By Yagmur Dursun

The status of women has become a focus of today’s society. Some people are trying to advance the cause of equality in the real world, while others are looking for equality in their religious books. For example, Muslims are claiming that Islam accords high status to women. Many Islamic scholars dashed off numerous articles about sexual equality in Islam. They are telling us that Islam is the only solution.

Many critics question the concept of equality in Islam.

As a Muslim woman with bitter experiences, I dare to question “Islamic equality”. I am neither a scholar nor a PhD. But I hope my personal experience will be interesting to readers.

All Muslim men are extremely proud of polygamy. They say that western men are unfaithful and they have many lovers. But unlike westerners, Muslim men take care of all their women. I say I’d rather be a lover than a wife in a polygamous marriage.

My whole life is about pleasing my husband. Since I am not the only wife, I also have to compete with my co-wife. How humiliating it is for a woman to compete with another woman in pleasing a man! If I were the only woman, I could say no and explain why I don’t want to please him. But now I can’t stop him or say no. If I do, my husband won’t even think about why I’m dissatisfied with his begaviour. He will say that he has another wife and I can rebel as much as I want but in the end it won’t change anything (and he is right). If I were a western woman, I could demand divorce. I can’t do it now because one’s husband having a second wife is not a reason for a divorce. If I were a western woman, I’d have the right to be angry at my husband for having a lover. But I can’t be angry now, because it’s morally acceptable for a Muslim to have many wives.

Most importantly, I have children. If I don’t compete with my co-wife and win, my children will be disadvantaged.

It’s so hard to see one’s husband kissing another woman. I am not an animal; I am a human being with feelings. Just like men I can be jealous. But who cares about me and my feelings?

I’ve recently received a book named “How to become a good Muslimah” as a gift. Being a good Muslimah is about pleasing your husband and forgetting about yourself – I have already understood it.

If I were a lover, I would be loved. As a Muslim woman, I am only an object – a sex object, an incubator and a maid to my husband. I am there to serve HIM and to please HIM.

Luckily enough, I am in the West. There is hope for me. I CAN rebel and I WILL rebel. I only pray for my poor sisters in Muslim countries.

Some western men batter their wives. They are punished. They are NOT encouraged by their religion to beat their wives. Muslims are.

Muslims say that it’s only permissible to beat your wife ‘gently’. Where is it said in the Koran that men should beat their wives gently? Frankly, I am sick of this discussion. How can a man discipline his wife even with a handkerchief? Are women stupid or children? Yes, we are stupid according to Islam. When my husband beats me, he always says that he wishes me well. If I am obedient, I will enter Heaven.

Has anyone been beaten with a toothbrush or a handkerchief? Well, believe me; it is as humiliating as being beaten with a rod (which is kept in our house in case someone really hits my husband’s raw nerve). You feel like an adolescent, who was disobedient and has to be punished. I feel so stupid and miserable. If I go to imam, he will say that it is permissible for a man to disciple gently his wife. If I was severely battered, I need witnesses. All these things are happening in the UK . Muslims are living in a parallel world; they are not interested in secular laws that are meant to protect women. Imagine what’s happening in Muslim countries?!

What about being told that you are deficient in intelligence and religion? My husband doesn’t pay much attention to what his wives say because we are ‘full of deficiencies’. We are meant to bring up children. That’s all. When I asked my husband if I could work, he laughed and replied that he sympathizes with employers who take on women. Nobody can succeed if he has female employees.

How did it happen? How could liberated women of Arabia accede to these humiliations and absurd demands of Mohammed? How could they believe him? It’s obvious to me. Remember, we women, are main dwellers of Hell. Unfortunately impressionable Arab women were deceived into believing in this lie and said goodbye to their rights.

If I don’t want to have sex, nobody cares to respect my wishes. If I try to resist his advances, I will just be forced to submit. Muslims say that it is natural for men to have a big appetite for multiple women. As far as I know, it is questionable but I’d like to bring up another subject. Religion is supposed to help people to achieve the highest standard of morality. With the help of religion, people are supposed to refuse to give in to their sinful nature. Islam, however, upholds the worst traits of human character. Muslim men may want to have sex with many women, but they are living in a civilized society. Can’t they overcome their beastly nature and show that they are civilized?

Christianity is pro monogamy. It will make you a better human being, if you are monogamous and fight against your sinful desires. If you are a Muslim, you get carte blanche to turn into an animal.

My experience with my husband proves that it’s better for me to submit to his whims and have sex with him whenever he chooses, even when I am not ready for it. After all, I don’t want to be beaten with our special rod.

Faith Freedom International, a movement of ex-Muslims striving to lead Muslims out of Islam and back to the fold of humanity through education and the exposition of the truth.

Islamic countries need secular laws to rule people, totally separated with religion.

Only this way will assure (at leaast, legally) the first steps to equality between genders, not totally reached even in western countries.

quote:

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Originally posted by Morgan:
Being a Muslim Woman: A Blessing or a Curse?
2005/03/26

By Yagmur Dursun

The status of women has become a focus of today’s society. Some people are trying to advance the cause of equality in the real world, while others are looking for equality in their religious books. For example, Muslims are claiming that Islam accords high status to women. Many Islamic scholars dashed off numerous articles about sexual equality in Islam. They are telling us that Islam is the only solution.

Many critics question the concept of equality in Islam.

As a Muslim woman with bitter experiences, I dare to question “Islamic equality”. I am neither a scholar nor a PhD. But I hope my personal experience will be interesting to readers.

All Muslim men are extremely proud of polygamy. They say that western men are unfaithful and they have many lovers. But unlike westerners, Muslim men take care of all their women. I say I’d rather be a lover than a wife in a polygamous marriage.

My whole life is about pleasing my husband. Since I am not the only wife, I also have to compete with my co-wife. How humiliating it is for a woman to compete with another woman in pleasing a man! If I were the only woman, I could say no and explain why I don’t want to please him. But now I can’t stop him or say no. If I do, my husband won’t even think about why I’m dissatisfied with his begaviour. He will say that he has another wife and I can rebel as much as I want but in the end it won’t change anything (and he is right). If I were a western woman, I could demand divorce. I can’t do it now because one’s husband having a second wife is not a reason for a divorce. If I were a western woman, I’d have the right to be angry at my husband for having a lover. But I can’t be angry now, because it’s morally acceptable for a Muslim to have many wives.

Most importantly, I have children. If I don’t compete with my co-wife and win, my children will be disadvantaged.

It’s so hard to see one’s husband kissing another woman. I am not an animal; I am a human being with feelings. Just like men I can be jealous. But who cares about me and my feelings?

I’ve recently received a book named “How to become a good Muslimah” as a gift. Being a good Muslimah is about pleasing your husband and forgetting about yourself – I have already understood it.

If I were a lover, I would be loved. As a Muslim woman, I am only an object – a sex object, an incubator and a maid to my husband. I am there to serve HIM and to please HIM.

Luckily enough, I am in the West. There is hope for me. I CAN rebel and I WILL rebel. I only pray for my poor sisters in Muslim countries.

Some western men batter their wives. They are punished. They are NOT encouraged by their religion to beat their wives. Muslims are.

Muslims say that it’s only permissible to beat your wife ‘gently’. Where is it said in the Koran that men should beat their wives gently? Frankly, I am sick of this discussion. How can a man discipline his wife even with a handkerchief? Are women stupid or children? Yes, we are stupid according to Islam. When my husband beats me, he always says that he wishes me well. If I am obedient, I will enter Heaven.

