In searching reports on halPulaaren I can't locate an online free and full version of the following:
Corbo, R M, Scacchi, R, Cossu, G, Brega, A, Scozzari, R Genetic studies on the Senegal population. II. Polymorphisms of the plasma proteins F13A, F13B, ORM1, AHSG, C6, C7, and APOC2 Human Biology, Oct 1994; 66(5):885-903. . .
On the subject header I add the below:
quote: Recent advances in human genetics have supplied researchers with powerful tools for the investigation of West African history. The problem orientations of these studies have ranged from explorations of disease factors to historically focused research on the genetic relations between African populations. One common factor in many of these studies is, however, relations between populations within West Africa and with populations in other parts of the Old World.
A number of these studies are relevant to considerations of ancient relations across the Sahara. Some West African populations have traditionally been considered ‘racially’ mixed, like the Fulbe. Genetic data indicates complex biological relationships between different Fulbe groups and other West Africans (Rossi et al. 1991, Allsopp et al. 1992, Corbo et al. 1994, Watson et al. 1997),
but these are hardly ‘racial’ in nature. There are similarities in specific genetic features between specific Fulbe populations (in Senegambia and Burkina Faso, for example) and North African and European populations – but at the same time other Fulbe groups resemble their African neighbours in these same features
(Modiano et al. 2001),
and these genetic similarities are not consistent across the Fulbe populations sampled. Moreover, these resemblances do not appear to follow phenotypic variability within Fulbe groups
(Cerny et al. 2006: 20).
Wolof and Serer populations, linguistically related to the Fulbe but considered sub-Saharan in biological affiliation, also display similarities to North African groups in mtDNA systems
(Cerny et al. 2004).
Scott MacEachern Where in Africa does Africa start? Race, genetics and African Studies across the Sahara
Posts: 8014 | From: the Tekrur in the Western Sahel | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by osirion: Mixed race Fulani?
So the Fulani who traded with the Taureg are somehow not suppose to have had genetic flow from them? And the Taureg didn't have genetic flow from Eurasians?
If we are going to call Fulani mixed race then we should also call Italians, Iberians and Greeks mixed race and not White.
Bravo Osirion. I'm sure by these standards Haratin are "mixed race" too, but then again as a lot of people like to say no such thing as race. : )
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by PrideandJust: Here's what the study says about the Fulani's ancestry:
"Although sampled in Nigeria, the very distinct Fulani are part of a nomadic pastoralist population that occupies a broad geographical range across Central and Western Africa. Analyses of microsatellite and insertion/deletion polymorphisms indicate that they share ancestry with Niger-Kordofanian, North African, and Central African Nilo-Saharan populations, as well as low levels of European and/or Middle Eastern ancestry."
"HMost of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total)."
Hassan et al (2008) tested 26 Fulani Y-Chromosomes and over 1/2 had Eurasian Caucasoid Y-DNA.
Tishkoff (2009)
"When two clusters are assumed in the STRUCTURE analysis (K = 2), individuals can primarily be assigned to African (orange) or non-African (blue) clusters"
Fulani also don't consider themselves Black. They are against mixing with Negroid populations around them, calling them "hyenas, apes, and asses" (Dupire 1962) and intermarriage is considered "eating the fruit of the bitter black plum tree" (Stenning 1959)
Some more dumb ****, The Fulani's are black Africans overwhelming African in their ancestry, stop trying to twist Tishkoff's study, and were is this exact study for the half Eurasian y chromosomes for Fulani's? And anyway if it is it is probably due to drift and the founder effect anyway, since Eurasian paternal ancestry is so much more prominent compared to Eurasian autosomal DNA.
You got to be delusional to think that Fulani's are anything but Africans
Posts: 89 | Registered: Nov 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Ceasar: [QUOTE]Originally posted by PrideandJust: [qb] Here's what the study says about the Fulani's ancestry:
"Although sampled in Nigeria, the very distinct Fulani are part of a nomadic pastoralist population that occupies a broad geographical range across Central and Western Africa. Analyses of microsatellite and insertion/deletion polymorphisms indicate that they share ancestry with Niger-Kordofanian, North African, and Central African Nilo-Saharan populations, as well as low levels of European and/or Middle Eastern ancestry."
"HMost of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total)."
Hassan et al (2008) tested 26 Fulani Y-Chromosomes and over 1/2 had Eurasian Caucasoid Y-DNA.
Fulani should have a lot of North African blood since they are they undoubtedly ancestors of many ancient North African peoples. They have a low level of European blood and Middlle Eastern blood(like Beja/Somalis), and a strong Central and West Asian genetic connection, i.e. they are a typical black African population. There are less Fulani with Eurasian paternal ancestry then AFrican AMericans.
" Wow - the Broomhilda blog forum must be movin' on up!" Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Haplogroup R originated in Africa. The Eurasians carry African genes because of the Kushite spread into Eurasia after 3000BC and resulting gene flow between African and Eurasian populations.
The archaeological evidence does not support a recent common ancestor for both groups.
