posted
Which depictions do we have of ancient Egyptians in foreign art? Are Egyptians for example depicted in ancient Minoan art, or Mycenaean art. Especially Egyptians in traditional Egyptian clothing.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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^ There is actually a considerable number of artistic portrayals of Egyptians by foreigners, but unfortunately the internet shows only a small fraction of it. Asiatic depictions from the Levant and Mesopotamia are not as great as those from Europe and these examples are typically unpainted works or those in which the paint is lost.
As far as European works, perhaps the earliest examples do come from the Aegean namely Minoan. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of Minoan frescoes are not shown in the internet. Oddly enough, most Minoan frescoes I've seen are reproductions in the waiting halls of the ride 'Poseidon's Fury' in Universal Studios theme park in Orlando Florida. I even asked the manager about it and he confirmed they were exact replicas. They are very extensive and detailed and was stunned that Universal would go this far in design. Many of them do depict what I believe to be Africans due to their darker complexions and different features from the Minoans themselves. Unfortunately this was many years ago and I didn't have a smart phone to take the photos.
In the internet I've only seen these two examples.
The so-called 'Captain of the Blacks'
and the lyre player
The first is a reproduction in terms of the head of the black man.
I don't know about the Mycenaeans and have yet to see any examples from them but definitely Classical Greeks had ample artwork depicting Egyptians as exotic melanchroi (black-skinned) peoples.
A favored example would be the contrast bi-cephaloi or double-headed vases with one head depicting a Greek and the other a foreigner, typically African.
A common assumption was that due to the features, such Africans were likely 'Aethiopians' or Sub-Saharans, but many Classical art scholars like Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton who is an Egyptologist specializing in the Greco-Roman period keenly notes that depictions of Egyptians show similar features.
Take for example the popular motif of Herakles and the Egyptian king Busiris which according to the myth Harakles killed.
Dr. Ashton has considerable collection in her museum as well as photos of other Greek and Roman depictions of Egyptians.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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The question is where Egyptians ever represented in their own traditional clothes, as Egyptians in the shape of trade partners, emissaries, foes or similar?
The pictures you show from Knossos and Pylos can not really be proven to be Egyptians, or even Africans, even if it is possible. Regarding the musician at Pylos I seen other Lyre players too depicted rather dark, so maybe they often used foreigners as musicians, or it is a convention. The depictions in Minoan and Mycenaean art are rather complicated since colors seem to represent gender, but also class. Also age has been suggested in some cases.
I have been to Pylos and at least at the time I visited the place there were no hints among the information that any of the paintings should have represented Egyptians.
Many times one can get a bit misleading impression if one see reconstructions. Here is the Captain of the blacks, first the reconstruction, then the actual pieces:
Suffice to say that even todays Cretans and other Greeks can vary so much in skin color that they can be mistaken for other peoples. I have one Greek friend who when he lived here he was often questioned if he was Middle Easterner, or mixed African. Another Greek friend looks like a North European and was often mistaken as a Swede.
The link to Dr Ashtons museum seems not to work.
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Djehuti can you stop trolling please, the topic is Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions and so far you have posted none
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Description Gypsum wall panel relief: Assyrian capture of fortress in Egypt. At the top Assyrians storm the fortress; one tries to set fire to the gate while others undermine walls. Prisoners marched out are recognisable as Nubian soldier of Taharka, wear a single upright feather on their heads; native Egyptians are represented by a group of civilian prisoners with two children on a donkey. Below is a river containing many fish and some crabs.
The figures with the donkey at the bottom in the details above photo, they call these bearded people "native Egyptians". Maybe but I don't see any text or way of proving it.
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The site of Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), near Mosul in what is today northern Iraq,
Nimrud Ivory Panels of Two Egyptian Kings
Two panels from a much larger composition, each showing a youth dressed in Egyptian royal costume grasping a tree formed by a lotus flower arising from a double volute. On the front of the lower right-hand tenon of the right ivory panel, there is an incised inscription in West Semitic script. Excavated by Sir Henry Layard; acquisition date 1848. Phoenician style. Neo-Assyrian Period, 9th to 8th centuries BCE. From the doorway between Rooms V and W of the North-West Palace at Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), Mesopotamia, modern-day Iraq. (The British Museum, London).
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness :^^^ scholars do not say these are Egyptians. The Egyptians are on the front side
Who are they then?
Do you have a source that they aren't Egyptians?
You posted a picture of a vase with some figures on it
Why are you saying those specific figures are Egyptian?
Are we to assume that any picture posted in a thread is an Egyptian until somebody proves it's not?
