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There basic argument is : When you accept Christ as your savior, your sins are forgiven, and you've got a one way ticket to heaven.
Are Homosexuals Condemned to Hell?
Are all homosexuals destined for hell? Does ones sexual orientation, in and of itself, condemn one to a life apart from Christ? Surprising as it may seem there are many within the Christian community that believe this to be true. Go to any major "gay pride" event and you will see protestors with signs saying such things as "Fags are going to Hell!" So who is right? Are 'we' condemned to Hell because of our sexual orientation? Or are these poor people so wrapped up in their fear that they would attack the very Body of Christ (Matthew 25:40)?
When I was "coming out," most in the church believed that homosexuals were condemned to Hell. Because of this, I too struggled with this concept and wondered if my very salvation was in peril. After all, I had no one else telling me anything different. My heart was telling me that God loved me 'just as I am' yet the Church was telling me something entirely different. Which was right?
Not wanting to lose my salvation over my sexual orientation, I started my journey here to find God's truth and will for my life. Aware that my own biases would probably cloud my judgment, I decided to start my search using the worst possible scenario. That being the premise that the "anti-gay" contingent was correct and that homosexuals were destined for Hell. If I could find any way to Scripturally back this premise, then I had determined in my mind that I would accept this as the truth. After all the weight of the Church stood behind this idea and I surely didn't want to risk my relationship with God. No matter the personal cost.
After much thought, I came up with only two possible scenarios that would support this notion. The first is that salvation is reserved for a select group of people, and that homosexuals are somehow excluded from this group. The second possibility is that homosexuality is such a terrible and perverse sin that salvation is beyond our grasp. On the flip side, if neither of ideas could stand up to Biblical scrutiny, then there is nothing left to support the notion that salvation hasn’t been extended to everyone - including the gay community!
Could salvation be reserved for a select group of people? It may seem surprising, but this is not a new idea. The early Christians believed that salvation was only offered to those of Jewish heritage and not to the Gentiles (non- Jews) who were seen as an unclean abomination (Acts 10:28). Thankfully, Paul and others wrote extensively on this issue and strongly refuted the notion that salvation is offered only to a select few.
John described best God's open invitation in John 3:16 when he wrote that “whosoever” (King James translation) believes in Jesus Christ will not perish. “Whosoever” does not exclude anyone, instead it includes everyone! Simply put, it does not matter if you gay or straight, black or white, male or female. What matters is whether you believe in Jesus Christ or not and have accepted Him as your Lord and Savior.
John 3:16 (NIV) "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
So if no one is excluded from God's invitation, that only leaves one scenario left. That being that homosexuality is such an evil and perverse sin that it cannot be forgiven. Of course we have to assume for a moment that homosexuality is a sin to explore this idea! But if true, could any sin be so terrible that Christ’s death is incapable of cleansing us from it?
If we accept this premise, the implications are immense, for it means that there is a limit to salvation’s cleansing power. If true, then Christ did not conquer sin, but rather that a single sin conquered Him! If sin conquered Christ, then satan, not Christ, still rules and we have lost the battle! Is there such a limit to the cleansing blood of Christ that was shed on the cross? No! (Romans 8:37-39; Matthew 28:18) A thousand times no!
How do I know this to be true? I knew firstly because Paul said in Romans 8:1, “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus”. If there was a sin that could keep us from being saved, the text would have instead read, “Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus EXCEPT for the homosexuals”. It simply does not say that!
Secondly, I know because of my own personal experience. God has so dramatically changed me since the day I accepted Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior some twenty-five years ago. That to tell me God isn’t interested in homosexuals or that God doesn’t accept gay people is absurd! It’s too late to tell me such nonsense! Why? Because I’ve already experienced God’s miraculous touch and power (2 Corinthians 5:17-19)! I’ve already felt God’s overpowering love sweep over me and through me. I've experienced first hand the gifts of the Spirit that Peter described as only come from God Himself (Acts 10:44-48)! And finally, I’ve already witnessed the lengths He will go to save ‘others’ like me! Far from convincing me that God “hates gays” I am fully persuaded that God loves us, cherishes us and will go to any length to save us.
Has God ever asked me to change? YES! God has asked me to change LOADS of things about my life. But He has NEVER once asked me to leave my relationship or try and change my sexual orientation!
It’s clear that no one particular group of people has ever been excluded from salvation. Nor is any sin so great that it cannot be cleansed by the power of the blood of Jesus. Salvation has nothing to do with one’s sexual orientation, and everything to do with our acceptance or rejection of Jesus Christ. The anti-gay signs that scream out, “Fags are going to Hell!” should instead be asking us all one simple question. “Have you Accepted Jesus Christ?” For that is the only thing that matters concerning ones Salvation.
Note: Don't end your search here though. What does Scripture have to say about this issue? If your short on time you can click here to go directly to the "clobber" passages interpreted by many in the church to condemn homosexuality. Do they? Also highly recommended is the next article in the series titled "Is Homosexuality a Sin?" If you have the time though I encourage you to read the entire article series from start to finish starting first with the introduction. Want to know even more? I suggest you pick up a copy of Rev. Sundby's book titled "Calling the Rainbow Nation Home."
