please give me one proof from the bible that prove he is God if your answer is yes. just one proof not a copy and paste article, then we can move to another proof after .
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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Don't confuse religion with science here mr. Egypt. It is called 'believe' for good reasons!:-)
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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my question is clear I guess, there are some christians who believe that Jesus is God, so I would like to know where is the prove from the bible. if you dont believe he is God, ignore the topic. if you believe he is, show me one prove that he is, and just one so we can discuss it.
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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In Islam And for your inforamtion God gave the possibility to get a SON for him in The Quran (as you believe)in Sura Alzumar (39-4)
[4] Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible
He is the Son of God, equal with God, and with authority from the Father
“Then they all said, ‘Are You then the Son of God?’ So He said to them, ‘You rightly say that I am’” (Luke 22:70).
“For whoever does the will of My Father in heaven is My brother and sister and mother" (Matthew 12:50).
“Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, ‘All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth’” (Matthew 28:18).
“Therefore the Jews sought all the more to kill Him, because He not only broke the Sabbath, but also said that God was His Father, making Himself equal with God” (John 5:17-22).
Bear in mind that while a man claiming to be God is a radical thought, Jesus is the only leader of a world religion to have made the claim – not to mention backed it up. How? Keep reading…
He lived a sinless life
“Can any one of you convict me of a single misleading word, a single sinful act? But if I'm telling the truth, why don't you believe me?” (John 8:46, The Message).
Jesus had the ability to sin; if He weren’t able to sin, He could not have been tempted genuinely and would be unable to be our sympathetic High Priest (Hebrews 4:15). When He was tempted, He always rebuked the thought with scripture (Luke 4:1-13).
Because He didn’t sin, God was able to accept His sacrifice. 1 Peter 3:18 says, “Christ also suffered once for sins, the just for the unjust, that He might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive by the Spirit.”
He said He is the one and only way to God
“I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father but by me” (John 14:6).
It’s also interesting to note that Jesus did not call himself the destination, but the way, indicating that while salvation is immediate for the confessed and forgiven sinner, our Christian walk is a journey.
He had the power to forgive sins and provide everlasting life
“Jesus said to her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies; and whoever lives and believes in me will never die” (John 11:25).
“When Jesus saw their faith, He said, ‘Friend, your sins are forgiven.’ The Pharisees and the teachers of the law began thinking to themselves, ‘Who is this fellow who speaks blasphemy? Who can forgive sins but God alone?’” (Luke 5:20-21).
"For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in Him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (John 6:40).
“I tell you the truth, he who believes has everlasting life.” (John 6:47).
He predicted his own death and resurrection
“Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, ‘We are going up into Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again’” (Luke 18:31-33).
He said He would come back
Matthew 24:27-30 "So as the lightening comes from the east and flashes to the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man... At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory."
Mark 14:61-62 "Again the high priest asked him, 'Are you the Christ, the Son of the Blessed One?' 'I am,' said Jesus. 'And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven.'"
Jesus clearly knew He was the Lamb of God, the Messiah spoken of in the Old Testament. He knew He had to live a life without sin, no matter what. When He returns, He will judge the sins of the world… except for those who have already acknowledged conviction, entered a plea of guilty, and sought His mercy by believing on Christ
Tell us who could be Jesus ?
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: [QB] In Islam And for your inforamtion God gave the possibility to get a SON for him in The Quran (as you believe)in Sura Alzumar (39-4)
[4] Had Allah wished to take to Himself a son, He could have chosen whom He pleased out of those whom He doth create: but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things.) He is Allah, the One, the Irresistible
Bravo love did you know this alone or someone told you about it ?
actually the way you interpreted the verse is sick. we all know that God is able to do anything and everything, but there are things that isnt appropriate for His Majesty to do.
for example: in your religion you believe that God incarnate in Jesus' body, right ? so since God is able to do anything , He can incarnate in a donkey's body, cant He ? but this isnt suitable for His Majesty.
so Allah is telling us that If He wished to have a son, He would have choosed from His creatures. BUT Glory be to Him, it isnt appropriate for His Majesty and His Divinity to have a son.
How does an All-Powerful God need a son? The reality is that He doesn’t need a son, wife, or daughter; in fact, He doesn’t need anything, but everything needs Him! Allah is not dependent on anything, but everything else is dependent on Him Alone; even if they don’t believe it or don’t want to admit it.
Why Allah would have a son and He already have everything He created ? Allah doesnt need Mary (may Allah be pleased with her) nor anyone else to begot Jesus or anyone else for there is no need of this way that women give birth to their childrens in order for Mary to give God a son. If Allah wanted a son, He would create Him with one word , BE and he will be. But it isnt for his Majesty to have a son as I said. and this is what you ignored in the Holy Quran which I will post it for you as a conclusion love
019.035 YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is. PICKTHAL: It befitteth not (the Majesty of) Allah that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him! When He decreeth a thing, He saith unto it only: Be! and it is. SHAKIR: It beseems not Allah that He should take to Himself a ! son, glory to be Him; when He has decreed a matter He only says to it "Be," and it is.
ما كان لله أن يتخذ من ولد سبحانه إذا قضى أمرا فإنما يقول له كن فيكون
019.088 YUSUFALI: They say: "(Allah) Most Gracious has begotten a son!"
019.089 YUSUFALI: Indeed ye have put forth a thing most monstrous!
YUSUFALI: At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,
019.091 YUSUFALI: That they should invoke a son for (Allah) Most Gracious.
019.092 YUSUFALI: For it is not consonant with the majesty of (Allah) Most Gracious that He should beget a son.
019.093 YUSUFALI: Not one of the beings in the heavens and the earth but must come to (Allah) Most Gracious as a servant.
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I didn't interpret from my mind but as per the Saudi Islamic ministry site,I know it's wrong. The verse
And as you see they added "but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things" for the naives non Arabic speakers who will read and they are so many.
I said God gave the possibility and he didn't forbid that ,there is a big difference.
because you and Muslim thinking that God will get Son physically not spiritually and Mohammed misunderstood that too so he tried to explain in Quran as per he got it.
you believe that Gabrieal was incarnating to Mohammed in human image,so if the angel able to incarnate into human also God who created the angel able to incarnate in human.
