posted
This is a topic that needs further investigation. In Minoan Art, males and females are depicted with different skin tones, red for males, white for females. Now, I have come across some common theories in attempt to explain this, one being that this is an example of symbolism, similar to that of the Ancient Egyptians. Another frequent theory, particularly in Black circles is that the skin tones actually reflect the diversity of the Minoans. That Minoan Men were actually dark skinned, while Minoan Women were fair or white skinned. I carry mix feelings about these two theories. From some of the information that I have found, it would seem to make sense that this would merely be an example of symbolism. This wouldn't be far fetch from the look of their art.
But then there is this Egyptian mural....
Now, I'm just making my own observations here. In the case of foreigners depicting foreigners, one would expect that Minoan males would be portrayed much differently in Egyptian art, rather than their own art. I would appreciate if anybody could discuss this weird artistic phenomenon with me.
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posted
Artistic convention probably but it is hard to say. I am sure the males and females had similar complexions. But there were also variations in complexions among the Minoan population that would have been shared between both male and females. However many times the art shows darker males and lighter females. Not sure if that was the actual reality on the ground or what. We do know that there are African tribes to this day who do things like running on the back of bulls. Maybe it is an ancient tradition that was more widespread in North Africa and the Mediterranean. Hard to say.
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quote:Originally posted by Baalberith: This is a topic that needs further investigation. In Minoan Art, males and females are depicted with different skin tones, red for males, white for females. Now, I have come across some common theories in attempt to explain this, one being that this is an example of symbolism, similar to that of the Ancient Egyptians. Another frequent theory, particularly in Black circles is that the skin tones actually reflect the diversity of the Minoans. That Minoan Men were actually dark skinned, while Minoan Women were fair or white skinned. I carry mix feelings about these two theories. From some of the information that I have found, it would seem to make sense that this would merely be an example of symbolism. This wouldn't be far fetch from the look of their art.
But then there is this Egyptian mural....
Now, I'm just making my own observations here. In the case of foreigners depicting foreigners, one would expect that Minoan males would be portrayed much differently in Egyptian art, rather than their own art. I would appreciate if anybody could discuss this weird artistic phenomenon with me.
This is fake picture relating to Minoans. They were Blacks. These murals were redone to make the Minoans look like Europeans.
The Garamantes founded civilization in Minoa, or ancient Crete and the Fezzan.The Garamantes were Mande speakers not Berbers.
The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers.Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
See my movie discussing the African heritage of Socretes,Homer and the heroes of Homer's work.
The claim that the dna studied in this paper was of the ancient Minoans is a joke. Historians have known for years that the original Cretans were replaced by an Indo-European population after 1500 BC, as a result, we have Linear A, written by the original Minoans, and Linear B written by the Indo-Aryan speaking Minoans.
The people in this study were mainly Indo-European speakers. In the Supplement, the authors make it clear that they used dna from Lassithi cave sample. This dna is roughly dated to "1800" BC. The dna is probably much younger and as a result, it would reflect the invading Indo-European population not the Keftiu=Eteo-Cretans/Eteo-Minoans.
This dna study is just an attempt to protray the Cretans as non-Africa. The dna evidence disputes this myth, because most belong to haplogroups H and U5.
The highest concentration of U5 is found among Berbers in NWA . It is also carried by Mande and Fulani Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa (1-4).
The U5 haplogroup carried by the Mande, like other SSWA is characterized by 16189,16192,16270 and 16320. The presence of hg U5 among the Mande speakers supports the linguistic evidence concerning the Keftiu.
Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:
quote: The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.
But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt. . . Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East. A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.
Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).
If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%. Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine. The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East. In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.
References: Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616
Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543 Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf
Footnotes
1. Cerný V., Hajek M., Bromova M., Cmejla R., Diallo I. & Brdicka R. 2006. MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations. Hum. Biol., 78: 9-27.
2. Rosa A, Brehem A. 2011. African human mtDNA phylogeography at-a-glance. J. Anthropol. Sci, 89:25-58.
3. Coia V., Destro-Bisol G., Verginelli F., Battaggia C., Boschi I., Cruciani F., Spedini G., Comas D. & Calafell F. 2005. Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 128: 678-681.
4. Ely B., Wilson J.L., Jackson F. & Jackson B.A. 2006. African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups. BMC. Biol., 4: 34.