You have the what is called "the burden of proof" , if not proof, at least some source saying those specific figures are supposed to be Egyptians
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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Hey lioness
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quote:You have the what is called "the burden of proof" , if not proof, at least some source saying those specific figures are supposed to be Egyptians
You're the one who claimed that they aren't Egyptians because "scholars" say so, Yet you haven't named one, Or shown a source that claims they aren't Egyptian
quote:The Egyptians are on the front side
This side?
Or this side?
The burden of proof is on YOU to prove your claim
I wonder why you're so convinced that they aren't Egyptian? Not caucasoid enough? Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehuti can you stop trolling please, the topic is Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions and so far you have posted none
And pray tell, Snaky what makes you think all the images I posted are of non-Egyptians?? Including the vases of Herakles and Busiris?! LOL
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Including the vases of Herakles and Busiris?!
show us something with a caption for once, with a direct still working link to a page with same image that some particular image you posted is supposed to be the fictional king Busiris
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posted
^ Why are you lying? I described every picture in my initial post! The janus faced vases are of Herakle--the hero and Busiris--his foreign foe. Even if Busiris is fictional he was still Egyptian and the myth has some basis in truth because there really was a Busiris city in the Delta of Egypt that was ruled by real kings. As to whether a real Herakles came along and killed one of them is another issue but he was still Egyptian. As for the women faces, Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton said the black woman is Egyptian and nobody as disproven whether the blacks depicted by Minoans were not Egyptian considering their close proximity to the Egyptian Delta.
-------------------- Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan. Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Why are you lying? I described every picture in my initial post!
show us any one of those images > with a live link directly the image and where there, they describe the image as Busiris
this is basic proper citation When I post an image, I put a written title on it or under it and then a live URL DIRECTLY below the image where it is also identified the same way
This way people can check what I say and get further information
That is posting 101
You often leave this out and just post image Then you spout off a lot a detail and purposely leave out these titles and links, because you don't want to be checked
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I wonder why you're so convinced that they aren't Egyptian?
Because don't resemble the figures on the front, one of whom is Busiris. Medjay seems more likely, perhaps Busiris' police
It seems with this uncertainty it is disingenuous to not post the front side of the vase depicting the well known legend, Herakles killing Busiris which is clear
Instead you post these figures on the back, that are not clearly identifiable
I might think it was more likely if they more closely resembled the figures on the front (or the opposite) They also stand in repetitive formation looking like police. Benjamin Isaac in his book published by Princeton University called 'The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity' that has an illustration of the front of the vase on the cover calls them Nubians (in the text)
_________________________________
Medjay - Wikipedia Medjay (also Medjai, Mazoi, Madjai, Mejay, Egyptian mḏꜣ.j, a nisba of mḏꜣ,) was a demonym used in various ways throughout ancient Egyptian history to refer initially to a nomadic group from Nubia and later as a generic term for desert-ranger police or mercenaries
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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Lioness stop ignoring me
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Because don't resemble the figures on the front, one of whom is Busiris. Medjay seems more likely, perhaps Busiris' police
Pure speculation on your behalf
A moment ago they weren't Egyptians at all since "So many scholars" argue this, Yet you still haven't been able to name ONE because you can't
quote:It seems with this uncertainty it is disingenuous to not post the front side of the vase depicting the well known legend, Herakles killing Busiris which is clear
You're acting as though I haven't posted the other side of the vase and I am triying to hide it to mislead people asif the other side is drastically different
Why have you not posted the other side of the vase ?
Why have you not addressed the other side of the vase? Ive posted it numerous times
I posted one side and you claimed "they aren't Egyptians, the Egyptians are on the other side"
So I posted the other side straight away, this being the third time now, and you don't even acknowledge it because it doesn't suit your narrative. But I'm trying to be disingenuous?
It seems like your the one trying to mislead people and now you're resorting to projecting
Then you ask for a source for the vase presuming that I must be mistaken or its going to be some gotcha moment
To then say that they "they must be Medjay"
Are you stating facts or giving your opinion? Why am I supposed to care about your opinions?
