As mentioned in the following verses; The Most High chapter (Surat Al-A'laa) 18:" This is in the former Scriptures, the Scriptures of Ibrahim and Moses" The former scriptures are those scriptures descended before the quran
The Star chapter (Surat An-Najm) 36:"Or is he was not informed with what is in the Pages (Scripture) of Moses, And of Ibrahim"
Of those examples: 1) The story of the creation:, Mentioned in the book of genesis chapter 1 " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" And also in the cattle chapter (Surat Al-An'am) 73:"It is he who has created the heavens and the earth"
2) The creation of the world in six days Mentioned in the book of genesis chapter 1 And also in iron chapter (Surat Al-Hadid) 4:" it is him who created the heavens and the earth in six Days"
3) Adam and Eva: In the book of genesis chapter 1: 26, 2:18 And in the cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) 30 and the next verses
4) The story of Cain and Abel In the book of genesis chapter 4, And also mentioned in the quran but he called Cain as Cabell but Cain is the original Hebrew word
5) Noah and the flooding It was mention in the quran but it said that one of Noah's sons perished, which was not mentioned in the Holy Bible, as all of Noah's sons were saved
- Also we have the story of Ibrahim mentioned in the book of genesis in the Holy Bible and in the cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) in the quran
- The story of Lot mentioned in the book of genesis in the Holy Bible and in Hud chapter
- The story of Jacob / Israel in the book of genesis in the Holy Bible and in the Ranks (Surat As-Saffaat) in the quran
- The story of Moses and Pharaoh, the pillar of cloud, the manna and the quail and the rock and the story of the golden calf those mentioned in the book of exodus in the Holy Bible they were mentioned also in cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) in the quran
- The revelation of God to Moses mentioned in the book of exodus in the Holy Bible, it was also mentioned in cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) and the narration chapter (Surat Al-Qasas) in the quran
It was estimated that about 170 quotations from the Holy Bible are present in he quran
2-From the legendaries and popular tales
As those quoted from the Jewish Talmud named the Babylian Talmud
There are 9 chapters in the quran that's showing that he quoted from the ancient legendaries ; of them the Believers chapter (Surat Al-Mu'minun), the Criterion Chapter (Surat Al-Furqan) and the Ants chapter (Surat An-Naml)
Abdullah Yousef Ali said in his exegesis, page 1382:"the quran had quoted lot of things from the Simian tales book
There was a book in Greek and was published in London, about it he said that it seems that this book is of Hebrew origin He also pointed to the Jewish Madras in page 1638
As examples of those quotations: 1) Cabell's learning from a crow the way of burying his brother Mentioned in the table chapter (Surat Al-Ma'idah') it was quoted from a Hebrew book named (Arke Rabae Ali Azar) chapter 21
2) The legendary of Nimrod and his casting of Ibrahim in the fire and he was not burned In a Hebrew book named (Madras Rabani)
3) Salmon's meeting with the Jinn, demons, birds and hoopoe, and their bringing of the thorn of Saab's queen This legendary exists in the Jewish torjoum (torjoum shame) for the book of Esther
4) The presence of lust in the two angels Harūt and Marūt and their drinking of wine, committing adultery, killing and preaching Magic to people It was quoted from a Hebrew book named (Madras Yalkout)
5) The rise of the mountain over the heads of the Jewish It was quoted from a Hebrew book named (Aboudah Zarah) chapter 2, page 45
6) Transforming the Jewish to monkeys In the exegesis of Abdullah Yousef Ali, page 34, he said it was quoted from a Jewish legendary
7) The seven skies That's a legendary present in a Hebrew book named (Hethika), chapter 9, and page 2
8) The seven gates of the hell: In a Jewish book named (Zouhar)
9) The flooding of Noah was mad of boiling water In the exegesis of Rashi (Hebrew annotator) for the book of genesis
10) The preserved tablet It is quoted from a Hebrew book named (Flaky Abroud), chapter 5, and page 6 Those stories and others are legendaries not mentioned in the holy Books The question is does god put legendaries in his book?
How did the prophet know about those stories? The prophet knew about those stories from the Jews who were contemporary to him, with them he had many relations
Sheikh Khalil Abdul-Kareem said in his book " the genesis period in the life of the honest and truthful" , page 95: " Miss Khadija allowed the prophet Muhammad to be in contact with the priest Waraqa Ibn Nofal her cousin , another friends like Addas and monk Bohyra , he spent long nights with Warqa Ibn Nofal discussing with him and he mixed with all rites , denominations and religions present at that time.
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Through scientific and logic researches, it was found, that the Persian and Zerdeshtian cultures are the origin of many things in Islam
Examples for that are:
1) The story of Isra' and Me'raj (the midnight journey of Prophet Muhammad)
The origin of that story was found in the Persian legendaries in a Persian book named (Arta Wiraf Namak)
It was a legendary story narrating that the Zerdeshtian religion was markedly retrogressing, then a man named Arta Wiraf went to the Zerdeshtian god, an arch- angel named Sardis met him, and introduced him to the Zerdeshtian divine glory named Urmest, he reached him, saw him and reached the Me'raj, god Urmest blessed him then sent him back to strengthen the Zerdeshtian faith
The story existed in the old Persian culture (behloian) 400 years before Islam
In that book, chapter 7, paragraph 1- 4, Arta Wiraf said: I put my first step to reach the stars layer, I saw the souls of those holy people who are emitting light like a shinning planet , there was a throne , I asked the angel Azar the angel of fire about that place and those people , finally the arch-angel stood up of his throne decorated with gold and took my hand and got me into the presence of Zuricht the second , the mind and the cognition, then Behmen said this is Armontz , I wished to check hand with him , he said peace upon you Arta Wiraf , welcome , then he ordered the holy Arouf and the angel saying; carry Arta Wiraf to see the recompense of the righteous and punishment of the wicked , which is the same in the quran; the paradise and the hell
A similar story to the Isra' and Me'raj was found also in the Indian pagan religions, in an Indian book named "Aprolophitum" (meaning the tourism to the world of andra}
The old Indians said that Andra was the god of the sky, there was a man who reached the sky and came to the place where Andra the god of sky existed, there was a garden and eternal springs irrigating the green plants, and in the middle of the garden there was a tree called Gizia
The story of Isra' and Me'raj was not the only story that influenced Muhammad but there are also many stories
2) "Hour Al-Ein"(the paradise women)
They do not exist in any holy book and it is derived from the Zerdeshtian and Indian cultures with a great similarity with what was mentioned in the quran and the converses
In the Behloian (Old Persian) language the word "Hour" was present with the same meaning as mentioned in Islam
Those charming women were mentioned in the Old Persian books and also in the old Indian books
It was said that" those Hour are for the enjoyment of martyrs of war in earth" Exactly as mentioned in the quran, as for each believer in the paradise will be 72 Hour Al- Ein
Also the same was mentioned in the quran, concerning the martyrs and their enjoyment with Hour Al- Ein in the paradise
3) The Jinn:
The word Jinn was derived from the Behloian (Old Persian) language It was mentioned in a book named (fiesta) it is the holy Zerdeshtian book and their constitution
It is derived from the word Jinni meaning an evil demon
Also about the expulsion of Azaziel from the paradise, it was present in Zerdeshtian
It was said that God created Azaziel and he worshiped God 1000 years in a prison , then he came out to the earth and worshiped god in each layer of the earth 1000 years till he reached the inner most earth
The same story of Azaziel who was a prisoner then liberated as mentioned in the quran was originally mentioned in Zerdeshtian
In the book of (Ara'es Al-Majals) , page 73 Satan ( that's Azaziel) stayed by the gate of paradise for 3000 years , aiming to hurt Adam and Eve as his heart was full of envy
The same story was mentioned in Zerdeshtian in a book named (bundahashina), chapter 1, 2, it was said that" Ahrment" that was Satan" was in the darkness and still there, he was unaware of things till they happen, in that darkness he wished to hurt others, finally he went out of the abysm, when he saw the light of Arnos he wished to harm others
So there is a similarity between Azaziel in Islam who was" Ahrment' in Zerdeshtian who was in a prison and tried hardly to hurt God's creatures
The question is does God inspire by things that were present in the ancient legendaries? Those legendaries that don't exist in the Taurāt and bible
4) The light of Muhammad;
It was mentioned in Islam in the stories of the prophets, that the first thing created by God was the light of Muhammad
In the garden of the beloved( Rawdat Al-Ahbab) it was said that: when God created Adam , he put on his forehead a light , and said : O Adam this light is the light of your best son , the chief prophet who will be sent , then that light was conveyed to the whole mankind till reached Abdullah Bin Abdul-Muteleb , and from him to Am'na who gave birth to Muhammad
The origin of that story was present in a Zerdeshtian book " Fares Yousel "it said:" the creator , created the whole universe and all his creatures , the chief angel, the heavenly mind ,all from his own light , the legendary mentioned that the light which was in the first man( Adam) ,was conveyed from person to another till reached the last person ,
That was exactly the same story mentioned in the converses concerning the light of Muhammad
5) The straight bath (Al-Surat Al-Mustakim)
It was said that it is a very thin cord thinner than a hair and sharper than a sward, on which all people will walk, the disbelievers will fall into the hell when they walk on it, but Muslims will get into the paradise
The word "Surat" is not an Arabic word, it does not exist in the Arabic language at all, but it is a Persian word meaning the bridge
Zerdeshtian said that it connects the earth with the paradise, the same concept used by Muhammad
In a Persian book named (Zikart) , part 2, chapter 81, page 5,6:" Zirdash said : I am keeping my purity and chastity , worshiping you , not to have your horrible punishment , but to walk on the " Surat" to reach that blessed place , that's full of perfumes and joy
"Al-Surat" is not present in any religion, nothing like that Surat that is like a thin hair leading to the paradise
How did those believes reach the Arabic peninsula? , and how did Muhammad acquired those cultures?
