Fasting, like all the other obligations in Islam, becomes mandatory at bulugh. That is when a person reaches the age of puberty. There is a Hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in which he said, "Tell your children to pray when they are seven years old and discipline them if they don't when they are ten years old."
The same can be said about fasting. That is, we should encourage our children to fast when they are seven years old and we should emphasize fasting to them when they are ten, but it becomes obligatory when they reach the age of puberty. http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/Satellite?cid=1119503543608&pagename= IslamOnline-English-Ask_Scholar%2FFatwaE%2FFatwaEAskTheScholar
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If you want a child to pass an exam, what do you do? You teach him discipline. If you want to succeed in this life, you need discipline to achieve it. If you want to succeed in the Afterlife, you also need to be disciplined. If a parent doesn't teach their child this from an early age, who will teach them? A parent who doesn't discipline their children will have wild unruly children who don't know how to discipline themselves. There are many ways this can be done that are effective and beneficial, the more imaginative the parent, the more fun the learning can be.
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My step-daughter fasted for the first time last year, and she was 10. She was very excited about it and loved feeling like one of the grown-ups.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Children aren't born muslims, catholics, whatever - the faith of their parents is often imposed upon them, imho. The ability to think critically is a discipline parents should aquire and pass on. Forcing children to fast by disciplining them sounds more like brainwashing.
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posted
Every parent disciplines and teaches their children based on their own system of beliefs of what is good for their children. They teach them right and wrong based on their own values. A parent who believes in the importance of material success will try to teach their child the skills they need to achieve that; a parent who believes in children expressing themselves creativity will encourage them to develop their creative skills; an atheist who firmly believes that there is no such thing as a God will do all they can to teach their child what they believe and discourage any affiliation to something that they feel will harm their child; and a parent who believes in Allah and that this life is a preparation for the afterlife will try to teach them the skills that will give them success in this. They are all doing what they feel is best for their child.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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How can faith be taught through discipline? How will a child learn to love a faith / to love God, if it's forced to pray or fast?
The idea of punishing a child for not praying or fasting seems deeply repulsive to me, not to mention useless and counterproductive.
How can a child grow into a strong and spiritual human being, if it's taught from an early age on that discipline and obeying orders is more important than learning to listen to yourself and your inner voice?
Also, your post sounds as if discipline in everything is the most important skill anyone could master ... I find that very sad. Discipline without spirit, without freedom, without critical thinking, without love and emotion is completely useless.
I come from a society that used to value discipline tremendously and still does to a certain extent. But I'm feeling more and more that focussing on discipline is not the right way to anything ...
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I remember being disclipined if I wouldn't willingly attend mass with my family growing up. I wasn't hit or beaten or anything but I did get stuck with chores (housework, etc.) or taking away privilidges. Of course as a child you just want to do what you want to do, as I grew up I actually liked going to church or Sunday School (remember those days?).
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I only addressed the concept of discipline as it was the only part of my post that you chose to react to.
I agree with you totally that it isn't the only or even the most important skill that a child needs to learn, there are many other skills that they need to learn to become a fully rounded human being. It is however an area that is sadly lacking in many homes in the west these days. A large proportion of western parents have become so afraid of the word discipline and are afraid of potential accusations of child abuse that they give into their children and do not try to control them at all. When parents say that they can't do X, Y, or Z because their 1, 2, 3, 4 year old child won't let them it seems to be a clear indication of who is controlling many families nowadays.
Discipline doesn't have to be enforced by aggressive means, there are many other ways of encouraging children to be more disciplined in their behaviour, but it does need to be a part of people's lives.
Of course the spiritual/emotional side of life is important, and it is a major part of Islam; if you don't feel a closeness to Allah and want to please Him the other parts of the religion would be empty and meaningless. But Islam also encourage self discipline and the rituals and acts of worship are part of the training towards that.
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Isn't the number one, and only important disciplinarian, Allah? I mean we as believers pray, fast, etc. because in the end, we are afraid of the punishment of hell. At least I am anyways.
If I never disciplined my children they would never learn right from wrong. I'm not saying physical discipline since I have never done that but a time out or taking away of priveleges is not such a bad thing when a child will not do what the parent tells them to do.
The way I see it in the end, when all is said and done and I am face to face with my book of what I did right and wrong, I don't want to read that I never taught my children how important God is. I am responsible for two little human beings and if I do not guide them in the right way then they will be guided by others and who knows where that will lead.
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: How can faith be taught through discipline? How will a child learn to love a faith / to love God, if it's forced to pray or fast?
In the same way as being made to go to school can teach a child to love education and learning.
It is a parents responsibility to make sure that a child participates in activities that will benefit them and if they don't do them, to find ways to make sure that they do them, like getting up in the morning, going to bed at a decent time, going to school, eating vegetables, cleaning their teeth, having a bath and washing their hair, not playing with kids that could lead them into bad ways, and for a Muslim child, praying and fasting. All these are things that, given half a chance, a child would not do, but parents make their children do them and discipline them if they don't do them, but in time children come to adopt them as a way of life and even if they don't actually end up loving them, most kids eventually see the benefit in them.
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I used to try on the weekends when I was 7. I started doing the whole month when I was 10 (I found it very exciting). My parents never forced me to do anything. I wanted to start when I was 10, they did their best to support me but never were overbearing. But they have this thing, where they constantly encouraged me to have self-initiative to want more/learn more/etc from faith (ie prayer/reading the quran/etc.) and education (ie I'd have to want to pick up the dictionary and learn the new word, etc.). They expected that from me at a very early age (that responsibility of self-initiative), I felt it was challenging as a child--but to be really honest it helped me grow in many ways.
This is not for all, and many who have other views on raising children are welcome to disagree (and I have no interest in arguing), I just decided to share my experiences.
-------------------- Disclaimer: My posts are not meant to personally offend anyone. If you find yourself reading my posts repeatedly, you are kindly asked to seek the help of a professional Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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What I see as I look around me with younger kids is a few, and I do mean a few, who ask to start practicing fasting and willingly do it - mostly in an effort to be like the others around them but nonetheless believing it is a religous requirement and wanting to participate. The parents of these children gently approve and balance moderation ("let's try half a day and see how you feel") with encouragement.
However, I also have to note alot of pressure on kids from other parents who threaten and bribe their younger kids (prepuberty, ect) and do not want to take the chance of letting kids decide on their own when and if they are ready to fast. Personally, I think it is a VERY difficult and strenous thing to impose or require of anyone who is not of adult age. We do not live in a society conducive to supporting a young adolescent fasting...school and other activities are strenous. How many kids are actually getting anything spiritual out of the experience...very few I surmise.
Too many Muslims are strict about this from a fear based position of worrying what others will think if their pubebescent child isn't fasting or their older child. It's always such a measuring stick.
Discipline in any harsh way is revolting around something that is supposed to be for self reflection and closeness to God.