-------------------- C. A. Winters Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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The fresco of a fisherman found at the Minoan town Akrotiri, from the collection of the Museum of Prehistoric Thera (Ministry of Culture and Sports of Greece)
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Part of the Reconstruction of the Cupbearers Fresco in the Corridor of Procession , Knossos , 1700-1400 BC
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Baalberith
Ungodly and Satanic Entity
Member # 23079
posted
Here is some information that I found about the bull-leaping fresco, which goes into detail about the skin tones of the figures.
“The Bull-Leaping Fresco is a distinguishable work significant to Minoan culture by its vivid colors and curvilinear shapes that bring a liveliness and vitality to the scenes. The artists of this period are skilled in reproducing natural forms in a vivid and impressionistic manner, and have the ability to fit the painting in a frame of geometric shapes. In this painting there are three figures, two with a lighter skin tone standing on the outside of the frame, flanking the charging bull in the middle. On top of the bull is a figure of darker skin performing a leap over his arching back. The fresco is bordered by what appears to be the wheels of a chariot, which places them in the later years of Minoan culture after the Mycenaean takeover of Knossos and the general destruction of other Minoan centers.”
The act of bull-leaping is very significant to Minoan culture for it gives expression to a tension that underlies man’s somewhat tenuous mastery of nature. This is reaffirmed each time human triumphs over animal. The new fascination with bull-leaping ceremonies and man vs. nature coincides with their flourishing society and provides an affirmation of social order. There is a multitude of art throughout time that was created as symbolic re-enactments of this early process of domestication of the wild, and the bull was a common subject, especially for Minoan art. Therefore, The Bull-Leaping Fresco in the Palace of Knossos is a prime example of this aspect of Minoan culture.
“This particular painting has created a significant amount of debate over the identities and genders of the three figures in regards to their skin tone. When first discovered, Sir Arthur Evans made the assumption that the lighter skin of two of the figures indicated that they were female, and the darker skin meant male. He said the fresco depicts a ‘male performer, of the usual ruddy hue, who is turning a back-somersault above the bull…two female taureadors [are] distinguished not only by their white skin but by their more ornamental attire’: a reference to the variegated hue of the kilts worn by the white figures in contrast to the plain yellow worn by the reddish figure.” However, archeologists have not really thought to contradict this statement, continuously believing that the color of their skin determined their gender.Yet, what if this needs to be reexamined? One other possibility could be that the color of the bull leapers was used to indicate a temporal sequence of steps in the representation of the individual carrying out the leap. Therefore the lighter figure on the left seizing the horns is preparing to begin their somersault over the galloping bull, the action indicated by the darker skin. The finishing of the leap and the now static pose is shown by the figure on the right with the lighter skin tone. Because of this observation, it is possible that this is the action of only one figure, one of extreme athletic capabilities, which can be seen with his realistic musculature; and of high social rank, because of the elaborate hairstyle, which is adorned with ribbons and other decoration. Regardless, there are many possibilities for the identity of the leaping figure, but they all represent the ceremonial action of bull-leaping and its importance within Minoan culture.“
Banquet scene in the Tomb of the Shields, Tarquinia. Third century B.C. (Etruscan, ancient Italy)
Roman Fresco from Pompeii dates from the 1st century AD
Many men are attracted to a girlish quality in women. This might be due to a biological instinct that the woman is young and healthy to procreate with. Babies are often born lighter than then they are when they get older. And in some East Asian cultures they have a big cultural thing traditionally against getting tanned. To them it symbolizes the peasantry who are tanned by working outside while the nobles are fairer because they don't have to do physical labor. There is a tendency for this to apply to female more than males since males are expected to go outside more
Ironically the tan in modern Western culture represents that a person had time off from work, the status of having a vacation and perhaps having had the money to fly to a tropical location
Sennefer, the king's head clerk, and his wife, Hatshepsut (a different Hatshepsut) Department of Egyptian Antiquities: The New Kingdom (circa 1550 to circa 1069 BC)
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posted
It's called "artistic conventions" probably influenced by egypt's iconography where males were always depicted darker than their wife
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quote:Originally posted by Hamilcar: It's called "artistic conventions" probably influenced by egypt's iconography where males were always depicted darker than their wife
False, some nobles are depicted with lighter skinned wives, sometimes but Egyptian queens are most often depicted the same skin tone as their king husbands.
Tutankhamun, golden throne with Queen Ankhesenamun
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quote:Originally posted by Hamilcar: It's called "artistic conventions" probably influenced by egypt's iconography where males were always depicted darker than their wife
False, some nobles are depicted with lighter skinned wives, sometimes but Egyptian queens are most often depicted the same skin tone as their king husbands.