In the book of" the garden of the beloved (Rawdat Al-Ahbab) it was said that:" Muhammad used to speak and argue with everyone come to him, from all rites and denominations and he used to speak with them with some words of their languages"
Those stories in the quran were famous stories narrated by the Arabs
Al-Kanady said in his book (the Arabs) "the story of Aad and Thamoud, the camel of Saleh and the people of the elephant were mentioned in a sitting, he said those cold storied and tales of the old had been narrated by nights"
In the prophetical life story by Ibn Hesham: a Persian man named Selman the Persian who suggested for Muhammad to dig the tunnel and make the 'Majaniq" in the incursion of bane-Safik in Al-Tae'f
Selman the Persian helped Muhammad to write the quran and that what Muhammad mentioned in the Bees chapter (Surat An-Nahl) 103" It is only a human being who teaches him"
I am asking how Muhammad spoke with him about the tunnel and "Majaniq" in Persian language. And how he lived in the Arabic peninsula, and didn't learn from his contemporary Persian people and took from them lot of their culture
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4-From the Christian sources ,Islam are divided into two parts:
(A) Quotations from the Holy Bible: the examples for that are:
1) The annunciation of the angel to Zakaria:
Mentioned in Mary chapter (Surat Maryam) in the quran and in the gospel of Luke in the Holy Bible
2) Virgin Mary and the annunciation of the angel to her:
Mentioned in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) in the quran and in the gospel of Luke in the Holy Bible
3) Difficulty of getting the wickedest into heaven:
In the Holy Bible it is mentioned in the gospel of Luke 18:25: "For it is easier for a camel to enter in through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".
In the quran in The Heights chapter (Surat Al-A'raf) 40:" Verily, those who belie Our verses and treat them with arrogance, for them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle"
4) The recompense of the pious, righteous people in heaven:
In the Holy Bible it is mentioned in 1Corinthians 2:9 "Things which an eye didn't see, and an ear didn't hear, which didn't enter into the heart of man, these God has prepared for those who love him."
In Meshkat Almasabih, page 487, there is a holy converse: narrated Abu-Hurairah that Muhammad said: God said that I prepared for my righteous worshipers Things which an eye didn't see, and an ear didn't hear
5) Miracles of the Christ:
As creation, giving sight to the blind and reviving from death
In the gospel of Matthew: "healing every disease and every sickness among the people"
In the quran in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 49: I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life"
6) The Jewish' denial of the Christ:
In the gospel of Matthew 26:4:" They took counsel together that they might take Jesus by deceit, and kill him"
In the quran in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 54:"And they plotted and Allah plotted too. And Allah is the Best of the plotters"
With the difference that in the Holy Bible it was not said that God is plotter, as this could never be
7) The Christ' ascension up to the sky:
In the gospel of Mark:" So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was received up into heaven" In the quran, in the women chapter (Surat An-Nisa') 158:" But Allah raised him up unto Himself"
(B) The popular legendaries and the books of heretics: Among the sources of Islam were the popular legendaries and quotations from the books of heretics, as examples for that:
1) Maryam (Mary) the daughter of Imran:
In the Holy Bible it was mentioned that Maryam (Mary) was the daughter of Yoakum
But in the quran it was mentioned that Maryam was the daughter of Imran, and the sister of Moses and Hārūn, although there is a difference in time between them about fifteen centuries
Maryam the daughter of Imran was present in a popular book that was assimilating Virgin Mary with Mary the sister of Moses and Hārūn and daughter of Imran, as just an assimilation for extracting contemplations, but the quran considered that as a fact and quoted that, so Virgin Mary became the daughter of Imran
God can't mistake in a fact like this to be included in his saying
2) The angel bringing food to Maryam while she was in Al-Mihrāb (seclusion) In the quran, in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 37:" Every time Zakaria entered Al-Mihrāb (seclusion) to visit her, he found her supplied with sustenance. " That does not exist in the Holy bible at all, but that story was literally present in a popular book named" The birth of Mary and the childhood of the savior", chapter 20
3) The Christ speaking in the cradle: The quran mentioned that the Christ spoke while he was in the cradle, in Mary chapter (Surat Maryam) 29, 30:" Then she pointed to him. They said: "how can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?'Iesa (Jesus) said: Verily! I am a slave of Allah; He has given me the Scripture and made me a Prophet"
This story doesn't exit in The Holy Bible, but was literally present in a popular book named" The birth of Mary and the childhood of the savior", chapter 20, and the quran quoted it from that book
This story was originally derived from Indian legendary about the birth of Buddha, 559 years before the Christ and was present in an Indian book named" Midana Kataha " chapter 1, page 5 , it was taken by those lay people who wanted to glorify the Christ making him speaking while he was still in the cradle , so Muhammad quoted it, thus was mentioned in the quran
4) The creation of birds by the Christ: This doesn't exist in The Holy Bible, but was present in the book" Narration about the childhood of the Christ ", chapter 36
5) The table descending from the sky: This story mentioned in the quran in table chapter (Surat Al-Ma'idah') 112-115 doesn't exit in The Holy Bible, but was quoted from the popular books
6) The story of the Cave people: It is a story mentioned in the quran in: The Cave chapter (Surat Al-Kahf )22:"Some say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them, others say they were five, the dog being the sixth, guessing at the unseen, yet others say they were seven, the dog being the eighth, My Lord knows best their number; none knows them but a few, So debate not "
Amazingly God doesn't know their exact number saying : Some say they were three, the dog being the fourth among them, others say they were five, the dog being the sixth, others say they were seven, the dog being the eighth, My Lord knows best , so why he was telling those guesses while he would know the truth, and he doesn't want also the people to ask about the saying" debate not"
This story of people of the cave was quoted from the book of "the life story of the Christian saints and martyrs" named "Al-Sineksar" In it, they mentioned" under the readings of the 20 Th of Mesra" (one of the Coptic months):
"In that day, on the year 252 Gregorian, the seven young saints martyred, those were in Ephesus and their names are documented they are: Melkhis, Martinyanus John, Maximus, Dionasius, Serabion and Kostantinius
When the king provoked the paganism, they went to a cave to hide in it, fearing that they may fall under the threatening of the king, and deny the Christ, but the king knew about that, and he commanded to close the gate of the cave on them , one of the guards who was executing that commandment was a Christian , so he engraved their life story on a brass sheet he found in the cave
So those saints slender their pure souls and died , when the lord wished to honor those honest believers , he revealed to the bishop of the city to go and open the door of the cave , he went and found them dead but their bodies were conserved and intact , he knew from the brass sheet he found in the cave that they died two hundred years ago, and he knew from the coins they had that they were during the reign of king Dakius
The story was quoted by Muhammad and was put into the quran As many Christian were present in the Arabic peninsula, that story reached the Arabic peninsula and was altered
Ibn Hesham said in his book 'the prophetical life story", part one page 217: "Christianity was widely spread in Najran in the north of Yemen and the south of Hijaz, the king of Yemen was a Christian, also Waraqa Ibn Nofal became a Christian in Makkah and so many others So those popular stories were reaching to people and hence were included in the quran.