I am very glad my husband is not pushing on this issue...I have alot of reservations about children fasting.
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My oldest son is 11 and he will (attempt to) fast the whole month this year. His father and I aren't going to punish him if he can't do it everyday though. We'll both encourage him to try his best. My younger son is 9 so he'll continue to do partial days as a practice.
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quote:Originally posted by humanist: What I see as I look around me with younger kids is a few, and I do mean a few, who ask to start practicing fasting and willingly do it - mostly in an effort to be like the others around them but nonetheless believing it is a religous requirement and wanting to participate. The parents of these children gently approve and balance moderation ("let's try half a day and see how you feel") with encouragement.
However, I also have to note alot of pressure on kids from other parents who threaten and bribe their younger kids (prepuberty, ect) and do not want to take the chance of letting kids decide on their own when and if they are ready to fast. Personally, I think it is a VERY difficult and strenous thing to impose or require of anyone who is not of adult age. We do not live in a society conducive to supporting a young adolescent fasting...school and other activities are strenous. How many kids are actually getting anything spiritual out of the experience...very few I surmise.
Too many Muslims are strict about this from a fear based position of worrying what others will think if their pubebescent child isn't fasting or their older child. It's always such a measuring stick.
Discipline in any harsh way is revolting around something that is supposed to be for self reflection and closeness to God.
I am very glad my husband is not pushing on this issue...I have alot of reservations about children fasting.
I don't know how widespread it is about children wanting to. My family is a family of hermits, so we didn't have other children or people who practiced it that influenced me. I remember learning about it (ie about Ramadan and Islam), but not being encouraged to fast or told to ever. I mean, even prayer, I was always asked would you like come join us, by my parents--but not ever told to. Maybe it doesn't work with all children but being aware of what religion entails, and not really being coerced into doing certain things, made me more curious. As a child, I was always frustrated with my parents lenient policy on it: the response on most things was it's up to you. As for the spiritual experience--I don't know but I have memories as a 10 year old getting something more than not just eating out of it. I remember that if a classmate said something that wasn't so nice to me, if I was fasting I wasn't supposed to say anything mean back (it was more than not just eating). When I did come into contact with other muslim children, who's families did seem to enforce this stuff on their kids--I always felt like an outcast. When I would complain to my parents, they would always say we have a right to exist as we are and don't worry about what they think. There isn't any person who is the ultimate judge of others.
In retrospect, the practice that I had as a child helped me with my faith. It's almost like studying, if you don't learn the basics of reading and writing--it's hard to grow. This isn't assuming you have to pick these things up as a child, you can pick it up at any age; but just that it takes practice to see how you really feel about it.
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posted
Encouraging and supporting children as they learn seems fine to me. Forcing, training or disciplining a child to adopt the same faith as their parents is not. Such an approach leads to questions about human rights, in my opinion. Children should be educated, not indoctrinated, until they are old enough to decide for themselves.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: A parent who doesn't discipline their children will have wild unruly children who don't know how to discipline themselves. There are many ways this can be done that are effective and beneficial
Could you give a concrete example how you would discipline your child if it doesn't pray?
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
LOL, I had forgotten all about this thread and moved onto thinking about other things, but if you want to come back to it, here are some further thoughts.
If you want to change a child's behaviour, any methods you use have to be relevant to the behaviour, and also suitable and effective for the child. And like you, as I haven't raised a child as a Muslim mother through this stage of their life, I can only try to give you a theoretical/hypothetical example. I can't even give you a practical examples from friends of mine, as their children have all been praying well before the age of ten. Other people have already given examples of teaching kids about adherence religious rituals from their own experiences, but if you want me to give a potential example, this is perhaps a relevant one.
If I had spent seven years trying to get my child interested in praying and then three years trying to encourage my child to pray from the age of seven, and by the age of ten they were refusing to pray, I would be questioning my parenting skills for a start. But if I was in that position, then I would remind them again that all they had was a gift from Allah, their life, their food, their family, their toys, their friends, and their leisure time, and if they couldn't do something simple like showing respect to His request to pray then maybe they didn't deserve all the gifts he gave them. And to teach them that it was necessary to show respect and gratitude to those we depend on or we risk losing some of the luxuries that come from that relationship, I would start to withhold privileges from them, so maybe they didn't get that extra toy, that trip to the beach, to play with their friends, to have that ice cream....or whatever. Just a possible idea.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: I would remind them again that all they had was a gift from Allah, their life, their food, their family, their toys, their friends, and their leisure time, and if they couldn't do something simple like showing respect to His request to pray then maybe they didn't deserve all the gifts he gave them. And to teach them that it was necessary to show respect and gratitude to those we depend on or we risk losing some of the luxuries that come from that relationship, I would start to withhold privileges from them, so maybe they didn't get that extra toy, that trip to the beach, to play with their friends, to have that ice cream....or whatever. Just a possible idea.
If that's what you would do, then why are you posting an excerpt from a fatwa that suggests physical punishment?
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: I would remind them again that all they had was a gift from Allah, their life, their food, their family, their toys, their friends, and their leisure time, and if they couldn't do something simple like showing respect to His request to pray then maybe they didn't deserve all the gifts he gave them. And to teach them that it was necessary to show respect and gratitude to those we depend on or we risk losing some of the luxuries that come from that relationship, I would start to withhold privileges from them, so maybe they didn't get that extra toy, that trip to the beach, to play with their friends, to have that ice cream....or whatever. Just a possible idea.
If that's what you would do, then why are you posting an excerpt from a fatwa that suggests physical punishment?
Inshaa Allah I'll let Newcomer give her reply if she deems it necessary. I think the fatwa and information that she has eloquently stated is sufficient.
The sound advice can't be any clear to some Muslims as we are told what to do with our children by the Beloved Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam. She quoted him as saying: There is a Hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in which he said,
"Tell your children to pray when they are seven years old and discipline (beat) them if they don't when they are ten years old."
She even outlined what "she" would do to her children inshaa Allah if she deemed it necessary. Very nicely said I might add Sister jazaakum Allahu Khairan.
We all know our children and what might or might not work for them in terms of discipling so what works for me may not work for you but we can turn to each other and seek advice and guidance with these matters and hopefully by the grace of Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala the matter or issue will be resolves successfully.
In Allah lies the true success!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: She quoted him as saying: There is a Hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in which he said,
"Tell your children to pray when they are seven years old and discipline (beat) them if they don't when they are ten years old."
Not sure what your point is because I stated above that and why I think disciplining children is not the right way to increase their faith.
And I'm absolutely opposed to physical punishment which is clearly suggested in the fatwa which has been quoted:
Some Muslim scholars state that the child should be physically disciplined if he does not fast by the age of 10, which is the same rule that is applied to prayer.
posted
What is the “Islamic Position” on Corporal Punishment?
