quote:Originally posted by Marcella: I already gave you answer.And I believe that Jesus died.And not the way that is in Quran.I don't believe what's in Quran about Jesus.
ok marcella it`s up to you to believe or not believe !!! i only want from you to answer me in one word...yes , or no about my qestion above.....please.
Posts: 92 | From: egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Islam is the only religion that says that Jesus did not die on the cross. Islam denies this historical fact about Jesus which therefore negates the salvation given us by the Son of God's painful death and miraculous resurrection from the dead. Even the Jewish Sanhedrin (High Religious Court) in Jerusalem admits Jesus died there. In addition to the writers of the 4-Gospels and Josephus, the Jewish 1st century historian (See Antiquities 18-63) -- the Jewish Babylonian Talmud (Sanhedrin 43a) from the Tannaitic Period recorded: "On the eve of the Passover Yeshu [the Nazarene] was hanged".... This means on a wooden cross.
Posts: 223 | Registered: Jul 2006
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Muslims have to get over the lie that God cannot begot. He surely did. He did it in "the book". Look to Genesis where God says;
Genesis 1:26 (4000 Before Christ / 4570 yrs before Muhammad): "And God said, Let us make man in our image...."
To make things far worse for Islam. In the Qur'an where Allah speaks, he says "We", "Us", Our" over 100 times!
Proverbs 30:4 (700 Before Christ/1270 yrs before Muhammad): "Who hath ascended up into heaven or descended? Who hath gathered the wind in His fists? Who hath bound the waters in a garment? Who hath established all the ends of the Earth? What is His name, and what is His son's name, if thou canst tell?"
(Psalm 2:11-12) Serve the LORD with fear, and rejoice with trembling. Kiss the Son, lest he be angry, and ye perish from the way, when his wrath is kindled but a little. Blessed are all they that put their trust in him.
"For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life." John 3:16
Muslims generally mistakenly conceive of this term "begotten" as meaning a literal, physical, sexual act between God and Mary. The Christian Church never taught that. Islamic mullahs and imams are those who teach that lie in order to confuse. "Begotten" here does not concern physical birth.
If Muslims would read their own Qur'an they would realize Allah can and DID do such a thing. Sura 3:47 -She (Mary) said: My Lord! when shall there be a son (born) to I me, and man has not touched me? He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.
Begotten means "come from" without necessarily being created. Before the beginning of time, Jesus, who is also called the Word of God and the Logos, came from God the Father. Logos means the divine Word of God; the second person in the Trinity (incarnate in Jesus). God is Spirit and loving light! Exactly how Jesus and the Father are one is a mystery. Try and picture two spot lights focused on the same spot. These separate lights merge as one.
It shows that Jesus' light is one and the same as the Father's. And that only Jesus is our mediator with the Father. All (Christians, Jews, Muslims, Hindu, etc) have sinned. So all require a mediator.
Posts: 223 | Registered: Jul 2006
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YOU ALL NEED TO GET THE CONTEXT OF THE QURAN CORRECTLY ,PLEASE PLEASE ,as muslims we are not saying jesus (pbuh)was never on the cross ,and muslims u shud get it right ,he was saved by allah before he died he did, he didnt live a harmonious life on earth as christians think when we say he didnt die ,kkkkkkkkkk...he is a very special man in the hearts of all religions look up hinduism u wll see he is mentioned in another way hes special to all of us ,insteadof dissing one of u for the truth and who is the better one in religion ,start looking ot the future and see where jesus(pbuh) is going to be and whathe stands for and what he is going to do ,as amuslim and many other faiths im looking forward to that day .when he will wipe out this crappy of destruction and nastiness that we all yes ALL POSSESS,,THE MOUTH AND THE GUN AND THE BLOODY BOMB!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!may jesus (pbuh)reign in the heavens
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quote:Originally posted by Aki: On any law in the world, who is claiming is who has to prove, as the Islam came after Christianity by 600 years and totally denied the incident without proof, so it's funny now asking Christians that had eye witness beside Jewish also , who had seen on the cross Jesus himself. and the comedian issue that Islam came and said he wasn't Jesus, just simply without any explanation or mention who was the other person, and Muslim now need from all the world and the History concerns to change their minds and believe this claim based on simple sentence in Quran that non muslim don't consider it God's word for the mistakes and Contradiction inside,so your question should be asked to your brothers in Islam,how to prove that Jesus didn't die on the cross ,by logic and an Explanation respect the mind in 2006.
by logic?!!!yes like the same logic that you use to believe that jesus was half human and half god(just like hirucles!),or that he was a god in a human's body?!!!what's more funny?to believe that he was a prophet of god or that he was a god in a humans body?!!!!
