posted
According to Dhoxie...this is not "her people".
According to Jari, he has a fear these people are NOT Black. They are white
I am confused. I see a few white migrants in the pictures. But I guess everyone is white to him. Son of Ra would agree.
As I told the clown. It does matter what you believe it is what you can prove.
Black guy with an afro..no?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
I have about 2 dozen of these Black Cretans pieces....But I am only imagining these people are as black as AEians
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
To the newbies. Evans and his buddies were accused of fraud and he found peices of art and basically reconstructed the peices to "his likeness"
eg this was found in pieces but was recreated by Evans. See the 10 or so original pieces embedded within the artwork
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
How many fake Roman and Greek statues and coins are in display in museum?. I have to travel to India, Iran and China and compare their Graeco Roman statues and coins to the Euro one.
I learn today that the word Nero mean black in Italian.I learn that from a black printer cartridge with the word black in different languages.Nero was also the name of a Roman Emperor.Maybe he was call Nero because he was very black.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I believe the head is fake. Where is the oiginal?
Young fisherman with his catch, detail of a fresco in Room 5, West House, Akrotiri, Thera, c. 1650 B.C. Approx. 53" high. National Archeological Museum, Athens.
why do you think the head is fake?
Troll already proved this is African
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posted
The piece is intact and complete. The artwork I posted clearly shows the original vs the reconstructed sections.
If you don't know this is fake then...
and I have a lot more.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: The piece is intact and complete. The artwork I posted clearly shows the original vs the reconstructed sections.
If you don't know this is fake then...
and I have a lot more.
this is a typical tactic.
If the artifact is in good condition but somebody doesn't like it they formulate a ridiculous theory that all authentic artifacts must have been fragmented and damaged. It's nonsense. Then when an intact artifatct is shown that is to their liking all of the sudden they forget all about this phoney balony concept
posted
For my part, I would interpret the Minoan paintings as mimicry of Egyptian artistic conventions. That still attests to cultural influences from Africa, but it doesn't necessarily mean the Minoans as a people were dark-skinned like the Egyptians.
posted
As anyone can see. There are a few white people but obviously the indigenous people are black. Enough of the pic spamming. Let me stop....
As I said. Southern Europe is an extension of Africa.
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posted
With all this talk about real and fake artefacts, eyeballing artworks for ethnic origins etc, you'd almost forget about the aDNA report cited in the OP. But then again, throwing dust in your eyes might just be what these proponents are going for. Last time I checked, artefacts don't trump aDNA.
quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: For my part, I would interpret the Minoan paintings as mimicry of Egyptian artistic conventions. That still attests to cultural influences from Africa, but it doesn't necessarily mean the Minoans as a people were dark-skinned like the Egyptians.
Indeed. The dark colors (reddish-brown) in Minoan artwork usually aren't accompanied by African physiognomies and body forms as in the case with most Ancient Egyptian mural depictions. They seem to just depict themselves in the Egyptian color convention, but with their own ethnic features. I think the aDNA results underline that.
They were in contact with New Kingdom Egypt, as evinced by the fact that one of the earliest Minoan style frescoes were excavated not in Crete, but in an Egyptian palace at Tel-el-daba (Avaris) and I believe also in the Levant.
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I can be wrong but...I don't see it. The aDNA and "pic spam" correlate. Ancient Creteans and North Africa share a unique genetic history.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Ha! Ha! Some of your are really hilarious... The issue is, are indigenous Creteans from the European mainland? Not if the Creteans and AEians have the same shade of blackness.
Now, which is it? I some resemblance to the Swedes.(wink wink).
The Cretes had been migrating from North Africa for thousand of years.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^Ostrich
Can you(rhetorical) pick out the black people here..Notice the reconstructed sections/people are light brown.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I believe the head is fake. Where is the oiginal?
I assume you mean this one?
4-8 Young fisherman with his catch, detail of a fresco in Room 5, West House, Akrotiri, Thera, Cyclades, ca. 1650 B.C. APPROX. 4' 5" HIGH. NATIONAL ARCHEOLOGICAL MUSEUM, ATHENS.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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As I told Lioness. His painting was a fake. Irregardsless skin tone is brown. The question is why are fake paintings being displayed in museums all over Europe?
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I believe the head is fake. Where is the oiginal?
