...
EgyptSearch Forums Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply
my profile | directory login | register | search | faq | forum home

  next oldest topic   next newest topic
» EgyptSearch Forums » Egyptology » A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete (Page 3)

 - UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!   This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   
Author Topic: A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Troll Patrol:
I find it rather peculiar they did not mention E-V13 in that paper. People who carried E-V13 were suppose to be Neolithic Farmers. Ironically


And then we have this:

quote:

"Firstly, haplogroup E-M2 (former E1b1a) and haplogroup E-M329 (former E1b1c) are now united by the mutations V38 and V100, reducing the number of E1b1 basal branches to two. The new topology of the tree has important implications concerning the origin of haplogroup E1b1. Secondly, within E1b1b1 (E-M35), two haplogroups (E-V68 and E-V257) show similar phylogenetic and geographic structure, pointing to a genetic bridge between southern European and northern African Y chromosomes. Thirdly, most of the E1b1b1* (E-M35*) paragroup chromosomes are now marked by defining mutations, thus increasing the discriminative power of the haplogroup for use in human evolution and forensics."

[...]

Within E-M35, there are striking parallels between two haplogroups, E-V68 and E-V257. Both contain a lineage which has been frequently observed in Africa (E-M78 and E-M81, respectively) [6], [8], [10], [13]–[16] and a group of undifferentiated chromosomes that are mostly found in southern Europe (Table S2). An expansion of E-M35 carriers, possibly from the Middle East as proposed by other Authors [14], and split into two branches separated by the geographic barrier of the Mediterranean Sea, would explain this geographic pattern. However, the absence of E-V68* and E-V257* in the Middle East (Table S2) makes a maritime spread between northern Africa and southern Europe a more plausible hypothesis. A detailed analysis of the Y chromosomal microsatellite variation associated with E-V68 and E-V257 could help in gaining a better understanding of the likely timing and place of origin of these two haplogroups.

--Beniamino Trombetta et al. (2010)


Reconstructing ancient mitochondrial DNA links between Africa and Europe

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3337428/pdf/821.pdf

It is intresting that population geneticist use the slave trade to explain african presence outside Africa.

Also interestingly they don't identify which genes are ancient.

The failure to accept a voluntary migration of Africans to Eurpe makes many, if not all of their conclusions suspect.

.

Posts: 12261 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Ish Gebor
Member
Member # 18264

Member Rated:
4
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Ish Gebor   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^ agreed!
Posts: 18871 | From: pAsidaw SIGILLUM SECRETUM | Registered: Nov 2010  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Omo Baba
Member
Member # 18816

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Omo Baba         Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -
Posts: 314 | From: Home | Registered: Apr 2011  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
mena7
Member
Member # 20555

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for mena7   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Beautiful coin of black Greek Omo BaBa. Black African created Minoan civilization, Greek civilization, Etruscan civilization, and Roman civilization. We have to honor or ancestor by putting them back in world history.
Posts: 4815 | From: sepedat/sirius | Registered: Jul 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Amun-Ra The Ultimate
Member
Member # 20039

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Amun-Ra The Ultimate     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by mena7:
Beautiful coin of black Greek Omo BaBa. Black African created Minoan civilization, Greek civilization, Etruscan civilization, and Roman civilization. We have to honor or ancestor by putting them back in world history.

Not because there was an African presence in Europe in Ancient times that they created all the civilizations there. Lets leave that kind of thinking to the euronuts of the past. From what I gathered, the influence of these attested African presence still needs to be determined.
Posts: 2981 | Registered: Jan 2012  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
quote:
Originally posted by Amun-Ra The Ultimate:
quote:
Originally posted by mena7:
Beautiful coin of black Greek Omo BaBa. Black African created Minoan civilization, Greek civilization, Etruscan civilization, and Roman civilization. We have to honor or ancestor by putting them back in world history.

Not because there was an African presence in Europe in Ancient times that they created all the civilizations there. Lets leave that kind of thinking to the euronuts of the past. From what I gathered, the influence of these attested African presence still needs to be determined.
Except for Rome and Greece what civilizations did Europeans create?