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posted
Now we have to learn from the false languial scientest, well you have to know that there was no one arabic language in the land of arabs, tribes have different words that elaborate different meanings accoding to there place, it is a variant of languages. The arabians themselves can be defined as a lingual group of people, the "Pure origin" arabs "arab arebah" are the Arabs who are direct descendants of Noah through his son Shem through his sons Aram and Arfakhshaath. This Arab group is known as (Qahtanite), and those who left Mesopotamia (land of Aram in particular) and settled in Yemen in 8000 BC.These groups spoke one of the early forms of Arabic and spoke South Semitic languages such as Sabaic, Minaic, Qatabanic, and Hadramitic . Famous noble Qahtanite Arab families from this group can be recognised in the modern days from their surnames such as :Alqahtani, Alharbi, Alzahrani, Alghamedey, aws and khazraj (Alansari or Ansar), Aldosari, Alkhoza'a, Morra, Alojman, etc. Other arab "arab mostarabaah" are descendants of Abraham through his son Ishmael through his Son Adnan, and they are known as Adnanite: it is defined of the Arabs who settled in Mecca when Abraham took his Egyptian wife Hagar or (Hajar) and his son Ishmael to Mecca. Prophet of Islam Mohammad is descended of Adnanite Arab. Some famous noble Adnanite Arab families from this group are: Aldosari, Almaleek, Bani khaled, Bani kolab, Bani Hashim, etc. The term "arab mosta'arabah" is also used for defining the Arabs who spoke other Afro-Asiatic languages . They are Arabic speakers and regarded as Arabs in contemporary times this includes persian, egyptian .. etc Your claims are not-proven as you only find one word in persian that is used in quran then he fot it from persians, "though he never had ever went to this land any time (PBUH)" but it is like how languages evolve, yeah there is some words that were derieved to arabic in quran but all of those words have what we call arabic reference "Masdar", except for names of persons and places .. which what we call unreferenced words "mamnoo' men el saref". As usual reference web pagePosts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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what ole boy Servant said is on point. You best study man. Did you know that Muhammad was part of a cult called "Ahnaf"? These dudes were into alot of occultism......Waraqa(I believe he was a relative of Khadijah and Muhammad........), one of the founding members of the group(who was also, I believe, was "supposively" a Christian), boasted about raping a young girl........Ahnaf(from whence the name "Hanif" came from) was looked down at because of the negativity involved with the group......yet Muhammad was a part of this group....... Muhammad used to talk to the priests of the Jinn in his day. He also used to talk to a couple of Christian slaves who read the Bible. Almost all the stories of the Koran come from the Jewish, Christian, Sabian, Zoroastrian, and Sabian stories and myths. Almost nothing is original. My Muslim friends, do your research. Do you believe that Alexander the Great was a "Muslim"? Apparently Muhammad did. But history tells us that Alexander felt that he was a son of Ammon and Zeus. He consulted the Greek idols and oracles before going to war. History tells us that, yet Muhammad seems to have things messed up. My Muslim friends, study. Nothing in the Koran follows chronilogical order. It is totally off with historical accounts and history genealogies, etc. Do your research ya'll. Salaam
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quote:Originally posted by Israel: Sorry Bibil1978,
what ole boy Servant said is on point. You best study man. Did you know that Muhammad was part of a cult called "Ahnaf"? These dudes were into alot of occultism......Waraqa(I believe he was a relative of Khadijah and Muhammad........), one of the founding members of the group(who was also, I believe, was "supposively" a Christian), boasted about raping a young girl........Ahnaf(from whence the name "Hanif" came from) was looked down at because of the negativity involved with the group......yet Muhammad was a part of this group....... Muhammad used to talk to the priests of the Jinn in his day. He also used to talk to a couple of Christian slaves who read the Bible. Almost all the stories of the Koran come from the Jewish, Christian, Sabian, Zoroastrian, and Sabian stories and myths. Almost nothing is original. My Muslim friends, do your research. Do you believe that Alexander the Great was a "Muslim"? Apparently Muhammad did. But history tells us that Alexander felt that he was a son of Ammon and Zeus. He consulted the Greek idols and oracles before going to war. History tells us that, yet Muhammad seems to have things messed up. My Muslim friends, study. Nothing in the Koran follows chronilogical order. It is totally off with historical accounts and history genealogies, etc. Do your research ya'll. Salaam
Sorry for you Israel, Mohamed were without no doubt from "Banu hashim" they weren't Ahnaf at the time, but he refused to bow or believe in idols even when he was young, the problem is that israelities forgot to claim that he had bowed to some idol when he was young, anyway he didn't follow there religion, Mohamed and his close friend abu-bakr wheren't of any of this tribe, Mohamed's (PBUH) family were all idol worshippers, there was no reason for him to follow Ahnaf, actually he never met Waraqa except a couple of times as Waraqa Validily never lived in Mecca as you claim, and Mohamed haven't been away from Mecca except three times one of them he was only six and the other time was 9, the last time it was for a commercial trip, would he learn other languages in a commercial trip when he can't read or write ?!. The problem with what you are saying is that it all comes from israelities origins, there were no israelean's in Mecca, and there were no church in Mecca nor there were any christian groups, nor did Mohamed(PBUH) know how to write or read, and he never had learnt foreign languages. Another issue if Mohamed was from the Ahnaf what held him from telling so when he started believing in them, no one would have done anything to him, he wasn't some idol worshipper in the first hand, and of course by the time he believed in this religion he wouldn't have a clue that he would pretend that he will be a prophet, moreover what is wrong if he becomes first from the Ahnaf and then claims prophiecy at least he would have time to learn more about the other religions, meet other believers .. etc. Afterwards he can claim that he is god's prophet, what is the problem with this? Your claim is falisified from it basic it is build upon some unvalidated stories and unrational thinking. Can you answer this Question, if Waraqa was his mentor why didn't Waraqa claimed of being a prophet? at least he comes from some religion and a wealthy man 'non-orphan' all of this haven't happened actually any christian slave as you claim that he might have talken to which is in fact never validated, have never spoke arabic fleuntly, slaves on the other hand are not people where free men at that time spoke to them except for telling them some orders.
