from Persia (pp. 102-18). This is in direct contrast to the usual view that the trireme originated in Greece and was then exported to the Near East; but though Thucydides says that triremes were built (1.13.2), it seems best, despite the objections of Morrison, to accept Wallinga's view (p. 31) that by this he means the first triremes in Greece, not the first triremes ever; this is the natural reading of the Greek. Wallinga's hypothesis seems far more plausible than the common view that the trireme evolved from the much smaller two-level penteconter with no intermediate stage, though it will not appeal to the Hellenocentric. According to Wallinga, the trireme only became the standard warship in the late sixth and early fifth centuries BC; Persia built them because Egypt had them, Athens because Persia had them, and the rest of Greece because of Athens.

From: http://www.und.ac.za/und/classics/r-a3kee.html
Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 14 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
[Smile] Very good finds, Doug.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 14 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Great info, Doug! And a very good topic, Whatbox.

I have been aware of the bias against Africans in seafaring for a while now.

Posts: 22723 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Thanks Guys.

Another thing I realized later after making my earlier posts, is that the Boat pits featuring boats on mooring devices to stand upright ARE DRY DOCKS. So there you have it right there, ancient boat pits from Egypt are some of the oldest "dry docks" in the world. But unless you get out of the Eurocentric or Hellenocentric mindset you won't see this. Remember many boat pits were associated also with canals and causeways that led to temples and other important sanctuaries which possibly had some sort of mechanism to cut off the water and leave the boat resting on a foundation. This would mean that some boat pits had boats in them that were NOT dissasembled and therefore sat in "dry dock".
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/greatpyramid5.htm

quote:

Equally important was the funerary boat, which transported a mummy to its final resting place or, if buried with the deceased, took soul of the dead on its eternal journey. Ahmed Youssef Moustafa believed that the Royal Ship was specifically built as a funerary barque for Cheops and was never part of the royal fleet. Part of the reason for this belief is that ocean-going vessels were usually painted green on the body with yellow ochre at the ends and the protective wedjat eye painted on both sides of the bow. This is in direct contrast to the hull of the Royal Ship, which is unpainted, indicating that the ship was built quickly and specifically for the king’s burial.

From: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/aboat.htm

Early sun temples from the old kingdom featured such boats. These temples are also important to understanding the development of the calendar and timekeeping in Egypt. The fact that they all featured obelisks as their central element, indicates to me that they were tracking time and the seasons using the obelisk as a reference for shadows and so forth. Many of these sun temples were also aligned accurately to the cardinal directions, again an indication of their use for time keeping and recording the suns journey through the sky over the course of the year. Another thing that I see in this tradition of sun temples is the obelisk as a refinement of the concept of megaliths that had arisen in the area of Nabta Playa. Just as Nabta Playa used megalithic stones to record the seasons, the solar soltice and possibly time, the sun temples seem to be also doing the same thing. The presence of elaborate offering chambers and vessels for sacrifices of cattle at these sun temples also seems to be another continuation of a tradition that was found in Nabta Playa.

quote:

The alter itself, directly in front of (east) of the obelisk, was laid out in the open courtyard approximately in the center of the temple. It is a complex object, made up of five huge alabaster blocks. The central block's upper surface is carved in a 1.8 meter (6 foot) diameter circular form, which may symbolize a rounded offering table or a stylized hieroglyphic sign for Re, the sun god. The four later blocks, each facing cardinal points, have surfaces carved in the form of the hieroglyphic symbol hetep, which means "offering" or "offering table," but might also be translated as "peace" or Another view of the pedestal"satisfied." Hence, the altar might symbolically be read as, 'Re is satisfied' in the four principal directions. This offering table today remains in a good state of preservation, and represents the most beautiful example of its type from all eras of Egyptian history.

This alter was situated at the eastern foot of an immense stone pedestal some 20 meters high. Surmounting this pedestal was a 36 meter high obelisk. The pedestal itself, built of limestone blocks with red granite casing, took the form of a truncated pyramid.

Southwest of the altar at the south east corner of the pedestal, was an opening into the dedication chapel, which also allowed access to the "chamber of the seasons". Within the T-shaped entrance vestibule of the temple enclosure are five granite lined doorways. Those in the center lead into the courtyard. Those to the side opened into corridors that lead off to the right and left, A granite pillar at the site of Niuserre's Sun Temple inscribed with his cartoucheskirting the courtyard. The right corridor appears to lead around the edge of the courtyard to the storage annexes. On this corridor's east end was a stairway that led to the roof terrace. The corridor to the left (south) lead completely around the courtyard finally providing access first to the "chamber of the seasons" and then the dedication chapel. The "chamber of the seasons" included fine, low relief depictions known as the "Seasons", which portray the changing seasons of inundation and harvest. Doubtless present, but now gone, were reliefs of the third part of the year, the season of emergence (of the fields from the flood or the crops from the ground). However, von Bissing removed these reliefs and transported them to Germany where today they make up one of the most valuable exhibits of the Egyptian Museum in Berlin.

Just in front (east) of the "chamber of the seasons" was a small chapel decorated with scenes of the dedication of the temple. Unfortunately, these reliefs were applied to poor stone enhanced with a coating of lime plaster and were in poor condition. Both the entrance and the outside corridors were decorated with Sed-festival scenes, including some of the earliest that we know of, presumably oriented towards the king and his relationship with Re.

From: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/niuserresuntemple.htm

quote:

Located 100 km west of Abu Simbel, in southernmost Egypt, Nabta Playa is a large, internally drained basin, which during the early Holocene ( ca. 11,000 - 5500 calibrated radiocarbon years ago) was a large and important ceremonial center for prehistoric people. It was intermittently and seasonally filled with water, which encouraged people to come there, and today it contains dozens, and perhaps hundreds, of archaeological sites. People came from many regions to Nabta Playa to record astronomical events, erect alignments of megaliths, and build impressive stone structures.

From around 65,000 years ago until about 12,000 years ago the Western Desert was hyper-arid, at least as dry as today and perhaps drier. This began to change after 12,000 years ago when the summer rains of tropical Africa began to move northward, bringing sufficient moisture for a wide variety of sahelian grasses, trees and bushes to grow, and for a few small animals to exist, mostly hares and small gazelle, but also including a few small carnivores. Even with the rains it was still very dry; the annual rainfall was no more than 100 - 150 mm per year, and it was unpredictable and punctuated with numerous droughts, some of which caused the desert to be abandoned for lengthy periods. The earliest (11,000 - 9300 years ago, calibrated) settlements at Nabta were composed of small seasonal camps of cattle-herding and ceramic-using people. These early cattle are regarded as domestic (Wendorf and Schild 1994), and it may have been in the Western Desert that the African pattern of cattle herding developed, wherein cattle serve as a "walking larder" and provide milk and blood, rather than meat (except for ceremonial occasions) and are the economic basis for power and prestige. Pottery is very rare in these sites, but distinctive. It is decorated over the entire exterior with complex patterns of impressions applied with a comb in a rocking motion. The source of this pottery has not been identified, but it is among the oldest known in Africa, and older than pottery in Southwest Asia. These early people probably came into the desert after the summer rains from either farther south or the adjacent Nile Valley, in either case searching for pasture for their cattle. Each fall, when the surface water in the playas dried up and there was no water for them or their cattle, they had to return to the Nile, or perhaps to the better watered areas to the south.

By 9000 years ago (8000 bp, uncalibrated), the settlements were much larger, and their inhabitants were able to live in the desert year-round, digging large, deep wells and living in organized villages consisting of small huts arranged in straight lines. The many plant remains in these sites tell us they were collecting large numbers of edible wild plants, including sorghum, millets, legumes, tubers, and fruits. Around 8800 years ago (7800 bp, uncalibrated), they began to make pottery locally, possibly the earliest pottery in Egypt. A few hundred years later, around 8100 years ago (7100 bp, uncalibrated), sheep and goats occur for the first time at Nabta, almost certainly introduced from Southwest Asia, where domestic caprovids had been known for over 2000 years. There must have been many changes in the settlement system to accommodate these new animals; the settlements are very large and contain numerous hearths, but there is no evidence of huts or houses.

