Which depictions do we have of ancient Egyptians in foreign art? Are Egyptians for example depicted in ancient Minoan art, or Mycenaean art. Especially Egyptians in traditional Egyptian clothing.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ There is actually a considerable number of artistic portrayals of Egyptians by foreigners, but unfortunately the internet shows only a small fraction of it. Asiatic depictions from the Levant and Mesopotamia are not as great as those from Europe and these examples are typically unpainted works or those in which the paint is lost.
As far as European works, perhaps the earliest examples do come from the Aegean namely Minoan. Unfortunately the overwhelming majority of Minoan frescoes are not shown in the internet. Oddly enough, most Minoan frescoes I've seen are reproductions in the waiting halls of the ride 'Poseidon's Fury' in Universal Studios theme park in Orlando Florida. I even asked the manager about it and he confirmed they were exact replicas. They are very extensive and detailed and was stunned that Universal would go this far in design. Many of them do depict what I believe to be Africans due to their darker complexions and different features from the Minoans themselves. Unfortunately this was many years ago and I didn't have a smart phone to take the photos.
In the internet I've only seen these two examples.
The so-called 'Captain of the Blacks'
and the lyre player
The first is a reproduction in terms of the head of the black man.
I don't know about the Mycenaeans and have yet to see any examples from them but definitely Classical Greeks had ample artwork depicting Egyptians as exotic melanchroi (black-skinned) peoples.
A favored example would be the contrast bi-cephaloi or double-headed vases with one head depicting a Greek and the other a foreigner, typically African.
A common assumption was that due to the features, such Africans were likely 'Aethiopians' or Sub-Saharans, but many Classical art scholars like Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton who is an Egyptologist specializing in the Greco-Roman period keenly notes that depictions of Egyptians show similar features.
Take for example the popular motif of Herakles and the Egyptian king Busiris which according to the myth Harakles killed.
Dr. Ashton has considerable collection in her museum as well as photos of other Greek and Roman depictions of Egyptians.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
The question is where Egyptians ever represented in their own traditional clothes, as Egyptians in the shape of trade partners, emissaries, foes or similar?
The pictures you show from Knossos and Pylos can not really be proven to be Egyptians, or even Africans, even if it is possible. Regarding the musician at Pylos I seen other Lyre players too depicted rather dark, so maybe they often used foreigners as musicians, or it is a convention. The depictions in Minoan and Mycenaean art are rather complicated since colors seem to represent gender, but also class. Also age has been suggested in some cases.
I have been to Pylos and at least at the time I visited the place there were no hints among the information that any of the paintings should have represented Egyptians.
Many times one can get a bit misleading impression if one see reconstructions. Here is the Captain of the blacks, first the reconstruction, then the actual pieces:
Suffice to say that even todays Cretans and other Greeks can vary so much in skin color that they can be mistaken for other peoples. I have one Greek friend who when he lived here he was often questioned if he was Middle Easterner, or mixed African. Another Greek friend looks like a North European and was often mistaken as a Swede.
The link to Dr Ashtons museum seems not to work.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Mosaic with a view of the Nile, 100 BC -AD 100. Fragment from the Antikensammlung Berlin.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Djehuti mentioned Busiris. Here is a scen with Heracles and Busiris
Heracles killing Busiris and his suitors, Attic red-figure hydria, ca. 480 BC, Staatliche Antikensammlungen, Munich (Inv. 2428)
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
. Inlays depicting human figures
Inlay depicting an Egyptian woman IAA: 2009-1294
Hazor (archaeological site located in northern Israel, largest site of the Biblical period)
Late Bronze Age, 1500-1200 BCE
Bone
H: 4.5–9; W: 2–4.5 cm
Israel Antiquities Authority Israel Museum , Jeruslaem
IAA: 2009-1302, 2009-1300, 2009-1299, 2009-1301, 2009-1298, 2009-1294, 2009-1296
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Djehuti can you stop trolling please, the topic is Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions and so far you have posted none
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Description Gypsum wall panel relief: Assyrian capture of fortress in Egypt. At the top Assyrians storm the fortress; one tries to set fire to the gate while others undermine walls. Prisoners marched out are recognisable as Nubian soldier of Taharka, wear a single upright feather on their heads; native Egyptians are represented by a group of civilian prisoners with two children on a donkey. Below is a river containing many fish and some crabs.
The figures with the donkey at the bottom in the details above photo, they call these bearded people "native Egyptians". Maybe but I don't see any text or way of proving it.
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
Hercules slaying busiris over a sacrificial altar
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
Vase of the Busiris Painter
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^^ scholars do not say these are Egyptians. The Egyptians are on the front side
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku:
Vase of the Busiris Painter
I was looking for those images!
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
The site of Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), near Mosul in what is today northern Iraq,
Nimrud Ivory Panels of Two Egyptian Kings
Two panels from a much larger composition, each showing a youth dressed in Egyptian royal costume grasping a tree formed by a lotus flower arising from a double volute. On the front of the lower right-hand tenon of the right ivory panel, there is an incised inscription in West Semitic script. Excavated by Sir Henry Layard; acquisition date 1848. Phoenician style. Neo-Assyrian Period, 9th to 8th centuries BCE. From the doorway between Rooms V and W of the North-West Palace at Nimrud (ancient Kalhu), Mesopotamia, modern-day Iraq. (The British Museum, London).
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness :^^^ scholars do not say these are Egyptians. The Egyptians are on the front side
Who are they then?
Do you have a source that they aren't Egyptians?
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
Greco-Roman painting of Priests of Isis worshipping
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku: [QB]
quote:Originally posted by the lioness :^^^ scholars do not say these are Egyptians. The Egyptians are on the front side
Who are they then?
Do you have a source that they aren't Egyptians?
You posted a picture of a vase with some figures on it
Why are you saying those specific figures are Egyptian?
Are we to assume that any picture posted in a thread is an Egyptian until somebody proves it's not?
You have the what is called "the burden of proof" , if not proof, at least some source saying those specific figures are supposed to be Egyptians
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Hey lioness
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lionman:
You posted a picture of a vase with some figures on it
Why are you saying those specific figures are Egyptian?
You're claiming that Busiris isn't a King of Egypt in the greek Mythos?
quote:You have the what is called "the burden of proof" , if not proof, at least some source saying those specific figures are supposed to be Egyptians
You're the one who claimed that they aren't Egyptians because "scholars" say so, Yet you haven't named one, Or shown a source that claims they aren't Egyptian
quote:The Egyptians are on the front side
This side?
Or this side?
The burden of proof is on YOU to prove your claim
I wonder why you're so convinced that they aren't Egyptian? Not caucasoid enough? Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: Djehuti can you stop trolling please, the topic is Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions and so far you have posted none
And pray tell, Snaky what makes you think all the images I posted are of non-Egyptians?? Including the vases of Herakles and Busiris?! LOL Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Including the vases of Herakles and Busiris?!
show us something with a caption for once, with a direct still working link to a page with same image that some particular image you posted is supposed to be the fictional king Busiris
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
^ Why are you lying? I described every picture in my initial post! The janus faced vases are of Herakle--the hero and Busiris--his foreign foe. Even if Busiris is fictional he was still Egyptian and the myth has some basis in truth because there really was a Busiris city in the Delta of Egypt that was ruled by real kings. As to whether a real Herakles came along and killed one of them is another issue but he was still Egyptian. As for the women faces, Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton said the black woman is Egyptian and nobody as disproven whether the blacks depicted by Minoans were not Egyptian considering their close proximity to the Egyptian Delta.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: [QB] ^ Why are you lying? I described every picture in my initial post!
show us any one of those images > with a live link directly the image and where there, they describe the image as Busiris
this is basic proper citation When I post an image, I put a written title on it or under it and then a live URL DIRECTLY below the image where it is also identified the same way
This way people can check what I say and get further information
That is posting 101
You often leave this out and just post image Then you spout off a lot a detail and purposely leave out these titles and links, because you don't want to be checked
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shebithu:
I wonder why you're so convinced that they aren't Egyptian?
