posted
It is still Islam in Europe but do you think it could be in the future islamic Europe?
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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posted
No, the European Union is soon to start puting restriction and a ceiling on Muslim immigration and start sending them back.
Posts: 62 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rameses the Grea: No, the European Union is soon to start puting restriction and a ceiling on Muslim immigration and start sending them back.
But can somebody send people out just like that? If they just live in peace their life?
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rameses the Grea: No, the European Union is soon to start puting restriction and a ceiling on Muslim immigration and start sending them back.
But can somebody send people out just like that? If they just live in peace their life?
posted
DO U REALLY BELIVE THAT EUROPE ONE DAY TURN TO ISLAM?????? MOST OF EUROPEANS SURE ARE CHRISTIAN IN PAPERS(NOT BELIVERS) SO I DONT THINK SO THEY WALK TO THIS HARD RELIGION PATH OF ISLAM AND DONT FORGET THEY ENJOY THEIR BEER IN THE WEEKENDS WHEN THEY BRBQUE THE PORK CHOPS
Posts: 46 | From: greece | Registered: Sep 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Rameses the Grea: No, the European Union is soon to start puting restriction and a ceiling on Muslim immigration and start sending them back.
But can somebody send people out just like that? If they just live in peace their life?
Yes they can!
You sound like the name u have ancient !!
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by may day: DO U REALLY BELIVE THAT EUROPE ONE DAY TURN TO ISLAM?????? MOST OF EUROPEANS SURE ARE CHRISTIAN IN PAPERS(NOT BELIVERS) SO I DONT THINK SO THEY WALK TO THIS HARD RELIGION PATH OF ISLAM AND DONT FORGET THEY ENJOY THEIR BEER IN THE WEEKENDS WHEN THEY BRBQUE THE PORK CHOPS
It's not what I believe but the fact is that muslims are coming to Europe or were born already in Europe to a muslim parents they just slowly increase all Europe while european population is dying out!
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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posted
British citizenship has been granted to nearly one million foreign nationals since Labour and Tony Blair came to power in 1997. Grants of citizenship have quadrupled under the present Government. This is a direct result of their 'no limits' immigration policy.
More white families are moving from London to the regions while many immigrants arrive in the capital from overseas. Migrationwatch said that the change in 10 years had been "extraordinarily rapid'" and "unprecedented." Whites will soon become a minority in Birmingham and other major British cities, posing a "critical" challenge to social stability, Britain's race relations watchdog warned. Statistics showed that white and ethnic minority communities were becoming increasingly segregated. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/02/10/nmig10.xml
posted
"Asian youths," a British euphemism for Pakistanis and Muslims from South Asia, in parts of Oldham are trying to create no-go areas for white people. One of them told: "There are signs all around saying whites enter at your risk. It's a matter of revenge." http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/reports/archive/politics/oldham1.shtml
posted
It would be interesting to see the moderate Muslim leaders who profess loyalty to the British crown respond to this on Islamic grounds. But they almost certainly won't.
"I believe that one day honest Muslims in the United Kingdom will, God willing, turn it into "Islamistan," like what the first Muslims did in Eritrea and Indonesia. The great dream of Islam will come true. Muslims dream to see flags that read: "There is no god but Allah" fluttering in the wind on top of Big Ben and the House of Commons, God willing."Posts: 223 | Registered: Jul 2006
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posted
Omar Bakri, has long derided the British state. But in the meantime, can't the dirty kuffar help out a guy in trouble?
Now, now, Omar. Shouldn't you stay in Lebanon to help direct the jihad against the Zionist Entity?
"Banned cleric barred from rescue ship"
Exiled radical Islamic preacher Omar Bakri was turned away from a Royal Navy ship evacuating Britons from war-torn Beirut, it emerged today.
