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I wanna discuss here a very intersting topic for me at least, I had this conversation with kafir4ever about wether there is reason for this life or not, kafir thinks that god had made this life and he left it with no reason, he just made the life to show some point for himself .. he might correct me if I am wrong in that .. anyhow I argued that it is not that it is god that beyond everything and I think he is. Anyhow, I wanna consider the case that what if god had made this just for fun (I don't think this of god at all but let us go in the discussion a bit more) .. well thire might be a good argument her, one who might think this way he might have a good argument but let us see .. All this suffer, wars, hate and broken hearts just for fun .. do u think of this in god .. well in Quran has said what means that allah will punish disblievers for that they have thought bad of him .. I believe that this is a bad thought of god .. He made all of this just for fun ain't that bad thought of god or what ?? God had said also what means "if we "Allah" want to have fun we would do it in our own" .. this means that he wouldn't envolve any body else in that .. So actually religion is about thinking good of god that's what I believe, do u think that god has no pationate to his creation .. actually don't you think that god has no compation with us .. he is only playing with us .. well if this is your god he is not mine my god is the most merciful, he is the good and the abslute good, he is just the perfection .. that's my god that's how I think of him and that is the good thinking about god .. May god shows you the right way ISA.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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I believe in a kind and merciful God. He is so complex that we cannot begin to understand Him in more than the most basic terms allowed by our human hearts and brains.
I think we are all on this earth for a reason. Primarily to learn to be good. Good in the face of anything -- pain, loss, sorrow, even in the face of luxury and joy. Sometimes it is even harder to be a good person when you already have everything you want and need. *That* is a test/lesson as well.
When bad things happen, I don't think we know *why* it has happened. It could be God punishing someone. It could be God creating a horrible situation so that a greater good comes of it. All of it to me is too complex to understand.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
I was watching a documentary a couple of days ago about tribes in the amazon..tribes that have only be discovered a decade ago. Men, women and children are all naked, they have been living happily in the jungle for hundreds of years, they have no god, maybe some water deity of some sort, have not been taught anything by any prophet, messenger or missionary,never heard of abraham, jesus ,mohamed, budha or any other..
Where is your god? where are his messengers?
They follow tribal laws , good laws, instaured by human experience, by their forefathers, without any guidance from a supreme being . Do they steal?kill each other? commit any crimes? no. They live happily together as a tribe.
where is god? did he forget about them? too busy with sorting out the mess he started in the middle east with the string of prophets?
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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visited the other day the children's cancer ward in kasr el aini. little children, innocent children , some as young as 3 months , are dying there with cancer.
did your god forget them too? or did he intentionally allow them to be sick to teach some sort of wicked lesson to their parents? what have they done to deserve this, they have never committed any crime? what defensive explanation will you give me now? the "will" of god? what will?
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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Do you believe in the concept of *good.?* Even though it's not really tangible?
Is it so bad if people anthropomorphize the concept of good and call it God?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by primak: did your god forget them too? or did he intentionally allow them to be sick to teach some sort of wicked lesson to their parents?
The only thing I can think of when little children die is that they are perfect and have no lessons left in life to learn.
I have heard others say their premature deaths are to prevent them from sinning, but I would rather believe it is because they are perfect.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Do you really object to people developing their own code of morality based on the concept of God, or do you object more to its application and how it affects others (you)?
They are two different things.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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man doesn't need a god to develop his own code of morality..codes or morality exist before gods were invented , codes of morality are human, de , I would also think animals have codes of morality. Do you think man did not know that he should not kill before the 10 commmandments were "sent out" by yahve to moses ? or follow whatever codes of morality jesus or mohamed gave him?
How futile is a god that dictates to his creation what they should do..not eat pork? or crabs? or not drink wine? or not sleep with his wife when she has her period? or ways of adoring him and praying? condoning killing ( have you read the old testament? frightening!) or even threatening man with hell? or promising paradise?or proving he exists with ridiculous miracles?or , going back to our subject..means of punishing people, flogging???stoning? burning?? what on earth is this????how futile is that? if I had a god, he would certainly not be like that but I don't.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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I agree, man does not *need* a god to develop morals. But is it so bad to think there is a god?
I respect your right to not believe in God. We each have to find our own way through this world. If that works best for you, then great.
I just get the feeling you would prefer that *nobody* believe in God.
quote:Originally posted by primak: man doesn't need a god to develop his own code of morality..codes or morality exist before gods were invented , codes of morality are human, de , I would also think animals have codes of morality. Do you think man did not know that he should not kill before the 10 commmandments were "sent out" by yahve to moses ? or follow whatever codes of morality jesus or mohamed gave him?