Can God incarnates in animal may be but he choosed the human becaue he is the most honorable of his creatures and everything made for him.
At the end we say GOD is one but he revealed himself to us by Jesus his word,don't you say in Islam that if you want to talk with God then read Quran and don't touch Quran because it's a holy book althought it's just an ink on papers,also we say if you want to talk to God talk to Jesus his visible word.
But you didn't answer who could be Jesus? Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: I didn't interpret from my mind but as per the Saudi Islamic ministry site,I know it's wrong. The verse
And as you see they added "but Glory be to Him! (He is above such things" for the naives non Arabic speakers who will read and they are so many.
I said God gave the possibility and he didn't forbid that ,there is a big difference.
the verse doesnt say there is a possiblity for God to have a son as you claim, the verse says, If God has willed to have a son , He would have choosen from His creatures so there will be no need for someone to begot a son for Him. you interpreted the verse to claim there is a possibility for God to have a son, but that's not true for it is not suitable for God to have a son as I showed you above from the Holy Quran.
quote:because you and Muslim thinking that God will get Son physically not spiritually and Mohammed misunderstood that too so he tried to explain in Quran as per he got it.
honey, you christians always misinterpret words, when the words are metaphorical you make it literal and vice versa. if you think Jesus is the son of God spiritually, then we are all His sons, dont you agree ? for God takes care of all of us. but you refuse to believe in this although there are others who have been called son of God in your bible. take Israel for example, God said about him that he is God's firstborn. so if we were to comparel between Jesus and Israel, Israel would come in the first place since he is God's firstborn son love.
quote:you believe that Gabrieal was incarnating to Mohammed in human image,so if the angel able to incarnate into human also God who created the angel able to incarnate in human.
Can God incarnates in animal may be but he choosed the human becaue he is the most honorable of his creatures and everything made for him.
Bravo once again, but go back to your bible and read that no one sees God and live, so if God incarnated in any human or animal form and anyone saw him, that one must die. furthermore, if God incarnated in Jesus' body, then God himself is the one who died on the cross, or did he leave him when he died ?
quote: But you didn't answer who could be Jesus? [/qb]
acts 2:22
Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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"IF they read they won't understand and if they understood they won't believe and if they believed they won't understand again "said by someone in ES before. No wondering that Jesus crucified,why don't you read your thread again where you said you will refute every proof,I gave you some of what Jesus said about himself then you refuted by a weak reply Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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-Read about IF conditions in English grammer to know the difference between doubtly,possibility and the certainly.
-JESUS is the spirit and the word of God,had no Biological father came as it had been predicted about his coming,has no earthly father,has no earthly father,has no earthly father,to whom we can say he belong to as a son "give us the name of his father that could be"
- yes yes baby this is why we are calling Jesus son of God and this is unique case we can call ourselves equal to that relation because Jesus who only belonging to God and carry his properties that he proved by his miracles .
-yes nobody can see God and live good conclusion so for this reason it should be a mediator between God and humans to be easy for the human to see,understand and communicate...long story you have to read the O/T to understand the purpose of that coming.
-God can't die because he incarnated into the flesh of Jesus by spirit and the spirit is unlimited ,when someone dies his spirit doesn't die with him isn't right?
-Jesus was the visible word of God,talked like him by authority,did what he is doing,forgave sins...so many aspects refers to the divinity of Jesus.
-Before his coming the bible predicted about him which mean his existance before his coming not like anybody, he is unique.
-he still living didn't die and Mohammed confirmed that in Quran that God raised him...etc
-Jesus who will come at the judgement day not Mohammed, so why Jesus only and what all these halo about JESUS alone where all the others gone.
-If you combined all these aspects and properties about JESUS you will discover the truth and you will be the Muslim no 668 in the hour as per Aljazzera who will go to Jesus and leave this dark faith that nobody knows where he is going to and still following someone died like anyone and Mohammed himself will be judged by JESUS.
-Don't be one of the victims of Mohammed that by his Quran defamed christianity and all the beautiful meaning about the relation between the human and the God which Jesus showed to the people,he again returned to the O/T life which carry wars,blood and terror till now the middle east suffering because of him and his teaching which seprated the people from the time they are living and pushed them to live in Mohammed's time.
-Now all Muslims are escaping from the hell of these teaching by converting to Christainity or immigrating to Europe or US, read the news.
-As Mohammed said in his Hadith like Islam came strange also Islam will going strange.
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Loveforever, he asked for proof that from those christians who believe jesus is god, prove it. He did not say that jesus was not gods son. Jesus is not god, he is gods son. I to am curious that some christians feel this way as i was born in a dual religion family: father protestant, Mother roman catholic. Neither religion was i ever taught that jesus was god. I am curious as to what branch of christianity you belong to that teaches that?
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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There is no proof in religion, as far as I am concerned. All 'proof' revolves around quoting man made scriptures. To me, it is like asking for proof that Little Red Riding Hood was real and quoting from the fairy tale as evidence she was.
Everyone is entitled to believe whatever religious truth they like. It's disturbing how some followers of faith seem incapable of granting that simple courtesy to those of different religions or none. The religious nutters on this forum disrespect and dispute each other's views, as they are all totally right. Why can't everyone be right, when it comes to personal belief? None of us will know for certain until we meet God . People are actually killing each other over religious belief. It makes me sick.
Jesus, to some is the son of god. He is part of the Holy Trinity. God, Jesus and The Holy Spirit each have a separate uniqueness but they are essentially the same. Catholics believe this, for example. Not all christians believe in the trinity, of course.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I am of the same mind.I feel respect for each others religion should be what its about, exchanging ideas discussing things,not trying to prove whose religion is the "right religion". My grandmother always said this to me when I asked her about different religions-"any religion that doesnt follow the bible is the wrong way and they will go to hell". She even told me my own mother would go to hell because she was catholic! Sometimes I wondered why she allowed my father to marry my mother, till I got old enough to figure out that it was because of me. My whole life she constantly told my mother that paying respect to the holy mother was wrong, confession was evil because a priest had no rights to absolve sin, only god, and so on.(Lord, im readin this and thinking I should have had therapy,lol). The only constant between the two was the distinction that God was God, the creator of all things, and jesus was his son. Thats why I am curious to find out which denomination of christianity teaches that jesus is god. I like learning about other peoples beliefs, its important to me. Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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It sounds like your background helped you figure out how futile it is to insist that one faith is the true and righteous one. It's certainly not you who needs therapy on this thread!