The Muslim cleric, who left Britain for Lebanon abruptly in August last year, tried to board a British ship yesterday. He also claimed he wrote to the British embassy asking to be allowed to back on "humanitarian grounds".
posted
I have a feeling europe will get taken over by muslims like the nazis did, and I'll have to come over to europe in a apatchee helicopter, and overthrow the muslim hord..like we had to do with the nazis...
Posts: 1172 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by queensali: Assalam Alaikum,
ONLY ALLAH KNOWS ....IF EUROPE WILL BE ISLAMIC OR NOT !!!! BUT MY WISH IS -- TO BE AND I HOPE ONE DAY IN FUTURE INSHALLAH -- WILL BE .....
SALAM , SALIMA
But can you really imagine if this will happened how it's going to change your now free life that you have as a muslim's living in Poland because you live in democracy?
If you are so for Islam why are you staying in democratic state and don't you go to some islamic country?
Why are muslims coming to Europe/USA if they don't like how people live there?Maybe because they know they can have a better life and after some time they have spent there they claim to have special rights in democratic country?
Isn't it stupid?
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by queensali: Assalam Alaikum,
ONLY ALLAH KNOWS ....IF EUROPE WILL BE ISLAMIC OR NOT !!!! BUT MY WISH IS -- TO BE AND I HOPE ONE DAY IN FUTURE INSHALLAH -- WILL BE .....
SALAM , SALIMA
But can you really imagine if this will happened how it's going to change your now free life that you have as a muslim's living in Poland because you live in democracy?
If you are so for Islam why are you staying in democratic state and don't you go to some islamic country?
Why are muslims coming to Europe/USA if they don't like how people live there?Maybe because they know they can have a better life and after some time they have spent there they claim to have special rights in democratic country?
Isn't it stupid?
because muslims goal is one ummah, one world under islam...thats why they are comeing to the west....
that and the fact that preatty much all the countries under islam suck to live in..unless of course you are :
1.under the, no brainer, of oil wealth 2.a dictator or one of his goons
Posts: 1172 | Registered: Apr 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Marcella: And what reason they have?
in germany some politicians from bavaria i guess are currently debating whether foreigners who have been criminal in the past (not once but several times) should be sent back to their homelands.actually this already happens in germany now, but they are debating about whether the immigrants should be sent back faster, earlier.
judging from what i experience in this country i would say that, if not the majority, then at least a high percentage of those people would be muslims/ from africa. no offense meant!
so the reason in this case would be crime.
Posts: 457 | From: Any Questions? | Registered: Aug 2005
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posted
I see German people start afraid from immigrants??? How its possible?? Germany - is so strong country -- so u just telling us that Germany havent power to keep them inside of the country??
Hmm...so strange!!! But can I remind you --- why and for what most of immigrants came to Germany from long time ago? A lot of Turkish people came to Germany , I think they started from 1970, so where have been that time German people??? Why you didnt take out them from the begining!!!
Just right now - u dont need them??? Becuase what??? Salima
Posts: 66 | From: Poland - Warsaw | Registered: Jun 2006
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In this short, intermittently provocative fable, first published in Arabic in 1983, the Nobel Prize-winning Egyptian author of the Cairo Trilogy ponders the question: What is the best way to organize a society? Betrayed by his sweetheart, young Ibn Fattouma of ``the land of Islam'' begins a journey in search of wisdom. In Mashriq, whose citizens go naked and worship the moon, he marries Arousa, a pagan woman. Thrown out of Mashriq for trying to bring up his son as a Muslim, he next stops in Haira, a land whose bloody king is worshiped as God. Ibn Fattouma escapes imprisonment for Halba, where all religions are welcomed and Muslim homosexuals peacefully demonstrate for gay rights. There he marries a Muslim female pediatrician who teaches him the value of an Islam ``of independent judgment.'' Next the hero visits Aman, a communist state with full employment but no personal freedoms. He never reaches his ultimate goal, Gebel, land of perfection. Mahfouz's pithy parable mocks the hypocrisy of nations that wage war and maintain empire in the name of brotherhood and freedom. (Sept.)