Let me ask you why would Mohamed do all of this if he weren't a prophet, he never gained money nor did he gain any kind of luxury! before prophecy he was an honoured man with some potential life after prophiecy he was hated and forced out of land. Islam on the other hand doesn't contradict with previous religions in that it glarifies one god and only one. and it comes to hold Virtues. and with more reasonable vision of god than the christian and jewish view for god
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The greatest influence on Islam was the pagan environment surrounding it; it had very big impact on it especially when Muslims tried to reconcile with the pagans and the people of korish
In Encyclopedia Britannica, part 1, page 1047 :{ the researcher are considering the Arabic pagan religion as the origin of the Islamic religion}
Sheikh Abdul Galil Abdul-Karim mentioned in his book "the historic roots of the Islamic legislation", page 1208):
The Arab in the pre-Islam paganism epoch was the origin of many rules, rituals, regulations and legislations that Islam had founded, so we can say with great certainty that Islam had inherited from the paganism lot of worshiping and ritualistic aspects
There is a field which the Islamic proselytisers are very keen of obscuring and concealing which is the religious field, as lot of readers will be astonished when they know that Islam had taken from the paganism lot of religious and rituals
Sheikh Abdul Galil Abdul-Karim (sheikh of Islam, one of Al-Azhar graduates and the author of many Islamic references) mentioned in his book" the historic roots of the Islamic legislation" those worshiping rituals as:
1) Glorifying Al-Ka'bah, in page 15 2) The pilgrimage and its rituals ,in page 16 3) Month of Ramadan, in page 18 4) The prohibition of the sacred months, in page 18 5) Dignifying Ibrahim and Ismail, in page 18 6) The general congregation in Friday
He added in page15: in spite of the presence of 21 Ka'bahs before Islam in the Arabic peninsula, all the Arab rites agreed to scarify the Ka'bah of Makkah and perform pilgrimage to it in the pre-Islam paganism
Islam came and preserved the scarifying of Al- Ka'bah and the quran had given it many honorable famous names, as in:
Table chapter (Surat Al-Ma'idah') 97:" Allah has made the Ka'bah, the sacred house"
In The simplified Arabic encyclopedia, page 1465 :{ Ka'bah was considered the biggest temple in Korish, and the residence of their idols, the greatest idol was Ella (the moon god) , from it the Islamic proclamation " Allah Akbar" was derived as Ella was the greatest among the idols
Ibrahim and Al- Ka'bah
In quran, in the cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) 127:" Ibrahim and Ishmael were raising the foundations of the House (AL-Ka'bah) Our Lord! Accept from us"
Did Ibrahim build Al- Ka'bah?
Actually this is a very strange and irrational saying, as it is against the history, archaeology and the holy books
The Holy Bible never mentioned that Ibrahim went to the Arabic peninsula in his life, he lived in Palestine, and then he went to Egypt and returned back to Palestine passing by the Sinai desert and he never went there in his travels
In the history books and the old archaeology of the Far East and the Arabic peninsula there was no single mentioning that Ibrahim went to the Arabic peninsula
In the book of "who built the Ka'bah the Muslims' most holy place" by W.L.Cathe, which is a book enriched with detailed maps said: the author concluded that Ibrahim never went to the Arabic peninsula
The Islamic encyclopedia, part 1, page 77 mentioned that:" it was never mentioned that Ibrahim had put the foundations of the House (AL-Ka'bah) and he was not the first Muslim
In the whole Mekkaian chapters (those chapter written in Makkah before the immigration of the prophet) of the quran there were no single mentioning of Ibrahim, but in the madinian chapters (those chapter written in Madina after the immigration of the prophet) the situation is different, as Ibrahim was called "Hannifin Muslim" and the founder of the religion of Ibrahim and he raised the foundations of the House (AL-Ka'bah) with Ishmael the cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) 127
The secret behind that difference between the Mekkaian chapters and the madinian chapters exists in the fact that Mohammed made an alliance with the Jews in Makkah in the beginning, but they showed hostility to him, so he had to find some others, so he thought of the father of all Arabs Ibrahim, so he was able to get rid of the Judaism of his time to create a connection with the Judaism of Ibrahim that became the origin of Islam,
When he was mentally fully occupied with Makkah, then Ibrahim became the founder of the House of God
The pilgrimage
Pilgrimage is one of the essential pillars of Islam; it is derived from the pre-Islam paganism
The word "hajj "itself is derived from "Hack" which means in Arabic language friction as there was a pagan ritual performed at the time of Hajj, in which women were doing friction of their private part by the black stone for enhancing their breeding capabilities (Dr.jawad Ali in his book "the history of Arab before Islam", part 5, page 223)
(This issue will be explained in details in a separate chapter)
In the book "Ka'bah through the history, by Dr; Ali Hassen Al-Kharboutly he wrote:
{The Arabs before Islam were going to Makkah in the season of Hajj (pilgrimage) every year to perform the pilgrimage obligation}
What was the purpose of Pilgrimage in paganism?
In Islamic encyclopaedia, part 11, page 3465:" there were 2 commercial markets every year during the month of Dhu-al-Qa'dah, the first one in Okaz and the second one in Makkah, they were followed in the first few days of Dhu-al-Hijjah by a market, called Dhu-almjaz, those markets following the season of dates collection was connected o the pilgrimage (Hajj), it is called"Mosem al-Hajj"
The word "Mousem" in their language was meaning the fertility festival or " wasm", this word as mentioned in the book "the legendary and the heritage" by Sayed Al-Kemny, page 165: "wasm" or "Mousem" is the word from it "Mousem Al-Hajj "was derived, it means " "moumes" which in Arabic language means prostitute, noticing that there were many prostitutes in Makkah before Islam
In his book, Sayed Al-Kemny said in page 160: inside Al-Ka'bah, there was also the god "hobble" the god of fertility, that's why there were sexual rituals, widely spread in these areas, There were performing group sex seeking fertility as a part of their pagan rituals and they were doing circumambulation around Al-Ka'bah naked
Nowadays they are also doing circumambulation around Al-Ka'bah semi-naked with the origin of that ritual in the paganism epoch
The pilgrimage rituals in the paganism epoch
Arab in the paganism epoch were performing the same rituals, Muslims are performing nowadays
The same rituals, nothing had been altered from it at all
In the book " the historic roots for the Islamic legislation by Dr: Khalil Abdul-Karim, page 16, he recapitulated that rituals in the following:
1) "Al-Talbi'h" the Muslims' saying around the Ka'bah" labbik Al-Lahom labbik" while they are doing the circumambulation 2) " Al-Ihram" the wearing of the special pilgrimage clothes 3) " Al-Hade'" market 4) Stopping by "Arafa" 5) Stoning of the 'jamarat" 6) The slaughtering 7) The walking between the "safa" and " the " marwa" 8) Kissing of the black stone 9) The circumambulation around Al-Ka'bah seven times
They took all the pilgrimage rituals unaltered from the pre-Islam paganism
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It was mentioned about the black stone In Al-Azhar site on the internet under the title (Islamic concepts):
{It is a stone , black in color with a red tinge , has red dots, about 30 centimeter in length and 10 centimeter in width, it is present in the wall on Al- Ka'bah in its south eastern corner , it has a covering and silver belts}
From where did this black stone came?
In Sonan Al-Tourmozy, the pilgrimage chapter .converse number 886 ;{ narrated Ibn Abe Abbas: the black stone came down from the paradise, it was whiter than milk}
It was said that Gabriel brought it down from paradise, it was also said that it appeared after the flooding of Noah ,and Ibrahim put it in that place as a mark for the beginning of circumambulation
Some people have a scientific explanation for that stone, they said: it is a meteoroid came down from the sky and burned before reaching the earth
The Arabic peninsula is full of such meteoroids, it was also said that it came down from the sky and was glowing before it burned, so they considered it as a holy stone being a strange phenomenon
According to history there were many Ka'bahs and All Ka'bahs have such meteoroids inside them, and Al- Ka'bah of Makkah was the one that contained that black stone
Was that stone a holy stone in the paganism epoch?
Definitely, it was a holy stone to the extent that Al- Ka'bah derived its holiness from that stone within it
In the book of (the methodological way for Arabs) by Mahmoud slim Al-Hoot, page 59, he said:{ the Ka'bah in Makkah was a frame for the black stone, and the other Ka'bahs had also similar character, as they were considered houses of gods, in each of them there was the special stone belonging to that god that came down from the sky}
The sanctifying of that stone was because it came from an unknown world, as this meteoroid came down from the sky with such heavenly celebration
That was also affirmed by the simplified Arabic encyclopedia, page 1097, as it said:
The meteor is a small piece of the universal matter entering earth atmosphere in a very fast speed so it burns and looks like a glowing shinning line , that is glowing for a while as a result of the immense friction, it is called the meteoroid Bedouins were sanctifying that miraculous stone in the paganism epoch
But if Bedouins were sanctifying that miraculous stone in the paganism epoch Why do Muslims sanctify it?