Because don't resemble the figures on the front, one of whom is Busiris. Medjay seems more likely, perhaps Busiris' police
It seems with this uncertainty it is disingenuous to not post the front side of the vase depicting the well known legend, Herakles killing Busiris which is clear
Instead you post these figures on the back, that are not clearly identifiable
I might think it was more likely if they more closely resembled the figures on the front (or the opposite) They also stand in repetitive formation looking like police. Benjamin Isaac in his book published by Princeton University called 'The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity' that has an illustration of the front of the vase on the cover calls them Nubians (in the text)
_________________________________
Medjay - Wikipedia Medjay (also Medjai, Mazoi, Madjai, Mejay, Egyptian mḏꜣ.j, a nisba of mḏꜣ,) was a demonym used in various ways throughout ancient Egyptian history to refer initially to a nomadic group from Nubia and later as a generic term for desert-ranger police or mercenaries
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Lioness stop ignoring me
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lionman:
Because don't resemble the figures on the front, one of whom is Busiris. Medjay seems more likely, perhaps Busiris' police
Pure speculation on your behalf
A moment ago they weren't Egyptians at all since "So many scholars" argue this, Yet you still haven't been able to name ONE because you can't
quote:It seems with this uncertainty it is disingenuous to not post the front side of the vase depicting the well known legend, Herakles killing Busiris which is clear
You're acting as though I haven't posted the other side of the vase and I am triying to hide it to mislead people asif the other side is drastically different
Why have you not posted the other side of the vase ?
Why have you not addressed the other side of the vase? Ive posted it numerous times
I posted one side and you claimed "they aren't Egyptians, the Egyptians are on the other side"
So I posted the other side straight away, this being the third time now, and you don't even acknowledge it because it doesn't suit your narrative. But I'm trying to be disingenuous?
It seems like your the one trying to mislead people and now you're resorting to projecting
Then you ask for a source for the vase presuming that I must be mistaken or its going to be some gotcha moment
To then say that they "they must be Medjay"
Are you stating facts or giving your opinion? Why am I supposed to care about your opinions?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
About one of the eventual Busiris kantharoi, the Musei Vaticani´s site theorizes that the tale and theme is about Egypt, but the very black people on the vase are maybe inspired by more southern people
quote: Attic Kantharos of the Vatican Class (Class M) On this janiform kantharos, with two human heads, the head of Heracles and that of a black African are depicted symmetrically opposed. It has been hypothesised that the two subjects may constitute a reference to the episode of Heracles and Busiris, the mythical Egyptian sovereign who, to keep famine at bay, destined for sacrifice any foreigners who entered Egypt. Among these was Heracles who, returning from the gardens of the Hesperides, was captured and led to the sacrificial altar; he broke his shackles and killed the Pharaoh and his court. There remains the fact that, following contact with Pharaonic Egypt, Greek knowledge of the African world increased from the seventh century B.C. onwards, entering into contact with the Nilotic ethnic African interior. More than an exotic evocation, the confidence with the subject demonstrated by the Athenian ceramic painter could have been due to the real presence of black Africans, introduced as slaves in Athens itself or enrolled as mercenaries, as was the case in the armies of Xerxes around 480 B.C.
There is a book where different depictions of black people in antiquity are presented. Maybe time to get it and get some more flesh on the bones. When I studied classical history and archaeology at the university this aspect of Greek and Roman art was seldom discussed.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shebithu:
Shebithu I noticed you posted these images in reply to this thread called "Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions"
I'm not certain who they are, I can only guess. I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
What leads you to believe they are intended to depict Egyptians?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: From Roman time comes an idyllized view of the Nile ( detail of a larger mosaic )
Mosaic with a view of the Nile, 100 BC -AD 100. Fragment from the Antikensammlung Berlin.
This Mosaic is very interesting, the picture above is just a small part of a large mosaic, the so called Nile Mosaic which depict the life in and around the Nile from Egypt and further south, even up to lake Tana. It is filled with many rather fantastic creatures, and people of different complexions. These kind of exoticizing Nile motifs seem to have become rather popular in Roman art. Obviously the Nile and its surroundings were seen as quite exotic by many Romans.
The whole Nile Mosaic. Most of it is located in the Palazzo Barberini in Palestrina, Italy
If one study its details it is really a feast for the eye.
Larger view Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Hey lioness
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: The question is where Egyptians ever represented in their own traditional clothes, as Egyptians in the shape of trade partners, emissaries, foes or similar?
The pictures you show from Knossos and Pylos can not really be proven to be Egyptians, or even Africans, even if it is possible. Regarding the musician at Pylos I seen other Lyre players too depicted rather dark, so maybe they often used foreigners as musicians, or it is a convention. The depictions in Minoan and Mycenaean art are rather complicated since colors seem to represent gender, but also class. Also age has been suggested in some cases.
I have been to Pylos and at least at the time I visited the place there were no hints among the information that any of the paintings should have represented Egyptians.
Many times one can get a bit misleading impression if one see reconstructions. Here is the Captain of the blacks, first the reconstruction, then the actual pieces:
Suffice to say that even todays Cretans and other Greeks can vary so much in skin color that they can be mistaken for other peoples. I have one Greek friend who when he lived here he was often questioned if he was Middle Easterner, or mixed African. Another Greek friend looks like a North European and was often mistaken as a Swede.
The link to Dr Ashtons museum seems not to work.
We have been over the Busiris vase before on this forum and it is quite clear that it represents Hercules killing the mythical Egyptian king Busiris. So it is a depiction of Egyptians in Greek art.
As for the depiction of the black runners from Minoan Crete, there is no doubt that they would be Africans. And there are numerous lines of evidence for this. One is the mythology of the Trojan war, which includes the reference to Memnon as a King of Ethiopia participating in it. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Memnon
And another source of evidence is from the Nile valley where the tomb of Rekhmire shows Puntites listed as having similar loin cloths to the Cretans also depicted in the tomb.
Men from Punt in the tomb of Rekhmire:
quote: A myrrh tree being carried by two men, will be for an attempted planting. The Puntites also bring gold, elephant tusks, ebony, ostrich eggs and feathers, leopard skins, giraffe tails, collars besides some live animals: cheetah (see bs-38418), monkeys, hamadryas baboons, ibexes. The men have a dark skin tone ranging from red to black. They are dressed in a loincloth with a flap, which goes down between their legs, and has a colourful border.
As for the depiction of the black runners from Minoan Crete, there is no doubt that they would be Africans.
And another source of evidence is from the Nile valley where the tomb of Rekhmire shows Puntites
The thread is: Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions, not runners in Minoa or Puntites in Egyptian art although Djehuti started with the runners, I don't know why
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Lioness please
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: About one of the eventual Busiris kantharoi, the Musei Vaticani´s site theorizes that the tale and theme is about Egypt, but the very black people on the vase are maybe inspired by more southern people
quote: Attic Kantharos of the Vatican Class (Class M) On this janiform kantharos, with two human heads, the head of Heracles and that of a black African are depicted symmetrically opposed. It has been hypothesised that the two subjects may constitute a reference to the episode of Heracles and Busiris, the mythical Egyptian sovereign who, to keep famine at bay, destined for sacrifice any foreigners who entered Egypt. Among these was Heracles who, returning from the gardens of the Hesperides, was captured and led to the sacrificial altar; he broke his shackles and killed the Pharaoh and his court. There remains the fact that, following contact with Pharaonic Egypt, Greek knowledge of the African world increased from the seventh century B.C. onwards, entering into contact with the Nilotic ethnic African interior. More than an exotic evocation, the confidence with the subject demonstrated by the Athenian ceramic painter could have been due to the real presence of black Africans, introduced as slaves in Athens itself or enrolled as mercenaries, as was the case in the armies of Xerxes around 480 B.C.
Drinking cup (kantharos) in the form of heads of Herakles and an African man Attributed to Class M: The Vatican Class Culture: Greek Date: ca. 470 BC Place made: Greece Medium: Terracotta, red-figure technique San Antonio Museum of Art
__________________________________________
what is the description of the 2D figures depicted in the flared portions atop each of the heads?
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Regarding the so called Captain of the blacks
Two renderings where one can see the reconstructed parts and the original pieces.