Posts: 23 | From: NY | Registered: Nov 2005
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Do you think that Christians believe in Jesus just by only logic, my dear you have to read first about (in case you want to debate with Christians) : Who is Jesus? What about the prophecies about his coming and leaving in Torah? Why he came and what was his deeds? What was his teaching to the people? Why Christians calling him the son of God? Why Jewish crucified him?
When you read most of all these plus the Gospels, then will be able to understand the Christianity creed and also able to discuss.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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Still waiting for an answer, who was crucified Jesus the man or Jesus the God?… please do not escape from the answer by leading the Topic to another issues, but you have to take care before you answer, because either are problematic .
Posts: 90 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Thanks Jebran for your interesting I prefer to explain this important issue in a new topic, your question had been explained from hundreds years before ,it is not new but just give some time coz I am so busy right now,I didn't escape but I left and came to find the issue itself had little bit changed ,my last reply was to run fast
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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Dear Jebran I gave a brief explaination about your question in the same thread on the first page,you can check,it means I didn't escape, don't forget that theology had been a subject from many years in universites ,all what in your mind from questions had been asked before and fully answered in volumes. http://www.egyptsearch.com/forums/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=10;t=001883;p=1Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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Again who crucified was the human nature of Jesus his flesh and body but the divine nature can't be hurt of course, as I described before in the example of the sun ray, another example for more clarification.
If you put an iron in the fire and hit it by hammer, did you hit the fire or the iron, of course you hit only the iron, isn't the fire keeping it's properties of burning,lighting..etc and also the iron keeping it's properties, you can shape it in fire coz it united with fire but at the end neither the iron will be fire nor the fire will be iron .
From these we can say the human and the divine natures united together every nature keeps it's properties, the divine one creating ,healing ,rise dead people,…etc,the human one eating….etc coz it's under the nature's law,so who who had been on the cross was only the flesh and the body of Jesus, me ,you and every one crucified him by our sins and misunderstood his message, my friend Jebran you have to read more about God's plan for the salvation of his people ,why God punished Adam and his descended and how God sent the salvation for human,coz God is love and can't leave his own people who create them to going hell, he sent his wisdom word as a human to let you and others understand his message, would you understand now.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by run_fast_run: by logic?!!!yes like the same logic that you use to believe that jesus was half human and half god(just like hirucles!),or that he was a god in a human's body?!!!what's more funny?to believe that he was a prophet of god or that he was a god in a humans body?!!!!
What if it is only man who insists that God can reveal His truth on PAPER (in a book), but not in PERSON (in a body)? What if the eternal Word of God really did take on a human body? Which is the better method of communication: to write a letter to someone? or to visit him or her in person? Might God choose to use ultimately the best method of communication so that we can know what He is like, and so that He might provide for us the salvation about which all the prophets prophesied and which millions of animal sacrifices symbolized?
What if He is also a holy, loving, relational God, as the Scriptures of the prophets teach, a God who does not despise the thought of coming into our world, and dwelling among men, in order to reveal Himself fully and provide for us a way to be made righteous and be made fit to live forever in His presence?
Posts: 223 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Aki: Again who crucified was the human nature of Jesus his flesh and body but the divine nature can't be hurt of course, as I described before in the example of the sun ray, another example for more clarification.
what you said Mr/aki indicated to us that:God didn`t hurt!!!!! so,the idea of trinity , incarnated and crusified was failed wholly, because you claim christianity rely on this idea!!!!
Posts: 92 | From: egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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please read again Mr.AbuMaryam, I said the divine nature can't be hurt this absolutely right, when the Christians say God suffered and hurted for humans it means by meaning as Jesus was representing the image of God, we can't neglect and cancel everything like that.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by What Box: ^^ Yahoshua (Jesus) was crucified.
... so that he could bare our sins and we could start out fresh because we have only a little time left.
who was said that? the cleric paul!!!!!!!
+ matthew mark luke and john
ok Mr/mikr rozier The broblem is how can we explain this point about "bare our sin" i challenge you if you can give me one verse indecate to us , or jesus said that 'iam coming to salvate you from adam`s sin" or "i am the God" or "i will crusify for your sins".......... that`s only what clerics try to repeat without even one evidence from the bible.......
Posts: 92 | From: egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Aki: Again who crucified was the human nature of Jesus his flesh and body but the divine nature can't be hurt of course, as I described before in the example of the sun ray, another example for more clarification.
If you put an iron in the fire and hit it by hammer, did you hit the fire or the iron, of course you hit only the iron, isn't the fire keeping it's properties of burning,lighting..etc and also the iron keeping it's properties, you can shape it in fire coz it united with fire but at the end neither the iron will be fire nor the fire will be iron .