Has anyone been beaten with a toothbrush or a handkerchief? Well, believe me; it is as humiliating as being beaten with a rod (which is kept in our house in case someone really hits my husband’s raw nerve). You feel like an adolescent, who was disobedient and has to be punished. I feel so stupid and miserable. If I go to imam, he will say that it is permissible for a man to disciple gently his wife. If I was severely battered, I need witnesses. All these things are happening in the UK . Muslims are living in a parallel world; they are not interested in secular laws that are meant to protect women. Imagine what’s happening in Muslim countries?!

What about being told that you are deficient in intelligence and religion? My husband doesn’t pay much attention to what his wives say because we are ‘full of deficiencies’. We are meant to bring up children. That’s all. When I asked my husband if I could work, he laughed and replied that he sympathizes with employers who take on women. Nobody can succeed if he has female employees.

How did it happen? How could liberated women of Arabia accede to these humiliations and absurd demands of Mohammed? How could they believe him? It’s obvious to me. Remember, we women, are main dwellers of Hell. Unfortunately impressionable Arab women were deceived into believing in this lie and said goodbye to their rights.

If I don’t want to have sex, nobody cares to respect my wishes. If I try to resist his advances, I will just be forced to submit. Muslims say that it is natural for men to have a big appetite for multiple women. As far as I know, it is questionable but I’d like to bring up another subject. Religion is supposed to help people to achieve the highest standard of morality. With the help of religion, people are supposed to refuse to give in to their sinful nature. Islam, however, upholds the worst traits of human character. Muslim men may want to have sex with many women, but they are living in a civilized society. Can’t they overcome their beastly nature and show that they are civilized?

Christianity is pro monogamy. It will make you a better human being, if you are monogamous and fight against your sinful desires. If you are a Muslim, you get carte blanche to turn into an animal.

My experience with my husband proves that it’s better for me to submit to his whims and have sex with him whenever he chooses, even when I am not ready for it. After all, I don’t want to be beaten with our special rod.

If a Muslim woman wants to rebel, she is called disobedient and beaten. If she tries to question Islam, she is presented with quotes from the Quran or threatened with burning in Hell. So much for the equality in Islam!

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Morgan, I wonder, are you Christian?
I read this post of yours and it really made me think. So then I cross-referenced some items from the BIBLE and I came up with this:

1 Timothy 2:11-15
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
15 But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

1 Corinthians 14:34
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Interesting post to which I’ll give some quick responses:

11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission.
12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent.
The prophet’s wife Aishah is know have been one of the best narrator of the Prophet’s hadith, she was also skilled in the medicine of the time. Men used to come to her to ask for her advice about the religion and on legal aspects of it and she also used to teach both men and women, as did many of the other female Companions.

13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.
Although the Quran does say that Adam was created first, it does not say that that it was Eve who was deceived and then she deceived Adam. They were both equally deceived by Satan. Women are not therefore blamed for the fall of mankind from Paradise as in Christianity; in Islam it is related to a general human weakness.

15 But women[a] will be saved[b] through childbearing–if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
When a woman gives birth to a child, Islamically, this is considered to be her “jihad” (struggle in Allah’s Cause) equal to a man going to fight oppressors. And she is to be given honour for it. In fact a child should honour his mother three times more than his father for all the struggles she went through carrying him, giving birth to him, feeding him, and raising him.

1 Corinthians 14:34
34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.
There is a very famous story of a Muslim woman who stood up in the mosque and challenged something that Umar ibn Al-Khattab had said in a speech when he was the Caliph, and he admitted that she was right and he was wrong! There are also stores of women discussing matters with the Prophet in front of men and him allocating an additional separate day to teach them, along with them being allowed to attend classes with the men, so they could discuss more personal matter with him.

quote:

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Originally posted by PRchick:
Monogamy is certainly no guarantee that a woman won't be abused and feel the same way as this woman. There are tons of shelters for abused women in the U.S. to prove it, unfortunately.

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Who says that a Muslim woman should want equality any way? Human beings aren’t created equal, some are clever some are not, some are rich some are poor, some are fat some are thin, some are men some are women, etc. Life is not about having equality it’s about having equity and human beings being treated with equal respect for whoever they are and what ever role in life they fulfil. This thread could just as easily have been called: Being a Woman: A Blessing or a Curse, as there are women all over the world being abused and treated badly and their husbands will use whatever pretext they can do justify it; or Being Disabled… or Being Poor…

It's a real problem in my opinion to live under religious laws. A Faith can't control everyday life because faith cannot be proved. That's the origin of double standards that poison either that faith and doesn not let life go on. It stops a country and tire its people.

If muslim countries would be rules under laic laws, Islam would be much more respected, for muslims and for non muslims.

quote:

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Originally posted by IVIr:
Okay, so I might sound radical and appalling; but hey hasn't anybody noticed the world's already going in a radical and appalling direction? I am a man (I am also a feminist). That aside, I understand what you are saying (in a way). I know what it is like to believe or want to believe some religion who’s rules are humiliating and even harmful. I don’t know what religious freedom you have, I couldn’t tell from your post what country you live in, I only skimmed your post (and it strong a horrible and sorrowful nerve in me.) But I recommend if you have any freedom of religion even if it’s just to yourself begin to wonder why do you do it? Your God says do this and this else your damned…if your God is so insensitive can he be trusted to allow you into heaven? Worse would his heaven be equally as insensitive and humiliating? Does this God become something that unbelievable (or at least desirable to disbelieve). I believe almost anybody can have a wonderful life in almost any faith; but you must allow your conscience to filter that faith not the faith to filter your conscience. Faith should build you up not break you down. Some people are even better off without a faith.

[This message has been edited by IVIr (edited 28 March 2005).]

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This is not 100 years ago, this is 2005. You shouldn't allow him to treat you like that. It's absolutely disgusting. In this day and age it's fair enough to say women wear the trousers.

Go out with your mates down the pub at weekends, and YOU have 'multiple' lovers... If your husband beats you with a rod, then beat him with a BIGGER rod! If he wants sex with you, tell him to F*** OFF!

Freedom of speech, Gender Equality... surely these are simple Human Rights?

quote:

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Originally posted by SophieGirlie:
In this day and age it's fair enough to say women wear the trousers.

Go out with your mates down the pub at weekends, and YOU have 'multiple' lovers... If your husband beats you with a rod, then beat him with a BIGGER rod! If he wants sex with you, tell him to F*** OFF!

Freedom of speech, Gender Equality... surely these are simple Human Rights?

Are muslim's against Human Rights?

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Is this what Mrs. Pankhurst chained herself to the railings for so western women could act like this?! I bet she would be turning in her grave. Give me true islam and its respect for woman and men any day!

But, around my area Muslim males have a BIG reputation for treating there Wifes with no respect.

second: you can't blame the religion because someone misuse his right

let me tell you something
i am a muslim man from egypt and now i live in UK for studying i have the culture of arabic and muslim ppl and i see the life style of western ppl
i like something and dislike some
you must know something about your religion ( if you are muslim ) you must know your rights
what are you saying in your post means one thing that you DON'T know your righte as a wife and your Husband wife

1- the main rule in quran to get marry to more than one woman is to be fair ( extremly fair ) i mean in every thing even in the smile
god said in Suret el nissa ( women )
" And if you fear that you will not act justly towards the orphans, marry such women as seem pleasing to you, two, three, four; but if you fear that you will not be equitable, then only one, or what your right hands own; so it is likelier that you will not be partial ".(3)

if you read it and understand you will find that god gave the permission but tie it with very strong and very important condition is to be fair and said after no one will be able to do this mean ( for wise people ) get marry to only one

2- the muslim not allowed to get marry to more than one woman in the same house and not allowed to have sex with them all in the same time so he can't make an orgy or 3 some
so you will never see you husband kissing or having sex with his other wife

3- the man not allowed to have sex with his woman if she is not ready ( the prophet Mohamed said to the people the meaning of ( don't be like animal, just jump on your wife, but first cuddle her he is a human and have feelings )

4- as i said above you don't know your rights, if you are not happy you have the right to get divorce for any reason you want ( you don't love your husband - you are not satisfied sexually- and etc )and if your husband refuse you can goto the court and divorce him and he must pay you money for living till you die or till you get married to someone else( if you have children from him he must pay money for them even you got married.