Not my own words, but the publisher stated it well.
Really people need to read this book. Its the best I have read so far from an Egyptian author. Its pure brillance and truly states what I had stated above.
Posts: 991 | From: My daughter is a stalker | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by queensali: I see German people start afraid from immigrants??? How its possible??
you see Salima, in my opinion the germans are, when it comes to immigrants, much more doubting, distrustful and sceptical than other peoples, e.g. the french or the english (let alone the americans!). i don't know why. of course there are exceptions.
so the germans don't START being "afraid" of the immigrants, they always have been! this has got nothing to do with what the bavarian politicians are currently debating about though!
quote:Originally posted by queensali: [QB Germany - is so strong country -- so u just telling us that Germany havent power to keep them inside of the country?? [/QB]
?? they do have the power, yes, but the politicians are debating about whether criminal immigrants should leave the country or not!
in other words: they do have the power, but they don't want the immigrants! (ONLY those who have proven to be CRIMINAL SEVERAL times, please notice that.)
quote:Originally posted by queensali: But can I remind you --- why and for what most of immigrants came to Germany from long time ago? A lot of Turkish people came to Germany , I think they started from 1970, so where have been that time German people??? Why you didnt take out them from the begining!!!
you are right, immigration by the turkish in germany started decades ago. in fact, both turkish and italians came because we needed people to work here, the were many available jobs. and many of the turkish and italian didn't find any work in their homelands, so they came here.
so: whom should we have taken out then? they were starting to come to germany, and we longed for them!
quote:Originally posted by queensali: Just right now - u dont need them??? Becuase what???
i don't know for sure, but i guess IN THEORY we wouldn't need them now, as unemployment is quite high...
but i don't even want to talk like that... i mean there are a lot of immigrants whose families have lived in germany for ages and ages, it's their homeland, some of the turkish teenagers don't even speak the turkish language anymore!
german policy is not debating about whether to make them ALL go back, just the criminal ones, which is actually a logical thing. Posts: 457 | From: Any Questions? | Registered: Aug 2005
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Has Multicultural tolerance helped create a parallel society in the heart of Europe?
When a broader German public began concerning itself with the parallel Muslim world arising in its midst, it was primarily thanks to three female authors, three rebellious Muslim musketeers: Seyran Ates, author of The Great Journey into the Fire; Necla Kelek (The Foreign Bride); and Serao Cileli (We are Your Daughters, not your Honor). They each had to risk much for their freedom; two of them narrowly escaped Hatun Surucu's fate, a woman murdered by her brothers on February 7, 2005.
The books of the three Muslim dissidents now tell us what Germans like me did not care to know. What they report seems almost unbelievable. They describe an everyday life of oppression, isolation, imprisonment and brutal corporal punishment for Muslim women and girls in Germany, a situation for which there is only one word: slavery.
Ates estimates that perhaps half of young Turkish women living in Germany are forced into marriage every year. In the wake of these marriages often come violence and rape; the bride has no choice but to fulfill the duties of the marriage arranged by her parents and her in-laws. One side effect is the psychological violation of the men involved: men are likewise forbidden to marry whom they want.
Heavily veiled women wearing long coats even in summer are becoming an increasingly familiar sight in German Muslim neighborhoods. According to Kelek's research, they are mostly under-age girls who have been bought - often for a handsome payment - in the Turkish heartland villages of Anatolia by mothers whose sons in Germany are ready to marry. ''With every new imported bride'', Kelek says, ''the parallel society grows''.
During 50 years of continuing immigration, the Germans, deluded themselves that Germany was not a country of immigrants.
The first Muslim immigrants came without their families. These were people who wanted their families to join them, people who after a long, hard working life wanted to spend their remaining years in Germany, people who wished to provide their children with an education and a better future in that country.
