quote:The first advanced Bronze Age civilization of Europe was established by the Minoans about 5,000 years before present. Since Sir Arthur Evans exposed the Minoan civic centre of Knossos, archaeologists have speculated on the origin of the founders of the civilization. Evans proposed a North African origin; Cycladic, Balkan, Anatolian and Middle Eastern origins have also been proposed. Here we address the question of the origin of the Minoans by analysing mitochondrial DNA from Minoan osseous remains from a cave ossuary in the Lassithi plateau of Crete dated 4,400–3,700 years before present. Shared haplotypes, principal component and pairwise distance analyses refute the Evans North African hypothesis. Minoans show the strongest relationships with Neolithic and modern European populations and with the modern inhabitants of the Lassithi plateau. Our data are compatible with the hypothesis of an autochthonous development of the Minoan civilization by the descendants of the Neolithic settlers of the island.
These results might not go over very well with some posters here, especially since African populations like the Egyptians were found to have the most distant genetic relationship from the Minoans.
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posted
Don't know to what extent Keith was generalizing his observations of a Northern African origin to the Cretan population in general (my understanding has always been that he didn't), but it seems unreasonable to test skeletal remains other than the ones Keith has studied and come to the conclusion that he has been refuted. For instance, I wouldn't be surprised at all if aDNA from certain Natufian skeletal remains would show little relationship with Northeast Africans. This however, would not necessarily refute Brace's and Keith's observations about the African affinity of certain Natufian skeletal remains.
Oh, great find and thanks for posting.
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posted
That's a good point you bring up about the Minoan population possibly having greater diversity than this study would imply by sampling only one portion of that population, but I forgot who Keith was.
posted
I dont think many people here believe the Minoans to be anything but a Southern European civilization with ties to Egypt via trade and possibly some Egyptian and Kushite immigrants, at least the serious posters.
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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When reading articles such as this one the first thing I check out is who are the authors/researchers. Who is the lead ie big dog. This paper is written by a bunch of “nobodies” and no acclaimed geneticist has put his/her name on it. BUT!!! ……Unlike Euros I do not focus on the personalities but I look at the data. So let’s look at the data.
In short …there is no new disclosure here. What I have noticed is there is a pattern in the use of the word “affinity’ etc. Many here and on the race forums hear ……or see “affinity” and their knee jerk reaction is “origin’. The issue is really “origin” and not “affinity” of peoples during Neolithic times to the colonial times. Isn’t it? Good, we got that out of the way. Case in point is the Henn thread. Some read affinity and hear North Africans are migrants from Arabia. That is NOT what Henn reported. Similarly that study on Etruscan DNA by Macualay et al.concluding the Etruscans were from Anatolia. 1 year later Babujani/Bramanti et al reassessed the same data and showed a mis-interpretation and that ancient Anatolians AND the Etruscans had the similar ancestral population, ie peoples further SOUTH!!!, they are not sure where(wink wink). That is where the use of HAPMAP will come in useful. I got to get on it. Anyways , Anatolians are NOT the ancestral population of the Etruscans.
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posted
Where I am going with this? Play on words, affinity, are not uncommon. Another one we recently discussed was bronze age Sardinians. Sage and Lioness will remember this one. The author remarked on the close affinity between bronze age Sardinians and Modern Europeans. However, later added Sardinians originated from Iberia. Again from the south. And glossed over North Africa is south and that the ancient Sardinians and North Africans share 3 unique haplotypes NOT found in modern Europeans. (One) of these unique haplotype were found in ancient Iberians also. They also included North Africans as Euroepans to skew that chart towards Europe. The logical conclusion is …. North Africa is the source population of BOTH these indigenous Sardinians and Iberians population and not mainland Europe. Mainland Europe is the recipient of African genes and that explains some affinity seen.
Now on to the article.
I have to look at the supplementals but the main article has the same old theme. Affinity to modern Euroepans…yes…but is mainland Europe the source?…no!!. They clearly state that!!!. Most probable source is Sardinia followed by Iberia. Here we go again. He! He!. They just won’t give up!!
North Africa is in play but they did not state what the similar haplotypes shared between the North Africans and ancient Cretians. That will answer the question of origin..
What do you think Lioness? Evans got it right Cretians are from the south ie North Africa.