I recently became aware of this editorial from the May issue of Q-News, the British Muslim magazine. Boy have I got a lot to say about it. It reads, in part:
The smacking of children is once again a hot issue. The debate - in both media and parliament, has opened up a Pandora’s box. It has raised questions about the sanctity of the family, of the role of the state and the law - and, crucially, its ability to intervene in such familial issues. And it has resurrected one of the oldest argument in the book: how do you discipline children?
This time, however, the discussion has taken on new, and more disturbing, overtones. The question being asked is not so much how children should be disciplined but whether they should be punished when they behave badly. And this against the background of escalating indiscipline in schools and ever-raising rates of crime and delinquency among the young. We are raising a generation of rebels - with or without a cause.
From the Muslim point of view - which has been conspicuous by its absence - the arguments are more clear-cut: Islam always demands the middle-path. This, at least, is the theory. In practice, our youngsters often face unacceptable levels of physical abuse in the madrassas and sometimes in their homes, and this is a syndrome in dire need of correction.
The Islamic teaching on physical punishment derives itself from the twin concepts of viewing corporal punishment as a useful corrective tool for young children for whom psychological torment would leave deeper scars. Hence, the Blessed Prophet’s, peace be upon him, exhortation to physically discipline children if they do not pray after they have reached the age of puberty - with the precept of maintaining at all times an attitude of understanding and compassion towards the young. The tricky part is in knowing where to draw the line.
Ahh, yes, the same old tired argument: That “guidance” necessarily implies punishment which necessarily implies “hitting” of some form or another. And the same old tired scare tactic that the inverse must be true, that lack of hitting necessarily means lack of guidance and discipline and therefore lack of hitting means endemic rebellion, crime, and anarchy. And I find it strange that this article seems to imply that either you hit your children or you have to psychologically “torment” them. Huh? Is that the extent of your ideas on how to raise children?
I am most aghast at the unsubstantiated blanket claim that “the Islamic teaching” and the “Muslim point of view” is that hitting children is supposedly okay, and from a magazine that claims to be supportive of “traditional Islam” at that. While some scholars may believe that hitting is acceptable, it is not a belief shared by all. Shaykh Abdullah Adhami for example has publicly stated his opinion that hitting children is haraam. Even some of the most hardcore “Salafi” teachers have said that to hit a child for anything other than not praying after the age of ten is forbidden, meaning no hitting your under-10-year-old, period.
I am so sick and tired of Muslims, some of whom are alleged to be people of knowledge and/or authority, taking narrow views of this subject based solely on one Hadeeth. The Q-News editorial makes reference to the Hadeeth in which the Prophet Salla l-laahu `alayhi wa sallam says to teach children to pray when they are seven years old and to hit them about it when they reach the age of ten. People love to interpret this Hadeeth as a blanket statement that hitting children is endorsed, even recommended by Allah and His Messenger. I have several problems with this viewpoint:
1) When translating this Hadeeth, as is common with the verse in the Qur’an, the word Daraba is almost always translated as “beat”. So this Hadeeth will frequently be rendered like this: “teach your children to pray when they are seven and beat them about it when they are ten”. This is a reprehensible and inexcusable error. In American English, to “beat” somebody implies nothing other than to hit a person repeatedly so as to cause intense injury, something which is absolutely forbidden in Islam for animals, as well for as people.
In the same way, a very popular and widely-respected book of fiqh (which I will not name for fear of being flamed by those who respect the book and the one responsible for it) makes reference to “spanking of the student” being permissible. Again we see language being misused leading to an un-Islamic conclusion. In American English “spanking” refers to hitting a child on their butt, but in Islamic adab the butt is considered part of the private parts (`awrah) and in no way should hitting a child in their private parts be considered acceptable.
2) When discussing this Hadeeth, it never is afforded the same treatment as the verse in the Qur’an that talks about what happens in the case of a husband dealing with his rebellious wife. As our scholars have made clear time and time again, the Qur’an does not say that a husband can “beat” his wife, in fact the commentary of the Prophet Salla l-laahu `alayhi wa sallam is that the maximum type of hitting a husband is allowed against his wife, after all other options have been exhausted, is with a toothbrush. So what right do we have to assume that Daraba in the case of a child means that we have the right to use our hands or large objects (like belts, sticks, kitchen utensils, etc.) to inflict as much pain as we wish?
3) This Hadeeth is being over-interpreted in the extreme as a blanket permission, when it is obviously about a specific circumstance (i.e., the prayer).
4) In the text of the Q-News Editorial as in most places this subject comes up, this particular Hadeeth is cited but not the Hadeeth of Sahih Muslim in which Aishah Radia l-laahu `anhaa clearly states that the Prophet Salla l-laahu `alayhi wa sallam never hit anyone in his house, nor even any inanimate object.
Here’s my question for those who take the “praying” Hadeeth to be indicative of the permissiveness and “usefulness” as the Q-News editorial says, of corporal punishment: If the Prophet was supposedly so convinced about the usefulness and goodness of hitting children, living in a time and a place where physical violence even in extreme measures against women and children was considered socially acceptable and even encouraged, then why didn’t he use it himself?
I believe the “permission” to hit kids is analogous to the “permission” in Islam to have more than one wife. You “can” do it if you absolutely have to, but you should avoid it because the Qur’an says that there is no way any human man can truly be fair among his wives. The Prophet showed us examples of two ways to live, having lived for years with only one wife and having lived for years with multiple wives. And herein lies an important distinction—while it is permissible to marry more than one wife in limited circumstances and the Prophet demonstrated this to us by living that way, it may be “permissible” in some people’s minds to hit children as “discipline” but the Prophet never did it.
How many of us can trust ourselves with a blanket permission to hit our children? The editorial looks with disdain on the fact that:
The tendency of current mainstream debate about corporal punishment has been to error [sic] on the side of caution, arguing that all physical corrective measures are bad news because parents may then begin to rely on violence to sustain their authority.
I have said it before and I will say it again, just as “the nafs incites to evil” in the saying of the Prophet, and just as other things are considered impermissible because of the human tendency to easily go to excess, hitting children should also be seen in the same light. Just as with alcohol, in which the Qur’an says there is “some good, but its harm is greater than its good” the same can be said for hitting children. Just as human beings are likely to go to excess with alcohol, we are likely to become angry and arrogant and take hitting children to the extreme.
No, the Prophet didn’t make it absolutely forbidden to hit your kids because can you imagine the hardship that would impose on people? Most people, even those of us who do not believe in hitting, are going to do so at least once in our lives, some more than others. We are imperfect and sometimes we are overcome by anger. For me it happened on a particularly bad day when my 2 ½ year old was pulling my skirt and screaming, somehow I instinctively reached out and slapped her hand that was pulling my clothes off.
Violence is one of those diseases of the heart and of society that takes a lot of hard work to eliminate, and we are all going to have our slip-ups no matter how opposed to violence we are. That’s just a fact. It’s why I don’t believe in laws that make hitting your child even once a crime and it’s why I believe the Prophet Salla l-laahu `alayhi wa sallam essentially didn’t do so either. You can’t legislate many matters of personal excellence and morality, you can’t punish people (especially to the extent of possibly taking away their children and putting them in foster homes).