A result was the rise of a Muslim middle class - contributing around 39 billion euros annually to the gross national product and billions to the national pension funds. But as the German economic miracle came to an end, the most important condition of this precarious idyll changed.
More and more Turks and Kurds moved to Germany, in accord with a ruling of reuniting families. And these parents, wives , husbands and children took their traditional lifestyle onto the German streets. Whereas during the first years of immigration, Turkish women wore western clothing, they now appeared in long flowery skirts and tightl bound head scarves.
Growing unemployment in Germany (now 4.8 million, 12% of work force) hit the Muslim immigrants doubly hard. Those with no work and no future were looked after by the mosques, which increasingly became the most important place of communication.
German immigration policies (and liberal multiculturalism) are only one side of the problem. The other side is the active refusal of many in the Muslim community to integrate. It is an illusion to believe that a German French or Dutch passport and full rights of citizenship are enough to make all Muslims loyal citizens. ''The attacks in London'', Ates says, ''were in the eyes of many Muslims a successful slap in the face to the Western community. The next perpetrators will be children of the third and fourth immigrant generation who- under the eyes for well meaning politicians- will be brought up from birth to hate western society''. ''It is only a question of time'', Ates says, ''before Berlin experiences attacks like those in London and Madrid''. When we spoke the riots in France had not yet happened.
''What I am asking of the Germans'', Kelek says, ''is nothing more and nothing less than equal treatment. I am entitled to the same rights as any German woman.
It is a perversion when, out of respect for the otherness of a different culture, Germans stand aside and accept the fact that Muslim women in Germany are being subjected to an archaic code of honor that flouts the fundamental human rights to dignity and individual freedom. It has simply to do with humanity, with the protection of basic human and civil rights for all citizens of all ethnic backgrounds.''
The fact is that disregards for women's rights - especially the right to sexual self-determination - is an integral component of almost all Islamic societies, including those in the west. Unless this issue is solved, with a corresponding reform of Islam as practiced in the West, there will never be a successful acculturation. Islam needs something like an Enlightenment; and only by sticking hard to their own Enlightenment, with its separation of religion and state, can the Western democracies persuade their Muslim residents that human rights are universally valid. Perhaps this would lead to the reforms necessary for integration to succeed. ''We Western Muslim women'', Ates says, ''will set off the reform of traditional Islam, because we are its victims.''
Peter Schneider, New York Times Magazine, December 4, 2005
Germany's Muslims see themselves as part of many different social, ethnic and religious communities, says Riem Spielhaus. That means there are many hurdles to be overcome before all the various Muslim organisations can come together into a single organisation
The current situation in Germany seems paradoxical. While both government institutions and Muslim organisations say they would like to begin a dialogue, the two sides still fail to get together.
In recent weeks, articles in the press have shown that the various Muslim organisations in Germany represent between them fewer than half the country's three million Muslims. With this statistic behind them, they can scarcely justify their claim to be the appropriate people for the government to talk to about Islam.
No representatives for the silent majority
These organisations do not represent the "silent majority" of Muslims. Practising Muslims demand equal treatment with the churches and the Jewish community and the right to speak to the government on the official level, but their demands are rejected on the grounds that they do not represent all three million Muslims. In rejecting their demands for this reason, the assumption is being made that all the Muslims belong to a single community of interests.
Assumptions about definitions of "Muslim identity" which are based on origin and not on religious conviction or religious practice need to be called into question.
According to the explanatory information published with the latest official estimate of the number of Muslims in Germany in 2000, the figure of between 2.8 and 3.2 million is based on the numbers coming from countries with mainly Muslim populations. The figures, in other words, are based on immigration statistics.
That means that what is decisive is the family or ethnic group into which one is born and not the religion or philosophical view of the world one has decided to adopt. In this way, "Muslim" describes a cultural-religious background which may have a greater or lesser influence on an individual's religious practice and way of life.