Contemporary European civilizations are the result of Black Muslim influence in Europe. In fact the first "universities" in Europe were founded by the Black Moors.

.

Posts: 12261 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Fourty2Tribes
Member
Member # 21799

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Fourty2Tribes   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

Its hard to tell if he is concave or toothless.

I... know.... late reply

Posts: 696 | From: howdy | Registered: Mar 2014  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Djehuti
Member
Member # 6698

Rate Member
Icon 4 posted      Profile for Djehuti     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
But more importantly...

quote:
A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete


Jeffery R. Hughey, Peristera Paschou, Petros Drineas, Donald Mastropaolo, Dimitra M. Lotakis, Patrick A. Navas, Manolis Michalodimitrakis, John A. Stamatoyannopoulos & George Stamatoyannopoulos
https://www.nature.com/articles/ncomms2871

...In this study, we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by comparing Minoan mtDNA polymorphisms with those of 135 modern and ancient populations. We study skeletal remains from two Minoan populations, one in central Crete, the other in southern Crete. Following the application of a series of strict authentication criteria, we use for our comparisons the DNAs of only 37 Minoans whose remains were well preserved in a cave ossuary located in the Lassithi plateau of east-central Crete. We determine mtDNA polymorphisms using two different methods applied in two different laboratories. Our calculations of genetic distances, haplotype sharing and principal component analysis (PCA) **exclude a North African origin of the Minoans. Instead, we find that the highest genetic affinity of the Minoans is with Neolithic and modern European populations. We conclude that the most likely origin of the Minoans is the Neolithic population that migrated to Europe about 9,000 YBP.** We propose that the Minoan civilization most likely was developed by the autochthonous population of the Bronze Age Crete.
Comparisons of Minoans with North African populations
A data set containing HVS-1 sequences of 135 modern and ancient populations was used for comparisons with the sequences of the Minoans (Supplementary Table S4). For several statistical analyses, the modern populations were grouped to 71 geographic or ethnic groups (Supplementary Table S4). Twenty-one distinct Minoan mtDNA haplotypes were observed, six were unique to the Minoans and fifteen were shared with modern and ancient populations (Fig. 2). None of the Minoans carried the characteristic African mtDNA haplotypes of the L haplogroup (Supplementary Table S2). Furthermore, calculations of the average pairwise genetic distances (Supplementary Table S5) illustrate the great genetic distance between the Minoans and the Egyptian, the Libyan and the other North African population s (Table 1). Figure 3a shows graphically in the form of geographic density maps the shared mtDNA lineages between the Minoans and 71 extant population groups. Notice that the Minoans displayed the least sharing of haplotypes with North Africans. Figures 2b and 4 present the percentages of sharing between the Minoan mtDNA haplotypes with various population groups; notice again that the least frequencies of sharing are with North African populations. PCA also demonstrates that the Minoans are clearly distanced from the Egyptian, Libyan and North African populations (Fig. 5, Supplementary Table S6). These data strongly argue against the Evans hypothesis of Egyptian or Libyan origin of the founders of the Minoan civilization. The North African influence on the Minoan civilization was most likely accomplished through cultural exchange....

Andromeda was the first to point this out, but the journal 'Nature' published the above findings that Minoans of ancient Crete were NOT related to North Africans like the Egyptians and Libyans but rather to the first farmers of the Levant, yet the more recent paper from 'Nature' on the Egyptian Abusir Mummies say these mummies are also related to the first farmers and not "Africans"! One can see the contradiction here. Why does it seem like nobody is pointing this out??

--------------------
Mahirap gisingin ang nagtutulog-tulugan.

Posts: 23494 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
 -

.

The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers

Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.

 -


Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.


A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.

This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.

The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.


Keftiu

The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.

On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:

Keftiu....... Manding

sh h.r........ Sye

Nsy ..........Nsye

'ksh .........Nkyi

Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)

'dm ..........Demba

Rs............. Rsa

This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.

In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.