Tutankhamun, golden throne with Queen Ankhesenamun
Here you're comparing metals to paintings I was obviously talking about paintings/frescoes
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posted
The art of the Nile Valley used various conventions for portraying groups of people and over time one of those artistic conventions was to use alternating color schemes. Sometimes it could be various shades of brown among the men. They also had a traditional way of portraying women often with yellow skin. And if you look in the tombs that are mostly intact, those depictions also included other depictions of the same females in the same color as the men. It is part of the artistic and cultural canon and most likely goes back to an African tradition of yellow face paint seen in some places to this day.
Various scholars have commented on Nile Valley influence on Mediterranean art and obviously color schemes could be one of them. However, we also do know that the Minoans had an element of the population that was darker skinned as we see some portraits of both men and women with darker skin in groups of people that also are depicted with white skin.
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quote:Originally posted by Hamilcar: It's called "artistic conventions" probably influenced by egypt's iconography where males were always depicted darker than their wife
"Artistic conventions" is something made up by modern day art artist and conservators, not to be confused with ancient Egyptian art.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Hamilcar: It's called "artistic conventions" probably influenced by egypt's iconography where males were always depicted darker than their wife
"Artistic conventions" is something made up by modern day art artist and conservators, not to be confused with ancient Egyptian art.
quote:"...to discover that these ideas were communicated through a visual language of symbols and artistic conventions that were understood by all ancient Egyptians" [...] "Egyptian art characteristically demonstrates a keen observation of nature. Although the proportions and poses of Egyptian sculptures were based upon strict conventions, subtle indications of musculature and bone structure suggest the artists were well aware of anatomy (slides 10, 27, and 31). Nowhere is this attention to natural detail more evident than in the way Egyptian artists depicted animals (slides 21, 30, 34, 35, and 36)." […] "When depicting the human body on a two-dimensional surface, artists used different points of view to show each part of the body in its most complete form. For instance, the shoulders are seen from the front. The torso and hips turn in three-quarter view so that the legs and arms can be seen in profile. The head is also shown in profile—to display simultaneously the back and the front, with protruding nose and lips—but the eye is drawn as if seen from the front, looking directly at the viewer."
posted
Folks some years ago in a book made of paper I read in Ancient Khemit saffron was a symbol of fertility. Women painted yellow in certain paintings were being honored as childbearers in addition to saffron being prescribed to increase fertility while men painted darker complexioned in the first place who also were darker than the reddish brown tint seen in certain paintings.
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Nefertari, also known as Nefertari Meritmut, was an Egyptian queen and the first of the Great Royal Wives (or principal wives) of Ramesses the Great. Nefertari means 'beautiful companion' and Meritmut means 'Beloved of [the goddess] Mut'. She is one of the best known Egyptian queens, among such women as Cleopatra, Nefertiti, and Hatshepsut. She was highly educated and able to both read and write hieroglyphs, a very rare skill at the time. She used these skills in her diplomatic work, corresponding with other prominent royals of the time. Her lavishly decorated tomb, QV66, is one of the largest and most spectacular in the Valley of the Queens. Ramesses also constructed a temple for her at Abu Simbel next to his colossal monument there.
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I have to concur with Clyde Winters. Many of the frescoes, derived from fragments, seem to be faked in an attempt to get white-looking people into the framing, as there are full pictures with hordes of Blacks (men and women), but the depictions of white women are relatively sparse.
quote:Originally posted by Khufu101: [QB] I have to concur with Clyde Winters. Many of the frescoes, derived from fragments, seem to be faked in an attempt to get white-looking people into the framing, as there are full pictures with hordes of Blacks (men and women), but the depictions of white women are relatively sparse.
Akrotiri, Minoan town.
. Akrotiri, Minoan town, detail of above
Akrotiri, fisherman fresco
you are referring to this as hordes of Black people?
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posted
I used hordes as a trope to ensure the reality is explicated, Lioness. Are you as pretty and smart as your avatar?
Posts: 10 | From: Minneapolis, Minnesota | Registered: Apr 2014
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quote:Originally posted by Tehutimes: Folks some years ago in a book made of paper I read in Ancient Khemit saffron was a symbol of fertility. Women painted yellow in certain paintings were being honored as childbearers in addition to saffron being prescribed to increase fertility while men painted darker complexioned in the first place who also were darker than the reddish brown tint seen in certain paintings.
Some years ago this was painted by ancient Egyptians. Is this symbolic art about their lifestyle? Do "you" consider this symbolic art, or an expression of their lifestyle?
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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