But when the authorities demand a single organisation to represent "the Muslims," the term is understood as meaning people who adhere to a certain religion. That is based on an assumption about religious affiliation which does not take account of the variety of interpretations of Islam, the possibility of conversion, changes in culture or even the rejection of religion.
Muslims as a coherent group
In public discourse, "Muslims" are represented increasingly as a coherent group whose behaviour is primarily based on the religion of Islam. Increasingly all people with a Muslim background are referred to as a single group and it is assumed that Islam plays the decisive role in their lives.
This can be seen in the current debates on forced marriages, "honour killings," and the poor educational achievement of young people with a Muslim background.
Immigrants from countries with Muslim majorities have been perceived for some time in almost all relevant contexts as "Muslims," and thus defined by their assumed beliefs. The complex causes which can lead to problems or even conflicts are often simplified and reduced to "Muslim identity." That prevents a clear view of how to solve the problems.
It is not just a matter of describing existing problems; there is a need to solve them on the basis of clear analysis. And it is not enough to find reasons in Islam. A variety of strategies is needed to bring about complete integration.
If people were to reject their Islamic religion it would by no means solve most of the existing problems. The assumption that such a step would help changes nothing in the social problems of the generation growing up in the German population nor would it would help the situation of disadvantaged women.
Rather - and the German Chancellor has recognised this with her initiative in calling an "Islam summit" - the lines should not be drawn between Muslims and non-Muslims. Instead all those who seek to show commitment to the interests of society as a whole need to be brought together, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.
They should include all those working for better integration and for a better future for young people, those trying to stop young people from drifting into nihilist extremism, and those trying to prevent domestic violence.
The more organisations involved in this process the better. In addition, the participation of a wide variety of Muslim civil society initiatives can only be helpful. But the integration of people with a Muslim background - whether practising or not - can only succeed when civil society organisations and parties are open to them, and their social commitment is accepted and taken seriously.
The politicians are looking for someone to talk to
The demand for just one organisation with whom state-level authorities can speak has clear pragmatic reasons. The states in Germany - and not the federal government - are responsible for relations with religious organisations and there is a need for clarity on issues relating to the financial support of religious life, or matters of religious practice, or the representation of Muslims on ceremonial occasions. This clarity has so far been missing.
Currently it can happen that, in the middle of talks with one Muslim organisation on an issue like the introduction of Muslim religious education in schools, a competing organisation may turn up, demanding its own right to offer religious education.
The same applies to ceremonial events to which state or federal government may wish to invite the representatives of the largest religious groups in the country. If one person is selected to represent the Protestants, another the Catholics and a third the Jews, it is scarcely practical for the Muslims to have the large number of representatives which would match their religious and ethnic diversity.
If Muslims want to be treated equally with the Jewish and Christian communities, their organisations will have to be professional, permanent, transparent in their decision-making processes, and unified.
A number of Muslim umbrella organisations have recognised this fact, and, since February 2005, they have been discussing the establishment of a national representative body for Muslims.
They are trying to do what has been attempted with more or less success in some cases at the state level, with organisations in Hamburg, Lower Saxony and Hesse. The current plans are for a federal structure, starting from local level and moving up to state to federal level, with elections in every participating mosque.
All the same, a representative organisation for religious matters can only speak for those people with a Muslim background who consider themselves to be faithful Muslims and, in addition, consider such a representation to be of value.
It is estimated that no more than thirty percent of the three million people with Muslim backgrounds who live in Germany visit the mosque regularly. Perhaps the other 70% prefer to join choirs or sport-clubs and see themselves better represented by Amnesty International, German parties, women's groups or migrants' associations, than through any religious organisation.
Even practicing Muslims are in many ways too heterogeneous for there to be any basis for cooperation which is more than the relatively abstract concept of the world Muslim community (the umma).
They come from over sixty countries, they have different ethnic backgrounds, live under a wide variety of socio-economic conditions and have widely differing educational levels.