 -


See my movie discussing the African heritage of Socretes,Homer and the heroes of Homer's work.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hAhQWeFRgOI


Heroes of Homer were Black Africans


 -

.

Eteo-Cretans

 -


Historians have known for years that the original Cretans were replaced by an Indo-European population after 1500 BC, as a result, we have Linear A, written by the original Minoans, and Linear B written by the Indo-Aryan speaking Minoans.

The people in this study were mainly Indo-European speakers. In the Supplement, the authors make it clear that they used dna from Lassithi cave sample. This dna is roughly dated to "1800" BC. The dna is probably much younger and as a result, it would reflect the invading Indo-European population not the Keftiu=Eteo-Cretans/Eteo-Minoans.

This dna study is just an attempt to protray the Cretans as non-Africa. The dna evidence disputes this myth, because most belong to haplogroups H and U5.

I discuss the probable African origin of haplogroup U5 In my Blog Bafsudralam .

The highest concentration of U5 is found among Berbers in NWA . It is also carried by Mande and Fulani Niger-Congo speakers in West Africa (1-4).

The U5 haplogroup carried by the Mande, like other SSWA is characterized by 16189,16192,16270 and 16320.
The presence of hg U5 among the Mande speakers supports the linguistic evidence concerning the Keftiu.


Pierron, et al (2013) proposes that haplogroup H entered Africa from the Middle East. Pierron et al, date the hg H older than 9k. They wrote:

quote:

The dates calculated from our data are in good agreement with this theory, since we dated the appearance of H and HV0 (ex pre-V) in the Middle East around 29,000 years before the Last Glacial Maximum. These haplogroups would then have been distributed throughout Europe. At the time of the Last Glacial Maximum, between 22,000 and 18,000 years BP, the H and HV0 haplogroups sheltered in the Franco-Cantabrian zone. Then the H1, (18,160 years BP), H3 (15,671 years BP), and V (16,428 years BP) haplogroups appeared as the climate started to improve and Europe was re-colonized. The U5b haplogroup also appeared (17,963 years BP) in the same area during that period. These four haplogroups re-populated Northern Europe in the same way as the haplogroups from the Southwest shelter zone.

But the idea that hg H is the result of a back migration from Europe to Africa, does not agree with the distribution of hg H in Africa. It is clear from the map that hg H is not found in Egypt. This seems strange because if it had entered Africa as the result of a back migration there should be more carriers of hg H in Egypt.
.
 -
.
Badro et al (2013) published a map of African mtDNA. The map makes it clear that hg H is primarily found in Northwest and West Africa this would support the spread of hg into Europe via Iberia, rather than a back migration to Africa from the Middle East.
A back migration of hg H from Iberia to Africa is unlikely. In any area of research you look for the obvious , this would be true of the origination and spread of hg H. Obviously, if hg H originated in the Middle East, it would have spread from the Levant into Egypt, since Egypt is closer to the Middle East, than Iberia.

 -

Badro et al (2013) has examined the frequency of hg H. These researchers found the highest frequency of hg H in the Libyan Sahara (61.29), Morocco (23.4%), Libya (25.8%), Mali (52.4%) and Burkina-Faso (22.5%).If hg H originated in the Levant there should be more carriers of hg H in the Middle East and Europe, than Sub-Saharan Africa (SSA).


If hg H in Africa is the result of a back migration the highest frequencies of this genome should move from the Levant through Arabia, Egypt and East Africa into the Sahara. But this is not the case in Egypt and Kenya there is o.o% of hg H, Saudi Arabia 8.7% and Yemen 4.7%.
Instead of the highest frequencies of hg H moving from the Levant into Africa, we find that the migration of hg H is reversed. The frequency of hg H, decreases from Western Europe e.g., France 45.4% to 25% in Palestine.
The frequency of hg H in Eurasia and Africa, suggest that hg H originated in Africa, and probably spread into Europe from Salelian Africa to Iberia and thence the Middle East. I believe most carriers of hg H migrated to Western Europe during the African invasion of Spain by Moors and Berbers and spread across Europe into the Middle East.
In summary, the presence of hg H in Europe is probably of recent origin. The Tuareg and other Black Berber groups probably helped spread H in Europe after they invaded Europe along with other sahelians/Moors during the Islamic period.

