posted
No I’m not crazy, And yes I’m for real. I’m not depressed, And I’m not controlled. I’m not a fashion slave, Nor am I any man’s toy, I have my own opinions, And I have my own life. I have many friends, I have a personality. And I have my say, I also have a word or two, For those whose thinking is astray. I don’t care if he likes my hair, Nor do I care for leather pants. I think I’m beautiful, Because God don’t make trash, I also believe that covering myself Is also respecting my body and my mind. Just because you don’t know if my hair Is red or black? Or exactly how tight my jeans are, Doesn’t mean I’m not me, And don’t have a personality. Only those who I chose, Will see the outer me, And everyone one will see the inner me. I’ll voice my thoughts, And I’ll give my ideas. Whether you believe I have any or not. I speak silently, And not just anyone will hear my voice, But everyone will hear what I say, And what I believe in. I’ll walk with my head high, Without making a sound, And everyone will see me. My dress stops you from Judging me by my body or my clothes. And forces you to judge me By my thoughts and my ideas. Not everyone will see my face, But everyone will see its glow. And not anyone can shake my hand, But everyone will feel my firm hold. Not everyone can ask what he wants, But they all know what I would say. I have a life, And I’m respected everywhere I go. Boys don’t bug me nor do they stare. Because they have nothing to stare at, But they are forced to look at me. I am me, And when I go out I’m covered in black. Not a thing will show. Not my hands not my hair. But my thoughts, and my ideas will. And when you see me, You’ll laugh and stare, Because my hair isn’t showing. And you can’t see my face. You’ll think I’m crazy or depressed. But no. Only you are for being so ignorant. So there.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mido, can you please explain further what you mean when you say"many muslim countries link the failure of muslim countries to western secularism"?
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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Mido:''I see we are going circular! What's the scope of the law which I'm ignoring?
If a group of people who find nothing wrong with marriage between brothers and sisters wanted to have legal relationship...What exactly in this law can stop them? and Why should they be stopped from enjoying this right? Is it the majority culture ?''
Mido, I suggested you reference the legal framework I referred to, before repeating the same simplistic, inaccurate arguments. You have misconstrued a point in The Human Rights Act -'The Right To Privacy' and projected it into a licence for incest and child abuse. Let me try and make this as simple as possible for you. In Egypt and in the UK, incest, child abuse and murder is against the law. Correct? Yes. Europe adopting The Human Rights Act is an additional protection, to existing law, no more, no less.
The summary of the Human Rights Act, which I quoted earlier included Article 8 - the right to respect for private and family life, home and correspondence. These rights must be in accordance with the law and any objections must be legitimate. Examples of breach of privacy include illegal phone tapping, publication of photographs, bugging of people by the police. You somehow turn privacy issues into a green light for pedophilia and incest. You have grasped one point - privacy and made it into a circular argument.Your assumption is not only mistaken, it is ridiculous.
Mido: ''Also, Why under the same act of protecting the rights of minorities and their privacy, relationships like incest and pedophilia can't be allowed?''
Regarding views on SA, you don't have to live there to have an opinion. Much of this thread has been about women's rights and comparing eastern values with western ones. There are faults with Muslim and western countries. I asked the question about Christian taxes as I have seen it on this forum. I didn't express a view, simply asked the question. Yet again, you chose to deflect it.
Mido, '"Yes! Because Muslims, Christians, and all people who follow any faith in the UK are not responsible for the good or the bad that's happening in other countries where majority are Christians or Muslims or whatever''
I didn't say they were. They can have an opinion though, surely?
''My question is where do we draw the line in any society as to what's acceptable and what's not? If the west can apply restriction sometimes on what the majority find unacceptable, why can't the east or Muslim countries do the same?''
My initial point was that the UK is far more tolerant of minorities, in a way predominantly Muslim states are not. In order to emphasise that point, comparisons had to be made. Minorities are accepted in the west, including religious ones and have equal rights to majority citizens. They also have redress, as do all citizens, if they feel the law is unfair. There is room for adaptation and integration. The majority of British people are not in favour of homosexuality, I suspect. Even so, this minority group has won civil partnership rights now. I used this as an illustration of my point regarding majority views versus minority rights.
Of course, a culture, established over thousands of years will have laws which reflect majority culture. The difference is that the UK is willing to adapt, be flexible, tolerant and grant minorities the rights they would be denied in many other countries.