There is one thing that has me confused. It is creeping into many of the recent articles. It seems like the trend has shifted the Neolithic origin in Europe from the Levant to speculating it originated in Iberia. This article states that Iberia was the source of these Neolithic peoples that migrated to Crete. That recent thread that Mike started on Europeans also speculated on the something similar. They speculated that Modern Europeans (female) originated from Iberia and spread throughout Europe at about 2000BC replacing older European populations. I am happy to see they are giving up on the old refugia theory from last ice age. Also changing their origin from the Levant or Middle East. But humans did not magically appear in Iberia.
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I am waiting on one of these renowned geneticist to develop the guts and report on the resolution of MtDNA hg-H between Iberia and North Africa. I believe Wells(Spencer) and his crew already showed the age of hg-H is about the same, with North Africa having a slight edge(posted already here or ESR). Proper resolution will show which is older. Many don’t want to touch that one else the walls may come crumbling down.
Hell! May be they will eventually. After all they are now in Iberia. Next stop North Africa. One step at a time. That takes care of the females. Now where did the European male come from?
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There is one thing that has me confused. It is creeping into many of the recent articles. It seems like the trend has shifted the Neolithic origin in Europe from the Levant to speculating it originated in Iberia. This article states that Iberia was the source of these Neolithic peoples that migrated to Crete. That recent thread that Mike started on Europeans also speculated on the something similar. They speculated that Modern Europeans (female) originated from Iberia and spread throughout Europe at about 2000BC replacing older European populations. I am happy to see they are giving up on the old refugia theory from last ice age. Also changing their origin from the Levant or Middle East. But humans did not magically appear in Iberia.
In fact it greatly supports the refugia theory.
the Franco-Cantabrian region (in northern Iberia) is one of the Refgia
quote:Originally posted by Mikey111: NEWSSTORY:
Ancient Europeans mysteriously vanished 4,500 years ago Published April 23, 2013 - LiveScience
The genetic lineage of Europe mysteriously transformed about 4,500 years ago, new research suggests.
The new study also confirms that people sweeping out from Turkey colonized Europe, likely as a part of the agricultural revolution, reaching Germany about 7,500 years ago.
the earliest farmers in Germany were closely related to Near Eastern and Anatolian people
purple refugia area on the map. people of Black Sea Turkish/Italy region etc then go into Central Europe 7,500 years ago. Where were they from before that? The Near East aka Levant (the group you hate) -and they repalced earlier Paleolithic hunter gatherers prior to the time periods discussed in these articles
quote:Originally posted by Mikey111: NEWSSTORY:
Ancient Europeans mysteriously vanished 4,500 years ago Published April 23, 2013 - LiveScience
then suddenly replaced around 4,500 years ago,
Instead, about 5,000 to 4,000 years ago, the genetic profile changes radically, suggesting that some mysterious event led to a huge turnover in the population that made up Europe. The Bell Beaker culture, which emerged from the Iberian Peninsula around 2800 B.C., may have played a role in this genetic turnover. The culture, which may have been responsible for erecting some of the megaliths at Stonehenge, is named for its distinctive bell-shaped ceramics and its rich grave goods. The culture also played a role in the expansion of Celtic languages along the coast.
"We have established that the genetic foundations for modern Europe were only established in the Mid-Neolithic, after this major genetic transition around 4,000 years ago,"
the Iberian people from the red area refugia on the map ^^^^
So the migrants who came from Anatolia refugia who originally came from the Levant went into Central Europe 7500 years ago
were replaced 3500 year laters by Iberian refugia-ins and these according to you, very black peoples, were the ancestors of modern Europeans
yes it dovetails perfectly with your concepts
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The Ancient Minoans: Keftiu were Mande Speakers
Every since Arthur Evans discovered the Hieroglyphic and Linear A writing of Crete there has been a search for the authors of this writing.
Some Grecian traditions indicate that Libyans (called Garamante) formerly lived on Crete. This suggest that some of the Eteocretans may have spoken one of the ancient languages of Libya.
A major group from Libya that settled Crete were the Garamante. Robert Graves in (Vol.1, pp.33-35) maintains that the Garamante who originally lived in the Fezzan fused with the inhabitants of the Upper Niger region of West Africa.
This theory is interesting because the chariot routes from the Fezzan terminated at the Niger river. In addition, the Cretan term for king "Minos", agrees with the MandeManding word for ruler "Mansa". Both these terms share consonantal agreement : M N S.