Posts: 200 | From: Nibiru | Registered: Mar 2023
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About one of the eventual Busiris kantharoi, the Musei Vaticani´s site theorizes that the tale and theme is about Egypt, but the very black people on the vase are maybe inspired by more southern people
quote: Attic Kantharos of the Vatican Class (Class M) On this janiform kantharos, with two human heads, the head of Heracles and that of a black African are depicted symmetrically opposed. It has been hypothesised that the two subjects may constitute a reference to the episode of Heracles and Busiris, the mythical Egyptian sovereign who, to keep famine at bay, destined for sacrifice any foreigners who entered Egypt. Among these was Heracles who, returning from the gardens of the Hesperides, was captured and led to the sacrificial altar; he broke his shackles and killed the Pharaoh and his court. There remains the fact that, following contact with Pharaonic Egypt, Greek knowledge of the African world increased from the seventh century B.C. onwards, entering into contact with the Nilotic ethnic African interior. More than an exotic evocation, the confidence with the subject demonstrated by the Athenian ceramic painter could have been due to the real presence of black Africans, introduced as slaves in Athens itself or enrolled as mercenaries, as was the case in the armies of Xerxes around 480 B.C.
There is a book where different depictions of black people in antiquity are presented. Maybe time to get it and get some more flesh on the bones. When I studied classical history and archaeology at the university this aspect of Greek and Roman art was seldom discussed.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Shebithu I noticed you posted these images in reply to this thread called "Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions"
I'm not certain who they are, I can only guess. I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
What leads you to believe they are intended to depict Egyptians?
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: From Roman time comes an idyllized view of the Nile ( detail of a larger mosaic )
Mosaic with a view of the Nile, 100 BC -AD 100. Fragment from the Antikensammlung Berlin.
This Mosaic is very interesting, the picture above is just a small part of a large mosaic, the so called Nile Mosaic which depict the life in and around the Nile from Egypt and further south, even up to lake Tana. It is filled with many rather fantastic creatures, and people of different complexions. These kind of exoticizing Nile motifs seem to have become rather popular in Roman art. Obviously the Nile and its surroundings were seen as quite exotic by many Romans.
The whole Nile Mosaic. Most of it is located in the Palazzo Barberini in Palestrina, Italy
If one study its details it is really a feast for the eye.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The question is where Egyptians ever represented in their own traditional clothes, as Egyptians in the shape of trade partners, emissaries, foes or similar?
The pictures you show from Knossos and Pylos can not really be proven to be Egyptians, or even Africans, even if it is possible. Regarding the musician at Pylos I seen other Lyre players too depicted rather dark, so maybe they often used foreigners as musicians, or it is a convention. The depictions in Minoan and Mycenaean art are rather complicated since colors seem to represent gender, but also class. Also age has been suggested in some cases.
I have been to Pylos and at least at the time I visited the place there were no hints among the information that any of the paintings should have represented Egyptians.
Many times one can get a bit misleading impression if one see reconstructions. Here is the Captain of the blacks, first the reconstruction, then the actual pieces:
Suffice to say that even todays Cretans and other Greeks can vary so much in skin color that they can be mistaken for other peoples. I have one Greek friend who when he lived here he was often questioned if he was Middle Easterner, or mixed African. Another Greek friend looks like a North European and was often mistaken as a Swede.
The link to Dr Ashtons museum seems not to work.
We have been over the Busiris vase before on this forum and it is quite clear that it represents Hercules killing the mythical Egyptian king Busiris. So it is a depiction of Egyptians in Greek art.
As for the depiction of the black runners from Minoan Crete, there is no doubt that they would be Africans. And there are numerous lines of evidence for this. One is the mythology of the Trojan war, which includes the reference to Memnon as a King of Ethiopia participating in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon
And another source of evidence is from the Nile valley where the tomb of Rekhmire shows Puntites listed as having similar loin cloths to the Cretans also depicted in the tomb.
Men from Punt in the tomb of Rekhmire:
quote: A myrrh tree being carried by two men, will be for an attempted planting. The Puntites also bring gold, elephant tusks, ebony, ostrich eggs and feathers, leopard skins, giraffe tails, collars besides some live animals: cheetah (see bs-38418), monkeys, hamadryas baboons, ibexes. The men have a dark skin tone ranging from red to black. They are dressed in a loincloth with a flap, which goes down between their legs, and has a colourful border.
As for the depiction of the black runners from Minoan Crete, there is no doubt that they would be Africans.