Many Muslim countries aren't even willing to examine the lines around what is acceptable and what is not, in answer to your question. All too often Islamic states seem happy to disregard minority rights, in favour of the majority. It would be refreshing to see this change.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by concernedforwomen: Aiysha, Covering the body is a form of liberation if you do it by choice. By the same token, uncovering a little bit is not oppression if you do not go and get topless and let men put you on a stage for display. You can be in between, not uncovered, but covered enough to be modest. It is not immoral to cover up, only immoral to go naked.
that is what I, cinderella and WOTEVER have all been trying to say!! the women in niqab or hijab do it BY CHOICE so leave them to that choice. Arrow, however, has wanted it stopped as HE sees it as oppresive, whereas he cant seem to see that if its stopped THAT is a form of oppression for women who CHOOSE to wear it.
I suppose this will never be resolved really as there will always be hijabis and niqabis who choose of their own free will to cover up and there will always be those that see that as oppressive and forced no matter how many times they are told BY these women they choose to dress that way. By the same token there will always be women who have to show flesh to feel good about themselves and will see that as liberation to them but to a covered woman it will still be seen as a form of oppression. But the difference is that the covered woman will not be banging on to get the uncovered ones covered up and liberate them whereas these uncovered women........................no wait a minute, its actually more MEN who want to uncover those covered women isnt it?
All we are saying is leave them to wear what they want, LIVE AND LET LIVE we keep saying, No you have to be liberated they keep saying! WE DONT WANT YOUR LIBERATION. WE WANT TO BE COVERED. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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again, that would be the same for the KKK folks as well. They could say, "we just want to wear what we want."
Posts: 904 | From: Texana | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: again, that would be the same for the KKK folks as well. They could say, "we just want to wear what we want."
you are comparing civilian veiled peaceful women to a group of killers & terrorists? You're comparison doesnt make any sense......... You're hate keeps failing your common sense
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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I also like to see atleast the face on the person im talking to. If these women go into politic i think they should "tone down" their religion/symbols and focus on politic insted.
Some might argue that KKK is a political organisation and not a terrorgroup like Hamas-Hisbollah. (dont like either of them....)
Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
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K.K.K IS A FASCIST, NEO NAZI, SO CALLED'WHITE' POWER GROUP.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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No I dont have any kind of sympathy with KKK at all. They are ignorant fouls......
Posts: 1215 | From: Nowhere | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe: I also like to see atleast the face on the person im talking to. If these women go into politic i think they should "tone down" their religion/symbols and focus on politic insted.
Some might argue that KKK is a political organisation and not a terrorgroup like Hamas-Hisbollah. (dont like either of them....)
Im sorry but Hisbullah are heroes & honest people..... they defended their own country
KKK are not heroes
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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AND WHO DOES JACK STRAW THINK HE IS? HE SAID AFTER ALL WHEN MEN AND WOMAN GO TO PERFORM HAJJ THEY WALK AROUND WITH NOTHING ON THEIR HEADS.
SALMAN RUSHIDIE HAS NOW JUMPED ON THE BAND WAGON. A WOMAN WAS SPAT ON IN THE STREET WHILE SHE WAS WITH HER KIDS FOR WEARING A BURKKHA.
ANOTHER GUY TRIED TO REMOVE A WOMANS NIQAB - JACK STRAW SAID YOU HAVE TO REMOVE IT - THAT WAS HIS DEFENCE.
I DON'T COMMENT THAT I'D LIKE ALL PEOPLE TO REMOVE THEIR PIERCINGS WHEN TALKING TO ME, OR FOR TO MEN DROP THEIR TROUSSERS WHEN TALKING TO ME.
PERSONAL CHOICE AND FREEDOM.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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omg why all this burka and hijab without media we be oH so **** look at another angle old woman gets mugged by asian and then stamped on and then shouted allah akbar its visa versa in my book im muslim and we are goint to far now me suspressed anh i go wIf the flow dont like me then PASS ...LET JACK STRAW HAVE HIS DAY DONT WE HAVE OUR SAY IVE NEVER KNOWN ANY ONE SINGLE FAITH IS THIS COUNTRY TO DO SO MANY MARCHES ON EVERY TIME SUMTHING IS SAID ,,..YOU SEE IHAD MY SAY NOW .....
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by ARROW99: again, that would be the same for the KKK folks as well. They could say, "we just want to wear what we want."
KKK CAN wear what they want, no one said they cant if they want to.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Probably because not any one single faith has been attacked so much before My name.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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REMEMEBR MEDIA HAS NEVER HAD IT SO GOOD ,,YOU HEAR MORE NOW THAN EVER SO LOOK AT HISTORY PLEASE ......
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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The questiom is why? the jewish communitiy aren't asked to remove their wigs or men to shave the side burns(can't remember the name)or remove their skull caps, or asked not to wear their religous clothing. They are removed and live in their own communities like the ommish. As muslims we intergrate, co-operate and contribute to society, we aren't living in isolation or secluded.
