Islam on the other hand, is a constant menace to the world peace and to the Muslims themselves who are capable to sacrifice their own lives in order to kill the "enemies" of Islam. The level of fanaticism is far greater amongst the average Muslims, than the average Christians or Jews. Religious fundamentalism is the product of ignorance and knowledge is the best antidote for ignorance. The level of education in Islamic countries is generally low and the kind of education is deficient and biased. Unfortunately Islam is based on fanatical devotion to the Quran and Muhammad’s examples above everything else. Muhammad used the most vile and horrible methods such as ethnic cleansing, secret assassinations, kidnappings, robbery, deceit and cunning in the propagation of Islam and domination of other people. Such has become the morality of Islamic politics broadly and generally for 1400 years, despite tactical withdrawals, and this is codified in scores after scores of violence generating and hate-breeding Quranic verses. The terrorists get all the moral support they need from the Qur’an while the `good Muslims’ do neither challenge its divine basis nor read it except at times in classical Arabic which the latter do not understand but still revere as God’s word.

The fact, that the vast majority of the so called moderate Muslims denounce the reformists, shows that they are not willing even to take the first step to reducing violence. Moderate Islam has never agreed to reform the Quran and anyone who tries to do so is branded and persecuted as an apostate by the very common Muslims. The moderate Muslims leave the violent basis of Islam unchallenged for the terrorist to implement, while they present the ritualistic side to the world and thereby deceive it. Moderate Islam is more deadly because while the terrorists are clear enemies, the moderates make inroads into `infidel’ lands, and deceive the host cultures until the terrorists could do the dirty work. Without the moderate Islamic facade, the terrorists cannot survive because they will be quickly exposed. History is replete with example after example of this typically Muslim deceitful strategy of advance.

The evidence that moderate Muslims protect the terrorists is as follows: As soon as the terrorists strike somewhere in the west, (such as the London underground), the moderates appear on the television and other media with the following deceits: “The terrorists were not Muslims; The terrorists came from abroad; The terrorists were Israelis or western intelligence agencies who want to give a bad name to Islam; We are under threat from the far right; We need protection from the far right”. The moderate Muslims do not allow Islamic reformers and critics on their scores of television channels though they use every available media to propagate that they are the victims of non-Muslims and thus incite hate and anger. More evidence comes from that while the moderates seldom report the terrorists to the police, they force the reformists to run for their lives.

The mindset of the terrorist is the extreme manifestation of that of a devout Muslim. The two vary only in form and modus operandi, not in nature. That is why we do not see active resistance to terrorism from within Islam. For example, the Arab League has made no serious efforts to bring the Iraqi factions to live in peace. Likewise, the `moderate’ Muslim leaders in Britain always refuse to accept that there are Islamic terrorists in Britain .

At best this war can be made to end in a century but the developed world has become too civilised (or apathetic) to contemplate the methods by which Islamic terrorism can be really stopped. People brought up in the developed countries have become too mentally advanced to be able to deeply understand primitive, medieval and dark-ages cultures. Their conceptual tools cannot fathom the true reality of an Islamist terrorist. In the past they banned communist and Nazi propaganda books but now one finds the many times more deadly Quran being regularly preached to vulnerable children even in the west. There is not even one television channel where experts could be employed to make programs to cognitively challenge Islamic dogmas while Islamic preaching and recruitment goes on in most parts of the world and through every possible media. The developed world unwittingly funds the terrorists by paying billions in oil money to the Saudis where at least half the population is educated only in Islamic fascism and to spread it across the world.