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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wow it's great subject hibbah, as you refer to since the God send messanger LOT and he tell them : my people you come this crime no one ever do this before from the people , you people get the male and not the women like this normal or natural , my people you are bad people and they answer was :get this messanger they are people want to get PURE-natural-,and still god says and we safe him with his family and distroy the other (surat al araf) agree with you , thanks for show me this
Posts: 88 | From: cairo | Registered: Feb 2007
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yeah its very interesting. Christianity (atleast protestantism) allows for great loop holes.
You know, i had a christian girl in my class get into debate with my teacher (who is an atheist) and he asked her " so if i accept christ, i go to heaven, no matter what?" and she replied yes. so then he asked, "does that mean Gandhi will go to hell?" and she said "yes, b/c he didnt embrace Christ" and then he asked, "does that mean if Hitler was a Christian, he wouldnt go to Heavan?" and she said YES!
then the teacher said, "i'd rather go to hell than believe in a God who thought that was right"
and then she started crying in class- really loud- it was really, really awkward. and funny Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote: Christianity (atleast protestantism) allows for great loop holes.
Wrong! I was protetstant all my life. It is forbidden. Just as in Islam. The only denomination that some churches allow is Lutheran. But then.....most of us don't agree with the Lutheran any more than we do the Catholics. They're just wrong.
quote: "does that mean if Hitler was a Christian, he wouldnt go to Heavan?" and she said YES!
Hitler would or would not go to Heaven? He would not. Becuase in his actions. He turned from God. He had to have. How else could he have done the things that he did. If the girl said he would go to Heaven. I think she's mixed up. My teaching during my life, says opposite. Again, faith without works.
quote: There basic argument is : When you accept Christ as your savior, your sins are forgiven, and you've got a one way ticket to heaven.
Nope: Faith without works is dead? Is that how it was said? Anyway......the belief is that accepting Christ is the way to heaven, and that you are a new creation when you do. Your slate is wiped clean. Much like Hajj. Now what you do with that after you accept decides your fate.
Do you seriously think that a person can accept Christ, then worship the devil and go to Heaven? No Ok that's a drastic choice but the point is the same.
Muslims that don't study the Bible cannot understand what a Christian does. Same for Christians that don't study Quran cannot understand what the Muslims do.
Soma don't listen to that. That is NOT what Christians believe.
Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
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According to traditional and Biblical Christianity, sexual sin, specifically homosexuality, is no crime, but it is just that—a sin. These two divergent views in Christianity and Islam in this matter lead to divergent policies on dealing with the same immoral sex act.
It is imperative to interpret the Bible in its historical and literary context. Old Testament lays out the penalties for various sins. This one says that homosexuals should be put to death:
If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads. (Leviticus 20:13, NIV)
The question is: should this harsh punishment be applied to today’s world? Does it have universal application?
How Jesus fullfills the Law:
Jesus came to fulfill the law or Torah, not to destroy or abolish it (Matthew 5:17). He fulfills it in at least three ways, but the one we look at here takes away the law’s severe punishments. This benefits all of society, especially today.
Jesus fulfills the law by taking on himself the penalty for our sins. The Torah is filled with specific punishments for specific sins, but his death on the cross satisfies and propitiates divine wrath that is directed at our sins—this is the Christian doctrine of the atonement. It is for this reason that a Christian could never give up this doctrine and must totally reject Muhammad’s odd view that Christ never died on the cross (Sura 4:157)
Christ’s death is God’s gift to us. We are saved and on our way to heaven, not based on our own works, but on Christ’s good work on the cross. Therefore, those who trust in Christ do not have to pay the penalty for their sins.
It is therefore certain that homosexuals should not be put to death for their sins. The entire sweep of the New Testament says that all sexual sins begin in the heart and can only be healed in the heart, by transforming it. This is why Jesus and the inspired New Testament authors write often about the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:18; 3:11; Luke 11:13; John 20:22). He lives in them to enable and empower them to walk in love, which fulfills the law (Matthew 23:37-40; Romans 13:10). In contrast, a major problem with the law of Muhammad is the distortion of the blessed doctrine of the Holy Spirit, who has been reduced to the archangel Gabriel in Islamic theology. According to this doctrine, Muslims do not enjoy the Holy Spirit living in them in the way described by Jesus Christ and the New Testament, so they have to fulfill the old-new law of Muhammad by their own efforts.
This may be a major factor as to why Muhammad reinstituted the punishments found in the Torah. Being merely a human messenger (Sura 3:144), he could not send the Holy Spirit into the hearts of people so that they could be changed from the inside out. On the other hand, as the eternal Son of God, Jesus does in fact send the Holy Spirit into the hearts of all those who ask for him, and now they have living in them the power to be changed from the inside out.