I am not a christian but the Trinity is key to understanding what some christians believe. Jesus is the son of God but he is also part of God. God the father, the son and the holy ghost (spirit) are basically God. Catholics believe this and most websites for that faith explain it in more detail.
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According to the New Testament accounts, Jesus, during His ministry, often predicted that He would be raised from the dead (see John 10:17; Luke 9:22, 11:29,30, 16:31, 18:33; Mark 8:31, 9:9, 9:31, 10:34, 14:28; Matt. 16:4, 16:21, 17:9, 17:23, 20:19, 26:32, 27:63). He offered His future resurrection as validation for His extensive claims concerning Himself. He claimed to have authority to forgive sins (Luke 5:20,21,24), and to be Teacher and Lord (John 13:13). He claimed that apart from Himself, one could do nothing (John 15:5). He said, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in me, though he die, yet shall he live" (John 11:25). He claimed that He would come again at the close of the age (Mark 13:26). He claimed to be the Messiah prophesied in the Old Testament (see John 1:49-51 and 4:26). He claimed to be equal with God (John 5:18). This is not surprising since at least seven Old Testament passages equate the coming Messiah with God (Ps. 45:6,7; Isa. 9:6, 7:14; Micah 1:3; Zech. 14;9; Isa. 44:6 compared to Job 19:25, Mal. 3:1). For example, in Isaiah 9:6 we find the following prophecy concerning the Messiah to come: "For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace"
These claims of Christ concerning Himself are quite shocking. C. S. Lewis has written:
Then comes the real shock. Among these Jews there suddenly turns up a man who goes about talking as if He was God. He claims to forgive sins. He says He has always existed. He says He is coming to judge the world at the end of time. Now let us get this clear. Among Pantheists, like the Indians, anyone might say that he was a part of God, or one with God: there would be nothing very odd about. But this man, since He was a Jew, could not mean that kind of God. God, in their language, meant the Being outside the world Who had made it and was infinitely different from anything else. And when you have grasped that, you will see that what this man said was, quite simply, the most shocking thing that has ever been uttered by human lips.1
C. S. Lewis reminds us that one of the most shocking aspects of Christ's claims is His claim to forgive sins. He writes of this:
Now unless the speaker is God, this is really so preposterous as to be comic. We can all understand how a man forgives offences against Himself. You tread on my toe and I forgive you, you steal my money and I forgive you. But what should we make of a man, Himself unrobbed and untrodden on, who announced that he forgave you for treading on other men's toes and stealing other men's money? Asinine fatuity is the kindest description we should give of his conduct. Yet this is what Jesus did. He told people that their sins were forgiven, and never waited to consult all the other people whom their sins had undoubtedly injured. He unhesitatingly behaved as if He was the party chiefly concerned, the person chiefly offended in all offences. This makes sense only if He really was the God whose laws are broken and whose love is wounded in every sin. In the mouth of any speaker who is not God, these words would imply what I can only regard as a silliness and conceit unrivalled by any other character in history.
Yet (and this is the strange, significant thing) even His enemies, when they read the Gospels, do not usually get the impression of silliness and conceit. Still less do unprejudiced readers. Christ says that He is "humble and meek" and we believe Him; not noticing that, if He were merely a man, humility and meekness are the very last characteristics we could attribute to some of His sayings
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The Scripture clearly affirms that Jesus is God. John 1:1 says, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God." Verse 14 makes the identity of the Word clear: "The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth." The Word who "was God" .
Jesus said, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty" (Revelation 1:8).
"In the beginning of creation, God my Father willed, God the Son spoke and God the Holy Spirit manifested our power. Everything came into existence and remains so until time comes to pass."
The essence of the Christian faith is found in the person of Jesus. The teaching of Jesus is not really unique, except in the way Jesus talked about Himself:
- I and my Father are one (John 10:30). - He that has seen me has seen the Father (John 14:7-9). - Before Abraham was "I am" (John 8:58). "I am" was the covenant name for God in the Old Testament (Yahweh). The Jews understood the significance of this statement, because they picked up stones to stone him for blasphemy (John 8:59).
None of the prophets ever spoke like this. The prophets said, "Turn to the Lord and He will heal you." Jesus said, "Come unto me and I will give you rest." The prophets said, "Repent and God will forgive you." Jesus said, "I forgive your sins" (Matthew 9:2). And when someone objected and said, "Only God can forgive sins." Jesus in essence replied, "Yes, that’s quite right." All through the gospels, Jesus is taking the place of God.
Jesus was crucified because of blasphemy: "For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." (John 5:18).
He instructed his disciples to "Teach all nations; baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: Is Jesus (PBUH) God ?
please give me one proof from the bible that prove he is God if your answer is yes. just one proof not a copy and paste article, then we can move to another proof after .
I am a Christian, and No, Jesus is NOT God. There is only one God. I feel sure that your God being a Muslim is the same God I believe in, being a Christian...
Posts: 895 | From: Atlanta, GA. | Registered: Nov 2004
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It is a given that when a believer is Christian, that person must accept Christ as a divine being. There exist some movements that place themselves under the umbrella of Christianity in general, without believing in the divinity of Jesus. However, these are not accepted into the mainstream types of Christianity (like Catholicism, Orthodox and Evangelical Christianity), and more often than not would be considered cults.
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Faith in the divinity of Jesus is the foundation of Christianity.
Many times Jesus Christ referred to Himself as being eternal. For instance when the Jews asked Him "who art Thou?", Jesus replied "Even the same that I said unto you from the beginning" (John 8:25). Shortly after this He added: "Verily, verily I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58). Here it must be noted that Jesus had not said "I was," as would have been grammatically correct in the context, but rather used the present tense "I am," or more exactly, "I am He who is." The deep meaning of these words becomes clear when one considers the Hebrew original meaning.