There are only one really visible runner in the Captain of the blacks fresco. Then there are fragments of another mans thigh and back of his head. It is impossible to prove if they were Africans, Egyptians or just Minoans colored in dark because of artistic convention.
To draw any conclusion about Africans or Egyptians from those fragments is to make a hen out of a feather.
Or as they say in the article I cited
quote: In this post, I examine a fresco which has excited debate among archaeologists and Afrocentrics, and everyone in between: The Captain of the Blacks fresco. ---- There must have been black Africans at Knossos, just as there were probably Egyptians and Hellenes and Canaanites and Libyans and Babylonians, even though the physical evidence for them living in Crete is scant, indeed.
Better wait for a day when we find actual tombs of Egyptians or Africans on Crete (preferably with preserved DNA), or at least better pictorial evidence of Egyptians or other Africans.
We know from other lines of evidence that there were contacts between Egypt and the Aegeans, no one denies that, but we do not know how many Egyptians or Africans actually lived on Crete or in Mycenaean Greece
And the exact skin color of the ancient Cretans we do not really know. We know from their DNA that they were relatively similar to todays Cretans and also Sardinians. We can not trust only pictorial evidence with all of it´s symbolism.
And even if we trust it we can see that the pictures can be included in the color variation of even todays Cretans and Greeks. We do not have to draw a lot of fanciful conclusions about black Minoans or Africans.
And as I mentioned before, I have been to Greece and I seen people who look like the ancient pictures and I seen with my own eyes the variation of shades one can see in todays Greeks.
Better we post and discuss pictures that have a more certain connection to Egypt.
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Hey lioness
Posted by Elmaestro (Member # 22566) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Hey lioness
What are you doing? Why are you stalking another poster? please contribute to the thread or stop posting.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Hey lioness
Tazarah, are you in love with the Lioness? Jokes aside, maybe you better try to PM her.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
The Nile mosaic are really worth a detailed study. There are a lot of animals, some pure fantasy, some realistic, and there are also people from different regions of the Nile. Just a couple of examples
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
quote: Originally posted by the lionman:
I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
quote:What leads you to believe they are intended to depict Egyptians?
The fact that its listed in a museum as "Heracles fighting Busiris"
If you have a issue with it don't complain to me, Complain to the museum, email them
It also isnt out of the ordinary since the greeks equated Memmnon, who is described as a "Aethiop", with Amenhotep III
Why are you so convinced that they aren't Egyptians?
Why do you have 0 contention with this vase of Busiris?
No request for a source for this image or a need of validation for why they are or aren't Egyptian
I wonder why?
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
This is clearly a facsimile too btw
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
These colored parts are reconstructed
There are only one really visible runner in the Captain of the blacks fresco. Then there are fragments of another mans thigh and back of his head. It is impossible to prove if they were Africans, Egyptians or just Minoans colored in dark because of artistic convention.
The point is that most Minoan frescoes from this period are reconstructed. But this is the only one where jet black people are depicted. Also, you ignore the back of the head of the originals having kinky hair. Are you seriously claiming that all of this is simply made up by the European artists to put blacks in ancient Greece? Seriously? No Afrocentrics made these paintings and why would a European do this if it isn't supported by the evidence? Not to mention you ignore the art from the Nile Valley showing Puntites with similar loin cloths along with Minoans also with dark skin. All of which are from the same time period. Nobody here made these things and you just reject anything that goes against your ideology.
That just shows that you are desperate to remove any and all possibility of black Africans in ancient Greece or the idea that some ancient Cretans could have had dark skin. Crete is an island in the Mediterranean and not connected to the mainland. The fact that some of them may have been dark skinned in no way shape or form implies that most Greeks, such as those on the mainland were black or African. This is just one piece of evidence. You have the evidence of Minoans in the Nile Valley and the evidence of Nile Valley influence on early Greek art. Not to mention all the numerous references to Africans in ancient Greek mythology. All of these things are well established facts. You are just spouting opinions and complaining about facts you don't like.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: To draw any conclusion about Africans or Egyptians from those fragments is to make a hen out of a feather.
Or as they say in the article I cited
quote: In this post, I examine a fresco which has excited debate among archaeologists and Afrocentrics, and everyone in between: The Captain of the Blacks fresco. ---- There must have been black Africans at Knossos, just as there were probably Egyptians and Hellenes and Canaanites and Libyans and Babylonians, even though the physical evidence for them living in Crete is scant, indeed.
Better wait for a day when we find actual tombs of Egyptians or Africans on Crete (preferably with preserved DNA), or at least better pictorial evidence of Egyptians or other Africans.
We know from other lines of evidence that there were contacts between Egypt and the Aegeans, no one denies that, but we do not know how many Egyptians or Africans actually lived on Crete or in Mycenaean Greece
The evidence exists on the Vases depicting the myth of busiris. Are you saying that you don't accept this as evidence because they look African? How hilarious. So now we need to "keep looking" because they are too African looking and this offends you and your ideology.
Keep in mind that all of those vases don't depict them as Africans, but that does show that there were some showing this along with the clothing that is found in art from the Nile.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: And the exact skin color of the ancient Cretans we do not really know. We know from their DNA that they were relatively similar to todays Cretans and also Sardinians. We can not trust only pictorial evidence with all of it´s symbolism.
And even if we trust it we can see that the pictures can be included in the color variation of even todays Cretans and Greeks. We do not have to draw a lot of fanciful conclusions about black Minoans or Africans.
And as I mentioned before, I have been to Greece and I seen people who look like the ancient pictures and I seen with my own eyes the variation of shades one can see in todays Greeks.
Better we post and discuss pictures that have a more certain connection to Egypt.
And you keep repeating yourself as to why some of the ancient Minoans and Cretans could not have been dark skinned purely based on ideology. This is a you issue. There are numerous lines of evidence showing this as a very distinct likelihood but you just don't like it because it offends your ideas of 'purity' in Europe.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: The point is that most Minoan frescoes from this period are reconstructed. But this is the only one where jet black people are depicted. Also, you ignore the back of the head of the originals having kinky hair. Are you seriously claiming that all of this is simply made up by the European artists to put blacks in ancient Greece? Seriously? No Afrocentrics made these paintings and why would a European do this if it isn't supported by the evidence? Not to mention you ignore the art from the Nile Valley showing Puntites with similar loin cloths along with Minoans also with dark skin. All of which are from the same time period. Nobody here made these things and you just reject anything that goes against your ideology.
It is not ideology, it is common sense. Do you think that Minoans, Myceaeans and also Etruscans suddenly changed color? What made them do that? Mutations? Natural selection? Invasion? The problem is that those people are rather similar genetically speaking still today. Would they change color without genetic changes? When it comes to Minoans we can even see in their genetics that some had brown hair (one individual even had light eyes). And the peoples on Crete are still rather similar to the ancient ones (and relatively similar to Sardinians), and the modern Greeks have much in common with Mycaenens.
Regarding the painting, people see what they want to see. You are pre programmed by ideology to see black people where-ever you look, even in the tiniest fragment. You do not understand the role of artistic conventions and symbolism in ancient art. You just interpret everything like it was photos, just literally.
So according to you were Etruscans also black (or very dark skinned)? They also many times depicted very dark figures in their art (even if the women mostly were light skinned, but those you never count since you only see black).
quote:That just shows that you are desperate to remove any and all possibility of black Africans in ancient Greece or the idea that some ancient Cretans could have had dark skin. Crete is an island in the Mediterranean and not connected to the mainland. The fact that some of them may have been dark skinned in no way shape or form implies that most Greeks, such as those on the mainland were black or African. This is just one piece of evidence. You have the evidence of Minoans in the Nile Valley and the evidence of Nile Valley influence on early Greek art. Not to mention all the numerous references to Africans in ancient Greek mythology. All of these things are well established facts. You are just spouting opinions and complaining about facts you don't like.
I know there were some Black Africans in Greece, just as there were Minoans and later Greeks in Egypt, no one has denied that. Why do you think I deny that? Do you at all read what I write? But we do not know how many they were in Minoan or Myceaean times. And it does not mean that they had some kind of dominating presence there, or that all dark figures in Minoan art depict them, or some kind of black Greeks.