How Jesus forgives sexual sin
It so happens that Jesus never had to confront the issue of homosexuality, simply because this issue never came up during his three years of ministry. But as an observant Jew, he understood the Torah, so he would have announced that homosexuality was a sin. He certainly said that sexual immorality generally and adultery specifically were sins (Matthew 5:27-28 and 15:19), and this agrees with the Torah. He also endorses the male and female model in the Garden of Eden (Matthew 19:4-6 and Mark 10:6-9). This is the norm for society: "What God has joined together, let man not separate" (Matt. 19: 6 and Mark 10:9). And God joined together male and female.
Though Jesus never confronted the sin of homosexuality specifically, we have a clear idea about how he dealt with adultery and prostitution—two other sexual sins, though the gay community may object to the comparisons. He forgave the woman caught in adultery (John 8:1-11).
As for prostitutes, he let them into his kingdom on their repentance. While in Jerusalem, he confronted the chief priests and elders, who were badgering him with antagonistic questions. Matthew 21:31 says: "Jesus said to them, ‘I tell you the truth, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are entering the kingdom of God ahead of you.’" Needless to say, Jesus chose two types of sinners who were especially repugnant to the extra-righteous.
But first prostitutes have to be forgiven of their sins and be saved—or cleansed from the inside out by the Holy Spirit—before they enter the kingdom of God. One day a certain Simon, a Pharisee, invited Jesus into his large house for dinner. Suddenly a "sinful woman" (read: local prostitute) crashed the dinner party and washed Jesus’ feet with her tears, wiped them off with her hair, and poured oil on his feet. The Pharisee became indignant and said to himself that if Jesus really were a prophet, he would know who was touching him and not allow it, for she was unclean. Jesus pointed out to him that Simon had not offered him the customs of hospitality, but this sinful woman was doing this. "Then Jesus said to her, ‘Your sins are forgiven.’ The other guests began to say among themselves, ‘Who is this who even forgives sins?’ [This is another New Testament hint of Jesus’ divinity.] Jesus said to the woman, ‘Your faith has saved you; go in peace’" (Luke 7:48-50).
This true account shows that Jesus did not order prostitutes and other sexual sinners to be hunted down and flogged or burned alive, even though this one was living in Israel, the Holy Land, and even though the Torah says specifically that a prostitute must be burned with fire (Leviticus 21:9). Instead, Jesus looks at the heart and sees a diamond in the rough. He knows that with his love and power, through the Holy Spirit, sexual sinners of all sorts can be changed. Jesus would have preached this same message to the homosexual sinner, as well. Sexual sin is just that—a sin; it is not a crime in the new era of salvation that Jesus has ushered in.
This love and forgiveness stands in stark contrast to the law of Muhammad. While it is true that some verses in the Quran speak of repentance (Suras 4:16-17, 5:34, 5:39, 24:5), they seem to be always accompanied by verses that mete out flogging or mutilation or crucifixion or house arrest or death (Suras 4:15, 5:33, 5:38, 24:2). The Quran enshrines many sins as crimes, so it must impose harsh civil penalties. In this the Quran follows the Torah, in a haphazard and distorted way.
However, it is one thing for God to do this 1,400 hundred years before Jesus came to lead us along a better path, but it is quite another for the self-described human messenger (Sura 3:144) to do this 600 years after Jesus came. He moves society forward; Muhammad drags society backwards.
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to traditional and Biblical Christianity, sexual sin, specifically homosexuality, is no crime, but it is just that—a sin.
This is my understanding.
sin = haram = forbidden
At least that's how it was explained to me.
Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
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Well said Sheba and undercover. the difference that Muslims ignore based on ignorance everything about Christianity and Judaism as the bible corrupted and no need to take even a look coz the name of Muhammad or Ahmed not exist which means the Bible corrupted (funny hah).while Christians and Jews are reading on Islam more than Muslims(who cares only) and have left their books for researches and all the gospels that not Canonized are available online for anybody thirsty to knowledge. this is the big difference between these types.
Posts: 903 | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Well said Sheba and undercover. the difference that Muslims ignore based on ignorance everything about Christianity and Judaism as the bible corrupted and no need to take even a look coz the name of Muhammad or Ahmed not exist which means the Bible corrupted (funny hah).while Christians and Jews are reading on Islam more than Muslims(who cares only) and have left their books for researches and all the gospels that not Canonized are available online for anybody thirsty to knowledge. this is the big difference between these types.
sorry guys, im sticking to my guns here. i have been told, time and time again by baptists - not the methodists, not the catholics, only baptists and church of christ members that IF you accept "christ as your savior" his grace will save you- and you will enter heaven.
Sure, maybe its the traditional understanding and not the liberal- but it doesnt change the fact that thats what many christians believe.
loveforever, all you have to is read the bible and you'll go into convulsions from all its absurdities,contradictions,and injustices.
peace out Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- According to traditional and Biblical Christianity, sexual sin, specifically homosexuality, is no crime, but it is just that—a sin.
This is my understanding.
sin = haram = forbidden
At least that's how it was explained to me.
its not a crime? doesnt the bible say to put homosexuals to death?
and sheba, undercover just said my point again.