5- do you know the wisdom behind the permission for married many women
i will ask you a question and i think you smart enough to understand the answer from the question
which case you prefer?
1- your husband have an affair
2- your husband have a another wife
i am not gonna talk about diseases which you could infected with and money waste which he should spend it with you OR your feelings when you know that your husband having an affair

6- not only muslim men who are involved in domestic violence againest there wives
here we go read

* Of the National Women's Study sample of 4,008 adult women, over one percent (1.2%) or an estimated 1,155,600 adult American women, were forcibly raped one or more times by their husbands. (National Center for Victims of Crime & Crime Victims Research and Treatment Center, 1992.)
* In 1995, twenty-six percent (26%) of all female murder victims were slain by their husbands or boyfriends. (Federal Bureau of Investigation, 1996.)
* An estimated six million women are assaulted by a male partner each year and of these, 1.8 million are severely assaulted. (Straus, 1993.)

i think not all of them are muslims
and by relision the man only allowed to hit his wife without leaveing any marks and never hit her face
this is the condition and it is very hard to do so this mean again DON'T

these percentages are old and now it is more UP and if any one of you live in UK you will find in TV and Radio the Adverts againest domestic voilence and abusing the partner

finally
i am not a member in this fourm but when a dear female friend send me the link of this post and how this makes her confused i dicided to be a member and reply

and my last word to every one not only in this fourm
please talk from your experiance or please ( with BIG please ) Keep you mouth shut couse you can't judge something from outside you have to go deep inside and have a good look then now you can say your word
NOT take someone else opinion and start to build opinions

PS: we muslims never say jesus or moses or mohamed
we should have some respect for the prophets
we say mohamed ( peace upon him )
jesus ( peace upon him )
moses ( peace upon him )

thank you

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
Assalamu alaykum AN@S!

Welcome to the ES and thanks for your comments, but if you had read the article at the beginning of the thread carefully and the comments that followed you would have realised that the article was taken from another website which has been set up by ex-Muslims who are trying to create doubts in Muslims’ minds about their religion. It cannot be denied that there are some Muslims who do abuse their wives and the religion, so this article could be true as it appears that this woman has written other similar articles, and it is very testing for any woman’s faith to be in an abusive relationship, particularly if the husband is abusing the rights given to him by the religion to subjugate the woman. However as you pointed out similar scenarios can also be found among non-Muslims too.

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Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar :

The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."

Volume 3, Book 34, Number 421:
Narrated 'Aisha:

Sad bin Abi Waqqas and 'Abu bin Zam'a quarreled over a boy. Sad said, "O Allah's Apostle! This boy is the son of my brother ('Utba bin Abi Waqqas) who took a promise from me that I would take him as he was his (illegal) son. Look at him and see whom he resembles." 'Abu bin Zam'a said, "O Allah's Apostle! This is my brother and was born on my father's bed from his slave-girl." Allah's Apostle cast a look at the boy and found definite resemblance to 'Utba and then said, "The boy is for you, O 'Abu bin Zam'a. The child goes to the owner of the bed and the adulterer gets nothing but the stones (despair, i.e. to be stoned to death). Then the Prophet said, "O Sauda bint Zama! Screen yourself from this boy." So, Sauda never saw him again.

Volume 3, Book 49, Number 860:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani:

A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." His opponent got up and said, "He is right. Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer working for this man, and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death; so, in lieu of that, I paid a ransom of one hundred sheep and a slave girl to save my son. Then I asked the learned scholars who said, "Your son has to be lashed one-hundred lashes and has to be exiled for one year." The Prophet said, "No doubt I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to go back to you, and your son will get a hundred lashes and one year exile." He then addressed somebody, "O Unais! go to the wife of this (man) and stone her to death" So, Unais went and stoned her to death.

Volume 3, Book 50, Number 885:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani:

A bedouin came to Allah's Apostle and said, "O Allah's apostle! I ask you by Allah to judge My case according to Allah's Laws." His opponent, who was more learned than he, said, "Yes, judge between us according to Allah's Laws, and allow me to speak." Allah's Apostle said, "Speak." He (i .e. the bedouin or the other man) said, "My son was working as a laborer for this (man) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that it was obligatory that my son should be stoned to death, so in lieu of that I ransomed my son by paying one hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the religious scholars about it, and they informed me that my son must be lashed one hundred lashes, and be exiled for one year, and the wife of this (man) must be stoned to death." Allah's Apostle said, "By Him in Whose Hands my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws. The slave-girl and the sheep are to be returned to you, your son is to receive a hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. You, Unais, go to the wife of this (man) and if she confesses her guilt, stone her to death." Unais went to that woman next morning and she confessed. Allah's Apostle ordered that she be stoned to death.

Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:

The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."

Volume 6, Book 60, Number 79:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin Umar:

The Jews brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from among them who had committed illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet said to them, "How do you usually punish the one amongst you who has committed illegal sexual intercourse?" They replied, "We blacken their faces with coal and beat them," He said, "Don't you find the order of Ar-Rajm (i.e. stoning to death) in the Torah?" They replied, "We do not find anything in it." 'Abdullah bin Salam (after hearing this conversation) said to them. "You have told a lie! Bring here the Torah and recite it if you are truthful." (So the Jews brought the Torah). And the religious teacher who was teaching it to them, put his hand over the Verse of Ar-Rajm and started reading what was written above and below the place hidden with his hand, but he did not read the Verse of Ar-Rajm. 'Abdullah bin Salam removed his (i.e. the teacher's) hand from the Verse of Ar-Rajm and said, "What is this?" So when the Jews saw that Verse, they said, "This is the Verse of Ar-Rajm." So the Prophet ordered the two adulterers to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the place where biers used to be placed near the Mosque. I saw her companion (i.e. the adulterer) bowing over her so as to protect her from the stones.

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 195:
Narrated Jabir:

A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to the Prophet while he was in the mosque and said, "I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face to the other side. The man turned towards the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and gave four witnesses against himself. On that the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" (He added), "Are you married?" The man said, 'Yes." On that the Prophet ordered him to be stoned to the death in the Musalla (a praying place). When the stones hit him with their sharp edges and he fled, but he was caught at Al-Harra and then killed

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 196:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

A man from Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque and called (the Prophet ) saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." On that the Prophet turned his face from him to the other side, whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and said, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse." The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side whereupon the man moved to the side towards which the Prophet had turned his face, and repeated his statement. The Prophet turned his face (from him) to the other side again. The man moved again (and repeated his statement) for the fourth time. So when the man had given witness four times against himself, the Prophet called him and said, "Are you insane?" He replied, "No." The Prophet then said (to his companions), "Go and stone him to death." The man was a married one. Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari said: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the Musalla ('Id praying place) in Medina. When the stones hit him with their sharp edges, he fled, but we caught him at Al-Harra and stoned him till he died.