When Moses asked God's name at the burning bush, the Lord answered: "I am He who is" (YHWH). The very name "He who is" (YHWH) indicates the distinguishing characteristic of God. He is the One who always exists; He is the Eternal One. In referring to Himself as "He who is" (YHWH), Jesus Christ used the Hebrew name for God. It should be remembered that the name YHWH was held in such esteem by the Jews that they used it only on the most important and solemn occasions, while in ordinary speech they used the names Lord, Creator, Most High, the Blessed One, and so forth.
After His resurrection from the dead, Christ again referred to Himself as eternal: "'I Am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End,' saith the Lord who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty" (Rev. 1:8). On other occasions He called Himself omniscient (all-knowing), saying "As the Father knoweth Me, even so I know the Father" (John 10:15). Truly the essence of God is beyond the comprehension of finite beings. Only God can know His own nature perfectly. The Lord Jesus Christ also called Himself omnipresent when He said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man who is in heaven … For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them" (John 3:13, Matt. 18:20). Here again Christ used the word is, meaning that not only was He or will He be in heaven, but He also abides there constantly.
Thus, since He shares with the Father all the divine attributes (creation, eternity, omniscience, omnipresence, etc.), Jesus Christ must be acknowledged by all as being equal to the Father as well. "All men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who sent Him" (John 5:23). All that has been said here should convince an unprejudiced person of the unquestionable truth, that Jesus Christ is true God of true God, equal to the Father by nature.
Although Jesus Christ avoided calling Himself God directly so as not to incite the people unnecessarily, He did commend those who were able to lift themselves up to the acceptance of this truth. Thus, for example, when the Apostle Thomas, seeing the risen Savior, exclaimed: "My Lord and my God!" (John 20:28), Christ did not reject his addressing Him in this way but mildly reproached Thomas for being slow to believe. "Thomas, because thou hast seen Me (risen), thou hast believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed" (John 20:29).
Finally let us remember that Christ was condemned to be crucified precisely because He formally admitted His divinity.
quote:Originally posted by Sideshow: The Lord Jesus Christ also called Himself omnipresent when He said: "No man hath ascended up to heaven but He that came down from heaven, even the Son of Man who is in heaven … For where two or three are gathered together in My name, I am there in the midst of them" (John 3:13, Matt. 18:20). Here again Christ used the word is, meaning that not only was He or will He be in heaven, but He also abides there constantly. "All men should honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father who sent Him" (John 5:23). Finally let us remember that Christ was condemned to be crucified precisely because He formally admitted His divinity.
DEAR, DEAR SLIDESHOW........ This is the sad fact of copy and pasting, in your above zealousness to prove that jesus is god,you took the parts of the scriptures you wanted to make it appear that this is what the bible says. I am copy pasting below the whole thing as it should appear, and when read like this it clearly shows jesus and the father are not the same, therefore JESUS IS NOT GOD, HE IS THE SON OF GOD!!! IS JESUS DIVINE?YES. IS HE GOD? NO. The CREATOR IS THE CREATOR, HE IS THE ALPHA AND OMEGA. IF you wish to make points then be fair aout it, the point is to show each other what there religion means to them, and enjoy learning about god through others eyes,whether they be muslim,christian, hindu, buddist or jewish eyes. After all GOD IS ONE.Ok, enough of my ranting,read on: MATTHEW 18;19 and 20- 19"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven. 20For where two or three come together in my name, there am I with them." ........ JOHN 3;31-36...31"The one who comes from above is above all; the one who is from the earth belongs to the earth, and speaks as one from the earth. The one who comes from heaven is above all. 32He testifies to what he has seen and heard, but no one accepts his testimony. 33The man who has accepted it has certified that God is truthful. 34For the one whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God[k] gives the Spirit without limit. 35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him."[l]... I could post many more but I think this is sufficient to prove point. One more thing, calling people cult members who think jesus is not god is suspiciously similiar to another poster who says similar intolerant things."If your against bush, your a terrorist, islam is nothing but a cult".Hmmmm, what do you think, say what you see?Sound familiar?? Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:One more thing, calling people cult members who think jesus is not god is suspiciously similiar to another poster who says similar intolerant things."If your against bush, your a terrorist, islam is nothing but a cult".Hmmmm, what do you think, say what you see?Sound familiar?? [Big Grin]"
No it doesn't sound familiar. They are entitled to believe whatever they want. For all I care they could even believe that Jesus is Arian who landed from Mars. The fact is that this is not mainstream Christianity. In the same way the Mahdis or Terence the Prophet is not mainstream Islam.
Your quotes from the article do not imply in the slightest that Jesus is not God.
You seem completely unfamiliar with the doctrine of Trinity.
The phrase "Son of Man" is a reference to Jesus' humanity, it is not a denial of his deity. By becoming a man, Jesus did not cease being God. The incarnation of Christ did not involve the subtraction of deity, but the addition of humanity. Jesus clearly claimed to be God on many occasions (Matthew 16:16,17; John 8:58; 10:30). But in addition to being divine, he was also human (see Philippians 2:6-8). He had two natures (divine and human) conjoined in one person.
In Heb. 2:9 Jesus was ". . . made for a little while lower than the angels . . ." Also in Phil. 2:5-8, it says that Jesus "emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men . . ." Col. 2:9 says, "For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form." Jesus assumed human being so that he could identify with us in our struggles (Hebrews 2:17), and most importantly so that he could die on the cross to pay the penalty for our sins (Philippians 2:5-11).
The phrase "Son of Man" emphasizes who Jesus is in relation to his incarnation and his work of salvation. In the Old Testament (Leviticus 25:25-26, 48-49; Ruth 2:20), the next of kin (one related by blood) always functioned as the "kinsman-redeemer" of a family member who needed redemption from jail. God, by assuming human nature through Jesus, became related to us "by blood" (that is, He became a man) so He could function as our Kinsman-Redeemer and rescue us from sin.
Because God is so much greater than man, He chooses to express Himself in human terms so that we can understand Him. When Surah 22, Hajj, verse 61 says that Allah sees and hears, it does not mean He has ears and eyes. Rather He is expressing a spiritual truth in such a way that we can understand that He is All-knowing. Similarly, behind the title "Son of God" is a spiritual truth expressed in human terms.
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For you to understand the incarnation, you first have to understand the Biblical concept of God. You need to see how Christians see God in order to understand how they can even possibly believe he could have done something like the incarnation.
