posted
Let me have a guess..... because men driving us women insane? Posts: 30135 | From: The owner of this website killed ES....... | Registered: Feb 2004
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I like the name, 'AntiHypocrisy' but forgive me, I don't usually click on ES links. Perhaps you may like to ponder on why women then outlive men in so many cultures?
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Recently, much debate in the UK has revolved around resolving performance gaps in education as boys are not doing as well as girls.
Same thing in Germany.
Same thing in the US (especially higher level math). Or high level physics classes, have you ever seen the women/men ratio?
Please could you post the details? It's interesting to observe and compare global patterns.
Although I don't have definite statistics to back up my claim, I attended a university in a Muslim country, in fact it was recognized as the best university in that country, and the majority of the students who had met the grades for admission were women and on top of that they eclipsed the male students in most of the faculties, especially the Islamic studies department.
Sadly the system took over after that and many of the women decided not to work or get married and stay at home to raise children, so it meant that men then gained the advantage in the workforce for the prime positions. It did however mean that the children were raised by intelligent, educated women.
Newcomer's comments add weight to the picture emerging on ES. From New York to London to Germany to Cairo, girls and young women are performing better than boys or young men in their studies. What women do after completing degrees and the options offered by different cultures, would be a good subject for another thread. A good education is never a waste and children benefit from having a well educated mother.
My apologies I meant that girls are NOT doing as well in higher level math and science especially in the US. They are NOT outperforming, at least in the US on the more technical sciences. I meant that in most classes at least in the US with high level math/physics/engineering courses the ratio is completely skewed with more males. The stats that support that women are doing better than men is with women athletes, they tend to finish college (versus male athletes who usually don't). It is quite different in other countries, where girls do flourish and the proportion is more equal in higher level math, physics, and engineering education. And I'm sure this is not due to any lack of ability, just priorities and perspective on some fields. I agree with what newcomer says, that holds true in Egypt--with women in medical education and in engineering education(the proportion is pretty good-- I was surprised myself). What they decide to do with it is their decision, though I do find that there is cross cultural phenomenon to ditch the career.
Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Huh? You didn't say that boys and girls develop differently - that would be stating the obvious. You said girls mature faster , specifically in relation to brain development arguments. This is why I questioned your original post.
Develop, mature... They mean the same thing in my eyes when used in this context.. The issue at hand is that they do not develop/mature along the same path.
Girls mature faster than boys, physically and mentally for the most part.
quote:This is why I asked you to explain the stages of different brain maturing stages between children, using five and six year olds as starting points. You couldn't. You threw up an article that didn't show that girl's brains mature faster.
What is your concern with 5 and 6 year olds? Do you honestly think that if, as my articles suggest, girls have a 2 or 3 year head start in brain development at the onset of puberty, that it would be any different at the age of 5 or 6?
The lead in brain maturation for girls starts from birth (with some exceptions that I've already noted), and doesn't end until late adolescence or early adulthood, as that is when boys finally catch up.
quote:Worse, you often present your opinion as fact.
Believe what you believe.. It seems you need to learn the difference between evidence and proof SWYS..
My opinion is backed by overwhelming evidence, but it is not a fact, meaning that it cannot as of yet be PROVEN using Scientific methods.
This doesn't mean that its not true however..
quote:Having failed to gain any ground you make stuff up.
I dare you to state what I've made up! I haven't made anything up!
quote:Far from gloating, I'm concerned about the different educational progress between genders and would like to see these issues addressed. I am as concerned about equal opportunities for boys as I am for girls.
Yeah sure.. Which is why you practically went out of your way to criticize a Scientist whom you are not even familiar with, simply because you didn't like what her work was saying.
You are so transparent, you may aswell be made of glass.
It's not even that this issue is so controversial.
People have known for thousands of years that girls mature faster than boys....especially physically speaking.
The only difference now is, that we now know in explicit detail the maturation process in the sexes; in particular brain development.
quote:You don't even understand basic gender equality issues. There is an inherent sexism in so many of your arguments but you don't even see it.
Haven't we already debated gender equality ad nauseum? You think I'm sexist, and I think you are a delusional feminist who is sorely out of touch with reality.
The last time we debated this issue, you never answered any of my relevant questions even. Instead, you spent pages attacking ME, while dodging the issues at hand.
When people resort to ad hominem, it typically means they has lost the debate, and are trying to save face.
Would you like me to re-state the most relevant question which you could not answer?
quote:I suggest you donate your head to science, in the hope of discovering why such a small brain was given such a disproportionally huge casing.
Actually, brain size has nothing to do with intelligence SWYS..
Unless, you're saying that women are not as smart as men, seeing as their brains are considerably smaller, even when you account for the difference in body size.
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Huh? You didn't say that boys and girls develop differently - that would be stating the obvious. You said girls mature faster , specifically in relation to brain development arguments. This is why I questioned your original post.
Develop, mature... They mean the same thing in my eyes when used in this context.. The issue at hand is that they do not develop/mature along the same path.
Girls mature faster than boys, physically and mentally for the most part.
quote:This is why I asked you to explain the stages of different brain maturing stages between children, using five and six year olds as starting points. You couldn't. You threw up an article that didn't show that girl's brains mature faster.
What is your concern with 5 and 6 year olds? Do you honestly think that if, as my articles suggest, girls have a 2 or 3 year head start in brain development at the onset of puberty, that it would be any different at the age of 5 or 6?
The lead in brain maturation for girls starts from birth (with some exceptions that I've already noted), and doesn't end until late adolescence or early adulthood, as that is when boys finally catch up.
quote:Worse, you often present your opinion as fact.
Believe what you believe.. It seems you need to learn the difference between evidence and proof SWYS..
My opinion is backed by overwhelming evidence, but it is not a fact, meaning that it cannot as of yet be PROVEN using Scientific methods.
This doesn't mean that its not true however..
quote:Having failed to gain any ground you make stuff up.
I dare you to state what I've made up! I haven't made anything up!
quote:Far from gloating, I'm concerned about the different educational progress between genders and would like to see these issues addressed. I am as concerned about equal opportunities for boys as I am for girls.
Yeah sure.. Which is why you practically went out of your way to criticize a Scientist whom you are not even familiar with, simply because you didn't like what her work was saying.
You are so transparent, you may aswell be made of glass.
It's not even that this issue is so controversial.
People have known for thousands of years that girls mature faster than boys....especially physically speaking.
The only difference now is, that we now know in explicit detail the maturation process in the sexes; in particular brain development.
quote:You don't even understand basic gender equality issues. There is an inherent sexism in so many of your arguments but you don't even see it.
Haven't we already debated gender equality ad nauseum? You think I'm sexist, and I think you are a delusional feminist who is sorely out of touch with reality.
The last time we debated this issue, you never answered any of my relevant questions even. Instead, you spent pages attacking ME, while dodging the issues at hand.
When people resort to ad hominem, it typically means they has lost the debate, and are trying to save face.
Would you like me to re-state the most relevant question which you could not answer?
quote:I suggest you donate your head to science, in the hope of discovering why such a small brain was given such a disproportionally huge casing.
Actually, brain size has nothing to do with intelligence SWYS..
Unless, you're saying that women are not as smart as men, seeing as their brains are considerably smaller, even when you account for the difference in body size.
~Alistair
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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The physiological diseases such as lupus and autoimmune diseases are a different issue (men have their own physiological diseases and disorders)...
As for the psychological disorders like depression and eating disorders, do you know why such disorders are more common in Western societies than in non-Western societies, especially in those societies where women have freedoms and privileges that those in the West or other so-called developed countries with more male-dominated traditions??
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by primak: "Woman is weak by nature..." Are people allowed to say such crap in the US? I wouldn't think they would be in Europe.
Of course, it's called freedom of speech, and it is a right that many peoples from other nations wish they had.
Now. Islam which was a religion founded by Arabs not surprisingly carries strong patrilinear doctrines i.e. descent is not only traced through the man but also religion.
This is another factor that differs from Judaeo-Christianity in which the mother has influence over the religion of the children. Hence in Judaism, the children inherit the Jewish sect of the mother and in Christianity the children are baptized in the denomination of the mother.
In Islam, everything is controlled by the man and it is this belief and fear among many Muslim men-- that a Muslim woman will have no control over religious affairs of her child or even herself-- that is the basis of this problem.
Let it be known that I personally know several Muslim women who have not only married non-Muslim men, but successfully converted them all to Islam!!
Some "weak" women!
Posts: 26246 | From: Atlanta, Georgia, USA | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Huh? You didn't say that boys and girls develop differently - that would be stating the obvious. You said girls mature faster , specifically in relation to brain development arguments. This is why I questioned your original post.