What also amazes me is that some people think that boys require different treatment in this respect and tell me that because I only have girls right now that I simply don’t know what I’m talking about. Yes, I have been told, in so many words, that I am “not a real parent” because I don’t have any boys and that if I do ever have a boy, I will “hit him on a regular basis because that’s the only thing boys understand”. While I can appreciate the fact that boys are often more energetic and aggressive than girls, it still doesn’t mean that the appropriate or helpful response to their temperaments is hitting and further violence. Again, it helps to notice that the Prophet Salla l-laahu `alayhi wa sallam only raised girls because his sons all died in infancy. That should tell us something about what Allah SubHaanahu wa ta`aala was trying to tell us.
The editorial also says:
A few years ago, in the aftermath of the murder of Jamie Bulger, the argument was put forward that children are not in themselves capable of wrongdoing unless they have been driven to it by their familial and other circumstances. Indeed, this was a convincing argument when we began to hear how one of Jamie’s teenage killers came from a background of such abject poverty that he was forced to walk to school without shoes. But if sociological factors are brought in to explain, by hook or by crook, any aberrations in the behaviour expected of children, the moral imperatives involved in the bringing up of children are the first casualty. If a child is to be seen as the product of social forces, what would be the point of giving them any guidance on right and wrong behaviour?
Note that the editorial first says that children are formed by familial circumstances but then later claims that if children are formed by social forces then there’s nothing we can do about it. We may not have the ability to change society but when there are family circumstances we most certainly have the ability—indeed, the obligation to change them. Especially in this day and age when we have access to so much in the way of counseling, information, support, and ideas about effective parenting that do not include violence, we are obligated to seek those ideas out and apply them. Claiming that we have the right to hurt our children is not going to change the family environment and is ultimately going to have no effect on a child’s behavior.
This is just so typical of arguments in favor of corporal punishment in which parents seek to dodge any responsibility for their children’s behavior whatsoever. This view holds the parents to be godlike figures of perfection who have no responsibility to change themselves and that every problem lies with the children. They recoil in horror if any suggestion is made that a child’s misbehavior is actually due to the parents’ behavior or the family environment. Some authors have traced this very idea back to the Christian idea of the “Original Sin” and the idea that children are born stained with that “Sin” and therefore they are born inherently evil. Remember that in Islam we do not believe in the “Original Sin” being carried on into each individual and we believe that children are born, as the Prophet Salla l-laahu `alayhi wa sallam said, on the fiTrah or pure nature.
I also believe that in modern times we should avoid all physical discipline because it will cause more problems than it will solve. While it may have “worked” to use harsh discipline in the old days, (although the idea of whether or not it actually “worked” is really debatable and more likely if a person “turned out” well it was despite harsh treatment rather than because of it) it will never “work” in modern days for one simple reason: Technology.
In the days before information and travel technology people lived in their villages and rarely, if ever, met a person from outside their limited worldview let alone actually went places. The family, tribal, and cultural systems were so strong that they didn’t often intermingle—a Chinese person would not have typically picked up and gone to Africa and started living with the Africans and practicing their religion.
If a child was raised in a harsh treatment at home, there were a lot of other people in the village who would have acted as a mentors, teachers, protectors, and examples and the influence of those people would have kept the child on the right track. (Incidentally, John Taylor Gatto cites this as one of the defining characteristics of his own childhood, having grown up in a dysfunctional family but having had supportive neighbors in his hometown to influence him in the right direction.)
We don’t live in the village anymore. Our family and societal and tribal systems are all broken to pieces and most children spend most of their time in school where they learn to value the opinions of their peers and popular culture more than that of their parents. And thanks to information technology and travel a child in ANY part of the world, no matter how remote, can learn about the belief systems and life of any other culture and country in the world, take a car, bus, and plane and get there in less than 24 hours. A child in the desert of Syria today can take a plane and become a transvestite in Los Angeles if they want to, wa na`uudhu bi l-laah. No parents, village elder, tribal, cultural, or religious system can stop them. Even within Muslim countries, the cultures are changing so much that previously unheard of behavior is being promoted on television and is turning into reality in families, such as adult children, even women, leaving their families, telling their parents to “stay out of my life”, living alone and engaging in immoral behavior with no recourse against them.
That’s why it is critical that we raise children today with more creative effort and intelligence than people may have used in “the old days” or “in the home country”.
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: [qb] She quoted him as saying: There is a Hadith of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) in which he said,
"Tell your children to pray when they are seven years old and discipline (beat) them if they don't when they are ten years old."
Not sure what your point is because I stated above that and why I think disciplining children is not the right way to increase their faith.
And I'm absolutely opposed to physical punishment which is clearly suggested in the fatwa which has been quoted:
I see you are absolutely opposed the the direct command of the Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam. Fine so be it. The Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam says beat/hit and you say no you're opposed.
I guess there is absolutely nothing more to say. Especially when a Muslims feels that they don't have to listen to the advice of the one who is the best of Guidance.
Mashaa Allah to ahead sister handle your business you don't need us or the Rasul salallahu alayhi to guide or advise you.
I'm done with commenting on this subject with you..your mind is already made up. I'll step aside and let others do that!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
I see you are absolutely opposed the the direct command of the Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam. Fine so be it. The Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam says beat/hit and you say no you're opposed.
I did not receive a "direct command" from the prophet, and neither did you if I'm not mistaken.
Do you sometimes stop for a minute to actually think for yourself? In case you aren't aware of this -- there are many ayas in the Qur'an asking you to ...
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: I'm done with commenting on this subject with you
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
I see you are absolutely opposed the the direct command of the Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam. Fine so be it. The Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam says beat/hit and you say no you're opposed.
I did not receive a "direct command" from the prophet, and neither did you if I'm not mistaken.
Do you sometimes stop for a minute to actually think for yourself? In case you aren't aware of this -- there are many ayas in the Qur'an asking you to ...
Yes I believe that I am able body and educated thinking man wa Allahu ta'ala alim.
However, I, you or anyone else for that matter could walk the face of the earth and only followed the instructions i.e. ahadeeth of Rasulullah Salallahu alayhi wassalam blindly and at the end of the day when he dies he/she will be perfectly fine.
A blind man or woman could follow exactly whathe Rasulullah Salallahu alayhi wassalaam letter for letter and he/she will be sucessful..given the glad tiding of paradise..listen on and don't tell me about being free thinking. Say to them o Muhammad if you love Allah then follow the Rasul and THEN (CONDITION) Allah will love you and forgive you of ALL your sins Al Quran:
Verily, those who say: "Our Lord is Allah (Alone)," and then they stand firm, on them the angels will descend (at the time of their death) (saying); "Fear not, nor grieve! But receive the glad tidings of Paradise which you have been promised!"