Muslims have a feeling of alienation that people in the Islamic countries have towards the rapidly changing and infiltrating western culture. The West is marching towards a secular civilization reaping the fruits of science and freedom. Islamic countries were not ready yet for this change. They were left behind and therefore have developed inferiority complex vs the Westerners. This inferiority complex is further accentuated due to the physical and economical domination of the colonial countries in most of the Islamic world during the 19th century. Today that domination does no more exist, or at least it is subtle and behind the curtains. However the Western culture keeps invading the Islamic countries through Hollywood movies and TV serials. Muslims see their identity threatened and therefore react by going back to their roots. They seek in Islam their identity and their self worth. The general sentiment is that even if the West has scientific and materialistic advantage over us, we have the best religion and God is with us. Conversion of few westerners to Islam validates that religion and feeds the fundamentalism. In my opinion Islam is a religion that cannot separate itself from fundamentalism without denying almost all the teachings of Quran. The only way to hamper the surge of fanaticism is to weaken the Islam itself. All we have to do is to explain the Quran and the hadith to the Muslims.

http://faithfreedom.org/faq/17.htm

In order to think critically about an issue, you must be able to read and study a variety of sources and then synthesize the information to form your own educated opinion. To merely learn a variety of texts by rote and not analyze them leads nowhere other than to a superior ability to regurgitate information elsewhere.

It's like you can only see the individual trees and have no idea there is a whole forest out there. So there are violent events in Islam. OK. No question. You found them. And pointed them out, ad nauseam.

Like pointing out an oak tree in the vast forest. You get *really* good at identifying all those oak trees out there. But seem to have no idea what role that oak tree plays in the forest's life.

You summarily dismiss all the other moral teachings of the Qur'an. How can they not matter in your analysis? The oak tree in the forest is influenced by the pine trees that grow next to it, the ivy that grows beneath, the bugs that pollenate, the animals that eat, the rain and the sun and the air that feed it. There is a *synthesis* there in that forest, just like there is in life. Just like there is in Islam.

So there are violent aspects to Islam. Like there are violent aspects to every human being. A complex religious doctrine for a complex creature in a universe we cannot even begin to fathom. A complex oak tree, because even one tree is complex (like the complexities of violence), in a much more vast and complex forest.

Because what *I* see when I look at and study Islam, is the *whole picture.* The brilliance of a religion that can set a human being on the right path, the moral path, to love God above all, and secondly to love all human beings.

Like looking at the oak tree. I could sit there and focus on the oak tree to death. Being really pissed off at how it's sucking up nutrients out of the earth that would better serve the budding dogwood tree next to it. Or blocking the precious rain that cannot make its way down to the poor little dying baby bird at the base of the tree. How evil that oak tree is for being so selfish, so violent, so wrong. And I'll believe it. Truly.

I could write a dissertation on how evil that oak tree is.

See how foolish that sounds? That's how people's arguments sound to *me* when they hone in on very particular violent aspects of Islam to the exclusion of all else the religion is.

Because you can't, or don't want to see the incredible complex beauty of the forest. You're just hell-bent on that damned oak tree.

To me, therefore, your arguments against Islam are, and always will be, incomplete.

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4 ever:
The reason is because Christianity and Judaism are exposed and demystified already by many scholars born within Judaic and Christendoms. They do not need any help from us. More important of all, we have no business to criticize the religions of others, unless they become a danger to us. No one would pay attention anyway, because it is natural that the followers of different religions attack each other’s faiths. This kind of religious feuding has been going on since the beginning of the history of mankind. We have to see our own errors not the errors of others. We are responsible for ourselves not for others. If we find our own mistakes and bring them to the light, it is because we love our people. But if we point out the faults of the others, they dismiss it and they become hostiles and intensify their fanaticism. Apart from that, unlike Islam, Christianity and Judaism represent no threat to the peace and security of the world.

Islam on the other hand, is a constant menace to the world peace and to the Muslims themselves who are capable to sacrifice their own lives in order to kill the "enemies" of Islam. The level of fanaticism is far greater amongst the average Muslims, than the average Christians or Jews. Religious fundamentalism is the product of ignorance and knowledge is the best antidote for ignorance. The level of education in Islamic countries is generally low and the kind of education is deficient and biased. Unfortunately Islam is based on fanatical devotion to the Quran and Muhammad’s examples above everything else. Muhammad used the most vile and horrible methods such as ethnic cleansing, secret assassinations, kidnappings, robbery, deceit and cunning in the propagation of Islam and domination of other people. Such has become the morality of Islamic politics broadly and generally for 1400 years, despite tactical withdrawals, and this is codified in scores after scores of violence generating and hate-breeding Quranic verses. The terrorists get all the moral support they need from the Qur’an while the `good Muslims’ do neither challenge its divine basis nor read it except at times in classical Arabic which the latter do not understand but still revere as God’s word.

