posted
Christianity is perfect for chisrtians, Islam is perfect for muslims & judiasm is perfect for the Jews. Also buddhism is perfect for Buddists & so on.
Nobody can or has the right to convince anybody from another faith that their faith, beliefs or religion is flawed.
I just don't get why some people like to insult other religions & try to prove that their religion is the best? it is the best for you but not for others.
I juts hope that people should start to minding their own business & start focusing on themselves to make themseleves better believers instead of wanting others to believe in what they believe in. On the judgement day, you got only yourslelf facing god, alone, so you better work on yourslelf & leave others alone.
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT: Christianity is perfect for chisrtians, Islam is perfect for muslims & judiasm is perfect for the Jews. Also buddhism is perfect for Buddists & so on.
Actually Islam is perfect for everyone but I get your point.
Posts: 465 | Registered: Dec 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Âutomatic For The People:
quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT: Christianity is perfect for chisrtians, Islam is perfect for muslims & judiasm is perfect for the Jews. Also buddhism is perfect for Buddists & so on.
Actually Islam is perfect for everyone but I get your point.
All religions are supposed to be perfect, but people just don't apply them right. According to any religion, people are supposed to be tolerant but that's last thing I see people do
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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All religions are not perfect for everyone, which is why many see them as irrelevant in a modern world. Perfection is in the eye of the believer. Tolerance and decency is a universal language that can be demonstrated by believers and non believers of religion. Now that just may lead to a more perfect world. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT: ]Actually Islam is perfect for everyone but I get your point. All religions are supposed to be perfect, but people just don't apply them right. According to any religion, people are supposed to be tolerant but that's last thing I see people do [/QB]
?
tolerant to corruption and lies
no religion say to be so Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: All religions are not perfect for everyone,
it depend on ur*perfection* standard swys some people has no standard for perfection
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Âutomatic For The People:
quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT: Christianity is perfect for chisrtians, Islam is perfect for muslims & judiasm is perfect for the Jews. Also buddhism is perfect for Buddists & so on.
Actually Islam is perfect for everyone but I get your point.
Yeah, it is perfect for Muslims who DON'T know Christ. In other words, Christ is the way..........Do you get my meaning friend? My meaning is that that comment right there is enough to start something. I can certainly start hitting you up with Surah versus that you don't have the answer to, but that doesn't mean that I need to speak on it. I can hear you out and respect where you are coming from. Do the same when you encounter Christians. If not, then we can begin with Surah 2........lol. Salaam
Posts: 826 | From: U.S.A. | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT: ]Actually Islam is perfect for everyone but I get your point. All religions are supposed to be perfect, but people just don't apply them right. According to any religion, people are supposed to be tolerant but that's last thing I see people do
?
tolerant to corruption and lies
no religion say to be so [/QB]
WHAT?!!!!!!! Tolerant of Corruption?!! who's talking about corruption here?!!! but any way, I think we, the Muslims, are tolerant of corruption because we allow a corrupt leader to rule us for more than quarter of a century
I am talking about being tolerant to other people who are different from us, whether they are from a diffeent religion, belief or race. But I don't know why, Batman, you always change the topic....... it's as if you're slow or pretend to be so
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: All religions are not perfect for everyone,
it depend on ur*perfection* standard swys some people has no standard for perfection
Isn't it posssible for somebody to have standards, ethics & moral codes without being religious? or without following a specific religion?
why do people really need an instruction manual to be good? are you telling me that if you didnt have a religion to follow you'd be a vigilante or a gangster?
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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yup. heres what i say... a jew can get a muslim pregnant. a christian get get a jew pregnant...vice versa, you get the point. no matter where we are from and what we believe in, apparently our 'gods' are all friends because we all got 10 fingers 10 toes, 2 eyes, a nose, etc and we are all compatible when it comes to makin babies so there.
Posts: 229 | From: florida | Registered: Apr 2007
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Right MissJambi, we are people. Jews are people & Christians are people. If anybody hates an entire group of people because of their religion or race then they are considered racists
-------------------- Femme Fatale Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: All religions are not perfect for everyone,
it depend on ur*perfection* standard swys some people has no standard for perfection
God is perfect, Batman. Is that standard good enough for you?