How futile is a god that dictates to his creation what they should do..not eat pork? or crabs? or not drink wine? or not sleep with his wife when she has her period? or ways of adoring him and praying? condoning killing ( have you read the old testament? frightening!) or even threatening man with hell? or promising paradise?or proving he exists with ridiculous miracles?or , going back to our subject..means of punishing people, flogging???stoning? burning?? what on earth is this????how futile is that? if I had a god, he would certainly not be like that but I don't.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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I would prefer if people would question the nature and existence of god..and would not succomb to the social pressure or the psychological need that pushes them to belong to a certain group/religion.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene Roddenberry
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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This morning there was a knock at my door. When I answered the door I found a well groomed, nicely dressed couple. The man spoke first:
John: "Hi! I'm John, and this is Mary."
Mary: Hi! We're here to invite you to come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Pardon me?! What are you talking about? Who's Hank, and why would I want to kiss His ass?"
John: "If you kiss Hank's ass, He'll give you a million dollars; and if you don't, He'll kick the **** out of you."
Me: "What? Is this some sort of bizarre mob shake-down?"
John: "Hank is a billionaire philanthropist. Hank built this town. Hank owns this town. He can do whatever He wants, and what He wants is to give you a million dollars, but He can't until you kiss His ass."
Me: "That doesn't make any sense. Why..."
Mary: "Who are you to question Hank's gift? Don't you want a million dollars? Isn't it worth a little kiss on the ass?"
Me: "Well maybe, if it's legit, but..."
John: "Then come kiss Hank's ass with us."
Me: "Do you kiss Hank's ass often?"
Mary: "Oh yes, all the time..."
Me: "And has He given you a million dollars?"
John: "Well no. You don't actually get the money until you leave town."
Me: "So why don't you just leave town now?"
Mary: "You can't leave until Hank tells you to, or you don't get the money, and He kicks the **** out of you."
Me: "Do you know anyone who kissed Hank's ass, left town, and got the million dollars?"
John: "My mother kissed Hank's ass for years. She left town last year, and I'm sure she got the money."
Me: "Haven't you talked to her since then?"
John: "Of course not, Hank doesn't allow it."
Me: "So what makes you think He'll actually give you the money if you've never talked to anyone who got the money?"
Mary: "Well, He gives you a little bit before you leave. Maybe you'll get a raise, maybe you'll win a small lotto, maybe you'll just find a twenty-dollar bill on the street."
Me: "What's that got to do with Hank?"
John: "Hank has certain 'connections.'"
Me: "I'm sorry, but this sounds like some sort of bizarre con game."
John: "But it's a million dollars, can you really take the chance? And remember, if you don't kiss Hank's ass He'll kick the **** of you."
Me: "Maybe if I could see Hank, talk to Him, get the details straight from Him..."
Mary: "No one sees Hank, no one talks to Hank."
Me: "Then how do you kiss His ass?"
John: "Sometimes we just blow Him a kiss, and think of His ass. Other times we kiss Karl's ass, and he passes it on."
Me: "Who's Karl?"
Mary: "A friend of ours. He's the one who taught us all about kissing Hank's ass. All we had to do was take him out to dinner a few times."
Me: "And you just took his word for it when he said there was a Hank, that Hank wanted you to kiss His ass, and that Hank would reward you?"
John: "Oh no! Karl has a letter he got from Hank years ago explaining the whole thing. Here's a copy; see for yourself."
1. Kiss Hank's ass and He'll give you a million dollars when you leave town.
2. Use alcohol in moderation.
3. Kick the **** out of people who aren't like you.
4. Eat right.
5. Hank dictated this list Himself.
6. The moon is made of green cheese.
7. Everything Hank says is right.
8. Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.
9. Don't use alcohol.
10.Eat your wieners on buns, no condiments.
11.Kiss Hank's ass or He'll kick the **** out of you
Me: "This appears to be written on Karl's letterhead."
Mary: "Hank didn't have any paper."
Me: "I have a hunch that if we checked we'd find this is Karl's handwriting."
John: "Of course, Hank dictated it."
Me: "I thought you said no one gets to see Hank?"
Mary: "Not now, but years ago He would talk to some people."
Me: "I thought you said He was a philanthropist. What sort of philanthropist kicks the **** out of people just because they're different?"
Mary: "It's what Hank wants, and Hank's always right."
Me: "How do you figure that?"
Mary: "Item 7 says 'Everything Hank says is right.' That's good enough for me!"
Me: "Maybe your friend Karl just made the whole thing up."