So we should be left alone to choose wot we want to wear and not be dictated to.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Mido27: [QUOTE][b]Mido,
Word for Pasha, You misunderstood entirely everything I said. Impressive speech though.
Ah? how did I misunderstand?
You pointed that in the UK sunbathers were arrested for public nudity. That was the only example of modesty and dressing in the west you presented, how else I am going to interprete what you meant?
Posts: 3168 | From: If you don't like it, don't look or read it! | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by WOTEVER: The questiom is why? the jewish communitiy aren't asked to remove their wigs or men to shave the side burns(can't remember the name)
Earlocks. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Left.Side.Lying.State.Of.Mind:
quote:Originally posted by WOTEVER: The questiom is why? the jewish communitiy aren't asked to remove their wigs or men to shave the side burns(can't remember the name)
Earlocks.
Jew Screws Posts: 815 | From: London and the other | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by WOTEVER: The questiom is why? the jewish communitiy aren't asked to remove their wigs or men to shave the side burns(can't remember the name)or remove their skull caps, or asked not to wear their religous clothing. They are removed and live in their own communities like the ommish. As muslims we intergrate, co-operate and contribute to society, we aren't living in isolation or secluded.
So we should be left alone to choose wot we want to wear and not be dictated to.
The question relates to covering women's FACES . If Amish, Jews, Christians wore veils over their faces , your point would be relevant. Straw's argument related to communication and women covering their faces . No one is dictating to women in the UK either. Don't you read the posts of Muslim British women?
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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YES, AND JUST TO LIVEN IT UP A BIT, A WHITE, BRITSH MUSLIM WOMAN
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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bornand bred white muslim are you parents are white and muslim was they .....ENGLISH OR NOT ....SCOTTISH AND WHITE OR NOT OR EROUPEAN THEN ,IM WHITE BUT I AINT ,,,,
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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Then why are you asking questions relating to those who don't wear the veil? You say you integrate well and share in contributing to society, yet you don't understand the very basis of Straw's argument which relates to women covering their faces. If Jews or Christians did this, he would have included them in the debate. The fact is, they don't.
Wotever: ''As muslims we intergrate, co-operate and contribute to society, we aren't living in isolation or secluded. So we should be left alone to choose wot we want to wear and not be dictated to.''
You are not dictated to. Read your own words. Nobody is stopping you or I wearing what we please. You are British, yet you confuse debate with dictatorship. I hope we never have to live under a real dictatorship.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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how is it a debate, it's causing a backlash
women having the veils riped off of them, being spat at, and i'm not only talking about women who wear the niqab as his remark have caused questions about the hijab and lay people giving a description as to wot constitutes hijab the different styles etc.
Being told to ****** off back where we come from, no i don't understand the comments he made, can he remove his trousers when i meet him?
As i said before it's a personal CHOICE, how bout leaving muslims alone and moving on to issues that are more pressing?
I didn't see a furour in the media when the jewish community had yet another area 'wired' so that they can push their prams and buggies during the sabbath.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by MY NAME IS NO MORE .....,: bornand bred white muslim are you parents are white and muslim was they .....ENGLISH OR NOT ....SCOTTISH AND WHITE OR NOT OR EROUPEAN THEN ,IM WHITE BUT I AINT ,,,,
YES MY PARENTS, GRANDPARENTS AND GREAT GRANDPARENTS ARE WHITE, BRITISH NOT ENGLISH.
I have 2 passports though british and egyptian(threw marriage ) Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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god help u if u have dual aand never get int to trouble have u read ur british passprt irefused it ,im just took citezen thats all .i wont do dual ....was advised by the embassy actually not to do dual passport .... im mixed race but all white ...funny hey im born a muslim but i prefer my indian ways ....
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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The egyptian one is the second one, I don't need it or use it here, I had it while I was in egypt.
I always use the british one
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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its easier to attack islam for what it has and what it gives and even muslims today havemade ths possible as well going into clubs wearing jackets saying soldiers of allah and then wearing the cresent and star on there shoes man here on my city its a trend but to use and insult allahs name then go to the streets and riot and march and shout obsenietys of we are suspressed and hard done by where tell me where when we invite the media and feed the media most of the time ,,,i actually aint got time for the asians here in my city they provoke too too much on themselves a quick parayer and then to the pub i saw recently a muslim woman here in my city complex car park in hijab wit the viel having a quick puff and she saw me of course she knew who i was and said u aint seen me i needed that and i mean not a fag i meansummat else i know here and she was fasting as well so she said well she wasnt after that lol lol wow shes all to show her pride of islam i do beleive we are lucky here still ,in my husbands city they were ordered to not to teach with niqab and thats a muslim country and the woman were in the end happy to teach with it off to children but in public she covered but in some places in egypt u can be hit for wearing it ,,says alot for freedom of choice still ..any way me tired want to eat b4 fasting strts night all and safe journeys to where yo go ....
i know girsl here that use the niqab to show there family that they are pious women so they can leave the house with out any kind of asking from the parents but all the time they are meeting to have a quck jiggy jiggy wif there bf ,but i state not all some are very respectful women and ihave no problem with the woman wearing it but it does become a prblem if your slightly deaf and you cant hear the mumbbling withthe material and tell me are they afire safe if you was teaching with a bunsen burner ...
