quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Something to think about Chinderella. The brutalize women and hold them in an inferior social position. They have a zero sum philosophy that says we get everything and you get nothing. They are involved in a brutal terror campaign and say its OK to kill the infidel. One has to wonder what side they are really on. They produce nothing but poverty for their people. Think about it.
Historically speaking, it was known how brutal & greedy the white man was & obvioulsy still is.... slaughter all those who had darker skin or were different
Adam, Eve and all the rest of men Threw away the chart of holy life, And becoming Satan's cruel children, Waste the world in ceaseless strife. Europe's sons are foremost now in craft. Man designs to crust) the higher self: With their politics and racial graft They sail o'er the world in hunt of pelf. Mussolini's creed of grab and take Was at first the Roman's highest law; But, right now all life is set to stake If the brutal human stroke has flaw. Day by day we see the white man's sin Making all the world a living hell, Not a place for good to enter in, No, except through burning shot and shell. When the God of all made thinking man, Placing him on earth to dwell in love, Angels hoped to see the human clan Blessing God, the gracious King above. Fight to kill, is watchword of the day: White men have no other human urge: They have ceased to worship God, to pray; But they glory in the sinful surge. Robbing all the lands beyond the sea, Making slaves and beating children, too, White men claim that they are great and free, Much more great than ravished me and you.
-1935
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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Demania, They are the losers in history and are today. They blame ANYBODY for their problems but themselves.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: The Pope was historically correct.
The Pope was not historically correct.
In his latest speech, he quoted 14th century Byzantine emperor Manuel II Paleologos, whose empire was about to fall to the Turks, as arguing "Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
Did he really figure no one would notice what he had to say, especially when his next planned papal visit was to Turkey? Even if you find the quote "undeniably true" (why should you be expected to know anything about Islam, after all?), what did the Pope hope to gain by using it?
The Pope's latest speech hasn't been his only controversial address in Germany, of course.
His attacks on Science (which he said "has vainly sought to make God unnecessary in the universe and hence to man himself"), atheism (founded on "fear of judgment" by God), and secularism summon up images of the Church comdemning Galileo.
And his insistence that science and technology alone can't stop AIDS or other social ills, that faith must come first if AIDS is to be stopped, are meant to remind us of the Church's position that chastity and marital fidelity are the only responses to a public health crisis like AIDS deemed morally acceptable.
He went to Hollocaust camp and failed to apologize as a Christian and "man of God" that Catholic Church was involved in genocide in Germany.
In one year he has managed to piss on science, atheism, secular society, medical treatment of AIDS, and now Islam.
Don't you remember all those books that were burned because Church was promoting Hitler. Plus, If you haven't know - Hitler was at that time considered 'very religous' in the eyes of Church in Germany.
If I further research on involvement of Church in evil, I could probably come up with tons of links for you.
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sharon, You are all over the road here. The comment that Islam was established across the region at the point of a sword was correct. That is the part most people seem to have zoomed in on. The Pope made the statement because radical Islam is a disease on the face of the modern world. Its like a beautiful woman who wakes up one day and finds sores breaking out all over her body. The statement , in itself, was not only correct but needed to be said.
As for the Catholic church being "involved in genocide" that is just jibberish. You cannot show me a shred of factual eveidence that that was the case. Hitler was not religious and as far as I know never set foot in any church. Even so, Islamic Imams share many of his social views and they claim to be religious. You may be aware of the comments in iran that Israel needs to be wiped off the face of the earth.
Problems in the Catholic church are well documented but the most startling were centuries ago.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Demania, They are the losers in history and are today. They blame ANYBODY for their problems but themselves.
Arrow, you are the equivalent of muslim fundamentalists of the west No doubt about that
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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I have been explained that the point the pope was making (despite his autistic academic display in his new role, just setting people up) was the connection between God and reason (in Islam and Christianity for that matter), the hellenistic addition to draw back from the 'irrationality' of the Jewish or Abrahamic God that ordered so many wars (in Quaran and Bible). We should not believe God to be irrational or beyond reason. In fact, when God would contradict reason we should beware of our human mindtraps. Debatable but honourable to.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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All the three religions are the same with minor difference but they are equal
Islam, Christianity & Judiasm
If you hate the Jews.... you cant say that Judiasm is bad If you hate muslims.... you cant say that islam is bad If you hate christians... you cant say Christianity is bad
Makes sense?