Volume 7, Book 63, Number 230:
Narrated Al-Qasim bin Muhammad:

Ibn 'Abbas; said, "Once Lian was mentioned before the Prophet whereupon 'Asim bin Adi said something and went away. Then a man from his tribe came to him, complaining that he had found a man width his wife. 'Asim said, 'I have not been put to task except for my statement (about Lian).' 'Asim took the man to the Prophet and the man told him of the state in which he had found his wife. The man was pale, thin, and of lank hair, while the other man whom he claimed he had seen with his wife, was brown, fat and had much flesh on his calves. The Prophet invoked, saying, 'O Allah! Reveal the truth.' So that lady delivered a child resembling the man whom her husband had mentioned he had found her with. The Prophet then made them carry out Lian." Then a man from that gathering asked Ibn 'Abbas, "Was she the same lady regarding which the Prophet had said, 'If I were to stone to death someone without witness, I would have stoned this lady'?" Ibn 'Abbas said, "No, that was another lady who, though being a Muslim, used to arouse suspicion by her outright misbehavior. "

Volume 8, Book 78, Number 629:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid:

Two men had a dispute in the presence of Allah's Apostle. One of them said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The other who was wiser, said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Laws and allow me to speak. The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer serving this (person) and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, The people said that my son is to be stoned to death, but I ransomed him with one-hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the learned people, who informed me that my son should receive one hundred lashes and will be exiled for one year, and stoning will be the lot for the man's wife." Allah's Apostle said, "Indeed, by Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Laws: As for your sheep and slave girl, they are to be returned to you." Then he scourged his son one hundred lashes and exiled him for one year. Then Unais Al-Aslami was ordered to go to the wife of the second man, and if she confessed (the crime), then stone her to death. She did confess, so he stoned her to death.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 803:
Narrated Ash-Sha'bi:

from 'Ali when the latter stoned a lady to death on a Friday. 'Ali said, "I have stoned her according to the tradition of Allah's Apostle."

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 805:
Narrated Jabir bin Abdullah Al-Ansari:

A man from the tribe of Bani Aslam came to Allah's Apostle and Informed him that he had committed illegal sexual intercourse and bore witness four times against himself. Allah's Apostle ordered him to be stoned to death as he was a married Person.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 806:
Narrated Abu Huraira:

A man came to Allah's Apostle while he was in the mosque, and he called him, saying, "O Allah's Apostle! I have committed illegal sexual intercourse.'" The Prophet turned his face to the other side, but that man repeated his statement four times, and after he bore witness against himself four times, the Prophet called him, saying, "Are you mad?" The man said, "No." The Prophet said, "Are you married?" The man said, "Yes." Then the Prophet said, 'Take him away and stone him to death." Jabir bin 'Abdullah said: I was among the ones who participated in stoning him and we stoned him at the Musalla. When the stones troubled him, he fled, but we over took him at Al-Harra and stoned him to death.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 809:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. "What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?" They replied, "Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya." 'Abdullah bin Salam said, "O Allah's Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah." The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, "Lift up your hand." Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah's Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn 'Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 810:
Narrated Jabir:

A man from the tribe of Aslam came to the Prophet and confessed that he had committed an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet turned his face away from him till the man bore witness against himself four times. The Prophet said to him, "Are you mad?" He said "No." He said, "Are you married?" He said, "Yes." Then the Prophet ordered that he be stoned to death, and he was stoned to death at the Musalla. When the stones troubled him, he fled, but he was caught and was stoned till he died. The Prophet spoke well of him and offered his funeral prayer.

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 813:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

When Ma'iz bin Malik came to the Prophet (in order to confess), the Prophet said to him, "Probably you have only kissed (the lady), or winked, or looked at her?" He said, "No, O Allah's Apostle!" The Prophet said, using no euphemism, "Did you have sexual intercourse with her?" The narrator added: At that, (i.e. after his confession) the Prophet ordered that he be stoned (to death).

Volume 8, Book 82, Number 842:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani:

A man came to the Prophet and said, "I beseech you to judge us according to Allah's Laws." Then his opponent who was wiser than he, got up and said, "He has spoken the truth. So judge us according to Allah's Laws and please allow me (to speak), O Allah's Apostle." The Prophet said, "Speak." He said, "My son was a laborer for the family of this man and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife, and I gave one-hundred sheep and a slave as a ransom (for my son), but I asked the religious learned people (regarding this case), and they informed me that my son should be flogged one-hundred stripes, and be exiled for one year, and the wife of this man should be stoned (to death)."The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hand my soul is, I will Judge you (in this case) according to Allah's Laws. The one-hundred (sheep) and the slave shall be returned to you and your son shall be flogged one-hundred stripes and be exiled for one year. And O Unais! Go in the morning to the wife of this man and ask her, and if she confesses, stone her to death." She confessed and he stoned her to death.

Volume 9, Book 89, Number 303:
Narrated Abu Huraira and Zaid bin Khalid Al-Juhani:

A bedouin came and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Judge between us according to Allah's Book (Laws)." His opponent stood up and said, "He has said the truth, so judge between us according to Allah's Laws." The bedouin said, "My son was a laborer for this man and committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people said to me, 'Your son is to be stoned to death,' so I ransomed my son for one hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the religious learned men and they said to me, 'Your son has to receive one hundred lashes plus one year of exile.' " The Prophet said, "I shall judge between you according to Allah's Book (Laws)! As for the slave girl and the sheep, it shall be returned to you, and your son shall receive one-hundred lashes and be exiled for one year. O you, Unais!" The Prophet addressed some man, "Go in the morning to the wife of this man and stone her to death." So Unais went to her the next morning and stoned her to death.

Volume 9, Book 92, Number 432:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

The Jews brought a man and a woman who had committed illegal sexual intercourse, to the Prophet and the Prophet ordered them to be stoned to death, and they were stoned to death near the mosque where the biers used to be placed.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 633:
Narrated Ibn 'Umar:

A Jew and Jewess were brought to the Prophet on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked the Jews, "What do you (usually) do with them?" They said, "We blacken their faces and disgrace them." He said, "Bring here the Torah and recite it, if you are truthful." They (fetched it and) came and asked a one-eyed man to recite. He went on reciting till he reached a portion on which he put his hand. The Prophet said, "Lift up your hand!" He lifted his hand up and behold, there appeared the verse of Ar-Rajm (stoning of the adulterers to death). Then he said, "O Muhammad! They should be stoned to death but we conceal this Divine Law among ourselves." Then the Prophet ordered that the two sinners be stoned to death and, and they were stoned to death, and I saw the man protecting the woman from the stones. (See Hadith No. 809, Vol. 8)

from Sahih Muslim

Book 017, Number 4191:
'Ubada b. as-Samit reported: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Receive (teaching) from me, receive (teaching) from me. Allah has ordained a way for those (women). When an unmarried male commits adultery with an unmarried female (they should receive) one hundred lashes and banishment for one year. And in case of married male committing adultery with a married female, they shall receive one hundred lashes and be stoned to death.

Book 017, Number 4194:
'Abdullah b. 'Abbas reported that 'Umar b. Khattab sat on the pulpit of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Verily Allah sent Muhammad (may peace be upon him) with truth and He sent down the Book upon him, and the verse of stoning was included in what was sent down to him. We recited it, retained it in our memory and understood it. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) awarded the punishment of stoning to death (to the married adulterer and adulteress) and, after him, we also awarded the punishment of stoning, I am afraid that with the lapse of time, the people (may forget it) and may say: We do not find the punishment of stoning in the Book of Allah, and thus go astray by abandoning this duty prescribed by Allah. Stoning is a duty laid down in Allah's Book for married men and women who commit adultery when proof is established, or it there is pregnancy, or a confession.