Are there any rituals for sanctifying that stone in the paganism epoch?
Definitely, as it was their worshiping place
In the Islamic encyclopedia, part 22, page 6960, it said: the black stone dated to very ancient epochs; it has very glorious stature in the religious rituals for the ancient Arabs
They were circumambulating around Al- Ka'bah that contained the black stone, it was sanctified since very old time
Muhammad followed that old customs when he settled the rituals of his religion and he considered Al- Ka'bah as the center for those rituals
What about the circumambulation?
They were circumambulating around Al- Ka'bah containing the black stone
We will focus the lights on some very exiting and strange rituals as a way of sanctifying that black stone,
In the book of (the methodological way for Arabs) by Mahmoud slim Al-Hoot, page 123 {One of the rituals of pagan pilgrimage was an exciting and amazing ritual, as they were circumambulating around Al- Ka'bah men and women totally naked}
What was the reason for that nudeness?
In the book of "the legendary in quran" , page 16,17 it said:{ that nudeness was for a reason, as there were sexual worshiping rituals taking place inside that Makkahin godly house in the ancient epochs }
In the book of" the father of prophets Ibrahim", by Muhammad hosny abdul-hammid, published in Cairo, page 92, he said:{ there was a pagan ritual performed by women, as they were touching the black stone by their menstrual blood, as the menstrual blood for the ancient pagan was the secret of birth, as they believed that, woman gives the blood and man gives the semen and the spirit is given by god
They were assimilating the first act done by the moon god (Alh) when he slept with the sun god (Alat)
So they were celebrating that occasion as the gods (the moon and the sun) did before, they were doing the same thing again
(See also" the legendary and the heritage" by Sayed Al-Kemny, page 160,162
This was also mentioned in the book of Rites and denominations {Al-Melal Wal-Nahl) by Abe Al-Kasim Al-Shahrestany, page 247, he said :{ there was a ritual that was dominating that time which was the friction of the black stone , taking into consideration its shape\
And the ward Hajj is derived from Hack (in Arabic language it means to do friction}
(That was also mentioned in the book the legendary in quran, page 17, 19)
As the Arabic peninsula was very wide, and there were little people for that vast land, so they were very concerned about breeding, so the infertile women were performing group marriage during that time, as they were going naked during the pilgrimage and were fractioning their private parts with the blood inside it by the black stone, to have its blessing to get pregnant ,as it represented god that gives the spirit
Did Muhammad sanctify the black stone?
Muhammad had preserved the rituals of circumambulation and turning around Al- Ka'bah exactly as in the paganism epoch
The Islamic encyclopedia is saying: we can conclude from what Muslims are performing now that ritual, how it was done before by the pagans
Muhammad was kissing the black stone as a sign of sanctifying it
In Sonan Al-Behiqy , the book of pilgrimage, converse number 9503 :{ narrated Ibn Abbas : the messenger of God when he was taking the black stone, he was kissing it , putting it on his right check ( wasn't he aware that they were putting it into their private parts touching it with their blood?)
He was circumambulating around the black stone seven turns, three turns jumbling like steenbok, and four turns walking as a respect for the stone
In Mosnad Ahmed, Mosnad Abdullah Ibn Al-Abbas, converse number 283: {the messenger of God came into the mosque and he took the stone, people of korish said they are not walking but jumping like steenbok so he did that three times}
What was the attitude of Caliph Omer Ibn al-Khatab towards the black stone?
In Sahih Al-Bokhary, the pilgrimage chapter, converse number 1590:
{Omar challenged Muhammad's kissing of the black stone, he said when he came to kiss it: I know that you are just a stone, you neither harm nor cause any benefit. I wouldnt kiss you if I didn't see the messenger of God doing that}
Omer also challenged Mohammed's jumping while walking around Al- Ka'bah saying: do we do that as hypocrisy for the pagan? (Sahih Al-Bokhary, the pilgrimage chapter, converse number 1605)
Narrated Zoubir Ibn Salem: Omer said to the stone: I know that you are just a stone do you neither harm nor cause any benefit, I wouldnt take you if I didn't see the prophet taking you , we were doing that as hypocrisy for the pagan , now they had been demolished by God , but as the prophet did that we have to do it
We knew the reason why that stone was sanctified by the pagan, but why did Muhammad sanctify it?? That deserves thinking
Was there any single holy reason for that? And if Muhammad's respect for the black stone was a sort of hypocrisy to win the pagan as Omer said , is that befitting a prophet to share with pagans in worshiping their idols? Actually there are hundreds of question marks about that
Mohammed said in a converse that the stone came down from the sky and the quran said those stones came down from sky were for punishment as in:
The elephant chapter (Surat Al-Feel):"Haven't you seen how your Lord dealt with the owners of the elephant. Didn't he make their plot go astray? And sent against them birds, in flocks, striking them with stones of Sijjīl."
Stones were considered from Satan as in many chapters as the pilgrimage chapter (Surat Al-Hajj), the Spoils of War chapter (Surat Al-Anfal), and The Winds that Scatter chapter (Surat Adh-Dhariyat)
So the black stone is now worshiped by Muslims as an idol,
There was an article in Al-Ahram (pyramids) newspaper on 15/8/2004 by Dr. Ahmed Showky Ibrahim saying: we are not kissing the black stone as a costumed ritual, but as obedience for Al-mighty God's commandment
Would Al-mighty God command to perform pagan rituals? Is there any commandment from God to do that?
That was an agreement between the prophet and Makkah to preserve the pilgrimage with all its rituals
And about the throwing of stones (Ramy Al-jamarat) Dr. Ahmed said: that was in the place where Satan tried to prevent Ibrahim fro slaughtering his son!!! Is it possible to stone Satan?
Dr. Ahmed added: the black stone while it was in paradise, it had eyes, mouth and lips, God said to him open your mouth and eat the papers
What were those papers?
It was said that; when God created Adam, he took out of his back every human being he will create thereafter, he said to them: isn't me your God? They replied yes, he said to them then testify by that, and he took the treaties of their testimonies and ordered the angels to put those papers in the mouth of the black stone
Is that stone alive or dead?
Did that stone have a mouth, eyes and lips? And was he fed by the treaties?
Did any Muslim, who went to Makkah, see the eyes and mouth of the black stone?
Where is the legendary from the truth in that?
Millions are going every year to Makkah circumambulating around a stone and they said that Muhammad had terminated the pagan religion, while they are performing a pagan worshiping till now
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Now you can see why I don't argue with the cut and pasters ...they don't want to discuss anything...just to push all their articles at you whether or not they are relevant to any discussion.
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posted
The topic is about the sources of Islam,I didn't change the issue but I prefered to posted one after one to let the readers get the whole infos before the Administrators deleting the topic as they are afraid of Hacking thier site from Muslims Hackers(E-Jihad).
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6-From the Pre-Islam poetry, Hanifian, Sabians Rites
Quotations from the Pre-Islam poetry:
Islam had quoted poetry from Emrie' Al-Q'ies who lived 30 years before Mohammed:
In one of the poems of Emrie' Al-Q'ies he said:
The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder For a spinner that captured my heart I found myself unable to describe it With a sleepy charming look and wonderful eyes The feast passed by me in his adornment he took a sword and killed me With the swards of a destructive look turned me into a dry stubble of fold-builder If he left me for an hour the hour will be a bitter decade The beauty was written on his face with the perfume of Misk The moons kept going in the darkness I saw the night with its moon By "Ad-Duha" and by the night when it is still in its ways
"Ad-Duha" means the forenoon after sun-rise
Those expressions are present literally in the following verses: The Moon chapter (Surat Al-Qamar) 1:" the Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder The Moon chapter (Surat Al-Qamar) 29:"he took a sword and killed her" The Moon chapter (Surat Al-Qamar) 31:" they became like the dry stubble of a fold-builder. The Forenoon chapter (Surat Ad-Duha) 1, 2:" By "Ad-Doha" And by the night, when it is still"
Another poem for Emrie' Al-Q'ies is:
He came and the lovers behind him as if they swiftly swarm from every mound It came in the day of feast in its adornment for like this let the workers work
Those expressions are present literally in the following verses:
The Prophets chapter (Surat Al-Anbiya') 96:"Until, when ya'jūj and Ma'jūj (Gog and Magog), and they swiftly swarm from every mound. "
The rangers' chapter (Surat As-Saffaat) 61:" For like this let the workers work"
Was Muhammad influenced by other people than Emrie' Al-Q'ies?