The idea that the Fulani are mixed has no support at all. Eurasians carry African genes due to the Kushite expansion into Eurasia 5000 years ago. [/QB][/QUOTE]
Posts: 13012 | From: Chicago | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ceasar: [QUOTE]Originally posted by PrideandJust: [qb] Here's what the study says about the Fulani's ancestry:
"Although sampled in Nigeria, the very distinct Fulani are part of a nomadic pastoralist population that occupies a broad geographical range across Central and Western Africa. Analyses of microsatellite and insertion/deletion polymorphisms indicate that they share ancestry with Niger-Kordofanian, North African, and Central African Nilo-Saharan populations, as well as low levels of European and/or Middle Eastern ancestry."
"HMost of the haplotypes belong to haplogroups of West African origin, such as L1b, L3b, L3d, L2b, L2c, and L2d (79.6% in total), which are all well represented in each of the four geographically separated samples. The haplogroups of Western Eurasian origin, such as J1b, U5, H, and V, were also detected but in rather low frequencies (8.1% in total)."
Hassan et al (2008) tested 26 Fulani Y-Chromosomes and over 1/2 had Eurasian Caucasoid Y-DNA.
Fulani should have a lot of North African blood since they are they undoubtedly ancestors of many ancient North African peoples. They have a low level of European blood and Middlle Eastern blood(like Beja/Somalis), and a strong Central and West Asian genetic connection, i.e. they are a typical black African population. There are less Fulani with Eurasian paternal ancestry then AFrican AMericans.
" Wow - the Broomhilda blog forum must be movin' on up!"
Oops - I meant to say "a stong Western and Central AFRICAN connection" not " Asian connection". Hence they are typical black Africans.
Posts: 4226 | From: New Jersey, USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
From the Scheinfeldt study: [i] "Y-chromosome data of 22 African populations, including the Fulani from Burkina Faso and northern Cameroon, were analyzed by Cruciani et al. (2002). The main result of Cruciani's study is that different populations from northem Cameroon (Fali. Ouldeme, Daba, and some mixed samples) reveal traces of back-migration from Asia to Africa because of a high proportion of haplotype 117. However, the Fulani sample from northem Cameroon considered by Cruciani and colleagues shows a rather low frequency of this haplotype, and the Fulani, which have a high frequency of haplotype 43, are situated as outliers. Cruciani et al. (2002) also showed that the Fulani from Burkina Faso have reduced diversity, because only two Y-chromosome haplotypes were observed in their sample.
In the introduction we mentioned several hypotheses for the origin of the (nomadic) Fulani. One well-known hypothesis is that the Fulani come from the Nile valley (e.g., Tauxier 1937). Analysis of FST distances, however, shows no close relationship between the sampled Fulani and the analyzed Nilotic populations. Admixture analysis, however, does not exclude the possible parental role of the Nilotic populations because the admixture coefficient for these populations is high. It is necessary to state that the conclusiveness of this finding is rather low. Further geographic sampling, particularly from Niger and other parts of the Sudanic belt of Africa, is needed to acquire a deeper insight into the genetic structure of the nomadic people of the African Sahel."
-------------------- Note: I am not an "Egyptologist" as claimed by some still bitter, defeated, trolls creating fake profiles and posts elsewhere. Hapless losers, you still fail. My output of hard data debunking racist nonsense has actually INCREASED since you began.. Posts: 5935 | From: The Hammer | Registered: Aug 2008
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quote:Originally posted by zarahan: From the Scheinfeldt study:
"Y-chromosome data of 22 African populations, including the Fulani from Burkina Faso and northern Cameroon, were analyzed by Cruciani et al. (2002). The main result of Cruciani's study is that different populations from northem Cameroon (Fali. Ouldeme, Daba, and some mixed samples) reveal traces of back-migration from Asia to Africa because of a high proportion of haplotype 117. However, the Fulani sample from northem Cameroon considered by Cruciani and colleagues shows a rather low frequency of this haplotype, and the Fulani, which have a high frequency of haplotype 43, are situated as outliers. Cruciani et al. (2002) also showed that the Fulani from Burkina Faso have reduced diversity, because only two Y-chromosome haplotypes were observed in their sample.
In the introduction we mentioned several hypotheses for the origin of the (nomadic) Fulani. One well-known hypothesis is that the Fulani come from the Nile valley (e.g., Tauxier 1937). Analysis of FST distances, however, shows no close relationship between the sampled Fulani and the analyzed Nilotic populations. Admixture analysis, however, does not exclude the possible parental role of the Nilotic populations because the admixture coefficient for these populations is high. It is necessary to state that the conclusiveness of this finding is rather low. Further geographic sampling, particularly from Niger and other parts of the Sudanic belt of Africa, is needed to acquire a deeper insight into the genetic structure of the nomadic people of the African Sahel."
Why did you post this quote. Eventhough the authors say ' that the conclusiveness of this finding is rather low ', they are implying that there was admixture, and there is no conclusive evidence of the African origin of the Fulani.
This is another example of your inability to interpret research material. As I wrote earlier just because Europeans publish an article which appears to be African centered, you have to seriously analyze research to determine its value. That's why I wrote a response to the article making it clear that the Fulani were not from the Middle East. See:
In an upcoming article on hg R I explain in detail the demic diffussion of hg R from Africa to Eurasia.
Zarahan stop spaming this thread. Learn how to interpret research. Then you will understand what material really supports your position and what material does not.
posted
Mr. Winters, You do have a point here. Note too that there is very little discourse on the Dogon haplogroups according to the Tishkoff study.