The fact, that the vast majority of the so called moderate Muslims denounce the reformists, shows that they are not willing even to take the first step to reducing violence. Moderate Islam has never agreed to reform the Quran and anyone who tries to do so is branded and persecuted as an apostate by the very common Muslims. The moderate Muslims leave the violent basis of Islam unchallenged for the terrorist to implement, while they present the ritualistic side to the world and thereby deceive it. Moderate Islam is more deadly because while the terrorists are clear enemies, the moderates make inroads into `infidel’ lands, and deceive the host cultures until the terrorists could do the dirty work. Without the moderate Islamic facade, the terrorists cannot survive because they will be quickly exposed. History is replete with example after example of this typically Muslim deceitful strategy of advance.

The evidence that moderate Muslims protect the terrorists is as follows: As soon as the terrorists strike somewhere in the west, (such as the London underground), the moderates appear on the television and other media with the following deceits: “The terrorists were not Muslims; The terrorists came from abroad; The terrorists were Israelis or western intelligence agencies who want to give a bad name to Islam; We are under threat from the far right; We need protection from the far right”. The moderate Muslims do not allow Islamic reformers and critics on their scores of television channels though they use every available media to propagate that they are the victims of non-Muslims and thus incite hate and anger. More evidence comes from that while the moderates seldom report the terrorists to the police, they force the reformists to run for their lives.

The mindset of the terrorist is the extreme manifestation of that of a devout Muslim. The two vary only in form and modus operandi, not in nature. That is why we do not see active resistance to terrorism from within Islam. For example, the Arab League has made no serious efforts to bring the Iraqi factions to live in peace. Likewise, the `moderate’ Muslim leaders in Britain always refuse to accept that there are Islamic terrorists in Britain .

At best this war can be made to end in a century but the developed world has become too civilised (or apathetic) to contemplate the methods by which Islamic terrorism can be really stopped. People brought up in the developed countries have become too mentally advanced to be able to deeply understand primitive, medieval and dark-ages cultures. Their conceptual tools cannot fathom the true reality of an Islamist terrorist. In the past they banned communist and Nazi propaganda books but now one finds the many times more deadly Quran being regularly preached to vulnerable children even in the west. There is not even one television channel where experts could be employed to make programs to cognitively challenge Islamic dogmas while Islamic preaching and recruitment goes on in most parts of the world and through every possible media. The developed world unwittingly funds the terrorists by paying billions in oil money to the Saudis where at least half the population is educated only in Islamic fascism and to spread it across the world.

Muslims have a feeling of alienation that people in the Islamic countries have towards the rapidly changing and infiltrating western culture. The West is marching towards a secular civilization reaping the fruits of science and freedom. Islamic countries were not ready yet for this change. They were left behind and therefore have developed inferiority complex vs the Westerners. This inferiority complex is further accentuated due to the physical and economical domination of the colonial countries in most of the Islamic world during the 19th century. Today that domination does no more exist, or at least it is subtle and behind the curtains. However the Western culture keeps invading the Islamic countries through Hollywood movies and TV serials. Muslims see their identity threatened and therefore react by going back to their roots. They seek in Islam their identity and their self worth. The general sentiment is that even if the West has scientific and materialistic advantage over us, we have the best religion and God is with us. Conversion of few westerners to Islam validates that religion and feeds the fundamentalism. In my opinion Islam is a religion that cannot separate itself from fundamentalism without denying almost all the teachings of Quran. The only way to hamper the surge of fanaticism is to weaken the Islam itself. All we have to do is to explain the Quran and the hadith to the Muslims.

[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 30 August 2005).]