The Quranic and Biblical views of God are totally different. If a person presupposes that the Quranic view of God is the one that they will believe in, then the incarnation does not and will never make sense. There is no way to prove the incarnation if God is seen in this way.
However, the incarnation will make perfect sense if someone presupposes that the Biblical view of God is the one they want to believe in. It is only a natural, logical outcome of who God says he is in the Bible. So, before trying to explain or "prove" the incarnation, I will spend a little bit of time explaining the differences between how Muslims see God and how Biblical Christians see God.
In Islam, God is "transcendent," which is a big, long, theological word basically meaning that He is beyond us as human beings, and unrelated to anything that we can know or comprehend. He is unknowable, impersonal, a being that does not relate or interact with His creation in a personal way. There is nothing about His attributes or characteristics that is even remotely like something human beings can relate to.
In Islam, Allah has 99 names. However, "love" is not one of them as far as I have been able to tell in the various lists I have seen of the 99 names. I have read the entire Quran and it appears to me that Allah seems to only love those who love Him. The only time it is mentioned that Allah is loving is in relationship to those who follow Him. Anyone else seems to be outside of that love until they have come under submission (islam/salam) to Him.
The Islamic view of Paradise is a place where Allah is not obviously present. There are many pleasures to be experienced, but Allah is not a part of any of these pleasures. Allah is never mentioned as being a part of the experience of being in Paradise, and He is "absent" from being there.
However, in the Bible, Allah is not unknowable or impersonal. He is a personal God, a God who interacts and relates to His people. He is a God who wants a relationship with each human being in the same way that we would relate to another person who is a friend or family member.
Getting back to the description of Paradise, God and a relationship with Him is the center of the Biblical description of Heaven. The whole reason a Christian wants to go to Heaven is so that he or she can be with God and see Him face to face. When a Christian dies, we sometimes say that he or she has gone to be with the Lord.
It would be too hard to quote, because it is mentioned too many times in the Bible (I'd have to quote most of it!), but over and over and over again, God is described as a loving Father. He is seen as a Father, not from a physical point of view, but in the same way that a loving father relates to his children is the way the Bible describes Allah as relating to His believers.
In fact, we are taught to pray, "Our Father who is in Heaven . . ." and the Bible describes the true believer as a person who have been given the power to become a child of God. God is a God of love, a God who loves every single person in the world, not just those who love or obey Him. In fact, in one part of the Bible it says that "God is love," and the primary characteristic of God is that He loves in a perfect way. He loves human beings purely because He cannot do any other thing but to love them. He loves them without cause or reason. His love is not conditional on them obeying Him or loving Him back. He would love anyone just because they are human.
God's love is something we do not deserve as human beings, but He gives it to us anyway. We do not have to do anything to earn it, we cannot be good enough to get it from Him, because we cannot be perfect like He is. It doesn't matter how bad we are or how good we are -- God will still love us in a perfect way that only He can do.
The highest commandment in the Bible is to love God with all our heart, mind, soul and strength. The whole basis for relating to God is to be based on love. He loves us, so we should return that love and attempt to love Him as best we can.
God is a personal God of relationship. Knowing God (not knowing ABOUT Him) is one of the primary goals of the Christian. We are to know Him in a personal way and relate to Him like we would a friend or a family member that we dearly love. The relationship with Allah is to be a heart relationship of intimacy and depth, not just a head knowledge of what He is supposed to be like.
The Biblical concept of God is that God is a personal God who wants to have a personal relationship with all of His people. When a person understands this, the incarnation isn't something that is out of character for a God like this.
The incarnation is actually God becoming a human being so that we could understand or know Him and how to relate to Him better. It was a part of God's revelation of who He is to us.[b] In Islam and all other religions, man is trying to reach up to God. However, in the Bible, God is trying to reach down to us as human beings and reveal Himself to us in a way that will enable us to relate to Him the way He wants us to relate to Him.
Many people seem to think that when comparing Islam and Christianity that the Bible and the Quran are seen in the same way and that Jesus and Muhammad are seen in the same way. However, if you look at how these things are really looked at, this is not so.
Jesus is seen in Christianity in the same way that the Quran is seen in Islam. Muhammad is seen in the same way that we see the Apostle Paul. The Bible, as a record of what the prophets said and did, is more like the Hadith and Sunnah.
Jesus is the revelation of God, an expression that demonstrates who God is and what He is like. Even the Quran calls Him the "Word of Allah" (Kalamatullah), which is also what the Bible calls him.
You see, God wanting to reveal Himself to us and be in a loving relationship with us, lowered Himself to become like us [b]so that it would easier for us to relate to Him and know who He is. Jesus was and is that physical human form of God. As someone I heard once described it, "God put on mankind like a garment." He put on a physical body, because many times we are limited as human beings to the physical world around us, and cannot fully understand the spirit world that God is a part of. He became like us so that we would be capable of understanding and relating to Him just like we would a friend. Because we know what Jesus is like, we have a better way of knowing who God really is and how to be able to relate to Him.
If you have problems believing in the incarnation, it is because you are taking a different view of God than that described in the Bible. It is that different view of God that should be examined and argued about rather than the incarnation. The incarnation makes perfect sense to those who believe in the Biblical view of God. It is in direct contradiction to the Quranic view of Allah.
Christians don't obey Him because it will determine whether they go to Paradise or not, but because they love Him as a result of His love for them. Their relationship with Him is what motivates them and gives them the desire to do what pleases Him. The whole basis of how Christians relate to God is a loving relationship with someone who is real and close, and not some God who they can never know in a personal way.
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: [QUOTE]the verse says, If God has willed to have a son , He would have choosen from His creatures so there will be no need for someone to begot a son for Him. you interpreted the verse to claim there is a possibility for God to have a son, but that's not true for it is not suitable for God to have a son as I showed you above from the Holy Quran.
God begets a son in the same way that the Sun begets its warmth. Not in the biological sense. He assumed a human nature in order to redeem us for our sins. He could not have chosen 'someone from his creatures' because since Adam and Eve in the Garden of Eden, people have been sinners. Adam's and Eve's sin separated us from God. God's nature is so pure and good that He cannot coexist with sin. God knew He must make a way for people to be forgiven of their sins. God knew He must build a bridge across the sin that separates man from God.