Once again we have genetics from both Crete and the mainland and still no one of these human remains are African.
quote: The evidence exists on the Vases depicting the myth of busiris. Are you saying that you don't accept this as evidence because they look African? How hilarious. So now we need to "keep looking" because they are too African looking and this offends you and your ideology.
The vases posted here are from a different time, they are not Minoan or Mycenaean. And the Busiris motif is also anchored in written sources which makes it easier to know what the vases depict. No one has denied those vases.
quote:Keep in mind that all of those vases don't depict them as Africans, but that does show that there were some showing this along with the clothing that is found in art from the Nile.
The vases are from a time where we have written documents and a lot of material showing contact between Greece and Egypt. Also we know more about later Greek mythology than we know about Minoans.
The Minoan and Mycaenean motifs posted here are mostly wall paintings not vases (even if I posted the warrior vase in another thread).
quote:And you keep repeating yourself as to why some of the ancient Minoans and Cretans could not have been dark skinned purely based on ideology. This is a you issue. There are numerous lines of evidence showing this as a very distinct likelihood but you just don't like it because it offends your ideas of 'purity' in Europe.
I must repeat myself since you seem unable to understand information. As you maybe have seen, I have said that even today there are dark skinned Cretans and Greeks, so there is no real proof they were more darkskinned in those days. If they were you have to explain the genetic changes that caused the perceived lightening.
Have you been in Greece? Have you seen that there are Greeks that look rather similar to the ancients?
To put too much faith in ancient art can be tricky. Let us say we did not know so much about the Ibo people in Nigeria. But then we found masks from them. Maybe some people would start to speculate if they were a white people since many of their masks are white. So, my point is ancient and traditional art are not photos.
Maybe we could return to the subject of the thread now. So far you have not shown any proof that ancient Minoans were darker than todays Cretans and you have not shown any Minoans or Mycenaeans that are undisputable Egyptian or African.
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
Tazarah and Shebitku, be careful asking lioness too many questions. You see she loves to scrutinize what others post but doesn't like getting scrutinized herself.
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx: About one of the eventual Busiris kantharoi, the Musei Vaticani´s site theorizes that the tale and theme is about Egypt, but the very black people on the vase are maybe inspired by more southern people
quote: Attic Kantharos of the Vatican Class (Class M) On this janiform kantharos, with two human heads, the head of Heracles and that of a black African are depicted symmetrically opposed. It has been hypothesised that the two subjects may constitute a reference to the episode of Heracles and Busiris, the mythical Egyptian sovereign who, to keep famine at bay, destined for sacrifice any foreigners who entered Egypt. Among these was Heracles who, returning from the gardens of the Hesperides, was captured and led to the sacrificial altar; he broke his shackles and killed the Pharaoh and his court. There remains the fact that, following contact with Pharaonic Egypt, Greek knowledge of the African world increased from the seventh century B.C. onwards, entering into contact with the Nilotic ethnic African interior. More than an exotic evocation, the confidence with the subject demonstrated by the Athenian ceramic painter could have been due to the real presence of black Africans, introduced as slaves in Athens itself or enrolled as mercenaries, as was the case in the armies of Xerxes around 480 B.C.
There is a book where different depictions of black people in antiquity are presented. Maybe time to get it and get some more flesh on the bones. When I studied classical history and archaeology at the university this aspect of Greek and Roman art was seldom discussed.
Unfortunately, all the Greek portrayals of Africans available in the internet are just a small fraction of what was found archaeologically. As for the theory that these were Africans from 'further south', I find that hard to believe in the case of the Herakles vs. Busiris motifs. Busiris was clearly an Egyptian king and it would make no sense to depict Herakles killing a Sub-Saharan.
Mind you, I have seen some Greek depictions of Africans with more 'northern' features i.e. less prognathous, smaller noses, etc. But as scholars like Dr. Ashton have pointed out, the Greeks were prone to using xeno-hyperbole that is exaggerating foreign ethnic features.
Then there is also the fact that people with such features existed even in the Delta.
What I also find disturbing is the presumption that such Africans with 'southern' features were slaves but from from the further south, when naturally most of the African slaves who entered Athens and other areas of the Greek world were North Africans from Libya if not Egypt.
I forgot to mention that this topic you posted Archaeopteryx was posted by Brandon before
Egyptian kids
Here are two good sources on the portrayal of Herakles vs. Busiris:
Herakles in Africa: Confronting the Other in Libya and Egypt Another issue that merits further discussion is the physical character of the Egyptians on the Busiris vases. The literature on the so-called race of the ancient Egyptians has a long and sordid history that cannot be addressed in full here, but suffice it to say that in the nineteenth century it became entangled with the race science of the day. Ancient Egypt was subjected to a systematic whitening as part of a larger effort to justify the enslavement of people of African descent by denying any association between civilization and black people (Bernasconi 2007, p.12).
Whether such concepts as race and racism even existed in the ancient Mediterranean remains a subject of debate (Isaac 2004, pp. 4-5; McCoskey 2012, pp. 47-49; Kennedy et al. xiii-xv; Jensen 2018, pp. 14-16) and racial categories such as black and white are modern social fabrications that would have held no meaning in antiquity (Dee 2004, pp.163-4; Smith 2018, pp.18-19).
It is clear, however, that ancient Greek vase-painters, even accounting for the distortions and conventions inherent to their medium, conveyed Egypt as place that was home to people who in modern terms would be considered black.
Herakles in Egypt: A Greek View of the Egyptians Nevertheless it is difficult to locate Egyptians in Hellenic iconography. Egyptians themselves had a very clear self-image and left innumerable records of their own appearance. But one searches almost in vain for recognizably pharaonic-looking figures in Greek art of the archaic and early classical periods, despite a fascination with exotica that peopled their vases with Persians, Scythians and other "barbarians." Representations of negroid blacks occur. But the Egyptians themselves distinguished between their own physical appearance and that of the black Nubians, or Sudanese. The Greeks, too, distinguished by name the "Ethiopians" (i.e.., Nubians) from the "Egyptians." But to what extent they distinguished visually between Nubian nationals, ethnic Nubians in the service of the Egyptian pharaoh, and ethnic Egyptians is by no means obvious. The only sure pictures of Egyptians are those representing a mythological event known to involve Egyptians. The most popular was the conflict between Herakles and Bousiris king of Egypt--a clash of Greek and the "barbarous" customs of Egypt...
As to racial types, in two cases the foreigners have Greek-style hair and beards (and clothes in contemporary Athenian style). Eight examples show features clearly negroid or "mulatto," i.e., a platyrrhine nose and sometimes a protruding forehead, but with caucasoid lips and chin. In only one case is this type bearded. The black type varies from rather schematic to a very observant and accurate portrayal. Five more examples show a face distinctly non-Greek by comparison with Herakles', yet not black in type, with a large aquiline nose. The hair is cut close, curly or woolly, in 6 cases; 5 are stubbly-looking as if shaved, 3 more completely bald. Almost all show clean-shaven chins or a mixture of shaven & bearded ones; where the heads are stubbly, the face is, too
As for physiognomy, Egyptians are interchangeably portrayed as blacks, "others" of a non-black stamp, or as Greeks. It seems not to matter, as long as the degree of foreignness which the artist has in mind is somehow communicated. Herodotos himself mentions only once, disinterestedly, in passing, that the people of the Nile were dark-skinned and woolly-haired -- and he admits that this is by no means unique to them. Whether darkness of complexion held any particular connotations for the Athenians is hard to tell; they admired a tanned look in their own men. On the other hand the snub nose and prominent forehead of many of these portrayals are reminiscent of satyrs. While the Greeks seem fascinated by the distinctive negroid facial features, which they sometimes portrayed with great care, race seems less important to them in defining a people than customs.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku:
quote: Originally posted by the lioness:
I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
Blog: Dissertation Spotlight: Racialized Commodities: Thinking about Trade, Mobility, and Race in the Archaic Mediterranean Christopher Parmenter September 27, 2021
Before accusing someone of lying you should check the source to make sure you're not being a fool
Above you have a link to the following >>
quote: Blog: Dissertation Spotlight: Racialized Commodities: Thinking about Trade, Mobility, and Race in the Archaic Mediterranean Christopher Parmenter September 27, 2021
A window onto the changes happening during the lifetime of Xenophanes can be seen in the name vase of the Busiris Painter. The vessel depicts Herakles massacring the court of the mythical Egyptian pharaoh Busiris. The hero, given red skin and black hair, thrashes Egyptian priests in white robes, portrayed alternately with tan skin and black hair or black skin and tan hair. (The exception appears to be a single priest with a red coif). On the back, the painter depicts a march of black-skinned, black-haired warriors in alternating white or red clothing. Nearly everyone, save Herakles, has short, curly hair; the warriors are given facial features that appear distinctly African. (As other scholars have noted, using historicized racial terms to describe an archaeological object raises interpretive issues). The painter alternated skin color, hair color, and costume to balance the figures in his composition, a popular technique in the polychrome styles of the sixth century. It seems clear that the painter was familiar with Egyptian images: Herakles takes the stance reserved for pharaohs striking Egypt’s enemies. Is this act of appropriation an homage to Egyptian styles or a derisive parody? Out of all these considerations, what does appear clear is that the painter rendered Egyptians identifiable on the level of the body. This was not the case in the Homeric poems.