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
lets add a little balance to this discussion. Islam is going through now what christianity went through 400 to 500 years ago. You have a substantial number of its followers who want to spread their religion by political and military means. It is an effort that will fail but before it does millions of people may be killed.
They also want to play this zero sum game where they want everything and want to give you nothing. The west needs to follow the lead of President Bush and PM Tony Blair and keep a hard line aganist these fanatics. The end game will have to be culture change in the middle east and that process is well under way.

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I have no problem with your criticism of certain behavior, and I generally agree with you on those issues. But to crucify an entire religion, as some people here are wont to do, because of the acts of a few is just ludicrous to me.

quote:

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Originally posted by Leila:
That was really well said snoozin.. i always suspected there must have been some copying and pasting going on.

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Thank you, Leila.

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4 ever:
I have never read so much nonsense in one single post. But I am glad you are finally acknowledging a violent aspect to Islam. So Islam is not that peaceful after all. Who would have thought..

Re: copy and pasting. Who wrote the article is irrelevant, what is relevant is that I strongly agree with it, otherwise why would I post it if I didn´t agree with it 100%. Sometimes you cannot refer to the source, especially when you agree only with a certain point of the source and not with everything in it, or when you have to leave out the parts you find irrelevant. You have not been able to refute any of the points I made, so you are attacking the Messenger instead.

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Ah, I was giving you the benefit of the doubt, thinking you just didn't want to see the forest for the trees. Now I guess you just aren't capable of it. Not a big surprise.

quote:

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Originally posted by Snoozin:
I have no problem with your criticism of certain behavior, and I generally agree with you on those issues. But to crucify an entire religion, as some people here are wont to do, because of the acts of a few is just ludicrous to me.

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Wrong, it is because of the acts of Muhammad that we criticize Islam. "Real Islam” is the way of living the ‘Messenger of Allah’ (Muhammad) practiced and taught. Muhammad was a terrorist himself therefore terrorism cannot be separated from the true Islam. Comparing Islam’s ethics, or its followers ‘fruits’ to other religions, Islam does not have recognizable spiritual standards that can be called lofty.

Now, from the Muslim perspective using their own writings, let us examine in more detail some actions that Muhammad ordered.

quote:

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Originally posted by kafir4 ever:
Muhammad was a terrorist himself therefore terrorism cannot be separated from the true Islam..

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Do I really have to bang my head against the wall here? How many times do I have to tell you? -- Your arguments won't change the minds of people who respect Islam, just as our arguments won't change *your* mind.

Leave it at that.

quote:

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kafir4 ever
Member
Posts: 43
Registered: Aug 2005
posted 30 August 2005 07:54 AM
...

Newcomer, ok I will stop.

---

I thought it was too good to be true! So ok, you'll stop what????????

Sorry, I forgot to post the source: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum2/HTML/007001-3.html

From http://mentalhelp.net/
A lil' cut-and-paste for ya.

We dislike people who are different:

Research has shown that, in general, we like people like ourselves and dislike people who are different (Byrne, 1969). We naturally like people who reward us and dislike people who punish us; and, similarity is rewarding. If groups are competitive, critical, and punishing of each other, the dislike and aggression between the groups grow.

Groups and cultures tend to create ingroups and outgroups. Thus, Hitler used the existing hostility against Jews to unite, motivate, and deceive the German people in the 1930's. Likewise, the U.S. and Russia used distrust of each other during the "Cold War" to unite each country into uncooperative, hostile but mighty nations. And each person is expected to conform to his/her group's beliefs. Imagine trying during the 1980's to defend communistic ideas among Archie Bunkers, businessmen, or the Moral Majority. Or try to defend blacks among whites or whites among blacks--and see the hostility quickly rise towards you. In short, ingroups are valued. Outgroups are devalued, stereotyped, and scapegoated.

