quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: But we have a isnad..You don't. We can trace our isnad or sanad to the Prophet Muhammad salallahu alayhi wassalaam. I don't believe you can make that claim.
I think if you follow Quran,it mentioned God inspired Jesus's disciples and if any one of them wrote something it would be from God.
[5:111] "And behold! I inspired the Disciples to have faith in Me and Mine Messenger.."
Gospels were written prior to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D a range of 10 up to 50 years after Jesus based on oral traditions and teachings was in the Jewish culture of that day up to now,as they are keen to prove they are Children of God so there history and family trees are very accurate,during this range after Jesus,many eyewitnesses were around to dispute and discredit any false claims,remember that many people are living now still remember what happened in world war I and II.
Matthew was Jesus's disciples he had written to Jews who were familiar with Old Testament,John also selected to be with Jesus and both of them were eye witnesses.
while Bukhari and his friends gathered Hadith by Isnad after p.Muhammed's death by 250 years many people died within this period and even Bukhari was from Uzbekistan,so which is close to be more accurate.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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I knew I read this information somewhere years ago..read carefully:
quote:Beginning in the 18th century, however, scholars have increasingly questioned that traditional view, and today the majority agree Matthew did not write the Gospel which bears his name.[3] Matthew primarily writes for the Greek-speaking Jewish Christians and Gentiles who were, at least partly, Torah observant. [4]
The relationship of Matthew to the Gospels of Mark and Luke is an open question known as the synoptic problem. The three together are referred to as the Synoptic Gospels and have a great deal of overlap in sentence structure and word choice. Out of a total of 1,071 verses, Matthew has 387 in common with Mark and the Gospel of Luke, 130 with Mark alone, 184 with Luke alone; only 370 being unique to itself.
Although the author of Matthew wrote according to his own plans and aims and from his own point of view, most scholars agree he borrowed (OR STOLE? These are my words the sandman) extensively from Mark, and possibly another source or sources as well. The most popular view in modern scholarship is the two-source hypothesis, which speculates that Matthew borrowed from both Mark and a hypothetical sayings collection, called Q (for the German Quelle, meaning "source"). A similar but less common view is the Farrer hypothesis, which theorizes that Matthew borrowed material only from Mark, and that Luke wrote last, using both earlier Synoptics. A minority of scholars subscribe to Early Christian tradition, which asserts Matthean priority, with Mark borrowing from Matthew (see: Augustinian hypothesis and Griesbach hypothesis). For example, in 1911, the Pontifical Biblical Commission[5] asserted that Matthew was the first gospel written, that it was written by the evangelist Matthew, and that it was written in Aramaic[6].
In The Four Gospels: A Study of Origins (1924), Burnett Hillman Streeter argued that a third source, referred to as M and also hypothetical, lies behind the material in Matthew that has no parallel in Mark or Luke.[7] Throughout the remainder of the 20th century, there were various challenges and refinements of Streeter's hypothesis. For example, in his 1953 book The Gospel Before Mark, Pierson Parker posited an early version of Matthew (proto-Matthew) as the primary source of both Matthew and Mark, and the Q source used by Matthew.[8]
Critical biblical scholars, like Herman N. Ridderbos in his book Matthew, do not consider the apostle Matthew to be the author of this Gospel. He cites a number of reasons such as the text being in Greek, not Aramaic, the Gospel's heavy reliance on Mark, and the lack of characteristics usually attributed to an eyewitness account.[9] Francis Write Beare goes on to say "there are clear indications that it is a product of the second or third Christian generation. The traditional name of Matthew is retained in modern discussion only for convenience."[10]
Date of gospel There is little in the gospel itself to indicate with clarity the date of its composition. The majority of scholars date the gospel between the years 70 and 100.[citation needed] The writings of Ignatius show "a strong case ... for [his] knowledge of four Pauline epistles and the Gospel of Matthew"[11], which gives a terminus ad quem of c. 110. Scholars cite multiple reasons to support this range, such as the time required for the theological views to develop between Mark and Matthew (assuming Markan priority), references to historic figures and events circa 70, and a later social context. Some significant conservative scholars argue for a pre-70 date, generally considering the gospel to be written by the apostle Matthew.[12] In December 1994, Carsten Peter Thiede redated the Magdalen papyrus, which bears a fragment in Greek of the Gospel of Matthew, to the late 1st century on palaeographical grounds. Most scholars date this fragment to the 3rd century, so Thiede's article provoked much debate.
A minority of Christian scholars argue for an even earlier date, as seen in the 1911 Catholic Encyclopedia: "Catholic critics, in general, favor the years 40–45..."[13] In recent times, John Wenham, one of the biggest supporters of the Augustinian hypothesis, is considered to be among the more notable defenders of an early date for the Gospel of Matthew.
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Hello Fresh..you are mighty quiet after the above post..why?
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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If you believe that Quran valid any time sure you have come across Sura 5:47
"Let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel."
Quran came after Gospels by almost 600 years where it were distributed to many countries and hundreds thousand believed, if Quran after all theses years confirmed that people of Gospels have to judge of what god has revealed therein, you think it would changed after that,the authors where just tools to God.