The name Garamante, illustrates affinity to Mande morphology and grammar. The Mande language is a member of the Niger-Congo group of languages. The name for the Manding tribe called "Mande", means Ma 'mother, and nde 'children', can be interpreted as "Children of Ma", or "Mothers children " (descent among this group is matrilineal) . The word Garamante,can be broken down into Malinke-Bambara into the following monosyllabic words Ga 'hearth', arid, hot'; Mante/Mande , the name of the Mande speaking tribes. This means that the term: Garamante, can be interpreted as "Mande of the Arid lands" or "Arid lands of the children of Ma". This last term is quite interesting because by the time the Greeks and Romans learned about the Garamante, the Fezzan was becoming increasingly arid.
Keftiu
The root kef-, in Keftiu, probably is Ke'be, the name of a Manding clan , plus the locative suffix {i-} used to give the affirmative sense, plus the plural suffix for names {u-}, and the {-te} suffixial element used to denote place names, nationalities and to form words.
On the Egyptian writing board there are eight Keftiu names. These names agree with Manding names:
Keftiu....... Manding
sh h.r........ Sye
Nsy ..........Nsye
'ksh .........Nkyi
Pnrt Pe,..... Beni (name for twins)
'dm ..........Demba
Rs............. Rsa
This analogy between Keftiu and Manding names is startling.
In conclusion, the evidence of similarity between Keftiu names and names from the Manding languages appear to support Graves view that the Eteocretans, who early settled Crete may have spoken a language similar to the Mande people who live near the Niger. Conseqently, there is every possibility that the Linear A script used by the Keftiu, which is analogous to the Libyco Berber writing used by the Proto-Mande .This is further support to Cambell-Dunn' s hypothesis that the Minoans spoke a Niger-Congo language.
See my movie discussing the African heritage of Socretes,Homer and the heroes of Homer's work.
posted
^ your picture spam will not do it, more is needed.
Whe need the microscope!!!
Here, we describe a system for the molecular dissection of haplogroup E-M78 (E1b1b1a), consisting of multiplex polymerase chain reaction and minisequencing of M78 and nine population-informative Y-SNPs (M148, M224, V12, V13, V19, V22, V27, V32, V65) in a single reaction.
Phylogeny of Y-chromosome haplogroups and their frequencies (%) in the examined populations. Nomenclature and haplogroup labelling according to the Y Chromosome Consortium (http://ycc.biosci.arizona.edu/) updated according to Karafet et al. 32 *Paragroups: Y chromosomes not defined by any phylogenetic downstream-reported and -examined mutation. aIntrapopulation haplogroup diversity. The terminal markers of haplogroups E-V12 and E-V13 (V32 and V27, respectively) were typed but did not show any variation.
Frequency (left) and variance (right) distributions of the main Y-chromosome haplogroups, I-M423, E-V13 and J-M241, observed in this survey. Frequency data are reported in Figure 2, variance data are relative to the examined microsatellite reported in the Supplementary Table S2. We acknowledge that interpolated spatial frequency surfaces should be viewed with caution because of sample size.41 Data from this study. Frequency and variance values were assigned to sample-collection places (dots). Population samples (geographically close) with less than five observations were pooled and the corresponding variance assigned to a middle position of the pooled sample locations. +Data from the literature.13, 23, 27, 28, 36, 45, 49, 50, 51, 52, 53, 54
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Clyde when did the first whites arrive in Greece and where did they come from?
when I say "white" I'm including these types:
BJMG 11/2 (2008) 25-30 10.2478/v10034-008-0030-0
Litvinov S* et al.
Although it was not possible to determine a contribution of Neolithic farmers to the Caucasian gene pool, the principal component analysis showed clear differences between these populations and those of Europe, Siberia and Asia. No evidence of correlation between genetic and linguistic data in our populations was disclosed.
While an Alu insertion marker does not have enough power of resolution to assess the contribution of the influence of Neolithic farmers on the Caucasian gene pool, it clearly separates both South and North Caucasus populations (except Karanogays) from Siberian and Asian populations.
posted
Just read some of the supplementals? Are these people for real. Ha! Ha! Ha! Aha! Aha! Aha! Are they kidding me?! Clyde is correct...
Lioness?? Here are more that I like. He! He!
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It is the same result as the Sardinia bronze age study. GTFOH!!!
Unique haplotypes found only among ancient Crete and North Africans. Not found in mainland Europe. Same as Bronze age Sardinians.
HAAAAA! HAAAA!