And another source of evidence is from the Nile valley where the tomb of Rekhmire shows Puntites
The thread is: Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions, not runners in Minoa or Puntites in Egyptian art although Djehuti started with the runners, I don't know why
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Tazarah
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Lioness please
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quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: About one of the eventual Busiris kantharoi, the Musei Vaticani´s site theorizes that the tale and theme is about Egypt, but the very black people on the vase are maybe inspired by more southern people
quote: Attic Kantharos of the Vatican Class (Class M) On this janiform kantharos, with two human heads, the head of Heracles and that of a black African are depicted symmetrically opposed. It has been hypothesised that the two subjects may constitute a reference to the episode of Heracles and Busiris, the mythical Egyptian sovereign who, to keep famine at bay, destined for sacrifice any foreigners who entered Egypt. Among these was Heracles who, returning from the gardens of the Hesperides, was captured and led to the sacrificial altar; he broke his shackles and killed the Pharaoh and his court. There remains the fact that, following contact with Pharaonic Egypt, Greek knowledge of the African world increased from the seventh century B.C. onwards, entering into contact with the Nilotic ethnic African interior. More than an exotic evocation, the confidence with the subject demonstrated by the Athenian ceramic painter could have been due to the real presence of black Africans, introduced as slaves in Athens itself or enrolled as mercenaries, as was the case in the armies of Xerxes around 480 B.C.
Drinking cup (kantharos) in the form of heads of Herakles and an African man Attributed to Class M: The Vatican Class Culture: Greek Date: ca. 470 BC Place made: Greece Medium: Terracotta, red-figure technique San Antonio Museum of Art
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what is the description of the 2D figures depicted in the flared portions atop each of the heads?
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Regarding the so called Captain of the blacks
Two renderings where one can see the reconstructed parts and the original pieces.
There are only one really visible runner in the Captain of the blacks fresco. Then there are fragments of another mans thigh and back of his head. It is impossible to prove if they were Africans, Egyptians or just Minoans colored in dark because of artistic convention.
To draw any conclusion about Africans or Egyptians from those fragments is to make a hen out of a feather.
Or as they say in the article I cited
quote: In this post, I examine a fresco which has excited debate among archaeologists and Afrocentrics, and everyone in between: The Captain of the Blacks fresco. ---- There must have been black Africans at Knossos, just as there were probably Egyptians and Hellenes and Canaanites and Libyans and Babylonians, even though the physical evidence for them living in Crete is scant, indeed.
Better wait for a day when we find actual tombs of Egyptians or Africans on Crete (preferably with preserved DNA), or at least better pictorial evidence of Egyptians or other Africans.
We know from other lines of evidence that there were contacts between Egypt and the Aegeans, no one denies that, but we do not know how many Egyptians or Africans actually lived on Crete or in Mycenaean Greece
And the exact skin color of the ancient Cretans we do not really know. We know from their DNA that they were relatively similar to todays Cretans and also Sardinians. We can not trust only pictorial evidence with all of it´s symbolism.
And even if we trust it we can see that the pictures can be included in the color variation of even todays Cretans and Greeks. We do not have to draw a lot of fanciful conclusions about black Minoans or Africans.
And as I mentioned before, I have been to Greece and I seen people who look like the ancient pictures and I seen with my own eyes the variation of shades one can see in todays Greeks.
Better we post and discuss pictures that have a more certain connection to Egypt.
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Tazarah
Why are you stalking my social media?
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Hey lioness
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What are you doing? Why are you stalking another poster? please contribute to the thread or stop posting.
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The Nile mosaic are really worth a detailed study. There are a lot of animals, some pure fantasy, some realistic, and there are also people from different regions of the Nile. Just a couple of examples
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I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
There are only one really visible runner in the Captain of the blacks fresco. Then there are fragments of another mans thigh and back of his head. It is impossible to prove if they were Africans, Egyptians or just Minoans colored in dark because of artistic convention.
The point is that most Minoan frescoes from this period are reconstructed. But this is the only one where jet black people are depicted. Also, you ignore the back of the head of the originals having kinky hair. Are you seriously claiming that all of this is simply made up by the European artists to put blacks in ancient Greece? Seriously? No Afrocentrics made these paintings and why would a European do this if it isn't supported by the evidence? Not to mention you ignore the art from the Nile Valley showing Puntites with similar loin cloths along with Minoans also with dark skin. All of which are from the same time period. Nobody here made these things and you just reject anything that goes against your ideology.
That just shows that you are desperate to remove any and all possibility of black Africans in ancient Greece or the idea that some ancient Cretans could have had dark skin. Crete is an island in the Mediterranean and not connected to the mainland. The fact that some of them may have been dark skinned in no way shape or form implies that most Greeks, such as those on the mainland were black or African. This is just one piece of evidence. You have the evidence of Minoans in the Nile Valley and the evidence of Nile Valley influence on early Greek art. Not to mention all the numerous references to Africans in ancient Greek mythology. All of these things are well established facts. You are just spouting opinions and complaining about facts you don't like.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: To draw any conclusion about Africans or Egyptians from those fragments is to make a hen out of a feather.