References:
Badro DA, Douaihy B, Haber M, Youhanna SC, Salloum A, et al. (2013) Y-Chromosome and mtDNA Genetics Reveal Significant Contrasts in Affinities of Modern Middle Eastern Populations with European and African Populations. PLoS ONE 8(1): e54616. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0054616 http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0054616

Pierron D, Chang I, Arachiche A, Heiske M, Thomas O, et al. (2011) Mutation Rate Switch inside Eurasian Mitochondrial Haplogroups: Impact of Selection and Consequences for Dating Settlement in Europe. PLoS ONE 6(6): e21543. doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0021543
Winters,C.(2012). There has been a Continuous Indigenous Sub-Saharan Presence in North Africa for 30ky. Comment: . http://olmec98.net/ContinuousEurope.pdf

Footnotes

1. Cerný V., Hajek M., Bromova M., Cmejla R., Diallo I. & Brdicka R. 2006. MtDNA of Fulani nomads and their genetic relationships to neighboring sedentary populations. Hum. Biol., 78: 9-27.

2. Rosa A, Brehem A. 2011. African human mtDNA phylogeography at-a-glance. J. Anthropol. Sci, 89:25-58.

3. Coia V., Destro-Bisol G., Verginelli F., Battaggia C., Boschi I., Cruciani F., Spedini G., Comas D. & Calafell F. 2005. Brief communication: mtDNA variation in North Cameroon: lack of Asian lineages and implications for back migration from Asia to sub-Saharan Africa. Am. J. Phys. Anthropol., 128: 678-681.

4. Ely B., Wilson J.L., Jackson F. & Jackson B.A. 2006. African-American mitochondrial DNAs often match mtDNAs found in multiple African ethnic groups. BMC. Biol., 4: 34.
.

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 12261 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
Clyde Winters
Member
Member # 10129

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for Clyde Winters   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
Some researchers love to lie and make Black populations into “white” populations. In a recent article researchers claim that the Minoans were white because the majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5A, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual. As a result, if the majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups mtDNA H (43.2%) they represent a Black population not white population, since this mtDNA is carried by the Tuareg who are Black.


The Y-chromosomes of Cretans also indicate the Cretans were Blacks Laisel Martinez et al , Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau, Eur J Hum Genet. 2007 http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html

provides a detailed discussion of the y-chromosomes in Crete.


The presence of y-chromosomes R1b, T, K and H in Crete indicate that the Cretans were Black.

.
 -

.
Martinez et al (2007), observed that In the case of the R1 haplogroup, while frequencies of 19.2% and 21.7% are found in the Heraklion Prefecture and Lasithi Prefecture populations, respectively, more than half (56.1%) of the Lasithi Plateau individuals are R1-M306-derived.

In the case of Cretan E3b3-M123 (M34) chromosomes, they most likely signal East African or Middle-Eastern gene flow rather than European, due to the scarcity of this lineage in the latter area.19, 26 Similarly, the presence of E3b-M35* individuals in the Heraklion Prefecture population could probably be attributed to an East-African or North-African contribution.

This is interesting because researchers claim that haplotype H indicates that the Siddis, an African population in India are African because they carry haplotype H. Ramana et al (2001) claims that the discovery of H1 and H2 haplotypes among the Siddis is a “signature” of their African ancestry.

The finding that other Minoans carried haplotype T and K also indicates that the Minoans were Blacks, not whites. There are a number of shared African and Indian Y-chromosome haplotypes. These haplotypes include Y-hg T-M70 and H1. Haplogroup T-M70 is found among several Dravidian speaking tribal groups in South India, including the Yerukul (or Kurru) , Gonds and Kols. Y-haplogroup T-M70 is found in the eastern and southern regions of India (Trivedi et al, 2008). It has a relatively high frequency in Uttar Pradesh and Madhya Pradesh (Sharma et al, 2009). Sharma et al (2009) in a study of 674 Dalits found that 89.39 % belonged to Y-hg K*, in relation to Dravidian speakers it was revealed that Y-hg T-M70 was 11.1%. Trevedi et al (2008) report that Y-hg T-M70 is predominately found among Upper Caste Dravidians at a frequency of 31.9. The highest frequency of T-M70 in the World is found among the Fulani (18%) of West Africa. Martinez et al (2007) also found T-M70 and hg K in Crete see the figure above.