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Α, haplotype 1 shared with 63 populations Ε, haplotype 16 shared with 6 populations; F, haplotype 17 shared with 4 populations; G, haplotype 18 shared with 13 populations: [b]Η, haplotype 20 shared with 1 population[b/]
To those who don’t get it. This is really fascinating. This is exactly the same pattern we see when DNA analysis was performed on Bronze Age Sardinians. Sardinia, like, Crete is off the coast of North Africa which is currently claimed by Europe. They think since they colonized African land they can claim the history and achievements. How pathetic and delusional.
Modern politics and geographical boundaries do not apply to pre-historical or historical times.
The ancient genetic data being released is showing that bronze age Sardinians, Ancient Crete and the Etruscans are peoples from the African continent just as Evans, Smith and Sergi suggested analyzing cranial, archeological and cultural data.
On a side note – anyone notice the high haplogroup variability in the samples? It is as if all modern haplogroups currently found in Europe is present. That is highly unusual for aDNA. Especially that far south. There is even a R0, HV and T3 in there and only one 2 Us. Huh?? Stay tuned. Babujani and his crew may reassess the data. Don’t be surprised if you here about falsified data one year from now. After all this was study was done by Greeks!!
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A few weeks ago I was asking about “porotic hyperostosis”….. . While I was researching ancient peoples of Crete and Sardinia I came to find out there was racism even in deseases
eg quote:
From: Thalassaemia Major in the Sudan(1965)
This case drew attention to the existence of thalassaemia in Sudanese people. This paper deals with a case of thalassaemia major in a Sudanese family that is in no way related to people of Mediterranean stock. ……..suggesting that thalassaemia major occurs more often in the Sudan than has been previously supposed.
From the threads opening Article citation #30.
30. Hughey, J. R., Du, M., Li, Q., Michalodimitrakis, M. & Stamatoyannopoulos, G. A search for b thalassemia mutations in 4000 year old ancient DNAs of Minoan Cretans. Blood Cell Mol. Dis. 48, 7–10 (2012).
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Where am I goimng with this? As usual Europeans are way ahead of us. I thought I was onto something but as you can see they are on it already ..searching for that link.
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I know I said I was going to ignore the personalities but…I couldn’t resist. Are these these the same guys that wrote that article? They are desperately try to obtain data in support of their delusion that THEY are the original Greeks. Ho! Ho!
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From:
30. Hughey, J. R., Du, M., Li, Q., Michalodimitrakis, M. & Stamatoyannopoulos, G.
A search for b thalassemia mutations in 4000 year old ancient DNAs of Minoan Cretans. Blood Cell Mol. Dis. 48, 7–10 (2012)
Ancient DNA methodologies can be applied in the investigation of the genetics of extinct populations. A search for beta thalassemia mutations was performed on 49 Minoan individuals from the Bronze Age who were living in the island of Crete approximately 4,000 Years Before Present (YBP). Standard precautionary measures were employed in the laboratory to ensure authenticity of the DNA extracted from the ancient bones, resulting in the successful analysis of DNA of 24 Minoans. DNA sequencing focused on the Intervening Sequence 1 (IVS-1) of the beta globin gene and its splicing junctions. 63% of the thalassemia mutations observed among modern Cretans reside in beta IVS -1. None of the Minoan individuals carried one of the IVS-1 mutations known to cause beta thalassemia; however, only one was expected to be observed if the average frequency of beta thalassemia heterozygotes in the Minoan population was the same with that of modern day Cretans (7.6 %). One individual contained a C to G substitution in position 91 of the IVS-1, located 40 bp 5′ to the intron 1/exon 2 junction. Functional studies indicated that the mutation did not affect mRNA splicing or stability, and most likely represented an innocent single nucleotide polymorphism.
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I was researching to b thalassemia mutations to corroborate North African ancestry of Crete, but this crew is already on it. And the result is……no!!!. Extant populations of Crete do not share the same mutation of b thalassemia mutations compared to populations 4000ya. Not a surprise. Ha! Ha! This crew failed through b thalassemia, now they tried through haplotypes and failed there also. What is next?
Now the question is …is it the Sudanese type?. We may never know……….
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Just read some of the supplementals? Are these people for real. Ha! Ha! Ha! Aha! Aha! Aha! Are they kidding me?! Clyde is correct...