Young fisherman with his catch, detail of a fresco in Room 5, West House, Akrotiri, Thera, c. 1650 B.C. Approx. 53" high. National Archeological Museum, Athens.
why do you think the head is fake?
Troll already proved this is African
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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4-8 Young fisherman with his catch, detail of a fresco in Room 5, West House, Akrotiri, Thera, Cyclades, ca. 1650 B.C. APPROX. 4' 5" HIGH. NATIONAL ARCHEOLOGICAL MUSEUM, ATHENS. [/QB]
.
_____________ BLACK SAHARAN OF MINOA______________
well I'm glad Troll's research finally resolved this.
xyyman wins again
_________________________________________________
however on further inspection I question the above. This version is from this Friends Academy link:
This rendering has him look even more cold adapted than the other one (relatively tall trunk with short limbs). Ties right into the observation I made earlier that the dark colouration of their skin is often not accompanied with African physiognomies and body forms.
When you put this together with the fact that the Egyptian dark skinned Keftiu just don't seem to be Cretans, the whole 'black Minoan' thing just seems to disintegrate even further. I'm still open to the idea of black Cretans if Keith's data still holds up, but the Minoans were an ethnic group, and so, these blacks would have been distinct from the Minoans, who, in all likelihood (judging by their genetic affinities pre-hellenic European farmers) would have been a branch of the Pelasgians.
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posted
Robust is independent of tropically or cold adapted. One can be robust and have either one of those bodyplans.
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The description seems clearly describing the above two fisherman frescos at the proper location West House, Akrotiri
The description mentions "only a few locks of hair" Ok assuming the stange looking squiggly black things ar locks of hair. But... it goes on to say "has a shaven head". Yet whatever that blue and grey hair shaped area on the the top of the heads of either figure is supposed to be you could not describe these figures as having "shaven heads". Basically the color of their scalp or hair is not mentioned a shaven head would have the same color as the skin tone. Also the caption to the blue haired one says 4 foot 5 inches tall. Although the quote doesn't specify which fisherman it's talking about, the description here is "one meter" that's a few inches over 3 feet, so there are still some questions here
Here's the boxers also from Akrotiri. A lot of it is reconstructed. Another weird looking hair cut, long thick black braids maybe but not on every part of the scalp There is also that bluish color on the scalp
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posted
OK 10-0-1. The guy above may be a admixed. Crete had a few whites. His body seems cold adapted. He has African typical steatopygous rump and very dark skin. However these...seems Saharan.
10-0-1.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: ^Ostrich
Can you(rhetorical) pick out the black people here..Notice the reconstructed sections/people are light brown.
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The first advanced Bronze Age civilization of Europe was established by the Minoans about 5,000 years before present. Since Sir Arthur Evans exposed the Minoan civic centre of Knossos, archaeologists have speculated on the origin of the founders of the civilization. Evans proposed a North African origin; Cycladic, Balkan, Anatolian and Middle Eastern origins have also been proposed. Here we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by analysing mitochondrial DNA from Minoan osseous remains from a cave ossuary in the Lassithi plateau of Crete dated 4,400–3,700 years before present. Shared haplotypes, principal component and pairwise distance analyses refute the Evans North African hypothesis. Minoans show the strongest relationships with Neolithic and modern European populations and with the modern inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau. Our data are compatible with the hypothesis of an autochthonous development of the Minoan civilization by the descendants of the Neolithic settlers of the island.
These results might not go over very well with some posters here, especially since African populations like the Egyptians were found to have the most distant genetic relationship from the Minoans.
I don't see what the discord is. The dates of the tests given back to Minoan Bronze Age times. Of course Europeans were present on Crete by then. This in no way refutes the findings that Africans were the earliest settlers of the island.
British archaeologist Arthur Evans (1851-1941), who conducted excavations on the island, was convinced of African migrations to ancient Crete. He pointed out that:
"The multiplicity of these connections with the old indigenous race of the opposite African coast, and which we undoubtedly have to deal with in the pre dynastic population of the Nile Valley, can in fact be hardly explained on any other hypothesis than that of an actual settlement in Southern Crete."
The research team of C.H. and H.B. Hawes, the latter of whom, like Evans, conducted important archaeological excavations in Crete, [...] noted that: "Anthropologists are inclined to the view that the Neolithic people of Crete were immigrants, and probably came from North Africa."