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by WOTEVER: how is it a debate, it's causing a backlash women having the veils riped off of them, being spat at, and i'm not only talking about women who wear the niqab as his remark have caused questions about the hijab and lay people giving a description as to wot constitutes hijab the different styles etc.
Being told to ****** off back where we come from, no i don't understand the comments he made, can he remove his trousers when i meet him?
As i said before it's a personal CHOICE, how bout leaving muslims alone and moving on to issues that are more pressing?
I didn't see a furour in the media when the jewish community had yet another area 'wired' so that they can push their prams and buggies during the sabbath.
Now you are just inventing stuff. No member of the British government has told Muslims to ''****** off back where you came from'' Neither would they condone the odd senseless attacks. You just keep making the argument wider and wider, rather than just focusing on the issue. You demand respect but include predictable little snipes at Jewish parents.
The majority of the British public are just tired of some British Muslims, who have equal rights, jumping up and down at the mere mention of debate. Even worse, how the same old tired prejudices are trotted out. You only see what you choose to see.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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i didn't say it was the british government!!!!
I said the comments that straw made has caused a backlash.
I mentioned jewish communities, for the simple fact being that for the past few months muslims have been in the spotlight by the british media.
So instead of focusing on muslims, focus on the BRITISH community as a whole and not have a witch hunt on muslims.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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Yeah and of all the communities you could have chosen - to illustrate your point, you pick Jews.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Your argument doesn't stack up. If the debate were about Catholicism and abortion or Christianity and gay rights wouldn't the debate focus on them? Muslims, Catholics, Jews, Hindus, etc are all a part of Britain as a whole. Sometimes a debate centres around one group. This is not attack, it is just discussion.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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where I live they've just sectioned off another area where the jewish community can go and push their buggies.
The other members of this community (non-muslims)are fed up of the jewish community.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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we've had gay rights hmmm they got wot they wanted.
Catholics had a bad time during the 60's through to 90's although it was in the media spotlight.
nice to see that there's a difference between christians and catholics.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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Some beliefs of the Roman Catholic church and conservative Protestant denominations are in total opposition to the other. If I had said Christianity, re the abortion debate, some may object, depending on how conservative they are. That is why I mentioned the Catholic abortion debate, not the 'Christian' one.
Glad that you recognise that other religions have been and are under the media spotlight.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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mmm you forgot baptist, evangelical, orthodox, methodist, mormons to name but a few
The point is they weren't scrutinised like the muslim community is being at the moment, where everything is being blown up out of all porportion.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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Wotever, I didn't forget anything. This isn't about every other religion in the world. It's about Islam and communication barriers caused by the relatively few conservative Muslim women who choose to wear the veil.
You are the one blowing things out of proportion and making ridiculous points, such as equating a woman being asked to remove her veil with a man being asked to remove his trousers.
Religion is an interesting topic and will always be up for discussion. You choose only to highlight the negative, not the positive aspects of being a British Muslim. Moderate British Muslims also disagree with the need to wear the niqab. It's not a Muslim against the rest of the UK issue. If Muslims like you continue to see debate as attack, it will intensify division. Luckily, moderate Muslim women are contributing to the debate on this issue - enlightening, not alienating.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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HOLD ON A MINUTE WOT DO YOU MEAN 'MUSLIMS LIKE ME?' YOU DON'T KNOW ME.
AND ACTUALLY TO SOME WOMEN IT IS THE EQUIVALENT OF ASKING A MAN TO REMOVE HIS TROUSERS.
NIQAB IS AN EXTRA NOT ESSENTIAL, HOWEVER IF SOME WOMEN CHOOSE TO WEAR IT WHAT'S THE PROBLEM? IT'S THEIR CHOICE.
I AGREE WITH THE TEACHER THAT WAS FIRED FOR WEARING HER NIQAB IN THE CLASSROOM AS SHE WAS TEACHING CHILDREN THEREFORE SHE SHOULD HAVE REMOVED IT.
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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I don't claim to know you. My comments relate to the views you have expressed on this forum. Is Muslims with views like yours better?
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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