Your modus operandi is always the same. The first thing you try to impress people with is that you looked at the suppliments as if that is a conspiratorial hiding place. Then you chop out and circle anything African, disregarding the context and this you use to assume African origin of any topic being discussed. (the C & C method, Chop and Circle)
the supplimental data has charts A - H You cut out A - D and circle E - H thinking it's in Africa not realizing in these hard to read maps that you actually circled the Levant, lol
quote: It is likely, says Stamatoyannopoulos, that the Minoans descended from Neolithic populations that migrated to Europe from the Middle East and Turkey.
quote: The Minoan mtDNA haplotypes resembled those of the European populations (Figs 2b, 3a and 4; Supplementary Figs S1–S3). The majority of Minoans were classified in haplogroups H (43.2%), T (18.9%), K (16.2%) and I (8.1%). Haplogroups U5A, W, J2, U, X and J were each identified in a single individual. The greatest percentage of shared Minoan haplotypes was observed with European populations, particularly with individuals from Northern and Western Europe (26.98% and 29.28%, respectively) (Figs 2, 3, 4; Supplementary Table S7). Notably, in Fig. 4, a gradient can be observed, with the lowest affinity for Minoans found with Northern African populations and the percentage of haplotype sharing increasing as we move through the Middle East, Caucasus and the Mediterranean islands, southern Europe and mainland Europe (Fig. 4a). Of notice also is the high percentage of haplotype sharing with Bronze Age (Fig. 4c) and Neolithic (Fig. 4d) European populations.
posted
Sensation al claims?…..more feel good headliners to give Europeans that warm and fuzzy feeling that Europe belongs to them and they are somehow part of those great ancient civilization. Talk about the need to be pampered and psychosis. That is what a deficiency of melanin does.
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By George Stamatoyannopoulos et al, the Greek crew.
Introduction Since its inception in 1984 the use of ancient DNA in addressing biological questions has led to the genetic characterization of species and populations from all major biological lineages [1,2]. The discipline, molecular archaeology, did not however immediately flourish without debate. Its inauguration was led by a series of sensational claims, many of which were invalidated [3]. Despite its dubious beginning, the discipline now operates under strict
Conclusion: Our results do not allow us to draw any definite conclusions about the frequency of β thalassemias in the Minoans. ( Because we did not find any.)
On the average, 64% of the β thalassemias in the Greek population are due to mutations at IVS-1 [20].
In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21].
Presumably high frequencies of IVS-1 mutations were characteristic of the ancient Mediterranean and Anatolian populations.
The average frequency of heterozygous β thalassemia in the modern Cretan population is 7.6% [29]
If that were also the frequency among the Minoans, we would expect to find one IVS-1 mutation among the 24 Minoans we sequenced, and we found none. (SAD FACE).
@TP. (rhetorical) Can you use HAPMAP to isolate this..” In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21]”?
It seems like the modern Creteans are dis-similar to mainland Greeks. They are more admixed. Modern Greeks carry the IVS-1 but Creteans carry also IVS-6, IVS-110 and IVS-116.
I really need to focus in learning to use HAPMAP.
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quote: Originally posted by lioness: circle E - H thinking it's in Africa not realizing in these hard to read maps that you actually circled the Levant, lol
posted
more acturately it's merely a circle xyyman drew around Crete, I don't see what relevance it has, explain it to me
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Sensation al claims?…..more feel good headliners to give Europeans that warm and fuzzy feeling that Europe belongs to them and they are somehow part of those great ancient civilization. Talk about the need to be pampered and psychosis. That is what a deficiency of melanin does.
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By George Stamatoyannopoulos et al, the Greek crew.
Introduction Since its inception in 1984 the use of ancient DNA in addressing biological questions has led to the genetic characterization of species and populations from all major biological lineages [1,2]. The discipline, molecular archaeology, did not however immediately flourish without debate. Its inauguration was led by a series of sensational claims, many of which were invalidated [3]. Despite its dubious beginning, the discipline now operates under strict
Conclusion: Our results do not allow us to draw any definite conclusions about the frequency of β thalassemias in the Minoans. ( Because we did not find any.)
On the average, 64% of the β thalassemias in the Greek population are due to mutations at IVS-1 [20].
In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21].
Presumably high frequencies of IVS-1 mutations were characteristic of the ancient Mediterranean and Anatolian populations.
The average frequency of heterozygous β thalassemia in the modern Cretan population is 7.6% [29]
If that were also the frequency among the Minoans, we would expect to find one IVS-1 mutation among the 24 Minoans we sequenced, and we found none. (SAD FACE).