Ramana et al (2001) claims that the discovery of H1 and H2 haplotypes among the Siddis is a “signature” of their African ancestry. As a result, the Y-hg H1 subclade frequency among Dravidian speakers can also be considered as an indicator of an African-Cretan-Dravidian connection.

The H1 haplotype is found among many Dravidians. Sengupta et al (2006) noted that the subclades H1 and H2 were found among 26% of the Dravidian speakers in their study, especially in Tamil Nadu. Trivedi et al (2008) found the Y-hg H1 frequency of 22.2 among Dravidian speakers in their study. Sharma et al (2008) reports a frequency rate of 25.2%.

In conclusion, because the majority of Minoans were classified in mtdna haplogroups H (43.2%), the ancient Minoans were Black, not white, since the Tuareg are Blacks. The presence of y-chromosomes R1-306,R1b, T, K and H in Crete indicate that the Cretans were Black.


.

References:
Laisel Martinez et al , Paleolithic Y-haplogroup heritage predominates in a Cretan highland plateau, Eur J Hum Genet. 2007 http://www.nature.com/ejhg/journal/v15/n4/full/5201769a.html

Ramana, G. V., Su, B., Jin, L., Singh, L., Wang, N., Underhill, P. & Chakraborty, R. (2001) Y-chromosome SNP haplotypes suggest evidence of gene flow among caste, tribe, and the migrant Siddi populations of Andhra Pradesh, South India. Eur J Hum Genet 9, 695 – 700. http://archive.is/UlNyk


Sengupta S, Zhivottovsky LA, King R, Mehdi SQ, Edmonds CA, Chow C-E T, Lin AA, Mitra M, Sil SK, Ramesh A, Rani MVU, Thakur CT, Cavalli-Sforza LL, Majumder PP, Underhill PA. (2006). Polarity and temporality of high-resolution Y-Chromosome distributions in India Identify both indigenous and exogenous expansions and reveal minor genetic influence of Central Asian Pastoralists. Am J of Hum Genet, 78 (2):202-221.

Sharma S, Rai E, Sharma P, Jena M, Singh S, Darvishi K, Bhat AK, Bhanwer AJS, Tiwari PK & Bamezai NK.(2009). The Indian origin of paternal R1a1* substantiates the autochthonous origin of Brahmins and the caste system. J of Hum Genet, 54: 47-55.


Trivedi R, Sahoo S, Singh A, Bindu GH, Banerjee J, Tandon M, Gaikwad S, Rajkumar R, Sitalaximi T, Ashma R, Chainy GBN, & Kashyap VK. (2008). Genetic imprints of pleistocene origin of Indian populations: A comprehensive Phylogeographic sketch of Indian Y-Chromosomes. Int J Hum Genet, 8(1-2): 97-118

--------------------
C. A. Winters

Posts: 12261 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
xyyman
Banned
Member # 13597

Rate Member
Icon 1 posted      Profile for xyyman   Author's Homepage     Send New Private Message       Edit/Delete Post   Reply With Quote 
^A European population in Minoan Bronze Age Crete

--------------------
Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming

Posts: 9995 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007  |  IP: Logged | Report this post to a Moderator
  This topic comprises 3 pages: 1  2  3   

Quick Reply
Message:

HTML is not enabled.
UBB Code™ is enabled.

Instant Graemlins
   


Post New Topic  New Poll  Post A Reply Close Topic   Feature Topic   Move Topic   Delete Topic next oldest topic   next newest topic
 - Printer-friendly view of this topic
Hop To:


Contact Us | EgyptSearch!

(c) 2015 EgyptSearch.com

Powered by UBB.classic™ 6.7.3