There were lot of poets in that epoch among them:
Omi'ah Ibn Abe-Alsalat who had a great influence on Muhammad, as he liked his poems very much
- In Sahih Muslim, the poetry book, there are three converses: number 6022, 6023, and 6024 about a man was sitting with the prophet and he asked him do you have any of the poems of Omi'ah Ibn Abe-Alsalat?, the man replied : yes , then recite to me some of them , the prophet said:, the man recited for him one line , he said to him tell me more , the man recited for him another line , he kept saying to him more, till he finished a hundred lines of the poem "so the prophet liked it so much
- In the quran there are quotations from these poems as in:
Omi'ah Ibn Abe-Alsalat said in his poem
The God of All that exist and every land the lord of the firm mountains He built of them seven strong skies without any pillars that you see He formed it and decorated it with a light of the shining sun and the moon And of meteors that are glowing in it
Those expressions are present literally in:
Luqman chapter (Surat Luqman) 10:" He has created the heavens without any pillars that you see and has set on the earth firm mountains, lest it should shake with you.
- In the book of "the poets of Nazarenes, page 227:
Omi'ah Ibn Abe-Alsalat also said in his poem:
To you the thanks and grace and kingdom, our lord Nothing greater than you in glory You ruled over the throne of heaven dominating over all For his glory faces bow down and prostrate He has a veil of light and the light is around him Glowing rivers of light are surrounding him And the angels with their feet under his throne If without God ' palms they would be tired
Those expressions are present in the following verses: Consultation chapter (Surat Ash-Shura) 51:" It is not given to any human being that Allah should speak to him unless by Inspiration, or from behind a veil," The Gathering chapter (Surat Al-Hashr) 24:"He is Allah, the Creator the dominator over His creatures All that is in the heavens and the earths glorify Him"
The Cattle chapter (Surat Al-An'am) 103:" No vision can grasp Him
The Forgiver chapter (Surat Ghafir) 7:"Those angels who bear the Throne"
Were there any other rites besides Judaism and Nazarenism?
There was the Hanifian that was the religion of Ibrahim
What is the meaning of Hanifian?
Hanifa is the religion of Ibrahim; it means those refusing to worship idols Waraqa bin Nofal was a Hanifian before he turned to Nazarenism and also Zaied Ibn Omer , he was worshiping in Ghar Hera, and Muhammad was visiting him there and he learned from him the Arabic writing and reading and took from him some of his poems
This Hanifa is different from the Hanei'fian rite of Islam
That religion was mentioned in many verses in the quran, of them:
The Cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) 135:"Nay we follow only the religion of Ibrahim Hanifa"
The Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 95:" Follow the religion of Ibrahim Hanifa
Women chapter (Surat An-Nisa') 125:" follows the religion of Ibrahim Hanifa"
So it was the religion of Ibrahim as mentioned in the quran
In the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 19:"the religion with Allah is Islam" this verse was originally " the religion with Allah is Hanifa" but when Othman burned the qurans keeping only his quran he changed it in his quran
But In the rest of the qurans as that of Obey Ibn Ka'b and Abdullah Ibn Masoud it was "the religion with Allah is Hanifa"
What was the basis of the Hanifa?
In "the prophetical life story" by Ibn Hesham, page 219:
The basis of the Hanifa was described by Zaied Ibn Amre in his poem:
Is it one God or thousand gods I worship? If they divide things I secluded Alat and Elouza all of them I worship neither Al-'Uzza nor her two daughters Nor the two idols of Bane Amre, neither Hobble who was a god But I worship my lord the most gracious, the most forgiver You should Keep the piety of your God if you keep it, you will never loose The pious people will have the paradise as a home While the disbelievers will have the glowing fire as a recompense
This poem is showing the principles of the Haifa religion which is:
The oneness of God The promise of paradise for the pious and the hell for the disbelievers God being the most gracious, the most forgiver
Muhammad had been greatly affected by Zaied Ibn Omer as he was him for twenty years learning from him What about the Sabians?
Who are those? And what was their effect on Muhammad?
The Sabians religion was among the religions of the Arab peninsula In The Table chapter(Surat Al-Ma'idah') 69:" those who are the Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, whosoever believed in Allah and the Last Day, and worked righteousness, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." About the Sabians Mohammed shukry Al-Boghdady wrote in his book "reaching the goals in the Arabs conditions" (belogh Al-Erab fi-ahwal al-Arab): The Sabians were: - Praying five times per day - Praying for the dead person without prostration - They were Fasting the month of Ramadan for thirty days, and their fasting was related to the moon -Glorifying Al-Ka'bah All of these rituals are exactly the same as in Islam as it took from them its rituals
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posted
i dont see the point of this. The 'source' of Islam is of course the same 'source' as the religion of Moses, (torah), and Jesus (Christianity) that source is GOD.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
The 'source' of Islam, Judaism and Christianity is indeed all the same...man. Along the way, the writers of these religions plagiarised what they could from ancient Egypt and other points of inspiration. The arrogance of believing man knows what 'God' wants would be laughable, if not for the terrible crimes against humanity, encouraged by the distorted ideologies of religion.
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quote:i dont see the point of this. The 'source' of Islam is of course the same 'source' as the religion of Moses, (torah), and Jesus (Christianity) that source is GOD.
I think the point of servant was that Mohamed had quoted all the stories in Quran from different sources as described above and said that's it had revealed from God to him by Gabriel.
Judaism brought new informations to the humans about the creation, Adam and Eve, the devil and angels etc,also Christianity brought new information about the love of the God to us,about the teaching of Jesus and the salvation way.
If you tried to find the sources of the bible you won't find because it gave us a new informations about the universe and the God's nature we couldn't know without the bible.
As per servant prophet of Islam quoted many stories from different sources pre-Islam and made it up as it had revealed to him from God and till now Muslims think that Quran is a miracle because it mentioned unknown stories about previous nations.
Although all these stories are exist in the bible and many legend books but due to the darkening of Islamic media and the non reading of many muslims they considerd Quran as the only first source of all these stories about old prophets and the creation.
This what I understood from the informations of what servant posted in his topic.
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posted
Hummmm I ain't the first one to highlight this issue!
In the Holy Bible it is mentioned in the gospel of Luke 18:25:
"For it is easier for a camel to enter in through a needle's eye, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God".
In the quran in The Heights chapter (Surat Al-A'raf) 40:" Verily, those who belie Our verses and treat them with arrogance, for them the gates of heaven will not be opened, and they will not enter Paradise until the camel goes through the eye of the needle"
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www.carm.org (The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry) propagates the message of christianity at the same time maligns other religions like Islam. See how gently these people let the cat out of the bag and confirm the Quranic verse.
The Glorious Quran says.
"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-" (Quran 4:157)
Conjecture i.e Guesswork, fiction.
The above Quranic verse says that whoever differs in the matter of crucifixion and agrees that Christ (pbuh) was crucified are actually following conjecture(Guesswork,fiction).
See how Carm.org confirms the Quranic verse.
"The Bible contains many different styles of writing such as poetry, narration, fiction, history, law, and prophecy and must be interpreted in context of those styles. It is the source of the Christian religion in that the Bible contains the words of God and how the Christian is to apply the words of God to his life."
posted
quote: Originally posted by loveforever: --------------------------------------------
i dont see the point of this. The 'source' of Islam is of course the same 'source' as the religion of Moses, (torah), and Jesus (Christianity) that source is GOD.