@TP. (rhetorical) Can you use HAPMAP to isolate this..” In the modern Cretan population, four mutations at IVS-1, IVS-6, IVS-110, and IVS-116 account for 63% of all β thalassemia mutations [21]”?
It seems like the modern Creteans are dis-similar to mainland Greeks. They are more admixed. Modern Greeks carry the IVS-1 but Creteans carry also IVS-6, IVS-110 and IVS-116.
I really need to focus in learning to use HAPMAP.
HapMap's search system isn't very "flexible".
I don't think it's possible in HapMap, but try some others. They do make use of the HapMap data.,
posted
I know you are mathematically challenged. But also geographically challenged? The maps are NOT hard to read. I circled Libya, Egypt and Crete. Ahem. They are NOT in the Levant. I know you believe Egypt is in the Levant. Wake up call...both Egypt and Libya is in Africa.
9-0 Lioness...At this rate..you may fall in the idiot category.
You are missing the point buddy...Evans got it right. Crete is of North African origin. See the "exclusive" haplotype shared between ancient Crete and modern North Africans.
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: more acturately it's merely a circle xyyman drew around Crete, I don't see what relevance it has, explain it to me
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@TP. Thanks. I need to spend some time on this. I notice Africa has no Mediterranean coastline. (sic). God damn! these people make it really difficult.
Now I have to read to get at..what countries are "Africa" and what are "Mediterranean"
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posted
The entertainment is in the other thread started by Vwwvv
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: I know you are mathematically challenged. But also geographically challenged? The maps are NOT hard to read. I circled Libya, Egypt and Crete. Ahem. They are NOT in the Levant. I know you believe Egypt is in the Levant. Wake up call...both Egypt and Libya is in Africa.
9-0 Lioness...At this rate..you may fall in the idiot category.
You are missing the point buddy...Evans got it right. Crete is of North African origin. See the "exclusive" haplotype shared between ancient Crete and modern North Africans.
From Supplemental Figure S2
Α, haplotype 1 shared with 63 populations Ε, haplotype 16 shared with 6 populations; F, haplotype 17 shared with 4 populations; G, haplotype 18 shared with 13 populations: Η, haplotype 20 shared with 1 population
The fact is this article says ancient Minoans were genetically similar to present day people of Crete, it is something you will have to get over. Similarly Otzi man is most similar to contemporary Sardinians rather than North Africans
the shared lineages are projections eminating from the island of Crete. That is what these charts are showing, the center point of the Minoan linegaes Minoa, Crete. The darkest blue indicates this. As expected neighboring areas share affinity in diminishing frequency as you get further away from the center
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As for the fisherman, his skin color may be similar, but the concave facial profile of that fisherman is typically European, and has nothing to do with how Egyptians depicted themselves, whatsoever.
I already made my views known regarding the Ancient Med convention of using excessively dark colors in the absence of assimilation of black skinned groups. Either the man was painted using the Egyptian convention, or they tried to depict the idea of a suntanned person when they painted the figure, or they used the color because he was imagined to have had African ancestry.
Either way, his facial features are typical of Europeans, not Africans,
quote:Originally posted by Swenet: As for the fisherman, his skin color may be similar, but the concave facial profile of that fisherman is typically European, and has nothing to do with how Egyptians depicted themselves, whatsoever.
I already made my views known regarding the Ancient Med convention of using excessively dark colors in the absence of assimilation of black skinned groups. Either the man was painted using the Egyptian convention, or they tried to depict the idea of a suntanned person when they painted the figure, or they used the color because he was imagined to have had African ancestry.
Either way, his facial features are typical of Europeans, not Africans,
_________________Minoan fresco, fisherman
I can play your game,
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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posted
Here is one. Maybe some of the more astute posters can weigh in on this one. When I first read this, I misunderstood what I read. If Lioness had caught on I would have been 9-1, but since he did not. I am still 9-0.
Are Caucasoid from Sub-Saharan Africa?
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From Academia.edu – On the Garamantes of the Fezzan Libya Page 401 to 406
Quote:
of cribra orbitalia in 37.5 percent of the sample, while porotic hyperostosis was only found in the sub-adult portion of the population. Evidence of premortem trauma was observed indirectly as exostoses associated with some traumatic event in 19.44 percent of the sample. It should be mentioned that healed fractures were also traced on two females (mid and old adults, respectively). Two cases of trephination with evidence of healing were also found, one of those in an adult male skull dating to the Classic Garamantian period (Figs 7.2 and 7.5). Among the sub-adults, the only pathologies observed were caries, porotic hyperostosis and cribra orbitalia. However, the sub-adult sample size is too small for any meaningful percentages to be presented.