Regardless of the author, Quran quoted many stories from the 4 gospels including Matthew Gospel for examples.
1-Miracles of the Christ: sura 3:49
2-The Jewish's denial of the Christ: Sura 3:52
3-Virgin Mary's story Sura: 3:42-47
4- Difficulty of getting the wickedest into heaven Luke 18:25 mentioned "it is easier for a camel to enter in through a needle's eye" Quran quoted the same sura 7:40 "until the camel goes through the eye of the needle""
5-The Christ' raised up to the sky: Sura: 4:158
What revelation you believe it came through angel Gabriel which quoted from other previous books, who has stolen from who? Matthew stole from Mark or angel Gabriel had stolen the whole Bible, why you don't go closer to admit that your prophet made up everything for his favour which is the high probability than other claims
Quran quoted these stories and many else from the bible thay you are doubt about its authentication, the comedy thing that you believed Quran as God's words which quoted many stories from Bible and you rejected Bible which is the source of Quran.isn't funny? After Quran quoted from bible many stories bible became corrupted and useless, the director wanted like that!
This Gospel was written for Jewish of Palestine, to prove that Jesus was the promised Messiah, it was in wide circulation in the early church, and was circulated as an account written by Matthew from that ancient time the Gospel ascribed to Matthew for many reason of its contents which include lot of details, quotations and allusions to the Old Testament than other gospels or any other book of the New Testament. Also it's very systematically organized and as Matthew was tax collector were familiar by organizing and details, also they were other early sources for historical scientists of that time who attributed the Gospel to Matthew for many reasons belong to Jewish culuture like Irenaeus (130-200), Origen (185-254), Eusebius and many else,
Another strong evidence also that Apostle Matthew was preaching his Gospel in Syria, Media, Persia, Parthia, before being martyred in Ethiopia, at the end the contents of the Gospels speak about Jesus and his redemption to fulfill the prophecies about Messiah, there weren't any personal benefits from that to whoever authored Gospels,most of them killed by Romans for their preaching, they didn't have Army to protect them or married 123456789.. Wives under the label 'PROPHET"
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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YOUR Scholars say Matthew didn't write Matthew. Sorry Fresh..and they say the other 3 Gospels weren't written by those cat's either.
I rather tend to believe Allah and as a back-up YOUR scholars.
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005.044 YUSUFALI: It was We who revealed the law (to Moses): therein was guidance and light. By its standard have been judged the Jews, by the prophets who bowed (as in Islam) to Allah's will, by the rabbis and the doctors of law: for to them was entrusted the protection of Allah's book, and they were witnesses thereto: therefore fear not men, but fear me, and sell not my signs for a miserable price. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (no better than) Unbelievers.
005.046 YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
005.048 YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
Its plain as day! why cant you see it? Allah would not have said 'confirming' what was before it if the Books were no good anymore would he?? He would have KNOWN. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: YOUR Scholars say Matthew didn't write Matthew. Sorry Fresh..and they say the other 3 Gospels weren't written by those cat's either.
I rather tend to believe Allah and as a back-up YOUR scholars.
what believe you are talking about? you believe that Allah protect his revealtion but left his previous words Torah & Injeel to be changed.
you believe that Jesus the word of God was the awaited Messiah which Jews aren't waiting prophet after him but you believe there is a prophet after Messiah.
you believe that Bible corrupted while Quran that you follow quoted many stories from Bible.
you believe that God spoke to Moses from a tree but unable to believe that God was able to speak through human.
you believe that an angel was coming to Muhammed for 23 years revealed sentences after sentences in every occasion but can't believe that these 23 years were taken to author Quran.
you believe that Hadith of Bukhari and his followers have the credit like Quran but can't believe Gospels have a credit because you believe its from men not from God.
you believe that angel Gabriel was incarnating to p.Muhammed in human flesh as sura 19:17 but can't believe that God who created the angel Gabriel able to incarnates like him.
what a believe you are talking about my friend.
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Jabir Bin ‘Abdullah narrated that when Umar came to Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.), he said: “We hear the narration from the Jews, which sounds pleasing to us, so should we not write some of them?” Whereupon he (s.a.w.) said: “Do you want to be baffled as the Jews and the Christians were baffled? I have brought to you (guidance) bright and pure and if Moses were alive now there would have been no alternative left for him but to follow me.” (Tirmidhi 177)
Jabir Bin ‘Abdullah narrated that Umar Bin al-Khattab brought to Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) a copy of the Torah and said: “Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.), this is a copy of the Torah.” He (Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) kept quiet and he (Umar) began to read it. The (color) of the face of Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) underwent a change. Abu Bakr said, “Would that your mother mourns you, don’t you see the face of Allah’s Messenger?” Umar saw the face of Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) and said, “I seek refuge with Allah from the wrath of Allah and the wrath of His Messenger (s.a.w.). We are well pleased with Allah as Rabb, with Islam as religion, and with Muhammad (s.a.w.) as Prophet.” Whereupon Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) said: “By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, even if Moses were to appear before you and you were to follow him, leaving me aside, you would certainly stray into error. If (Moses) were alive (now), and he found my prophethood, he would have definitely followed me.” (Tirmidhi 194, Darimi and Mishkat 1/20)
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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QUOTE]You kaffireen never take a break..typical shayateen without a doubt.