Man made religions, to me, lack perfection, as they were created by men seeking to explain 'God'. Humans have always sought to determine creation and that is a noble quest. I can't buy into religions simply as they don't adequately explain our creator. They make guesses at 'God' based on the time they were written. To me, this is extreme arrogance and trying to enforce your idea of 'God' on others is disrespectful and wrong.
There is no proof of 'God'. There is only belief and faith. You believe what you like. I'll believe what I like. What distinguishes people is how they behave not which version of God they believe in, imho.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: All religions are not perfect for everyone,
it depend on ur*perfection* standard swys some people has no standard for perfection
God is perfect, Batman. Is that standard good enough for you?
Man made religions, to me, lack perfection, as they were created by men seeking to explain 'God'. Humans have always sought to determine creation and that is a noble quest. I can't buy into religions simply as they don't adequately explain our creator. They make guesses at 'God' based on the time they were written. To me, this is extreme arrogance and trying to enforce your idea of 'God' on others is disrespectful and wrong.
There is no proof of 'God'. There is only belief and faith. You believe what you like. I'll believe what I like. What distinguishes people is how they behave not which version of God they believe in, imho.
And they always have that description of God as scary & vengeful!!!! And tha's not the way i want to view god at all. God is more beautiful & Bigger than such labels !!!!!
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Âutomatic For The People:
quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT: Christianity is perfect for chisrtians, Islam is perfect for muslims & judiasm is perfect for the Jews. Also buddhism is perfect for Buddists & so on.
Actually Islam is perfect for everyone but I get your point.
Yeah, it is perfect for Muslims who DON'T know Christ. In other words, Christ is the way..........Do you get my meaning friend? My meaning is that that comment right there is enough to start something. I can certainly start hitting you up with Surah versus that you don't have the answer to, but that doesn't mean that I need to speak on it. I can hear you out and respect where you are coming from. Do the same when you encounter Christians. If not, then we can begin with Surah 2........lol. Salaam
Although I do respect Christians, jews, hindus, sikhs, atheists and every color and creed on earth and elsewhere but I dont like this threat and I KNOW for a fact , with absolute confidence that there is NOTHING in the sura versus that cant be answered. Check my previous posts if you're not sure and I dont mind beginning where you like, Israel!
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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Exactly, CAT. God, to me, is infinitely merciful and kind, judging fairly on what we do, according to our circumstances - not some figure to cower before in fear.
''And they always have that description of God as scary & vengeful!!!! And tha's not the way i want to view god at all. God is more beautiful & Bigger than such labels !!!!! '': CAT
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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the thing alot of people dont seem to get CAT is that no one will want to 'join' a religion if the people in it are bitchin all the time...
If i shop in Tesco i'm not gonna change to sainsburys if i get laughed at and made fun of every time i leave Tescos by the posse from Sainsbury's thinking they are superior to me... nope, i'm gonna reach right down in my bag an throw my tomatoes at 'em.......
We should all be able to shop in peace! lol And maybe, just maybe, when those people from sainsbury's are handing out those nice little chocolate freebies with a smile on their face, i might just venture inside and see what else they have to offer Posts: 1017 | From: uk | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by caterpillar: the thing alot of people dont seem to get CAT is that no one will want to 'join' a religion if the people in it are bitchin all the time...
Yes, and they don't get it, if they keep bitching about other religions, nobody from another religion would view them favorably nor would want to join them. they are actualy turning off & scaring everybody.
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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Islam also sets a real challenge by providing us with an enemy, a real one, so that one doesn't have to create or invent one. The enemy is Satan! It has no powers over humans, but it has been given the ability and freedom to confuse and to seduce. The humans too have their freedom to succumb or to spurn. A real drama requires a real villain, and you cannot prove your love without being able to reject the seductions of the villain.Islam invites us all to face our common and real foe, the foe that cannot be wished away. All our future depends on how we deal with the real enemy. Dont succumb ,and its easy to say so than do .