Develop, mature... They mean the same thing in my eyes when used in this context.. The issue at hand is that they do not develop/mature along the same path.
Girls mature faster than boys, physically and mentally for the most part.
quote:This is why I asked you to explain the stages of different brain maturing stages between children, using five and six year olds as starting points. You couldn't. You threw up an article that didn't show that girl's brains mature faster.
What is your concern with 5 and 6 year olds? Do you honestly think that if, as my articles suggest, girls have a 2 or 3 year head start in brain development at the onset of puberty, that it would be any different at the age of 5 or 6?
The lead in brain maturation for girls starts from birth (with some exceptions that I've already noted), and doesn't end until late adolescence or early adulthood, as that is when boys finally catch up.
quote:Worse, you often present your opinion as fact.
Believe what you believe.. It seems you need to learn the difference between evidence and proof SWYS..
My opinion is backed by overwhelming evidence, but it is not a fact, meaning that it cannot as of yet be PROVEN using Scientific methods.
This doesn't mean that its not true however..
quote:Having failed to gain any ground you make stuff up.
I dare you to state what I've made up! I haven't made anything up!
quote:Far from gloating, I'm concerned about the different educational progress between genders and would like to see these issues addressed. I am as concerned about equal opportunities for boys as I am for girls.
Yeah sure.. Which is why you practically went out of your way to criticize a Scientist whom you are not even familiar with, simply because you didn't like what her work was saying.
You are so transparent, you may aswell be made of glass.
It's not even that this issue is so controversial.
People have known for thousands of years that girls mature faster than boys....especially physically speaking.
The only difference now is, that we now know in explicit detail the maturation process in the sexes; in particular brain development.
quote:You don't even understand basic gender equality issues. There is an inherent sexism in so many of your arguments but you don't even see it.
Haven't we already debated gender equality ad nauseum? You think I'm sexist, and I think you are a delusional feminist who is sorely out of touch with reality.
The last time we debated this issue, you never answered any of my relevant questions even. Instead, you spent pages attacking ME, while dodging the issues at hand.
When people resort to ad hominem, it typically means they has lost the debate, and are trying to save face.
Would you like me to re-state the most relevant question which you could not answer?
quote:I suggest you donate your head to science, in the hope of discovering why such a small brain was given such a disproportionally huge casing.
Actually, brain size has nothing to do with intelligence SWYS..
Unless, you're saying that women are not as smart as men, seeing as their brains are considerably smaller, even when you account for the difference in body size.
~Alistair
You fell to debate with SWYS, which is the worst debate you can ever get, regardless of what you say you are sexiest and you have favor men over women .. regardless of what you are saying .. she is right and you are wrong .. that's the way it works in her brain .. I mean no offense but SWYS your just not listening .. except if someone would tell you that women is the finest creatures in the whole universe otherwise he is a totally the most sexiest creature in the world .. just to note that I think women is OK .. and I don't say that men are better than women nor did I say that women are better than men both are humans and both statistically have cons and bros and in fact individually it will never be the gender that will affect my judgements upon a human.
Posts: 1022 | From: cairo | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Oooh ... Bibo's favourite subject ... men and women are different.
quote:Originally posted by bibo1978:
there is an obvious physical differences between the two genders, this differences actually is there
women are not men, niether is men women
for sure if men is equal to women in all aspects, physically mentally .. etc still they are not equal
My bottom line is that she is not he.
what I am afraid of is women thinking that they are men or vice verse because they are not.
they should acknowledge 'why they are women or men", they should know why they are at some gender
All people have to acknowledge why they are women or men according to what they are
Just to note that there is a difference between male and female brains, and I mean physical difference
as I have said we are not equal we are different and this difference should be for a reason,
PEOPLE out there try not to mess up the solution stating the WOMEN === MEN
without difining a role in men-women relationship then it is hard for women to held up the other role which is important for all human beings and sometimes it can be important for some women, which is a natural role "breeding".
posted
Thanks for the laughs, Dalia...I had forgotten how funny Bibo's views on women are! Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Huh? You didn't say that boys and girls develop differently - that would be stating the obvious. You said girls mature faster , specifically in relation to brain development arguments. This is why I questioned your original post.
Develop, mature... They mean the same thing in my eyes when used in this context.. The issue at hand is that they do not develop/mature along the same path.
Girls mature faster than boys, physically and mentally for the most part.
quote:This is why I asked you to explain the stages of different brain maturing stages between children, using five and six year olds as starting points. You couldn't. You threw up an article that didn't show that girl's brains mature faster.
What is your concern with 5 and 6 year olds? Do you honestly think that if, as my articles suggest, girls have a 2 or 3 year head start in brain development at the onset of puberty, that it would be any different at the age of 5 or 6?
The lead in brain maturation for girls starts from birth (with some exceptions that I've already noted), and doesn't end until late adolescence or early adulthood, as that is when boys finally catch up.
quote:Worse, you often present your opinion as fact.
Believe what you believe.. It seems you need to learn the difference between evidence and proof SWYS..
My opinion is backed by overwhelming evidence, but it is not a fact, meaning that it cannot as of yet be PROVEN using Scientific methods.
This doesn't mean that its not true however..
quote:Having failed to gain any ground you make stuff up.
I dare you to state what I've made up! I haven't made anything up!
quote:Far from gloating, I'm concerned about the different educational progress between genders and would like to see these issues addressed. I am as concerned about equal opportunities for boys as I am for girls.
Yeah sure.. Which is why you practically went out of your way to criticize a Scientist whom you are not even familiar with, simply because you didn't like what her work was saying.
You are so transparent, you may aswell be made of glass.
It's not even that this issue is so controversial.
People have known for thousands of years that girls mature faster than boys....especially physically speaking.
The only difference now is, that we now know in explicit detail the maturation process in the sexes; in particular brain development.
quote:You don't even understand basic gender equality issues. There is an inherent sexism in so many of your arguments but you don't even see it.
Haven't we already debated gender equality ad nauseum? You think I'm sexist, and I think you are a delusional feminist who is sorely out of touch with reality.
The last time we debated this issue, you never answered any of my relevant questions even. Instead, you spent pages attacking ME, while dodging the issues at hand.
When people resort to ad hominem, it typically means they has lost the debate, and are trying to save face.
Would you like me to re-state the most relevant question which you could not answer?
quote:I suggest you donate your head to science, in the hope of discovering why such a small brain was given such a disproportionally huge casing.
Actually, brain size has nothing to do with intelligence SWYS..
Unless, you're saying that women are not as smart as men, seeing as their brains are considerably smaller, even when you account for the difference in body size.
~Alistair
Alistair, on gender issues, I've deconstructed the maze of misinformation you present as fact too many times to count. You have failed to produce a single winning argument in any previous debates on this issue. I would have remembered if you had. Feel free to link any threads where I haven't done this, if you feel hard done by (new thread, please). Although sometimes hysterically funny, I find your views on gender equality to be laced with all kinds of personal issues. Why you are sexist, I don't know - but you absolutely are.
Like many women, I've never been entirely convinced about the term feminist . It's telling that the Prince of Nothing chooses to use it as an insult. Sexist men have been hurling this label at women who refuse to buy into their distorted thinking for a long time:
"Feminism - I myself have never known what feminism is. I only know that people call me a feminist whenever I express sentiments that differentiate me from a doormat." -Rebecca West, 1913
I care about the rights of both men and women . If that makes me a feminist then lots of men must be feminists too. Both sexes should be able to live their lives to the full and participate at all levels of society, according to their abilities and desires. If you have a problem with that - tough. The world will march on without you.
Your arguments contain assumptions, contradictions and discredited research. You make up nonsense about me believing women are smarter than men and having a feminist agenda. You assumed I hadn't read the book which you based your initial argument on. The reality is that you are the one who is hung up on proving that equality of opportunity is unachievable as men and women are biologically different.
I can only conclude that you live in an Amish community because the world I live in has women making huge strides forward in terms of achieving equality with men, in all sectors of society. I don't consider men to be less capable just because they are biologically different. I've already made my views perfectly clear on the relatively few jobs that require certain levels of strength. Most jobs require brainpower and try as you might, you haven't proven that the male or female brain is less able than the other. We all know men and women are physically different - yet you continue to state this like it was some kind of reason to exclude women from areas they are absolutely capable of accessing. The debate is still ongoing regards nature versus nurture or sociological impact.
Take comfort that Bibo and 'Sand On The Brain' endorse some of your prehistoric views. Between the three of you, it would be a challenge to find enough material to construct a single brain cell. You are all blind to the reality that women all over the world are doing the exact same work as men, studying alongside men and performing as well as men in their chosen arenas. Your opinions on gender equality are just that - your opinions. Why you are so scared of gender equality is another debate. Let's get back on topic with this one now.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
Apparently woman should suppress any ability to excel so as not to bruise the delicate male ego. Also, woman should fully cover themselves because of the weakness of the male to control his sexual urges.