"Christ’s death is God’s gift to us. We are saved and on our way to heaven, not based on our own works, but on Christ’s good work on the cross. Therefore, those who trust in Christ do not have to pay the penalty for their sins."
TA DAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats right children, sin as much as you want! b/c you dont have pay as long as you "say" and "believe" that christ is your savior Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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Accepting Christ as your savior is not a guarantee into heaven. No one is saved because the "accept Christ as their savior".
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by loveforever: Well said Sheba and undercover. the difference that Muslims ignore based on ignorance everything about Christianity and Judaism as the bible corrupted and no need to take even a look coz the name of Muhammad or Ahmed not exist which means the Bible corrupted (funny hah).while Christians and Jews are reading on Islam more than Muslims(who cares only) and have left their books for researches and all the gospels that not Canonized are available online for anybody thirsty to knowledge. this is the big difference between these types.
sorry guys, im sticking to my guns here. i have been told, time and time again by baptists - not the methodists, not the catholics, only baptists and church of christ members that IF you accept "christ as your savior" his grace will save you- and you will enter heaven.
Sure, maybe its the traditional understanding and not the liberal- but it doesnt change the fact that thats what many christians believe.
loveforever, all you have to is read the bible and you'll go into convulsions from all its absurdities,contradictions,and injustices.
peace out
Hibbah,
First of all, the title of this thread is incorrect. Instead, you should have said, "There ARE Christians who permit homosexality". If you have been around fundamentalists, then they'll tell you in a flash that homosexuality is a sin condemned by God. This is how the very vast majority of the Christian world views this issue.
1 Corinthians 6:8-10 says, "8Instead, you yourselves cheat and do wrong, and you do this to your brothers.
9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."
The scriptures, New Testament and Old, are very clear that homosexuality is a sin before God, and is not permitted. Just as there are Muslims who try to twist scriptures for their own end, some so-called "Christians" do the same thing. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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I agree you can't just say the words " I accept christ" and you are saved and you can go on sinning. You need to be truly sorry and want to turn towards God and away from sin. And homosexuality is considered a sin if you act on it. The thought is one thing but a sin is acting on your impulses.I was brought up catholic and attended 13 years of catholic school. Homosexulity is a sin because God gave us the sacrament of marriage to produce children and a homosexual relationship can't do that. I am not at all against gay relationships I am just saying what I was taught all those years.
Posts: 50 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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1. Repent -- meaning to change; to be truly be sorry for what you've done in the past and desire to turn away from sin and turn toward God.
2. Believe in Jesus as your LORD and savior. We are all sinners, we've all done wrong--we've all disobeyed God (sin). Because of our sin we are offensive to God and forever separated from God. But, Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for your sin and wash away our sin. By doing this He has saved you from facing the consequences of your actions. Through the sacrificial death of Jesus on your behalf, you are acceptable to God and will have eternal life with God in heaven.
Salvation is a free gift from God. The Bible tells us how we can be saved:
"For if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved." - Romans 10:9 (NLT)
We invite you to tell Jesus about how you feel and what you have decided. Use your own words, or use the example below. Tell Jesus what has happened to you. We invite you to pray now*:
Lord Jesus in heaven, I recognize that I am a sinner. I need You in my life. Thank you for dying on the cross for me. Forgive me. I accept you as my savior and Lord. Guide me, lead me, inspire me to be the person you want me to be. Show me how to follow in Your steps. Through Jesus' name I pray. Amen.
If you have just prayed the above, or a similar prayer, please tell us about it. We'd be very happy to hear from you, and answer any questions you have.
*Salvation does not depend on saying a prayer. God already knows what has happened. However, talking with God about what has happened helps open us to God's guidance and leading as He begins working in our lives.
What do you think it takes for someone to get to heaven? Is it luck? Good deeds? Nothing at all? Or is there something more? The Bible has the real answer to this question. It's a matter of FAITH.
F stands for FORGIVENESS. We cannot have eternal life without God's forgiveness. Ephesians 1:7a says, "In Him (Jesus Christ) we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins."
A is for AVAILABLE. Forgiveness is available for all. John 3:16 says, "For God so loved the world that He gave His one and only Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life." But forgiveness is not automatic. "Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven," says Matthew 7:21a.
I is for IMPOSSIBLE. It is impossible for God to allow sin into heaven because of who He is and because of who we are. God is loving and just, but His judgment is against sin. James 2:13a says, "Because judgment without mercy will be shown to anyone who has not been merciful." We are sinful people. Romans 3:23 tells us, "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."
T is for TURN. To turn means to repent. We can repent -- or turn -- from our sin and from ourselves. "But unless you repent, you too will all perish," Luke 13:3b says. We can also turn to Someone. Trust Christ alone. Romans 10:9 tells us how: "That if you confess with your mouth, 'Jesus is Lord,' and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."
H is for HEAVEN. Heaven is eternal life. Here, that means life "to the full:" "I have come that they may have life, and have it to the full (John 10:10b)." In the hereafter, it means the promise of heaven: "And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am (John 14:3)."