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The Christ has no human father, so even from the simple meaning He is Son Of God
Son of God means that He is the one came of God, and was revealed to mankind, He is the one attributed to God, the revealed mind of God
To understand that you must be in touch with God
In Islam God is the exalted Al-mighty God, there are barriers between the Muslim and God, high barriers that don't really exist, so the Muslim is denying that God can be revealed to us, He is far from that in their view
But for the Christian He is the loving father, very close to him, even closer than himself to him
There is a strong barrier between man and God in Islam But in Christianity, God is so close to us, we can't live without him, He is into our hearts.
The bible says: if you will confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)
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Jesus have never said during his life time that he is in fact God. He prayed to God himself.
God is close to each person in the amount that person allows and wants, and religion doesn't define that closeness but individuals themselves.
Jesus is considered God because - he performed miracles that are not comprehensible to human mind. Christians came to conclusion that he must be God incarnated ( God's Spirit in the Jesus's body) thus Jesus must be God.
There is no evidence that Jesus said he is in fact God. Jesus spoke in parabolas, thus it's open to subjective interpretation. There is a huge difference between written word in the holly books, prophets spoken words, peoples interpretations of both, and "actual God's Intention".
Posts: 182 | From: LA/Alex | Registered: May 2003
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posted
Mainline Christians do believe that Jesus is God. However, they also believe that he is the Son of God and that God is composed of three persons that make the Holy Trinity. However, there are other Christians, such as the Jehovah's Witnesses, who believe that Jesus is only the Son of God. Jehovah's Witnesses also believe that Jesus was not born on December 25th and do not celebrate Christmas.
To get even more complicated there are some Unitarians who believe that Jesus was merely a wise man and that God is only composed of one person, thus the name Unitarian.
What it boils down to is that there many different sects within Christianity and each one has their own belief and doctrine. Honestly it does not matter what each person believes as long as we are all able to respect each other's believes.
Posts: 6 | From: USA | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Carmen Elektra: Jesus have never said during his life time that he is in fact God. He prayed to God himself.
God is close to each person in the amount that person allows and wants, and religion doesn't define that closeness but individuals themselves.
Jesus is considered God because - he performed miracles that are not comprehensible to human mind. Christians came to conclusion that he must be God incarnated ( God's Spirit in the Jesus's body) thus Jesus must be God.
There is no evidence that Jesus said he is in fact God. Jesus spoke in parabolas, thus it's open to subjective interpretation. There is a huge difference between written word in the holly books, prophets spoken words, peoples interpretations of both, and "actual God's Intention".
Suppose a man does indeed come up to you and does says,
"I am God, worship me."
Would you believe him? Would you worship him?
The immediate reaction of any decent monotheistic believer would be to call the person making such a claim an impostor and a blasphemer. If that is your reaction too, then why would you demand something from Jesus which you aren't going to accept anyway? Most would declare insane anybody who would make such a statement. Jesus knows about this natural reaction as well as anybody else and saw no reason to make his claims in such a foolish way. But he did make the claim in indirect ways and those are just as clear.
Maybe you are cautious and open and don't want to completely dismiss such a claim ... after all, saying that God is not able to come and appear in the form of a man does restrict his power, and you believe in an all powerful God, ... but you would at least demand conclusive proof for such a claim, wouldn't you? After all, if you do worship somebody who is not God you are guilty of idolatory. But refusing to worship God when he demands so is just as great a sin.
What matters in the end is not the existence of this literal statement, but whether there is clear evidence that he is indeed God, no matter in which form he issued the claim. If there is clear proof for his divine identity, then you have to worship Him even if the wording of his commands is not precisely the way you may think they should be. We cannot prescribe for God how he has to reveal himself before we accept it.
For example, in the Gospel according to John, (speaking of eternal life) Jesus says, "I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in me will live, even though he dies." (John 11:25). He makes the offer of eternal life conditional on faith in his own person. This would be blasphemous for anybody other than God. This is an incredible claim. Does he give any evidence for his authority to make such claims? The record gives many details of what happened at this particular day, but at the end we read, "When he had said this, Jesus called in a loud voice, `Lazarus, come out!' The dead mean came out, his hands and feet wrapped with strips of linen, and a cloth around his face. Jesus said to them, `Take off the grave clothes and let him go.'" (John 11:43-44).
When you read the Gospels carefully you will find that consistently
* Jesus talks like he is God, * Jesus acts like he is God, * Jesus gives evidence for claiming this authority rightfully by performing miraculous signs.
After 3 years with his disciples we read how one of them asks Jesus and wants to be "shown the Father (God)".
Jesus answered, "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. ... Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves." (John 14:10-11).
Jesus expected the disciples and the people around him to recognise his true nature and identity from his words which are only appropriate for God to speak and from his deeds. Jesus does give enough proof and then lets you draw your own conclusions. Everybody could make the claim to be God. And many have made claims to be (a) god throughout history. Only the true God can give true evidence for it and if you have the evidence there is no need for the explicit command to worship anymore. The statement "I am God" adds nothing of substance to the question regarding his identity. His real identity is established by the proof he gives, not by claims each and everybody can make. After he has given the evidence, there is no more need for the statement. Those who are open for the truth will recognise the evidence, those who ignore the evidence won't be convinced either if he adds this specific statement you seem to demand from him. And if you have recognized his true identity, worshiping him is only proper and will nearly be an "automatic" response.
I know this is an incredible thought, it is unbelievable. That is why it took even the disciples themselves such a long time to really understand it. They have really only started to comprehended the meaning of it all after Jesus' own death and resurrection, after they meet the risen Lord.
In the Gospel according to John, end of chapter 20, and the Gospel according to Matthew, end of chapter 28, we read how Jesus receives worship and affims this. Even though he never demands the worship, he accepts it and confirms it as proper.
You claim:
N O W H E R E Jesus says "I am God, worship me."
and understand this as
NOwhere Jesus says "I am God, worship me."
and you are right when taking it the literalistic way. He never says these very words. But he makes his claims very clear in many other ways. Open your eyes and you will see that the right way to read this statement is
Now HERE Jesus says "I am God ..."