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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Defending the Pope's right to express his views in one matter but Arrow's argument falters when he tries to imply the Catholic church has never been involved in any wrongdoing. In the early nineties, The World Council of Churches clearly highlighted the Catholic church as having contributed to the horror of Rwanda.
Historically, the Catholic Church has blood on its hands. If Arrow is Catholic or Christian, that is disappointing, as I thought the church was trying to move on from a culture of denial and embrace its mistakes more openly.
Such polarised views make me dislike religion more each day. I am sick of the 'Your God is not as nice as my God' mentality so often expressed by self declared tolerant people.
On this forum, I see people trying to interpret tolerance in texts where non was intended. Others gleefully quote shameful lines, advocating violence and oppression. When Arrow attacks Muslims, the less enlightened respond in kind, condemning all Americans and the west. That makes them no better than the person they condemn.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: If you hate religious books and their followers you are agnostic.
This is simply untrue. It is also unfair. Agnostics, I would define as those who are unconvinced about the existence of deities and religion generally. To state that agnostics hate all religious texts is wrong.Agnostics certainly don't hate the followers of religion either.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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No Cinderella, you just assumed another generalization we all make once in awhile. God's groundpersonnel, it is not God but his priests that make the religion look bad etcetera.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Defending the Pope's right to express his views in one matter but Arrow's argument falters when he tries to imply the Catholic church has never been involved in any wrongdoing. In the early nineties, The World Council of Churches clearly highlighted the Catholic church as having contributed to the horror of Rwanda.
Historically, the Catholic Church has blood on its hands. If Arrow is Catholic or Christian, that is disappointing, as I thought the church was trying to move on from a culture of denial and embrace its mistakes more openly.
Such polarised views make me dislike religion more each day. I am sick of the 'Your God is not as nice as my God' mentality so often expressed by self declared tolerant people.
On this forum, I see people trying to interpret tolerance in texts where non was intended. Others gleefully quote shameful lines, advocating violence and oppression. When Arrow attacks Muslims, the less enlightened respond in kind, condemning all Americans and the west. That makes them no better than the person they condemn.
I agree with that post
And I want to clarify that I do not comdemn all the west..... I was simply responding to Arrow's post when he comdemned all muslims & Islam.
I have western origins & friends .... so how can i condemn them all?
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: No Cinderella, you just assumed another generalization we all make once in awhile. God's groundpersonnel, it is not God but his priests that make the religion look bad etcetera.
I made no generlaizations... I simply wanted to explain that for instance, if somebody hated muslims... that does not mean that Islam is a bad religion
Arrow is the one generalizing & hating Muslims & Islam
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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Religion to me is inspired but manmade, people are responsible for the way they present their religion. It is not an objective in itself. In general I believe it not advisable to hate a group of people. It is a generalization. But I don't want to nitpick with you, I know what you mean.
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SayWhat, I don't think I said the catholic church was never involved in wrongdoing. I did say that the Catholic Church was not "involved" in the holocaust. i do not see catholic clergy involved in, sponsoring and advocating global terror and war with the west. I do see muslim religious leaders doing that on a large scale. And no, i am not Catholic.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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My point wasn't directed at you...just a gereral observation. I see that you have friends in west and east, as do I. Chinderella's point on religion is also clear - directing blame at those who follow religions, not religion itself.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Arrow, ah, your point related to the holocaust. Thanks for clarifying that.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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The catholic church was involved in the holocaust. One of their bishop's set up an organisation, later on acknowledged by the pope to look out for good 'anti-communists' helping the perpetrators of the holocaust flee the country and settle in the ME and South-America. They prevented justice for the victims of those nazi-criminals. that is how they were involved. But they indeed did not advocate genocide or violence to the Jewish people or other parties involved.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: If you hate religious books and their followers you are agnostic.
This is simply untrue. It is also unfair. Agnostics, I would define as those who are unconvinced about the existence of deities and religion generally. To state that agnostics hate all religious texts is wrong.Agnostics certainly don't hate the followers of religion either.
Agnostics are actually smart folks who actually 1) believe in existence of God/Nature/Creator or (call it however it pleases you) but they doubt that 2) religion is 100% "undeniable Truth" that is written by God or that it comes from God as some kind of - absolute truth that can never be CHALLENGED.
Agnostics would say - We can't really say Pope is "man of God" because this can never be scientifically proven; neither such authority should ever be given to a human being to act as if in authority of God.