So how can a person have God's forgiveness, heaven and eternal life, and Jesus as personal Savior and Lord? By trusting in Christ and asking Him for forgiveness. Take the step of faith described by another meaning of FAITH: Forsaking All I Trust Him.
You do this through a simple prayer reflecting your desire for Christ to change your life. You don't need fancy words--only an honest heart. You can pray something like this:
Lord Jesus, I know I am a sinner and have displeased You in many ways. I believe You died for my sin, and only through faith in Your death and resurrection can I be forgiven. I want to turn from my sin and ask You to come into my life as my Savior and Lord. From this day on, I will follow You by living a life that pleases You. Thank you, Lord Jesus, for saving me. Amen.
as opposed to the Catholics, who believe that good deeds are needed as well. they say this b/c it says so in James- but I guess protestants ignore that.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:i have been told, time and time again by baptists - not the methodists, not the catholics, only baptists and church of christ members that IF you accept "christ as your savior" his grace will save you- and you will enter heaven.
Hibbah, no offense. But the people you're talking to are no where near the majority. Sure some people believe that, but they are misinfomed. It happens in Islam too. So is it right to say that because some take a verse from Quran a certain way and tell others that that is the way Muslims believe it? No.
I was BAPTIST (Protestant). My whole family is. I've lived in that community, listened to hundreds of pastors, read many translations of the Bible, been to many conventions, Bible studies etc. Never ever was I or anyone I know taught that. Just as many others would tell you. But you don't listen. Why? Because you choose not to.
Just like you said we were denying hijab was a command from God. That was not true. I asked because someone told me that,a nd I got curious. Practice what you preach.
quote:Therefore, those who trust in Christ do not have to pay the penalty for their sins."
Never ever have I heard that or has it been portrayed in any form to my knowlede. Which I have to say, is far greater than yours.
quote:TA DAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! thats right children, sin as much as you want! b/c you dont have pay as long as you "say" and "believe" that christ is your savior
Wrong. That is not the belief. Accepting Christ as your savior is like taking your Shahada. (as I was taught) You accept, clean slate, now what you gonna do with it? What you do after that does affect your punishments, rewards, etc.
quote:Sure, maybe its the traditional understanding and not the liberal- but it doesnt change the fact that thats what many christians believe.
More like few. So you're saying it's ok to bash Christians becuase of the few who misunderstand? Is that what Islam teaches you that is acceptable? It doesn't me. Bashing all the people of the book, for the views of a few, is unacceptable, as I was taught. Isn't that like haram?
You don't seem to be out to learn. You seem to be out to bash. That is wrong.
Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by hibbah: its not a crime? doesnt the bible say to put homosexuals to death?
and sheba, undercover just said my point again.
Old Testament Laws also say that unobedient children should be put to death. Should we apply this punishment too?
The point with those harsh laws was to show that the price of sin is very high.
In other words, no one is "good enough" to pass God's moral standards, and no one can "save" themselves; only God Himself can save a person!
Bad News: God’s nature of perfection demands that God must judge and condemn the sinner.
God does not want to punish us however our sin separates us from having a relationship with God. Because God is holy & Righteous.
The Good News is that God’s love is unconditional. God loved us in Spite of Our Sin and God wants to have a relationship with us. It is God’s love that motivated Him to offer eternal life as a gift. Salvation is a free gift from God. To be saved by grace means that the work and credit of salvation belongs entirely to God.
The old covenant could not bring righteousness the new can. The old covenant was mediated by Moses, written on stone tablets and was conditional. The new covenant was mediated by Jesus, unconditional and is written on living human hearts.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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A christian lady knew I was muslim and she said to me that the only way I could go to heaven was if I accepted Jesus as lord and savior .
I asked about deeds if ppl built up good deeds(hasanats) can they go to heaven ,like I was raised to believe in islam. She said the only way to heaven is through Jesus.
I asked even if the person commited many sins? She said that that is why Jesus died for ours sins, so I asked her that you can commit as much sin but still enter heaven, she said yes and her reason was that humans will always sin and that only Jesus can save us.
This is what I thought all christian believed in.
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Basically, the reason Jesus had to die for our sins was so that God could satisfy the Law requirements of a perfect life and perfect sacrifice that cleanses us of our sins. We’re in sin’s death grip. God is holy and simply cannot have sin in His presence.
But All people have sinned against God. God is infinitely holy and righteous. He must punish the sinner, the Law breaker. If He didn't, then His law is not law for there is no law that is a law without a punishment. The punishment for breaking the Law is death, separation from God. "The wages for sin is death".
James 2:10 tells us: "For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all."
This means that even if you break one commandment, it is as if you broke them all for you stand guilty before the Holy God. That is God's Holy standard. None of us have kept every commandment. We have broken God's Law. We are all sinners. God’s justice requires that sin receive its full penalty. The suffering and sacrificial death of the Jesus upon the cross satisfied the requirements of God’s justice.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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"More like few. So you're saying it's ok to bash Christians becuase of the few who misunderstand? Is that what Islam teaches you that is acceptable? It doesn't me. Bashing all the people of the book, for the views of a few, is unacceptable, as I was taught. Isn't that like haram?