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quote:Originally posted by Josh: how about if I prove it from your book, what will you say?
that's the funniest response in this thread. prove it from your book first then we can see. but as I said, just one proof, quote me a verse from your book that say Jesus is God. if you want to prove it from the Holy Quran, go ahead, but make sure you have read the Quran well before you start
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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i know ur book more than you and the best schoolar in the muslim world...i will do it when i have more time...
Posts: 226 | Registered: Mar 2006
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your friend Israel claimed that he knows my book more than me too, so who knows it more than the other? you more than him, or him more than you ? LOL
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by foreignluvr: I am a Christian, and No, Jesus is NOT God. There is only one God. I feel sure that your God being a Muslim is the same God I believe in, being a Christian...
if you dont mind me asking, since you dont believe Jesus is God, what's your explanation of the verse that Jesus say in it " I and The Father are one " ?
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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I just don't understand the need to literally know by 'proove' that Jesus is God. Oh, I must say that when I was much younger I remember the feeling, but it has proven to be of no importance as long as I can live his 'image' and being in my intimate religious life. And Jesus has proven to me to be a powerfull sustainer of my wellbeing.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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In Mathew 16:15, Jesus put it this way, 'But who do you say that I am?' One of His disciples, Simon Peter, replied: 'You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.'
Jesus therefore said to them, "Truly, truly, I say to you, it is not Moses who has given you the bread out of heaven, but it is My Father who gives you the true bread out of heaven. For the bread of God is that which comes down out of heaven, and gives life to the world." They said therefore to Him, "Lord, evermore give us this bread." Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; he who comes to Me shall not hunger, and he who believes in Me shall never thirst." (John 6:32-35) Again therefore Jesus spoke to them, saying, "I am the light of the world; he who follows Me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life." The Pharisees therefore said to Him, "You are bearing witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true." Jesus answered and said to them, "Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true; for I know where I came from, and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from, or where I am going." (John 8:12-14)
Jesus therefore said to them again, "Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep. All who came before Me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not hear them. I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture. The thief comes only to steal, and kill, and destroy; I came that they might have life, and might have it abundantly. I am the good shepherd; the good shepherd lays down His life for the sheep." (John 10:7-11)
Martha therefore said to Jesus, "Lord, if You had been here, my brother would not have died. Even now I know that whatever You ask of God, God will give You." Jesus said to her, "Your brother shall rise again." Martha said to Him, "I know that he will rise again in the resurrection on the last day." Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this?" She said to Him, "Yes, Lord; I have believed that You are the Christ, the Son of God, even He who comes into the world." (John 11:21-27)
-------------------- Learn from the past. Live in the present. Hope for the future. Posts: 1474 | From: in my own paradise | Registered: Sep 2006
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posted
Thanks Wot, this is as close as 'proove' can be, in fact the way we handel this as Christians.
Posts: 1419 | From: Amsterdam, Netherlands | Registered: Aug 2003
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quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: One more thing, calling people cult members who think jesus is not god is suspiciously similiar to another poster who says similar intolerant things."If your against bush, your a terrorist, islam is nothing but a cult".Hmmmm, what do you think, say what you see?Sound familiar??
As a matter of fact, yes, it sounds very familiar:
Egypt Bahais Lose Battle for Recognition Jano Charbel, Arab News
CAIRO, 17 December 2006 — An Egyptian court denied Bahais yesterday the right to state their religion on official documents and described them as pro-Israeli apostates. The Supreme Administrative Court ruled against the right of Hossam Ezzat Mussa and his wife, Rania Enayat, to state their religion on official documents.
Judge Sayed Nofal, speaking after reading out the verdict, said “the constitution promotes freedom of belief for the three recognized heavenly religions and they are Islam, Christianity and Judaism.
“As for the Bahais, Islamic jurists have all agreed that the Bahai faith is not one of the three recognized religions,” he said. “Those who belong to this religion are apostates of Islam, because the faith’s principles contradict the Islamic religion and all other religions.” The couple had filed the case in 2004. In April this year a lower court ruled in their favor.
Meanwhile, Egyptian prosecutors have ordered that 140 members of the opposition Muslim Brotherhood, including deputy leader Khairat El-Shatir, stay in detention for 15 days for questioning, judicial sources said yesterday.
Police rounded up the Islamists on Thursday morning in a crackdown connected with student activism at Al-Azhar University and a protest march in which several dozen Islamist students wore black militia-style uniforms and black balaclavas.
The prosecutors will investigate the possibility that the Brotherhood members had offensive weapons, took part in a public show of strength and possessed Muslim Brotherhood leaflets and documents, the sources said. In their appearance before a state security prosecutor yesterday, the students chose to wear white clothing of the kind worn by detainees in preventive detention, as if to say that their detention was a forgone conclusion. Prosecutors showed the students confiscated military-style clothing, but the students refused to speak and their lawyers walked out in protest.
posted
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is Jesus (PBUH) God ?
please give me one proof from the bible that prove he is God if your answer is yes. just one proof not a copy and paste article, then we can move to another proof after . --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
There is no proof in the Bible, as Jesus is not almighty God, but a creation of his:-
Revelation 3:14 These are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation by God,
"The Amen" is one of Jesus titles.
barryrob
Posts: 370 | From: England | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: Is Jesus (PBUH) God ?
please give me one proof from the bible that prove he is God if your answer is yes. just one proof not a copy and paste article, then we can move to another proof after .
Here you go Mr Egypt.
Jhn 1:1 ¶ In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
Jhn 1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.
Jhn 1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
Jhn 1:4 In him was life; and the life was the light of men.
Jhn 1:5 And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
Jhn 1:6 ¶ There was a man sent from God, whose name [was] John.
Jhn 1:7 The same came for a witness, to bear witness of the Light, that all [men] through him might believe.
Jhn 1:8 He was not that Light, but [was sent] to bear witness of that Light.
Jhn 1:9 [That] was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
Jhn 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Jhn 1:14 ¶ And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Jhn 1:15 John bare witness of him , and cried, saying, This was he of whom I spake, He that cometh after me is preferred before me: for he was before me.
Jhn 1:16 And of his fulness have all we received, and grace for grace.