Book 017, Number 4196:
Abu Huraira reported that a person from amongst the Muslims came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) while he was in the mosque. He called him saying: Allah's Messenger. I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away from him, He (again) came round facing him and said to him: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. He (the Holy Prophet) turned away until he did that four times, and as he testified four times against his own self, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) called him and said: Are you mad? He said: No. He (again) said: Are you married? He said: Yes. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Take him and stone him. Ibn Shihab (one of the narrators) said: One who had heard Jabir b. 'Abdullah saying this informed me thus: I was one of those who stoned him. We stoned him at the place of prayer (either that of 'Id or a funeral). When the stones hurt him, he ran away. We caught him in the Harra and stoned him (to death). This hadith has been narrated through another chain of transmitters.

Book 017, Number 4198:
Jabir b. Samura reported: As he was being brought to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) I saw Ma'iz b. Malik-a short-statured person with strong sinews, having no cloak around him. He bore witness against his own self four times that he had committed adultery, whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Perhaps (you kissed her or embraced her). He said: No. by God, one deviating (from the path of virtue) has committed adultery. He then got him stoned (to death), and then delivered the address: Behold, as we set out for Jihad in the cause of Allah, one of you lagged behind and shrieked like the bleating of a male goat, and gave a small quantity of milk. By Allah, in case I get hold of him, I shall certainly punish him.

Book 017, Number 4199:
Jabir b. Samura reported that there was brought to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) a short-statured person with thick uncombed hair, muscular body, having a mantle around him and he had committed adultery. He turned him away twice and then made pronouncement about him and he was stoned. Then Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: We set out for Jihad in the cause of Allah and one of you lagged behind and shrieked like the bleating of a male goat and one of then (goats' gave a small quantity of milk. In case Allah gives me power over one of them, I will punish him (in such a way that it may have a deterrent effect upon others). In another narration transmitted on the authority of Sa'id b Jubair (the words are), that He (the Holy Prophet) turned him away four times."

Book 017, Number 4201:
Ibn Abbas reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said to Ma'iz b. Malik: Is it true what has reached me about you? He said: What has reached you about me? He said: It has reached me that you have committed (adultery) with the slave-girl of so and so? He said: Yes. He (the narrator) said: He testified four times. He (the Holy Prophet) then made pronouncement about him and he was stoned (to death).

Book 017, Number 4202:
Abu Sa'id reported that a person belonging to the clan of Aslam, who was called Ma, iz b. Malik, came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: I have committed immorality (adultery), so inflict punishment upon me. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) turned him away again and again. He then asked his people (about the state of his mind). They said: We do not know of any ailment of his except that he has committed something about which he thinks that he would not be able to relieve himself of its burden but with the Hadd being imposed upon him. He (Ma'iz) came back to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and he commanded us to stone him. We took him to the Baqi' al-Gharqad (the graveyard of Medina). We neither tied him nor dug any ditch for him. We attacked him with bones, with clods and pebbles. He ran away and we ran after him until he came upon the ston ground (al-Harra) and stopped there and we stoned him with heavy stones of the Harra until he became motionless (lie died). He (the Holy Prophet) then addressed (us) in the evening saying Whenever we set forth on an expedition in the cause of Allah, some one of those connected with us shrieked (under the pressure of sexual lust) as the bleating of a male goat. It is essential that if a person having committed such a deed is brought to me, I should punish him. He neither begged forgiveness for him nor cursed him.

Book 017, Number 4205:
Sulaiman b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma, iz b. Malik came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said to him: Messenger of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: Woe be upon you, go back, ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, then came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. whereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Woe be upon you, go back and ask forgiveness of Allah and turn to Him in repentance. He (the narrator) said that he went back not far, when he came and said: Allah's Messenger, purify me. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said as he had said before. When it was the fourth time, Allah's Messenger (may, peace be upon him) said: From what am I to purify you? He said: From adultery, Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) asked if he had been mad. He was informed that he was not mad. He said: Has he drunk wine? A person stood up and smelt his breath but noticed no smell of wine. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Have you committed adultery? He said: Yes. He made pronouncement about him and he was stoned to death. The people had been (divided) into two groups about him (Ma'iz). One of them said: He has been undone for his sins had encompassed him, whereas another said: There is no repentance more excellent than the repentance of Ma'iz, for he came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and placing his hand in his (in the Holy Prophet's) hand said: Kill me with stones. (This controversy about Ma'iz) remained for two or three days. Then came Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) to them (his Companions) as they were sitting. He greeted them with salutation and then sat down and said: Ask forgiveness for Ma'iz b. Malik. They said: May Allah forgive Ma'iz b. Malik. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: He (Ma'iz) has made such a repentance that if that were to be divided among a people, it would have been enough for all of them. He (the narrator) said: Then a woman of Ghamid, a branch of Azd, came to him and said: Messenger of of Allah, purify me, whereupon he said: Woe be upon you; go back and beg forgiveness from Allah and turn to Him in repentance. She said: I find that you intend to send me back as you sent back Ma'iz. b. Malik. He (the Holy, Prophet) said: What has happened to you? She said that she had become pregnant as a result of fornication. He (the Holy Prophet) said: Is it you (who has done that)? She said: Yes. He (the Holy Prophet) said to her: (You will not be punished) until you deliver what is there in your womb. One of the Ansar became responsible for her until she was delivered (of the child). He (that Ansari) came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and said the woman of Ghamid has given birth to a child. He (the Holy Prophet) said: In that case we shall not stone her and so leave her infant with none to suckle him. One of the Ansar got up and said: Allah's Apostle, let the responsibility of his suckling be upon me. She was then stoned to death.

Book 017, Number 4206:
'Abdullah b. Buraida reported on the authority of his father that Ma'iz b. Malik al-Aslami came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Allah's Messenger, I have wronged myself; I have committed adultery and I earnestly desire that you should purify me. He turned him away. On the following day, he (Ma'iz) again came to him and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) turned him away for the second time, and sent him to his people saying: Do you know if there is anything wrong with his mind. They denied of any such thing in him and said: We do not know him but as a wise good man among us, so far as we can judge. He (Ma'iz) came for the third time, and he (the Holy Prophet) sent him as he had done before. He asked about him and they informed him that there was nothing wrong with him or with his mind. When it was the fourth time, a ditch was dug for him and he (the Holy Prophet) pronounced judg- ment about him and he wis stoned. He (the narrator) said: There came to him (the Holy Prophet) a woman from Ghamid and said: Allah's Messenger, I have committed adultery, so purify me. He (the Holy Prophet) turned her away. On the following day she said: Allah's Messenger, Why do you turn me away? Perhaps, you turn me away as you turned away Ma'iz. By Allah, I have become pregnant. He said: Well, if you insist upon it, then go away until you give birth to (the child). When she was delivered she came with the child (wrapped) in a rag and said: Here is the child whom I have given birth to. He said: Go away and suckle him until you wean him. When she had weaned him, she came to him (the Holy Prophet) with the child who was holding a piece of bread in his hand. She said: Allah's Apostle, here is he as I have weaned him and he eats food. He (the Holy Prophet) entrusted the child to one of the Muslims and then pronounced punishment. And she was put in a ditch up to her chest and he commanded people and they stoned her. Khalid b Walid came forward with a stone which he flung at her head and there spurted blood on the face of Khalid and so he abused her. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) heard his (Khalid's) curse that he had huried upon her. Thereupon he (the Holy Prophet) said: Khalid, be gentle. By Him in Whose Hand is my life, she has made such a repentance that even if a wrongful tax-collector were to repent, he would have been forgiven. Then giving command regarding her, he prayed over her and she was buried.