Or as they say in the article I cited
quote: In this post, I examine a fresco which has excited debate among archaeologists and Afrocentrics, and everyone in between: The Captain of the Blacks fresco. ---- There must have been black Africans at Knossos, just as there were probably Egyptians and Hellenes and Canaanites and Libyans and Babylonians, even though the physical evidence for them living in Crete is scant, indeed.
Better wait for a day when we find actual tombs of Egyptians or Africans on Crete (preferably with preserved DNA), or at least better pictorial evidence of Egyptians or other Africans.
We know from other lines of evidence that there were contacts between Egypt and the Aegeans, no one denies that, but we do not know how many Egyptians or Africans actually lived on Crete or in Mycenaean Greece
The evidence exists on the Vases depicting the myth of busiris. Are you saying that you don't accept this as evidence because they look African? How hilarious. So now we need to "keep looking" because they are too African looking and this offends you and your ideology.
Keep in mind that all of those vases don't depict them as Africans, but that does show that there were some showing this along with the clothing that is found in art from the Nile.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And the exact skin color of the ancient Cretans we do not really know. We know from their DNA that they were relatively similar to todays Cretans and also Sardinians. We can not trust only pictorial evidence with all of it´s symbolism.
And even if we trust it we can see that the pictures can be included in the color variation of even todays Cretans and Greeks. We do not have to draw a lot of fanciful conclusions about black Minoans or Africans.
And as I mentioned before, I have been to Greece and I seen people who look like the ancient pictures and I seen with my own eyes the variation of shades one can see in todays Greeks.
Better we post and discuss pictures that have a more certain connection to Egypt.
And you keep repeating yourself as to why some of the ancient Minoans and Cretans could not have been dark skinned purely based on ideology. This is a you issue. There are numerous lines of evidence showing this as a very distinct likelihood but you just don't like it because it offends your ideas of 'purity' in Europe.
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The point is that most Minoan frescoes from this period are reconstructed. But this is the only one where jet black people are depicted. Also, you ignore the back of the head of the originals having kinky hair. Are you seriously claiming that all of this is simply made up by the European artists to put blacks in ancient Greece? Seriously? No Afrocentrics made these paintings and why would a European do this if it isn't supported by the evidence? Not to mention you ignore the art from the Nile Valley showing Puntites with similar loin cloths along with Minoans also with dark skin. All of which are from the same time period. Nobody here made these things and you just reject anything that goes against your ideology.
It is not ideology, it is common sense. Do you think that Minoans, Myceaeans and also Etruscans suddenly changed color? What made them do that? Mutations? Natural selection? Invasion? The problem is that those people are rather similar genetically speaking still today. Would they change color without genetic changes? When it comes to Minoans we can even see in their genetics that some had brown hair (one individual even had light eyes). And the peoples on Crete are still rather similar to the ancient ones (and relatively similar to Sardinians), and the modern Greeks have much in common with Mycaenens.
Regarding the painting, people see what they want to see. You are pre programmed by ideology to see black people where-ever you look, even in the tiniest fragment. You do not understand the role of artistic conventions and symbolism in ancient art. You just interpret everything like it was photos, just literally.
So according to you were Etruscans also black (or very dark skinned)? They also many times depicted very dark figures in their art (even if the women mostly were light skinned, but those you never count since you only see black).
quote:That just shows that you are desperate to remove any and all possibility of black Africans in ancient Greece or the idea that some ancient Cretans could have had dark skin. Crete is an island in the Mediterranean and not connected to the mainland. The fact that some of them may have been dark skinned in no way shape or form implies that most Greeks, such as those on the mainland were black or African. This is just one piece of evidence. You have the evidence of Minoans in the Nile Valley and the evidence of Nile Valley influence on early Greek art. Not to mention all the numerous references to Africans in ancient Greek mythology. All of these things are well established facts. You are just spouting opinions and complaining about facts you don't like.
I know there were some Black Africans in Greece, just as there were Minoans and later Greeks in Egypt, no one has denied that. Why do you think I deny that? Do you at all read what I write? But we do not know how many they were in Minoan or Myceaean times. And it does not mean that they had some kind of dominating presence there, or that all dark figures in Minoan art depict them, or some kind of black Greeks.
Once again we have genetics from both Crete and the mainland and still no one of these human remains are African.
quote: The evidence exists on the Vases depicting the myth of busiris. Are you saying that you don't accept this as evidence because they look African? How hilarious. So now we need to "keep looking" because they are too African looking and this offends you and your ideology.