In other words woman should dummy up and cover up because the man is so weak. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
^OG... ''Apparently woman should suppress any ability to excel so as not to bruise the delicate male ego..''
OG, sad but still true. I fear that your words above explain what is wrong with some men. They are so insecure that they have to try and suppress, catagorise or control women to carve out a 'leadership' role for themselves.
Most men that I know are not like this, I'm happy to report. They are secure enough in their masculinity to accept women just as they are. Sexist men are the weakest of all. The difference between genders is beautiful, natural and worth celebrating. The similarities also have to be recognised fully, if we want a world where men and women feel respected. We have a long way to go.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
This is why I don't like arguing with people that don't quote statement for statement..
They eventually lose track of the debate, and end up just rambling about a bunch of crap that has nothing to do with anything.
She quotes my entire post, accuses me of making things up, assuming things, using discredited research and contradicting myself, yet she NEVER EVER gives specific examples of these infractions, despite the fact that I've asked her to!
I CHALLENGE YOU SWYS, TO PROVIDE SPECIFIC EXAMPLES OF THESE ALLEGED INFRACTIONS!
But ofcourse, you'll just ignore this challenge, like you did my two other challenges, because you don't have the balls; or ovaries in your case to admit you're wrong
Do you even read the posts? I doubt it, but since your ability to read and comprehend English is questionable, perhaps I shouldn't be so hard on you.
She hasn't even provided one single piece of evidence to support her views concerning brain maturation in females and males, and she has the nerve to attack my arguement.
Where are your links supporting your views?
Why don't you be a woman SWYS, and provide decent retorts, that actually attack my points rather than a silly long winded tirade that addresses nothing.
I've come to find that this is the game you play.
Bog them down with useless and irrelevant B.S, and hope they don't notice that you really have nothing worth saying..
~Alistair
-------------------- Lies fade like smoke when uncovered..but Truth, burns like fire. Posts: 1221 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote: It isn't a new relationship concept to say that men and women relate differently. The Bible is the first book I remember reading, which identified these differences, stating that the man was the head of the wife and the wife should respect her husband. Because of the misapplication of these verses, many women are afraid of giving any man that kind of power. During the 1990's, two books in particular dared to tell women that it was not only safe, but powerful, to be woman. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, by Johj Gray, and Getting To I Do, by Dr. Patricia Allen, both showed millions of women and men that each sex has a different and important way of relating, which contributes to a meaningful and intimate relationship. If I had to pick between the two, I would select Dr. Allen's book, because it allows for the fact that not all women want to be feminine. In Getting To I Do, Dr. Allen describes the relationship between a man and a woman as having a different energy, and how a woman's response to a man will either foster closeness or repel him like a toxic smell. Both of these books contributed to the concept of the man being the Head and the Woman responding as the Heart, but I want to acknowledge that Getting To I Do has been the most helpful book I have recommended to my female clients over the years. Sometimes I meet with wives who complain that their husbands want to rule over them. Conversely, I know husbands who gripe about how disrespectful their wives are. Behind these complaints is the premise that both partners are equal. In the current age of women's liberation, this can be an extremely valid point.
The problem with this point is that I have noticed that being equal is overvalued when applied to relationships. Equal implies that each person in the relationship is supposed to have the same amount of power and influence. The reality is that men and women have different strengths that are meant to complement each other. Some areas, such as nurturing, are generally more predominant in women, while other is easier for a man. In that sense, two adults are equal in their ability, even though those abilities are different.
Yet, many times, each partner in a relationship tends to confuse equal with familiar. They want to treat the other partner in a way that is familiar to him or her. It gives the impression that they are both the same person. If a woman demand tons of respect, it becomes very hard for her husband or boyfriend to cherish her. If the boyfriend or husband constantly wants his feelings taken care of, it will be hard for his girlfriend or wife to respect him.
In relationships, complements - not equals - work well together. In complementary couples, each individual brings a unique set of characteristics into the partnership with the other person, who through his or her own unique characteristics helps form a bond, producing a relationship that is mutually fulfilling. A women should want to be her man's complement, not his equal. A man should want to be his wife's complement, not her equal. However, when women and men want to be equal I tell them that by vying for that spot, they are actually competing with their partner. If your husband or boyfriend thinks of you as his equal, he will treat you like a man. He will be respectful, but he probably won't be affectionate. He will be courteous, but he will be hesitant to play with you, because men have a build-in need to take care of women. If a woman presents herself in such a way that she does not need a man, men will often pick up on this attitude and respond by treating her like one of the boys.
Now, this is where my advice begins to get a little sticky. Women, I am going to ask that you allow your man to be your superior, in certain areas, while you will excel in other areas. You certainly are capable of being his equal, but it won't lead to the intimacy you crave. If a woman is not able to trust a man to the degree that she is able to give up certain powers to him, the relationship might always be strained. On the other hand, I would ask a man to give up power to the woman of his choice. Without this meeting of minds, it will be tough for a couple to establish intimacy, closeness, and trust.
I have offered this theory to a number of singles, particularly single women, who have said to me, "I do so well in my job, and my career is thriving. I date frequently, yet something is missing. I can't seem to sustain a relationship," Then I ask the question, "Why do you need a man?" The typical response is, "I don't need a man! I would just like to have someone in my life." My reply to this is: if a man does not feel you need him, and there is nothing he can bring to your life that you could not have on your own, he will feel incapable of being your hero. He will feel as if you only want him involved on a superficial level. This is one of the best male repellents in existence. If you want men to never get too close to you, maintain your cherished independence. While some independece is healthy in a relationship, it often works against relationships.
The differences between men and women was actually designed so that they would complement each other. These differences, while they may be infuriating at times, actually produce a wonderful sense of intimacy. How can they work together? They work together because a man doesn't want to compete with a woman. A man has other male friends to compete with. He doesn't like, nor does he desire, to compete with his mate. That's why so many men avoid conflict in their relationships. When a man competes all he knows is to try and win, and a man doesn't want to win in competition over his wife or his girlfriend. He wants to please her and have a peaceful home.
posted
...Alistair, I refer you to every single thread that we have debated these issues on. Go back and read them. I have refuted, demolished, lampooned and despaired at the weak arguments you and Bibo use.
You are incapable of producing coherent paragraphs, without silly little repeat sentence strings. Your style is tedious and the re-treads you wheel out to fit every gender debate don't fit. Worse, you're in danger of becoming a bleater. Look how you entered this debate - firing up on all presumptious cylinders. It was perfectly civil until then.
It appears that every second person who argues with you has poor reading skills, yet you are unable to see how woefully sexist your viewpoint is. Do yourself a favour and read the previous threads we have debated this issue on. It's time you woke up to the reality of how insulting your views are to women. I'm sick of babying you, Alistair - do your own work.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
LOL what a cop out! See what I mean folks? She's afraid to debate me point for point, because she knows it will make her look bad
And for those that missed the huge debate I had with SWYS on gender equity, I'll re-state my side of the arguement, because SWYS is doing her best to portray me as a sexist and a misogynist with no logic and reason.
I'll let the readers decide.
My arguement was simply this:
If men and women are actually equal in all things, then why have women been forced into a submissive role throughout human history from day one?
If the two sexes were equal as SWYS claims, then why does/did such a horrid imbalance exist?
Why did the earliest humans form hunter gatherer societies, where men and women had strict gender roles and duties?
She never answered these questions, because for a delusional feminazi like SWYS, the TRUTH is a bitter pill to swallow, and therefore it's best ignored in favor of a LIE.
Thats how liberals work. They invented political correctness afterall, which is based on subverting the truth in favor of lies.
As for gender equality in modern times, the same discrepancies exist, although the manifestations are far more complex than they used to be. The equality between men and women is still an illusion, and will always be an illusion simply because the biological and mental differences between men and women make it impossible to equalize them.
Equality implies sameness, and two dissimilar things can never be truly equal.
Also, even though men and women aren't fundamentally equal, it doesn't mean that men are superior to women, or vice versa.
It is simplest logic, yet SWYS cannot understand this concept.
You can only realize a pseudo form of equality, but never the real thing.
This DOESN'T mean that I'm necessarily against this pseudo-equality. I think it has it's uses, in that it serves to promote greater awareness of womens' rights which is a good thing.
Still, logically, there can never be REAL equality between men and women, because as I said, the fundamental differences between the two sexes make it impossible for real equality to exist.
No matter how much you want to believe in this pseudo equality, you cannot ignore reality..