From these we can say the human and the divine natures united together every nature keeps it's properties, the divine one creating ,healing ,rise dead people,…etc,the human one eating….etc coz it's under the nature's law,so who who had been on the cross was only the flesh and the body of Jesus, me ,you and every one crucified him by our sins and misunderstood his message, my friend Jebran you have to read more about God's plan for the salvation of his people ,why God punished Adam and his descended and how God sent the salvation for human,coz God is love and can't leave his own people who create them to going hell, he sent his wisdom word as a human to let you and others understand his message, would you understand now.
again Mr/aki there is an important question:who was determinded and decided the nature of God? and when?
Posts: 92 | From: egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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Philosophically speaking, which is greater, a God who demonstrates his love to the utmost extent (see Philippians 2) or one who refrains from doing so in order to preserve his image of "greatness"?
When we begin to see the world through a Muslim's eyes, and understand their perspective toward the incarnation and the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, and when we imagine a world without the incarnation, it is like having a "It's a Wonderful Life" (Jimmy Stuart movie) experience. We begin to see what an awesome thing the incarnation is, and we appreciate more then ever before what God has done for us!
Another question: If you claim to be born without a sin nature (an inborn propensity toward sin rather than a natural propensity toward righteousness), then how long can you go without sinning? Can you go for a week without sin? How about a day? If you are born basically good, then why does one need to struggle and make a conscious effort to be good and not need to struggle to be bad? Why do we naturally drift toward selfishness and not righteousness?
Posts: 223 | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by l: Philosophically speaking, which is greater, a God who demonstrates his love to the utmost extent (see Philippians 2) or one who refrains from doing so in order to preserve his image of "greatness"?
When we begin to see the world through a Muslim's eyes, and understand their perspective toward the incarnation and the redemptive work of Jesus Christ, and when we imagine a world without the incarnation, it is like having a "It's a Wonderful Life" (Jimmy Stuart movie) experience. We begin to see what an awesome thing the incarnation is, and we appreciate more then ever before what God has done for us!
Another question: If you claim to be born without a sin nature (an inborn propensity toward sin rather than a natural propensity toward righteousness), then how long can you go without sinning? Can you go for a week without sin? How about a day? If you are born basically good, then why does one need to struggle and make a conscious effort to be good and not need to struggle to be bad? Why do we naturally drift toward selfishness and not righteousness?
thank you very much last/1 for your philosophic lecture , only we ask some questions and you give us only alot of boring philosophic lectures. who was crusified jesus or God , who was suffring jesus or God,who was pained jesus or the God????? and if the God didn`t hurt or"divine nature" as you said , so why all of this love story of the suffring`s God? Posts: 92 | From: egypt | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Jebran: According to Islam, Jesus Christ PBH was not crucified. In the Bible it was mentioned that he was. So, who was crucified, Jesus the man?, Jesus the God ? or Jesus the man and God in the same time?
Jesus Christ was the Messiah. Jesus said Himself: "The Law says, and no scripture can be broken, 'I say that you are gods'. Now if the word of God has called people 'gods', than why are you upset that I claim to be the Son of God"(John chapter 10)......
Jesus of Nazareth was many things. He is Lord. He is the Lamb of God. He is Emmanuel. He is the Word of God. He is the High Priest. He is the Son of God. He is the Anointed One. He is the King. He is the Prophet. He is the Lion of Judah.......etc.
Being that he is the Messiah, he took on different functions. One of his functions was to be the sacrifice through which man might be reconciled to God. Hence, on the cross he assumed the function of the Lamb. Through this, he restored us back to God. His vindication was his resurrection. His resurrection is proof of his divine nature. Because of his resurrection, he is the fullness of the Godhead in bodily form(book of Colossians).
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Aki: On any law in the world, who is claiming is who has to prove, as the Islam came after Christianity by 600 years and totally denied the incident without proof, so it's funny now asking Christians that had eye witness beside Jewish also , who had seen on the cross Jesus himself. and the comedian issue that Islam came and said he wasn't Jesus, just simply without any explanation or mention who was the other person, and Muslim now need from all the world and the History concerns to change their minds and believe this claim based on simple sentence in Quran that non muslim don't consider it God's word for the mistakes and Contradiction inside,so your question should be asked to your brothers in Islam,how to prove that Jesus didn't die on the cross ,by logic and an Explanation respect the mind in 2006.