John: "No way! Item 5 says 'Hank dictated this list himself.' Besides, item 2 says 'Use alcohol in moderation,' Item 4 says 'Eat right,' and item 8 says 'Wash your hands after going to the bathroom.' Everyone knows those things are right, so the rest must be true, too."
Me: "But 9 says 'Don't use alcohol.' which doesn't quite go with item 2, and 6 says 'The moon is made of green cheese,' which is just plain wrong."
John: "There's no contradiction between 9 and 2, 9 just clarifies 2. As far as 6 goes, you've never been to the moon, so you can't say for sure."
Me: "Scientists have pretty firmly established that the moon is made of rock..."
Mary: "But they don't know if the rock came from the Earth, or from out of space, so it could just as easily be green cheese."
Me: "I'm not really an expert, but I think the theory that the Moon was somehow 'captured' by the Earth has been discounted. Besides, not knowing where the rock came from doesn't make it cheese."
John: "Ha! You just admitted that scientists make mistakes, but we know Hank is always right!"
Me: "We do?"
Mary: "Of course we do, Item 7 says so."
Me: "You're saying Hank's always right because the list says so, the list is right because Hank dictated it, and we know that Hank dictated it because the list says so. That's circular logic, no different than saying 'Hank's right because He says He's right.'"
John: "Now you're getting it! It's so rewarding to see someone come around to Hank's way of thinking."
Me: "But...oh, never mind. What's the deal with wieners?"
Mary: She blushes.
John: "Wieners, in buns, no condiments. It's Hank's way. Anything else is wrong."
Me: "What if I don't have a bun?"
John: "No bun, no wiener. A wiener without a bun is wrong."
Me: "No relish? No Mustard?"
Mary: She looks positively stricken.
John: He's shouting. "There's no need for such language! Condiments of any kind are wrong!"
Me: "So a big pile of sauerkraut with some wieners chopped up in it would be out of the question?"
Mary: Sticks her fingers in her ears."I am not listening to this. La la la, la la, la la la."
John: "That's disgusting. Only some sort of evil deviant would eat that..."
Me: "It's good! I eat it all the time."
Mary: She faints.
John: He catches Mary. "Well, if I'd known you were one of those I wouldn't have wasted my time. When Hank kicks the **** out of you I'll be there, counting my money and laughing. I'll kiss Hank's ass for you, you bunless cut-wienered kraut-eater."
With this, John dragged Mary to their waiting car, and sped off.
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by primak: I would prefer if people would question the nature and existence of god..and would not succomb to the social pressure or the psychological need that pushes them to belong to a certain group/religion.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene Roddenberry
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Heh heh. I can totally deal with your being an athiest, but you want *me* to play a *game* about athiesm???? Isn't that pushing it a little far?
quote:Originally posted by primak: I found this game too, try it
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there's nothing wrong with going through the game, your faith will help you fight satan..
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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"I contend that we are both atheists. I just believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."
Good night
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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quote:Originally posted by primak: I would also think animals have codes of morality.
Hmm ... animals don't really have a free will, they basically follow their instincts; so how can they have a code of morality?
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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I usually don’t interfere in religious topics, because our faith and beliefs are different for each of us. And it’s also difficult for me to talk about this subject in a foreign language. But I will try (please, excuse my typing or grammatical errors)!
Primak said that gods were invented. I think that from the beginning of all times and things it was only one God out there. We don’t invented him, we only discovered him when the time was right for each of us, and we named him from our heart. Some of us had never discovered him (like those tribes), but does that mean he is not there for them?
He didn’t create us for his own amusement, we are his children and he loves us all. He created the Earth for us, so we can live a beautiful life in a wonderful place. In Christians beliefs, man was created in the 6th day. God had made him from dirt and bring him to life with his holy breath.
Adam was perfect as God was and ,since then, all human beings are perfect and pure at birth. But he also gave us our free will, so we can make our own choices during our life. As an infant and during the childhood you only make small mistakes, easily accepted by our Father. After that, we begin to make sins and learn one lesson over another (if we are lucky enough to discover them).
All the souls are descending from the Kingdom of Heaven with a well known and fully accepted mission. But inside the body they can’t guide us easily, because their voices are only whisperers and we don’t listen carefully. Our minds are to busy finding ways to satisfy our primary needs (the lowest one), so our soul it’s always tormented trying to fulfill his mission, too.
When a good equilibrium exists between the body, the mind and the soul then we can start exercising our free will without fear of making mistakes. When the human being is not in harmony, there you go: hate, wars, sorrow, death… Our actions make that happened, not God, because he will not interfere in our life for that.