Yet because I dare to state the OBVIOUS rather than believing in a lie fabricated by leftist lunatics, she calls me a sexist.
Believe me, I am no sexist. I would never seek to actively discriminate or harm women in any way shape or form.
But, to females like SWYS, any man that doesn't agree with her is a sexist.
Look how many men on this forum she's argued with, and every time, she has called them sexists or misogynists for God's sake!
~Alistair
-------------------- Lies fade like smoke when uncovered..but Truth, burns like fire. Posts: 1221 | Registered: Sep 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Prince of Nothing: LOL what a cop out! See what I mean folks? She's afraid to debate me point for point, because she knows it will make her look bad
And for those that missed the huge debate I had with SWYS on gender equity, I'll re-state my side of the arguement, because SWYS is doing her best to portray me as a sexist and a misogynist with no logic and reason.
I'll let the readers decide.
My arguement was simply this:
If men and women are actually equal in all things, then why have women been forced into a submissive role throughout human history from day one?
If the two sexes were equal as SWYS claims, then why does/did such a horrid imbalance exist?
Why did the earliest humans form hunter gatherer societies, where men and women had strict gender roles and duties?
She never answered these questions, because for a delusional feminazi like SWYS, the TRUTH is a bitter pill to swallow, and therefore it's best ignored in favor of a LIE.
Thats how liberals work. They invented political correctness afterall, which is based on subverting the truth in favor of lies.
As for gender equality in modern times, the same discrepancies exist, although the manifestations are far more complex than they used to be. The equality between men and women is still an illusion, and will always be an illusion simply because the biological and mental differences between men and women make it impossible to equalize them.
Equality implies sameness, and two dissimilar things can never be truly equal.
Also, even though men and women aren't fundamentally equal, it doesn't mean that men are superior to women, or vice versa.
It is simplest logic, yet SWYS cannot understand this concept.
You can only realize a pseudo form of equality, but never the real thing.
This DOESN'T mean that I'm necessarily against this pseudo-equality. I think it has it's uses, in that it serves to promote greater awareness of womens' rights which is a good thing.
Still, logically, there can never be REAL equality between men and women, because as I said, the fundamental differences between the two sexes make it impossible for real equality to exist.
No matter how much you want to believe in this pseudo equality, you cannot ignore reality..
Yet because I dare to state the OBVIOUS rather than believing in a lie fabricated by leftist lunatics, she calls me a sexist.
Believe me, I am no sexist. I would never seek to actively discriminate or harm women in any way shape or form.
But, to females like SWYS, any man that doesn't agree with her is a sexist.
Look how many men on this forum she's argued with, and every time, she has called them sexists or misogynists for God's sake!
~Alistair
Oh dear God... how does one debate 'nothing' point by point? Nothing is what your arguments amount to, oh Prince of. I have spent way too much time on ES, laboriously refuting, point for tedious point, your gender equality dismissals. You simply don't get how insulting your views are. Women and men know they are physically different - doh! Equality is about access to opportunities, education, work, society. You are claiming that because men and women are biologically different, they can't be equal. I am claiming that they can be equal at work, in education and across the social and political spectrum despite differences.
You deliberately distort the word equal to suit your sexist agenda. You rabbit on about how equality is 'pseudo'. The female doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, politicians, managers and host of others doing equal work for equal pay prove you wrong. Women still have a way to go - but the ones lucky enough to have had opportunities aren't pseudo equal. You simply don't get the basics of the equality debate and make senseless points like:. PON: ''Equality implies sameness, and two dissimilar things can never be truly equal.'' I guess some idiots once used that argument about black people.
Here is just one of several similar threads, where I have carefully responded to the twaddle you present as debate:
PON ''It is simplest logic, yet SWYS cannot understand this concept.''
Too too funny, especially in light of the snippet someone just sent to me:
14-01-2007: 'PRICE OF NOTHING DUDE' : ''SayWhatYouSee, are you a chick or a dude? I'm getting a chick vibration from you, but because your mind is so logical, you could be a dude as well'' ~Alistair
...and he thinks he isn't sexist.
PS: Prince of Nothing: ''Look how many men on this forum she's argued with, and every time, she has called them sexists or misogynists for God's sake!''
That's unfair, Alistair...some men here are sexist AND misogynist. Luckily, there are men on this forum who are neither and they are fun to debate with. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Equality is about access to opportunities, education, work, society. You are claiming that because men and women are biologically different, they can't be equal. I am claiming that they can be equal at work, in education and across the social and political spectrum despite differences.
You are so utterly naive. There is not one Society on this planet where men and women are equal at work, education and especially across the social and political spectrum.
And there never will be, so long as insurmountable biological and mental differences between the sexes exist.
You and yours are content to settle for a watered down joke of equality, where LAWS exist to ensure it's continuity on the other hand.
Yes, it's equal when men are drafted for War and women aren't. It's equal when the vast majority of the power and wealth on this planet is wielded by men. It's equal when women serve less time in jail for the same crime compared to men. It's equal when the Military and other masculine institutions have to purposely lower their training standards to recruit women in their ranks..
This is your sacred equality SWYS, and it is a joke.
quote:The female doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, politicians, managers and host of others doing equal work for equal pay prove you wrong. Women still have a way to go - but the ones lucky enough to have had opportunities aren't pseudo equal.
Equal work for equal pay eh? I wonder why the feminazis like you are always complaining that women make 75 cents for every dollar that a man makes then?
Perhaps you need to call up your buddy Gloria Steinem and tell her the facts LOL!
You're obviously not a big picture person SWYS, if you think citing examples of female doctors, engineers, politicians etc proves your point.
It doesn't. In the grand scheme of things, women are still shafted the World over, and accept, or are denied whatever rights and priviledges they are given by men.
It's a hard truth, but it's the truth nonetheless, and it just goes to show my point.
That there is no inherent equality amongst women and men.
quote:You simply don't get the basics of the equality debate and make senseless points like:. PON: ''Equality implies sameness, and two dissimilar things can never be truly equal.'' I guess some idiots once used that argument about black people.
This is where your feminazi brain totally shuts down and comes to a grinding halt.
Just because no equality exists, it doesn't mean men are superior to women, or vice versa.
Equality truly is a myth. There is no equality between men and women, and there is no equality amongst men either.
There is no equality in LIFE period.
quote:Here is just one of several similar threads, where I have carefully responded to the twaddle you present as debate:
Great, I was wondering when you were going to start the shameless cut and paste act
Do you trawl over long past conversations, in hopes to use things I once said against me?
Thats just sick...
quote:14-01-2007: 'PRICE OF NOTHING DUDE' : ''SayWhatYouSee, are you a chick or a dude? I'm getting a chick vibration from you, but because your mind is so logical, you could be a dude as well'' ~Alistair
...and he thinks he isn't sexist.
LOL you are truly twisted.. You think just because I said, "your mind is logical so you must be a dude" that I'm sexist now?
I now HATE women, and actively discriminate against them simply because of that little sentence, which was made more in jest than anything?
Oh yeah SWYS, that really proves lock stock and barrel, that I'm sexist!
BRAVO!
How could the other board members not see it! It's so plain and obvious!
LOL, if that is the criteria you use to judge whether a man is sexist or not, then I truly pity you.
quote:That's unfair, Alistair...some men here are sexist AND misogynist. Luckily, there are men on this forum who are neither and they are fun to debate with.
No it's not unfair. You are pathetic in this, because your standards for determining what is sexist or not is so absolutely ridiculous.
Dunes calls you all sorts of names, so he MUST be sexist, even though he treats other female board members with great respect.
If Dunes is so sexist, then why doesn't he mistreat EVERY woman, rather than some?
Same goes for Auto.
And if I'm a sexist for making a silly little comment which plays on gender stereotypes, then your position is even more ludicrous.
It's plain and apparent that you use the word sexist with no regard whatsoever for it's TRUE meaning SWYS, which is just sad.
You're no better than race baiters like Jesse Jackson who try to find racism in every word and sentence, and if there is none, they just make it up!
Simply disagree with one of them, and they're more than ready to drop the "race bomb" and perform character assassination by calling you a racist
posted
We haven't yet experienced world dominated by women, but when that happens I think Prince of Nothing will be so pleased, as it seems to me, he likes a woman who dominates but will not admit.
Men and women are like Yin ( feminine ) and Yang ( masculine ).
- they are the two fundamental equally important energies. - they are equally WORTH, but unlike each other in essence - they are not the same, and have lots of variations in each ( some people are more feminine, some more masculine, there are all spectrums of femininity and masculinity ) - they are equally important - they complement each other
The interactions and balance of these forces ( how high is level of femininity and masculinity ) in people and nature influence their behavior and fate.