Same example is with "Israel is a Holly Nation". Agnostics would say - Israel is not a "Holly Nation" because "Holly Nation" doesn't make wars and kill innocent (let’s remember Lebanon). So what kind of mind could in fact believe that Israel is in fact "Holly Nation" after this evidence?
Even though there are more Agnostics than "religious" people in the world, people still use religion as "God's word" to harm others and justify it again with God. Agnostics are against such power because they know it benefits only people in question, it's highly political and have nothing to do with God, peace and love; neither has it benefited the common good.
Agnostics would also say - Pope is not a "man of God" and he has no authority to represent what God would want Christians to believe ... but Religion gives him that authority ( not God really ) and he uses this to insult billions of believers including those of other religions.
How about Priests who abuse children, are they also "men of God" - special folks who somehow obtained God's authority? Agnostics question this as well, and are often searching for answers to bunch of religious inconsistencies.
Atheists - in the other hand do not believe in existence of God/Nature/Creator at all.
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sharonstone's perception of agnostic thought is much more accurate than Demiana's misinformed opinion. Some religious people demand respect, yet don't even take the trouble to understand opposing beliefs.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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They can demand all they want but if they get respect they have to earn it. People in the west are not interested in their 'demands.'
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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The unequivocal and emphatic answer is NO! The Qur'an declares:
"Let there be no compulsion (or coercion) in the religion (Islam). The right direction is distinctly clear from error." (2:256)
Here is a good study of the question of the spread of Islam by a Christian missionary, T. W. Arnold:
"...of any organized attempt to force the acceptance of Islam on the non-Muslim population, or of any systematic persecution intended to stamp out the Christian religion, we hear nothing. Had the caliphs chosen to adopt either course of action, they might have swept away Christianity as easily as Ferdinand and Isabella drove Islam out of Spain, or Louis XIV made Protestantism penal in France, or the Jews were kept out of England for 350 years. The Eastern Churches in Asia were entirely cut off from communion with the rest of Christiandom throughout which no one would have been found to lift a finger on their behalf, as heretical communions. So that the very survival of these Churches to the present day is a strong proof of the generally tolerant attitude of Mohammedan [sic] governments towards them" (8).
Islam does not teach, nor do Muslims desire, conversion of any people for fear, greed, marriage or any other form of coercion.
In conclusion, jihad in Islam is STRIVING IN THE WAY OF ALLAH by pen, tongue, hand, media and, if inevitable, with arms. However, jihad in Islam does not include striving for individual or national power, dominance, glory, wealth, prestige or pride. Posts: 1007 | From: http://www.sultan.org | Registered: Mar 2006
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Sultan, Lets not let history and scholarship get in the way of our religious views.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: As for the Catholic church being "involved in genocide" that is just jibberish. You cannot show me a shred of factual eveidence that that was the case. Hitler was not religious and as far as I know never set foot in any church.
Are you saying that Muslims feel free to use violence as dictated by their faith, and Christains do not?
The fact is there are Christians who have acted violently in the name of Christianity, and there are religius leaders in the past who have not only encouraged this but have participated in bloody campaigns to Christianize the populations all over the world.
Hitler was a Christain and his religious beliefs and fanaticism in "Mein Kampf" were an influence of Christianity on him and others and its role in World War II. As a boy, Hitler attended to the Catholic church, and in Mein Kampf, Hitler reveals himself as a fanatical believer in God and country.
1) Hitler wrote (quotes from Mein Kampf) : "I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord.."
2) "My feelings as a Christian points me to my Lord and Savior as a fighter. It points me to the man who once in loneliness, surrounded by a few followers, recognized these Jews for what they were and summoned men to fight against them and who, God's truth! was greatest not as a sufferer but as a fighter.
In boundless love as a Christian and as a man I read through the passage which tells us how the Lord at last rose in His might and seized the scourge to drive out of the Temple the brood of vipers and adders. How terrific was His fight for the world against the Jewish poison. To-day, after two thousand years, with deepest emotion I recognize more profoundly than ever before the fact that it was for this that He had to shed His blood upon the Cross.
As a Christian I have no duty to allow myself to be cheated, but I have the duty to be a fighter for truth and justice... And if there is anything which could demonstrate that we are acting rightly it is the distress that daily grows. For as a Christian I have also a duty to my own people."
-Adolf Hitler, in a speech on 12 April 1922 (Norman H. Baynes, ed. The Speeches of Adolf Hitler, April 1922-August 1939, Vol. 1 of 2, pp. 19-20, Oxford University Press, 1942)
3) "Their sword will become our plow, and from the tears of war the daily bread of future generations will grow." -Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf)
Christianity does promote war as well - obviously, and many wars were justified based on theories of Christianity not based on FACTS.