He will help you if he’s asked, he will comfort you, he will heal your soul, like a carrying father, as he is. The sickness that sometimes appear is just a warning , a soft slap on your cheek, so you can realize that you made a mistake. He’s giving you a chance to repentance and if you don’t understand that, it’s your fault, not his.
He cry for us and he is in deep sorrow for all his children and, believe me, all that he want from us is to love each other as he love us. He is not demanding blind obedience and I think his set of rules are easy to follow and there were establish for our own good.
Well, this subject goes on and on, there are so many things you can say!. You don’t believe in God, ok, your choice, but do you believe in anything? Do you believe in love, peace, morality, kindness … then you believe in God, even if you don’t know that yet.
Do you feel lonely and abandoned sometimes, because you can see only one set of footprints behind you? It doesn’t mean that God is not there, those are his footprints, not yours, because he is carrying you in his arms.
Do you think we live in an ugly world, filled with misery and sorrow? Then try to change it a bit, starting with yourself! Is not necessarily for you to believe in God, because he believes in you! He said: “Knock on my door and I will open it for you. If i’m not in my home, search under a stone and I’ll be there, split a wooden log and you’ll find me or simply look into your heart and we will be together”.
Well this is only my humble opinion, I don’t know if it will answer to your questions. But I know one thing: "It is not how much you do, but how much love you put in the doing."
Posts: 1744 | From: Romania | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Sadeeqy: I usually don’t interfere in religious topics, because our faith and beliefs are different for each of us. And it’s also difficult for me to talk about this subject in a foreign language. But I will try (please, excuse my typing or grammatical errors)!
............ ...................
Well this is only my humble opinion, I don’t know if it will answer to your questions. But I know one thing: "It is not how much you do, but how much love you put in the doing."
that's one of the few posts that i'd like to read more than time. thank you sadeeqy Posts: 817 | From: Egypt | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by primak: I would prefer if people would question the nature and existence of god..and would not succomb to the social pressure or the psychological need that pushes them to belong to a certain group/religion.
"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." Gene Roddenberry
Same athiest mantra! They somehow think they are the only ones who used the God (who they don't believe in)given intellect to question things around them!
I have read for as many atheists who reject God out of absurd reasons as many of those who believe in God for un reasonable reasons but the difference is that Faith in God is part of our innate exactly like our moral values which we according to atheism developed it only to survive but they are not "good" in isolation because we made them! but in reality we do find them good in absloute way, but this doesn't ring a bell to the atheist?
Primak, you do have un reasonable FAITH because you BELIEVE this world came out of nothing without being able to prove how can something could come out of nothing.
Posts: 1732 | Registered: Jun 2004
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If I were to construct a God I would furnish Him with some way and qualities and characteristics which the Present lacks. He would not stoop to ask for any man's compliments, praises, flatteries; and He would be far above exacting them. I would have Him as self-respecting as the better sort of man in these regards. He would not be a merchant, a trader. He would not buy these things. He would not sell, or offer to sell, temporary benefits of the joys of eternity for the product called worship. I would have Him as dignified as the better sort of man in this regard. He would value no love but the love born of kindnesses conferred; not that born of benevolences contracted for. Repentance in a man's heart for a wrong done would cancel and annul that sin; and no verbal prayers for forgiveness be required or desired or expected of that man. In His Bible there would be no Unforgiveable Sin. He would recognize in Himself the Author and Inventor of Sin and Author and Inventor of the Vehicle and Appliances for its commission; and would place the whole responsibility where it would of right belong: upon Himself, the only Sinner. He would not be a jealous God -- a trait so small that even men despise it in each other. He would not boast. He would keep private His admirations of Himself; He would regard self-praise as unbecoming the dignity of his position. He would not have the spirit of vengeance in His heart. Then it would not issue from His lips. There would not be any hell -- except the one we live in from the cradle to the grave. There would not be any heaven -- the kind described in the world's Bibles. He would spend some of His eternities in trying to forgive Himself for making man unhappy when he could have made him happy with the same effort and he would spend the rest of them in studying astronomy. -- Mark Twain, Notebook
Posts: 1516 | From: Cairo | Registered: Oct 2001
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God has thousands of faces, and he appears to each individual according to their conjecture and their understanding. In whatever way one wishes to view God, then he appears in that way.
To the Jew and the Christian he manifests as Jehovah, to the Muslim as Allah, to the Budhist as Budha and so forth. God is One and there is no other, and if a person wishes to worship a piece of wood and call it "god" then "god" will manifest to him in that way.
From an Islamic point of view, when Moses went in search of firewood for his family, God came to him in his need and manifested as a bush on fire. In the case of Moses, God manifested as a "need", and it is so for every individual. If one finds out what one needs, then God will manifest there.