Posts: 5492 | Registered: Nov 2004
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posted
Bumped for our newest troll, continuing the beat down that he was receiving in Wally's thread:
quote:Originally posted by Perahu:
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^What idiot looks at the lower K? K = 14 exposes most or nearly all of that red to be African. You are not understanding that these are merely clusters that are shared between Africans and Europeans. You are Eurocentric so you give Europeans primacy even through this is structure that likely goes back to the OOA exodus (which means these people are 60,000 years removed from you and you simply retain archaic structure).
The Fulani have little East African ancestry. This does not explain their position. They are West African. You should compare them to the Mandingo.
Their affinity with Europeans is primarily due to admixture from Caucasoid North Africans.
^If this were true, and ignoring the "Caucasoid" nonsense, they'd have more light blue from the Mozabite cluster but they are nearly completely yellow with bits of input from other African populations (mostly Mandinka).
Dude, seriously, you aren't very smart.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Admixed populations are able to create their own clusters. This does not mean they are pure, just look at the lower clusters, the Mozabite have their own cluster but are substantially mixed, so are the Fulani (mixture between indigenous West Africans and Caucasoid North Africans).
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
^See the post above you which exposes that to be a lie. Rehashing:
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: ^You posted that stupid graph before and still persist in presenting it despite its anthropological illiteracy. WTF is a paleo-African and how are the Fulani "mixed" if they plot closest to a relatively un-admixed [with Eurasian] Nilo-Saharan group? Simply slapping graphics on there that reads "mixed" and "Paleo-African" mean absolutely nothing and do not constitute proof. It constitutes fraud and propoganda through pre-labeling (circular reasoning). Africans are inherently diverse and it has nothing to do with Europeans, who have always been irrelevant.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Admixed populations are able to create their own clusters. This does not mean they are pure, just look at the lower clusters, the Mozabite have their own cluster but are substantially mixed, so are the Fulani (mixture between indigenous West Africans and Caucasoid North Africans).
Again, the Mozabite cluster is accompanied by other AACs, suggesting REAL admixture while the Fulani AAC yellow bar is nearly full with the other contributions being African ones. Therefore, your argument falls flat.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
You can not compare the Fulani to the Maasai at all.
As you can see the Maasai are an indigenous East African population, more specifically they are Nilo-Hamites. We all know the Out of Africa migration occurred on the Eastern part of the continent, so naturally East Africans tend to be shifted towards Eurasians.
However, the Fulani are WEST Africans. There was no OOA migration from the western part of the continent. The Fulani only have very negligible East African, they are predominantly WEST African.
Compared to purely Negroid populations from West Africa like the Yoruba, Hausa, or Mandingo the Fulani have SIGNIFICANT levels of Caucasoid admixture.
Just deal with it, silly Negrocentrist.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Again, the Mozabite cluster is accompanied by other AACs, suggesting REAL admixture while the Fulani AAC yellow bar is nearly full with the other contributions being African ones. Therefore, your argument falls flat.
Like the Fulani cluster, it eats up other admixture. The Mozabite are much more mixed than what is shown on the higher K, the lower K results shows their true admixture levels.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Perahu: You can not compare the Fulani to the Maasai at all.
As you can see the Maasai are an indigenous East African population, more specifically they are Nilo-Hamites. We all know the Out of Africa migration occurred on the Eastern part of the continent, so naturally East Africans tend to be shifted towards Eurasians.
However, the Fulani are WEST Africans. There was no OOA migration from the western part of the continent. The Fulani only have very negligible East African, they are predominantly WEST African.
Compared to purely Negroid populations from West Africa like the Yoruba, Hausa, or Mandingo the Fulani have SIGNIFICANT levels of Caucasoid admixture.
I've already addressed this. This is why you have people like Tishkoff and Hassan supposing a migration of Fulani from east to west or even archaeologists associating the Fulani with the ancient Saharans. In addition, Europeans my be shifted towards Fulani by chance due to Africa's immense diversity (minor instances of convergent evolution). They don't necessarily have to come from East Africa. All of your explanations are anthropologically naive and as demonstrated, the K = 14 analysis posted unequivocally ruins your argument.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: I've already addressed this. This is why you have people like Tishkoff and hand Hassan supposing a migration of Fulani from east to west or even archaeologists associating the Fulani with the ancient Saharans. In addition, Europeans my be shifted towards Fulani by chance due to Africa's immense diversity (minor instances of convergent evolution). They don't necessarily have to come from East Africa.
The Fulani homeland is somewhere near Senegal. They arrived from the WEST.
They are essentially a peripheral population, in between Caucasoids and Negroids.
-Caucasoid North Africans -Admixed Tuaregs -Admixed Fulanis -Pure Negroid West Africans
Fulanis vary a lot, so by no means are they all mixed, but many are.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
^Your trailer park anthropology will not see victory here.
West Africa was sparsely populated as recently as the Bronze age so you have no idea where they came from in Africa. Niger-Congo speakers in general may have came the vicinity of the Nile Valley and the new typology which places the homeland of E-P2 in East Africa around 22-24 kya supports that scenario.