Sometimes the minority that is discriminated against by the majority culture turns the anger inward, resulting in self-destructive behavior, such as low self-esteem, self-blame (like abused women), alcoholism, drug abuse, and passive-resistance to the dominant culture's ideals of what is success. Certainly for a white northern European culture to believe that African, Chinese, and Indian cultures and histories are unimportant and inferior, is to be ignorant and disrespectful. Being poor is enough to make you mad, but to have your ancestors deceived, neglected, and disgraced is too much. Let's hope conditions improve before the wrath is unleashed outward. More about prejudice later.

quote:

---

Originally posted by kafir4 ever:
The reason is because Christianity and Judaism are exposed and demystified already by many scholars born within Judaic and Christendoms. They do not need any help from us. More important of all, we have no business to criticize the religions of others, unless they become a danger to us. No one would pay attention anyway, because it is natural that the followers of different religions attack each other’s faiths. This kind of religious feuding has been going on since the beginning of the history of mankind. We have to see our own errors not the errors of others. We are responsible for ourselves not for others. If we find our own mistakes and bring them to the light, it is because we love our people. But if we point out the faults of the others, they dismiss it and they become hostiles and intensify their fanaticism. Apart from that, unlike Islam, Christianity and Judaism represent no threat to the peace and security of the world.

Islam on the other hand, is a constant menace to the world peace and to the Muslims themselves who are capable to sacrifice their own lives in order to kill the "enemies" of Islam. The level of fanaticism is far greater amongst the average Muslims, than the average Christians or Jews. Religious fundamentalism is the product of ignorance and knowledge is the best antidote for ignorance. The level of education in Islamic countries is generally low and the kind of education is deficient and biased. Unfortunately Islam is based on fanatical devotion to the Quran and Muhammad’s examples above everything else. Muhammad used the most vile and horrible methods such as ethnic cleansing, secret assassinations, kidnappings, robbery, deceit and cunning in the propagation of Islam and domination of other people. Such has become the morality of Islamic politics broadly and generally for 1400 years, despite tactical withdrawals, and this is codified in scores after scores of violence generating and hate-breeding Quranic verses. The terrorists get all the moral support they need from the Qur’an while the `good Muslims’ do neither challenge its divine basis nor read it except at times in classical Arabic which the latter do not understand but still revere as God’s word.

The fact, that the vast majority of the so called moderate Muslims denounce the reformists, shows that they are not willing even to take the first step to reducing violence. Moderate Islam has never agreed to reform the Quran and anyone who tries to do so is branded and persecuted as an apostate by the very common Muslims. The moderate Muslims leave the violent basis of Islam unchallenged for the terrorist to implement, while they present the ritualistic side to the world and thereby deceive it. Moderate Islam is more deadly because while the terrorists are clear enemies, the moderates make inroads into `infidel’ lands, and deceive the host cultures until the terrorists could do the dirty work. Without the moderate Islamic facade, the terrorists cannot survive because they will be quickly exposed. History is replete with example after example of this typically Muslim deceitful strategy of advance.

The evidence that moderate Muslims protect the terrorists is as follows: As soon as the terrorists strike somewhere in the west, (such as the London underground), the moderates appear on the television and other media with the following deceits: “The terrorists were not Muslims; The terrorists came from abroad; The terrorists were Israelis or western intelligence agencies who want to give a bad name to Islam; We are under threat from the far right; We need protection from the far right”. The moderate Muslims do not allow Islamic reformers and critics on their scores of television channels though they use every available media to propagate that they are the victims of non-Muslims and thus incite hate and anger. More evidence comes from that while the moderates seldom report the terrorists to the police, they force the reformists to run for their lives.

The mindset of the terrorist is the extreme manifestation of that of a devout Muslim. The two vary only in form and modus operandi, not in nature. That is why we do not see active resistance to terrorism from within Islam. For example, the Arab League has made no serious efforts to bring the Iraqi factions to live in peace. Likewise, the `moderate’ Muslim leaders in Britain always refuse to accept that there are Islamic terrorists in Britain .