Undercover/cats in craddle stop bitching about my religion and I will stop bitching about ur religion
Posts: 2728 | From: جمهورية مصر العربية | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: Ha Ha
LOL @ "Bitching"!!!
Undercover/cats in craddle stop bitching about my religion and I will stop bitching about ur religion
well it just makes you like her then 1+1=2 just do something nice on the quran or a nice peace from the bible to show there is not a boundry when it comes to faith ..And your not like her at all . there should not be a YOUR OR MY ...
Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine: Ha Ha
LOL @ "Bitching"!!!
Undercover/cats in craddle stop bitching about my religion and I will stop bitching about ur religion
Batman, why are you s defensive about ur religion? religion is not your mother to defend it's honour !!!!
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by shahkerdah: Islam also sets a real challenge by providing us with an enemy, a real one, so that one doesn't have to create or invent one. The enemy is Satan! It has no powers over humans, but it has been given the ability and freedom to confuse and to seduce. The humans too have their freedom to succumb or to spurn. A real drama requires a real villain, and you cannot prove your love without being able to reject the seductions of the villain.Islam invites us all to face our common and real foe, the foe that cannot be wished away. All our future depends on how we deal with the real enemy. Dont succumb ,and its easy to say so than do .
SWYS: Now I understand why you confuse me with "Shakerdah" the mental retard of ES. I see she is copying my posting style.
A few days ago I recieved a PM from her titled "HAHAHAHAHAHA", and she sure seemed entertained by the fact that people confuse me with her. Only an unstable person like her would think this is funny.
Don't be fooled, she is spreading confusion on purpose.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by shahkerdah: Islam also sets a real challenge by providing us with an enemy, a real one, so that one doesn't have to create or invent one. The enemy is Satan! It has no powers over humans, but it has been given the ability and freedom to confuse and to seduce. The humans too have their freedom to succumb or to spurn. A real drama requires a real villain, and you cannot prove your love without being able to reject the seductions of the villain.Islam invites us all to face our common and real foe, the foe that cannot be wished away. All our future depends on how we deal with the real enemy. Dont succumb ,and its easy to say so than do .
SWYS: Now I understand why you confuse me with "Shakerdah" the mental retard of ES. I see she is copying my posting style.
A few days ago I recieved a PM from her titled "HAHAHAHAHAHA", and she sure seemed entertained by the fact that people confuse me with her. Only an unstable person like her would think this is funny.
Don't be fooled, she is spreading confusion on purpose.
no your confusing cause im am you .. Posts: 4597 | Registered: Jun 2006
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I am not bitching about your religion Batman. I just wanted to correct some of the misconceptions you posted about Christianity. I am not offended by your posts by the way, I am not expecting you to have a deep knowledge of Christianity. So when you write an innacuracy I am not offended.
Also when you post innaccuracies about Islam, I feel tempted to correct you. I want to know where do you get those ideas about Muhammad, being the perfect example with sublime morals etc, etc. It's not that I want to malign Islam, I sincerely want to know how you got to that conclusion. You bring me 'evidence' to support your views but when I refute them with stronger evidence, from the very Quran (or the hadiths), then I am called a hater of Islam. That's not fair play.
quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT: I juts hope that people should start to minding their own business & start focusing on themselves to make themseleves better believers instead of wanting others to believe in what they believe in. On the judgement day, you got only yourslelf facing god, alone, so you better work on yourslelf & leave others alone.
I can only speak for myself but honestly I have not seen anyone trying to force his/her beliefs on anyone. This is a discussion forum about religion! It is inevitable that our views will clash. What is your idea of tolerance? To agree with everything you say? If Batman says that Jesus is not God is he being disrespectful towards me? If he says that he considers the hijab obligatory is he being intolerant? I have not seen him threatening anyone to wear the hijab! Nor am I trying to convience anyone of Christianity. We are simply discussing that's all.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by shahkerdah: Islam also sets a real challenge by providing us with an enemy, a real one, so that one doesn't have to create or invent one. The enemy is Satan! It has no powers over humans, but it has been given the ability and freedom to confuse and to seduce. The humans too have their freedom to succumb or to spurn. A real drama requires a real villain, and you cannot prove your love without being able to reject the seductions of the villain.Islam invites us all to face our common and real foe, the foe that cannot be wished away. All our future depends on how we deal with the real enemy. Dont succumb ,and its easy to say so than do .