It will be very difficult to achieve any common grouping under these circumstances, but bridges will have to be built across cultural, linguistic and not least theological barriers. Just as in the case of European integration, it is a matter of unity in diversity.
posted
What do you mean? I think people have clear minds enough not to make islamic Europe.
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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posted
What's wrong with islamic europe?? what will change? if european people want to be, what is the probelm?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Living in accordance to religious rules is nothing that you can make for everybody.Do you remember this:"Will not be of no coercion" It's only up to everyone.
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by mike rozier: I have a feeling europe will get taken over by muslims like the nazis did, and I'll have to come over to europe in a apatchee helicopter, and overthrow the muslim hord..like we had to do with the nazis...
exactly what goes around comes around jews become nazis no problem im wait for you ,no worried there ,id give u a fight any day im always handling a AK47.
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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posted
from easy legislations to more strict legislations , I think it wont be difficult and people will get used to it. Nothing dangerous will occur. But, I think the crime rate will be incredibly deduced. what's ur opinion?
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
No I don't think so. We love what we have(sometimes)and we don't want to change it for some religious rules.As I said before this only your personal choice,religion I mean.You can't say how people supposed to live. In accordance to religion.
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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posted
You are talking with the word " we" . if the majority of the european want it, none can change it.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
So there is no majority.And the few people who become a muslim has their right to leave and go to some islamic country if they don't like it in our free Europe,right?
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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posted
No islam makes people live under religious rules(again only your personally choice) and there are no the same rights for everybody as are in democracy.
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Every country is doing that where you can find islam's rules.Not following God's words is not what all people want and if so it's what you'll choose at home not for all people.
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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I think Only Suadi Arabia is doing this, so, God makes it one of the most rich country in the word.
In my opinion, Saudi forcibly imposes its own version of Islam on the people, many don't get to practice in the way they see fit. Or it's downright oppressive for women. e.g., why can't women drive a car? I wouldn't hold KSA up as a model of Islam..
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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I think Only Suadi Arabia is doing this, so, God makes it one of the most rich country in the word.
In my opinion, Saudi forcibly imposes its own version of Islam on the people, many don't get to practice in the way they see fit. Or it's downright oppressive for women. e.g., why can't women drive a car? I wouldn't hold KSA up as a model of Islam..
Why should women drive a car?? the country is respecting women and giving it full ease and relief. Their women are so valuable. How can you make pearl drive a car.
SA has an islamic law that is to be applied on people. similary as the man-mad american laws. Why dont we speak about the man-made american laws( for example)??
if you count the crime rate in countries of man-made laws you will find it high and vice versa.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by islamsweden.org: Why should women drive a car?? [/QB]
Excuse me?So these are the same rights that you're talking about?
Women have right to have all rights as a men have.No more no less.In everything.
Posts: 979 | From: Another world | Registered: May 2006
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posted
Actually people understand that women in SA are leading a miserable life. In fact, Women in SA are treated as Queens. I think women have to be treated as Queens. so, women shouldnt drive a car.
there should be a driver for her.
Islam didnt call for the equality of women with men. it give women more rights than men I think
The western media are defaming the image of Suadi women. and they make exceptions as reality.
Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
"Why should women drive a car?? the country is respecting women and giving it full ease and relief. Their women are so valuable."
Valuable to whom? Valuable as a pearl you say? Yes, I value my possessions, to a degree. I own them, I decide where they are kept, I can give them away if I want to, in fact I can throw them off a bridge if I want to.
A human's "value" is inherent - it does not require judgement nor estimation by another human. It is not up to any man to decide what is my "worth." My decision to persue the activities that I want to engage in, such as driving, is my own. I am capable of calculating its risks and rewards without assistance.
There is a big difference between a queen and a pearl. A queen OWNS pearls. And when a queen wants to drive, she commands someone to fetch her a car, eh? Hahaha!
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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I wouldn't hold KSA up as a model of Islam..
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