If one needs a private personal Jet plane, one is unlikely to get it, but if one prays for it, then God has manifested Himself in the mind of the petitioner in the way he understands.
When the "need" is great enough, then God always 'manifests'. He never deserts any of his creation whether they worship this or that "god" for he is the creator of everything physical as well as meta-physical and is even present in "idols" for he created those as well for the ones with little understanding. And he manifests in these idols according to the conjecture of the worshiper.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: God has thousands of faces, and he appears to each individual according to their conjecture and their understanding. In whatever way one wishes to view God, then he appears in that way.
To the Jew and the Christian he manifests as Jehovah, to the Muslim as Allah, to the Budhist as Budha and so forth. God is One and there is no other, and if a person wishes to worship a piece of wood and call it "god" then "god" will manifest to him in that way.
From an Islamic point of view, when Moses went in search of firewood for his family, God came to him in his need and manifested as a bush on fire. In the case of Moses, God manifested as a "need", and it is so for every individual. If one finds out what one needs, then God will manifest there.
If one needs a private personal Jet plane, one is unlikely to get it, but if one prays for it, then God has manifested Himself in the mind of the petitioner in the way he understands.
When the "need" is great enough, then God always 'manifests'. He never deserts any of his creation whether they worship this or that "god" for he is the creator of everything physical as well as meta-physical and is even present in "idols" for he created those as well for the ones with little understanding. And he manifests in these idols according to the conjecture of the worshiper.
Saith who Doubt on fire ..
people worship thousand of gods .. god is not an idea, you say that whom had created this exiestance doesn't exist .. what a doubt ...
God get to moses as a fire .. waw this what muslims says .. truely it amazing how people know about islam more than muslims themselves, in fact doubt in fire here knows about islam more than prophet Mohamed PBUH knows. thank you for the great information Doubt on fire
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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I think we complicate it so much, All what im sure of is that im very thankfull that GOD is ALLAH or GOD is GOD. We should work Hard & achieve the highest ranks not without missing our terms to do for God. One More thing, i would like to ask?what about every new borned child ? so innocent & clear, this child maybe later good or a bad person, however my point is that Allah created us on clean nativity, we tamper with it according to our weakness in ourselves, however my point is that god created us to work & pray. Why we complicate it!! why we worry!! why we try to look for mistaken salvations!
Posts: 11 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Do you believe in the concept of *good.?* Even though it's not really tangible?
Is it so bad if people anthropomorphize the concept of good and call it God?
Beleiving in 'good' should be the only true religion. Anthropomorphizing IS bad, it just leads to making God a personality with human characteristics including bad ones like favouritism (of race and gender), revenge, making petty rules, anger, violence etc. These are traits that in a human would be regarded as 'bad' but because they are believed to come from the supreme being, they are accepted as good (admittedly illogical and inexplicable). People submit through fear. They end up believing in 'right' (their own version) and lose sight of 'good'.
Posts: 1039 | From: Cairo | Registered: Sep 2002
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Bibo is no more a Muslim or he/she would not condemn others, for Muslims do NOT says that others are NOT Muslims. Remember that in your prayers Bibo.
Just because a person finds themselves on the first step of the ladder to their personal enlightenment, does not mean they have the right to condemn those who have had the appropriate Islamic teaching.
When I have a little more time, I will try and explain to you exactly what is meant by Moses and the Burning Bush from an Islamic point of view. Obviously, your teachers have not done this as they considered it too difficult for you to comprehend. It does take a certain amount of intelligence to understand, something evidently which you do not have at the moment. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Looks like all of a sudden, the empty cans have stopped making a noise! So, as promised, here is the relevant part of the Koran which Bibo has demeaned and ridiculed in the face of God. :
Koran XX,8sqq.
'Has thou heard tell of the story of Moses? When he saw a fire he said unto his family; Stay here, I have just perceived some fire. Peradventure I may bring you a brand thereof, or may find a direction in our way by aid of the fire. And when he was come near unto it, a voice called out to him saying: Oh Moses! verily I am thy Lord: put off thy sandals, thou are in the sacred valley of Tuwa....'
When God spoke to Moses he spoke in the "ignighted" form because Moses had been looking for fire and God appeard to him as the object of his desire. If God had not done this then Moses' actions would have recoiled against him. He would have withdrawn from God and God would have withdrawn from Moses.
It was through the fire - the object of the eye of his need, that the Divinity came to him in a way he did not recognise!
The lesson in this is that God often manifests to us in ways we do not recognise because we are desiring something else. Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Looks like all of a sudden, the empty cans have stopped making a noise! So, as promised, here is the relevant part of the Koran which Bibo has demeaned and ridiculed in the face of God. :
Koran XX,8sqq.