The vases posted here are from a different time, they are not Minoan or Mycenaean. And the Busiris motif is also anchored in written sources which makes it easier to know what the vases depict. No one has denied those vases.
quote:Keep in mind that all of those vases don't depict them as Africans, but that does show that there were some showing this along with the clothing that is found in art from the Nile.
The vases are from a time where we have written documents and a lot of material showing contact between Greece and Egypt. Also we know more about later Greek mythology than we know about Minoans.
The Minoan and Mycaenean motifs posted here are mostly wall paintings not vases (even if I posted the warrior vase in another thread).
quote:And you keep repeating yourself as to why some of the ancient Minoans and Cretans could not have been dark skinned purely based on ideology. This is a you issue. There are numerous lines of evidence showing this as a very distinct likelihood but you just don't like it because it offends your ideas of 'purity' in Europe.
I must repeat myself since you seem unable to understand information. As you maybe have seen, I have said that even today there are dark skinned Cretans and Greeks, so there is no real proof they were more darkskinned in those days. If they were you have to explain the genetic changes that caused the perceived lightening.
Have you been in Greece? Have you seen that there are Greeks that look rather similar to the ancients?
To put too much faith in ancient art can be tricky. Let us say we did not know so much about the Ibo people in Nigeria. But then we found masks from them. Maybe some people would start to speculate if they were a white people since many of their masks are white. So, my point is ancient and traditional art are not photos.
Maybe we could return to the subject of the thread now. So far you have not shown any proof that ancient Minoans were darker than todays Cretans and you have not shown any Minoans or Mycenaeans that are undisputable Egyptian or African.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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Tazarah and Shebitku, be careful asking lioness too many questions. You see she loves to scrutinize what others post but doesn't like getting scrutinized herself.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: About one of the eventual Busiris kantharoi, the Musei Vaticani´s site theorizes that the tale and theme is about Egypt, but the very black people on the vase are maybe inspired by more southern people
quote: Attic Kantharos of the Vatican Class (Class M) On this janiform kantharos, with two human heads, the head of Heracles and that of a black African are depicted symmetrically opposed. It has been hypothesised that the two subjects may constitute a reference to the episode of Heracles and Busiris, the mythical Egyptian sovereign who, to keep famine at bay, destined for sacrifice any foreigners who entered Egypt. Among these was Heracles who, returning from the gardens of the Hesperides, was captured and led to the sacrificial altar; he broke his shackles and killed the Pharaoh and his court. There remains the fact that, following contact with Pharaonic Egypt, Greek knowledge of the African world increased from the seventh century B.C. onwards, entering into contact with the Nilotic ethnic African interior. More than an exotic evocation, the confidence with the subject demonstrated by the Athenian ceramic painter could have been due to the real presence of black Africans, introduced as slaves in Athens itself or enrolled as mercenaries, as was the case in the armies of Xerxes around 480 B.C.
There is a book where different depictions of black people in antiquity are presented. Maybe time to get it and get some more flesh on the bones. When I studied classical history and archaeology at the university this aspect of Greek and Roman art was seldom discussed.
Unfortunately, all the Greek portrayals of Africans available in the internet are just a small fraction of what was found archaeologically. As for the theory that these were Africans from 'further south', I find that hard to believe in the case of the Herakles vs. Busiris motifs. Busiris was clearly an Egyptian king and it would make no sense to depict Herakles killing a Sub-Saharan.
Mind you, I have seen some Greek depictions of Africans with more 'northern' features i.e. less prognathous, smaller noses, etc. But as scholars like Dr. Ashton have pointed out, the Greeks were prone to using xeno-hyperbole that is exaggerating foreign ethnic features.
Then there is also the fact that people with such features existed even in the Delta.
What I also find disturbing is the presumption that such Africans with 'southern' features were slaves but from from the further south, when naturally most of the African slaves who entered Athens and other areas of the Greek world were North Africans from Libya if not Egypt.
I forgot to mention that this topic you posted Archaeopteryx was posted by Brandon before
Egyptian kids
Here are two good sources on the portrayal of Herakles vs. Busiris:
Herakles in Africa: Confronting the Other in Libya and Egypt Another issue that merits further discussion is the physical character of the Egyptians on the Busiris vases. The literature on the so-called race of the ancient Egyptians has a long and sordid history that cannot be addressed in full here, but suffice it to say that in the nineteenth century it became entangled with the race science of the day. Ancient Egypt was subjected to a systematic whitening as part of a larger effort to justify the enslavement of people of African descent by denying any association between civilization and black people (Bernasconi 2007, p.12).