Book 017, Number 4207:
Imran b. Husain reported that a woman from Juhaina came to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) and she had become pregnant because of adultery. She said: Allah's Apostle, I have done something for which (prescribed punishment) must be imposed upon me, so impose that. Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) called her master and said: Treat her well, and when she delivers bring her to me. He did accordingly. Then Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about her and her clothes were tied around her and then he commanded and she was stoned to death. He then prayed over her (dead body). Thereupon Umar said to him: Allah's Apostle, you offer prayer for her, whereas she had committed adultery! Thereupon he said: She has made such a repentance that if it were to be divided among seventy men of Medina, it would be enough. Have you found any repentance better than this that she sacr ficed her life for Allah, the Majestic?

Book 017, Number 4209:
Abu Huraira and Zaid b Khalid al-Juhani reported that one of the desert tribes came to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) and said: Messenger of Allah, I beg of you in the name of Allah that you pronounce judgment about me according to the Book of Allah. The second claimant who was wiser than him said: Well, decide amongst us according to the Book of Allah, but permit me (to say something). Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon ham) said: Say. He said: My son was a servant in the house of this person and he committed adultery with his wife. I was informed that my son deserved stoning to death (as punishment for this offence). I gave one hundred goats and a slave girl as ransom for this. I asked the scholars (if this could serve as an expiation for this offence). They informed me that my son deserved one hundred lathes and exile for one year. and this woman deserved stoning (as she was married). Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him) said: By Him in Whose Hand is my life. I will decide between you according to the Book of Allah. The slave-girl and the goats should be given back, and your son is to be punished with one hundred lashes and exile for one year. And, O Unais (b. Zuhaq al-Aslami), go to this woman in the morning, and if she makes a confession, then stone her. He (the narrator) said: He went to her in the morning and she made a confession. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) made pronouncement about her and she was stoned to death.

Book 017, Number 4211:
Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that a Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) who had committed adultery. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) came to the Jews and said: What do you find in Torah for one who commits adultery? They said: We darken their faces and make them ride on the donkey with their faces turned to the opposite direction (and their backs touching each other), and then they are taken round (the city). He said: Bring Torah if you are truthful. They brought it and recited it until when they came to the verse pertaining to stoning, the person who was reading placed his hand on the verse pertaining to stoning, and read (only that which was) between his hands and what was subsequent to that. Abdullah b. Salim who was at that time with the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Command him (the reciter) to lift his hand. He lifted it and there was, underneath that, the verse pertaining to stoning. Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) pronounced judgment about both of them and they were stoned. Abdullah b. 'Umar said: I was one of those who stoned them, and I saw him (the Jew) protecting her (the Jewess) with his body.

Book 017, Number 4212:
Ibn Umar reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stoned to death the Jews, both male and female, who had committed adultery. The Jews brought them to Allah's Messenger (may peace he upon him). The rest of the hadith is the same.

Book 017, Number 4216:
Jabir b. 'Abdullah reported that Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) stoned (to death) a person from Banu Aslam, and a Jew and his wife.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Morgan:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by newcomer:
[b]Assalamu alaykum AN@S!

Welcome to the ES and thanks for your comments, but if you had read the article at the beginning of the thread carefully and the comments that followed you would have realised that the article was taken from another website which has been set up by ex-Muslims who are trying to create doubts in Muslims’ minds about their religion. It cannot be denied that there are some Muslims who do abuse their wives and the religion, so this article could be true as it appears that this woman has written other similar articles, and it is very testing for any woman’s faith to be in an abusive relationship, particularly if the husband is abusing the rights given to him by the religion to subjugate the woman. However as you pointed out similar scenarios can also be found among non-Muslims too.

---

When the article was first posted I did a search on Google and found the article on the "faithfreedom" website. I checked this again after your comment (!!!!) and could only find another article by the same author. However, when I did a search on "themodernreligion" I found nether the article nor anything by the same author...perhaps Google was half-asleep when I did the search!

As to what I care about and don't care about that is not something that I care to debate with someone who uses foul language and insults people who don't agree with their own point of view.

Irigami,

You are wonderful. I learnt a lot from you since you started on this board. I am rereading the bibles again.

Who says that a Muslim woman should want equality any way?

I agree with you newcomer, I do not desire equality. I tell my husband what to do all the time, and he does it.
No, I do not want equality, I am happy the way I am.

quote:

---

Originally posted by salama:
[QUOTE]Originally posted by newcomer:
[B]Hi IVIr!

Who says that a Muslim woman should want equality any way?

I agree with you newcomer, I do not desire equality. I tell my husband what to do all the time, and he does it.
No, I do not want equality, I am happy the way I am.

[This message has been edited by salama (edited 26 April 2005).]

---

No one really believes that the institution of Islam respects Christianity, so stop treating us like fools. I do believe that a limited number of Muslims respect Christianity, but that's only because they refuse to strictly obey the Quran.

There are no weak points of Christianity Penelope, and it's revealing that you only threatened to find fault without actually doing so. The men and women who practice Christianity may do so in flawed ways, and certainly leaders of various denominations may lead improperly or contradict one another. However, don't confuse this with Christ and his message in the new testament, for it is without fault.

Islam truly is a belief system that does nothing for its adherents but choke them with envy and hatred. You can't seem to make a point without comparing it somehow to Jews and Christians. Why do you have this amazing inclination to keep doing that?

Islam is weak because the founder was a murderous tyrant and a rapist. The good book of Islam commands its subjects to kill infidels and to deceive them. That's why your conversations with the outside world bear no similarity to the ones you have with each other. It would also explain why the lie "Religion of Peace" in no way matches up with the results.

Can you name for me one other religion that must constantly convince people it isn't a bloody curse on everyone else? Oh that's right - bring out Judaism and Christianity again - you always do that.

Could you possibly explain why Muslim-led nations are always making life so damn hard for those that don't attend a mosque? Of course you could, but you'd rather lie about it. Perhaps the cheers and celebratory goat-screwing that followed 9/11 was just a big misunderstanding; it was really meant as a sign of respect for nations that can actually build things.

For the male cowards of the Religion of Peace who find such satisfaction in beating the hell out of their wives, find me the passage that condemns this practice. You can't, don't want to, or you'll simply lie about it.

But I understand, it's not your fault. Islam holds a very powerful trance over its subjects. I don't condemn Muslims, but their belief system is a global menace.

But I understand, it's not your fault. Islam holds a very powerful trance over its subjects. I don't condemn Muslims, but their belief system is a global menace.

The people raised in this cult of mania are in my prayers. You're only hope is Christianity.

The world said:

Fast-growing Islam winning converts in Western world
April 14, 1997
Web posted at: 11:41 p.m. EDT (0341 GMT)
From Correspondent Gayle Young

Fastest-growing religion

The second-largest religion in the world after Christianity, Islam is the fastest-growing religion. In the United States, for example, nearly 80 percent of the more than 1,200 mosques have been built in the past 12 years.

Some scholars see an emerging Muslim renaissance as Islam takes root in many traditionally Christian communities.

Islam has drawn converts from all walks of life, most notably African-Americans. Former NAACP President Benjamin Chavis, who joined the Nation of Islam recently, personifies the trend.

"In societies where you have minorities that are discriminated against, I think they may find an appeal in Islam," said Waleed Kazziha of American University in Cairo.

Many moderate Islamic countries such as Turkey and Egypt are becoming more conservative.

Two decades ago, few middle-class Egyptian women wore scarves or veils on their heads. Now they crowd into special emporiums that advertise Islamic clothing.

A colleague of mine asked me recetly, but why so many are attracted to your religion?

- Well, David, you can not challenge the truth for long.

You're only capacity to answer my questions lies in citing archived footage from CNN; that's not very encouraging.