"We have been your firend in the life of this world and are (so) in the Hereafter. Therein you shall have (all) that your inner-selves desire, and therein you shall have (all) for which you ask."
"An entertainmnet from (Allah), the Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful."
The good deed and the evil deed cannot be equal. Repel (the evil) with one which is better (i.e Allah orders the faithful believers to be patient at the time of anger, and to excuse those who treat them baldy) then verily he, between who and you there was enmity, (will become) as though he was a close friend.
Suratul Fussilat
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posted
Free thinking..LOL that reminds me of the story when the Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wassalaam return from night's journey to masjid al aqsr and made the journey to the heavens.
He told the Meccan people what had happened and they were mocking him and laughing. The went to Abu Bakr As-Siddiq radiallahu ta'ala anhu and said that your friend Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam claims that he went to palenstine last night and then came back (doesnt make sense right?) to the free thinker.
Abu Bakr (RA) said did he said that and is he back now? They said yes. He said if he said that then I believe him. Hence he got his name As-Siddiq.
The Quran said in suratul baqarah.."This is a Quran for those who believe in the unseen."..If you think with your distorted mind..you will get confused sometimes..depend and trust on Allah and His Subhana Messenger and you will never be confused or misguided even if you don't comprehend or understand..JUST DO IT!
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Free thinking..LOL that reminds me of the story when the Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wassalaam return from night's journey to masjid al aqsr and made the journey to the heavens.
He told the Meccan people what had happened and they were mocking him and laughing. The went to Abu Bakr As-Siddiq radiallahu ta'ala anhu and said that your friend Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam claims that he went to palenstine last night and then came back (doesnt make sense right?) to the free thinker.
What makes you think that *free thinkers* don't believe in the unseen?
And my mind is far from being distorted, thankyouverymuch. It says alot about you though, that you believe yours is and you don't trust this divine gift enough to use it in the way it's intended ... Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Free thinking..LOL that reminds me of the story when the Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wassalaam return from night's journey to masjid al aqsr and made the journey to the heavens.
He told the Meccan people what had happened and they were mocking him and laughing. The went to Abu Bakr As-Siddiq radiallahu ta'ala anhu and said that your friend Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam claims that he went to palenstine last night and then came back (doesnt make sense right?) to the free thinker.
What makes you think that *free thinkers* don't believe in the unseen?
And my mind is far from being distorted, thankyouverymuch. It says alot about you though, that you believe yours is and you don't trust this divine gift enough to use it in the way it's intended ...
See i closed my eyes when I typed this..LOL (now that was trusting myself)
Say to them o Muhammad if you love Allah then follow the Rasul and THEN (CONDITION) Allah will love you and forgive you of ALL your sins.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: If that's what you would do, then why are you posting an excerpt from a fatwa that suggests physical punishment?
I posted that excerpt, because: a) as far as I could see, the sister was asking for the Islamic guidance on the subject, and that, as far as I knew, was an authentic Hadith on the subject
b) If someone had asked me what the Egyptian law was on a specific matter, and I knew it, I would give them the information they asked for; I wouldn't only give them information that I agreed with and hide the others or give them a long argument about whether or not I agreed with the law. And I do the same, if someone ask what the Islamic ruling on a subject is.
c) Despite the fact that I gave that hypothetical example of a possible way that I might handle that situation personally, I also said "If you want to change a child's behaviour, any methods you use have to be relevant to the behaviour, and also suitable and effective for the child." And in some situations, I do agree that physical punishment is the best way to discipline some children, if it is carried out wisely and in a controlled manner.
d) To me the fact that this Hadith talks about discipling a child when they reach the age of 10 if they are not praying, indicates the importance of them praying by that age, in the same way that when the Qur'an talks about the application of physical punishment to other offences that are against the laws of Allah, it is also indicating the severity of the offence.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: If that's what you would do, then why are you posting an excerpt from a fatwa that suggests physical punishment?
I posted that excerpt, because: a) as far as I could see, the sister was asking for the Islamic guidance on the subject, and that, as far as I knew, was an authentic Hadith on the subject
b) If someone had asked me what the Egyptian law was on a specific matter, and I knew it, I would give them the information they asked for; I wouldn't only give them information that I agreed with and hide the others or give them a long argument about whether or not I agreed with the law. And I do the same, if someone ask what the Islamic ruling on a subject is.
c) Despite the fact that I gave that hypothetical example of a possible way that I might handle that situation personally, I also said "If you want to change a child's behaviour, any methods you use have to be relevant to the behaviour, and also suitable and effective for the child." And in some situations, I do agree that physical punishment is the best way to discipline some children, if it is carried out wisely and in a controlled manner.
d) To me the fact that this Hadith talks about discipling a child when they reach the age of 10 if they are not praying, indicates the importance of them praying by that age, in the same way that when the Qur'an talks about the application of physical punishment to other offences that are against the laws of Allah, it is also indicating the severity of the offence.
Jazaakum Allahu Khairan Sister well said. You will always have those who try to distract you from their agenda..Don't let them..Stay focus as you are.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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-I think Islam clearly does not say 'violence is the only way' and that you should beat them up for everything. Certainly not. At least, this doesn't show from the historical practice of earlier times (regardless of practices by Muslims that disagree with Islamic teachings)
-Islam limits the violence that is ALREADY happening everywhere around. Just that an issue is being adressed, does not mean it is being marketed wholesale. (Looking away from the problem would be like a child thinking no one sees him because he covers his face up) From what I understand it goes more like, "When you do resort to violence, it should be something like this..."
[A country like the US certainly does not advocate domestic violence of any kind(supposedly) and yet some of the statistics are, well, shocking.]
-Escalating rewards or punishments is actually very logical since all humans everywhere of any age respond to incentives or disincentives. (Notice US economic sanctions on several countries escalating to threat of war)
-The debate on how to discipline children is not exclusive to Islam. Still people around the world debate which is the best way to raise your child.
-I think it is better to leave it to each mother, she KNOWS her child best. If a mother thinks her child works better with a slap on the wrist, why not? If a mother thinks her child acts well with verbal reprimanding it's okay. I would repsect both women very much. Examples from both sides have proven successful and failure. A child (and a mother) are not part of an equation. Results vary.
posted
Corporal punishment does not work with a child. It also says these things in the bible, but the facts show otherwise. Children that are beaten into submission do not appreciate fully the lesson they are suppose to learn-they just learn to do it because if they dont they get hurt.Now in teaching them to not run out into the street that might work, but to teach them to love and appreciate something it will not. Being raised in a mixed religion home , I can say having my tail beat because I wanted to go to catholic church with my mother did not work. Having my overly religious grandmother hold my hand over a hot flame on a stove when I was 9 telling me to remember this feeling because hell is a 100,000 times hotter did not make me feel the love of GOD.It made me turn away, and everytime I remember this, I remember pain so plz remember how much you can damage a child in this manner... I gave rewards and positive reinforcement to my children when I wanted them to see something as pleasant and enjoyable-this has always worked well.I never really hit my children, I feel negative reinforcement will lead them down the wrong way in life. If I had a child that was being raised muslim, I would say that I would make it exciting for them, kids always want to be like the adults, so to make it seem mysterious wonderful thing adults get to do and maybe they will get to be like the grownups if they do it to. I would use this approach and I think it would make them much more apt to learn about Islam and enjoy it more, IMO....