You don't seem to be out to learn. You seem to be out to bash. That is wrong."
DING DING DING- and sheba wins the prize.
So my anti-christian spiel was simply in answer to all the anti-islamic spiel that is on this board every damn day. Undercover, Zame, loveforever and only a few examples of the people who constantly pick and prod at aspects of Islam they "think" are messed up. I've asked before that they stop, and be respectful the to religion, but I'll tell you what- their only goal was and is- to bash and degrade Islam. NOT to learn. Or how about that fool who kept posting hadiths on here, and asking for explanations. And I repeatedly told him this wasnt the place to ask- he didnt care, he just wanted to insult the hadith. Undercover even inserts random anti islamic information into posts that ARENT even about religion.
If you want respect, you have to give respect. And unfortunately, a couple of douche bags on this forum have been nothing but disrespectful towards Islam and its followers. I HAVENT seen such a reaction against them by members on this board, except for a few posters.
Thats right, I wasnt trying to learn about christianity. I've learned enough, and dont care for anymore (except in a historical context maybe).
When I'm ticked off again about these crazy fundamentalists, I'll be back (I know they wont back off, and they'll continue to insult Islam), b/c believe me, theres plenty of material to work with. Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by laila007: I asked even if the person commited many sins? She said that that is why Jesus died for ours sins, so I asked her that you can commit as much sin but still enter heaven, she said yes and her reason was that humans will always sin and that only Jesus can save us.
Grace is a free gift of God. However, to receive the gift, there is something you need to do, right here, right now:
* Repent -This means to "change your mind" about how you live your life. Stop living for yourself and begin living in the example of Jesus.
Here is a quote from Jesus: "All [of the people] that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away." (John 6:37)
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by hibbah: "More like few. So you're saying it's ok to bash Christians becuase of the few who misunderstand? Is that what Islam teaches you that is acceptable? It doesn't me. Bashing all the people of the book, for the views of a few, is unacceptable, as I was taught. Isn't that like haram?
You don't seem to be out to learn. You seem to be out to bash. That is wrong."
DING DING DING- and sheba wins the prize.
Hibbah,
I havent been on this board long enough but I noticed that too. PPl bashing the prophet calling him names but i didnt see anyone calling that person intolerant or ignorant. Like i said , I havent been on this board for too long but I do see a double standard.
So my anti-christian spiel was simply in answer to all the anti-islamic spiel that is on this board every damn day. Undercover, Zame, loveforever and only a few examples of the people who constantly pick and prod at aspects of Islam they "think" are messed up. I've asked before that they stop, and be respectful the to religion, but I'll tell you what- their only goal was and is- to bash and degrade Islam. NOT to learn. Or how about that fool who kept posting hadiths on here, and asking for explanations. And I repeatedly told him this wasnt the place to ask- he didnt care, he just wanted to insult the hadith. Undercover even inserts random anti islamic information into posts that ARENT even about religion.
If you want respect, you have to give respect. And unfortunately, a couple of douche bags on this forum have been nothing but disrespectful towards Islam and its followers. I HAVENT seen such a reaction against them by members on this board, except for a few posters.
Thats right, I wasnt trying to learn about christianity. I've learned enough, and dont care for anymore (except in a historical context maybe).
When I'm ticked off again about these crazy fundamentalists, I'll be back (I know they wont back off, and they'll continue to insult Islam), b/c believe me, theres plenty of material to work with.
quote:Originally posted by hibbah: "More like few. So you're saying it's ok to bash Christians becuase of the few who misunderstand? Is that what Islam teaches you that is acceptable? It doesn't me. Bashing all the people of the book, for the views of a few, is unacceptable, as I was taught. Isn't that like haram?
You don't seem to be out to learn. You seem to be out to bash. That is wrong."
DING DING DING- and sheba wins the prize.
So my anti-christian spiel was simply in answer to all the anti-islamic spiel that is on this board every damn day. Undercover, Zame, loveforever and only a few examples of the people who constantly pick and prod at aspects of Islam they "think" are messed up. I've asked before that they stop, and be respectful the to religion, but I'll tell you what- their only goal was and is- to bash and degrade Islam. NOT to learn. Or how about that fool who kept posting hadiths on here, and asking for explanations. And I repeatedly told him this wasnt the place to ask- he didnt care, he just wanted to insult the hadith. Undercover even inserts random anti islamic information into posts that ARENT even about religion.
If you want respect, you have to give respect. And unfortunately, a couple of douche bags on this forum have been nothing but disrespectful towards Islam and its followers. I HAVENT seen such a reaction against them by members on this board, except for a few posters.
Thats right, I wasnt trying to learn about christianity. I've learned enough, and dont care for anymore (except in a historical context maybe).
When I'm ticked off again about these crazy fundamentalists, I'll be back (I know they wont back off, and they'll continue to insult Islam), b/c believe me, theres plenty of material to work with.