'Has thou heard tell of the story of Moses? When he saw a fire he said unto his family; Stay here, I have just perceived some fire. Peradventure I may bring you a brand thereof, or may find a direction in our way by aid of the fire. And when he was come near unto it, a voice called out to him saying: Oh Moses! verily I am thy Lord: put off thy sandals, thou are in the sacred valley of Tuwa....'
When God spoke to Moses he spoke in the "ignighted" form because Moses had been looking for fire and God appeard to him as the object of his desire. If God had not done this then Moses' actions would have recoiled against him. He would have withdrawn from God and God would have withdrawn from Moses.
It was through the fire - the object of the eye of his need, that the Divinity came to him in a way he did not recognise!
The lesson in this is that God often manifests to us in ways we do not recognise because we are desiring something else.
I don't have anything against you Doubtfire, anyhow the verse is not like what you have described at all, I dunno wether you are a muslim or not but I thought you're not for that defenition, because muslims do not think of god as a reshaped thing, he is like no other thing and that's it .. sorry for calling you doubt on fire but I was very pissed
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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There are various degrees or levels of interpreting the Koran, there is the level of the novice which is the "literal" interpretation. This could be described as the religion of the babes. As one develops more knowledge of God, then the interpretations become more mystical and meaningful.
However, the masses are kept down at the basic level of literal interpretation as it enables the clergy to have more control over the people. This is necessary in a religion that seeks to be political. It enables the people to "worship" God and the State as a matter of slavish moral duty,(and keeps them in control that way ) but it rather eclipses the real message of the Koran which is about spiritual enlightenment and salvation.
However there are a few of us who seek spiritual enlightenment, and have left behind the rules of moral servitude to the state religion and its antiquated literalist method of brainwashing the gullible and simple-minded.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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The Encyclopedia of Religion and Ethics says this:
The origin of this (Allah) goes back to PRE-Muslim times. Allah is NOT a common name meaning "God" (or a "god"), and the Muslim must use another word or form if he wishes to indicate any other than his own peculiar deity.
Allah was a pre-existing god. He was well known to Muhammad's Quraysh tribe. Scholars quickly point out that Allah was one of the names used for the MOON god who was married to the sun goddess. Together they produced three goddesses who were called "the daughters of Allah. Their names were Al-Lat, Al-Uzza and Manat. These were considered high gods--at the top of the plethora of Arabian deities. Muhammad's father's literal Arabic name was Abd-Allah. His uncle's name was Obied-Allah. His family was devoted to the moon god for at least two generations before Muhammad. The Arabian pagans prayed towards Mecca because that is where their idols/gods were sitting. Since Allah was one of the idols in the Kabah it only made sense to turn toward their god and pray. Praying toward Mecca continues to this day.
Allah is clearly not the God of the Bible. He is an Arabian idol that sat in the Kabah with a bunch of other idols. The pagans prayed in the direction of Mecca because that is where their gods (including Allah) resided heaped on top of each other in the Kabah. This is not news to educated Muslims, they generally understand this point. Allah is the moon god, that's probably why there is the crescent moon and star on the Muslim flag.
In conclusion, the Quran took Allah from the existing Arabic paganism and superimposed it on top of the God of the Bible. A dumb idol that can neither hear, nor speak, nor think.
"Well," you might say, "what about Arabic Bibles that say, 'Allah' for the word God?"
"Well," I would say, "the missionaries got intimidated by Arabs to use Allah instead of the Arabic word of God." I also might say, "Many missionaries are turning to dynamic equivalency which means that they do not translate word for word but rather look for similar ideas to convey meaning. The King James is the only Bible that does word for word translation--that's fcalled formal equivalency."
Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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It is strange that people learn us our history, Fran knows better, well Mr. Fran you don't know that pre-islam the arabs where believeing in one and only god until at some time a well known person I don't remember the name started making them worship those stones, but they believe that the god "Allah" is aboce those stones and that they only are a mean of deliverance to god "Allah" and there was no statue for god the only god Mr.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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you don't read the koran well, god had said that he is like no other in the koran, "there is nothin alike him in the earths or heavens", also god had said that he never can communicate to people except through a messenger or if they have a barrier between them this also mentioned in koran I can get you the exact versus later
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Well, on researching the name, I have to agree with Fran, that Allah is the worship of three pagan mythological figures. Many people do in fact regard it as a pagan religion, and it seems that they are indeed right, on the face of it.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I believe in a kind and merciful God.
So why you believe in Muhammad's God?
Imam Khomeni said it in 1981 to Muslim umma:
"Quran says; kill, imprison!