Historian H.R. Hall, also Oxford trained, shared Evans' position on the early population of Minoan Crete:
"While the majority of the original Neolithic inhabitants of Crete probably came from Anatolia, another element may well have come in oared boats from the opposite African coast, bringing with them to the southern plain of Messara the seeds of civilization that, transplanted to the different conditions of Crete, developed into the great Minoan culture, a younger more brilliant, and less long-lived sister of that of Egypt."
Whether the Minoan culture was more brilliant than that of Egypt is highly questionable at best, but on the other points Hall seems to just about to hit the mark. Evans, again, indeed considered Egypt and Libya as the springboards of Minoan civilization; so much so that he structured his own Minoan chronology on that of dynastic Egypt. He was particularly struck by the similarities in the contents of the of the tombs of the ancient Minoans and Egyptians:
"So numerous, in fact, are the points, of comparison presented by the contents of these early interments with those of pre dynastic Egypt that, far-fetched as the conclusion might appear at first sight, I was already some years since constrained to put forth the suggestion that about the time of the conquest of the lower Nile Valley by the first historic dynasty some part of the older population had actually settled in this southern foreland of Crete."
Gordon Childe also commented on the relations between Crete and pre dynastic Egypt:
"At least on the Mesara, the great plain of southern Crete facing Africa, Minoan Crete's indebtedness to the Nile is disclosed in the most intimate aspects of its culture. Not only do the forms of early Minoan stone vases, the precision of the lapidaries' technique and the aesthetic selection of variegated stones as his materials carry on the the pre dynastic tradition, Nilotic religious customs such as the use of the sistrum, the wearing of amulets in the forms of legs, mummies and monkeys, and statuettes plainly derived from Gerzean `block figures,' and personal habits revealed by depilatory tweezers of the Egyptian shape and stone unguent palettes from the early tombs and, later, details of costumes such as the penis-sheath and loin-cloth betoken something deeper than the external relations of commerce."
African Presence In Early Europe, Edited by Ivan Van Sertima Man, God And Civilization, by John G. Jackson
"The inhabitants of the Aegean area in the Bronze Age may have been much like many people in the Mediterranean basin today, short and slight of build with dark hair and eyes and sallow complexions. Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid, are depicted in wall paintings from the 16th century BC. But men and women are always represented with black hair, and the presence of fair-haired people is not attested in the Aegean until later Greek times. Some very tall men buried in the Mycenaean shaft graves may be descendants of invaders who entered the mainland at the end of the 3rd millennium. A few skeletons from the single graves that appear on the mainland at the very end of the Bronze Age suggest the presence of new people from the north."--- Sinclair Hood, The Home of the Heroes: The Aegean Before the Greeks (1967)
Neolithic Minoan skull Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Don’t believe me? Anyone has the picture of the “Captain of the blacks” from Crete.
The before and after shots?
Also the “Bull rider”
And “the three ladies”.
I am on the road now so I can them dig it out.
It is ironic, given his modern reputation as an out-and-out racist, that one of the most tendentious restorations of a Minoan fresco, carried out under his direction and partly to his bidding, actually introduced a pair of black African soldiers as major figures. Known by Evans as the "Captain of the Blacks" fresco, it was restored to show a Minoan warrior running ahead of two black comrades or subordinates. In fact the only evidence for the black soldiers is a handful of fragments of black paint, which need not have been from human figures at all. Knossos and the Prophets of Modernism by Cathy Gere, University of Chicago Press
So do you think Evans totally 'made up' the likenesses of the black men-- that they were complete fabrications of his mind??
Mind you such likeness are based on other frescoes found in the Knossos palace. These are frescoes not shown elsewhere not even on the internet. As I've stated many times before, the most complete duplication I've seen of the Knossos frescoes are in the waiting halls of the Poseidon Adventure in Disney World. Many years ago when I was a kid and had no idea about African roots of Minoans I was surprised to see black peoples on the Minoan frescoes. The faces used to reconstruct the blacks of the 'Captain of the Blacks' were based on such figures.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
I don't know about you DJ but nice lead. I have check out Hall and others you cited. Your timing is peculiar.
Agreed, the black faces may be inaccurate , but the thigh is black.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: ]I don't see what the discord is. The dates of the tests given back to Minoan Bronze Age times. Of course Europeans were present on Crete by then. This in no way refutes the findings that Africans were the earliest settlers of the island.