A major change occurred in the character of the Neolithic society at Nabta occurred around 7500 years ago, following a major drought which drove the previous groups from the desert. The groups who returned to the desert now clearly had a complex social system that expressed a degree of organization and control not previously seen in Egypt. They sacrificed young cows and buried them in clay-lined and roofed chambers covered by rough stone tumuli, they erected alignments of large, unshaped stones, they built Egypt's earliest astronomical measuring device (a "calendar circle" which appears to have been used to mark the summer solstice), and they constructed more than 30 complex structures having both surface and subterranean features. A shaped stone from one of these complexes may be the oldest known sculpture in Egypt.

These structures are important because they indicate the way the people were able to organize work, celebrate their culture, and perhaps express their religious beliefs, and furthermore, they tell us that the Saharan people may have been more highly organized than their contemporaries in the Nile Valley.

From: http://www.comp-archaeology.org/WendorfSAA98.html
Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ I have read sources which state that the Egyptians ketp somewhat of a distance from the Mediterranean Sea or were "distrustful" of it and preferred sailing the Red Sea instead. But this made little sense to me.

How true was this? Why would the Egyptians prefer sailing in the Red Sea as opposed to the Mediterranean?

Posts: 22723 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
They did both. The statement is a myth that has become fact in many histories in Egypt. The Egyptians had developed all sorts of means to sail on rivers and open sea way back in the 0ld Kingdom. The purposes for sailing along all of the nearby bodies of water were the same: trade, military action and travel. Egypt had been engaged in campaigns into the Levant from a very early period and the illustration of the ship and model of the ships from Sahure's temple is record of the need to transport people to and from the Levantine coast and further. The only reason the popular myth about Egypt staying away from the Mediterranean is continually pushed is because some do not want to openly admit that Africans had been dominating many of the people of the Levantine coast and using the region as a source of wood, ships and shipbuilding facilities from a very early period. It is easier to ignore that evidence and just restrict Egypt's maritime legacy to the Nile and Red Sea. This keeps them from having to admit that Africans were a major force behind the development of Mediterranean maritime technology, as opposed to the standard history of all maritime technology originating with the Greeks, Romans and Phoenicians.
Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ But I thought historians' problem is to admit that Egyptians were indigenous Africans in the first place. If under the assumption that the Egyptians were of Asiatic or of "caucasoid" descent, would there be no problem in accepting Egyptian maritime trade or influence in the Mediterranean? Is Egypt not dubiously identified as a "Mediterranean" civilization and people in the first place?
Posts: 22723 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please explain to me the lack of Egyptian contact
with other Africans along the Mediterranean shore
if they sailed that sea themselves.

And I would also like to know why they hired the
ancient Lebanese to do so much ship sailing stuff
for them if they were so adept at it themselves.

I mean I can't find any evidence of major trade
even between Egypt an Cyrenaica less lone Egypt
and Carthage. Am I looking in the wrong sources
(Heeren's more than a century old "trade" book)?

Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The ancient Egyptians left tons of evidence of their maritime achievements on the walls and in the sands of the monuments of the Old Kingdom. This evidence has been posted. The idea that we can only acknowledge such evidence if it fits into a pattern of Eurocentric distortion is the part that is causing the problem. The ONLY reason that the Egyptians went to the area of modern day Lebanon is because they had something that the Egyptians needed: WOOD. If other parts of the nearby African coast had a similar supply of such raw materials, I am sure they would have gone there too. But most of Northern Africa had the same environment as Egypt and it probably would not have had much in the way of the kind of timber they needed. And if it did, the fact that peoples around Lebanon were already WELL KNOWN for their lumber probably made it not necessary in the first place.

The other point is that just because the lumber was found outside of Egypt does not mean the expertise to BUILD BOATS with lumber came from OUTSIDE of Egypt. The oldest WOODEN PLANK BOATS in the world are found in Egypt and there is no evidence that they were built with Lebanese help, other than the wood itself. In fact, for most of the dynastic period Lebanon was part of greater Egypt and it was only during the advent of the Sea Peoples and the Hyksos that Egypt did not have control of the region and have a large presence of Egyptians in the region. During the Old Kindom there was much military activity by the Egyptians into this area and much of this had to do with resources. From this interaction and the need of wood in the area for Egyptian maritime activity, there developed a substantial amount of maritime expertise among those populations in the region. But that expertise did not come from nowhere, it came from the years of previous interaction with the Egyptians who helped develop this maritime technology in the first place, which led to that region becoming the maritime capital of the late bronze age.

The phoenecian navy is a relatively late component of Egyptian maritime activity. In the old and Middle Kingdom there WAS NO PHOENICIA to begin with and therefore if there was any maritime activity it would have been Egyptians doing it themselves or they would have had to conquer and make vassals of those who they COULD get to do the sailing for them, even though there is no evidence that this was happening in the Old or Middle Kindgdom. Yet there is evidence from the Old and Middle Kingdom of boats of all shapes and sizes and it is doubtful that the technology for such boats came from anywhere else but Egypt as no OTHER evidence for boats of such types has been found anywhere else from that period.

Most of the evidence for the Phoenicians being in the service of the Egyptian pharoahs came from the late period. Necho and Necho II represent the HIEGHT of this relationship and these pharoahs are indeed in the late period of Egypt's history, around 630 B.C., during the Saite 26th dynasty. This period is LONG AFTER the great events of the Old Kingdom and Middle Kingdom and the exploits of Thutmosis III, when the pattern of maritime Egyptian activities and power were at their peak.

Such comments as the following:

quote:

At this time, Greece was expanding her trading contacts and Necho took the opportunity to recruit displaced Ionian Greeks to form an Egyptian Navy. This was, militarily, revolutionary, for the Egyptians had an inherent distaste for and fear of the sea. While this new navy was probably not much threat to his rivals, it did lead to other benefits, such as the creation of a new African trade route. He also encouraged some Greek settlement in the Delta.

From: http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/necho2.htm

Are implicitly designed to promote a MYTH of Egyptian fear of the sea and the distortion of maritime history by focusing on the activities in the extremely LATE period of Egyptian history, when much of Egypt's power and glory were long gone and trying to use that to overshadow the impact that the previous 3000 years of Egyptian presence had in and around the Mediterranean.

Remember, it is during THIS PERIOD, under Necho, that the Phoenicians circumnavigated Africa. There can be no doubt that had it NOT been for the patronage of Egypt at this time, such a feat would NOT have occurred. And it is also certain that such a feat was accompanied by EGYPTIAN SAILORS. But of course, the link above makes no MENTION OF THIS because that is another example of the TREMENDOUS impact Egypt had on the maritime traditions of the Mediterranean. Likewise, the reason why Egypt would have expanded trade with the African coast to the West, would have been been because of the growth of the great Carthaginian city state in the region, as a military and trade power, which was NOT THERE in the Old or New Kingdoms. So, again, things are not being put into proper context. And another example of how the REAL maritime legacy of Egypt during this time, is modern research showing that the TRIREME, the backbone of later Mediterranean navies, was possibly DEVELOPED IN EGYPT under Necho, which again makes sense. Therefore, as a RESULT of the Egyptians having a large and far flung naval force, made up of VARIOUS components, chiefly the native Egyptian Navy and the Phoenicians, the Greeks who were ushered into Egyptian naval service during this time would have acquired MUCH in the way of expertise FROM EGYPT and PHOENICIA, which would have helped them to become an Empire in later times. Lets not forget that the Phoenicians were building boats first for the Egyptians, then the Greeks, Romans and Persian navies all during this period and later. But again, because of the bias in telling the facts, this legacy is lost.