I think the point of servant was that Mohamed had quoted all the stories in Quran from different sources as described above and said that's it had revealed from God to him by Gabriel. Judaism brought new informations to the humans about the creation, Adam and Eve, the devil and angels?etc,also Christianity brought new information about the love of the God to us,about the teaching of Jesus and the salvation way. If you tried to find the sources of the bible you won't find because it gave us a new informations about the universe and the God's nature we couldn't know without the bible. As per servant prophet of Islam quoted many stories from different sources pre-Islam and made it up as it had revealed to him from God and till now Muslims think that Quran is a miracle because it mentioned unknown stories about previous nations. Although all these stories are exist in the bible and many legend books but due to the darkening of Islamic media and the non reading of many muslims they considerd Quran as the only first source of all these stories about old prophets and the creation. This what I understood from the informations of what servant posted in his topic.
really im so sorry and so sad for my self coz i cant got everything have been said in this thread coz of my sick english,i hope that someone who know arabic here can translate for me everything if he have time and ability to do so i can know the details,coz really i hate to be just as blind about something seem so important about my relgion.
however,i'd like to ask one question about(the point of Servant),as i got..,u & him think that Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) had steal from other books and put it in Quran and them came to say its from GOD,so how he did that and he was illiterate means as u sure know (not able to read & write anything),and all jews & unbelievers from his family and his society were knowing that,and then he was from beduien society which most live in tents into the desert,so from what library he got all of this much more deeply knowlge books??,and then the only field for that knowlge as it can be was (Warka ebn Nwofal) because he was the most educated one in this time at Mecca,he was christian so,and he have dead as christian after he informed Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) by his first sign of prophecy,then he dead after that by just few days and all histroy books mention that,and that was before Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) know anything about the Quran too,coz after the first sign he was just so scared,according to all,how he steal from all of this books u have mentioned???!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!how this deep informations come from an illiterate man
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posted
and another point sir,sure u have to know that u will find the same historical stories between Torah,Bible,Quran because we do believe that the three books have coming from one GOD to the earth to lead people to the light of truth,then what is the problem if the history stories in it r same to other books of history,absolutely it must be same,coz 3 tell us the history of earth as it happend,same GOD who telling them,so why it have to be diffrent in Quran???!!!!!!of course it have to be same,coz it coming from one source to remind the people what happend in past whenever they did and forgot about the one holy GOD who created the universe and started to worship stones,islam too is the last relgion so it should be the relgion which include the whole stories from everywhere,its the point for islam not aganist it,do u think ALLAH will telling people story in Bible&Torah then he have to tell another stories in Quran ???!!!!the stories is what happend in real in the ancient ages so its the same,and i repeat,an illiterate man who cant read or write who brought them
Note:u have to know and learn the main classical arabic so so well to understand the miracles of Quran,and u have to go much more deeper for studying islam to know what is the new informations in it about love for everything (GOD,humans,animals,angels..,etc),thats what an educated person have to do before saying anything or quote(copy&paste) anything about any relgion not just islam...,study well and deeper,WELL & DEEPER.
and ya,u mentioned judasim and christianty and how every one got new informations,so do the judasim believe in the new informations which the christianty have got??!!!!!,and why jews wanted so much to put our lord Christ(pbuh) on the cross if they did and believe in what new which christianty have included sir???
in islam we believe in the 3 holy books (Torah,Bible,Quran) and 3 holy prophets (Moses,The Christ,Mohammed) peace be upon them all,every one of them had his own miracle from ALLAH to his people.
and for Mr.Servant,why u have made this thread and u seem so hurry to put it as u mentioned before the adminstrators delete it as u think,is it to say that we r as muslims on a wrong way,or what is the main goal exactly???,im just curious to know..
i wished that i was more deeper into english.., however..,wish for u all nice time.., al salam alykom..
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quote:Originally posted by Hetsho: so how he did that and he was illiterate means as u sure know (not able to read & write anything),and all jews & unbelievers from his family and his society were knowing that,and then he was from beduien society which most live in tents into the desert,so from what library he got all of this much more deeply knowlge books??,
But it's mention in Quran that he was able to write
Sura 25:5 [5] And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he had written: And they are dictated before him morning and evening."
And they were aware that these stories weren't new
Sura 8:31 [31] When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients."
quote:(Warka ebn Nwofal) because he was the most educated one in this time at Mecca,he was christian so,and he have dead as christian after he informed Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) by his first sign of prophecy,then he dead after that by just few days
Christians aren't waiting any prophet to come after Jesus as the word of God is the end,so Warqa wasn't Christian!!
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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posted
Originally posted by freshsoda: -----------------------------------
But it's mention in Quran that he was able to write
Sura 25:5 [5] And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he had written: And they are dictated before him morning and evening." And they were aware that these stories weren't new Sura 8:31 [31] When Our Signs are rehearsed to them, they say: "We have heard this (before): if we wished, we could say (words) like these: these are nothing but tales of the ancients." ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_thats exactly which i was talk about,i put a NOTE in the last post that when u come to Quran u have to be SO deep into main classical arabic(even if u r arabian) to not take the versets by this naiver Superficiality way coz it will mean 2 things,that u r not educated enough to understand the grandiose language(complicated grammer,verbs,Pronouns,Interrogatives,grandiose vocabularies) of the holy Quran,or u understand but u benight who dont understand(i hope u r not anyone from both)
_ now let me complete the verset which u have made ur own opinion on it that Quran mention that Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) was able to read and write,its from Surat AL Furqan (25:5,6,7,8,9)((And they say:"Tales of the ancients, which he has written down, and they are dictated to him morning and afternoon.",,,"Say: "It (this Qur'ān) has been sent down by Him (Allāh) (the Real Lord of the heavens and earth) Who knows the secret of the heavens and the earth.,He is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.",,,"And they say: "Why does this Messenger (Muhammad)eat food, and walk about in the markets (like ourselves). Why is not an angel sent down to him to be a warner with him?,,,"Or (why) has not a treasure been granted to him, or why has he not a garden whereof he may eat?" And the unjust people say: "You follow none but a man bewitched.",,,"See how they coin similitudes for you, so they have gone astray, and they cannot find a (Right) Path".))
_ according to that we can see CLEARLY that those words r a honest DESCRIPTION for a case about how the unbelievers from Prophet Mohammed's(pbuh)society were treating him,and how they were trying to find anything to despise his message just exactly as every unbeliever was doing with his Prophet about his message and ALLAH's words in the whole ancient past,just exactly as the ancient egyptions did with Prophet Moses(pbuh),and as the jews did with The Christ(pbuh) and u can notice(that the christ(pbuh) was providing by great miracles + the bible from ALLAH and jews was supposed to be the worshipers of ALLAH who have been knew since long time that The Christ will come and they should waiting him,and althought of all of that they despise the signs,despise the great miracles,despise the bible,&wanted to kill The Christ(pbuh) himself),so how u can use this descprition of what happend between Prophet Mohammed people & him as an evidence that he was able to read & write!!!!!!!!!!,i cant understand really but that as i said share that u migh didnt understand the words well or u benight.
_let me give u sir an example from Bible in the book of Luke,(23:2) ((And they,saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King))..,according to ur way in making opinions sir now we might then say that the Bible MENTION that The Christ(pbuh) was a perverter!!!!!..,is it possible to take the description of what happend between the unbelievers and their Prophets,& take the accusment from them to him as an evidence that it was the real thing???!!!!!!!