Piece of shyt gutter troll xyyman says they are both African, that the Minoan civilization from start to finish was predominantly Saharan African
_________^NUBIAN________________^MINOAN OF BLACK EGYPTIAN DESCENTPosts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^^^ it's called doing more thorough research, look into it
Don't worry, I'll do just that, as I always do.
quote: Stamatoyannopoulos and his research team analyzed samples from 37 skeletons found in a cave in Crete’s Lassithi plateau and compared them with mitochondrial DNA sequences from 135 modern and ancient human populations. The Minoan samples revealed 21 distinct mitochondrial DNA variations, of which six were unique to the Minoans and 15 were shared with modern and ancient populations. None of the Minoans carried mitochondrial DNA variations characteristic of African populations.
Further analysis showed that the Minoans were only distantly related to Egyptian, Libyan, and other North African populations. The Minoan shared the greatest percentage of their mitochondrial DNA variation with European populations, especially those in Northern and Western Europe.
When plotted geographically, shared Minoan mitochondrial DNA variation was lowest in North Africa and increased progressively across the Middle East, Caucasus, Mediterranean islands, Southern Europe, and mainland Europe. The highest percentage of shared Minoan mitochondrial DNA variation was found with Neolithic populations from Southern Europe.
quote: Based on similarities between Minoan artifacts and those from Egypt and Libya, Evans proposed that the Minoan civilization founders migrated into the area from North Africa
quote: The first Neolithic humans reached Crete about 9,000 years before present (YBP)1, 2, coinciding with the development and adoption of the agricultural practices in the Near East and the extensive Neolithic population diffusion (8,000–9,500 YBP) that brought farming to Europe3.
--A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete, Jeffery R. Hughey et al.
I believe Hg E-V13 is associated with expanding farmers from the Middle East into the Mediterranean as well, during the same Neolithic time frame.
I wonder what this distance is, don't you?
Looking into the supplements. It basically indirectly confirms that ancient Egyptians weren't related to Europeans and vice versa. Especially with the recent DNA on ancient Egyptian mummies.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
This should be chalked up in the win column for me. This is suppose to be your and others forte, and me being an amateur(amateur hour) at first glance saw that it was a fake or at a minimum a bad reproduction. This gives me the impression you don’t knowhat you are talking about. You cannot tell when something is fake or not. Which brings into question your discipline. …, are you a French teacher, a comic student, or something? How could you have not seen that? TP posted what looks like the original. Nevertheless the Creteans are dark skinned people with a few whites in between. Clearly at that time the vast majority of the population was Beberlike people similar to North African groups. Of course these people have been virtually exterminated just as those in Sardinia. There are traces of the genes still present in the extant population.
However there are several FACTS we can learn from all of this.
1. The Cretan people are dark/black skin as they should be depending on latitude and being just off the coast of North Africa.
2. The technology and culture is African.
3. They associated more with Africans.
4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact.
5. They still carry unique genes found only in Africa and NOT in Europe.
6. Excavations proved the presence of a large Sub-Saharn presence in Crete. Source cited.
7. Obviously they got their cue from Africa since Europe did not have a comparable civilization at that time.
Sergi resolved this issue already, over 100ya. Studying skulls of these people proving they are African migrants from the Great Lakes region. Maybe Holliday et al can do something similar on their limb ratio.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Anen (TT 120), MMA graphic expedition 1931 Medium: Tempera on paper Dimensions: facsimile
.
KEFTIU at Abydos, Ramses Temple
^^^^ all fake Troll Patrol revelaed the authentic black African>
quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol
^^^^ another win for xyyman and African Minoa
Posts: 42920 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
^LOL at the childish behavior every time when this person above is being cornered. Or can't respond intelligently. Due to lack on the subject.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: This should be chalked up in the win column for me. This is suppose to be your and others forte, and me being an amateur(amateur hour) at first glance saw that it was a fake or at a minimum a bad reproduction. This gives me the impression you don’t knowhat you are talking about. You cannot tell when something is fake or not. Which brings into question your discipline. …, are you a French teacher, a comic student, or something? How could you have not seen that? TP posted what looks like the original. Nevertheless the Creteans are dark skinned people with a few whites in between. Clearly at that time the vast majority of the population was Beberlike people similar to North African groups. Of course these people have been virtually exterminated just as those in Sardinia. There are traces of the genes still present in the extant population.