It's peculiar how this author makes the above remarks on skin and features but makes no mention of how Heracles himself is depicted. He also says above "Nearly everyone, save Herakles, has short, curly hair" The author Christopher Parmenter is clearly confused, that is patently wrong
He also says "the warriors are given facial features that appear distinctly African. (As other scholars have noted,"
And you are using this link to argue me?
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku:
quote: Originally posted by the lioness:
I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
Show the quote from the book
Or are you intentionally lying?
perhaps it is you who is intentionally lying >>
Isaac, Benjamin. The Invention of Racism in Classical Antiquity.(2006) Princeton University Press. Fig.I. following page 251.
FIGURE I. Caerctan black-figure hydria. Late Archaic Greek, c. 510 B.C. Vienna Kunthistorisches Museum. ANSA IV 3576. Drawing: A. Furtwangler und K. Reichhold, Griechische \ilstmmllinei; Auswahl hervorragender Vasennbilder (Munchen, 1904), PI. 51.
"Busiris was a legendary king in the Delta who, according to a Greek tradition, habitually slaughtered foreigners entering his country and sacrificed them to Zeus, until he vainly tried to do this to Herac!es. The vase shows Heracles destroying Busiris and his priests. Various details refer to the customs and clothing of Egypt with remarkable precision. Heracles is raging near the altar, flinging two Egyptians around and trampling on two others. A group of black Nubians hastens to come to the aid of the king, shown on the back of the vase. They have the usual equipment of Egyptian guards. Busiris's henchmen are often depicted as black on such images. Some of the priests are black and Heracles himself is dark. Greek vases do not always make an effort to render skin color realistically,... Busiris himself identified by the uraeus, the royal symbol of Lower Egypt, has fallen in front of the altar. The hydria intentionally reminds of familiar Egyptian images of a huge pharaoh smiting his tiny foreign enemies. Thus it is a caricature of Egyptian formal art expressing the superiority of the ruler over foreigners, substituting instead the Greek hero who destroys the powerless Egyptians and ends their sacrilegious custom of sacrificing strangers."
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- another delicious meal for the lioness Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote: posted by Djehuti:
Unfortunately, all the Greek portrayals of Africans available in the internet are just a small fraction of what was found archaeologically. As for the theory that these were Africans from 'further south', I find that hard to believe in the case of the Herakles vs. Busiris motifs. Busiris was clearly an Egyptian king and it would make no sense to depict Herakles killing a Sub-Saharan.
Mind you, I have seen some Greek depictions of Africans with more 'northern' features i.e. less prognathous, smaller noses, etc. But as scholars like Dr. Ashton have pointed out, the Greeks were prone to using xeno-hyperbole that is exaggerating foreign ethnic features.
Yes the last thing you write has, as everyone is aware of, also been common in todays world (and still is). Exagerrated features can be both a way to show appreciation or the opposite. Some of the art from the 18th, 19th and early 20th centuries which depict black Africans seems to have borrowed stylistic traits from classical depictions of Africans.
quote: posted by Djehuti:
I forgot to mention that this topic you posted Archaeopteryx was posted by Brandon before
Thank you, I shall check out that thread too.
In the Roman Mosaic from Palestrina both more light skinned types (some may be Romans or Greeks, but perhaps also Egyptians) and other more dark skinned people are depicted. It is hard to tell if the artists themselves had ever been in Egypt or if they worked after hearsay.
Did you read this book? Seems interesting. I have only read some pages on the net once. Maybe I will borrow it from the library.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
A common assumption was that due to the features, such Africans were likely 'Aethiopians' or Sub-Saharans, but many Classical art scholars like Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton who is an Egyptologist specializing in the Greco-Roman period keenly notes that depictions of Egyptians show similar features.
Take for example the popular motif of Herakles and the Egyptian king Busiris which according to the myth Harakles killed.
^^ At the top of your post are showing a cup with a woman on one side and a jet black person with prominent African features. There are several other cups like this also
Do you have any evidence that this black person depicts some particular person?
At the top of the post is another double headed cup depicting of a woman and Heracles
^^ Do you have any quote from a scholar who explains why they theorize that this black person is a depiction of the fictional Egyptian king Busiris? I don't see any symbol or jewelry or anything that might lead one to theorize that this is Busiris
Also, of the many other depictions of Busiris is three any other one that resembles one of these black faces on the double cups ?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Doug M: most Minoan frescoes from this period are reconstructed. But this is the only one where jet black people are depicted. Also, you ignore the back of the head of the originals having kinky hair.
I wonder how someone determined estimated these fragments represented more than two figures
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Busiris was a legendary king in the Delta who, according to a Greek tradition, habitually slaughtered foreigners entering his country and sacrificed them to Zeus, until he vainly tried to do this to Herac!es. The vase shows Heracles destroying Busiris and his priests...They have the usual equipment of Egyptian guards...Some of the priests are black and Heracles himself is "dark".
Are you trolling?
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
Bust of Memnon
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: I wonder how someone determined estimated these fragments represented more than two figures
In this blog an artist who, among other things. blogs about ancient art discusses how some of the frescoes were restored with some additions.
quote:There must have been black Africans at Knossos, just as there were probably Egyptians and Hellenes and Canaanites and Libyans and Babylonians, even though the physical evidence for them living in Crete is scant, indeed. What we see at Knossos is more the modernist reinterpretation of one man than a reflection of the world the Minoans themselves experienced.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
^ she says as per number of people:
quote: There is evidence for the one black soldier in the surviving piece depicting the thigh and kilt edge, and in the uppermost piece showing a dark neck and back of the head, but the third man, the black man who is just a pair of legs and a kilt, is a complete invention.
I'm not sure "solider" is verified
Nevertheless, I don't know what this image is doing as the 2nd post in a thread on the depiction of Egyptians, I see no evidence to the effect of the figure (what's left of it) being an Egyptian. Part of various diversions
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Hey lioness please talk to me
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,: ^ she says as per number of people:
quote: There is evidence for the one black soldier in the surviving piece depicting the thigh and kilt edge, and in the uppermost piece showing a dark neck and back of the head, but the third man, the black man who is just a pair of legs and a kilt, is a complete invention.
I'm not sure "solider" is verified
Nevertheless, I don't know what this image is doing as the 2nd post in a thread on the depiction of Egyptians, I see no evidence to the effect of the figure (what's left of it) being an Egyptian. Part of various diversions
Yes to call a small piece of a thigh and a back of the head a soldier is a far stretch. Also to call the brown figure a soldier or Captain is a stretch, and to call any of them Egyptian or even African is an ever further reach.
I agree, better we try to post pictures of people we are more sure that they are from Egypt instead.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I'm not sure if this is supposed to depict literal dark and light skin. Interestingly out of view, Heracles is depicted dark brown on this item, neither jet black nor white
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
I'm not sure if this is supposed to depict literal dark and light skin.