Let me ask you, if Islam is fake religion as you claim why would Mohamed(PBUH) claim that jesus wasn't crucified, he would easily say that he was crucified, in fact crusification strengthen the fact that he wasn't a god,and from my point of view the crucification is not helping the trinity idea. let me go further with you I don't know what is the scenario in your brain but I can guess and if you want you might expose to me. If I pretend to be a prophet and don't knew at all about the crucification, then I wouldn't mention it at all, as I don't know it exists in your religion. How can I talk about something I don't know about. If I knew about crucification but not well informed, I was told that those people says that there god was is some figure were he was crusified and I want to say that it this is not a god, wouldn't I say he wasn't a god and just put full stop, He was a prophet but he wasn't a god, what is wrong with this story, I would say also how would a god be crucified. what would make me say he wasn't crucified, when crucification would help me. I don't find any other scienaro can you expose any if you have
For muslims the prove for him not being crucified is the quran itself. Muslim's claim it wasn't him and you claim it was him, we claim it was someone whom was like him and you claim it was him in his flesh, I guess we all will have to wait until him comes back to earth to tell the truth. Or we can dig the grave that you state he was resurected from! I know that no one knows where is that exactly, but it seems that if there is a body in this grave then we are right (there was someone whom was crucified but this man is not resurrected) and if there is no body in it then you are right (he was resurrected from the grave), but I doubt that after 2006 years you can find anything other than ashes in the grave, but I guess scientests can be capable of telling whether there were a body there or not. Although it seems applicable but still I am sure it is not, in the sense that we don't know where is this grave, and if we argue about everything how can we agree on the place, I am sure if we let separate groups to conduct some study on that every group will come out with different result
I believe that we can't agree on anything on life, for example what is the cause of life? and with the cause I mean reason?
but let me ask you if we all are here to worship allah, and if we never heard about islam nor do we hear about christianity, whom would we be following? I mean if you for example were born somewhere without any influence from whomever, what would you believe about god, if you looked to the sky, the seas, the physics around you, the soil and the miracles we are living at, what should you think about god's nature. Would you ever thought about trinity for one second? If I take you from that state and compare you to christianity and islam whom of them would you match, in your believings about god's nature?
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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First I don't hate Islam or Muslims, what I am doing just exposing the hidden side of Islam to Muslims and non Muslims from Islam itself, I am not asking anyone to leave his religion, just we are putting the Islamic and Christian topics on the discussion table and every one sharing by his idea may be I am wrong and you are right or the opposite, at the end everyone will benefit by our informations.
I strongly advise you to read about the Arabian Peninsula before Islam and what about the religions were exist there. There a lot of books about that Like Islameyat to Dr.Sayed Alqemny The legends in Islamic heritage to Dr.Khalil Abdulkarim The biography of Prophet Muhammad to Ibn Ishaq Almofasal of Arabians life to Dr.Ali Abdelgawad and much more….
To judge Islam and Christianity we have to read the history first until reach to the beginning of the creed.
When prophet of Islam came by his new religion which called Islam, he didn't start by this name from the beginning but he was calling people for what so called Hanifya which the religion of Ibraham, when you read about Hanifya you will find that most of Islamic traditions like Haj, fasting Ramadan, prayers and so on….were performed by hanifiya, what Mohamed did is only putting all this tradition in a new frame and religion called Islam, why?
Due to the battles between tribes for who will be that master, it was urgent for someone to be the Master of Qureyash and everyone will follow him, so what if he is prophet? then everyone will consider him the representative of God in the region then every thing will be under his hand, marriage any woman getting privileges than anyone else ….etc ,it looks like King David and Suleiman that their stories were well known from Jewish tribes who also were living near by. For an example there was a guy his name was Maslama ,Maslama is said to have been called by his god’s name - ‘Rahman’. Maslama has reportedly declared his prophethood and started preaching even before Mohamed. The stories about Maslama show that there was at least another Arab prophet also preaching similar things to what Mohamed was doing.
By the support of heresy priest Warqa Ibn Nofal cousin of Khadiga his first wife, Khadiga got him to her cousin when he had claimed the revelation of Gabrieal.,Warqa said this the Mose's law, so he left Jesus and Christianity and returned back to Moses, he found that Mohamed can be the prophet who rule all tribes under his hand due to his family history.
So after that Mohamed said Islam is the last religion and came to clarify the misunderstanding of the previous religions and that he is the seal of other prophets, he forced to bring something new to the people otherwise his claim would be useless and no one could find any thing different than what exist. To be continue …..