At best this war can be made to end in a century but the developed world has become too civilised (or apathetic) to contemplate the methods by which Islamic terrorism can be really stopped. People brought up in the developed countries have become too mentally advanced to be able to deeply understand primitive, medieval and dark-ages cultures. Their conceptual tools cannot fathom the true reality of an Islamist terrorist. In the past they banned communist and Nazi propaganda books but now one finds the many times more deadly Quran being regularly preached to vulnerable children even in the west. There is not even one television channel where experts could be employed to make programs to cognitively challenge Islamic dogmas while Islamic preaching and recruitment goes on in most parts of the world and through every possible media. The developed world unwittingly funds the terrorists by paying billions in oil money to the Saudis where at least half the population is educated only in Islamic fascism and to spread it across the world.

Muslims have a feeling of alienation that people in the Islamic countries have towards the rapidly changing and infiltrating western culture. The West is marching towards a secular civilization reaping the fruits of science and freedom. Islamic countries were not ready yet for this change. They were left behind and therefore have developed inferiority complex vs the Westerners. This inferiority complex is further accentuated due to the physical and economical domination of the colonial countries in most of the Islamic world during the 19th century. Today that domination does no more exist, or at least it is subtle and behind the curtains. However the Western culture keeps invading the Islamic countries through Hollywood movies and TV serials. Muslims see their identity threatened and therefore react by going back to their roots. They seek in Islam their identity and their self worth. The general sentiment is that even if the West has scientific and materialistic advantage over us, we have the best religion and God is with us. Conversion of few westerners to Islam validates that religion and feeds the fundamentalism. In my opinion Islam is a religion that cannot separate itself from fundamentalism without denying almost all the teachings of Quran. The only way to hamper the surge of fanaticism is to weaken the Islam itself. All we have to do is to explain the Quran and the hadith to the Muslims.

[This message has been edited by kafir4 ever (edited 30 August 2005).]

---

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
excellent point Susan but I have a couple of questions.
1. you mentioned that Hitler 'decieved' the German people. How did he do that?

2. In the last paragraph you refered to Euro attitudes toward other cultures. If I said that europe was superior to Africa in education would that be incorrect? if I said Europe is superior to Africa in standard of living or literacy would that be correct? I think you get my drift. Sounded like you might have been getting a little PC there?

---

1. In my opinion, he deceived the Germans by leading them to believe Jews were less-than-human, were the source of all their trouble, and by either marginalizing them in a ghetto or by exterminating them, somehow Germany would be a great power.

2. That whole paragraph is a cut-and-paste from a website, so it's not *me* getting PC, it's the mentalhelp.net site. However, I do entirely agree with it.

I understand your point about saying certain components of society are *superior* to another, such as education or literacy. But within the context of prejudice and its negative effects, I think that people take these indicators to somehow think that things like this mean Africa in general is somehow inferior to us. That the *people* are somehow inferior to us. And that type of thinking can lead to bad things, like our slave trade. We really did believe that Africans were less than human back then.

But you are also influenced by your own culture to place a very high value on things like education and literacy. We all are. I agree, personally, that education and literacy are very important. I think most of the world agrees. But to what extent?

Even here in the US I find differences in how people value education. Nobody in my neighborhood did. College was a waste of time for a girl in my very-rural hometown. Other things were more important. And this was 1985, not the dark ages.

To me, a person should be able to live his or her life the way they see fit, within the context of the social/moral norms. If my neighbor wants to get married at 18 and have lots of babies and never reads the newspaper, but she's extraordinarily happy and content with her wonderful husband and family and home life, who am I to judge? I just don't want that to prevent *my* getting a higher education.

quote:

---

Originally posted by Snoozin:
1. In my opinion, he deceived the Germans by leading them to believe Jews were less-than-human, were the source of all their trouble, and by either marginalizing them in a ghetto or by exterminating them, somehow Germany would be a great power.

2. That whole paragraph is a cut-and-paste from a website, so it's not *me* getting PC, it's the mentalhelp.net site. However, I do entirely agree with it.

I understand your point about saying certain components of society are *superior* to another, such as education or literacy. But within the context of prejudice and its negative effects, I think that people take these indicators to somehow think that things like this mean Africa in general is somehow inferior to us. That the *people* are somehow inferior to us. And that type of thinking can lead to bad things, like our slave trade. We really did believe that Africans were less than human back then.