More opinions...
quote:Some of the priests are black and Heracles himself is "dark"
Your own sources says otherwise describing the priests as "black" and Busiris as "dark" (bearing in mind Busiris is depicted in the exact same hue as his priests and soldiers)
Why are you so sure that these aren't Egyptians then since its not to be taken literal?
quote:Originally posted by the Shebitku:
This is clearly a facsimile too btw
Yet you have no problem with any of these images, who look no different from any contemporary greco-roman
quote:Originally posted by Archeopteryx:
^Except for the "warriors further up the Nile"
quote: Originally posted by Shebitku:
Why do you have 0 contention with this vase of Busiris?
quote: Originally posted by the lioness:
Before accusing someone of lying
You have no problem accusing me of being disingenuous though acting as if I was trying to hide the other side of the vase, with me having to post it 4 times for you to even acknowledge it
They are Egyptians which you're going to have to deal with. It is not my concern wether you like or don't like the way mythical characters are being depicted, as I have already said, email the museum and stop venting your frustrations to me
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Mosaic floor with Egyptianizing scene
Mosaic, made of stone and glass tesserae, found near Prima Porta, just north of Rome. ca. 130–150 CE Metropolitan Museum
Shebithu I noticed you posted these images in reply to this thread called "Ancient Egyptians in foreign depictions"
I'm not certain who they are, I can only guess. I mentioned Benjamin Isaac already, He's Professor of Ancient History Emeritus at Tel Aviv University who wrote a book with this vase on the cover. He thinks those are Nubians
What leads you to believe they are intended to depict Egyptians?
^^ Again, middle of page 1 I'm not certain who they are. You are sure they are Egyptians. There is no inscription so scholars can only speculate as to whether these are Egyptians, Medjay employees of Egyptians or somebody else. Their features are more like Heracles in this particular vase, so maybe they are his Greek buddies. There is something I just noticed about these figures that is more apparent on the facsimile illustration but is there in the illustration. The sticks these figures are carrying have a curved tip resembling a cane. That could be a clue
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Shebitku:
Why do you have 0 contention with this vase of Busiris?
No request for a source for this image or a need of validation for why they are or aren't Egyptian
I wonder why?
This is a scene with Heracles fighting Busiris I don't know what's on the back (if anything) These figures, except Heracles, all appear to have sidelocks We can see on the sides of this scene there is a vertical framing of some kind
Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
Lioness I thought we was cool
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
.
. Posted by Tazarah (Member # 23365) on :
lioness please write back
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness:
Can you please send a link to the museum this vase is housed in?
quote:Why are you saying those specific figures are Egyptian?
quote:Are we to assume that any picture posted in a thread is an Egyptian until somebody proves it's not?
I can't believe that they are Egyptians, because as you have stated their
quote:facial features that appear distinctly African
The vase must have been misslisted since they look Nigerian, Very Yoruboid
Maybe this is evidence for Frobenius's theory that the Greeks infact casted the Ife heads...
You may be onto something Lioness
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
The Busiris vase above is housed in the National Archaeological Museum in Athens
quote: The National Archaeological Museum of Athens is the largest archaeological museum in Greece and one of the most important museums in the world devoted to ancient Greek art. It was founded at the end of the 19th century to house and protect antiquities from all over Greece, thus displaying their historical, cultural and artistic value.
quote: The scene describes Herakles’ adventure in Egypt, where king Busiris was planning to sacrifice him to save his country from draught. Herakles having grabbed a priest by his foot attacks Busiris himself and his priests in front of the altar.
Pity I was not a member of ES at the time I visited the museum, then I could maybe taken some photos pertaining to this discussion.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
-------
Posted by Djehuti (Member # 6698) on :
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Lioness I thought we was cool
Tazarah and Shebitku, lioness is actually a snake. Play with snake long enough and it will bite you. That's why I prefer to expose its not so craftiness.
But as I've pointed out before, the number of Greek depictions of Egyptians in the web is very small compared to what actually exists. Even Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton and others admit that most of the material has not been made available to the internet. I wonder why? I hate to jump to the racist conspiracy theory but I don't know why they would keep such art hidden from the public. Even a small fraction of the Minoan frescoes of Knossos is shown in the web.
That reminds me, remember whenever Greek depictions of Egyptians with blatant 'southern' or 'negroid' features were posted and Antalas would make the bizarre claim that they were made by Greeks who had never seen Egyptians? LOL This made absolutely no sense considering that by the Classical period Egyptian traders and merchants were not uncommon in the Eastern Mediterranean including in Greek sea ports. Also, even if the artist had never seen an Egyptian in person why would he depict an Egyptian with such appearance unless he received painted or drawn portraits of Egyptians OR was told in detailed description of what to depict.
Old Kingdom (King Djoser)
New Kingdom
Here is a mosaic depicting two Egyptian men from the Byzanine Period.
Now I can't find the thread, but I do vividly recall Antalas post a response to the likes of "the artists who made it have never seen Egyptians".
ROTFLMAO
Egypt was part of the Byzantine a.k.a. Eastern Roman Empire.
There was a significant population of Greeks living in the Delta even greater than the time of the Ptolemaic period, yet Antalas expects us to believe no Greek artists even during that time have ever laid their eyes on indigenous Egyptians! Okay, make that make sense. Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
I guess this is Djehuti trying to get some sort of street cred for representing the fam But this could confuse newer viewers into thinking these are foreign depictions of Ancient Egyptians. Djehuti, get it together please
quote:Originally posted by Doug M:
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti: Seriously Doug, no offense but your reading comprehension seems to be limited to what you think as opposed to what is in the actual text.
Nah dude. I think you just are too full of yourself and don't want to listen as opposed to pretending to know everything.
Posted by BrandonP (Member # 3735) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Tazarah: Lioness I thought we was cool
Tazarah and Shebitku, lioness is actually a snake. Play with snake long enough and it will bite you. That's why I prefer to expose its not so craftiness.
But as I've pointed out before, the number of Greek depictions of Egyptians in the web is very small compared to what actually exists. Even Dr. Sally Ann-Ashton and others admit that most of the material has not been made available to the internet. I wonder why? I hate to jump to the racist conspiracy theory but I don't know why they would keep such art hidden from the public. Even a small fraction of the Minoan frescoes of Knossos is shown in the web.
That reminds me, remember whenever Greek depictions of Egyptians with blatant 'southern' or 'negroid' features were posted and Antalas would make the bizarre claim that they were made by Greeks who had never seen Egyptians? LOL This made absolutely no sense considering that by the Classical period Egyptian traders and merchants were not uncommon in the Eastern Mediterranean including in Greek sea ports. Also, even if the artist had never seen an Egyptian in person why would he depict an Egyptian with such appearance unless he received painted or drawn portraits of Egyptians OR was told in detailed description of what to depict.
To play devil's advocate, I've read people explain medieval European portrayals of Islamic soldiers as being predominantly dark-skinned Africans were artistic license meant to emphasize their foreignness relative to their European Christian opponents, meaning that these depictions shouldn't be taken as evidence that "Moors" or "Saracens" were actually all Black.
Of course, it's likely that Islamic North African armies employed enough Black soldiers to make an impression upon Europeans during the Crusades. However, it's almost certainly not the case that they formed the entirety of those armies. Saladin for example would have been of Kurdish extraction IIRC, and he probably had plenty of Arabs and other West Asian types in his army in addition to the Africans.
Someone could argue that classical Greek representations of contemporary Egyptians are doing the same "embellishing" trick by stereotyping them as having South Sudanic features in order to make them look more alien from a Greek standpoint. Sure, the convention wouldn't make sense if people with such an appearance didn't have a noteworthy presence in Egypt at the time (mind you, even a visible minority can be noteworthy), but it may not necessarily mean that all or even most Egyptians of that era looked that way, either. Now, DJ, I know you don't actually think Egyptians were generally of South Sudanic appearance, either, but someone might misconstrue your posts as making that argument here.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
A blog post about Egyptians (especially Busiris) in ancient Greek depictions and literature
Excerpt from the blog post:
quote: One of the most lasting negative characterizations of Egyptians as an uncivilized people comes in the form of Greek stories about king Bousiris (Busiris) and Egyptian human sacrifice. Beginning in the fifth century BCE, vase-paintings, mythological works, inquiries, geographical works, and now lost comedic plays refer to a circulating myth about an encounter with king Bousiris in Egypt during Herakles’ journey. The basic story that is visible on several fifth century BCE Attic vase paintings (such as the one found at Vulci to your right) is that, once in Bousiris’ domain in Egypt, Herakles is captured and led to be sacrificed on an altar because the Egyptians in Bousiris’ realm customarily engage in sacrificing foreigners. (Later the notion of a famine adds more urgency to this particular sacrifice). But Herakles escapes, killing Bousiris and others involved and, presumably putting an end to this terrible rite. On the vase here, the soon-to-be killed Egyptians are portrayed somewhat uniformly with Egyptian robes and bald heads in the manner of a Greek perception of Egyptian priests. Herakles, wearing his typical lion skin, attacks in front of the altar.