However there are several FACTS we can learn from all of this.
1. The Cretan people are dark/black skin as they should be depending on latitude and being just off the coast of North Africa.
2. The technology and culture is African.
3. They associated more with Africans.
4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact.
5. They still carry unique genes found only in Africa and NOT in Europe.
6. Excavations proved the presence of a large Sub-Saharn presence in Crete. Source cited.
7. Obviously they got their cue from Africa since Europe did not have a comparable civilization at that time.
Sergi resolved this issue already, over 100ya. Studying skulls of these people proving they are African migrants from the Great Lakes region. Maybe Holliday et al can do something similar on their limb ratio.
I have no real opinion on this subject, because my knowledge on it is limited.
But from what is written, you could be right on them being mixed. And I think they cranked up the time frame a few notches.LOL
quote: The first Neolithic humans reached Crete about 9,000 years before present (YBP)1, 2, coinciding with the development and adoption of the agricultural practices in the Near East and the extensive Neolithic population diffusion (8,000–9,500 YBP) that brought farming to Europe3.
--A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete, Jeffery R. Hughey et al.
The associated Hg E-V13 is a said the be the neolithic farmers who expanded from the "Near East" into the Mediterranean.
E-V13 mutated from E-M78 about 13Kya.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Troll Patrol: ^LOL at the childish behavior every time when this person above is being cornered. Or can't respond intelligently.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: [qb] This should be chalked up in the win column for me. This is suppose to be your and others forte, and me being an amateur(amateur hour) at first glance saw that it was a fake or at a minimum a bad reproduction. This gives me the impression you don’t knowhat you are talking about. You cannot tell when something is fake or not. Which brings into question your discipline. …, are you a French teacher, a comic student, or something? How could you have not seen that? TP posted what looks like the original. Nevertheless the Creteans are dark skinned people with a few whites in between. Clearly at that time the vast majority of the population was Beberlike people similar to North African groups. Of course these people have been virtually exterminated just as those in Sardinia. There are traces of the genes still present in the extant population.
However there are several FACTS we can learn from all of this.
1. The Cretan people are dark/black skin as they should be depending on latitude and being just off the coast of North Africa.
2. The technology and culture is African.
3. They associated more with Africans.
4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact.
5. They still carry unique genes found only in Africa and NOT in Europe.
6. Excavations proved the presence of a large Sub-Saharn presence in Crete. Source cited.
7. Obviously they got their cue from Africa since Europe did not have a comparable civilization at that time.
Sergi resolved this issue already, over 100ya. Studying skulls of these people proving they are African migrants from the Great Lakes region. Maybe Holliday et al can do something similar on their limb ratio.
I have no real opinion on this subject, because my knowledge on it is limited.
But from what is written, you could be right on them being mixed. And I think they cranked up the time frame a few notches.
He didn't say they were mixed. can't you read? He's clearly saying the Minonas were black saharan Africans over and over again.
read #5
" 4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact."
^^^ that means the Minoans were Black Africans and if you find one exception it doesn't change that
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: Piece of shyt gutter troll xyyman says they are both African, that the Minoan civilization from start to finish was predominantly Saharan African
ROTFLMAOH
First off, YOU making ad-hominem attacks on me and calling me a troll is like a septic tank calling a washing machine "dirty". Second of all, what does any of what I cited have to do with what Xyzman says? What does any of what Xyz says even matter to you? Answer it doesn't-- you are just using him as your personal strawman as you always do when you are desperate.
quote: _________^NUBIAN________________^MINOAN OF BLACK EGYPTIAN DESCENT
Again with your silly labels.
quote:Originally posted by the lyinass,: Amenhotep III and Queen Tiye Enthroned Beneath a Kiosk, Tomb of Anen ca. 1390–1352 B.C. Egypt; Thebes, Sheikh Abd el-Qurna, Tomb of Anen (TT 120), MMA graphic expedition 1931 Medium: Tempera on paper Dimensions: facsimile
Mind you the man above though labeled Keftiu, does not look so not only in physical appearance but dress. The cap he wears as well as his style of robe and even the curled toe shoes are strikingly like those of a Hattian or Hittite. Note that Crete was settled by waves of folks from Anatolia as well as Europe during the Bronze Age.