SWYS: Now I understand why you confuse me with "Shakerdah" the mental retard of ES. I see she is copying my posting style.
A few days ago I recieved a PM from her titled "HAHAHAHAHAHA", and she sure seemed entertained by the fact that people confuse me with her. Only an unstable person like her would think this is funny.
Don't be fooled, she is spreading confusion on purpose.
Oh God, it is a continual battle with mental midgets on ES. 'Undercover', others have told me that you are Chimps. You both use cut and paste, stealing the words of others, without crediting the source, as a standard ploy. I was suspicious that Cats In The Cradle was Chimps but we'll see. One thing is for sure, the psycho never went away, as sick games are her life.
Ms Psycho: ''Islam also sets a real challenge by providing us with an enemy, a real one, so that one doesn't have to create or invent one. The enemy is Satan! It has no powers over humans, but it has been given the ability and freedom to confuse and to seduce. The humans too have their freedom to succumb or to spurn. A real drama requires a real villain, and you cannot prove your love without being able to reject the seductions of the villain.''
Chimps stole all of the words above, from : http://www.albalagh.net/general/islam_friend.shtml ''Islam also sets a real challenge by providing us with an enemy, a real one, so that one doesn't have to create or invent one. The enemy is Satan! It has no powers over humans, but it has been given the ability and freedom to confuse and to seduce. The humans too have their freedom to succumb or to spurn. A real drama requires a real villain, and you cannot prove your love without being able to reject the seductions of the villain.''
Don't worry, Undercover. Schizophrenics need somewhere to post and there is enough room at the ES Inn for all of the psychotic personalities. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT: I juts hope that people should start to minding their own business & start focusing on themselves to make themseleves better believers instead of wanting others to believe in what they believe in. On the judgement day, you got only yourslelf facing god, alone, so you better work on yourslelf & leave others alone.
I can only speak for myself but honestly I have not seen anyone trying to force his/her beliefs on anyone. This is a discussion forum about religion! It is inevitable that our views will clash. What is your idea of tolerance? To agree with everything you say? If Batman says that Jesus is not God is he being disrespectful towards me? If he says that he considers the hijab obligatory is he being intolerant? I have not seen him threatening anyone to wear the hijab! Nor am I trying to convience anyone of Christianity. We are simply discussing that's all. [/QB]
Find me a sentence that I wrote which mentioned that people have to agree with me to be tolerant, I certainly never said that. I respect other people's beliefs & i don't wish to change them, nor do i want people to change mine.
Batman calls anyone who disagrees with him as "kafir", he also calls anyone who is non-muslim "kafir".
My original post in this thread was not directed at one person in particular, it was directed to everybody. And just like you're discussing I am also discussing
Posts: 3128 | From: Not Your Heaven | Registered: Sep 2006
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"'Undercover', others have told me that you are Chimps."
Nope. The content of our posts are totally different.
"I was suspicious that Cats In The Cradle was Chimps but we'll see. [Big Grin]"
No it was me. I don't have the password anymore.
"Don't worry, Undercover. Schizophrenics need somewhere to post and there is enough room at the ES Inn for all of the psychotic personalities. [Razz]"
Don't worry SWYS, I am as sane as one can be. It is not me with the multiple personality disorder screaming for attention..
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Fair enough, Undercover. I'll take you at your word, for now. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Undercover: Also when you post innaccuracies about Islam, I feel tempted to correct you. I want to know where do you get those ideas about Muhammad, being the perfect example with sublime morals etc, etc. It's not that I want to malign Islam, I sincerely want to know how you got to that conclusion. You bring me 'evidence' to support your views but when I refute them with stronger evidence, from the very Quran (or the hadiths), then I am called a hater of Islam. That's not fair play.