During the 1930s Hitler also tried to nationalize Germany's churches (German Christian), with restrictions allowing only German membership. Only some Protestants resisted by forming the Confessing Church.
*** Pope clearly quoted the statement in order to call Islam evil, not because he was intending to promote peace, love and harmony.
Posts: 83 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Sharon, I do agree with you that christianity has its dark periods but most of them are in the distant past. The reformation was the beginning of the end for christian involvment in politics at a high level. You may be aware that the 18th century Enlightenment was a reaction against the church holding substantial power in government. It seems to me that you are trying to imply that if Muslims are doing this they are not alone. they are alone NOW.....christianity is not promoting a world wide terror campaign, jihad....much of Islam is.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Demiana: If you hate religious books and their followers you are agnostic.
This is simply untrue. It is also unfair. Agnostics, I would define as those who are unconvinced about the existence of deities and religion generally...
Agnoistic by definition isn't even convinced about the non existence of God as well. As for religions, many agnostics believe that agnosticism is a religion by itself.
While the ones who early defined agnosticism didn't believe in God and were closer to atheism than theism, with time the terminology developed to absorb theists who believe in God but don't think there are enough proofs for his existence and those are called "Agnostic theism" which is the opposite of "agnostic atheism" or as some call them "weak atheists".
There are also strong agnostics which refer to those who don't think there are enough proofs for the existence or the non existence of God and that such proofs can never be attained anytime, while light or weak agnostics are the ones who believe it's possible for such convincing knowledge to exist in the future.
Personally, I went between different categories of agnosticsim and still believe one will always be agnostic about many things in life and it's our mission to look for the eveidence and truth.
Posts: 1539 | Registered: Apr 2006
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''Personally, I went between different categories of agnosticsim and still believe one will always be agnostic about many things in life and it's our mission to look for the eveidence and truth.'' Lazeez
I agree, the truth is always worth striving for.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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for sharonstone and all here... i just read this article... its written by former catholic nun, she is writing alot abt different religions... seems interesting...
Karen Armstrong, Monday September 18, 2006, The Guardian http://www.guardian .co.uk/comment/ story/0,, 1874653,00. html
Posts: 119 | From: Poland, US, Egypt, Australia... anywhere | Registered: Sep 2006
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Muslimman, interesting article, demonstrating how the Pope's recent speech has been savaged by some western journalists. Thanks for posting. Salam.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: Sharon, I do agree with you that christianity has its dark periods but most of them are in the distant past. The reformation was the beginning of the end for christian involvment in politics at a high level. You may be aware that the 18th century Enlightenment was a reaction against the church holding substantial power in government. It seems to me that you are trying to imply that if Muslims are doing this they are not alone. they are alone NOW.....christianity is not promoting a world wide terror campaign, jihad....much of Islam is.
What terror campaign, isn't the war in Lebanon a terror campaign supported by the west, isn't the war in Afganestain, Iraq a terror campaign, bosnia .. and guaintanamu a terror camp ! "if you promote for something then don't you cross its boarders (aren't those people in Guantanamu humans having human rights "Which we lake here but it is free in the west"). What is terror campaign!? It is not related to christianity "it is far from christianity and we have always known this, just tell me when the crusade was invading us what was the christians in our land treated like", the issue is that it is related to your actions not our. The west enlightment we don't need it here we haven't been like what you were before and we are not your fanatic picture of evil that you are painting for us and believing it more and more with time, we are not your mistakes or we didn't fall in it, so just don't try to clone yourself here nor do you need to make us your absolute figure of evil. Currently, we agree with you in many aspects in the western society and we disagree in some .. at least we can build some kind of communication through this if you really want but if you want to fight your evil enemy .. believe me you are building it now but still it is not evil (I hope it won't even be evil but believe me for sure are building an enemy), it is your actions that will bring it back to you.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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you are free to believe whatever you wish bibo but we are not going to allow Iran to control the midle east. That is the issue in Iraq, Lebanon and the other hot spots in the region. That we may not agree with many of your social/political positions is not the cause of the problem.
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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I don't care about that, it is totally out of my point and the discussion, but let me assume that lebanon is related to Iran, what does war on Iraq have with Iran it was far before the nuclear issue.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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I see that you have friends in west and east, as do I. Chinderella's point on religion is also clear - directing blame at those who follow religions, not religion itself.
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