Now God creates us all worth and equal to HIM, in that sense we are both equal, however we still can chose our path along the way in currently "men dominated world"( such as what role to take and why? ).
Since the world is dominated by men, it's natural that scale will be pushed towards helping women, and then one day world is going to be dominated by women. You can't stop this, you can postpone it, but you can't stop progress of human civillization.
We explored "male dominated world" for centuries, there will come time to explore "women dominated world" as well. Then naturally, after years and years of female domination, people will realize this is not ideal ( as male dominated world wasn't ideal ), they will start pushing the scale to shift somewhere in the "middle". That "middle" is the balance - men and women are finally in harmony. Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote: It isn't a new relationship concept to say that men and women relate differently. The Bible is the first book I remember reading, which identified these differences, stating that the man was the head of the wife and the wife should respect her husband. Because of the misapplication of these verses, many women are afraid of giving any man that kind of power. During the 1990's, two books in particular dared to tell women that it was not only safe, but powerful, to be woman. Men are from Mars, Women are from Venus, by Johj Gray, and Getting To I Do, by Dr. Patricia Allen, both showed millions of women and men that each sex has a different and important way of relating, which contributes to a meaningful and intimate relationship. If I had to pick between the two, I would select Dr. Allen's book, because it allows for the fact that not all women want to be feminine. In Getting To I Do, Dr. Allen describes the relationship between a man and a woman as having a different energy, and how a woman's response to a man will either foster closeness or repel him like a toxic smell. Both of these books contributed to the concept of the man being the Head and the Woman responding as the Heart, but I want to acknowledge that Getting To I Do has been the most helpful book I have recommended to my female clients over the years. Sometimes I meet with wives who complain that their husbands want to rule over them. Conversely, I know husbands who gripe about how disrespectful their wives are. Behind these complaints is the premise that both partners are equal. In the current age of women's liberation, this can be an extremely valid point.
The problem with this point is that I have noticed that being equal is overvalued when applied to relationships. Equal implies that each person in the relationship is supposed to have the same amount of power and influence. The reality is that men and women have different strengths that are meant to complement each other. Some areas, such as nurturing, are generally more predominant in women, while other is easier for a man. In that sense, two adults are equal in their ability, even though those abilities are different.
Yet, many times, each partner in a relationship tends to confuse equal with familiar. They want to treat the other partner in a way that is familiar to him or her. It gives the impression that they are both the same person. If a woman demand tons of respect, it becomes very hard for her husband or boyfriend to cherish her. If the boyfriend or husband constantly wants his feelings taken care of, it will be hard for his girlfriend or wife to respect him.
In relationships, complements - not equals - work well together. In complementary couples, each individual brings a unique set of characteristics into the partnership with the other person, who through his or her own unique characteristics helps form a bond, producing a relationship that is mutually fulfilling. A women should want to be her man's complement, not his equal. A man should want to be his wife's complement, not her equal. However, when women and men want to be equal I tell them that by vying for that spot, they are actually competing with their partner. If your husband or boyfriend thinks of you as his equal, he will treat you like a man. He will be respectful, but he probably won't be affectionate. He will be courteous, but he will be hesitant to play with you, because men have a build-in need to take care of women. If a woman presents herself in such a way that she does not need a man, men will often pick up on this attitude and respond by treating her like one of the boys.
Now, this is where my advice begins to get a little sticky. Women, I am going to ask that you allow your man to be your superior, in certain areas, while you will excel in other areas. You certainly are capable of being his equal, but it won't lead to the intimacy you crave. If a woman is not able to trust a man to the degree that she is able to give up certain powers to him, the relationship might always be strained. On the other hand, I would ask a man to give up power to the woman of his choice. Without this meeting of minds, it will be tough for a couple to establish intimacy, closeness, and trust.
I have offered this theory to a number of singles, particularly single women, who have said to me, "I do so well in my job, and my career is thriving. I date frequently, yet something is missing. I can't seem to sustain a relationship," Then I ask the question, "Why do you need a man?" The typical response is, "I don't need a man! I would just like to have someone in my life." My reply to this is: if a man does not feel you need him, and there is nothing he can bring to your life that you could not have on your own, he will feel incapable of being your hero. He will feel as if you only want him involved on a superficial level. This is one of the best male repellents in existence. If you want men to never get too close to you, maintain your cherished independence. While some independece is healthy in a relationship, it often works against relationships.
The differences between men and women was actually designed so that they would complement each other. These differences, while they may be infuriating at times, actually produce a wonderful sense of intimacy. How can they work together? They work together because a man doesn't want to compete with a woman. A man has other male friends to compete with. He doesn't like, nor does he desire, to compete with his mate. That's why so many men avoid conflict in their relationships. When a man competes all he knows is to try and win, and a man doesn't want to win in competition over his wife or his girlfriend. He wants to please her and have a peaceful home.
I like a lot of what you have posted here but it seems to put all of the responsibility on the woman. What is the responsibility of the man? I know that many men abuse this idea of taking care of the woman and become abusive.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
So... to explain further this phenomena, I think it's important to see how Nature deals with femininity and masculinity.
"Imagine a world in which any female who achieved a position of authority automatically metamorphosed into a male. Or a female-dominated world in which a male seizing power would lose his testicles and become the queen.
Such goings-on may suggest life on a faraway galaxy, but it happens here on this planet, under the surface of the sea.
Some fish spontaneously change behavior, reproductive organs and often shape and coloration, a mysterious transformation scientists are only now beginning to understand.
Research suggests that in humans, too, social cues like marriage and parenthood can alter our sex-hormone levels.
But for us, gender is set by the presence or absence of a gene normally on the Y chromosome and is relatively hard to change. For fish, genetic and environmental factors determine sex.
Clownfish groups are headed by a dominant female who rules over a subordinate male and a number of juvenile, asexual satellites. If the male dies, little Nemo could become a true male and replace him. If the female then died, Nemo would change sex.
it's possible the female, sensing her own dominance, acts aggressively, and this new behavior is what triggers the physical sex change.
Researchers also found the process can reverse. When they put multiple males together, one established himself as boss; the others turned female."
posted
It seems to me that the problem in this discussion lies in with the word equal. I think fair is a better word to use. Woman want to be treated fairly. When the man assumes the dictator and oppressor role the only option for the woman is to assert herself to prove her value.
quote:I fear that your words above explain what is wrong with some men. They are so insecure that they have to try and suppress, catagorise or control women to carve out a 'leadership' role for themselves.
This is correct what SWYS says here. She also says some men.
I think most woman really want to be taken care of as undercover suggested men want to do. But then you can argue about the definiton of "taken care of". I have been "taken care of" and it didn't feel good, now I want to be loved.
In a marriage if the man would love and cherish his wife, he would be oh such a happy man. Cause when a woman truly loves a man she will give him the world.
To me it is such an attractive feature in a man to see gentleness. Here you have such physical strength that can really over power a woman and when he has an air of gentleness it is such a turn on. Like softness in a strong package. Too often men will suppress any gentleness to prove their manliness. To their downfall, in my view.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: We haven't yet experienced world dominated by women, but when that happens I think Prince of Nothing will be so pleased, as it seems to me, he likes a woman who dominates but will not admit.
Men and women are like Yin ( feminine ) and Yang ( masculine ).
- they are the two fundamental equally important energies. - they are equally WORTH, but unlike each other in essence - they are not the same, and have lots of variations in each ( some people are more feminine, some more masculine, there are all spectrums of femininity and masculinity ) - they are equally important - they complement each other
The interactions and balance of these forces ( how high is level of femininity and masculinity ) in people and nature influence their behavior and fate.
Now God creates us all worth and equal to HIM, in that sense we are both equal, however we still can chose our path along the way in currently "men dominated world"( such as what role to take and why? ).
Since the world is dominated by men, it's natural that scale will be pushed towards helping women, and then one day world is going to be dominated by women. You can't stop this, you can postpone it, but you can't stop progress of human civillization.
We explored "male dominated world" for centuries, there will come time to explore "women dominated world" as well. Then naturally, after years and years of female domination, people will realize this is not ideal ( as male dominated world wasn't ideal ), they will start pushing the scale to shift somewhere in the "middle". That "middle" is the balance - men and women are finally in harmony.
There are more women in the world then men..(I believe a known fact). What is the hold up of woman domination? Could it not be true that the majority of woman don't share your vision of women ruling men or dominating men?
Something to think about!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: We haven't yet experienced world dominated by women, but when that happens I think Prince of Nothing will be so pleased, as it seems to me, he likes a woman who dominates but will not admit.
Who says I won't admit it? I like aggressive women
Anyway, this whole topic was never about men vs women; atleast not to me.
For me, it was a matter of philosophy. SWYS on the other hand, approaches this on a passionate level, which is why she's so fond of using words like sexist and misogynist.