Why are you only clinging to those parts that talk about mercy?
Mercy is against God.
We need a Khalifa who would chop hands, cut throat, stone people
In the same way that the messenger of God used to chop hands, cut throats, and stone people". --- Apostle has said:
“The Prophet said, ‘If a Muslim discards his religion, kill him.”
Ishaq:550 “The reason that Allah’s Messenger ordered Abdullash Bin Sarh slain was because he had become a Muslim and used to write down Qur’an Revelation. Then he apostatized (rejected Islam) after becoming suspicious of some verses which prophet changed after his suggestions.”
Ishaq:551 The Messenger ordered Miqyas’ assassination because he became a renegade by rejecting Islam.”
Bukhari, 5-59-632 Once Muadh paid a visit to Abu Musa and saw a chained man. Muadh asked, "What is this?" Abu Musa said, "(He was) a Jew who embraced Islam and has now turned apostate." Muadh said, "I will surely chop off his neck!"
“The Prophet said, “burn all those who had not left their houses for the prayer, burning them alive inside their homes.” Bukhari: 1.11.617
Bukhari:V4B52N260 “Ali burnt some apostates publicly’
Ishaq:316 “Following Badr, Muhammad sent a number of raiders with orders to capture some of the Meccans and burn them alive.”
Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 259: Allah's Apostle sent us in a mission and said, "If you find so-and-so and so-and-so, burn both of them with fire"
Bukhari Volume 1, Book 4, Number 234: Narrated Abu Qilaba: He then ordered to cut their hands and feet (and it was done), and their eyes were branded with heated pieces of iron, They were put in 'Al-Harra' and when they asked for water, no water was given to them."
Tabari VIII:122/Ishaq:515 “The Prophet gave orders concerning Kinanah to Zubayr, saying, ‘Torture him until you root out and extract what he has. So Zubayr kindled a fire on Kinanah’s chest, twirling it with his firestick until Kinanah was near death. Then the Messenger gave him to Maslamah, who beheaded him.”
Tabari VIII:96 .” Zyad tied her legs with rope and then tied her between two camels until they split her in two. She was a very old woman”
Ishaq:595 “The Apostle said, ‘Get him away from me and cut off his tongue.”
Ishaq:312 “Umar said to the Apostle, ‘Let me pull out Suhayl’s two front teeth. That way his tongue will stick out “”
Posts: 524 | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: also god had said that he never can communicate to people except through a messenger
Just curious ... where did you get this idea from?
Quran Dalia, Quran
Asshura, 51 : Yusuf Ali's trans, It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.
Pickthal's trans, And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Mrs. Doubtfire: Well, on researching the name, I have to agree with Fran, that Allah is the worship of three pagan mythological figures. Many people do in fact regard it as a pagan religion, and it seems that they are indeed right, on the face of it.
you are amazing, and why should I believe you or anybody here doubt on fire .. because u haven't opened a book and all your information comes fom the internet or because you know better for some mysterious reason .. like Mr. fran. Or may be you are the mentor of mankind but I doubt that you have the intellegence to guide yourself
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: also god had said that he never can communicate to people except through a messenger
Just curious ... where did you get this idea from?
Quran Dalia, Quran
Asshura, 51 : Yusuf Ali's trans, It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.
Pickthal's trans, And it was not (vouchsafed) to any mortal that Allah should speak to him unless (it be) by revelation or from behind a veil, or (that) He sendeth a messenger to reveal what He will by His leave. Lo! He is Exalted, Wise.
First of all, could you please post the correct numbers of the verses, so I can look them up. 26:51 is a completely different verse from the one you posted.
I'm a bit confused, are you claiming God does not communicate with us directly? I always thought the direct relationship between God and human being is an integral part of Islam, now you're telling me it's not and people can only communicate with God through the messenger, i.e. through another human being? How can that be if God is supposedly omnipresent and ubiquitous – a fact which is mentioned in the Qur'an many times?
When My servants ask you about Me, I am always near. I answer their prayers when they pray to Me. The people shall respond to Me and believe in Me, in order to be guided. (2:186)
I thought the prophet's function was to deliver the message, not to mediate between God and human beings eternally. What do you do when you pray? Are you communicating with God directly or not? How does the messenger come into this?
It always find it strange when Christians say they can only communicate with God through Jesus, but you're basically saying the same thing here.
Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Dalia, you got it wrong it is not 26 "ashor'aa'"the peots"" it is assoura "consultation" "42".
yeah we communicate directly to god, you didn't get it wrong but this verse we is talking about a completely different situation it defines the way he communicate to his creatures even the prophets or angels, he never communicated to any of them directly like an eye to eye. i.e. no one had seen god as we see each other. I am only answering what doubt on fire said when he claims that god can be in anything. Did you got it?