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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There are two things funny about Christianity and Islam , Christianity has a fake story about the sin and salvation , they believe every one even babies are sinners and inherited the sin from their first father Adam , so all people deserve death – separation of God- and we all deserve hell , even saints and prophets were jailed in hell, Satan was their jailor till Jesus did his job and emancipated them , sure a ridiculous and awful story , the God who condemns infants for some thing they never did is unjust God and crazy , the one who is responsible about eating that fruit is Adam not any one else , the sin cannot be inherited just in the law of crazy God , we see in our life some decent and angel people born in the family of serious criminals and vise versa , but the funny about this story is there are billions of idiot people believed it , in spite of God of Christians was silent about it in his bible till saint Paul came and revealed what every one doesn’t know , Christians say there a lot of symbols about salvation story in bible in both of ot and nt , why didn’t he talk about it in details , what is the job of revelation if every thing is in symbols , may be God of Christians was so shy to talk about it The funny thing about islam that, muslims believe in the story of crucifixion, but they believe the one on the cross wasn’t Jesus but some one God deceived all the people with to save jesus from death penalty , so we have the right now to believe that muhammad wasn’t muhammad but some one else like him , and may be aishah whom muhammad raped wasn’t aishah , and from now on we can doubt every one may be he is some one else , criminals can have a smart trick in their trials , they can defend them selves by claiming the person who has commited the crime and his finger prints were detected wasn’t the crriminal who is in the front of judge ,but some one else God give him his shape like jesus story very funny muhammad really the GOD who deceives people that way and ask people to believe some thing different than what they saw with their eyes is a bad God and shall retire All the pains we see in our world now and we read about in the history came from fake religions fake Gods
Posts: 5 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by kafka12: The funny thing about islam that, muslims believe in the story of crucifixion, but they believe the one on the cross wasn’t Jesus but some one God deceived all the people with to save jesus from death penalty , ___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________Quran did say that Jesus Christ PBH was not killed or crucified but God raised him up to him, no cheat, no deceive._________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________ ______________________________________________All the pains we see in our world now and we read about in the history came from fake religions fake Gods
O.K. would you guide us to the true religion, to the true God?? who we are ?? who created us?? to where we are going?? the cause of this life??? Posts: 90 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Aki: First I don't hate Islam or Muslims, what I am doing just exposing the hidden side of Islam to Muslims and non Muslims from Islam itself, I am not asking anyone to leave his religion, just we are putting the Islamic and Christian topics on the discussion table and every one sharing by his idea may be I am wrong and you are right or the opposite, at the end everyone will benefit by our informations.
I strongly advise you to read about the Arabian Peninsula before Islam and what about the religions were exist there. There a lot of books about that Like Islameyat to Dr.Sayed Alqemny The legends in Islamic heritage to Dr.Khalil Abdulkarim The biography of Prophet Muhammad to Ibn Ishaq Almofasal of Arabians life to Dr.Ali Abdelgawad and much more….
To judge Islam and Christianity we have to read the history first until reach to the beginning of the creed.
When prophet of Islam came by his new religion which called Islam, he didn't start by this name from the beginning but he was calling people for what so called Hanifya which the religion of Ibraham, when you read about Hanifya you will find that most of Islamic traditions like Haj, fasting Ramadan, prayers and so on….were performed by hanifiya, what Mohamed did is only putting all this tradition in a new frame and religion called Islam, why?
Due to the battles between tribes for who will be that master, it was urgent for someone to be the Master of Qureyash and everyone will follow him, so what if he is prophet? then everyone will consider him the representative of God in the region then every thing will be under his hand, marriage any woman getting privileges than anyone else ….etc ,it looks like King David and Suleiman that their stories were well known from Jewish tribes who also were living near by. For an example there was a guy his name was Maslama ,Maslama is said to have been called by his god’s name - ‘Rahman’. Maslama has reportedly declared his prophethood and started preaching even before Mohamed. The stories about Maslama show that there was at least another Arab prophet also preaching similar things to what Mohamed was doing.
By the support of heresy priest Warqa Ibn Nofal cousin of Khadiga his first wife, Khadiga got him to her cousin when he had claimed the revelation of Gabrieal.,Warqa said this the Mose's law, so he left Jesus and Christianity and returned back to Moses, he found that Mohamed can be the prophet who rule all tribes under his hand due to his family history.
So after that Mohamed said Islam is the last religion and came to clarify the misunderstanding of the previous religions and that he is the seal of other prophets, he forced to bring something new to the people otherwise his claim would be useless and no one could find any thing different than what exist. To be continue …..