quote:KEFTIU at Abydos, Ramses Temple
Are you sure about the labeling? His features and fillet are those of an Asiatic from the Levant.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
To Xyzman and everyone else who doesn't know. Just because Africans were the first to settle Crete during the Neolithic does not mean they remained the ONLY settlers. There were waves of migrations into Crete from Anatolia and the Levant and even Europe during various periods. Such migrations are even reflected in the Greek legends. Getting back to the crux of this topic, that there was a European presence on Crete by Bronze Age times is not surprising since the oldest records of Indo-European Greek language come from Linear B texts found in Crete.
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Xyzman and everyone else who doesn't know. Just because Africans were the first to settle Crete during the Neolithic does not mean they remained the ONLY settlers. There were waves of migrations into Crete from Anatolia and the Levant and even Europe during various periods. Such migrations are even reflected in the Greek legends. Getting back to the crux of this topic, that there was a European presence on Crete by Bronze Age times is not surprising since the oldest records of Indo-European Greek language come from Linear B texts found in Crete.
Ok, so this is why it's reflected like this?
Plus Hg's Y J2 and E-V13.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Xyzman and everyone else who doesn't know. Just because Africans were the first to settle Crete during the Neolithic does not mean they remained the ONLY settlers. There were waves of migrations into Crete from Anatolia and the Levant and even Europe during various periods. Such migrations are even reflected in the Greek legends. Getting back to the crux of this topic, that there was a European presence on Crete by Bronze Age times is not surprising since the oldest records of Indo-European Greek language come from Linear B texts found in Crete.
Ok, so this is why it's reflected like this?
Plus Hg's Y J2 and E-V13.
Correct. Nobody (at least nobody with sense) is denying Crete had European people present since the Bronze Age. In fact this is reflected in historical records via Linear B and the expansion of the Mycenaean empire into Crete.
quote:Originally posted by the frustrated lyinass,: ^^^^ you are a fvcking asshole
Says the troll so quick to name call and cuss another poster out. Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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Subtyping of Y-chromosomal haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a) by SNP assay and its forensic application S. Caratti, et al.
Here, we describe a system for the molecular dissection of haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a), consisting of multiplex polymerase chain reaction and minisequencing of M78 and nine population-informative Y-SNPs (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65) in a single reaction.
Phylogeny of Y-chromosome haplogroups and their frequencies (%) in the examined populations. Nomenclature and haplogroup labelling according to the Y Chromosome Consortium (http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/) updated according to Karafet et al. 32 *Paragroups: Y chromosomes not defined by any phylogenetic downstream-reported and -examined mutation. aIntrapopulation haplogroup diversity. The terminal markers of haplogroups E-V12 and E-V13 (V32 and V27, respectively) were typed but did not show any variation.
Frequency (left) and variance (right) distributions of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, observed in this survey. Frequency data are reported in Figure 2, variance data are relative to the examined microsatellite reported in the Supplementary Table S2. We acknowledge that interpolated spatial frequency surfaces should be viewed with caution because of sample size.41 Data from this study. Frequency and variance values were assigned to sample-collection places (dots). Population samples (geographically close) with less than five observations were pooled and the corresponding variance assigned to a middle position of the pooled sample locations. +Data from the literature.13, 23, 27, 28, 36, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54
posted
^ What do you mean by "they"? Just to be sure, are you referring to some posters here or the authors of the OP article?
Posts: 26239 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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posted
What happened? I thought the thread was all fucgekd up with oversize pics. Did someone fix it?
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Here we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by analysing mitochondrial DNA from Minoan osseous remains from a cave ossuary in the Lassithi plateau of Crete dated 4,400–3,700 years before present.
Refresh my memory on this Patrol or Truth. YBP uses 1950 as it baseline does it not? If so, 4400-3700 years before 1950 would date their samples to around 2400 BC/BCE. If not I stand corrected, but I am not clear on their dating.