Phoenician maritime legacy & Egypt:
http://phoenicia.org/proutes.html

Again the following comment is another good example of statements PURPOSELY designed to degenerate Egypt's technical maritime prowess:

quote:

The very earliest naval battle is depicted on the carved relief decoration of a Naqada II ivory knife handle that was found at Gebel al-Arak. It shows boats with high, straight prows and sterns, usually interpreted as foreign vessels. The early Nile boats used for military purposes seem to have been primarily used for the transportation of troops up and down the Nile, and indeed, Egypt's early conflicts were mostly internal control issues.

We do find reliefs in the 5th Dynasty mortuary temple of King Sahure at Abusir depicting a sea-borne fleet that is said to have transported his army to Syria, and in the 6th Dynasty, the official Weni is said to have taken troops to Palestine in vessels described as nmiw (traveling ships).

Keelless seagoing vessels like those during the time of King Sahure (2500 BCE) traded with the Phoenician cities, importing cedar wood, Asiatic slaves and other merchandise. They were also sent as the first Egyptian trade expedition to the Land of Punt. The bipedal mast carried a vertical sail, and the bow was decorated with an eye. It was steered by six oars and had. The bow was decorated with an eye.

" I went down on the sea in a ship of one hundred and fifty cubits long and forty cubits wide, with one hundred and fifty sailors of the best of Egypt who had seen heaven and earth, and whose hearts were stronger than lions."

Tale of the Shipwrecked Sailor, c. 2200 BCE

However, most Egyptian vessels were not suitable for sailing in the Mediterranean or the Red Sea. The idea of sea going ships was probably imported from the Levantine seaboard, and most likely from the region of Byblos. There was certainly a strong connection in the Egyptian minds between Byblos and naval activity, since the most common word for an Egyptian sea vessel was kbnt, literally meaning "Byblos-boat".

Sea going boats used by both the Egyptians and their neighbors were relatively simple, consisting of a rectangular sail and usually one or two rudder oars. However, the Palermo Stone records the construction of a ship fifty two meters in length during the reign of king Sneferu of the 3rd Dynasty, and in the 5th Dynasty tomb of Ti at Saqqara, boat builders are depicted at work on another very large vessel.

From: http://touregypt.net/featurestories/navy.htm

Comments like the foreign boats had masts or the Egtyptians identified Lebanon with naval expertise are BOTH indicative of the sort of distortion that keeps the Egyptian naval impact on the Mediterranean in it's proper context.

The boats on the Gebel Arak Knife were probably LOCAL as inscriptions of boats of that type were also found elsewhere around Egypt. The reason the region around modern Lebanon was associated with maritime activities is because that is where the WOOD came from, not necessarily the technical expertise or know how to BUILD the boats. Again, the influence on the Maritime traditions in the Mediterranean went FROM EGYPT TO the mediterranean as a legacy of the Egyptian presence in and around modern Lebanon as one of their early maritime conquests and probably even an early Egyptian naval outpost. It makes sense that if the Egyptians wanted to build a presence on the ocean, as they had no local supply of wood to create such a Navy, they would have had to go where the wood was plentiful. This is backed up by the images and reliefs from the Old Kindom depicting Egyptan naval activities in the region, again, most likelly reflecting the Egyptians need to secure those wood supplies and a naval presence. And no society that buried boats in special graves and featured them so prominently in their art can be CLAIMED to be scared of the sea. That is pure and absolute nonsense. In fact almost every inscription about Egyptian sea men boast of them being BRAVE AS LIONS, which does not reflect people who were SCARED of going out to sea.

Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
So where is the explicit evidence I asked for, namely
maritime trade with Carthage or any sea knowledge of
Mediterranean and Atlantic Africa? Or any far ranging
sea exploits across the sea to non-continental lands?


We already know about their coast hugging East African
exploits. Kick the ballistics. I'm here to learn as well as
teach.
quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The ancient Egyptians left tons of evidence of their maritime achievements


Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
The point is that trade with Carthage came late because Carthage did not appear on the map until late, in Egyptian terms. Carthage did not become a Mediterranean power until after the dynastic period was almost over. Therefore, trade with Carthage is not any sort of significant factor in the time frame of dynastic Egyptian Naval power in the ancient Mediterranean. Likewise, you have the oldest images of seaworthy ships and ships at sea in Egypt, yet somehow that doesn't count as evidence? How much evidence do you need? Or is it because the Eurocentrics said that those things were just "river boats", or ceremonial, then it doesn't count?

The time period of ancient Egyptian naval power exerting an influence on the Mediterranean goes back to 3000 B.C. and earlier. From this time period, there are few remaining ACTUAL BOATS in existence, except for those FOUND IN THE TOMBS OF EGYPT. Doesn't that tell you something? Or, because the Egyptologists say they are merely funerary boats, they don't count in Mediterranean maritime history, we should ignore them?

Well once again, the problem isn't evidence, it is the INTERPRETATION of the evidence, especially from a Eurocentric point of view that causes the problem.

Case in point. Look at the ships from the monuments of the Old Kingdom, like those of Sahure and others. They are EXACTLY the same types of ships that would be built by LATER cultures elsewhere in the Mediterranean. Think that is merely a coincidence? I think not.

Good example:

Doesn't this vase and the ships remind you of the artifacts found in the Nile Valley from over a thousand years prior?

(Mycenean shipping Amphora 1700 B.C.)
 -

View the rest of the images on this site:

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/07_merchant_ships.html

and note how much those Minoan and Mycenean vessels resemble this, from 1000 years earlier:

 -


In fact many of those images look like reproductions of scenes from Egyptian art 1000 years earlier. And also note how the "funny shape" of the Minoan and Mycenean boats is not called into question as to their sea worthiness, but the EXACT SAME kind of boat in Egypt from 1000 years earlier IS QUESTIONED as being sea worthy? Now who is kidding who?

Also note that some of the earliest boats allegedly used in Greece were papyrus boats. These boats were used for going to the Sea and some try and put the age of this technology in Greece back to 7000 B.C., but with no evidence. Somehow I sense a double standard, whereas Greece and other places are credited with ancient seagoing abilities with little or no evidence, while ancient Egypt with a continuous record and tradition of boats in ALL ASPECTS of their culture get no credit for ANYTHING.......

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ships/Ships.htm

Like I said, get rid of the Eurocentric nonsense and the evidence is plain to see.

Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And, in case there was any question where I am going, compare this:

 -
From: http://touregypt.net/Featurestories/picture11272002.htm

with this:

 -

And tell me what you see. One is 1700 years older than the other, at least.

More on this vase:

quote:

The meaning of the patterns on the vessels is debatable. Most Egyptologists now agree that they portray a boat bearing a standard or banner. It used to be said that such representations are not boats but watered land with a chief's residence, or a temple platform on stilts. The standards on poles are usually accepted as divine emblems or signs of clans or nomes. Some of the signs on other pots are almost identical with those of gods in historic times. The scattered zzzz signs have been variously interpreted as numbers, libation water, birds or notations of weight and the blocked triangles as hills. The motifs were not only common on pottery of this period but also occur in the earliest known example of Egyptian wall painting, a painted tomb at Hierakonpolis.

This pot is made of marl clay. Marl clay was found on the desert edge and under the cultivation near the desert was used. Pottery of this date is shaped by coiling and smoothing (You can see the coiling on the inside of the vessel.) The decoration was applied before firing. Brushes were made from reeds and the paint from oxides of iron.

The fact that these vessels do not have a flat base shows that they were either put in pot holders, suspended by a cord or placed in the sand to stay upright. The lug type handles might suggest that they were suspended when in use. The lugs might alternatively have been used to tie on a cloth lid. Unfortunately we do not know what was in them. Since they are quite small they have contained an expensive commodity.

From: http://www.swan.ac.uk/egypt/infosheet/W5308.htm

Now compare these images from 3500 B.C.:

http://xoomer.alice.it/francescoraf/hesyra/Gebelein-linen.htm

http://xoomer.alice.it/francescoraf/hesyra/Hierakonpolis-tomb100.htm

with these from 1700 B.C.:

 -

And what do you see?

Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Oh and by the way, most pages on Egyptian history will say that the images from Tomb 100 in Hierankopolis from 3500 B.C. show Mesopotamian influence, yet they NEVER show ANY images of the same type from an EARLIER date. Yet the Sahara is LITTERED with such images. Again, who is fooling who? Similarly they claim that the palace facade motif is an import or the master of beasts motif is an import, yet again they show NO EARLIER examples of such images from mesopotamia.
Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mystery Solver
Member
Member # 9033

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mystery Solver         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

^ But I thought historians' problem is to admit that Egyptians were indigenous Africans in the first place.

It is questionable that all historians have the problem that you are referring to. Many of the studies and data posted here, are not the inventions of posters here; just that some of us are faster learners than others.
Posts: 1947 | Registered: Sep 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ Of course I didn't mean all historians. Just as Doug often criticizes histroians for not accepting Egypt to be African, I assume he merely speaks of the 'traditionalist' scholars.
Posts: 22723 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Are you saying AEs stopped leaving documents after
~800 BCE? What trade existed between AE and Carthage?
I want to know about it.

I already admitted the only research I've read on the matter

Arnold Hermann Ludwig Heeren
Historical researches into the politics, intercourse, and trade
of the Carthaginians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians

London: H.G. Bohn, 1857

is way down-level and surely something even relatively
slightly more up to date is available. I just want somebody
to introduce me to it or present it here.

It's surely significant if there are no Egyptian records
even mentioning Carthage when other lesser nations that
flourished between ~800BCE - ~200BCE are on record. It
implies AE knew nothing about a major empire not so
terribly far away on the same continent.

I imagine the west being Amenti and tied in to the
Dwat may have hampered AE trade and travel in that
direction. Other than the neighboring Tjehenu, AE
knew
not of the peoples further west until they threatened Egypt.

There was no Egyptian sea power in the Mediterranean.
Being able to build ships and using them along the
Nile and to a limited offshore extent in the Red Sea
does not equate to high seas maritime ventures as
undertaken by ancient Aegeans and ancient Levantines
of whose expeditions we have numerous records and imperial
colonies in the case of the latter.

Having sea worthy vessels or the technology to produce
them is not the same as actual using them and leaving
records of their use.

All I'm asking for is the same kind of explicit records
for Mediterranean trade or travel that we find in the
overland and riverain trade to various nations throughout
the length of dynastic Egypt's history.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The point is that trade with Carthage came late because Carthage did not appear on the map until late, in Egyptian terms. Carthage did not become a Mediterranean power until after the dynastic period was almost over. Therefore, trade with Carthage is not any sort of significant factor in the time frame of dynastic Egyptian Naval power in the ancient Mediterranean. Likewise, you have the oldest images of seaworthy ships and ships at sea in Egypt, yet somehow that doesn't count as evidence? How much evidence do you need? Or is it because the Eurocentrics said that those things were just "river boats", or ceremonial, then it doesn't count?

The time period of ancient Egyptian naval power exerting an influence on the Mediterranean goes back to 3000 B.C. and earlier. From this time period, there are few remaining ACTUAL BOATS in existence, except for those FOUND IN THE TOMBS OF EGYPT. Doesn't that tell you something? Or, because the Egyptologists say they are merely funerary boats, they don't count in Mediterranean maritime history, we should ignore them?

Well once again, the problem isn't evidence, it is the INTERPRETATION of the evidence, especially from a Eurocentric point of view that causes the problem.

Case in point. Look at the ships from the monuments of the Old Kingdom, like those of Sahure and others. They are EXACTLY the same types of ships that would be built by LATER cultures elsewhere in the Mediterranean. Think that is merely a coincidence? I think not.

Good example:

Doesn't this vase and the ships remind you of the artifacts found in the Nile Valley from over a thousand years prior?

(Mycenean shipping Amphora 1700 B.C.)

View the rest of the images on this site:

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/07_merchant_ships.html

and note how much those Minoan and Mycenean vessels resemble this, from 1000 years earlier:


In fact many of those images look like reproductions of scenes from Egyptian art 1000 years earlier. And also note how the "funny shape" of the Minoan and Mycenean boats is not called into question as to their sea worthiness, but the EXACT SAME kind of boat in Egypt from 1000 years earlier IS QUESTIONED as being sea worthy? Now who is kidding who?

Also note that some of the earliest boats allegedly used in Greece were papyrus boats. These boats were used for going to the Sea and some try and put the age of this technology in Greece back to 7000 B.C., but with no evidence. Somehow I sense a double standard, whereas Greece and other places are credited with ancient seagoing abilities with little or no evidence, while ancient Egypt with a continuous record and tradition of boats in ALL ASPECTS of their culture get no credit for ANYTHING.......

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ships/Ships.htm

Like I said, get rid of the Eurocentric nonsense and the evidence is plain to see.


Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 14 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mystery Solver:
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:

^ But I thought historians' problem is to admit that Egyptians were indigenous Africans in the first place.

It is questionable that all historians have the problem that you are referring to. Many of the studies and data posted here, are not the inventions of posters here; just that some of us are faster learners than others.
Sharp as a tack, boy, as always, Super car. [Smile]

Anyways Djehuti, the scholars with the problem (as I'm sure you know not have)

have a problem with black Africans and acheivement, to be more clear.

Not simply a black "Egypt".

Obviously, they don't even believe the crap they propagate about "K-zoids". So it's as you say with your Eurocentric dogma rules...

number 8 infact...

[Wink]

Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Are you saying AEs stopped leaving documents after
~800 BCE? What trade existed between AE and Carthage?
I want to know about it.

I already admitted the only research I've read on the matter

Arnold Hermann Ludwig Heeren
Historical researches into the politics, intercourse, and trade
of the Carthaginians, Ethiopians, and Egyptians

London: H.G. Bohn, 1857

is way down-level and surely something even relatively
slightly more up to date is available. I just want somebody
to introduce me to it or present it here.

It's surely significant if there are no Egyptian records
even mentioning Carthage when other lesser nations that
flourished between ~800BCE - ~200BCE are on record. It
implies AE knew nothing about a major empire not so
terribly far away on the same continent.

I imagine the west being Amenti and tied in to the
Dwat may have hampered AE trade and travel in that
direction. Other than the neighboring Tjehenu, AE
knew
not of the peoples further west until they threatened Egypt.

There was no Egyptian sea power in the Mediterranean.
Being able to build ships and using them along the
Nile and to a limited offshore extent in the Red Sea
does not equate to high seas maritime ventures as
undertaken by ancient Aegeans and ancient Levantines
of whose expeditions we have numerous records and imperial
colonies in the case of the latter.

Having sea worthy vessels or the technology to produce
them is not the same as actual using them and leaving
records of their use.

All I'm asking for is the same kind of explicit records
for Mediterranean trade or travel that we find in the
overland and riverain trade to various nations throughout
the length of dynastic Egypt's history.

quote:
Originally posted by Doug M:
The point is that trade with Carthage came late because Carthage did not appear on the map until late, in Egyptian terms. Carthage did not become a Mediterranean power until after the dynastic period was almost over. Therefore, trade with Carthage is not any sort of significant factor in the time frame of dynastic Egyptian Naval power in the ancient Mediterranean. Likewise, you have the oldest images of seaworthy ships and ships at sea in Egypt, yet somehow that doesn't count as evidence? How much evidence do you need? Or is it because the Eurocentrics said that those things were just "river boats", or ceremonial, then it doesn't count?

The time period of ancient Egyptian naval power exerting an influence on the Mediterranean goes back to 3000 B.C. and earlier. From this time period, there are few remaining ACTUAL BOATS in existence, except for those FOUND IN THE TOMBS OF EGYPT. Doesn't that tell you something? Or, because the Egyptologists say they are merely funerary boats, they don't count in Mediterranean maritime history, we should ignore them?