First of all this doesn't answer my question but let me tell you that as usual you use sokme misleading fake books that changes a lot of facts just to serve there purpose, in fact this happens a lot in the movies as well! it is like they change the history's fact to fit to there claims with no evidence on that no ever. It is you whom asked for evidence and I gave u two logical questions. Now back to your claims let me assure you that there was no musilama before Mohamed, in fact the name "rahman" was only called after islam and there is a verse in quran that assures that arabs didn't know what does "al rahman" means, not only a verse there is an evidence in the history of islam when the treaty was written between muslims and Mekka. Second problem with your claim is that there was no jewsih tribe near Mekka and this is a fact the nearest jewish were in Madina, and in fact after the prophet came they didn't know in Mekka about what he revealed that they asked some jew merchant whom came about 1 or 2yrs before the prophethood about what had revealed to Mohamed, this shows some other misleading information in your claim. Further more, you claim that warqa ibn nawfal was his mentor, well in fact warqa ibn nawfal wasn't living in Mekka, and he almost met Mohamed a couple of times, if he is his mentor then for sure people of Mekka should have noted this but in fact they didn't because actually Mohamed and Warqa wasn't in the same place, although they have seen each other. Yet, let me ask why if Warqa wanted to reveal some prophethood why didn't he claim that for himself at least he was a wealthy man and people would have followed him. There is no valid information about wether Warqa lived after Mohamed prophethood or not, but for sure Mekka's people never asked Warqa about Islam and he didn't join Islam, if it is him that is learning Mohamed (PBUH) why didn't he follow him ? Also Warqa at the most had lived for a couple of years after the prophethood so tell me whom learnt him before Waraqa?! Strange that this fairy tales only shows that some people are wondering from where did he get his info. and in fact this was said in the quran. Yet there is no evidence that Warqa as you claim is to be his mentor as well as it is falsified by any logical arguement, wouldn't Waraqa even follow him to back his religion ! Moreover why would Waraqa believe he can be the prophet as you claim? it is none sense, wouldn't Waraqa with his well known reputation uses some well known man in Mekka or Madina, sure he would have had some good acquatences there, and what did Warqa get from Mohamed's(PBUH) prophethood? nothin. It is also worth noting that Warqa was very old at the time. Just claims with no evidence what so ever, also the story of Warqa's religion is not well known. And after Waraqa whom was he that learnt Mohamed(PBUH)? It means that he should have met Warqa everyday at least to tell people what to say, in fact Warqa wasn't in the region at the time of prophethood, as a fact, wether they met before or after the prophethood it is unknown for sure.
Now you still didn't answer my question. would you before just going with the discussion to some other irrelevant story.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by kafka12: There are two things funny about Christianity and Islam , Christianity has a fake story about the sin and salvation , they believe every one even babies are sinners and inherited the sin from their first father Adam , so all people deserve death – separation of God- and we all deserve hell , even saints and prophets were jailed in hell, Satan was their jailor till Jesus did his job and emancipated them , sure a ridiculous and awful story , the God who condemns infants for some thing they never did is unjust God and crazy , the one who is responsible about eating that fruit is Adam not any one else , the sin cannot be inherited just in the law of crazy God , we see in our life some decent and angel people born in the family of serious criminals and vise versa , but the funny about this story is there are billions of idiot people believed it , in spite of God of Christians was silent about it in his bible till saint Paul came and revealed what every one doesn’t know , Christians say there a lot of symbols about salvation story in bible in both of ot and nt , why didn’t he talk about it in details , what is the job of revelation if every thing is in symbols , may be God of Christians was so shy to talk about it The funny thing about islam that, muslims believe in the story of crucifixion, but they believe the one on the cross wasn’t Jesus but some one God deceived all the people with to save jesus from death penalty , so we have the right now to believe that muhammad wasn’t muhammad but some one else like him , and may be aishah whom muhammad raped wasn’t aishah , and from now on we can doubt every one may be he is some one else , criminals can have a smart trick in their trials , they can defend them selves by claiming the person who has commited the crime and his finger prints were detected wasn’t the crriminal who is in the front of judge ,but some one else God give him his shape like jesus story very funny muhammad really the GOD who deceives people that way and ask people to believe some thing different than what they saw with their eyes is a bad God and shall retire All the pains we see in our world now and we read about in the history came from fake religions fake Gods
God didn't decieve people by the crucification incident he only saved Jesus from what they wanted to do with him, It is not an issue, if people had seen jesus raise to god before the crucification wouldn't they believe more that he is a god it would only add more to the trinity story? It is people whom decieved people by the trinity.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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To Mr.bibo Dear Sir, due to you are not fully aware about Islamic history, your info is incomplete, regarding Maslama he claimed prophethood during Mohamed's life even ,Maslama wrote letter to Mohamed saying from Maslama Messenger of Allah to Mohamed Messenger of Allah, then Mohamed replied from Mohamed messenger of Allah to Maslama the Liar, after that he had been killed during Abou Bakr ,there is also another lady called Sagah who claimed prophethood, As I mentioned before every tribe was trying to rule and dominate so if the leader is a prophet it will give the power to his tribe, you can find about Maslama in the Islamic library web site http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=200&CID=11
The books I have mentioned before are for academic professors spent their life in researches, so I am sorry I can't depend on your opinion as you are not academic person.