This statue of St. Maurice in Magdeburg Cathedral dates from around 1240 and was probably made by the anonymous sculptor of the well-known Magdeburg Rider. It is not entirely certain that St. Maurice was a real person, but according to the hagiography he was the commander of the Theban Legion in the late third century CE. The legion, which was raised in Roman Egypt, was made up of Christians at a time when Christianity had been legalized but was not yet the official faith of the empire. While stationed in Agaunum (today St. Maurice en Valais, Switzerland), they were martyred for refusing orders to persecute local Christians. About a century later St. Maurice’s remains were brought to Agaunum, later renamed St. Maurice in his honor, but he was not destined to remain a figure of local veneration.
A number of German rulers adopted Maurice as their patron saint, and so his image spread across the German lands. Most notably, the tenth-century Emperor Otto I named Maurice the patron saint of the empire and also protector of Magdeburg, which was the base of his missionary work to the east. In the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, the powerful Hohenstaufen dynasty cultivated their connections to Magdeburg because they found in Maurice a champion to symbolize their expansionist aims. In their case they hoped to unite the German lands with Norman lands in southern Italy and Sicily and thereby to expand the reach of Christianity vis-à-vis Islam.
It was in this context that St. Maurice became a black man where he had previously been depicted as light-skinned, first in two passages from a Regensburg chronicle (ca. 1160) that described him as the commander of a troop of “black moors” and then in this statue. It is not clear whether the statue was commissioned on Frederick’s orders, as Paul Kaplan suggests, or whether the Archbishop Albert II had commissioned the statue on his own initiative, as Gude Suckale-Redlefsen argues, but in any event the image of the black saint proved a powerful propaganda tool for the Hohenstaufen ruler. As had been true for his father Henry VI, Frederick II understood that depictions of the variety of subjects in his cosmopolitan empire were useful for buttressing his authority. By depicting this paragon of Christian strength as a black man, Frederick highlighted the reach of both his faith and his political power, a useful propaganda tool against unruly nobles and recalcitrant church officials.
The idea of using a black figure to evoke cosmopolitanism and Christian universalism was not particular to Maurice; beyond the introduction of black figures in heraldry it also inspired the tradition of the Three Kings and other black saints in other parts of the German lands.
The veneration of a noble Maurice remained the dominant one until the rise of the transatlantic slave trade from about the sixteenth century. Although the “traditional” image has persisted into the present, there was also a marked shift in favour of portraying Maurice in “primitive” garb. This depiction better suited a developing worldview that justified the brutalization and exploitation of black people.
Egypt and the Nile seems to have been a recurring theme in Roman art. Here is a detail of another mosaic with Nile motif
Nilotic mosaic depicting a scene on the banks of the river nile. Late 2nd century AD. Limestone. From Italy. National Archaeological Museum, Madrid, Spain.
The mosaic was discovered in Rome in the mid-seventeenth century and depicts a Nilotic scene. Nilotic landscapes on mosaics and paintings portrayed life on the Nile river in Egypt and were abundant in the Roman world.
Statue of Rameses 3 From Beit She'an(a town in modern Israel).
What's interesting is that it looks radically different from how he was depicted in Egypt.
Posted by Ibis (Member # 23674) on :
quote:Originally posted by BrandonP: To play devil's advocate, I've read people explain medieval European portrayals of Islamic soldiers as being predominantly dark-skinned Africans were artistic license meant to emphasize their foreignness relative to their European Christian opponents, meaning that these depictions shouldn't be taken as evidence that "Moors" or "Saracens" were actually all Black.
It seems that in the Arab world back then it was common knowledge that Tariq ibn Ziyad's army was entirely composed of black Africans, which is why I suspect that this explanation is being passed around to act as a subtle form of "whitewashing" Posted by Ibis (Member # 23674) on :
quote:Originally posted by the lioness,:
Another note worthy example is this one done by The Swing Painter.
Even though their facial features aren't as extreme, there are still some subtle differences in nose shape. The Kemite's noses aren't as aquiline as Hercules', some even look broad/rounded. It's also debatable whether or not these can be seen as authentic examples of how an Kemite would look like (even if we take into account phenotypic diversity) given how their unshaven beards fits in line with "Mediterranean" cultural norms while going against Kemetian ones.
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
you might want to make that image smaller, also that Tariq quote, if possible
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
quote:Originally posted by Ibis:
Seems to be an interesting book
quote:Corpus of Early Arabic Sources for West African History
by Nehemia Levtzion (editor) JFP Hopkins (Editor)
From the eighth century onwards, the Muslim townsfolk of North Africa were well aware that fifty stages away across the desert to the south lay a land inhabited by black people which was the source of gold, ivory and slaves. It was no mere rumor stemming from occasional journeys of special daring, as it had been in the time of Herodotus. For the Muslims, the black slaves were in their midst as laborers and soldiers, servants and concubines. And soon the passing caravans began to be swelled by black students and pilgrims, showing that the religion and civilization of Islam were spreading across the Sahara into the western and central Sudan.The main sources for the medieval history of West Africa are to be found in Arabic writings. … Here, in 372 pages of clear English translations, is the sum of what Islamic scholars wrote about West Africa between the ninth and the fifteenth centuries, together with the notes necessary to its evaluation and the detailed indexes and glossaries which facilitate comparative use … [T]he work of Levtzion and Hopkins … has been supremely well done.” ― Times Literary Supplement
quote:Originally posted by Ibis: Statue of Rameses 3 From Beit She'an(a town in modern Israel).
What's interesting is that it looks radically different from how he was depicted in Egypt.
Xeno-hyperbole?
Posted by the lioness, (Member # 17353) on :
quote:Originally posted by Djehuti:
quote:Originally posted by Ibis:
Statue of Rameses 3 From Beit She'an(a town in modern Israel). What's interesting is that it looks radically different from how he was depicted in Egypt.
Xeno-hyperbole?
when viewing this, close one of your eyes and put your hand in front of your eyes to block out the image on the right for a moment, just looking at the left and middle
Note similarities and differences Also the nose shape of the middle one is unknown The Israel one seems more prognathic
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Khafre, 4th dynasty
There are a wide variety of nose shapes in Egyptian art. Khafre is depicted in this particular statue more prognathic and with higher cheekbones than the Ramses III from Egypt above, to my eyes. So it's hard to predict nose shape if it's missing as with the famous Djoser sculpture. It could have had a flat nose or a nose like Khafre
____________________
wiki:
Beit She'an is believed to be one of the oldest cities in the region. It has played an important role in history due to its geographical location at the junction of the Jordan River Valley and the Jezreel Valley. Beth She'an's ancient tell contains remains beginning in the Chalcolithic period. When Canaan came under Imperial Egyptian rule in the Late Bronze Age, Beth She'an served as a major Egyptian administrative center ___________________________
Thus the Israel Ramses III statue is likely Inspired by an already existing Egyptian one authorized by it's Egyptian administration, maybe even the same two I am comparing here
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
Bust of Queen Tiye from Serabit El Khadim
Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
Laboury, a senior research associate at the Belgian National Foundation for Scientific Research (F.R.S.-FNRS) at the University of Liège, and Connor, a curator at the Museo Egizio in Turin, Italy.