Whether such concepts as race and racism even existed in the ancient Mediterranean remains a subject of debate (Isaac 2004, pp. 4-5; McCoskey 2012, pp. 47-49; Kennedy et al. xiii-xv; Jensen 2018, pp. 14-16) and racial categories such as black and white are modern social fabrications that would have held no meaning in antiquity (Dee 2004, pp.163-4; Smith 2018, pp.18-19).
It is clear, however, that ancient Greek vase-painters, even accounting for the distortions and conventions inherent to their medium, conveyed Egypt as place that was home to people who in modern terms would be considered black.
Herakles in Egypt: A Greek View of the Egyptians Nevertheless it is difficult to locate Egyptians in Hellenic iconography. Egyptians themselves had a very clear self-image and left innumerable records of their own appearance. But one searches almost in vain for recognizably pharaonic-looking figures in Greek art of the archaic and early classical periods, despite a fascination with exotica that peopled their vases with Persians, Scythians and other "barbarians." Representations of negroid blacks occur. But the Egyptians themselves distinguished between their own physical appearance and that of the black Nubians, or Sudanese. The Greeks, too, distinguished by name the "Ethiopians" (i.e.., Nubians) from the "Egyptians." But to what extent they distinguished visually between Nubian nationals, ethnic Nubians in the service of the Egyptian pharaoh, and ethnic Egyptians is by no means obvious. The only sure pictures of Egyptians are those representing a mythological event known to involve Egyptians. The most popular was the conflict between Herakles and Bousiris king of Egypt--a clash of Greek and the "barbarous" customs of Egypt...
As to racial types, in two cases the foreigners have Greek-style hair and beards (and clothes in contemporary Athenian style). Eight examples show features clearly negroid or "mulatto," i.e., a platyrrhine nose and sometimes a protruding forehead, but with caucasoid lips and chin. In only one case is this type bearded. The black type varies from rather schematic to a very observant and accurate portrayal. Five more examples show a face distinctly non-Greek by comparison with Herakles', yet not black in type, with a large aquiline nose. The hair is cut close, curly or woolly, in 6 cases; 5 are stubbly-looking as if shaved, 3 more completely bald. Almost all show clean-shaven chins or a mixture of shaven & bearded ones; where the heads are stubbly, the face is, too
As for physiognomy, Egyptians are interchangeably portrayed as blacks, "others" of a non-black stamp, or as Greeks. It seems not to matter, as long as the degree of foreignness which the artist has in mind is somehow communicated. Herodotos himself mentions only once, disinterestedly, in passing, that the people of the Nile were dark-skinned and woolly-haired -- and he admits that this is by no means unique to them. Whether darkness of complexion held any particular connotations for the Athenians is hard to tell; they admired a tanned look in their own men. On the other hand the snub nose and prominent forehead of many of these portrayals are reminiscent of satyrs. While the Greeks seem fascinated by the distinctive negroid facial features, which they sometimes portrayed with great care, race seems less important to them in defining a people than customs.
Posts: 26236 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
Blog: Dissertation Spotlight: Racialized Commodities: Thinking about Trade, Mobility, and Race in the Archaic Mediterranean Christopher Parmenter September 27, 2021
Before accusing someone of lying you should check the source to make sure you're not being a fool
Above you have a link to the following >>
quote: Blog: Dissertation Spotlight: Racialized Commodities: Thinking about Trade, Mobility, and Race in the Archaic Mediterranean Christopher Parmenter September 27, 2021
A window onto the changes happening during the lifetime of Xenophanes can be seen in the name vase of the Busiris Painter. The vessel depicts Herakles massacring the court of the mythical Egyptian pharaoh Busiris. The hero, given red skin and black hair, thrashes Egyptian priests in white robes, portrayed alternately with tan skin and black hair or black skin and tan hair. (The exception appears to be a single priest with a red coif). On the back, the painter depicts a march of black-skinned, black-haired warriors in alternating white or red clothing. Nearly everyone, save Herakles, has short, curly hair; the warriors are given facial features that appear distinctly African. (As other scholars have noted, using historicized racial terms to describe an archaeological object raises interpretive issues). The painter alternated skin color, hair color, and costume to balance the figures in his composition, a popular technique in the polychrome styles of the sixth century. It seems clear that the painter was familiar with Egyptian images: Herakles takes the stance reserved for pharaohs striking Egypt’s enemies. Is this act of appropriation an homage to Egyptian styles or a derisive parody? Out of all these considerations, what does appear clear is that the painter rendered Egyptians identifiable on the level of the body. This was not the case in the Homeric poems.