What I'm saying though, completely transcends sexism and misogyny.
The Bible, Qu'ran and Torah preach that all men are created equal under God.
Yet has there ever been a Society/Civilization wherein all men were equal in any way shape or form?
Ofcourse not.
Equality is a myth. Every one of us is different, and because of those differences, we can never have real equality.
However Society creates all manner of laws and regulations to ensure an illusion of equality.....and there's nothing wrong with this.
It's a noble, but futile gesture, because the World is a marvel of inequality by it's very nature.
You can't fight the nature of the World, which is why you inevitably end up with a broken form of equality, which is only sustained through the power of belief.
If people believe they are all equal, then they are equal....despite the fact that they are not.
This is really all I've been saying, yet SWYS has been busting my balls big time over this
posted
Actually Prince you are right. Nothing is equal. Even men are not born on a level playing field. ie...intelligence, financial, color, status...There is no illusion of equality except maybe in the republican platform. I don't think anyone should lower their abilities to make others feel good about themselves, male or female. I don't think standards should be lowered to allow someone with less intelligence or less strength be able to participate. I do think that the laws that govern should be fair.
Also. Strength is relative. Who is stronger, the man who blows up his enemy or the man who loves his enemy?
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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posted
Yeah, why pick on my favorite American? Of all the men on this forum, he's the best friend of women we've got! I mean, look at the alternatives!
I know what ya mean Alistair....
Posts: 407 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tigerlily: "[The Koran says]: 'Do not marry unbelieving women, until they believe: A slave woman who believes is better than an unbelieving woman, even though she allures you. Nor marry (your girls) to unbelievers until they believe: A man slave who believes is better than an unbeliever, even though he allures you. Unbelievers do [but] beckon you to the Fire. But Allah beckons by His Grace to the Garden [of bliss] and forgiveness [Koran 2:221].'
This part of the koran sounds a bit BDSM.
Which begs the question, if a slave woman is better than an unbelieving woman, is it the duty of good muslims to whup the unbelieving woman's azz til she repents?
Posts: 2404 | Registered: May 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Actually Prince you are right. Nothing is equal. Even men are not born on a level playing field. ie...intelligence, financial, color, status...There is no illusion of equality except maybe in the republican platform.
...I do think that the laws that govern should be fair.
I agree
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Islam recognizes inherent differences between men and women, rich and poor, intelligent and not intelligent people, good and bad people? The world is not "fair" in that all people don't have /aren't created the same,
I would write your points as follows:
1. Islam is equitable to all people according to their nature, conditions, and ability. It is people that treat others unfairly. 2. ... Men and women both have valuable complementary roles, not competing roles. All human beings are creations of Allah and in that they all deserve to be treated with respect.
quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Equality is about access to opportunities, education, work, society. You are claiming that because men and women are biologically different, they can't be equal. I am claiming that they can be equal at work, in education and across the social and political spectrum despite differences.
You are so utterly naive. There is not one Society on this planet where men and women are equal at work, education and especially across the social and political spectrum.
And there never will be, so long as insurmountable biological and mental differences between the sexes exist.
You and yours are content to settle for a watered down joke of equality, where LAWS exist to ensure it's continuity on the other hand.
Yes, it's equal when men are drafted for War and women aren't. It's equal when the vast majority of the power and wealth on this planet is wielded by men. It's equal when women serve less time in jail for the same crime compared to men. It's equal when the Military and other masculine institutions have to purposely lower their training standards to recruit women in their ranks..
This is your sacred equality SWYS, and it is a joke.
quote:The female doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, politicians, managers and host of others doing equal work for equal pay prove you wrong. Women still have a way to go - but the ones lucky enough to have had opportunities aren't pseudo equal.
Equal work for equal pay eh? I wonder why the feminazis like you are always complaining that women make 75 cents for every dollar that a man makes then?
Perhaps you need to call up your buddy Gloria Steinem and tell her the facts LOL!
You're obviously not a big picture person SWYS, if you think citing examples of female doctors, engineers, politicians etc proves your point.
It doesn't. In the grand scheme of things, women are still shafted the World over, and accept, or are denied whatever rights and priviledges they are given by men.
It's a hard truth, but it's the truth nonetheless, and it just goes to show my point.
That there is no inherent equality amongst women and men.
quote:You simply don't get the basics of the equality debate and make senseless points like:. PON: ''Equality implies sameness, and two dissimilar things can never be truly equal.'' I guess some idiots once used that argument about black people.
This is where your feminazi brain totally shuts down and comes to a grinding halt.
Just because no equality exists, it doesn't mean men are superior to women, or vice versa.
Equality truly is a myth. There is no equality between men and women, and there is no equality amongst men either.
There is no equality in LIFE period.
quote:Here is just one of several similar threads, where I have carefully responded to the twaddle you present as debate:
Great, I was wondering when you were going to start the shameless cut and paste act
Do you trawl over long past conversations, in hopes to use things I once said against me?
Thats just sick...
quote:14-01-2007: 'PRICE OF NOTHING DUDE' : ''SayWhatYouSee, are you a chick or a dude? I'm getting a chick vibration from you, but because your mind is so logical, you could be a dude as well'' ~Alistair
...and he thinks he isn't sexist.
LOL you are truly twisted.. You think just because I said, "your mind is logical so you must be a dude" that I'm sexist now?
I now HATE women, and actively discriminate against them simply because of that little sentence, which was made more in jest than anything?
Oh yeah SWYS, that really proves lock stock and barrel, that I'm sexist!
BRAVO!
How could the other board members not see it! It's so plain and obvious!
LOL, if that is the criteria you use to judge whether a man is sexist or not, then I truly pity you.
quote:That's unfair, Alistair...some men here are sexist AND misogynist. Luckily, there are men on this forum who are neither and they are fun to debate with.
No it's not unfair. You are pathetic in this, because your standards for determining what is sexist or not is so absolutely ridiculous.
Dunes calls you all sorts of names, so he MUST be sexist, even though he treats other female board members with great respect.
If Dunes is so sexist, then why doesn't he mistreat EVERY woman, rather than some?
Same goes for Auto.
And if I'm a sexist for making a silly little comment which plays on gender stereotypes, then your position is even more ludicrous.
It's plain and apparent that you use the word sexist with no regard whatsoever for it's TRUE meaning SWYS, which is just sad.
You're no better than race baiters like Jesse Jackson who try to find racism in every word and sentence, and if there is none, they just make it up!
Simply disagree with one of them, and they're more than ready to drop the "race bomb" and perform character assassination by calling you a racist
~Alistair
Prince of Nothing, let's try an experiment? The next time you post, why don't you try to summarise your train of thought into coherent paragraphs, rather than the endless dissecting of single sentences? When something is pertinent, quote it - by all means - just give the argument space to move on. In return, I'll spoon you the bite sized little fragments you love so much - *just this once*. Arguments will remain as stale as - well - your arguments, otherwise.
Prince of Nothing: '"You are so utterly naive. There is not one Society on this planet where men and women are equal at work, education and especially across the social and political spectrum.''
I have repeatedly stated that gender equality is something to strive for. It's by no means perfect or global. Like it or not, in progressive environments, when men and women work alongside each other, performing the same job, to the same performance standards, they have equality at work. Your tired plays around the word 'equal' are juvenile and show an inability to understand the complexity of the issues.
Prince of Nothing: ''And there never will be, so long as insurmountable biological and mental differences between the sexes exist.''
Utter rubbish. You laughably try to make this sound like a universal truth. The reality is that men and women, for the vast majority of jobs, are equally capable. The only exception is that men are generally physically stronger. Certain women may match the strength of individual men, of course...to the standard required for a specific job. Employers in the real world set standards that both sexes are expected to meet. You simply don't get the fundamentals here.
'Prince of Nothing: 'You and yours are content to settle for a watered down joke of equality, where LAWS exist to ensure it's continuity on the other hand.''
Civilisation does have *LAWS*...doh! Such laws protect simpletons like you from being throttled, so you should be a little more grateful. Modern democracies give men and women equal votes. Yes, all votes are equal, Alistair. These votes are used to shape the law. Should we abandon all 'LAWS' as according to you, we should be following a prehistoric lifestyle? Nah - you caveman, me sane!
'Prince of Nothing: ''It's equal when the vast majority of the power and wealth on this planet is wielded by men.''
Where did I claim there was total, perfect equality on a global or national scale? I've repeatedly stated that equal rights is an ongoing struggle but remarkable progress has been made.
'Prince of Nothing: '' It's equal when women serve less time in jail for the same crime compared to men.''
What part of my statement, ''I care about the rights of both men and women'' don't you get? Injustices should be tackled when they apply to men too.