Grooaaan How hopeless!
"YOU" bring evidence "FROM" the quran to refute that Mohammad had great morals????????????
How do you believe that? How can anybody delude themselves so mcuh?
The quran SAYS that Mohammad has great morals. Now, you wanna convince us that you and only you can see in the quran what we dont see....while you dont even speak the language of the quran and have not spent years of your life studying it like the scholars we learn from?
If you really can look yourself in the eye and believe what you're saying, then You ARE hopeless!
And yes you are being offensive. You post very impudent accusations day after day. I have to come in here to prove you wrong everyday. I dont set myself to post similar stuff about your religion. Do you notice this ever? I only reply to YOUR offensive posts. So dont pretend to be the innocent civilised debator. You're an attacker most of the time. if you could restrict yourself to rpesenting the views of christianity without having a go at Islam (out of all other religions) you might be able to lay a claim to innocence.
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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It's not very difficult to work out what's tolerant and what isnt. AS I said, it's very easy for me to step over the boundary I set for myself and start firing post that defile christianity but I dont do that out of respect. I'm sure if you try to control yourself in this way a bit, maybe even Batman would moderate his language towards you.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:The quran SAYS that Mohammad has great morals.
Let us put this claim to the test. In our case we want to know about Muhammad and how he lived his life.
We have enough evidence in the Quran, in the books of history and in the hadith to know that Muhammad's claim is false. Forget about what he CLAIMS to be. Read between the lines and pay attention to what he DOES and commands. His actions speak louder than his words. If I make a claim that I am a compassionate person and then go and torture and massacre people then what does that make me?
Confucius said the greatness of a man is in how much his words and his deeds match. A person who does not walk his own talk is not worthy of trust.
Muhammad claimed to have "sublime morals" (68:4) and be “a good example to follow" (33:21). How can Muslims follow his examples if those examples are not recorded? Denying the hadith make it impossible for Muslims to practice Islam properly or follow the examples of Muhammad and therefore the quranic injunctions cannot be observed. In fact without the haidth, none of the rituals of Islam, such as salat, hajj and fasting can be performed and these are the pillars of Islam. Without the hadith and Sira the very historicity of Muhammad becomes dubious.
It is not up to you or any one else to discard the hadiths because they go against your conscience. You and I cannot sit and choose what we like from the hadithes and discard what we don’t like. What criteria shall me use? Are we supposed to learn about the real Muhammad as he was or the ideal Muhammad that we have created in our imaginations. Who are we supposed to follow? A mythological superman who never existed outside our fantasies or the real Muhammad ibn Abdullah? If you want to deny them, then by what proof can you be sure of the very existence of Muhammad? If you deny the historic facts of ahadith, then you are opening the door for someone to deny the historicity of Muhammad himself.
Muslims often says Muhammad cannot be incriminated based on hadiths because their authenticity cannot be proven. What about the authenticity of the Quran? Can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran? How do we know that Muhammad did not lie? How do we know the entity that he claimed visited him was not Satan pretending to be Gabriel? How could he know the difference if he never met Gabriel? If Muhammad admitted that he was fooled once by Satan, how do we know he was not fooled more often? If Satan is the master of deceptions, how can we be sure that Islam is not a trick of Satan?
How do we know the Quran that we have today is the original one? Who collected it? Was this person(s) trustworthy? How can we be sure that it is preserved without alteration? If it was possible for the Jews and the Christians to corrupt their books, hundreds of years after they were written, as Muhammad has claimed, to erase his name, how can we be sure that Muslims did not do the same with the Quran only a few years after his death? At that time no copy of the Quran even existed, so although the accusation of Muhammad that the Bible is corrupted is farfetched, it is not illogical to believe that the Quran was corrupted even before it was collected and put into a single binder. Can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran in a court of law? See how easily you fall in the same traps that you set? All I have to do to demolish your argument is take it and use it against you.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by homing pigeon: What I find difficult with this concept in particular is that if Christ was God, then he was killed by his own creation!!!! Couldnt he come up with a miracle or something? And how can a God die?