Hibbah,
I havent been on this board long enough but I noticed that too. PPl bashing the prophet calling him names but i didnt see anyone calling that person intolerant or ignorant. Like i said , I havent been on this board for too long but I do see a double standard.
Posts: 31 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
exactly Laila. its been going on for a long time, and it will continue to. the double standard is here. AS IF Islam was the only religion you could criticize. and thats my point Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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I havent been on this board long enough but I noticed that too. PPl bashing the prophet calling him names but i didnt see anyone calling that person intolerant or ignorant. Like i said , I havent been on this board for too long but I do see a double standard.
That's because you only see what you want to see.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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I havent been on this board long enough but I noticed that too. PPl bashing the prophet calling him names but i didnt see anyone calling that person intolerant or ignorant. Like i said , I havent been on this board for too long but I do see a double standard.
That's because you only see what you want to see.
No, thats because its the truth sherlock. You can dish it, but you cant take it, huh?
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote: No, thats because its the truth sherlock. You can dish it, but you cant take it, huh?
Hibbah, I luv ya. But that is exactly the behaviour you're showind.
I always thought there was more Christian bashing on here than Muslim. I chalked it up to this being Egyptian.....mostly Muslim board.
Now I think our sensitivities do play a role in this. We will all notice more the ones that offend us. Doesn't mean there is more or less of it. But that's what we notice.
BTW: I am not Christian any longer. I am Muslim. But I still find the bashing on all sides very offensive.
But that's just me.
Posts: 2133 | From: Redneckland | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by laila007: A christian lady knew I was muslim and she said to me that the only way I could go to heaven was if I accepted Jesus as lord and savior .
I asked about deeds if ppl built up good deeds(hasanats) can they go to heaven ,like I was raised to believe in islam. She said the only way to heaven is through Jesus.
I asked even if the person commited many sins? She said that that is why Jesus died for ours sins, so I asked her that you can commit as much sin but still enter heaven, she said yes and her reason was that humans will always sin and that only Jesus can save us.
This is what I thought all christian believed in.
you can't sin as much as you want. if you sin you neec to repent and truly be sorry, but we believe that Jesus will forgive us if we are truky sorry
Posts: 50 | From: USA | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Shebah: ''BTW: I am not Christian any longer. I am Muslim. But I still find the bashing on all sides very offensive.''
Shebah, it's ugly to observe the lack of respect shown by some so-called people of faith to those of different religions or none. How can anyone demand respect for a particular faith whilst showing none for the beliefs of others? The hypocrisy is staggering and saddening. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote: Shebah, it's ugly to observe the lack of respect shown by some so-called people of faith to those of different religions or none. How can anyone demand respect for a particular faith then show none to the beliefs of others? The hypocrisy is staggering and saddening.
quote:Originally posted by vuitton_girl: I agree you can't just say the words " I accept christ" and you are saved and you can go on sinning. You need to be truly sorry and want to turn towards God and away from sin. And homosexuality is considered a sin if you act on it. The thought is one thing but a sin is acting on your impulses.I was brought up catholic and attended 13 years of catholic school. Homosexulity is a sin because God gave us the sacrament of marriage to produce children and a homosexual relationship can't do that. I am not at all against gay relationships I am just saying what I was taught all those years.
Why aren't you agaisnt homosexual relationships? You already omit that homosexuality is a sin. Someone who is truly sorry for their sins and turn away from it is not saved and that too is not a guarantee into heaven.
Posts: 2088 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Shebah: I always thought there was more Christian bashing on here than Muslim. I chalked it up to this being Egyptian.....mostly Muslim board.
Now I think our sensitivities do play a role in this. We will all notice more the ones that offend us. Doesn't mean there is more or less of it. But that's what we notice.
BTW: I am not Christian any longer. I am Muslim. But I still find the bashing on all sides very offensive.
I completely agree.
There are some members who do nothing but bash the other faith, Christians as well as Muslims. It's an ongoing circle because each one claims they *have* to post their bashings in order to *refute* the bashings of the other.
What would be the result if you did a serious analysis of threads started in this particular subforum? Are there more Islam-bashing threads or more Christianity-bashing threads? And what about threads bashing everything *Western*?
I also believe there is a bit more of Christianity/West-bashing than the other way around, but it doesn't really matter. I've stated my opinion on this countless times, I'm appalled by that and I think both are wrong. And I usually ignore those posters, even if they make points I might otherwise regard as valid; in fact I usually don't even read their posts.
Sometimes it's necessary to compare to make a point, but in general I feel this leads nowhere. One person can quote parts of the old testament that seem repulsive, then another might retaliate by posting ahadeeth that are just as repulsive. Some members will go to lengths to claim how degraded *Westerners* are and that Western women are miserable creatures. Then others will reply by pointing out the atrocities committed against women in some Muslim countries. And so on.
One thing that strikes me is that those who bash usually don't know much about the very thing they are bashing. They are not open to hear the other person's perspective; instead they come with a preconceived notion based on something they've heard / read and they generalize based on that.