Regarding Warqa bin Nofal you can read the Biography of Mohamed book to Ibn Hisham or Ibn Ishaq.
Also there were many people Mohamed learned from them many stories and legends you can read the explanation of this verse and you will know who were surrounding him.
We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
Regarding your questions that if we are not aware about Islam and Christianity, what we could follow? Like many in the world still worshipping different gods, if they are living in remote areas we can excuse them and it also depends on their minds, of course if they don't know about others religions and can't read, they wouldn't know about trinity, Jesus, Mohamed….etc
But you have to know that God had sent messengers and revealed his word to the people for only one purpose, it is the salvation from their sins and to guide the people for living spiritual life, so we have to know the plan of God for us and how we can follow it.
You may find many religions in the world, people converting to other creeds, at the end it depends on the satisfaction of their heart and minds.hindu, chiniese, sikh they are happy, if you are happy by your doctrine and satisfy no one can forcing you to leave your happiness .at the end I hope our God enlighten our minds to follow his way.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Aki: To Mr.bibo Dear Sir, due to you are not fully aware about Islamic history, your info is incomplete, regarding Maslama he claimed prophethood during Mohamed's life even ,Maslama wrote letter to Mohamed saying from Maslama Messenger of Allah to Mohamed Messenger of Allah, then Mohamed replied from Mohamed messenger of Allah to Maslama the Liar, after that he had been killed during Abou Bakr ,there is also another lady called Sagah who claimed prophethood, As I mentioned before every tribe was trying to rule and dominate so if the leader is a prophet it will give the power to his tribe, you can find about Maslama in the Islamic library web site http://www.al-eman.com/Islamlib/viewchp.asp?BID=200&CID=11
The books I have mentioned before are for academic professors spent their life in researches, so I am sorry I can't depend on your opinion as you are not academic person.
Regarding Warqa bin Nofal you can read the Biography of Mohamed book to Ibn Hisham or Ibn Ishaq.
Also there were many people Mohamed learned from them many stories and legends you can read the explanation of this verse and you will know who were surrounding him.
We know indeed that they say, "It is a man that teaches him." The tongue of him they wickedly point to is notably foreign, while this is Arabic, pure and clear.
Regarding your questions that if we are not aware about Islam and Christianity, what we could follow? Like many in the world still worshipping different gods, if they are living in remote areas we can excuse them and it also depends on their minds, of course if they don't know about others religions and can't read, they wouldn't know about trinity, Jesus, Mohamed….etc
But you have to know that God had sent messengers and revealed his word to the people for only one purpose, it is the salvation from their sins and to guide the people for living spiritual life, so we have to know the plan of God for us and how we can follow it.
You may find many religions in the world, people converting to other creeds, at the end it depends on the satisfaction of their heart and minds.hindu, chiniese, sikh they are happy, if you are happy by your doctrine and satisfy no one can forcing you to leave your happiness .at the end I hope our God enlighten our minds to follow his way.
well about Musilama "el kazab" I know his history, the truth is that he followed Mohamed (PBUH) first and he called himself afterwards ra7man as this word wasn't issued until islam. Yes he exists before Mohamed(PBUH) death, and I am sorry for the invalid information I issued, I read it back and it seems that this information is true, but this happens at the last year of Mohamed (PBUH) propheciecy and Mohamed (PBUH) has actual said that he is liar but he died before fighting him. And Sagah married him and she left back after she heard of Khaled ibn Elwaleed coming. About the verses explaination, most of it is not upon a valid hadeeth and is regareded as "israelities", I know the verses you have been issuing, and I don't read el tabaree's tafseer as it includes a lot of isrealities. About the books you are taking about also they are full of crab isrealities "invalid and putten" hadeeth, non of it is authentic as good or valid hadeeth. about your claim that people have different religion in different places, it doesn't answer my question still, if you were a lone forsaken in some island whom would you believe in. Without influence of any civilization I agree that religion is for salvation and this is the main purpose of it but I believe that without any prophets people could turn to god, if you believe in the culture and so then you will follow some myths. I don't want to argue with you about issues like the dead sea scrolls, Qumaran, James church, the trinity console .. etc it is out of the point. and this is not my way, I am not trying to decieve people. Anyway as I always do, I won't question your faith, you are free to believe in whatever, but your ways of claiming false issues and pretending that you have the light when all you have is some myths that you promote, without no evidence what so ever except some doubts that all can be falisified. What we can discuss about islam is the quran and the valid hadeeth, not some un-authentic issues, and as you have seen there are more than one explaination for the same verse even the verses you are issuing here, what is important is whom faith is not ruined, if we follow some un-authentic books of history we will find different story, people claim that there is one face for the truth, well yes but there are million faces beside the one truth.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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It was one of the infidels whom was reverted away from islam after he was muslim whom claimed this.