This was a question I was asked by a 8 year old Muslim boy. It really does appear that enlightenment is a gift from God. It doesnt really need that much intellect....just abit of instinctive faith.
quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT:
quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: All religions are not perfect for everyone,
it depend on ur*perfection* standard swys some people has no standard for perfection
Isn't it posssible for somebody to have standards, ethics & moral codes without being religious? or without following a specific religion?
It is possible but the person not being religious doesn't change the fact that those standards,ethics and moral codes are most defiantly derived from one religion or another. What most seculare fanatics appear to miss is the fact that their set of moral code was influcned by religion. They learned it from parents,teachers,friends,neighbours, reading ..etc. They did not just make them up from nothing. They were not born in a jungle but in societies of rules, laws and traditions that are based on religon.
The question is, now that they have developed their own set of moral code and believe that they no longer need religion to guide them, can their society survive as long as it has with the help of religious guidance? The clear answer is NO.......
Posts: 465 | Registered: Dec 2006
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Of course the post is copy and paste as it clearly comes from someone who has not read any of the information I have tried to no avail to give you. Information that can, incidentally, be verified had you wanted.
AAAAAAND, the snide remark without an S is a single question I posed. A question that could be addressed in a civilised way. This is what discussion boards are about. I did not include any lies or attacks of my fabrication.How does that compare to your behaviour? Anyway, I have no intention to be drawn into self defence because I dont need to. Everybody here who has eyes can see for themselves.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Âutomatic For The People:
]The question is, now that they have developed their own set of moral code and believe that they no longer need religion to guide them, can their society survive as long as it has with the help of religious guidance? The clear answer is NO....... [/QB]
I agree to that. It wont last. It would be a downward spiral. But, hey, that's my own opinion and I'm not on a mission to convert anybody. So everybody's welcome to keep their beliefs as long as they leave mine alone!
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Âutomatic For The People:
quote:Originally posted by *The Dark Angel* aka CAT:
quote:Originally posted by Batman, non-stop, righteous machine:
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: All religions are not perfect for everyone,
it depend on ur*perfection* standard swys some people has no standard for perfection
Isn't it posssible for somebody to have standards, ethics & moral codes without being religious? or without following a specific religion?
It is possible but the person not being religious doesn't change the fact that those standards,ethics and moral codes are most defiantly derived from one religion or another. What most seculare fanatics appear to miss is the fact that their set of moral code was influcned by religion. They learned it from parents,teachers,friends,neighbours, reading ..etc. They did not just make them up from nothing. They were not born in a jungle but in societies of rules, laws and traditions that are based on religon.
The question is, now that they have developed their own set of moral code and believe that they no longer need religion to guide them, can their society survive as long as it has with the help of religious guidance? The clear answer is NO.......
This is such a predictable, simplistic, old argument. Of course secularists recognise history and the influences of many different religions on the development of the world's nations. Dismissing history is not what secularism is about. Do secularists oppose people having religion? Absolutely not and there is something sinister about those that wish to promote such a view. Why do some religious people fear the beliefs of others so intensely? Religion is seen as a private matter by secularists, nothing more or less. You can be a secularist and be religious and it's curious that this fact is often overlooked by the insecure, religious control freaks out there.
A decent secular democracy encourages all beliefs to thrive by not imposing the views of one religion on society. Religious fanatics are the real threat. Will secular societies survive? The clear answer is YES. Secular societies will THRIVE and are thriving. The tolerance of secularism, in progressive democracies, combined with learning from past mistakes is a far healthier recipe for humanity. Human beings aren't frozen in the past. We are constantly learning, adapting and striving to make things better. Throughout history, religions have been discarded, plagiarised and new forms introduced. People are more than capable of working together, in relative harmony, if given the chance to do so. There is room for the religious and the non religious in respectful societies. It's a shame that some people are too blind to see this.