As far as them being "admixed" with already "admixed" North African groups (Tuareg being most similar to the Beja btw), the K= 14 image I posted directly contradicts you. Interestingly, Algeria shows the highest marks for Fulani specific ancestry which may lend credence to former claims of proto-Fulani at Tassili n'Ajjer.
quote:Like the Fulani cluster, it eats up other admixture. The Mozabite are much more mixed than what is shown on the higher K, the lower K results shows their true admixture levels.
Lower K doesn't show admixture as well as higher K, and it in fact obscures it. You honestly have no idea how this structure works and therefore, have no idea what you're talking about.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
I am done with you Negrocentrists. I am not going to constantly reiterate myself.
The Fulani are racially impure, and you damn well know it. They are an intermediate Caucasoid-Negroid population, just effin deal with it. Good day sir!
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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Yes, leave now so that you may save yourself from further embarrassment. The proud Fulani of west Africa would be appalled and absolutely disgusted by the antics of this mouth-foaming racialist looking to incorporate them into his fictional pantheon. Trust that your 19th century race concepts have no bearing on these people. Surely the biggest mistake you made was thinking that BS was gonna fly here. You were given a rude awakening.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Credit you for putting the fiya pon Perahu...He runs because he knows he can't refute what was stated by you in this thread.
What also must be understood, is that the Tuareg have E1b1a at 63+% and should NOT be looked at as Mixed Africans Either. There closest people to them also is the Beja in East Africa which shows that Tuareg were originally from East Africa.
As for the Fula, there closest links is always to the Wolof, Serer, Songhai etc. They have Fine Features because they are adapted to a Dry Climate and NOT because of mixing with Eurasians. Also like I read in a Study, The Fula with mixture were NOT the ones with Narrow Features but the ones with Broad Features...so that negates the ideas about them.
Also Look at the Tutsis who are Bantus from Rwanda. They have Narrow Features, but show to be more West African then anything else. Read this from Jean Hiernaux who talks about the FACES of African and shows that the Narrow Features in Africans is NOT because of Mixture also we have the elongated Africans that he shows in his chart to be adapted to a Dry Climate:
Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series) 1975
Jean Hiernaux The People of Africa(Peoples of the World Series) 1975 The oldest remains of Homo sapiens sapiens found in East Africa were associated with an industry having similarities with the Capsian. It has been called Upper Kenyan Capsian, although its derivation from the North African Capsian is far from certain. At Gamble's Cave in Kenya, five human skeletons were associated with a late phase of the industry, Upper Kenya Capsian C, which contains pottery. A similar association is presumed for a skeleton found at Olduvai, which resembles those from Gamble's Cave. The date of Upper Kenya Capsian C is not precisely known (an earlier phase from Prospect Farm on Eburru Mountain close to Gamble's Cave has been dated to about 8000 BC); but the presence of pottery indicates a rather later date, perhaps around 400 BC. The skeletons are of very tall people. They had long, narrow heads, and relatively long, narrow faces. The nose was of medium width; and prognathism, when present, was restricted to the alveolar, or tooth-bearing, region...... all their features can be found in several living populations of East Africa, like the Tutsi of Rwanda and Burundi, who are very dark skinned and differ greatly from Europeans in a number of body proportions ............. From the foregoing, it is tempting to locate the area of differentiation of these people in the interior of East Africa. There is every reason to believe that they are ancestral to the living 'Elongated East Africans'. Neither of these populations, fossil and modern, should be considered to be closely related to the populations of Europe and western Asia. In sub-Saharan Africa, many anthropological characters show a wide range of population means or frequencies. In some of them, the whole world range is covered in the sub-continent. Here live the shortest and the tallest human populations, the one with the highest and the one with the lowest nose, the one with the thickest and the one with the thinnest lips in the world. In this area, the range of the average nose widths covers 92 per cent of the world range:
only a narrow range of extremely low means are absent from the African record. Means for head diameters cover about 80 per cent of the world range; 60 per cent is the corresponding value for a variable once cherished by physical anthropologists, the cephalic index, or ratio of the head width to head length expressed as a percentage.... Claims that Caucasoid peoples once lived in eastern Africa have been shown to be wrong,.. ,.. - JO Vogel, Precolonial Africa.
ALL this debunks everything that Perahu stands for which is all narrow faced Africans is because of mixture.
Just Gotta keep schooling them boys.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
All those ''elongated'' peoples according to Hiernaux are admixed, the only exceptions being the Dinka, Shilluk, Nuer, and Herero as these are pure Negroids.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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With all due respect, Please show the forum that All the elongated Africans are admixed including the Tutsi.
You think you know better then the people in these studies yet you were refuted by Sundjata in this very thread and you were refuted about the Fulani in the other thread.
Simple prove that the Fula, Tutsi, Beja are admixed. You also seem to forget that you were refuted on your ideas about the Ugandan Africans you claimed were mixed and you will be schooled again on any of the Tuareg, Fula, Tutsi etc in this thread.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
I already showed that the Beja and Fulani have Eurasian DNA.
Saharan ethnic groups and Horn Africans are also heavily Eurasian mixed. Tutsi and Maasai have Horn African admixture.