Does any of this lead to more mutual understanding, justice or love? Are any of those posts made out of a genuine interest to establish a dialogue? Clearly no. So what's the point? To me anyone who deems it necessary to bash another faith in order to elevate his own is a hypocrite and clearly lacking peace of mind. I wish those people would stick to sites like answering-islam and answering-christianity where they can hurl refutations and rebuttals at each other all day long, leaving people who are interested in a serious debate alone.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Shebah: I always thought there was more Christian bashing on here than Muslim. I chalked it up to this being Egyptian.....mostly Muslim board.
Now I think our sensitivities do play a role in this. We will all notice more the ones that offend us. Doesn't mean there is more or less of it. But that's what we notice.
BTW: I am not Christian any longer. I am Muslim. But I still find the bashing on all sides very offensive.
I completely agree.
There are some members who do nothing but bash the other faith, Christians as well as Muslims. It's an ongoing circle because each one claims they *have* to post their bashings in order to *refute* the bashings of the other.
What would be the result if you did a serious analysis of threads started in this particular subforum? Are there more Islam-bashing threads or more Christianity-bashing threads? And what about threads bashing everything *Western*?
I also believe there is a bit more of Christianity/West-bashing than the other way around, but it doesn't really matter. I've stated my opinion on this countless times, I'm appalled by that and I think both are wrong. And I usually ignore those posters, even if they make points I might otherwise regard as valid; in fact I usually don't even read their posts.
Sometimes it's necessary to compare to make a point, but in general I feel this leads nowhere. One person can quote parts of the old testament that seem repulsive, then another might retaliate by posting ahadeeth that are just as repulsive. Some members will go to lengths to claim how degraded *Westerners* are and that Western women are miserable creatures. Then others will reply by pointing out the atrocities committed against women in some Muslim countries. And so on.
One thing that strikes me is that those who bash usually don't know much about the very thing they are bashing. They are not open to hear the other person's perspective; instead they come with a preconceived notion based on something they've heard / read and they generalize based on that.
Does any of this lead to more mutual understanding, justice or love? Are any of those posts made out of a genuine interest to establish a dialogue? Clearly no. So what's the point? To me anyone who deems it necessary to bash another faith in order to elevate his own is a hypocrite and clearly lacking peace of mind. I wish those people would stick to sites like answering-islam and answering-christianity where they can hurl refutations and rebuttals at each other all day long, leaving people who are interested in a serious debate alone.
Dalia,
I can assure you that it ain't just Christians bashing Muslims. Honestly, I have been very respectful of people(i.e. Muslims). And I truly do have some respect. But what brings the "roaring lion" out of me is when Muslims act arrogantly towards Christians and Christianity...........I'm quite sure that all of you know what I am talking about. For instance, when Mr. Egypt was on here talking his stuff......Do you remember 'Mr. Egypt' Hibbah? I was answering your question, Hibbah, about Christianity, and then this "guy(I'm trying to be nice)" starts talking as though he knows Christianity! What type of mess is that? Therefore, me and him starting going. I asked him questions about his own religion that I KNEW he wouldn't be able to answer. Yes, because most of the Muslims who act arrogantly against Christianity do not even know about their own religion............If Sultan, or whoever, wants to test me on that, we can go............Am I being arrogant? Perhaps. If so, I'm sorry, but I am sick and tired of Muslims being arrogant towards Christians. If you are respectful towards me, then we can learn together. If not, then we debate, understand? I, however, perfer to learn, because I have something to learn from Muslims, even as they have something to learn from Christian. So in the truest sense of the spirit of the word, I say, "Salaam".
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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I can assure you that it ain't just Christians bashing Muslims.
You obviously haven't read my post properly. I said:
I also believe there is a bit more of Christianity/West-bashing than the other way around, but it doesn't really matter.
Like Shebah, I believe we tend to notice the things more that offend us. And I also think the bashing comes and goes in phases. If you go back and look at threads, for example, started in April / May of last year, you will find countless threads bashing Christianity and "the West". If you randomly klick on a page during another month you will find the opposite. As I said, it's an ongoing circle and it leads nowhere except for creating resentment and negativity.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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...I asked him questions about his own religion that I KNEW he wouldn't be able to answer. Yes, because most of the Muslims who act arrogantly against Christianity do not even know about their own religion...
This is sadly only too true on ES. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I can assure you that it ain't just Christians bashing Muslims.
You obviously haven't read my post properly. I said:
I also believe there is a bit more of Christianity/West-bashing than the other way around, but it doesn't really matter.
Like Shebah, I believe we tend to notice the things more that offend us. And I also think the bashing comes and goes in phases. If you go back and look at threads, for example, started in April / May of last year, you will find countless threads bashing Christianity and "the West". If you randomly klick on a page during another month you will find the opposite. As I said, it's an ongoing circle and it leads nowhere except for creating resentment and negativity.
True. I knew what you were saying. I said what I said in order to make a point.....Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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