'Prince of Nothing: '' It's equal when the Military and other masculine institutions have to purposely lower their training standards to recruit women in their ranks.…''
It's up to the military to determine acceptable standards form men and women, within health and safety parameters. Write to your senator if you believe these are compromised.
'Prince of Nothing: Yes, it's equal when men are drafted for War and women aren't.
Huh? China, Eritrea, Israel, Libya, Malaysia, North Korea, Peru and Taiwan don't draft women into the army? During the second world war, didn't the UK and Russia draft women? Has the debate about drafting women in the states slipped your mind - or the possibility of a draft during difficult times? In America, right now, it isn't equal, I agree, but the issue has undergone a lot of scrutiny, in the states and it may change.
SWYS: ''The female doctors, engineers, lawyers, judges, politicians, managers and host of others doing equal work for equal pay prove you wrong. Women still have a way to go - but the ones lucky enough to have had opportunities aren't pseudo equal.''
'Prince of Nothing: ''Equal work for equal pay eh? I wonder why the feminazis like you are always complaining that women make 75 cents for every dollar that a man makes then?''
Actually, men make that point too. The world is full of feminazis, according to you, who seek no more than fairness. Earning equal pay, for equal work has been a fact of working life for me. Every penny was earned due to merit. That doesn't mean that the world or my country or region is perfect. There is a way to go. How many times do I have to write this before you get it?
''Prince of Nothing: 'In the grand scheme of things, women are still shafted the World over, and accept, or are denied whatever rights and priviledges they are given by men.''
Yeh, yeah, yeah...the world is just a big cave. Just because injustice occurs doesn't mean that justice or fairness doesn't or can't also exist. Women have fought for their rights (men too) and are still trying. Hell, some of us even have votes now.
''Prince of Nothing: 'Equality truly is a myth. There is no equality between men and women, and there is no equality amongst men either. There is no equality in LIFE period.''
More utter tosh. Your ridiculously simplistic argument reduces everything to semantics. Doh - we all know that people are different - the area you have issues with is acknowledging where people have the same qualities, skills or education. The childish arguments you make stall around the equal word. The rest of the civilised world focuses on equality of opportunity. The UK's Equality and Human Rights Commission use the slogan:
'WOMEN. MEN. DIFFERENT. EQUAL'. Is that easier for you to digest?
''The Equality and Human Rights Commission champions equality and human rights for all, working to eliminate discrimination, reduce inequality, protect human rights and to build good relations, ensuring that everyone has a fair chance to participate in society.''
Why you have such a problem with improving society is a mystery. The men who work at your level aren't equal, according to your logic - as they have different outlooks, backgrounds, abilities and strengths. They are judged on the work they do, but you only seem to have a problem with the differences between men and women at work - not men and men.
Alistair: ''The last time we debated this issue, you never answered any of my relevant questions even. Instead, you spent pages attacking ME, while dodging the issues at hand.''
I quoted just one link to prove the above point was untrue: SWYS: ''Here is just one of several similar threads, where I have carefully responded to the twaddle you present as debate:''
Prince of Madness: ''Great, I was wondering when you were going to start the shameless cut and paste act ''
You can't have it both ways. You made a statement - I refuted it with a link. Since when did a few lines constitute extensive cut and paste?
SWYS: ''14-01-2007: 'PRICE OF NOTHING DUDE' : ''SayWhatYouSee, are you a chick or a dude? I'm getting a chick vibration from you, but because your mind is so logical, you could be a dude as well'' ~Alistair '
Alistair: ''LOL you are truly twisted.. You think just because I said, "your mind is logical so you must be a dude" that I'm sexist now?''
It seems Alistair doesn't quite get irony.
Prince of Nothing: ''Look how many men on this forum she's argued with, and every time, she has called them sexists or misogynists for God's sake!''
SWYS: ''That's unfair, Alistair...some men here are sexist AND misogynist . Luckily, there are men on this forum who are neither and they are fun to debate with. ''
How big do I need to make the AND, before you see it, was a joke, dude?
Prince of Nothing: ''No it's not unfair. You are pathetic in this, because your standards for determining what is sexist or not is so absolutely ridiculous.''
Let's look at a few definitions of the word sexist. If the cap fits that enormous head of yours, Alistair, don't blame me for insisting you wear it:
''sexism... ... (actions based on) the belief that the members of one sex are less intelligent, able, skilful, etc. than the members of the other sex, especially that women are less able than men.''
1: prejudice or discrimination based on sex; especially : discrimination against women 2: behavior, conditions, or attitudes that foster stereotypes of social roles based on sex''
There are several specimens on ES whom I consider to be haters. They are usually happy enough until their idiocy is challenged. So far, I haven't viewed you as such a hater...you are simply misguided, with ridiculous prejudices. Equality of opportunity promoters recognise the biological differences between men and women. Most three year olds can. Gender equality debates are concerned with fairness. Somehow, your distorted thinking translates this into - only human clones can achieve equitable working, living, political and social conditions . No matter how many times I tell you that we all know people are different, you insist that these differences mean that the world should revert to the stone age. Wake up, Alsitair Flintstone, the world has moved on.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Actually Prince you are right. Nothing is equal. Even men are not born on a level playing field. ie...intelligence, financial, color, status...There is no illusion of equality except maybe in the republican platform.
...I do think that the laws that govern should be fair.
I agree
quote:Originally posted by newcomer: Islam recognizes inherent differences between men and women, rich and poor, intelligent and not intelligent people, good and bad people? The world is not "fair" in that all people don't have /aren't created the same,
I would write your points as follows:
1. Islam is equitable to all people according to their nature, conditions, and ability. It is people that treat others unfairly. 2. ... Men and women both have valuable complementary roles, not competing roles. All human beings are creations of Allah and in that they all deserve to be treated with respect.
From my limited knowledge of Islam, I do not see it as fair to woman. How can you claim it as fair to woman?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: How can you claim it as fair to woman?
My attention has waned off this topic, so please feel free to ignor my response as I'm only replying to this statement above.
This is just my 'i think' view on things...i find the religion itself to be fair (this is disputed, i know) to women. And this is coming from as someone who is huge feminist. But feminism or women's rights does not mean nullifying the responsibility of women and offering advantage of one gender over the other. If you look at all aspects you'll find men have certain restrictions as well (but they are twisted by some men who lack self-esteem, and need to feel superior without earning that respect). And the really important thing is not judge a belief system by it's followers (and that goes for most) or alone but rather in full context, because the gap between theory and practice is wide.
Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: How can you claim it as fair to woman?
This is just my 'i think' view on things...i find the religion itself to be fair (this is disputed, i know) to women. And this is coming from as someone who is huge feminist. But feminism or women's rights does not mean nullifying the responsibility of women and offering advantage of one gender over the other. If you look at all aspects you'll find men have certain restrictions as well (but they are twisted by some men who lack self-esteem, and need to feel superior without earning that respect). And the really important thing is not judge a belief system by it's followers (and that goes for most) or alone but rather in full context, because the gap between theory and practice is wide.
Cairobug, I can respect this point of view. Admittedly, there is a huge blur for me between what is the view of the followers and what is the real religion. With this in mind, I still view it as unfair to woman.
I would also like to note that I have developed a much more negative view of Islam since reading this board and seeing what some Muslims here have to say and how they speak.
To be fair I have developed a negative view of the Christian "religion" as well due to (shall we say) the organized Christian church's "radical right" views. It seems by looking at these two religions that the extremist have become the vocal and public representatives of their selected religion.
My conclusion is that religion is invented by man to suit his whims and God is greater than religion and looks at the heart of the man.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Cairobug, I can respect this point of view. Admittedly, there is a huge blur for me between what is the view of the followers and what is the real religion. With this in mind, I still view it as unfair to woman.
I would also like to note that I have developed a much more negative view of Islam since reading this board and seeing what some Muslims here have to say and how they speak.
To be fair I have developed a negative view of the Christian "religion" as well due to (shall we say) the organized Christian church's "radical right" views. It seems by looking at these two religions that the extremist have become the vocal and public representatives of their selected religion.
My conclusion is that religion is invented by man to suit his whims and God is greater than religion and looks at the heart of the man.
Subhana Allah when I read this reply. The first thought that came to mind was what we as Muslims hear in the Friday Sermon. One of the verses that we hear says (translated): "whomever Allah decides to guide then NONE can give him misguidance and whosever Allah decides to leave astray NONE can guide him."
I a so blessed and thankful for the unlimted bounties that Allah Azza wa Jal as showered me with. Sometime I loose sight of this. Today I was just thinking (I'm kind of in depressing mood) that I am surrounded by bid'ah (innovation) and kufr(disbelief) even though I currently reside in the land of Muslims. It can be even more depressing because we can understand the kufur in the land of the disbelievers but it is a hard pill to swallow seeing the same qualities in the hearts and actions of Muslims in the land of the Muslims.