Posts: 1121 | From: Too crazy to look at a freakin map to find out.. | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Rumicrazieluv: Children that are beaten into submission do not appreciate fully the lesson they are suppose to learn-they just learn to do it because if they dont they get hurt.Now in teaching them to not run out into the street that might work, but to teach them to love and appreciate something it will not.
My thoughts exactly; that's why I said before that it's counterproductive to try to force children into faith by hitting or disciplining them otherwise. That apart, I feel that hitting children for whatever reason is just terribly wrong. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Dalia*:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Free thinking..LOL that reminds me of the story when the Rasulullah salallahu alayhi wassalaam return from night's journey to masjid al aqsr and made the journey to the heavens.
He told the Meccan people what had happened and they were mocking him and laughing. The went to Abu Bakr As-Siddiq radiallahu ta'ala anhu and said that your friend Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalam claims that he went to palenstine last night and then came back (doesnt make sense right?) to the free thinker.
What makes you think that *free thinkers* don't believe in the unseen?
And my mind is far from being distorted, thankyouverymuch. It says alot about you though, that you believe yours is and you don't trust this divine gift enough to use it in the way it's intended ...
See i closed my eyes when I typed this..LOL (now that was trusting myself)
Say to them o Muhammad if you love Allah then follow the Rasul and THEN (CONDITION) Allah will love you and forgive you of ALL your sins.
Sorry I can't think of an insult stupid enough for Sand.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
However, I, you or anyone else for that matter could walk the face of the earth and only followed the instructions i.e. ahadeeth of Rasulullah Salallahu alayhi wassalam blindly and at the end of the day when he dies he/she will be perfectly fine.
A blind man or woman could follow exactly whathe Rasulullah Salallahu alayhi wassalaam letter for letter and he/she will be sucessful..given the glad tiding of paradise.
THE MORAL MATURITY OF TWO-YEAR-OLDS: THE REWARD AND PUNISHMENT MENTALITY AMONG MUSLIMS
By Pamela Taylor ---------------------------------
The other day I got an email that ran something like this: Subject: FW: Glad Tidings of Heaven for Pious Women!!
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Glad tidings of Heaven for pious women in the light of hadith
1. When a husband comes home full of worries and the wife extends warm welcome to him and consoles him; she receives the reward of half a jihaad.
2. When a husband comes home to sleep and his wife gives him food to eat (not being involved in dishonesty with regard to herself and her husband belongings), Allah Taalah gives her the thawaab of 12 years of ibaadat.
3. When the wife presses the legs of her husband without him asking her to do so, she gets the sawaab of giving charity 7 ounce of gold, and if she presses his legs after he ask her to do so, she receives the sawaab of giving 7 ounce of silver in sadaqa.
4. Every night of an expectant mother (a woman who is carrying a baby in her womb) is counted as spent in ibaadat and every day as spent in fasting.
5. A woman receives the sawaab of 70 years of namaaz and roza on giving birth to one child and the pain she suffered in every vein of her body while giving birth, for that she will receive the sawaab of one hajj.
6. A woman, who is deprived of sleep owing to her child crying at night, receives the sawaab of freeing 20 slaves. Upon the child crying at night, if the mother feeds the child (gives milk to the child) without cursing, she receives the sawaab of performing namaaz for one year.
7. A breastfeeding woman gets one good deed for each drop of milk that is fed to the child.
8. A woman who is rendered restless owing to the illness of her baby and yet kept on striving to comfort the baby, Allahtalaah forgives all her sins and gives her the sawaab of 12 years accepted in ibaadat.
My first thought was “Woo-Hoo!!! I never have to pray again or fast, or for that matter do any ibadaat because I've got credit for 6755 years of fasting and praying, several thousand hajjs, 24,000 freed slaves, several millions of good deeds, and I'm-not-telling how many tons worth of gold and silver in charity.”
Ok, I guess my attitude towards these things is pretty clear. Saying “if I do x good deed, I'll get y reward from God” is the moral equivalent of letting ourselves be bribed by God. It's like a mother saying to her child, “if you're good in the store, I'll give you a candy.” Is that how you want to teach your children to behave? NO! Because the second you refuse to give the candy, the kids think they have the right to act up. Also, if they decide they are really not in the mood for candy today, or they have enough stockpiled home under the bed so they don't need any more today, or they can always get more tomorrow, then there is no motivation. Any half-way decent mother or wife, according to this email I got, has so many good deeds to her credit, she has no need to do any more.
Of course, in case our thirst for rewards is not insatiable, we have a handy repertoire of the unthinkable punishments God will mete out if we are less than ideal in our behavior (to be sent in email, part two). This is, obviously, no better. If the punishments are not fearful enough, or if we think we can cash in some of our good deeds to cancel out some of the bad ones, or that we have enough time tomorrow to make up for today’s lapses, there goes the motivation again. Bribery isn’t a very effective tool.
Not to mention that it is essentially a selfish mode of thought, a what-can-I-get-out-of-this motive that rivals the worst CEO of Enron, Ted Turner, or Arab oil sheikh scenario, just differing in scale. Focusing on the rewards of each and every good thing we do (or the punishments that we will incur if we do something less than ideal) teaches us to be self-centered, to focus on our own profit, and not to view the intrinsic value of the good deed. It is relating to the world at the moral level of a two-year-old.
Not only does this “if you do x good deed you will get x reward” mentality represent a morally immature point of view, but it also threatens to destroy our relationships; in the case of this email, the mother/child relationship or the wife/husband relationship. In light of this email, your child is no longer a delightful gift from God, a treasure and a trust and a miracle, who you care for because you love him or her more than you love your own self; your husband isn’t your life partner, friend, confidante, helpmate, but rather a commodity, a means by which you can make your pile of candy grow. What a horrible thing to do to the most beautiful, the most intimate of relationships! This is not only moral immaturity, but positive harm! How can we raise healthy, moral children is we feed them this moral pap and if we treat them like paths to our own spiritual fulfillment?
The sad part is that some Muslims (Most Muslims? Please say it's not true) seem to take these email sheets very, very, very literally. How often have we heard a young mother telling about her oft-interrupted night with her newborn son or daughter saying very smugly how "I got up three times last night and never once got angry at my baby, so it's like I made three hajjs”?
That is so morally bankrupt, so ethically immature, it is small wonder that Muslims are in the state we are in. We should try to do what is right because it is the right thing to do, whether or not we receive rewards for it. We should try to teach our children to do what is right because it is right, because it serves the greater good of humankind in general, of the community, the family. Because doing right, makes us feel good. Because we should do for others what we would like for others to do for us. And, not only that, but it also pleases our Creator.