Finally, special mention should be made of the evidence of trephination found, which, together with the treatment of the major head wound of one of the individuals in the Royal Cemetery, indicates that the Garamantes were aware of and practiced invasive medical procedures
The North African populations used for the assessment of the Garamantian biological affinities were all approximately contemporary to the Garamantes. The only exception is the Sub-Saharan samples, which are Neolithic, thus, predating the Garamantian civilization, although no further specification of their date is available. A list of the populations used
From Figure 7.22, it can be seen that the Garamantes cluster most closely to the SubSaharan Africans and secondarily to the Roman Egyptians from Alexandria and the Nubians from Soleb. Populations from Algeria and Tunisia are somewhat more distant but still rather close to the Garamantes. The most distant groups appear to be the Sudanese Jebel Moya and Kerma, as well as those from Gizeh.
Finally, as far as the biological affinities of the Garamantes are concerned, they appear to cluster most closely to the Sub-Saharan Africans and the Roman Egyptians and secondarily to populations from A)geria and Tunisia. Althougb Nubians from Soleb seemed to be close to the Garamaotes on the cladogram, their statistical di fference as well as the di stance between the Garamantes and the other Sudanese groups was significant. Because of the relatively small size of the sample, more detailed
My takeaway from this article:
The Garamantes looked like pre-historical “Sub-Saharan Africans”. The Romans(Egyptians) also looked like pre-historical “Sub-Saharan Africans” Porotic hyperostosis keeps popping up in Africa, Crete and Greece. Why? Pre-historical Sub-Saharan Africans looking people were practicing brain surgery Charlton Heston, Elizabeth Taylor, Tony Curtis(?) needs o step aside. Wesley Snipes, Omar Epps and Gabrielle Union are a better representation of peoples of those times. “Anthony and Cleopatra, Ben Hur”. Are all those statues we see on TV of Romans fake? Jari? “Fear this”
Get my point SORa. Don’t believe everything you see on TV or even what you read. Many of us cannot read Hieroglyphics, Greek, Arabic, Persian etc. We rely on English translation or interpretation. And Frankly Europeans lie and falsify information to benefit them. How long have they done it? Always start with the actual physical examination of the people. The hard evidence, lastly, THEN go to the books. That said I respect what you and your peers post here based upon what you read.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Don’t believe me? Anyone has the picture of the “Captain of the blacks” from Crete.
The before and after shots?
Also the “Bull rider”
And “the three ladies”.
I am on the road now so I can them dig it out.
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by xyyman: Don’t believe me? Anyone has the picture of the “Captain of the blacks” from Crete.
The before and after shots?
Also the “Bull rider”
And “the three ladies”.
I am on the road now so I can them dig it out.
It is ironic, given his modern reputation as an out-and-out racist, that one of the most tendentious restorations of a Minoan fresco, carried out under his direction and partly to his bidding, actually introduced a pair of black African soldiers as major figures. Known by Evans as the "Captain of the Blacks" fresco, it was restored to show a Minoan warrior running ahead of two black comrades or subordinates. In fact the only evidence for the black soldiers is a handful of fragments of black paint, which need not have been from human figures at all. Knossos and the Prophets of Modernism by Cathy Gere, University of Chicago Press
Posts: 42919 | From: , | Registered: Jan 2010
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posted
Those look like Nordic migrants to me. Wink wink.
Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Read!!! Note. It says "Otherssss....clearly negroid"
Crete is also an extension of North Africa. SSA(dark) and Saharans(red). Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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enough of this...I don't get involved in picture wars..
-------------------- Without data you are just another person with an opinion - Deming Posts: 12143 | From: When you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable | Registered: Jun 2007
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Interesting Heidelberg Uni page. I copied it, if you don't mind.
quote:Originally posted by xyyman: @TP. Thanks. I need to spend some time on this. I notice Africa has no Mediterranean coastline. (sic). God damn! these people make it really difficult.
Now I have to read to get at..what countries are "Africa" and what are "Mediterranean"
Yeah, I know it's hilarious. And mysterious.
Posts: 22234 | From: האם אינכם כילדי הכרית אלי בני ישראל | Registered: Nov 2010
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