"The rendering of these facial features on the piece from Hazor are characteristic of the 5th Dynasty [circa 2465-2323 B.C.], although it does not seem possible to determine with any certainty which king it depicts,"
____________________________
possibly Neferefre, 5th dynasty (found in Egypt) ____________________________________________
Also:
In 2013, a fragment of the sphinx of Menkaure was discovered at Tel Hazor at the entrance to the city palace.
excavators believe it is unlikely that King Menkaure sent the sphinx to Hazor, since there is no record of a relationship between Egypt and the southern Levant during his reign. The statue may have been brought to Hazor as plunder by the Hyksos, a dynasty of kings from Canaan who ruled Lower Egypt in the late 17th and early 16th centuries, or perhaps slightly later as a gift from a New Kingdom Egyptian ruler. Hazor, the once-powerful Canaanite city described in the Book of Joshua as “the head of all those kingdoms,” was destroyed in the 13th century.
Menkaure(found in Egypt)
Posted by Doug M (Member # 7650) on :
Pentecost Mosaic from San Marco in Venice Italy from somewhere around 1200 AD.
quote: As Catherine Leglu has recently argued, the curse of Ham shaped the racialization of his descendants in terms of physiognomy and skin color in Fra Paolino’s pictorial genealogies.50 Ham’s four sons were associated with five African nations: Chus with the Ethiopians, Mesarim with the Egyptians, Puth with the Troglodytes, and Canaan with the Afri and Phoenicians. The inclusion of the Troglodytes among Ham’s dark-skinned African descendants is significant, as this people was described among the “monstrous races” thought to reside in Ethiopia described by Pliny and in the medieval tradition of the Wonders of the East. What made them monstrous and susceptible to racialization, apart from their localization in Ethiopia, was a series of cultural attributes including dwelling in caves, lacking speech, and their penchant for eating snakes.51 In the Venetian manuscript of the Chronicle, the line of kings of Egypt begins at the bottom of fol. 1v. The first king, Festus, though depicted as a European portrait type, with flowing hair and beard, is distinguished by his darker gray skin. The Egyptians are depicted with similar dark gray skin in the Pentecost mosaic at San Marco (Fig. 9), dating from around 1200, as an example of the desired conversion and redemption of the Ham’s African descendants within a universalizing Christian Church.
In a synagoge in Huqoq, in Israel, stunning mosaics with scenes from the Bible have been found. One such scene depicts when Pharaohs soldiers drown in the Read Sea during the Exodus. The mosaic was made during the 5th century AD.
A fish swallows an Egyptian soldier in a mosaic scene depicting the splitting of the Red Sea from the Exodus story, from the fifth-century synagogue at Huqoq, in northern Israel. (Jim Haberman/University of North Carolina Chapel Hill)
There is one scene which probably depicts the story of the Tower of Babel, and some conflicts during the episode
This picture is explained in another article
quote: “The workman have different hairstyles, clothing, and skin colors, to represent the various peoples who participated in the tower’s construction.” She goes on to explain, “ A fight is shown breaking out between two of them after God confused their languages.”
Ethiopian’s head and female head, with a kalos inscription. Attic janiform red-figure aryballos, ca. 520–510 BC.
Africans and Ancient Greeks had long, rich history together often reflected in the depiction of Africa in Ancient Greek art. The first contact between Greeks and Africans was sometime during the Bronze Age. At this time, the Minoan culture on Crete flourished and their shipbuilding skills enabled them to travel to far-flung places such as Africa.
It was Homer (8th century BC) however who made the earliest mention in the Iliad and the Odyssey.
“Zeus went yesterday to Ocean to a feast with the blameless Ethiopians, and all the gods followed” Thetis says to Achilles. (Iliad 1.423-424)
It was thus that the great Ancient Greek poet established the idea of Africa as a magical, mystical place suitable even for the gods and in classical Greek art, it was a reputation that evidently prevailed for ages.
Ancient Greece and Homer’s Africa
Ancient Greek Vase depicting a fight between a Pygmy and a crane 430-420 B.C.
Unknown to many is the fact that the name Ethiopia actually derives from two Greek words: αἴθω, aíthō, ‘I burn’ + ὤψ, ṓps, ‘face. Translated today it means ‘red-brown’ as an adjective and ‘burnt-face’ as a noun. Yet the expression was colloquial rather than pejorative. In the age of Homer, it represented an indistinct term describing all the peoples of Africa, from the upper Nile region of Sudan to the Sahara desert. To the Ancient Greek poet himself, they were highly esteemed people worthy of hosting the mythical rulers of his homeland.
There is no time to sit. To the streams of Ocean to the land of the Ethiopians, where they offer a hecatomb to the gods, I go once again, so as to receive my share of the feast. (Goddess Iris speaks to the winds. Iliad, 23.205-207)
A map of the known world in the time of Herodotus, the Greek writer who is known as “The Father of History.”
This was the principle region Ancient Greek geographers observed, in particular the area then known as Nubia. Geographical knowledge increased nonetheless with narratives such as Periplus of the Erythraean Sea, a Greco-Roman work written in Koine Greek in the 1st century.
It was Herodotus (484–425 BC) in his Histories, who first made a map of the world. The father of history had traveled up the Nile to Egypt and then to ‘Aethiopia’ as he called it.
Herodotus may have provided Ancient Greeks with the lay of the land. Yet, it was Homer’s Iliad and Odyssey which gave them the true beauty of Africa.
"But Poseidon was visiting the far-off Ethiopians, the Ethiopians who are divided in half, the remotest of men, some of whom live where the Sun god sets, and some where he rises. There, Poseidon, receiving a hecatomb of bulls and rams, delighted in the feast." (Odyssey, 1.22-26)
The myth of Africa: Black figures in Classical Greek Art
King Memnon surrounded by two Ethiopians. Side A of an Attic black-figure amphora, ca. 510 BC. From Vulci.
The myth of Africa encouraged Ancient Greek to re-establish their connections in the 7th and 8th century B.C. after the collapse of the Minoan and Mycenaean civilizations in 1100 BC, which severed Greece’s ties with Africa.
They built settlements and trading centers along the Nile river. Renewed close contact influenced not only Ancient Greek art, but also its mythology. In their mythological tales, pygmies, for example, were those who lived farther south and fought mythic wars with cranes. Memnon was another giant of a mythological figure as the king of Ethiopia and son of Titus and Eos. In war, Ancient Greeks considered his skills as equal to Achilles’s and was the one who killed Nestor’s son Antiochus in the battle of Troy. At his death, Eos’s tears supposedly moved Zeus so much that he granted Memnon immortality.
Africans in Ancient Greek art is, in many ways, a tribute to this mutual history. Greeks considered Ethiopians as highly exotic and mirrored this in their portrayal of them in their sculpture, ceramic vases, masks and painting. They were also featured in tragic plays by the likes of Aeschylus, Sophocles, and Euripides.
This form of honoring Africans through their art grew significantly during the Hellenistic period between 323-31 B.C. Although Homer’s Ethiopia was no longer the central subject, Africans skills as athletes and entertainers were. Larger works such as their imagery on gold jewelry and bronze statues also became popular.
Africans did however often serve as slaves as well along with other Greek and non-Greek people. The debate about whether Greeks were prejudicial towards Africans continues in some domains, yet the Ancient Greeks depiction of Africans in both art and poetry would seem to dispute that claim since even the term was one made merely to acknowledge the difference in color rather than establish a racial hierarchy. Posted by Shebitku (Member # 23742) on :
Supposedly these are Egyptian priests from the Ptolemaic period:
This one from the Dumbarton Oaks museum is also Ptolemaic, and is claimed to represent either a priest or provincial governor. His hairstyle looks kinda Greek to me.
And here is another one from Ptolemaic Egypt.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
The story about Moses and the Exodus seems to have been a popular motif in art. Thus we find different episodes depicted at the synagogue at Dura Europos in todays Syria.
Here is a picture of Pharaohs daughter and other women finding and taking care of the infant Moses
Moses found in the river. Fresco from Dura Europos synagogue, third century AD Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
A statue probably depicting an Egyptian. The statue is from archaic time and found in Naukratis, a mostly Greek city in the Nile delta.
Posted by Archeopteryx (Member # 23193) on :
Hollow bone head dated 630 - 500 Bc from Naukratis. Depiction of an African, maybe an Egyptian?
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