The only truly African evolved elongated peoples are the Dinka, Shilluk, Nuer, and Herero. These are indisputable pure breed Negroid Africans.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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I'm starting to realize that this guy is no more than a drone of Dienekes. This is why he can't think for himself or respond to the above, because he is programed to merely repeat what Dienekes and other race-junky dilettantes have already said. The guy is clearly a joke.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
^ Speaking of Dienekes, how come he's never come here for a debate? I know Racial Reality has gotten his ass kicked here a couple of times, but Dienekes doesn't seem to have the balls to argue with us.
quote:Again, the Mozabite cluster is accompanied by other AACs, suggesting REAL admixture while the Fulani AAC yellow bar is nearly full with the other contributions being African ones. Therefore, your argument falls flat..
^Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ Speaking of Dienekes, how come he's never come here for a debate? I know Racial Reality has gotten his ass kicked here a couple of times, but Dienekes doesn't seem to have the balls to argue with us.
Dienekes is busy doing very important independent research, at least he understands the algorithms behind genetic analyses unlike you people.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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quote:Originally posted by Truthcentric: ^ Speaking of Dienekes, how come he's never come here for a debate? I know Racial Reality has gotten his ass kicked here a couple of times, but Dienekes doesn't seem to have the balls to argue with us.
Because he thinks he's more than he is, and so does Perahu, his drone. In fact, that's it, Dienekes has idiots like Perahu to do it for him. He'd be embarrassed though if he knew how poorly they represent him.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.
Razib Khan who produced these plots is of the opinion that the Fulani are mixed.
quote:Originally posted by Razib: Observe below that there is a Fulani cluster. I think this is pretty much an artifact. At K = 7 the Fulani have a majority component which is modal in West Africa & Bantu speakers, and a minority component which is identical to the one modal in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The Mozabites reside in the far northern Sahara, and their modal component drops off as one goes east toward western Asia and the eastern Mediterranean. I suspect that what is showing up in ADMIXTURE is the ancient hybridization of the Fulani, and perhaps their demographic expansion from this core group.
quote:Originally posted by Razib: The Mandenka, in far western Africa, have elevated LD vis-a-vis hunter-gatherers, but not nearly so much as the groups with more “northern” admixture (e.g., the Fulani).
Man Sundjata this Perahu character is only fooling himself.
He claims that he showed that Beja and Fulani have eurasian genes, when Me and You gave him studies that refuted his arguement...Yet he NEVER even responded to the studies but posted a stupid chart that claimed Africans as paleo....What a Joke.
Hey Perahu I gave you studies that stated that Fulanis had less then 8.1% eurasian genes and that Fula had little caucasoid genes yet you ignored this. I also gave you a study that stated that the Fulbe had 100% e1b1a. You have not proven nothing but that you are a brainwashed lackey of a fool called dienekes. Show the Study that states that Tutsis and Afar are mixed...would love to read it.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
This is the speculation of a blogger based on something that isn't empirically evident (claiming that they partially diverged from a "core" Mozabite population). He is explaining the cluster that we are discussing, preferring it to be an "artifact" but this no where near carries the weight that you want it to. For instance, the Fulani are not special, again, look at the Massai at K = 2:
^Ask him to explain that and come back. He is basically just assuming like you, that the structure is not ancestral East African like that of the Massai, but this is an opinion in absence of cited literature to support it. For instance, Tishkoff associates the Fulani with Nilo-Saharan groups like the Massai so my view is very reasonable and finds support in professional literature.
Not to mention, experts who have reviewed the combined genetic literature on the Fulani agree with my view.
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.
Razib Khan who produced these plots is of the opinion that the Fulani are mixed.
quote:Originally posted by Razib: Observe below that there is a Fulani cluster. I think this is pretty much an artifact. At K = 7 the Fulani have a majority component which is modal in West Africa & Bantu speakers, and a minority component which is identical to the one modal in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The Mozabites reside in the far northern Sahara, and their modal component drops off as one goes east toward western Asia and the eastern Mediterranean. I suspect that what is showing up in ADMIXTURE is the ancient hybridization of the Fulani, and perhaps their demographic expansion from this core group.
quote:Originally posted by Razib: The Mandenka, in far western Africa, have elevated LD vis-a-vis hunter-gatherers, but not nearly so much as the groups with more “northern” admixture (e.g., the Fulani).
posted
^Address the above and stop spamming. I'm citing Razib's results, not Razib who is not an expert.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
The Fulani are not East African, their homeland is near Senegal. They migrated from Western West Africa to Central West Africa. They should be compared to West African populations (like the Mandingo), not Eastern ones. The position of Eastern groups is explained by the OOA event (plus in the case of Ethiopians, West Eurasian back-migrations).
Razib is a qualified geneticist and far more intelligent than you. His opinion is far more important than yours.
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
E-P2 is ultimately East African so Fulani are ultimately East African. A scenario could be that their ancestors stayed further north and for longer and thus, weren't affected as much by contact with aboriginal Central African groups. That they WERE north after the dispersal from East Africa is evident in the Tassili rock art alluded to.
As far as your assessment of anyone's intelligence with respect to "educational level", me worrying about your opinion on that is like getting my feelings hurt by a retarded toddler. If he is a geneticist then by all means, post his credentials and published work and cite where his opinion here is supported in the literature. When you do I'll be quiet. Excuse my skepticism but you are the same idiot who called Dienekes a "reliable source". Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Letter to the Editor: Commentary on the Fulani—History, Genetics, and Linguistics, an Adjunct to Hassan et al., 2008
AMERICAN JOURNAL OF PHYSICAL ANTHROPOLOGY(2010)
Keita et al.