If their sampling is 2400BC, or BCE, this is over 1000 years later than/after the already established Nile Valley civilizations, which of course got more elaborate over its time span leading up to around that period. Their sampling if thus, does not fully address developments in Crete much earlier, which still leaves room for North African influence in the Cretan area, mingled with other influences or migrations for elsewhere. Indeed as assorted writers have noted:
"The portrayal on the 'minature fresco' from Thera, and on the other, very fragmentary Aegean frescoes, of diverse stylistic elements- flora a nd fauna, 'negroid' human representations, the riverine setting, of the 'minature fresco,' etc- that seem to be north African, 'Libyan' or Egyptian in origin." --The Aegean and the Orient in the second millennium: proceedings of the 50th anniversary symposium, Cincinnati, 18-20 April 1997
"Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types, some with delicate features and pointed noses, others pug-nosed, almost negroid.." -- Encyclopedia Britannica 1990 ed. Macropedia Article, Vol 20: Greek and Roman Civilizations
The "Aegean area" in these writings, INCLUDES Crete. WIth a "classic" Bronze Age starting around 3300 BCE per some, this leaves a time range overlap for North African influence. And since "Neolithic times" can be reckoned variously from 12,000 BCE to start, this again leaves plenty of time for North African influence, later joined with ther "Eurasian" influences. As other writers have said "Skeletons show that the population of the Aegean was already mixed by Neolithic times, and various facial types.."
These results might not go over very well with some posters here, especially since African populations like the Egyptians were found to have the most distant genetic relationship from the Minoans.
^^Sure- you will find some posters on here who like to speak about vast African influences in Europe, including assorted pasty-faced kings and white bluebloods- King Philip of Spain anyone? But such claims would not be recognizably "Afrocentric" (yes the term is variable). Few credible "Afrocentric" scholars are running around claiming that Minoan origins are all African. Any such claim would be a bogus strawman set up to "refute." Diop for example, never rushed out to claim any such thing. In his "African Origin of Civilization" Diop argued for a measure of Egyptian INFLUENCE that shaped civ on Crete, and even gives an example of artistic influence, (pg 229, 209, etc) but he never went on claim an African origin for Minoan civilization.
So if you run into any who keep talkin 'bout how "Afrocentrists" supposedly "believe" that Minoan civilization originates in Africa this would be clearly bogus. And there is plenty of room in the Neolithic for various strands of influence to mix, including North African. Different strands would be stronger in different eras.
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: To Xyzman and everyone else who doesn't know. Just because Africans were the first to settle Crete during the Neolithic does not mean they remained the ONLY settlers. There were waves of migrations into Crete from Anatolia and the Levant and even Europe during various periods. Such migrations are even reflected in the Greek legends. Getting back to the crux of this topic, that there was a European presence on Crete by Bronze Age times is not surprising since the oldest records of Indo-European Greek language come from Linear B texts found in Crete.
^^Indeed. And people like Diop recognized this, and make no sweeping claims attributing all of Minoan origin to Egypt. ---------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by xyyman: However there are several FACTS we can learn from all of this.
1. The Cretan people are dark/black skin as they should be depending on latitude and being just off the coast of North Africa.
2. The technology and culture is African.
3. They associated more with Africans.
4. One admixed Crete (eyeball anthropology) does not change that fact.
5. They still carry unique genes found only in Africa and NOT in Europe.
6. Excavations proved the presence of a large Sub-Saharn presence in Crete. Source cited.
7. Obviously they got their cue from Africa since Europe did not have a comparable civilization at that time.
^^You have a point partially, but I think people should be careful of any extensive claims of an African origin. African elements were in place on Crete but there were other influences. A mixed, variable population probably fits the data best. The exact mix I think would depend on the time period being studied. Saying their technology and culture is African also is tricky as a blanket claim, unless you can come up with detailed specifics. Even Diop limited the scope of his argument- influence and interaction yes, blanket Minoan origin claim no.
Originally posted by Troll patrol: ^I get the feeling, they may have lied.
Summarize your argument Patrol. Do you mean they are downplaying certain things? ?
Posts: 5905 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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I find it rather peculiar they did not mention E-V13 in that paper. People who carried E-V13 were suppose to be Neolithic Farmers. Ironically Natufians follow a similar path.
And then we have this:
quote: "Firstly, haplogroup E-M2 (former E1b1a) and haplogroup E-M329 (former E1b1c) are now united by the mutations V38 and V100, reducing the number of E1b1 basal branches to two. The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1* (E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics."
[...]
Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.
--Beniamino Trombetta et al. (2010)
A fresh paper:
Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe
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