Jhn 1:17 For the law was given by Moses, [but] grace and truth came by Jesus Christ.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
But according to the Bible that is not true because it is not what Jesus believed or said to worship his Father:-
Luke 4:8 In reply Jesus said to him: “It is written, ‘It is Jehovah your God you must worship, and it is to him alone you must render sacred service.’”
What he say must be true!
barryrob
Posts: 370 | From: England | Registered: Feb 2008
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John 4:23-24 Nevertheless, the hour is coming, and it is now, when the TRUE worshipers will worship the Father with spirit and truth, for, indeed, the Father is looking for suchlike ones to worship him. 24 God is a Spirit, and those worshiping him must worship with spirit and truth.”
Thus Jesus said to worship jehovah noy him. barryrob
Posts: 370 | From: England | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.
Yes, Barryrob, He did say that those who worship God should worship him in spirit and in truth. Jesus came to fulfill the law and was saying this to make it clear that we are no longer judge by the law of the flesh but by the law of grace.
For example: He said that thou say do not commit adultery but I say unto you if you look upon a woman with lust, you have already committed adultery with her in your heart.
The scribes a Pharisees were so pious but it was all in keeping the law. Jesus basically told them that they look good on the outside but inside they are full of dead men's bones.
He was saying worship God in spirit not by the works of the law.
The Jews understood that he was calling himself God although he never actually said it. He didn't have to, the people were saying it. They knew. That is why the Jews crucified him because he made himself equal to God. They feared him, they feared the power he had.
Here was a poor, peaceful, carpenter who walked down the street speaking of love, healing the sick, and forgiving sins and hoards of people followed him.
Who can forgive sins, but God?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
QUOTE:- The Jews understood that he was calling himself God although he never actually said it. He didn't have to, the people were saying it. They knew.
-------------
And they where wrong, the above would be just one reason why Jesus comdemed them:-
Mark 7:6-8 6 He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me (Jehovah) with [their] lips, but their hearts are far removed from me (Jehovah). 7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.’ 8 Letting go the commandment of God, YOU hold fast the tradition of men.”
To teach that Jesus is God; is as Jesus said "they teach as doctrines commands of men."
barryrob
Posts: 370 | From: England | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
Barryrob, You need to study the Bible without your Jehovah witness pamplets. You are being lead by religious dogma.
quote: Mark 7:6-8 6 He said to them: “Isaiah aptly prophesied about YOU hypocrites, as it is written, ‘This people honor me (Jehovah) with [their] lips, but their hearts are far removed from me (Jehovah). 7 It is in vain that they keep worshiping me, because they teach as doctrines commands of men.’ 8 Letting go the commandment of God, YOU hold fast the tradition of men.”
This scripture once again is talking about the law. The example given in my post above about lust makes it quite clear the difference of honoring him with their lips and not their heart. Yes, the Jews were wrong. You see the law was given for man not man for the law. They had become a slave to the law. Their life consisted of trying to keep the law to the letter. They argued about insignificant details and judged a man by outward appearance. They were critical of Jesus because he healed on the Sabbath and ate with sinners. They had no mercy.
Don't you remember when they wanted to stone the woman caught in adultery? What did Jesus do? He said, OK, go ahead but let him that is without sin cast the first stone. All left. Yet, according to the law the woman should of been stoned.
Why do you think of the passage I gave from John? Jesus was called the light, and John was not the light but came to bare witness of the light. What is the light...God. The light shines in darkness but the light comprehended it not.
Look at the following:
quote: Jhn 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
His own? The Jews. They were Gods chosen people.
quote: Jhn 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, [even] to them that believe on his name:
Jhn 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Here is says that "as many as received him...who ever believe on his name" "born not of blood but of God". Meaning us.
Matthew 23:
"13. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are. 16. "Woe to you, blind guides! You say, 'If anyone swears by the temple, it means nothing; but if anyone swears by the gold of the temple, he is bound by his oath.'
23. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices--mint, dill and cummin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law--justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former. 24. You blind guides! You strain out a gnat but swallow a camel. 25. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and dish, but inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence. 26. Blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup and dish, and then the outside also will be clean. 27. " Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean. 28. In the same way, on the outside you appear to people as righteous but on the inside you are full of hypocrisy and wickedness. 29. "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the graves of the righteous. 30. And you say, 'If we had lived in the days of our forefathers, we would not have taken part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.' 31. So you testify against yourselves that you are the descendants of those who murdered the prophets. 32. Fill up, then, the measure of the sin of your forefathers! 33. "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34. Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35. And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36. I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation. 37. "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing. 38. Look, your house is left to you desolate. 39. For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.' "
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Jesus is the son of GOD- sent here on earth to show us the way- and set an example for us- like a phophet. Jesus is not GOD- but the son of GOD, the same GOD muslims believe in. There is only one GOD .
quote:Originally posted by tootsie: Jesus is the son of GOD- sent here on earth to show us the way- and set an example for us- like a phophet. Jesus is not GOD- but the son of GOD, the same GOD muslims believe in. There is only one GOD .
What is your response to the passage I posted from John? Are you Christian or Muslim?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: Is Jesus (PBUH) God ?
please give me one proof from the bible that prove he is God if your answer is yes. just one proof not a copy and paste article, then we can move to another proof after .
Look, this is what Mr Egypt asked for. One proof from the Bible that proves Jesus was God. This is what I gave. He did not ask for our opinion. He asked for something from the Bible to show Jesus was God.
He was also asking for a Christian to respond. We already know that Muslims do not believe that Jesus was God.
If you want opinion that is a whole different matter. I can give you the opinion of main stream Christianity and I can give you my opinion.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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I don't see where you answered his question. It was Jesus that said I and my father are one. He also said if you had known me you would have known my father.
Basically Mr. Egypt Jesus was saying that he is God. This is directly from the Bible not a personal opinion.
This is the prevailing current belief in Christianity today. Their are of course many religions within Christianity. Some do not teach that Jesus was God. For example The Jehovah witness like Barryrob. Jehovah witness are considered a cult by the mainstream.
My views do not always correlate with mainstream but after much debate within myself about this issue I do believe that Jesus was/is God. For an example of where I differ, I believe that there are others besides Christians who are Gods people and are going to heaven. Mainstream does not.
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