Well once again, the problem isn't evidence, it is the INTERPRETATION of the evidence, especially from a Eurocentric point of view that causes the problem.

Case in point. Look at the ships from the monuments of the Old Kingdom, like those of Sahure and others. They are EXACTLY the same types of ships that would be built by LATER cultures elsewhere in the Mediterranean. Think that is merely a coincidence? I think not.

Good example:

Doesn't this vase and the ships remind you of the artifacts found in the Nile Valley from over a thousand years prior?

(Mycenean shipping Amphora 1700 B.C.)

View the rest of the images on this site:

http://www.artsales.com/ARTistory/Ancient_Ships/07_merchant_ships.html

and note how much those Minoan and Mycenean vessels resemble this, from 1000 years earlier:


In fact many of those images look like reproductions of scenes from Egyptian art 1000 years earlier. And also note how the "funny shape" of the Minoan and Mycenean boats is not called into question as to their sea worthiness, but the EXACT SAME kind of boat in Egypt from 1000 years earlier IS QUESTIONED as being sea worthy? Now who is kidding who?

Also note that some of the earliest boats allegedly used in Greece were papyrus boats. These boats were used for going to the Sea and some try and put the age of this technology in Greece back to 7000 B.C., but with no evidence. Somehow I sense a double standard, whereas Greece and other places are credited with ancient seagoing abilities with little or no evidence, while ancient Egypt with a continuous record and tradition of boats in ALL ASPECTS of their culture get no credit for ANYTHING.......

http://www.mlahanas.de/Greeks/Ships/Ships.htm

Like I said, get rid of the Eurocentric nonsense and the evidence is plain to see.


I don't know bro Takrur but I think you are missing what I have been saying.

Going back to 2500 BC where is there ANY evidence of ANY sort of boats, maritime trade or activity ANYWHERE on earth? Boats, ropes and other sorts of materials don't often last 5,000 years for us to examine. Hence the oldest plank boats in the world are those found IN THE TOMBS OF EGYPT. The tombs of the Old Kingdom have images of the Egyptians sailing including ON THE SEA. The first voyages to Punt were in the OLD KINGDOM.

quote:

It is untrue, as Hatshepsut claimed, that her voyage was the first in history. It has been an ancient tradition to undertake that trip since the 4th dynasty, when a son of "Khufu" (Cheops) did it. Other voyages were mentioned during the reign of "Sahu-Ra" in the early 5th dynasty, when Egyptians began trading with the Land of Punt. Another expedition has been mentioned during the reign of "Pepi II" (6th dynasty). The caravan leader, "Harkhuf" has written to the 9-year old king describing a dancing dwarf he was bringing back to Egypt.

From: http://www.touregypt.net/magazine/mag03012001/magf6.htm

The monuments of Sahure also show them sailing to the Levant. There is plenty of evidence showing trade with peoples around the Mediterranean at this time. These are some of the oldest records of sea commerce anywhere on earth. All of this is 1500 years prior to the existence of a Carthage.

quote:

Sneferu had a number of children from his wives. Other than Hetepheres, he had at least two other wives who gave him six children. The evidence suggests that the sons of his first wife were buried in Maidum, before he moved to the newer burial grounds in Dashur. No one knows why he didn't move back to Saqqara, like everyone else.

His military campaigns against the Nubians and Libyans are recorded on the Palermo stone, and he began to trade with the Mediterranean nations. To supply Egypt with the cedar wood they needed for building the royal barges and doors of palaces, he sent a fleet to Lebanon to trade for it. Like previous pharaohs, he led expeditions to the Sinai -- and was later revered as a god in that area.

From: http://www.phouka.com/pharaoh/pharaoh/dynasties/dyn04/01sneferu.html

quote:

Although there are very few Egyptian artifacts from Canaanite contexts that can be dated securely to the Twelfth Dynasty, one particularly notable exception is a series of 47 bullae, or clay sealings, found in a sealed – and hence archaeologically secure – fill at the site of Ashkelon on the souther coast of present-day Israel. These bullae would have been used to seal clay jars prior to the shipment of commodities, and the very prosaic nature of the sealings also implies that, in addition to the highly visible and highly valuable ‘luxury’ goods, such as the gold objects found at Byblos, subsistence commodities were being transshipped in bulk throughout the eastern Mediterranean as well. The importance of the exchange in bulk items as well as in luxury or precious goods has a significant bearing on the types of exchange systems in the ancient world, and may very well also be reflected in the type of transport, contact, and shipping undertaken by these polities.

Finally, both Cypriote and Minoan pottery has been found in Egypt and at Canaanite sites, while
Egyptian material has been excavated from Middle Bronze Age contexts on both Cyprus and Crete. The
presence of this imported material clearly indicates exchange and contact, but, it should be noted that, without additional evidence or supporting materials, the nature of this exchange and the mechanisms by which it was carried out remains almost completely unknown.


From: http://web.mit.edu/deeparch/www/events/2002conference/papers/Cohen.pdf

quote:

Died in 2589 BCE

Egypt

First King of the Fourth Dynasty Alternate spellings: Sneferu, Snofru, Soris

Name of ship(s) he sailed on: Snefru is credited as possibly using cedar wood to build Nile River boats up to about 50 meters (about 170 ft.) in length

Primary Goal:
To establish trading routes along the Mediterranean, and to advance Egypt’s economy
Achievement:
Snefru is credited with being the first Pharaoh of Egypt’s Fourth Dynasty (about 2600-2450 BCE). He ruled for an estimated 24 years. He was not declared king through birthright like most kings, but was declared king through marriage. He established trading routes along the Mediterranean, and greatly advanced his empire. Of all of his contributions, his most famous is the Bent Pyramid of Dahshur.

From: https://www.mariner.org/exploration/index.php?type=explorer&id=45
(Note: there was no Phoenicia in 2500 B.C.)

So what does Carthage have to do with the development and history of Egyptian maritime capabilities? Also, I already posted images showing how later Minoan art shows ships remarkably similar to those of Khufu. Do you think that this is a mere coincidence? I also showed you the ancient paintings from old kingdom tombs and vases that are almost exactly like those of later Minoan art and vases. Again what are you saying that this is mere coincidence? What more evidence do you need? Or are you saying you need "official" word from Western European writers who will say that the boats of Khufu are the predecessors of the Minoans and show that there was influence from Egypt to the Mediterranean? Of course they won't do that and it isn't because of lack of evidence.

And where did you get the idea that Egypt was not trading with Carthage? Pharoah Necho and Necho II both had or initiated trading relationships with Carthage.

Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ImageMaster

You're not coming from where I'm going.

Why you even mentioned western writers
is beyond me when what I've asked for
is AE text. What's your problem that
you want to besmirch me as dependent
on the west (which by the way we all
are as we all read and build on the
writings of western educated scholars)
because you can't write one pro-African
paragraph without dragging in your
anti-white biases.

Unlike you I can write African independent
of even mentioning Europe/European Americas
just the way self-confident historians of
other nations and cultures can do without
constantly harping on how bad Euros were
to them -- sheesh how many times we gotta
hear that, we know that part by heart --
or using them as some great majestic
yardstick to measure up to. That's your
baggage. I chose to travel without it.

------------------------------------------

All forum members

I'll repost my response to the subject
header (and the fact that Egypt did not
have wide ranging navies as did other
contemporaneous maritime nations) none
of the questions therein have even been
attempted answered by anyone yet.

And please don't tell me about the resounding naval
defeat of the invading Sea Peoples which was executed
in Egyptian perimetre waters not at high sea. Egypt just
simply didn't use her vessels in a manner of demonstrative
sea power anywhere far from home.

I'm not generalizing or anachronistically
flattening all eras into one dimension.

There are specific things I want to know
and no one has helped me to learn them.
I'm talking recorded trade (routes) not sociology.