In their recent work, Hassan et al. (2008) describe and analyze patterns of biallelic Y chromosome variation in diverse groups currently resident in the Republic of Sudan. They successfully historicize many of the populations in their study and do not interpret data in static racio-typological terms, something to be rejected (Keita and Kittles, 1997), and largely avoid the problems noted by MacEachern (2000, 2001) and Pluciennik (2001). Hassan et al. show the human biogeography of Sudan to have been impacted by Arabic speakers and other non- Africans who arrived primarily in the Islamic period from Asia via Egypt and interacted in various ways with local peoples (Cunnison, 1966; Haaland, 1969; Bayoumi et al., 1985; Bayoumi and Saha, 1987; Saha and El Seikh (sic), 1987; Holl, 2003). Their analysis documents the introgression of M89 lineages into certain populations of northeast Africa, where the indigenous haplogroups are A, B, and E, thus illustrating biological ‘‘levels of history’’— to borrow a concept from Braudel (1982)—which may be useful in thinking about diachronic changes that can occur in populations/regions (Keita, 2005b).
Genetic data have long been used in approaches to explore population history, and their value has generally been recognized at some level, but ‘‘at the same time there are potential problems with these techniques’’ (MacEachern, 2001, p 357). Some of these problems include the over extrapolation of often-limited genetic data, treating gene history as ethnic/population history, assuming deep and near essentialist historical continuity to groups/populations bearing particular names (whether emic or etic), and the incomplete incorporation of data, theory, and arguments from other disciplines such as history, ethnography, historical linguistics, history of ideas, and archaeology into the research design, analyses, and interpretations. Crude empiricism and reductionism have to be avoided in explaining and exploring the biocultural origins of ethnic groups/populations (MacEachern, 2001).
We are interested in exploring the suggestion, made by Hassan et al. (2008, p 321), that the Fulani, as a people— an ethnos, may have had a non-African origin. One of us (FJ) has worked extensively among the Fulani of Liberia, Cameroon, and Nigeria and has some field experience of their ideas of identity, religion, marital beliefs, and practices, which could have a bearing on genetics.
The Fulani number some 30 million live in 17 countries between the Atlantic to Red Sea coasts (Cerny et al., 2006) and are known by a variety of names: e.g., Peul, Fulbe, Fula, Fellata, and Pulaar [also noted in Murdock (1959), MacEachern (2000), and Cerny et al. (2006)]. They call themselves Fulbe, the plural of Pullo in Fulfulde, their language (Greenberg, 1949). Some are urbanites and others cattle pastoralists Stenning, 1957). McIntosh (1998) suggests that the Fulani identity ‘‘crystallized’’ (differentiated) in Futa Toro in the Senegambia region, among populations who migrated from the increasingly arid later Holocene Sahara, analogous to earlier migrations into the Nile Valley (Kuper and Kropelin, 2006). Archaeological evidence from other west African regions is interpreted as indicating either migration or influence from the later Holocene Sahara (e.g. Davies, 1967; Casey, 2005). Researchers in West African history and ethnography note the migration of Fulani from the Senegambia across the Sahel belt from west to east (e.g. Stenning, 1957; Willis, 1978; Hasan and Ogot, 1992; Vansina, 1992). The Fulani are mentioned in older historical works from West Africa [e.g., Sadi’s Tarikh as Sudan, see Hunwick (2003)] and are notable as 18th and 19th century Islamic religious reformers, scholars, and state builders (Vansina, 1992; Boyd, 1994; Hiskett, 1994). There are no documented ancient Fulani communities in Asia.
Hassan et al.’s (2008, p 321) suggestion of a non-African origin for the Fulani is a direct extrapolation based on the predominance (53.8%) of the R1*M173 lineage (an M89 lineage) in a single sample (n 5 26) from Sudan. However, analyses of other samples of Fulani give different results. Here, Y chromosome lineages are discussed in terms of their major markers, which will be understood to include downstream derivatives. For example, M35 will be used to mean both M35* and its derivatives M35/M81, M35/78, etc. In one sample from Guinea Bissau (n 5 59), the markers and frequencies are as follows: M2 275.6%, M35 213.6%, M33 26.8%, and 1.7% each of M75, M91, and M89-derived lineages (Rosa et al., 2007). In another study, based primarily on TaqI 49a, f variants, which can be ‘‘translated’’ into biallelic counterparts, a Fulani (called Peul) sample (n 5 54) from Burkina Faso has these frequencies: M2%–50%, M35 222.1% lineages (Lucotte et al., 2007). A small sample (n 5 20) of Fulbe from one area of the Cameroons has the M33 (E1*) lineage at a frequency of 52% (Scozzari et al., 1997, 1999). Hassan et al.’s sample also has a high percentage of M35 (34.6%). The mix of M2 and M35 lineages, both derivatives of P2 (or PN2) (see dendrogram in Hassan et al.), may reflect the sahara/sahel having served as an interaction zone of populations— a metapopulation which shuffled lineages—in the wetter periods of the early Holocene (Keita, 2005a; Kuper and Kropelin, 2006). The M2 lineage is sometimes almost characterized as being found only associated with the Niger Congo language phylum (Hassan et al., 321), of which Bantu is a subgroup. M2 lineages are found in populations languages from non-Bantu Niger Congo, Nilo-Saharan, and Afro-Asiatic phyla [see discussion in Keita (2005a)], and in high frequencies in West Africa including the Senegambia region Scozzari, 1997, 1999; Lucotte et al., 2007; Rosa et al., 2007).