Is Undercover still your friend..he dropped you like hot potatoe..LOL.. [/QB][/QUOTE]
saytan said:
Koran sura 47: Muhammad Of Madina
In the name of the merciful and compassionate God.
4 And when ye meet those who misbelieve then striking off heads until ye have massacred them, and bind fast the bonds! 5 Then either a free grant (of liberty) or a ransom until the war shall have laid down its burdens. That! But if God please He would conquer them-but (it is) that He may try some of you by the others. And those who are slain in God’s cause, their works shall not go wrong; 6 He will guide them and set right their mind; 7 and will make them enter into Paradise which He has told them of. 8 O ye who believe! if ye help God, He will help you, and will make firm your footsteps.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Jabir Bin ‘Abdullah narrated that when Umar came to Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.), he said: “We hear the narration from the Jews, which sounds pleasing to us, so should we not write some of them?” Whereupon he (s.a.w.) said: “Do you want to be baffled as the Jews and the Christians were baffled? I have brought to you (guidance) bright and pure and if Moses were alive now there would have been no alternative left for him but to follow me.” (Tirmidhi 177)
Jabir Bin ‘Abdullah narrated that Umar Bin al-Khattab brought to Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) a copy of the Torah and said: “Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.), this is a copy of the Torah.” He (Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) kept quiet and he (Umar) began to read it. The (color) of the face of Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) underwent a change. Abu Bakr said, “Would that your mother mourns you, don’t you see the face of Allah’s Messenger?” Umar saw the face of Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) and said, “I seek refuge with Allah from the wrath of Allah and the wrath of His Messenger (s.a.w.). We are well pleased with Allah as Rabb, with Islam as religion, and with Muhammad (s.a.w.) as Prophet.” Whereupon Allah’s Messenger (s.a.w.) said: “By Him in Whose hand is the life of Muhammad, even if Moses were to appear before you and you were to follow him, leaving me aside, you would certainly stray into error. If (Moses) were alive (now), and he found my prophethood, he would have definitely followed me.” (Tirmidhi 194, Darimi and Mishkat 1/20)
You are quoting hadith again to refute Quran!
The Quran tells you that 'we make no distinction amongst them' (all the prophets) it tells you He sent the Torah and the Gospel and you expect anyone to believe that Muhammed, a prophet of God, would have said the above?? You expect people to believe that Muhammed would have said following Moses was the wrong way???????? ALL prophets of God followed the same religion, Islam, and you say Moses didnt?? You really think he thought it was a different religion when Allah clearly tells you its not?
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Undercover wrote:
quote:In the first four centuries after Muhammad (600 - 1000 AD) no Muslim theologian seriously contended that the Gospel texts were not authentic. They might accuse Christians of giving a wrong interpretation to the words; they would not dispute the words themselves. As studies of Muslim apologetics have shown it was only with Ibn-Khazem who died at Cordoba in 1064, that the charge of falsification was born.
Allah actually exposed them (the Jews and Christians)in the Quran way before Ibn Khazem, for changing the books..listen very carefully UNDERCOVER!
Allah says (translated): "Woe to them who write their books with their own hand and then say, "This is from Allah." to purchase with it a little price! Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn thereby." Sura 2:79
Allah busted you guys from the jump! (Slang talk) Sorry. He didn't even way until the death of the Prophet Muhammad (SAW).
This seems to imply Biblical corruption until we look at its original context:
"Can you (O men of faith) still earnestly desire that they (the Jews) will believe in you? And verily a party (fariq) among them hear the Word of God, then they pervert it knowingly after they have understood it. And when they meet the believers they say, ‘We believe,’ but when they meet each other in private they say, ‘Why do you tell them what God has revealed to you (in the Torah), that they may engage you in argument about it before their God? What do you not understand?’ Do they not know that God knows what they conceal and what they make public? Among them are unlettered folk who know the Scripture not except from hearsay. THEY BUT GUESS." S. 2:75-78
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Where are the books or ahadeeth of the companions who were with Jesus (PBUH) when he was alive?
This is what Muslims call kufr and shikr:
quote:Christ was alive and sovereignly sustaining the universe along with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Shirk means associating partners to God. Muslims claim God has no partners, but in reality they associate Muhammad as God’s partner. The Quran is full of injunctions telling the believers to love Allah and his messenger, obey Allah and his messenger, loot and bring a fifth of the spoils for Allah and his messenger, etc. Muhammad even claimed that in the Day of Judgment he will sit next to Allah interceding on behalf of the believers. In other words he would act as a counselor to Allah advising the almighty, how to do his job, whom to punish and whom to reward.
Can a person believe in God and not in Muhammad? According to Muhammad such person is still a kafir. Therefore it is clear that despite Muhammad’s claim he actually elevated himself to the rank of the partner of God to such an extent that even the belief in God without the belief in his partner is not accepted.
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