No wonder the ummah is in the state it is in! We keep ourselves morally at the age of two-year-olds and destroy relationships between one another with legalism, literalism, and self-centeredness. And we wonder why our rulers are so bad? We wonder why we can't get ahead? We wonder why the world doesn’t look to Islam for guidance. It should be obvious.
posted
Personally I have never seen any evidence for all those calculations above. From the terminology used in the message it was written by someone from the Indian Subcontinent, and many people there are influenced by Sufi ideas, which are often expressed in this way, i.e. getting certain rewards for doing certain actions that has no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah. There are a few mentions of this in the Sunnah, but it is very limited and is generally thought to be used as an indication of the value of an act in Allah's eyes rather than a specific tally sheet.
However, what annoyed me most about the article was the generalization that because some people from the 1.5 billion Muslim population think this way and that some of them do take emails like this seriously, that the whole Muslim population believes the same and is "so morally bankrupt, so ethically immature".
Considering that there are 1.5 adherents to Islam, it can hardly be expected that they will all be on the same high moral and ethical high plane, and the religion takes account of this. Some do good instinctively through an innate feeling that something is good to do, others have a closer relationship with Allah and do good purely through knowing that it will please Him, others need encouragement most of the time through the thought of rewards, and for others the thought of an extra reward from Allah can be the inspiration they need to get them through a rough time until they can move back to a higher plane of functioning.
I see this as another example of how Islam copes with the differences in human nature and accepts that we are not all the same/equal in all aspects of life.
Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Personally I have never seen any evidence for all those calculations above. From the terminology used in the message it was written by someone from the Indian Subcontinent, and many people there are influenced by Sufi ideas, which are often expressed in this way, i.e. getting certain rewards for doing certain actions that has no basis in the Qur'an or Sunnah.
I don't know about India or Sufis, but the reason I posted this text is that I myself have often observed a particular reward and punishment mentality among Muslims, particularly converts. If I remember correctly we even had a conversation about this subject on here some time ago.
I also remember getting attacked and lectured when posting this poem which addresses exactly that point (and which I love, btw):
O God, if I worship You for fear of Hell, burn me in Hell, And if I worship You in hope of Paradise, Exclude me from Paradise. But if I worship You for Your Own sake, Grudge me not Your everlasting Beauty.
(Rabia al-Adawiyya)
Of course the examples cited in that mail are a bit extreme, but the point remains the same -- if I do a good deed I get points for paradise, if I sin I get punished. I observe this mentality all the time, in real life, but even more so in religious discussions, even on this board. And many, many fatwas and religious texts are full of this!
Btw, just an example out of many ... a friend of mine was invited to a Muslim women's gathering last Ramadan. She came back completely shocked for several reasons, one was that everyone kept talking about earning points and getting rewards, and they had even set up lists where they could fill in how many *points* they got for what each day.
They were all Americans, btw, and certainly no sufis.
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Considering that there are 1.5 adherents to Islam, it can hardly be expected that they will all be on the same high moral and ethical high plane, and the religion takes account of this. Some do good instinctively through an innate feeling that something is good to do, others have a closer relationship with Allah and do good purely through knowing that it will please Him, others need encouragement most of the time through the thought of rewards, and for others the thought of an extra reward from Allah can be the inspiration they need to get them through a rough time until they can move back to a higher plane of functioning.
I understand the point, yes, it might be better that people do good deeds out of whatever motivation than not doing good deeds at all. But to me practicing a faith and doing good things etc. is all about an inner process, about striving to become a better person, to develop spiritually and morally and all that. I feel sticking to that reward or punishment mentality eventually keeps people from developing more.
Also, I understand punishment in religious terms rather as something you do to yourself, so to speak, for me hell and heaven are metaphors ... but that's a different subject altogether and not really suitable for this board.
Something completely different in regards to this subject ... I'm not that great with sirah and ahadeeth and stuff, but to my knowledge the prophet never, ever hit anyone, be it a woman, a child or even an animal. So wouldn't it be really strange that he should command people to hit their children? Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
No it's not strange. The Prophet was sent as a Mercy for ALL of mankind and he did hit Ayesha (may Allah be pleased with her) with his sewak or miswak.
Here is what I find strange. Why do you care what Muslims believe? You are only here to try to point out discrepencies (or what you think are discrepencies) within Islaam.
You are not asking questions to obtain a general understanding of the tenants of Islaam. You are posting for other reasons.
When given answers to your questions from Muslims from authentic sources you negate them, mock them and slander them. You aren't even a Muslims and you talk bad about our scholars.
You have your own motives and it is clear that you aren't trying to understand Islaam. You don't care about when a Muslim child should fast, and when, why and how they should be discipline if they aren't fasting or praying.
The good thing about you is that you are clear. We can see your game even at a far distance.
You are posting fake ahadeeth and not even verifying the source (and this is not the 1st time you have done so).
You should keep your post non-religious in nature (at least nothing to due with Islaam). It will be better for Muslims and you.
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: You are posting fake ahadeeth and not even verifying the source (and this is not the 1st time you have done so).
Interesting. As far as I know, I haven't posted any ahadeeth, let alone faked ones. Maybe you can post a link to where I did that.
Regarding the rest of your post -- thanks for your advice and concern. But you're not the first one on here trying to intimidate and insult me in order to make me shut up, and you probably won't be the last one. I don't care. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Dalia*: I don't know about India or Sufis, but the reason I posted this text is that I myself have often observed a particular reward and punishment mentality among Muslims, particularly converts.
I understand the point, yes, it might be better that people do good deeds out of whatever motivation than not doing good deeds at all. But to me practicing a faith and doing good things etc. is all about an inner process, about striving to become a better person, to develop spiritually and morally and all that. I feel sticking to that reward or punishment mentality eventually keeps people from developing more.
Something completely different in regards to this subject ... I'm not that great with sirah and ahadeeth and stuff, but to my knowledge the prophet never, ever hit anyone, be it a woman, a child or even an animal. So wouldn't it be really strange that he should command people to hit their children?
I didn't deny that there was a basis for reward...you cut that part out of your quote...I was just saying that I didn't know of any texts that could be used for those particular examples that were given in the article.
There are also many Muslims, born and converts, who also think that Islam is all about spirituality and that it's what you feel in your heart that is important without the need for external actions and behaviour to support it. And there are other Muslims, born and converts, who are at the other extreme of the continuum, who feel that it's all about obeying the rules even if you feel no spiritual connection. To my understanding, it's a balance; it's not just one or the other. It's a balance between following the guidelines that Allah gave us for living on this planet in the best way we can that pleases Him and also about developing a closer relationship with Him; the two are intimately intertwined and can't be successful without the other.