_they(the unbelievers) have been describe their Prophets by everything the can to deny their messages,they called Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) a liar,and in same they were calling him before the message(the honest,the curtor),they called him crazy,they called him poet,they said that he bewitched,and finally when they didnt find anything to accuse him by it else,they called him MAGICAN and accuse Quran is a magic from ancient ages,,ALLAH says in Quran:((Leave Me Alone (to deal) with whom I created Alone(refers to al walid ebn al moghira al makhzomi),,,And then granted him resources in abundance,,,And children to be by his side,,,And made life smooth and comfortable for him,,,After all that he desires that I should give more,,,Nay! Verily, he has been stubborn and opposing Our Ayāt (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.),,,On him I shall impose a fearful doom,,,he thought and plotted,,,So let him be cursed! How he plotted,And once more let him be cursed,how he plotted,,,Then looked he,,,Then he frowned and he looked in a bad tempered way,,,Then turned he away in pride,,,Then he said: "THIS IS NOTHING BUT MAGIC FROM THAT OF OLD".)) Surat Al Moddathir (74:11,12,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22,23,24),,now can u say that the Quran mention "that it is_Quran_an magic from old age"!!!!!.if u can sir then okay go on in taking ur evidences by this way,its ur own busniuss,but dont forgot then to remake ur opinions again about every book u have red.
_and about the Prophet Mohammed(pbuh) illiterate or not,i wont giving u versets from Quran or from arabian or islamic historical books which prove that coz u wont going to believe me anyway if i did so i'll be away from giving u informations through them,i'll just tell u to go and read the book (story of civilization) for (Will Durant) in the parts 13 & 14,see what he did say about that,and i note,he was an american historian who is not muslim and he might not believe in islam too,may that will help u sir.
_about the point of new stories in Quran,i had talk about that in the last post but i guess u ignored it sir,however,i hope that who is going to talk about Quran or islam,to study it deeply and well without prior opinions then if he wanna talk and discuss he can do through deep objectively looking not through Superficiality looking which mixed by just copy & paste from other opinions,again,thats which supposed to happen when the educated people come to study ANY relgion. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Christians aren't waiting any prophet to come after Jesus as the word of God is the end,so Warqa wasn't Christian!! [/QB] ------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_u have what u believe and i have mine,thats the point,there should be diffrence thats why there r jews,christians,muslims,hindus,etc..,im not forcing u to believe in what i do,however,i'll not going to talk in this point lots coz it will lead me to another topic which i have no ability,no enough knowlge and no good language sure to talk about it,but i'll just mention a verset of Quran ((And remember when Mūsa (Moses) said to his people: "O my people! Why do you hurt me while you know certainly that I am the Messenger of Allāh to you? So when they turned away (from the Path of Allāh), Allāh turned their hearts away (from the Right Path)And Allah guideth not the evil-living folk,,,And remember when 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary), said: "O Children of Israel! I am the Messenger of Allāh unto you confirming the Taurāt (Torah) which came before me, and giving glad tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmed(Mohammed).But when he came to them with clear proofs, they said: "This is clear magic."))Surat AL Ssaff (61:5,6)..,from here my words was about (Warqa Ebn Nawfal),we know he was christian and he dead as a christian,anyhow,u can watch about this too in (Story of Civilization) for (Will Durant) which i mentioned before,and i repeat he was an american historian who is non muslim(non arabian) and seem dont believe in islam as relgion from GOD too,but he refers to this facts which we r talk about them here in his book(as i said,im away from using arabian or islamic books).
u know,the girl whom i love is not muslim too,once she said to me:"not every muslim same as other and not every christian same as other",maybe in genral they seem same,but in how long is the range of faith,and in their views for things,u will always find diffrence,her words r pretty much right..,right?
wish for u nice time.., al salam alykom..,
Posts: 712 | Registered: Sep 2006
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can any of you who are non-believers in the final revelation bring textual proof instead of sheikh nobody ever heard of this dude said. where did sheikh idont know what the hell im talikng about get his info.
-------------------- لا اله الا الله و محمد الرسول الله Posts: 495 | From: anchorage, alaska | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Hetsho: and another point sir,sure u have to know that u will find the same historical stories between Torah,Bible,Quran because we do believe that the three books have coming from one GOD to the earth to lead people to the light of truth,
Torah is part of Bible might be you meant Injeel or Gospels but there is no historical stories in Gospels quoted from Torah to remind people again and again as you think to justify the quotation of Quran from Bible, Injeel narrates Jesus's life and the salvation way that's it beside Jesus on the cross said "It is finished "(John 19:30) So it means it's over, God revealed himself in the beginning through prophets till he finally sent his word into human flesh as Jesus and this was the end of revelation and if you believe that Jesus came as predicted about him before so neither Jews nor Christians are waiting anybody to come after Jesus as they believe he is the savior which anybody after him is without value, you can ask any Jew or Christian in the world if he still waiting anybody to come after Messiah regardless his first coming ,so don't just stick Islam by glue to previous religions to justify your faith same as Baha'ia,Ahmediya,Yazidiya,Druze they want to attribute to Islam to give themselves an ORIGINS and legitimate their faith but the opinion of Islam on them that they are Heretics and don't belong to Islam even by getting the same prophets and same stories !!
quote:Originally posted by Hetsho: let me give u sir an example from Bible in the book of Luke,(23:2) ((And they,saying, We found this fellow perverting the nation, and forbidding to give tribute to Caesar, saying that he himself is Christ a King))..,according to ur way in making opinions sir now we might then say that the Bible MENTION that The Christ(pbuh) was a perverter!!!!!..,
No we can't say that because Jesus proved his claims by many miracles and signs so he put back the tongues in mouths and who didn't believe had no excuse, while my example on the ability of p. Muhammad to write came from Sura 25:5 if he was illiterate people couldn't accuse him by writing down the revelation .
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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of course it make me so sad about copy/pasters in this forum ,I was trying to avoid as much as I can posting how legislation was made in Quran,oviously I will write it right now.
Of course ,there is no one true statement in the above person who called him self SERVANT!!!!
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by ** Ahmad**: of course it make me so sad about copy/pasters in this forum...Of course ,there is no one true statement in the above person who called him self SERVANT!!!!
You said there is no one true statement but what about only those few examples.
1) The story of the creation:, Mentioned in the book of genesis chapter 1 " In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" And also in the cattle chapter (Surat Al-An'am) 73:"It is he who has created the heavens and the earth"
2) The creation of the world in six days Mentioned in the book of genesis chapter 1 And also in iron chapter (Surat Al-Hadid) 4:" it is him who created the heavens and the earth in six Days"
3) Adam and Eva: In the book of genesis chapter 1: 26, 2:18 And in the cow chapter (Surat Al-Baqarah) 30 and the next verses
4) The story of Cain and Abel In the book of genesis chapter 4, And also mentioned in the quran but he called Cain as Cabell but Cain is the original Hebrew word
5) Noah and the flooding It was mention in the quran but it said that one of Noah's sons perished, which was not mentioned in the Holy Bible, as all of Noah's sons were saved..
6) The annunciation of the angel to Zakaria:
Mentioned in Mary chapter (Surat Maryam) in the quran and in the gospel of Luke in the Holy Bible
7) Virgin Mary and the annunciation of the angel to her:
Mentioned in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) in the quran and in the gospel of Luke in the Holy Bible
8) Miracles of the Christ:
As creation, giving sight to the blind and reviving from death
In the gospel of Matthew: "healing every disease and every sickness among the people"
In the quran in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 49: I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I bring the dead to life"
9) The Jewish' denial of the Christ:
In the gospel of Matthew 26:4:" They took counsel together that they might take Jesus by deceit, and kill him"
In the quran in the Family of Imran chapter (Surat Aal-'Imran) 54:"And they plotted and Allah plotted too. And Allah is the Best of the plotters"
With the difference that in the Holy Bible it was not said that God is plotter, as this could never be
10) The Christ' ascension up to the sky In the gospel of Mark:" So then the Lord Jesus, after he had spoken to them, was received up into heaven" In the quran, in the women chapter (Surat An-Nisa') 158:" But Allah raised him up unto Himself"
Do you know what that means Ahmad?? Quran quoted the same stories which were written by humans in the bible, as for example story of Mary and Jesus, were written in Gospels by Mark, Matthew, Luke and John 600 years before Quran, then Muhammad quoted the same stories and rephrased them in poems style then said they were revealed to him through angel Gabriel!! So you should be sad when you found that Muhammad who started the copy paste. Posts: 222 | From: Heaven | Registered: Jul 2006
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