Other genetic data are of interest. Recent mtDNA studies of the Fulani suggest their having broad representation of African haplotypes (specifically, the L megahaplogroup and U6), not found so far in large frequencies outside Africa other than in the various diasporic descendant groups (forced or voluntary) (e.g., Cerny, 2006; Ely et al., 2006, 2007; Rosa et al., 2004; Jackson nd1). Reviews of classical genetic markers also indicate that the Fulani of West Africa are not an anomalous group in that region (see e.g., Hiernaux, 1975) from a narrow biogeographical perspective.
Language affiliation has been frequently documented to parallel genetic patterns in West Africa (Jackson, 1986), although there is no obligatory causation or correlation of language and biology. Throughout their geographical range, the Fulani have retained their language Fulfulde, a member of the West Atlantic or Atlantic-Congo subgroup of the Niger-Congo phylum or quasi-stock (Greenberg, 1963; Nichols, 1997; Williamson and Blench, 2000). The closest relatives of Fulfulde are Serer and Wolof, which are restricted to the Senegambia region of West Africa (Greenberg, 1949; Williamson and Blench, 2000). The linguistic evidence is consistent with the known movements of Fulani from the Senegambia-Guinea region.
The diversity of Y chromosome haplotypes found in Fulani samples is highly variable and is likely explained by ancient and recent events. The more recent political activities of Fulani in the 18th and 19th centuries led to the Fulbeization of various peoples, a process which had not ended by the mid-20th century (Hendrixson, 1980; David and Voas, 1981; Schultz, 1984). The frequencies in Hassan et al.’s sample are consistent with a secondary migration from the Cameroons where the Fulani are known to have bioculturally assimilated various groups (Schultz, 1984), and where there is a notable frequency of R1*M173 in published samples of various ethnolinguistic groups, including some Fulbe (Scozzari, 1997; Cruciani et al., 2002). Genetic drift could also have had a role. Space does not permit further discussion of R1*M173, which has a higher frequency in central Africa than in the Near East (Flores et al., 2005), and which may have come to Africa in a back migration (Cruciani, 2002) during the Late Stone Age, before the emergence of current or ancient African ethnic/linguistic groups/ peoples. R1*M173 became part of an African biocultural evolutionary history, perhaps shaped in part in a later Saharan metapopulation, and apparently later dispersed (along with other lineages) into the ancestral populations of various regions. The evidence supports the Fulbe having emerged in Africa.
It would be of interest in the case of Hassan et al.’s sample to know its members recent family histories, to what degree it was a distinct breeding population or random sample, oral and written histories, paths of migration, clan affiliation, intermarriage patterns, number of loan words in its dialect of Fulfulde (if a community), mitochondrial DNA profile, its subsistence practices (and any changes), and profiles of other Fulani samples from Sudan. Together, these would help in the construction of a narrative of the biocultural history of Fulbe populations in the Sudan. In general, efforts at ethno-population history may benefit from considering when (1) genetic data should be subsumed to, and interpreted in terms of, chronologies or narratives or social structures established by ethnology, climatology, archaeology, history, and linguistics, (2) genetic evidence should be the primary data used to create the framework or narrative, or (3) both nongenetic and genetic information should be used equally in a process of ‘‘reciprocal illumination.’’ A temporal framework is crucial in such work. Ethnogenesis (the emergence of cultural identity) and biogenesis (the emergence of biological traits) are not causal nor necessarily co-terminous or correlated. Populations can change biology and/or culture over time.
-------------------- L Writes: Posts: 1502 | From: Dies Irae | Registered: Oct 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.
Razib Khan who produced these plots is of the opinion that the Fulani are mixed.
quote:Originally posted by Razib: Observe below that there is a Fulani cluster. I think this is pretty much an artifact. At K = 7 the Fulani have a majority component which is modal in West Africa & Bantu speakers, and a minority component which is identical to the one modal in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The Mozabites reside in the far northern Sahara, and their modal component drops off as one goes east toward western Asia and the eastern Mediterranean. I suspect that what is showing up in ADMIXTURE is the ancient hybridization of the Fulani, and perhaps their demographic expansion from this core group.
quote:Originally posted by Razib: The Mandenka, in far western Africa, have elevated LD vis-a-vis hunter-gatherers, but not nearly so much as the groups with more “northern” admixture (e.g., the Fulani).
posted
^You just said that. Leave then and accept defeat, we won't miss you.
Edit: LOL! This insecure idiot edited his post so that he could post the same sh1t again as some sort of last word. What an actor, hahaha! You lose, drone.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Recall, this idiot was trying to associate Haplogroup J in the Beja with the "European" structure to prove that it wasn't ancestral East African. Yet when you use the nearly 100% e1b1a in Fulani to make the same point he cries foul! What a pathetic hypocrite. Anyways, hopefully that's the end of that (even though I'm sure Mr. "Dienekes et al." will indeed be back)..
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: @King the stupid negrocentrist.
We are speaking of Autosomal DNA here.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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Bahahahahhahaa a Racist calling me a "negrocentrist" is this supposed to mean I am "Biased"? What Bias do I have? Please show the forum.