1 - lack of contact with Mediterranean Africans
2 - hiring of Lebanese ships, shipping, and shippers
3 - primary documents of trade with
_____ Cyrenaica
_____ Tripolitania
_____ Tunisia
_____ Algeria
_____ Morocco


quote:
Please explain to me the lack of Egyptian contact
with other Africans along the Mediterranean shore
if they sailed that sea themselves.

And I would also like to know why they hired the
ancient Lebanese to do so much ship sailing stuff
for them if they were so adept at it themselves.

I mean I can't find any evidence of major trade
even between Egypt an Cyrenaica less lone Egypt
and Carthage. Am I looking in the wrong sources
(Heeren's more than a century old "trade" book)?


Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I where you diverge is in your definition of "contemporaneous". You are talking about civilizations that did not exist prior to 1000 B.C. for the most part and those that did exist we do have records for trade with Egypt. So the question SHOULD be what happened to the Egyptian navy between the time of Rameses II and the 23rd Dynasty.

The period after the 21st dynasty is generally considered as the LATE PERIOD and most define this time as a period of GREAT DECLINE in Egypt, relative to its power and expanse in the "golden age" of earlier periods. Therefore, you are talking about an Egypt that did not have control over the wood and timber of Byblos. Did not have the powerful army and navy of prior periods and who did not have the ability to control large areas outside its own borders. This is the period that saw the rise of the Phoenicians, Carthagenians, Numidians, Mauretanians and other groups WHO DID NOT EXIST when Egypt was in its "golden age".

The cultures that DID exist DID trade and have contact with Egypt and the evidence is there for it. So why are you asking about the power and might of the Egyptian navy when Egypt was in the last stages of its existence and nominally under the control of various foreign Empires? And why would you equate the status and power of Egypt at this waning point of its civilization with Egypt at the height of its power?

Egypt had a navy from the OLD KINGDOM and they SENT BOATS to the sea to TRADE with those cultures and people that existed at the time in the Mediterranean as well as along the Red Sea. The fact that we don't have a full archeaological record of every ship and every artifact that may have been sent via sea at this time is to be expected as there isn't much in the way of maritime evidence for ANY culture from this period, due to its antiquity. But we do have A TON of evidence IN EGYPT from this time, on tomb walls in writing and in the burials of the boats themselves. So again, what are you saying that all these boats never went to sea? How do you know that? As another writer put it, there is LESS evidence in terms of actual boats and other "maritime" artifacts from the Agean in the time period of the Old Kingdom, yet most authors say these people travelled the seas. Yet and still you have TONS of boats and other evidence from Egypt and somehow people say "there isn't enough evidence". I mean what in the world do you expect from 5000 years ago? And just think, if the Egyptians DIDN'T bury boats and DIDN'T bury models and DIDN'T make artwork and carvings in their burials, they would think they had NO NAVY AT ALL sea or river.

Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Please, if you can't answer my questions don't
go on with your generalizations telling me things
I knew about decades ago and acting like I said
AE knew absolutely nothing about shipbuilding or
never launched a vessel into the Nile or Red Sea.

I'm asking about littoral North Africa and you've
proven by your replies that you know absolutely
nothing about sea relations between ancient Egypt
and the ancient North African littoral.

Thank you for re-emphasizing my lack of textual
or pictorial resources left on record by the AEs
of any such enterprises.

Now can someone please fill in the gap if possible.

Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Doug M
Member
Member # 7650

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Doug M     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
ImageMaster

All forum members

I'll repost my response to the subject
header (and the fact that Egypt did not
have wide ranging navies as did other
contemporaneous maritime nations) none
of the questions therein have even been
attempted answered by anyone yet.

And please don't tell me about the resounding naval
defeat of the invading Sea Peoples which was executed
in Egyptian perimetre waters not at high sea. Egypt just
simply didn't use her vessels in a manner of demonstrative
sea power anywhere far from home.

I'm not generalizing or anachronistically
flattening all eras into one dimension.

There are specific things I want to know
and no one has helped me to learn them.
I'm talking recorded trade (routes) not sociology.


1 - lack of contact with Mediterranean Africans
2 - hiring of Lebanese ships, shipping, and shippers
3 - primary documents of trade with
_____ Cyrenaica
_____ Tripolitania
_____ Tunisia
_____ Algeria
_____ Morocco

Don't get me wrong, but I fundamentally disagree with what seems to be your premise. One of them being that there is no evidence of Egyptian sea battles far from home and the other that if they didn't trade with other coastal Africans by sea, that they somehow did not have a capable Navy....

Thutmosis III is one Egyptian that used ships far from home, with some historians going so far as to say he was the father of the combined arms battle by using ships in his campaigns in the Northern Levant. This is one reason he is called the Napoleon of Egypt. Therefore, the Egyptians had a navy, they used it far from home and whether or not they had extensive sea trading networks with other Northern African states in the Dynastic period from 3500 B.C. to 1000 BC does not change this.

quote:

This first campaign revealed Thutmose to be the military genius of his time. He understood the value of logistics and lines of supply, the necessity of rapid movement and sudden surprise attack. He lead by example and was also probably the first person in history to really utilise sea-power to support his campaigns.

Map showing Megiddo Megiddo was his first objective because it was a key point and had to be taken at all costs. When he reached Aaruna Thutmose held a council with all his generals. There were two routes to Megiddo a long, easy and level road around the hills, which the enemy expected Thutmose to take, and a route which was narrow, difficult and cut through the hills. His generals advised him to take the easy road through the hills, saying "horse must follow behind horse and man behind man also, and our vanguard will be engaged while our rearguard is at Aaruna without fighting" But Thutmose's reply to this was "As I live, as I am the beloved of Ra and praised by my father Amon, I will go on the narrow road. Let those who will, go on the roads you have mentioned; and let anyone who will, follow my Majesty"

From: http://www.eyelid.co.uk/k-q3.htm

quote:

ANCIENT EGYPTIAN JOINT OPERATIONS IN THE LEBANON UNDER THUTMOSE III (1451-1438 BCE)

Most people are aware that the Ancient Egyptians conducted military operations in Syria-Palestine, some may have heard mention of King Thutmose III at the Battle of Megiddo, but few will have heard about how Egyptian naval forces influenced events ashore during Thutmose III's subsequent operations in the Lebanon.(footnote 1)

The history of Syria-Palestine aptly demonstrates the strategic advantage that lay with the maritime powers that controlled these waters. During the Late Bronze Age, Thutmose III's ability to maintain sea control in the Eastern Mediterranean enabled him to effectively project Egyptian military power ashore in the Lebanon. It is a truism, confirmed during the Crusades, World War I, and the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, that armies cannot operate effectively in the Syria-Palestine littoral without fleets controlling the adjacent Mediterranean Sea.

By the time of Thutmose III the Egyptians had a long established overland trade route across the Sinai, coupled with a strong influence over the cities of southern Palestine. They also had a mature maritime trading relationship with the coastal cities of the Lebanon, especially Byblos (about 32 km north of modern Beirut).

From: http://www.navy.gov.au/spc/semaphore/issue16_2006.html

Almost all historians acknowledge Thutmosis III as one of the fathers of the sea land battle that became typical of later Mediterranean warfare. And he was only following the precedent established by those who PRECEDED him in the Old Kingdom.

I agree that there isn't much info about any maritime trade contact between Egypt and the following countries because the first credible evidence of sea commerce with these people started with the Phoenicians somewhere around or after 900 B.C.:
Cyrenaica
Tripolitania
Tunisia
Algeria
Morocco

Posts: 6166 | Registered: May 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 14 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
ImageMaster

Thanks for the above tipoff.

It's a holiday weekend and the official end of
summer in the USA but if you have the time can
you drudge up some images from Sahure's mortuary
temple, Wenis' causeway, or from el-Lisht depicting
Old Kingdom seagoing vessels? Thanks.

Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I think I'm going to look up some stuff on West African boats.
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
bump
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 2 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
speakin of boats there's an informationally awesome boat thread, here:

http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=8;t=005364;p=1#000000

 -

and I think I know where some new trolls may be comin from:

showthread.php?s=6e8a0d6ce9fbb7d83ef00937d911aefc&t=419813&page=8

^which comes after storm front [.] org /

Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 1 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
One of the next things I plan on investigating is Malian expiditions into the Atlantic... Clyde?
Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike111
Member
Member # 9361

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mike111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Please explain to me the lack of Egyptian contact
with other Africans along the Mediterranean shore
if they sailed that sea themselves.

And I would also like to know why they hired the
ancient Lebanese to do so much ship sailing stuff
for them if they were so adept at it themselves.

I mean I can't find any evidence of major trade
even between Egypt an Cyrenaica less lone Egypt
and Carthage. Am I looking in the wrong sources
(Heeren's more than a century old "trade" book)?

"why they hired the ancient Lebanese"

"ancient Lebanese" is that anything like ancient Iraqis, ancient Iranians, ancient Turks, ancient Europeans?

Funny - I never heard of any of them. Which book did you find it in?

Posts: 15682 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
Member
Member # 15718

Icon 1 posted      Profile for zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
All forum members

I'm not generalizing or anachronistically
flattening all eras into one dimension.

There are specific things I want to know
and no one has helped me to learn them.
I'm talking recorded trade (routes) not sociology.


1 - lack of contact with Mediterranean Africans
2 - hiring of Lebanese ships, shipping, and shippers
3 - primary documents of trade with
_____ Cyrenaica
_____ Tripolitania
_____ Tunisia
_____ Algeria
_____ Morocco


Please explain to me the lack of Egyptian contact
with other Africans along the Mediterranean shore
if they sailed that sea themselves.

And I would also like to know why they hired the
ancient Lebanese to do so much ship sailing stuff
for them if they were so adept at it themselves.

I mean I can't find any evidence of major trade
even between Egypt an Cyrenaica less lone Egypt
and Carthage. Am I looking in the wrong sources
(Heeren's more than a century old "trade"
book)?

Documented sources are thin on wide ranging AE
maritime expeditions in the sense you refer to.
Perhaps specialized academic sources might show
more but Time-Life has an older 1981 book out
called “The Ancient Mariners.” It doesn’t show
continent-spanning voyages by the AE’s like famous
Chinese Admiral Cheng Ho, but it does indicate that
there was extensive trade and contact throughout the
Eastern Mediterranean, and also into the Aegean and
the Persian Gulf.

There is little information on Northwest Africa in the
book or even on the web re direct Egyptian trade. Perhaps
the northwest region had to await expansion of
supply and demand, and better ships before it was
drawn more fully into overall Mediterranean commerce. The
Phonecian and Greek expansion, coming long after
Egyptian developments may have provided the
impetus. The rise of Carthage certainly boosted trade
in the Northwest area, not to mention the resources
of inland Africa drawn upon by that city state- for
trade or war (Hannibal's famous Numidian cavalry is
just one example).

As for documents, the book does mention papyrus
journals kept by AE merchants and or officials. One
documents a shipwreck in the Red Sea, another a
clash with pirates near Byblos. Carved inscriptions on
stone also record Egyptian vessels, trade and
movements, and clay models have been found in
Mesopotamia similar to Egyptian boats. There is
some documentary evidence suggesting that the
Egyptians bought entire vessels from Greek or
Lebanese (today’s terms) suppliers. In the Armana
letters for example, is a request from a pharoah to the King of
Alashiya (Cyprus) to build ships for the Egyptian
navy. However it should be noted that the Egyptians
built a large number of sea-going vessels themselves
during the New Kingdom, using imported lumber.

Most likely the pharoahs found it cheaper to simply
contract out a portion of their building program to
foreigner builders who had ample supplies of suitable
wood and workers in their native countries. It would
make perfect sense in a land where heavy forestation
for supplies of lumber were scarce.
http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/navy.htm

You are generally correct that the AEs stayed in the
eastern Mediterranean zone, compared to say the
Chinese, or even the Polynesian mariners, who in
their canoes, not only spanned massive areas of Pacific, but even
reached the frozen wastes of Antartica ( a Maori war
canoe according to the 1984 Encyclopedia Britannica
article ‘Antartica’).

Posts: 4194 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 13 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
Funny - I never heard of any of them. Which book did you find it in?

Ancient Lebanese is like saying ancient "Egyptian" or ancient Chinese, one of which you've typed on here, correct?

So why front?

Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Uh, getting back to the topic...

The ancient Greeks made it clear in their writings that the Egyptians were the first people in the world to build ships and seafare. This also reminds me of Hebrew/Biblical writings specifically in Genesis which state that Egypt produced the Caphtorim (Cretans) and another group of people called Caslohim which in turn produced the 1st generation of Philistines (as opposed to the 2nd generation of later Philistines who were a different people).

Takruri do you have any more info on this?

Posts: 22723 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike111
Member
Member # 9361

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mike111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^^^There WAS an ancient Egypt, there WAS an ancient China. There was NOT an ancient Lebanon; that country did not exist until 1943.
Posts: 15682 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Not sure exactly what you're asking put start a
thread for it or find and continue a thread that's
dealt with it and we can take it from there.


quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Uh, getting back to the topic...

The ancient Greeks made it clear in their writings that the Egyptians were the first people in the world to build ships and seafare. This also reminds me of Hebrew/Biblical writings specifically in Genesis which state that Egypt produced the Caphtorim (Cretans) and another group of people called Caslohim which in turn produced the 1st generation of Philistines (as opposed to the 2nd generation of later Philistines who were a different people).

Takruri do you have any more info on this?


Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
If you ever cracked open a history book you might be dangerous.
Until then, לְּבָנֹן for those who may want to know factual info
appears in the oldest of documents in Mesopotamia, the
Levant, and Egypt where it's transliterated as RMNN.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
^^^There WAS an ancient Egypt, there WAS an ancient China. There was NOT an ancient Lebanon; that country did not exist until 1943.


Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike111
Member
Member # 9361

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mike111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^^^That's Veerryy impressive, Bamboozle them with Bullsh!t eh, nice, very nice. But the question was NOT לְּבָנֹן or RMNN, it was Lebanon.

If there is anyone out there that can read squiggly lines, does that say what I think it says, i.e. Dumb-asses, they have no clue that I am a homeboy in south central L.A.

Posts: 15682 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Are really that ignorant of ancient languages that
you don't know what word לְּבָנֹן and RMNN are? Yes,
of course you're that ignorant, and worse.

How does one verify a quesionable ancient word? By
perusing ancient nomenclature in context within ancient
texts.

You've just admitted you're a pure dumbass farting
opinion unbacked by primary documentation hoping for
mass appeal by grandstanding for supposed fellow
ignoramuses rooting for a SCLA fakeass homeboy.

Not sorry to say, more is expected of you HERE.
And SCLA folk would whoop your ass for fronting
on them being nothing but stupid stereotypes.

Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Whatbox
Member
Member # 10819

Icon 10 posted      Profile for Whatbox   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
^^^There WAS an ancient Egypt, there WAS an ancient China. There was NOT an ancient Lebanon; that country did not exist until 1943.

Ancient "Chinese" didn't call themselves "Chinese" and as for Egypt, don't tell anyone but there was an entirely different state there.

In sincerity for those who don't know, TaWy/Kemet/Ta Mery =/= Arab Republic of Egypt.

Posts: 5555 | From: Tha 5th Dimension. | Registered: Apr 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike111
Member
Member # 9361

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mike111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Are really that ignorant of ancient languages that
you don't know what word לְּבָנֹן and RMNN are? Yes,
of course you're that ignorant, and worse.

How does one verify a quesionable ancient word? By
perusing ancient nomenclature in context within ancient
texts.

You've just admitted you're a pure dumbass farting
opinion unbacked by primary documentation hoping for
mass appeal by grandstanding for supposed fellow
ignoramuses rooting for a SCLA fakeass homeboy.