Anyway the verse itself invalidates what you are saying, if Mohamed had learnt another language when and whom had learnt him.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Again, who was crucified? Jesus the God or the man ?? I suggest you make anothe global conference like Khalqudunia or Nikia to deciede it because each answer is a disaster.
Posts: 90 | Registered: Mar 2006
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Thank you Mr.bibo,you are a nice person and one of few guys who I can able to discuss in these issues with them. but I am wondering of one thing ,it is when we using the Hadith Muslims say it israelities when we using Quran Muslim say there is Nasikh and Mansoukh means verses came after verse and deleted the first one meaning,when we using Islamic books for Academic professors as witness Muslim say it's misleading and false,even the Tabari tafsir/explaination and Tabari is one of the Muslim leaders in explaining Quran and sunna, Muslims say it's full with israelities,so what your believe based on if this is bad and this is israelities,if you want to believe in a creed you have to accept all the sides not believe in the good things from your view and leaving the bad one that you don't able to believe.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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To Mr.Jebran,if we give you hundred books that answer your question,you will not understand so it's better to search by your self in the internet about your question and read the answer you may like.
Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Aki: Thank you Mr.bibo,you are a nice person and one of few guys who I can able to discuss in these issues with them. but I am wondering of one thing ,it is when we using the Hadith Muslims say it israelities when we using Quran Muslim say there is Nasikh and Mansoukh means verses came after verse and deleted the first one meaning,when we using Islamic books for Academic professors as witness Muslim say it's misleading and false,even the Tabari tafsir/explaination and Tabari is one of the Muslim leaders in explaining Quran and sunna, Muslims say it's full with israelities,so what your believe based on if this is bad and this is israelities,if you want to believe in a creed you have to accept all the sides not believe in the good things from your view and leaving the bad one that you don't able to believe.
As I am not illigible to discuss about Tabari, but I am talking about what he used, if you read his tafseer many times he just issue some doubtable hadeeth, and some words from the old testment that's why I don't read it, you can find for some verse more than 20 tafseer, which is not rationale, if this what happened it can't include 20, so actually there must be one truth out of it and he just shows all whatever he heard about it, as well as what is written in other books, as for him I don't have anything against Tabari, so you don't get me wrong. But I don't agree with his way, that's it, and as I have shown you the tafseer for the verse is varied, but one thing for sure Mohamed couldn't talk other languages and if so how can he translate the names .. etc. As for Quran the abbrogation is some verses is removed and some verses that have been revealed in order to deliver a finale issue, abbrogation in general means that the new verse holds better meaning, this happened in all religion, in fact for example if remember right in the old testemant, some prophet " Ezkiel approximately if I recall right" have announced to the king that he will die upon the revelation of god the king had prayed for salvation and afterwards he "Ezikial" had told him that he will live. There are plenty of same issues like this in bible. Yet our believeth is bad in Quran still, everything is arguable except Quran, and valid Sunnah, for example Quran has defined that we must pray , defined zakat, defined wodoo'a, defined that allah is like no other, defined some punishments exactly, .. etc. Yet any intellectual person should know that there is one truth and that there are many people whom wants to manipulate this and with any ways they try, in fact it is historical event that some at some Chalips a jew had been judged for manipulating in hadeeth, and he told the Caliph after he was judged, that he have bring several thousand hadeeth. Of course he has put some hadeeth that seems to be based on some incident but with some changes taht have impact on the religion what so ever .. It is people whom try to falisify the truth and it people whom try to dig for the truth ..
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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Still there is no valid written papers or scripts that is found to invalid or validate any of this claims, the claims you are using as argument is just speculations made upon invalid history stories, that there are several other stories for it, not only this there is no rational argument in it any rational argument falisify the issue it self by itself sometimes, not only this all of it have no reasonable doubt in it, knowing that even reasonable doubt can not be used as a proof for something what about unreasonable doubt!!
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Jebran: According to Islam, Jesus Christ PBH was not crucified. In the Bible it was mentioned that he was. So, who was crucified, Jesus the man?, Jesus the God ? or Jesus the man and God in the same time?
question is still urgent!!!
Posts: 130 | From: foggy bottom | Registered: Apr 2007
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O.K. would you guide us to the true religion, to the true God?? who we are ?? who created us?? to where we are going?? the cause of this life??? 
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