It's peculiar how this author makes the above remarks on skin and features but makes no mention of how Heracles himself is depicted. He also says above "Nearly everyone, save Herakles, has short, curly hair" The author Christopher Parmenter is clearly confused, that is patently wrong
He also says "the warriors are given facial features that appear distinctly African. (As other scholars have noted,"
And you are using this link to argue me?
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku:
quote: Originally posted by the lioness:
I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
Show the quote from the book
Or are you intentionally lying?
perhaps it is you who is intentionally lying >>
Isaac, Benjamin. The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity.(2006) Princeton University Press. Fig.I. following page 251.
FIGURE I. Caerctan black-figure hydria. Late Archaic Greek, c. 510 B.C. Vienna Kunthistorisches Museum. ANSA IV 3576. Drawing: A. Furtwangler und K. Reichhold, Griechische \ilstmmllinei; Auswahl hervorragender Vasennbilder (Munchen, 1904), PI. 51.
"Busiris was a legendary king in the Delta who, according to a Greek tradition, habitually slaughtered foreigners entering his country and sacrificed them to Zeus, until he vainly tried to do this to Herac!es. The vase shows Heracles destroying Busiris and his priests. Various details refer to the customs and clothing of Egypt with remarkable precision. Heracles is raging near the altar, flinging two Egyptians around and trampling on two others. A group of black Nubians hastens to come to the aid of the king, shown on the back of the vase. They have the usual equipment of Egyptian guards. Busiris's henchmen are often depicted as black on such images. Some of the priests are black and Heracles himself is dark. Greek vases do not always make an effort to render skin color realistically,... Busiris himself identified by the uraeus, the royal symbol of Lower Egypt, has fallen in front of the altar. The hydria intentionally reminds of familiar Egyptian images of a huge pharaoh smiting his tiny foreign enemies. Thus it is a caricature of Egyptian formal art expressing the superiority of the ruler over foreigners, substituting instead the Greek hero who destroys the powerless Egyptians and ends their sacrilegious custom of sacrificing strangers."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- another delicious meal for the lionessPosts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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Unfortunately, all the Greek portrayals of Africans available in the internet are just a small fraction of what was found archaeologically. As for the theory that these were Africans from 'further south', I find that hard to believe in the case of the Herakles vs. Busiris motifs. Busiris was clearly an Egyptian king and it would make no sense to depict Herakles killing a Sub-Saharan.
Mind you, I have seen some Greek depictions of Africans with more 'northern' features i.e. less prognathous, smaller noses, etc. But as scholars like Dr. Ashton have pointed out, the Greeks were prone to using xeno-hyperbole that is exaggerating foreign ethnic features.
Yes the last thing you write has, as everyone is aware of, also been common in todays world (and still is). Exagerrated features can be both a way to show appreciation or the opposite. Some of the art from the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries which depict black Africans seems to have borrowed stylistic traits from classical depictions of Africans.
quote: posted by Djehuti:
I forgot to mention that this topic you posted Archaeopteryx was posted by Brandon before
Thank you, I shall check out that thread too.
In the Roman Mosaic from Palestrina both more light skinned types (some may be Romans or Greeks, but perhaps also Egyptians) and other more dark skinned people are depicted. It is hard to tell if the artists themselves had ever been in Egypt or if they worked after hearsay.
Did you read this book? Seems interesting. I have only read some pages on the net once. Maybe I will borrow it from the library.
-------------------- Once an archaeologist, always an archaeologist Posts: 2683 | From: Sweden | Registered: Mar 2020
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A common assumption was that due to the features, such Africans were likely 'Aethiopians' or Sub-Saharans, but many Classical art scholars like Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton who is an Egyptologist specializing in the Greco-Roman period keenly notes that depictions of Egyptians show similar features.
Take for example the popular motif of Herakles and the Egyptian king Busiris which according to the myth Harakles killed.
^^ At the top of your post are showing a cup with a woman on one side and a jet black person with prominent African features. There are several other cups like this also
Do you have any evidence that this black person depicts some particular person?
At the top of the post is another double headed cup depicting of a woman and Heracles
^^ Do you have any quote from a scholar who explains why they theorize that this black person is a depiction of the fictional Egyptian king Busiris? I don't see any symbol or jewelry or anything that might lead one to theorize that this is Busiris
Also, of the many other depictions of Busiris is three any other one that resembles one of these black faces on the double cups ?
Posts: 42918 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Doug M: most Minoan frescoes from this period are reconstructed. But this is the only one where jet black people are depicted. Also, you ignore the back of the head of the originals having kinky hair.
I wonder how someone determined estimated these fragments represented more than two figures
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