Wherever you go in the Muslim world you will come across a variety of interpretations of what Islam is, and they will generally be somewhere along that continuum; and you can point out examples of good people and bad people in any part of it, and thinking and non-thinking people, but to generalise any of them to the whole Muslim world doesn't make sense.
As the word that is being referred to from the Hadith is one that was used by Allah Himself in the Qur'an, then no I don't think it strange for the Prophet (peace be upon him) to have used it. Yes, from the Sunnah, reported in the Hadith, we learn that the Prophet never hit anyone himself, gave guideline that no one was ever to be hit in the face, that nothing harder than a miswak should be used if it was ever done, and he even spoke negatively about those who did so. So if we combine the Hadith about praying with all that knowledge, then we know that he wasn't condoning beating kids black and blue and without restraint Posts: 4576 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: You are posting fake ahadeeth and not even verifying the source (and this is not the 1st time you have done so).
Interesting. As far as I know, I haven't posted any ahadeeth, let alone faked ones. Maybe you can post a link to where I did that.
Regarding the rest of your post -- thanks for your advice and concern. But you're not the first one on here trying to intimidate and insult me in order to make me shut up, and you probably won't be the last one. I don't care.
Here are the fake ahadeeth below. See you copy and paste and you don't know what you are doing:
In the Name of Allah, Most Gracious, Most Merciful Glad tidings of Heaven for pious women in the light of hadith
1. When a husband comes home full of worries and the wife extends warm welcome to him and consoles him; she receives the reward of half a jihaad.
2. When a husband comes home to sleep and his wife gives him food to eat (not being involved in dishonesty with regard to herself and her husband belongings), Allah Taalah gives her the thawaab of 12 years of ibaadat.
3. When the wife presses the legs of her husband without him asking her to do so, she gets the sawaab of giving charity 7 ounce of gold, and if she presses his legs after he ask her to do so, she receives the sawaab of giving 7 ounce of silver in sadaqa.
4. Every night of an expectant mother (a woman who is carrying a baby in her womb) is counted as spent in ibaadat and every day as spent in fasting.
5. A woman receives the sawaab of 70 years of namaaz and roza on giving birth to one child and the pain she suffered in every vein of her body while giving birth, for that she will receive the sawaab of one hajj.
6. A woman, who is deprived of sleep owing to her child crying at night, receives the sawaab of freeing 20 slaves. Upon the child crying at night, if the mother feeds the child (gives milk to the child) without cursing, she receives the sawaab of performing namaaz for one year.
7. A breastfeeding woman gets one good deed for each drop of milk that is fed to the child.
8. A woman who is rendered restless owing to the illness of her baby and yet kept on striving to comfort the baby, Allahtalaah forgives all her sins and gives her the sawaab of 12 years accepted in ibaadat.
Oh trust me I'm not TRYING to intimidate. If I wanted to do that I would use a different method. What I am doing is EXPOSING you. I'm sure I'm not the first one and yes, I hope I won't be the last one either.
You keep on posting garbage about Islaam and I will (God Willing) keep on refuting you and it. Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Here are the fake ahadeeth below.
I don't see a single hadith quoted there.
But keep on trying, all you're exposing is your limited intelligence and incapability to comprehend written texts. Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Here are the fake ahadeeth below.
I don't see a single hadith quoted there.
But keep on trying, all you're exposing is your limited intelligence and incapability to comprehend written texts.
As we say in Islaam. "Fear Allah". It really doesn't matter you will continued to be exposed.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: No it's not strange. The Prophet was sent as a Mercy for ALL of mankind and he did hit Ayesha (may Allah be pleased with her) with his sewak or miswak.
Here is what I find strange. Why do you care what Muslims believe? You are only here to try to point out discrepencies (or what you think are discrepencies) within Islaam.
You are not asking questions to obtain a general understanding of the tenants of Islaam. You are posting for other reasons.
When given answers to your questions from Muslims from authentic sources you negate them, mock them and slander them. You aren't even a Muslims and you talk bad about our scholars.
You have your own motives and it is clear that you aren't trying to understand Islaam. You don't care about when a Muslim child should fast, and when, why and how they should be discipline if they aren't fasting or praying.
The good thing about you is that you are clear. We can see your game even at a far distance.
You are posting fake ahadeeth and not even verifying the source (and this is not the 1st time you have done so).
You should keep your post non-religious in nature (at least nothing to due with Islaam). It will be better for Muslims and you.
Actually it is the opposite - you and the misguided interpretations of what you claim are true Islamic tenants are what is being exposed so beautifully by Dalia.
Dalia presents her arguments to demonstrate Islam as a religon of mercy, peace and tolerance and often uses Quranic verses as proof of her argument. That she points out the discrepancies between the Quran and how many, many Muslims choose to interpret and practice their faith IS the point.
Posts: 407 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: No it's not strange. The Prophet was sent as a Mercy for ALL of mankind and he did hit Ayesha (may Allah be pleased with her) with his sewak or miswak.
Here is what I find strange. Why do you care what Muslims believe? You are only here to try to point out discrepencies (or what you think are discrepencies) within Islaam.
You are not asking questions to obtain a general understanding of the tenants of Islaam. You are posting for other reasons.
When given answers to your questions from Muslims from authentic sources you negate them, mock them and slander them. You aren't even a Muslims and you talk bad about our scholars.
You have your own motives and it is clear that you aren't trying to understand Islaam. You don't care about when a Muslim child should fast, and when, why and how they should be discipline if they aren't fasting or praying.
The good thing about you is that you are clear. We can see your game even at a far distance.
You are posting fake ahadeeth and not even verifying the source (and this is not the 1st time you have done so).
You should keep your post non-religious in nature (at least nothing to due with Islaam). It will be better for Muslims and you.
Actually it is the opposite - you and the misguided interpretations of what you claim are true Islamic tenants are what is being exposed so beautifully by Dalia.
Dalia presents her arguments to demonstrate Islam as a religon of mercy, peace and tolerance and often uses Quranic verses as proof of her argument. That she points out the discrepancies between the Quran and how many, many Muslims choose to interpret and practice their faith IS the point.
You both are non-Muslims and don't know Islaam.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
There is nothing merciful about cutting off the hands – Nor is there anything merciful about promises of eternal hell and damnation for those who don’t pray regularly or pay zakat.
There is nothing merciful about direct statements describing MOST people as unbelievers and in which case eternal hell is their fate. Yes there is mercy but there is also a whole lot of warnings and damnation.
Focusing on simply one aspect is certainly subjective. The Quran is very merciful but there is also wrath in it. Allah (swt) statements in the Quran vary from very soothing verses but some come down hard like a hammer of wrath. Some verses Allah (swt) promises eternal damnation and Allah (swt) even goes on to say that he (swt) does not go back on his word – meaning eternal damnation is eternal damnation.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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posted
Yeah i thought so. My intellectual prowess continues to shut people up.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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As far as I know, I haven't posted any ahadeeth, let alone faked ones. Maybe you can post a link to where I did that. 
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