However, with all of said my greatest bounty that I have been given is my eman (faith) in Islaam. Islaam is perfect. It is the people who tarnish the image of Islaam.
I hope and pray that you too of_Gold will one day be given the opportunity to see and understand what Islaam has to offer you (and I as well). For we both have not really tasted the sweetness of faith.
Do not get too discourages. As long as you have breathe keep striving and asking for the truth and do not let people distract you from ultimately earning Allah's love.
Wishing you the best!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
I was raised by a hard as nails mother who always insisted that men were beneath and inferior to women (don't ask me why). She always insisted women could rule the world much better than men if we were so inclined and had more physical strength.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lovingmylife: We haven't yet experienced world dominated by women, but when that happens I think Prince of Nothing will be so pleased, as it seems to me, he likes a woman who dominates but will not admit.
Who says I won't admit it? I like aggressive women
Do you think and believe that agressive woman is equal to you?
Why do you like dominant ( agressive ) women?
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:sexism...(actions based on) the belief that the members of one sex are less intelligent, able, skilful, etc. than the members of the other sex, especially that women are less able than men.
Ummm, it seems to me that Prince was saying the following:
He believes men and women "should be equal" but in reality, they are not because no man INDIVIDUALLY is equal to another, and no woman individually is equal to another.
We should, be we are not. We are all different.
The world now is dominated by men, thus the world is not equal towards women.
He was saying that he would LOVE TO see equality but he doesn't know if that's possible, because Nature by itself is not producing equality in all aspects. That was my understanding.
In other words, femininity is not same as masculinity, and masculinity is same as femininity, they both worth and equal in worth, but they are not the same, these are 2 different in essence genetically.
One has different advantages than other, both are worth in equal way but they are not same thus these 2 can not be naturally equally same.
Of gold is also right when she pointed out about word "equal".
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Correction: In other words, femininity is not same as masculinity, and masculinity is not same as femininity, they are both worth and equal in worth, but they are not the same, these are 2 different in essence genetically. ----
This reminds me on my favorite Cold Stone Ice cream:
Each is worth, equally worth, take one away, the ice cream is not the same, but these are all different in essence, they are not the very same thing, they are equally worth though.
Now not all chocolade ice creams are the same, you have some made with Swiss dark chocolade and other with regular chocolade, these are not the same. Not all almonds are same, they could be all different size for example, and in the same manner for every other ingredient.
I think femininity and masculinity complement each other. Some people are more feminine some more masculine but genetically these 2 are made to be different in essence yet * equally worth * and together they can achieve a lot.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Aggressive and assertive are two different things, I think that is something men tend to forget about women.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Cairobug, I can respect this point of view. Admittedly, there is a huge blur for me between what is the view of the followers and what is the real religion. With this in mind, I still view it as unfair to woman.
I would also like to note that I have developed a much more negative view of Islam since reading this board and seeing what some Muslims here have to say and how they speak.
To be fair I have developed a negative view of the Christian "religion" as well due to (shall we say) the organized Christian church's "radical right" views. It seems by looking at these two religions that the extremist have become the vocal and public representatives of their selected religion.
My conclusion is that religion is invented by man to suit his whims and God is greater than religion and looks at the heart of the man.
I think you just may have met the wrong people. Regardless of faith, there are lots of nice down to earth people who practice religion. All that I've met that are Muslim, Christian, Jewish, and Buddhist have alot in common. And the thing with the forum that I'm starting to realize is, it's one of those--whoever can shout the loudest...
And on what smuckers mentioned (the mother that believed women were better), I was raised by a father that was like that--and he fully believed that it is the individual and not the gender that affects your ability to reason and be successful. Thing is also I think that some people who appear to be religious are not pushing their views for the sake of others, but to convince themselves. Everyone is entitled to their way of trying to get closer to their faith, so don't be offended by it. And there are people here who are just bent against Islam, with a passion for showing all the negative.
Posts: 483 | From: cairo | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: There are more women in the world then men..(I believe a known fact). What is the hold up of woman domination? Could it not be true that the majority of woman don't share your vision of women ruling men or dominating men? Something to think about!
But have you noticed many men are becoming gays? In other words, more feminine.
As I said, one day women will eventually dominate because that is how is supposed to progress eventually. People will explore women dominated world it for centuries, then they will realize this is not ideal as men dominated world wasn't ideal and the scale will be pushed towards "Middle". That Middle IS IDEAL, the balance between men and women. Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
and... maybe women will not dominate in the same way as men.
This will in large extent help and change human idea about * womens worth * as well.
Not recognizing women's worth, makes women unhappy, so they will always push for a change until they get it.
You know that saying "It's not the size of the dog, but the size of fight in the dog ". Women are capable of leading the world but often since the world is men dominated women have less chances to emerge.
That doesn't mean they are not there, and that they will not make it. It's just that people in general make it harder.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
Why does anyone have to dominate? Why can't we take advantages of each others strengths and at the same time be understanding of their weakness? Then we can all work together to create a world where peace and prosperity abound.
-------------------- "Not everything that counts can be counted, and not everything that can be counted counts." (Sign hanging in Einstein's office at Princeton) Leap and the Net will Appear. Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by cairobug: I was raised by a father that was like that--and he fully believed that it is the individual and not the gender that affects your ability to reason and be successful.
I was raised in Islamic family, everyone I know is born Muslim as far as I can remember. My father is Muslim, I am born Muslim, and my father raised me with full recognition as a woman, never let me down based on my gender neither my mother or any female. Every child is different I was always encouraged to think on my own, to question, to be my own person, to be whatever I want to be. He simply guided me to become a person that I was born to be.
My other sibling is different. She is totally of dependent nature and sees her ideal life as to be taken care of, yet she is in charge of everything. She is intellectual but doesn't want independency, and likes to be home. He encouraged her to be more independent, she chose not to be. Nothing wrong in either choice, I am happy she is happy, although I think her life is easier.
But the fact is, nobody disvalued me as a woman. I never felt inferior to any man in my life! My father is also very religious Muslim, but this is how he understood religion, to be supportive of his children. He also was raised without his father ( father died ) and he spent most of his life with his mother helping her to raise other siblings alone. He respected her, provided for her, she lived with us for years, he took care of her and really loved her in all means.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Why does anyone have to dominate? Why can't we take advantages of each others strengths and at the same time be understanding of their weakness? Then we can all work together to create a world where peace and prosperity abound.
That would be good idea, however, I think that until people experience all spectrums of male and female dominance they can't know, or they refuse to do it. So it's necessary.
Humans can be often very unwilling, seriously. Only after they experience it, they want to change, but not before.
Posts: 1039 | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:Originally posted by cairobug: I was raised by a father that was like that--and he fully believed that it is the individual and not the gender that affects your ability to reason and be successful.
I was raised in Islamic family, everyone I know is born Muslim as far as I can remember. My father is Muslim, I am born Muslim, and my father raised me with full recognition as a woman, never let me down based on my gender neither my mother or any female. Every child is different I was always encouraged to think on my own, to question, to be my own person, to be whatever I want to be. He simply guided me to become a person that I was born to be.
My other sibling is different. She is totally of dependent nature and sees her ideal life as to be taken care of, yet she is in charge of everything. She is intellectual but doesn't want independency, and likes to be home. He encouraged her to be more independent, she chose not to be. Nothing wrong in either choice, I am happy she is happy, although I think her life is easier.
But the fact is, nobody disvalued me as a woman. I never felt inferior to any man in my life! My father is also very religious Muslim, but this is how he understood religion, to be supportive of his children. He also was raised without his father ( father died ) and he spent most of his life with his mother helping her to raise other siblings alone. He respected her, provided for her, she lived with us for years, he took care of her and really loved her in all means.
LML, I was actually raised the same way by my father. I really never had any idea that there was suppose to be anything I couldn't do just because I am a woman.....until my X husband so kindly pointed this out for me.
Do you feel that you are one of the fortunate woman in the Muslim world though? I mean surly you don't believe that all Muslim woman are raised with the same value that your dad raised you with.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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'AntiHypocrisy' but forgive me, I don't usually click on ES links. Perhaps you may like to ponder on why women then outlive men in so many cultures?
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- yet you continue to state this like it was some kind of reason to exclude women from areas they are absolutely capable of accessing. The debate is still ongoing regards nature versus nurture or sociological impact. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
OG, sad but still true. I fear that your words above explain what is wrong with some men. They are so insecure that they have to try and suppress, catagorise or control women to carve out a 'leadership' role for themselves. 
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other than u wanna be
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