Do you think people who have experienced the fruits of Islam since 9/11 have the exact same opinion that they held before it?

My remarks are intended to address the problems posed by Islam. But I do have sympathy for those trapped in its grip.

You're only capacity to answer my questions lies in citing archived footage from CNN; that's not very encouraging.

Jersey, It was intended dear, these are not my opinions therefore you could accuse me of unreasonable- these are your people , not ours.

Jersey wrote:
Do you think people who have experienced the fruits of Islam since 9/11 have the exact same opinion that they held before it?

Again, do you really have any evidence that it was a moslim who has done it?
If so, why on earth, not a single one was charged. The two people you arrested were charge with illegal entry like 1000'0 of other people from other religious persuations?
Give me one evidence, I will provide with names and addresses of people who knew it and were involved directly or indirectly.
The Yanki authorties know about but would dare to say a word.They would be the Anti..

Jersey still at it:
My remarks are intended to address the problems posed by Islam. But I do have sympathy for those trapped in its grip.

Aha, thanks, we are ever so grateful for your sympathy.
Let me tell you something dear Jesey, at home in Egypt, I was not a moslim in deed, although I was born a moslim- at least in my teen years.
It is only when I lived in the west that became one ( let us call- just for fun- Born again Moslim ).

The only pressure that I had here is one like you, which made even stronger in my faith.

Jersey further nasty statements:
You'll have to do better than convert black felons before you convince others it's a good idea.

Being racist does not help you, all those I know who converted to Islam were in fact not only white , but also highly educated, not a single black among them.

I am now on the hunt for black converts to complete our universal converts circle in London.
Would you like to join? Will be asking you to cleanse first.

I can hardly make sense of your response. You appear to be disputing the culpability of Muslims for 9/11. Are you really that misinformed?

As for the black felons observation, it happens to be accurate. You can dismiss it as racist I suppose; but then I would ask what problem you have with black Muslims?

As usual, a typical mish mash that makes little sense.

I don't believe your statement that white professionals in droves are seeking out this perversion. What's in it for them besides a history lesson on a warlord who likes to poach other religions? By the way, he couldn't even live up to his own standards.

4.34.: "Men are in charge of women, because Allah hath made the one of them to excel the other, and because they spend of their property (for the support of women). So good women are the obedient, guarding in secret that which Allah hath guarded. As for those [women] from whom ye fear rebellion, admonish them and banish them to beds apart; and scourge [beat] them. Then, if they obey you, seek not a way against them. Lo! Allah is ever High Exalted, Great."

That's right, get out the rod and beat your women black and blue.

I'm sure it taxed every brain cell to suggest the Jooooosssss were behind 9/11.

I cited specific verses in the Quran proscribing the beating of women and decapitating infidels (on another topic). I don't suppose you could explain how Christianity factors into that madness as well? You didn't heed my admonition to leave Judaism and Christianity out of any answer to a question directed at Islam, but naturally a cloak has been placed over your critical thinking skills. But it's not your fault you have been raised this way. Your precious prophet was a violent warlord who on numerous occasions approved the rape, slaughter and enslavement of women. MY HERO.

As for your respect of Christianity, you have none so please stop lying. I don't care about your friends, leave them out of it. You call them friends IN SPITE of their faith, and because you have chosen to ignore your own in maintaining these friendships.

A question that centers around God's son and only one son was phrased in bewilderment. But I understand, your fake prophet has told you not to ask questions and only do what he tells you, so this makes perfect sense.

Your only hope will be an open mind, and a sincere reflection of the disaster that is Islam.

And don't bother asking about my education; it's tiresome and is obviously the distraction you so desperately need that will prolong your misguided ways.

well, Jesey, either you are a jew or a christo, read the following- these are not my words.

It is not difficult to see why discussion of the relationship of violence and Christianity is controversial.
[1] When asked whether Christianity supports violence and is a violent religion, does one answer "Of course -- look at the crusades, the multiple blessings of wars, warrior popes, support for capital punishment, corporal punishment under the guise of 'spare the rod and spoil the child,' justifications of slavery, world-wide colonialism in the name of conversion to Christianity, the systemic violence of women subjected to men, and more"? Or does one respond, "Of course not -- look at Jesus, the beginning point of Christian faith, who is worshiped as 'Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace' (Isa. 9:6); whose Sermon on the Mount taught nonviolence and love of enemies; who faced his accusers nonviolently and then died a nonviolent death; whose nonviolent teaching inspired the first centuries of pacifist Christian history and was subsequently preserved in the justifiable war d octrine that declares all war as sin even when declaring it occasionally a necessary evil, and in the prohibition of fighting by monastics and clergy as well as in a persistent tradition of Christian pacifism"? But these answers are apparently contradictory. Does one of them trump the other? Or might there be yet another answer?

This essay addresses the relationship between violence and Christianity by examining aspects of Christian theology. Specifically, it examines violence and assumptions of violence in the classic formulations of the central Christian doctrines of atonement and Christology. While this analysis finds classic theology in large part guilty of accommodating and supporting violence, the essay also points to a specifically nonviolent Christian answer.

I am using broad definitions of the terms "violence" and "nonviolence." "Violence" means harm or damage, which obviously includes the direct violence of killing -- in war, capital punishment, murder -- but also covers the range of forms of systemic violence such as poverty, racism, and sexism. "Nonviolence" also covers a spectrum of attitudes and actions, from the classic Mennonite idea of passive nonresistance through active nonviolence and nonviolent resistance that would include various kinds of social action, confrontations and posing of alternatives that do not do bodily harm or injury

Why do Muslim nations make life such hell for people that don't attend mosques (i.e. infidels)?

quote:

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Originally posted by JerseyCity4:
You misguided people still haven't answered my question.

Why do Muslim nations make life such hell for people that don't attend mosques (i.e. infidels)?

Yes PRChick, this is true, stop doing turns with the equivalency nonsense.

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quote:

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Originally posted by JerseyCity4:
You misguided people still haven't answered my question.

Why do Muslim nations make life such hell for people that don't attend mosques (i.e. infidels)?

Yes PRChick, this is true, stop doing turns with the equivalency nonsense.

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quote:

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Originally posted by penelope:
excuse me jersycity4, but who told u that those who don't go to mosques their nation makes them suffer, have u ever visited a moslim country, I'm sure u never did, I'm an Egyptian, & in my country I never heard of the government torturing someone for not going to the mosque, in tunisia they do the opposite, a friend from their told me that they prevent ppl from praying & it is an Arab country, if u mean Saudi Arabia, I spent sometime there, & I got to knew some ppl who didn't go to the mosque, not for every pray, I myself didn't go to the mosque all the time, just from time to time, & logically do u think that the government or any other organizations have enough time to follow up all the moslims who don't pray at the mosque have u ever went through an IQ test???? be sure that noone can hurt a moslim because he doesn't go to the mosque, u know why cauz ur country, the GREAT USA will never allow this, it's the Gaurd of dimocracy over the world everyday we see a proof of that at the media.hope u'll find this a convinient answer to u -as if I care-. u didn't give me any answer to any question I've asked u in my last reply, which has one only meaning that u don't have any, obviously u r not convinced with ur religion.u r right prchick jersycity4 is trying to pick fights, it's v. obvious, but u cann't blame him, it's kind of self-defence, what can he do to protect himself as he thinks that Moslims r too powerful for him that they even might eat him alive POOR THING but after all he is living in the USA, so don't blame him, u should sympathize with him, & to all the members try to talk to him to comfort him of his fears, PLEASE TRY TO HELP HIM, he is too scard to help himself. & I'll start by myself, I went on line today to continue my discussion of the weak points of Christianity, but after reading his replies I won't, why should I?! he'll not be able to answer me anyway, or else he would have did it before, as I said he is not convinced with his own religion, so any more talking about that'll make him lose his faith ( I mean the v.little thing left ), so please everyone let him say what he likes, DO NOT answer him back, please don't, he deserves ur sympathy, try to comfort him plz. now there's no need to go on with that topic any more, don't u think so all? lets chang it a little bit, the title of that topic is " Being a Muslim Woman: A Blessing or a Curse", let's make it: " Being a Woman: A Blessing or a Curse", sorry guys this topic is for women only :P , what do u think girls? being a female is it a blessing or a curse?! what about u salama? I'll post my reply to this question later after reading urs, wonder who'll be the first lady???