We as muslim don't communicate to god through anything and the verse didnt state this at all, am I clear here, I don't know from where did u got this idea in fact the verse u stated is completely opposed to the idea. Again in islam We don't have to go to anyone to ask god in fact islam came to forbid this and it is considered whom done this that he had disbelieved in god and he has made a very big sin, no one is between any person and god, the verse I stated is completely different, please confirm that you got the meaning.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: Dalia, you got it wrong it is not 26 "ashor'aa'"the peots"" it is assoura "consultation" "42".
Huh? I got it wrong? You were the one who wrote "Asshura". But never mind, transcriptions are always a bit tricky.
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: We as muslim don't communicate to god through anything and the verse didnt state this at all, am I clear here, I don't know from where did u got this idea
Bibo, I think you don't understand my posts ... I don't really know how to write any clearer. What do you mean by "from where did you get this idea"??? I was asking YOU where YOU got this idea from. I said in my earlier post:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia:
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: also god had said that he never can communicate to people except through a messenger
Just curious ... where did you get this idea from?
...
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: in fact the verse u stated is completely opposed to the idea.
Exactly. That's why I posted it!!!
quote: Again in islam We don't have to go to anyone to ask god in fact islam came to forbid this and it is considered whom done this that he had disbelieved in god and he has made a very big sin, no one is between any person and god
This is exactly the point I was trying to make. Not sure why you chose to misinterpret my post.
quote: please confirm that you got the meaning.
I explained in my previous post how I understand the concept of communication between human being and God. From what I see our opinions on this issue are very similar, so I'm not sure what you want me to confirm. You very obviously did not understand what I wrote earlier. Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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You got it right, I only wanted to confirm that your idea about the communication between human and god is a direct communication which is absolutely the same as yours and the same as the verse in the second post of yours say. However, the communication from god to any of his creatures "including human or angels" is not an eye to eye communication, i.e. no body have ever seen god eye to eye .. this what the second verse state "except by inspiration, or from behind a veil (boundary), or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's "
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: However, the communication from god to any of his creatures "including human or angels" is not an eye to eye communication, i.e. no body have ever seen god eye to eye .. this what the second verse state "except through a veil (boundary)"
Of course God doesn't speak to you "eye to eye" – that would mean that God has eyes – or a mouth, for that matter. I think the problem is that you can't use expressions that apply to human beings to attributes suscribed to a supreme being. Communication can have many forms, not just the ones we humans normally use, i.e. speaking, reading or listening, so to me the expression "from behind a veil" makes perfect sense.
It does not mean, however, that God communicates with us only through a messenger and that was my original point. Posts: 2334 | Registered: Aug 2002
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Just to clarify this point, Muslims communicate by submission to God directly, Christians communicate with God through Jesus Christ. This means that Christians communicate through the "body" of Christ. The reasons why Christians do this and Muslims do not, is that Christians believe that God rules the world THROUGH the world or through the body in fact.
Depending on your intellect and knowledge of religions and how they work you may or may not understand this principle. I would also add that the Koran also makes the point quite clear that God (or Allah) does in fact rule the world through the world. As I said, you may not understand this as it is a question of intellect which you may not have.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by bibo1978: However, the communication from god to any of his creatures "including human or angels" is not an eye to eye communication, i.e. no body have ever seen god eye to eye .. this what the second verse state "except through a veil (boundary)"
Of course God doesn't speak to you "eye to eye" – that would mean that God has eyes – or a mouth, for that matter. I think the problem is that you can't use expressions that apply to human beings to attributes suscribed to a supreme being. Communication can have many forms, not just the ones we humans normally use, i.e. speaking, reading or listening, so to me the expression "from behind a veil" makes perfect sense.
It does not mean, however, that God communicates with us only through a messenger and that was my original point.
well, no one other than a messanger can say that he got information "waheee" from god yet god can guide us all over our life by his wise ways, I believe that there was a hadeeth once I read and it states that the only thing left from prophethood is a 'roo'ya" (some dreams are called in arabic "roo'ya"). yet we always can communicate directly to Allah.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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To expect the universe to be benevolent all the time is to expect that one could always win in a game of pure chance.
Posts: 18 | From: Wherever i may roam | Registered: Dec 2002
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Thoughts about God...God is everything what is good...all things which are not good are our imperfection like human bean. God means a lot of faith...and without faith we are nothing. This is not an apologize of one or other religion...this is our hope that everything will be fine in the future. (my english could be broken )
Posts: 1414 | From: far away | Registered: Sep 2004
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