Question why secularism is taught to be a bad thing, in some countries, by some religions. Is it a self-protection method? Is it meant to discourage and disadvantage those with different or opposing views? The answer is a clear YES.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Now you got me confused SWYS . Is the discussion (at least Auto's post) about religion versus non religion or is it religion versus secular democracy (between which I cant see any relation)?
Is Auto advocating theocratic states? I didnt think so.
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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We have enough evidence in the Quran, in the books of history and in the hadith to know that Muhammad's claim is false. .................. all the way till the end of ur post .......... is not illogical to believe that the Quran was corrupted even before it was collected and put into a single binder. Can anyone prove the authenticity of the Quran in a court of law? See how easily you fall in the same traps that you set? All I have to do to demolish your argument is take it and use it against you. [/qb]
Now I come to your "idiotic" assertions. The quran may have been collected a few years after Mohammad's death but COPIES OF ITS separate verses DID EXIST, unlike your totally unsusbstantiated "idiotic" claim! You even recounted in one fo your posts that Omar ibn elkattab's story when he hit his siter. You know whay he hit her of course? She wouldnt give him the script of the quran she was reading. Are those stories useful to use for attack and deniable once they are used against your false claims?
And, yes, actually the men who collected the quran are trustworthy people. If you had done any level of simple research about them you could obtain easily their biographies and details about the social structure within which they lived and would have been able to come to this conclusion yourself , or, at least see it written by respectable modern writers who looked at this issue closely. Instead you accuse Ghandi, Bernard Shaw, karen Armstrong, Encyclopedia Brittanica, Wshington Irving, Bosworth Smith, times magazine....ets of lying just because you dont like what they say.
As to discarding hadiths, that shows you've not been listening to anything being said or even doing proper research around what you are talking about. I or any othe rMuslim member here do not discard hadiths that do not fit our conscience. I point out the limitations of Bukhari's method that have been pointed out by many Islamic and non Islamic scholars. I also add that modern hadith scholars have added a stipulation about the content of hadiths in order to confirm its authenticity.
And all your how and how up there can be asked about christianity as well.
You also ask US to read between the lines. I wonder if you have read the whole quran even once! Did YOU read between the lines? or are you looking at second hand quote all the time? Arab Muslims who can read the quran in Arabic use it to pray with everyday 5 times a day. We also spend time reading it outside of prayers. You can easily expect us to read it through from one end ot one end , like , once a month....the least enthusiastic of us would do it once a year so by the time you're 35 ,say, you've read it in its entirety some two dozen times at least. Are you going to tell me that YOU see betwen the lines while the people who have read it so often dont? Besides, we listen to Friday prayer sermons every week where scholars explain the quran, we watch telivision channels where religious programs are broadcast and scholars explain the quran. Undercover, reaaaaallly, you cant be real!
Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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posted
As to Muslims, who believe in the quran as the word of God, Undercover's claim regarding the truth of the quran, its accuracy and preservance can be FURTHER refuted by these verses:
ان علينا جمعه و قرآنه [75:17] It is for Us to collect it and to give you the ability to recite it (the Qur'ân).
Also translated by Dr.Ghali as : [75:17] Surely upon Us is the gathering of it and its all-evident reading.
AND إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ (الحجر:9). [15.9]Surely We, Ever We, have been sending down the Remembrance, and surely We are indeed Preservers of it.
[15.9] Verily We, it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e. the Qur'ân) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).
As to Undercover's inability to see the truth, note this verse
[36.9] And We have made before them (Literally: between their hands) a barrier and behind them a barrier, then We enveloped them, so they do not behold (the Truth).
AND THIS VERSE خَتَمَ اللَّهُ عَلَى قُلُوبِهِمْ وَعَلَى سَمْعِهِمْ وَعَلَى أَبْصَارِهِمْ غِشَاوَةٌ وَلَهُمْ عَذَابٌ عَظِيمٌ (البقرة:7). [1:7]Allah has set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing; and on their be-holdings (i.e. eyesights) is an envelopment. And for them is a tremendous torment.
-------------------- Noha Posts: 670 | From: alex living in leeds, UK | Registered: Jun 2005
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