Not sorry to say, more is expected of you HERE.
And SCLA folk would whoop your ass for fronting
on them being nothing but stupid stereotypes.

WOW; What a mouthful! he he, but you still didn't answer the question. i.e. what word or words in the English language correlate with the squiggly lines לְּבָנֹן or RMNN, that mean the English word Lebanon, OR even translates back to an entity which corresponds to modern Lebanon.
Posts: 15682 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Takruri, why do you even waste your time with this clown above?
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Not sure exactly what you're asking put start a
thread for it or find and continue a thread that's
dealt with it and we can take it from there.

Since you seem to be familiar with what Greek texts say about Africa and the Levant, I thought you would know which specific text by which author spoke of the first seafarers coming from Egypt.
Posts: 22723 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova
Member
Member # 15718

Icon 1 posted      Profile for zarahan- aka Enrique Cardova     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Uh, getting back to the topic...

The ancient Greeks made it clear in their writings that the Egyptians were the first people in the world to build ships and seafare. This also reminds me of Hebrew/Biblical writings specifically in Genesis which state that Egypt produced the Caphtorim (Cretans) and another group of people called Caslohim which in turn produced the 1st generation of Philistines (as opposed to the 2nd generation of later Philistines who were a different people).

I don't think the Egyptians were the first to build
watercraft or use them on rivers, seas or oceans.
Such vessels were independently invented in a variety
of places. Dugout or reed canoes or rafts for example
have been around a long time. Old vessels too have
been found in Mesopotamia. The Greek writers of
course could only speak from their limited
experience.

As to the Genesis narrative, Mizraim (Egypt)
produced the Casluhim, out of whom came
the Caphorium and Phillistines. Casluhim would
be the forerunner of either Philistines or
Capthorim. Do you have any sources showing
the Capthorim to be linked to the Cretans or
Minoans? Or to the 2 generations of Philistines?
Was the second different from the first
produced by Mizraim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casluhim shows one
writer who links the forerunning Casluhim to
the Colchians of the Black Sea region.

Posts: 4194 | Registered: Aug 2008  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
That's for your dumb ass to figure out, masturbator.
Quit acting like JackOff-enbach and learn, baby learn.
Then you can be on the way to add something intelligent
to a discussion instead of fabricated from the crack
of your ass bullshit. Lebanon not existing until 1943, hah!
That's the stupidest **** you've posted to date, jink.

quote:
Originally posted by Mike111:
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
Are really that ignorant of ancient languages that
you don't know what word לְּבָנֹן and RMNN are? Yes,
of course you're that ignorant, and worse.

How does one verify a quesionable ancient word? By
perusing ancient nomenclature in context within ancient
texts.

You've just admitted you're a pure dumbass farting
opinion unbacked by primary documentation hoping for
mass appeal by grandstanding for supposed fellow
ignoramuses rooting for a SCLA fakeass homeboy.

Not sorry to say, more is expected of you HERE.
And SCLA folk would whoop your ass for fronting
on them being nothing but stupid stereotypes.

WOW; What a mouthful! he he, but you still didn't answer the question. i.e. what word or words in the English language correlate with the squiggly lines לְּבָנֹן or RMNN, that mean the English word Lebanon, OR even translates back to an entity which corresponds to modern Lebanon.

Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
I dunno. The kid's got potential. If only he'd
stop jackin off and reserve his vitality for
mentality. Well, at least now I know why
he starts off half decent then goes half
cocked. It's true, masturbation damages
the brain!

quote:
Originally posted by Djehuti:
Takruri, why do you even waste your time with this clown above?


Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike111
Member
Member # 9361

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mike111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Sticks, stones, and Mary Palmer; but I'm still waiting for לְּבָנֹן and RMNN.
Posts: 15682 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
And wait you will you, since you can't understand
what was already given to you. It's called primary
evidence from the language of the time, the people,
and the place itself. Once again and pay attention jr

If you ever cracked open a history book you might be dangerous.
Until then, לְּבָנֹן for those who may want to know factual info
appears in the oldest of documents in
1 - Mesopotamia,
2 - the Levant, and
3 - Egypt where it's transliterated as RMNN.

Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Mike111
Member
Member # 9361

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Mike111   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:
And wait you will you, since you can't understand
what was already given to you. It's called primary
evidence from the language of the time, the people,
and the place itself. Once again and pay attention jr

If you ever cracked open a history book you might be dangerous.
Until then, [b]לְּבָנֹן [b]for those who may want to know factual info
appears in the oldest of documents in
1 - Mesopotamia,
2 - the Levant, and
3 - Egypt where it's transliterated as RMNN.

Sorry pal, but the ancient Mesopotamian's used cuneiform NOT the squiggly lines thing.

But for the sake of argument, if they did use the squiggly lines, What books would I find it in?

Posts: 15682 | Registered: Oct 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
alTakruri
Member
Member # 10195

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for alTakruri     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Now repeat after me.

Please Mr. al~Takruri,
teach me the ancient Assyrian script and lexicon
and the ancient Egyptian lexicon,
I'm sorry I said there's no ancient Lebanon
when I don't even know any ancient script or
any ancient language nor delved into any ancient
primary text for supportive material to back my
asinine false assertion nor can I even recognize
the word Lebanon in their own ancient Semitic language.
And on top of that I can't apply a multi-disciplinary
approach because I was too busy dating Rosy Palm to
apply myself to linguistics so I can't understand how
'l' & 'r' and 'b' & 'm' interchange from one language
to another as alveolars and bilabials respectively.

Posts: 7941 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by zarahan:

I don't think the Egyptians were the first to build watercraft or use them on rivers, seas or oceans. Such vessels were independently invented in a variety of places. Dugout or reed canoes or rafts for example have been around a long time. Old vessels too have been found in Mesopotamia. The Greek writers of course could only speak from their limited experience.

The Greeks never said the Egyptians were the first to build watercrafts in general but that they were the first to build large seafaring vessels. Of course this is all according to their lengeds.

quote:
As to the Genesis narrative, Mizraim (Egypt) produced the Casluhim, out of whom came
the Caphorium and Phillistines. Casluhim would
be the forerunner of either Philistines or
Capthorim. Do you have any sources showing
the Capthorim to be linked to the Cretans or
Minoans? Or to the 2 generations of Philistines?
Was the second different from the first
produced by Mizraim?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casluhim shows one
writer who links the forerunning Casluhim to
the Colchians of the Black Sea region.

That's somewhat inaccurate. The Table of Nations specifically says that only the Philistim came from the Casluhim and that the Caphtorim came directly from Mizraim as Caphtorim did, making Caphtor and Caslum siblings.

Anyway, the reason why I point this out is that it not only verifies the Greek legends but that it also verifies the archaeological findings of Evans and others in Crete and in other parts of the Bronze Age southern Mediterranean that link them with Egypt. I'll have to cite a couple of books of read to show this.

Posts: 22723 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 10 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by alTakruri:

Now repeat after me.

Please Mr. al~Takruri,
teach me the ancient Assyrian script and lexicon
and the ancient Egyptian lexicon,
I'm sorry I said there's no ancient Lebanon
when I don't even know any ancient script or
any ancient language nor delved into any ancient
primary text for supportive material to back my
asinine false assertion nor can I even recognize
the word Lebanon in their own ancient Semitic language.
And on top of that I can't apply a multi-disciplinary
approach because I was too busy dating Rosy Palm to
apply myself to linguistics so I can't understand how
'l' & 'r' and 'b' & 'm' interchange from one language
to another as alveolars and bilabials respectively.

Sorry Takruri, but I doubt the moron knows anything about linguistics let alone phonetic shift theories such as Grimm's Law which states a shift in consonants like l to r and vice-versa.

Therefore it's not hard to see that RMNN/ R-M-N-N pronounced something like 'Remenan' could become 'Lebanon' in several thousand years.

And why is that Mike??

 -

Posts: 22723 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 2 pages: 1  2   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2012 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3