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quote:

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Originally posted by penelope:
actually I expected to find a girl answering my last post, I don't know whether u r a girl or not trouble, but any way u haven't answered my question: what do u think being a woman is it a blessing or a curse????

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Women are not a curse, they are angels... as long as they'r not married :

An old man goes to the Wizard to ask him if he can remove a curse he has been living with for the last 40 years. The Wizard says, "Maybe, but you will have to tell me the exact words that were used to put the curse on you."

The old man says without hesitation, "I now pronounce you man and wife."

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Originally posted by Morgan:
Being a Muslim Woman: A Blessing or a Curse?
2005/03/26

By Yagmur Dursun

The status of women has become a focus of today’s society. Some people are trying to advance the cause of equality in the real world, while others are looking for equality in their religious books. For example, Muslims are claiming that Islam accords high status to women. Many Islamic scholars dashed off numerous articles about sexual equality in Islam. They are telling us that Islam is the only solution.

Many critics question the concept of equality in Islam.

As a Muslim woman with bitter experiences, I dare to question “Islamic equality”. I am neither a scholar nor a PhD. But I hope my personal experience will be interesting to readers.

All Muslim men are extremely proud of polygamy. They say that western men are unfaithful and they have many lovers. But unlike westerners, Muslim men take care of all their women. I say I’d rather be a lover than a wife in a polygamous marriage.

My whole life is about pleasing my husband. Since I am not the only wife, I also have to compete with my co-wife. How humiliating it is for a woman to compete with another woman in pleasing a man! If I were the only woman, I could say no and explain why I don’t want to please him. But now I can’t stop him or say no. If I do, my husband won’t even think about why I’m dissatisfied with his begaviour. He will say that he has another wife and I can rebel as much as I want but in the end it won’t change anything (and he is right). If I were a western woman, I could demand divorce. I can’t do it now because one’s husband having a second wife is not a reason for a divorce. If I were a western woman, I’d have the right to be angry at my husband for having a lover. But I can’t be angry now, because it’s morally acceptable for a Muslim to have many wives.

Most importantly, I have children. If I don’t compete with my co-wife and win, my children will be disadvantaged.

It’s so hard to see one’s husband kissing another woman. I am not an animal; I am a human being with feelings. Just like men I can be jealous. But who cares about me and my feelings?

I’ve recently received a book named “How to become a good Muslimah” as a gift. Being a good Muslimah is about pleasing your husband and forgetting about yourself – I have already understood it.

If I were a lover, I would be loved. As a Muslim woman, I am only an object – a sex object, an incubator and a maid to my husband. I am there to serve HIM and to please HIM.

Luckily enough, I am in the West. There is hope for me. I CAN rebel and I WILL rebel. I only pray for my poor sisters in Muslim countries.

Some western men batter their wives. They are punished. They are NOT encouraged by their religion to beat their wives. Muslims are.

Muslims say that it’s only permissible to beat your wife ‘gently’. Where is it said in the Koran that men should beat their wives gently? Frankly, I am sick of this discussion. How can a man discipline his wife even with a handkerchief? Are women stupid or children? Yes, we are stupid according to Islam. When my husband beats me, he always says that he wishes me well. If I am obedient, I will enter Heaven.

Has anyone been beaten with a toothbrush or a handkerchief? Well, believe me; it is as humiliating as being beaten with a rod (which is kept in our house in case someone really hits my husband’s raw nerve). You feel like an adolescent, who was disobedient and has to be punished. I feel so stupid and miserable. If I go to imam, he will say that it is permissible for a man to disciple gently his wife. If I was severely battered, I need witnesses. All these things are happening in the UK . Muslims are living in a parallel world; they are not interested in secular laws that are meant to protect women. Imagine what’s happening in Muslim countries?!

What about being told that you are deficient in intelligence and religion? My husband doesn’t pay much attention to what his wives say because we are ‘full of deficiencies’. We are meant to bring up children. That’s all. When I asked my husband if I could work, he laughed and replied that he sympathizes with employers who take on women. Nobody can succeed if he has female employees.

How did it happen? How could liberated women of Arabia accede to these humiliations and absurd demands of Mohammed? How could they believe him? It’s obvious to me. Remember, we women, are main dwellers of Hell. Unfortunately impressionable Arab women were deceived into believing in this lie and said goodbye to their rights.

If I don’t want to have sex, nobody cares to respect my wishes. If I try to resist his advances, I will just be forced to submit. Muslims say that it is natural for men to have a big appetite for multiple women. As far as I know, it is questionable but I’d like to bring up another subject. Religion is supposed to help people to achieve the highest standard of morality. With the help of religion, people are supposed to refuse to give in to their sinful nature. Islam, however, upholds the worst traits of human character. Muslim men may want to have sex with many women, but they are living in a civilized society. Can’t they overcome their beastly nature and show that they are civilized?

Christianity is pro monogamy. It will make you a better human being, if you are monogamous and fight against your sinful desires. If you are a Muslim, you get carte blanche to turn into an animal.

My experience with my husband proves that it’s better for me to submit to his whims and have sex with him whenever he chooses, even when I am not ready for it. After all, I don’t want to be beaten with our special rod.

If a Muslim woman wants to rebel, she is called disobedient and beaten. If she tries to question Islam, she is presented with quotes from the Quran or threatened with burning in Hell. So much for the equality in Islam!

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*Fun Things To Do During Boring Sermons*

~ Pass a note to the organist asking whether he/she plays requests.

~ See if a yawn really is contagious.

~ Slap your neighbor. See if they turn the other cheek. If not, raise your hand and tell the preacher.

~ Devise ways of climbing into the balcony without using the stairs.

~ Listen for your preacher to use a word beginning with 'A' then 'B and so on through the alphabet.

~ Sit in the back row and roll a handful of marbles under the pews ahead of you. After the service, credit yourself with 10 points for every marble that made it to the front.

~ Using church bulletins or visitor cards for raw materials, design, test and modify a collection of paper airplanes.

~ Start from the back of the church and try to crawl all the way to the front, under the pews, without being noticed.

~ Raise your hand and ask for permission to go to the rest room.

~ Whip out a hankie and blow your nose. Vary the pressure exerted on your nostrils and trumpet out a rendition of your favorite hymn.

~ Chew gum; if the sermon goes on for more than 30 minutes, start blowing bubbles.

~ Try to indicate to the minister that his fly is undone.

~ By unobtrusively drawing your arms up into your sleeves, turn your shirt around backwards.

~ While people are locating the announced congregational song, step out in the aisle and begin waving your arms as if directing the hymn.

~ Sit close to the front, and during the prayer, turn around backwards, point, and count softly how many people do not have their heads bowed and eyes closed.

~ See how many hard candies you can stuff in your cheeks before your mother catches you.

~ Begin coughing and get louder and louder until you get to excuse yourself and leave the room.