Also lets talk a little about Bias, Who is the person who is trying to claim that ALL Narrow Faced Africans as being mixed? Me or You? When you can answer that then maybe I will take you seriously.
Also still waiting on the studies that state that Tutsis and Afar are mixed Africans...Please post so the forum can read.
Sundjata
I will take your word over Razib anyday..at least you know how to use critical thinking in your assesement of studies and is not moved by "Wanting" the results to conform to your bias. Don't let Perahu get to you...a stooge of that fool dienkeise does not deserve anything but to be called a drone.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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Wow so we see the true colors of Perahu. When a study claims Eurasian Genes in Africans that have narrow faces, he is all for it. Yet when another study claims that ANOTHER narrow Faced African Group(Fulani) have 100% of an AFRICAN HapGroup he cries Foul. He shows his Bias again yet he calls me an "negrocentrist" What a Joke.
Keep the fire burning Sundjata.
Peace
Posts: 9651 | From: Reace and Love City. | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
It's also possible that J1-M267 has an African origin. And usually when you see so-called Eurasian haplogroups at high frequencies, it doesn't mean that hundreds of Eurasians came piling in, altering phenotype. As Perahu seems to believe
quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: KING.
Recall, this idiot was trying to associate Haplogroup J in the Beja with the "European" structure to prove that it wasn't ancestral East African. Yet when you use the nearly 100% e1b1a in Fulani to make the same point he cries foul! What a pathetic hypocrite. Anyways, hopefully that's the end of that (even though I'm sure Mr. "Dienekes et al." will indeed be back)..
quote:Originally posted by Perahu: @King the stupid negrocentrist.
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz': It's also possible that J1-M267 has an African origin. And usually when you see so-called Eurasian haplogroups at high frequencies, it doesn't mean that hundreds of Eurasians came piling in, altering phenotype. As Perahu seems to believe
Sickening Negrocentrism!
J1-M267 originated in the Near East. Just because so many 'Africans' ended up with this haplogroup as a result of Neolethic expansions from the Near East and later on Arabian expansions in classical times does not make it African, period!
Posts: 695 | From: وكان المصريون القدماء القوقازين | Registered: Jan 2011
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posted
Hold on everybody! I have an idea. Why don't we just ask the Fulani themselves where they are from and leave it at that? Show them a little respect.
Posts: 895 | Registered: Feb 2010
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quote:Originally posted by Sundjata: Actually, this point would be better made with the Algerian sample and it is also unnecessary since the main point is Fulani have little to no North African, Middle-eastern, or European ancestry according to K = 14.
Razib Khan who produced these plots is of the opinion that the Fulani are mixed.
quote:Originally posted by Razib: Observe below that there is a Fulani cluster. I think this is pretty much an artifact. At K = 7 the Fulani have a majority component which is modal in West Africa & Bantu speakers, and a minority component which is identical to the one modal in Mozabite Berbers from Algeria. The Mozabites reside in the far northern Sahara, and their modal component drops off as one goes east toward western Asia and the eastern Mediterranean. I suspect that what is showing up in ADMIXTURE is the ancient hybridization of the Fulani, and perhaps their demographic expansion from this core group.
quote:Originally posted by Razib: The Mandenka, in far western Africa, have elevated LD vis-a-vis hunter-gatherers, but not nearly so much as the groups with more “northern” admixture (e.g., the Fulani).
posted
^Why are there so many Euro quack cheer-leaders on here all of a sudden? Anyways, this is called appealing to authority as his primary source is the opinion of a blogger:
quote:An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form:
Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true.
^Even though we've posted opinions from experts on the matter and even Tishkoff who uses her own structure only found **potentially** "low to moderate levels of admixture". As a matter of fact, Razib and Peraclown claim that the Fulani cluster IS due to admixture. Let's hear Tishkoff out:
quote:"The Fulani and Cushitic (an eastern Afroasiatic subfamily) AACs [clusters], which likely reflect Saharan African and East African ancestry, respectively, are closest to the non-African AACs, consistent with an East African migration of modern humans out of Africa or a back-migration of non-Africans into Saharan and Eastern Africa."
----Tishkoff et al.
^And as shown in the Tishkoff (2000) citation she prefers the OOA explanation, calling simple "admixture models less likely". Also, like I'd stated with respect to "Saharan" ancestry, even the "low to moderate levels" (as opposed to Perahu's "high levels") are questionable given the Dogon and Dioula anomalies. So again, when Perahu can bring me something better than blogger speculation, we'll talk. For now, the experts have spoken.
quote:Originally posted by Calabooz: It's also possible that J1-M267 has an African origin. And usually when you see so-called Eurasian haplogroups at high frequencies, it doesn't mean that hundreds of Eurasians came piling in, altering phenotype. As Perahu seems to believe
We don't even need to go there. It's pretty clear though according to Hassan, Nebel, Keita, and others, that the J1 here is recent (within the past 1300 years) and has nothing with any Neolithic expansion. That nonsense was debunked a long time ago by archaeologists, yet Euro clowns hold on to that like they do the "race" concept because they know without it, their arguments would be reduced to typical Klan doctrine.
Posts: 4021 | From: Bay Area, CA | Registered: Mar 2007
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