But you are also influenced by your own culture to place a very high value on things like education and literacy. We all are. I agree, personally, that education and literacy are very important. I think most of the world agrees. But to what extent?

Even here in the US I find differences in how people value education. Nobody in my neighborhood did. College was a waste of time for a girl in my very-rural hometown. Other things were more important. And this was 1985, not the dark ages.

To me, a person should be able to live his or her life the way they see fit, within the context of the social/moral norms. If my neighbor wants to get married at 18 and have lots of babies and never reads the newspaper, but she's extraordinarily happy and content with her wonderful husband and family and home life, who am I to judge? I just don't want that to prevent *my* getting a higher education.

I want you to be able to live by the values you hold most dear, while I go and do the same. As long as this is within the framework of our society, and by that I mean just because a rapist *wants* to go around raping people doesn't give him the right because it hurts others. But your being a conservative-Texan type and my being a liberal DC type isn't hurting anyone. Not really.

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quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:
I think Hitler used an idea about the jews that many in Germany already agreed with. If you are interested in that subject i want to highly recommend Ian Kershaw's nobel prize winning biography of Hitler. He takes you down onto the streets of Vienna in 1910 and paints such a vivid picture you can almost smell the city.

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Thanks for the recommendation. I might pick it up, but I'm kind of trying to avoid books that might be depressing right now.

quote:

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Originally posted by Horemheb:

In terms of the other subject, one of the problems with modern liberalism is that we are obsessed with people's 'feelings.' some of us want to pass laws because we are affraid that we might offend someone.
Truth is snoozin that western civilization is superior to African culture is almost every way. In fact a case can be made that if African culture survives ( and that is open to some question) we will have to save it. The question is....save it for what?
We might be better off to bring as many of those people as we can into western culture. That is the who foundation of our policy in Iraq and elsewhere in the middle east. Realistically, all of them will not be saved but we can do as much as we can. That is the moral and pragmatic position in my view.

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I do understand what you are saying, but I personally think a large part of the problem in Africa is remnants of imperialism that tore the very fabric of their culture and people apart. If this had never happened, I think you would see a very different Africa today.

quote:

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Originally posted by everyday_angel:
APPLAUSE APPLAUSE APPLAUSE
Well said.

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Thanks!

quote:

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Originally posted by newcomer:
[QUOTE][b]kafir4 ever
Member
Posts: 43
Registered: Aug 2005
posted 30 August 2005 07:54 AM
...

Newcomer, ok I will stop.
I thought it was too good to be true! So ok, you'll stop what????????

Sorry, I forgot to post the source: http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/Forum2/HTML/007001-3.html

[This message has been edited by newcomer (edited 30 August 2005)

---

You're very good in tracking sources but never good in answering them

quote:

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Originally posted by JOSHUA:
You're very good in tracking sources but never good in answering them

[This message has been edited by JOSHUA (edited 30 August 2005).]

---

Your post makes no sense.

In a late October crackdown, state security police arrested and tortured a Christian couple from a Muslim background. Police also arrested and mistreated 20 other Egyptian citizens, many of whom are Christian converts. Authorities accused them of forging Christian identity papers for former Muslims.

By mid-November, 17 of the 22 were out on bail.

Police arrested the couple in Alexandria on October 18. Two days later, police transferred the two to central Cairo's El-Mosky police station, where they were beaten, denied food, and hung by their arms. Others arrested in October were reportedly beaten, tortured, or raped.

Egypt's constitution guarantees religious freedom. Christian citizens who want to convert to Islam are free to adopt Muslim names and change their official religious identities. But Muslims who become Christians often face arrest, torture, and threats. Islamic law demands that unrepentant apostates be executed.

Many converts have tried to change their religious status by bypassing government channels, leaving themselves open to the charge of falsifying official documents.

A group of former Muslims who have converted to Christianity issued an anonymous declaration from Cairo on October 26.

What part of my post didn't you understand smart. You remind me of the mindless shikhs who keep chanting every 4 am in the middle east, if they only know, playing a poker game would probably be more useful than waking up that early

smile for the picture!!!