posted
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament:
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.
Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples:
"The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach." (Matthew 23:1-3)"
We clearly see in these verses that Jesus peace be upon him did not prohibit for the Old Testament to be followed, but only warned his followers to not follow it the way the current religious leaders of the Law (the Jewish Rabies) were following it.
Where does the scriptures say not to follow the OT? Today we have Christians telling us they are not under the LAW of Moses..Jesus (according to them in their books)didn't say that. He says different.
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003.003 YUSUFALI: It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong).
Jesus said this: 003.050 YUSUFALI: "'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me. PICKTHAL: And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.
Allah tells Muhammed this: 003.095 YUSUFALI: Say: "Allah speaketh the Truth: follow the religion of Abraham, the sane in faith; he was not of the Pagans."
This says He is confirming what was sent before Quran: 005.048 YUSUFALI: To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what Allah hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If Allah had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to Allah; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;
Allah is saying if only they had stuck to it: 005.066 YUSUFALI: If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course: but many of them follow a course that is evil.
This is to everyone, this mentions the torah, the gospel AND Quran. ALL THE REVELATION FROM YOUR LORD: 005.068 YUSUFALI: Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.
This says prophet Muhammed was a prophet and we should all accept that as we do the others. 007.157 YUSUFALI: "Those who follow the messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures),- in the law and the Gospel;- for he commands them what is just and forbids them what is evil; he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure); He releases them from their heavy burdens and from the yokes that are upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."
ta-da!! 009.111 YUSUFALI: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme.
so we should ALL be following ALL the Books
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Genesis 19:30-38 Yep..go right ahead and follow the books of the Christians Dear Ayisha!..LOL
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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So Ayisha follows all the books? And does this also mean she also believes that Jesus is the Son of God and essentially God also (estaqfer allah il3atheem).
Or does she simply pick and chooses what she wants from the old and new testaments?
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: So Ayisha follows all the books? And does this also mean she also believes that Jesus is the Son of God and essentially God also (estaqfer allah il3atheem).
Or does she simply pick and chooses what she wants from the old and new testaments?
actually I am confused about Ayisha. first I thought she is a muslim , then I found out she reject the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH, later I found out she believe the Old Testament and she defend it. she believes that the prophets of Allah PBUT are sinners, like prophet Dawud PBUH (David) is a murder and an adulterer as the OT say. I don't know what to think anymore about her Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament:
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
Fulfill: to complete a promise or a prophecy or a prediction. The Old Covenant is to the New Covenant what promise is to fulfillment. The Old Testament contained types and shadows, which find their full meaning and substance in Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment in his very being and in his coming to earth.
First, Jesus fulfills the moral law. This is the foundation of the Old Testament. It demanded that the people of God keep of the commands, but could they? Even the most devout may have been good, but they were not good enough. However, Christ in his sinless life fulfills all of the demands because he walked in perfect love. One day, an expert in the law sought to trap Jesus, asking him what the greatest commandment was. Jesus replied:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments (Matt. 22:37-40).
Jesus fulfilled both of them perfectly. Now we ask for His Spirit so we can do the same, always depending on his love and mercy when we fail.
posted
The Old Testament is not the law for the church.
1. The Old Testament law was given to a specific group of people, the Jews, and was never said to have been given to anyone else, Christians included. God said to Moses, "...I have made a covenant with thee, and with Israel" (Exodus 34:27). The "children of Israel" were "to observe the sabbath throughout their generations" as a sign between "me (God) and the children of Israel forever" (Ex. 31:16-17). God made the Mosaic covenant with the Jews of Moses' day, not with others (Deuteronomy 5:1-3; Nehemiah 9:13-14)
2. The Old Testament law was only temporary and was, consequently, to come to an end. Jeremiah foretold this fact and the Hebrew writer declared its fulfillment (Jer. 31:31-34; Heb. 8:6-13). God indicated that a new covenant, different from the covenant through Moses, was to be given; the Hebrew writer set forth its accomplishment. He then explained that in his day the old was "ready to vanish away" (Heb. 8:13) and that indeed "there is made of necessity a change of the law" (Heb. 7:12).
3. The Old Testament law was nailed to the cross of Christ and thereby was brought to an end as a law to guide God's people. Paul declared that Christians are "dead to the law by the body of Christ" and that this law was the law which said, "Thou shalt not covet", i.e. the ten commandments law (Romans 7:4,7). Elsewhere, Paul indicated that the veil which was "untaken away in the reading of the Old Testament ... is done away in Christ," the reason being it was "done away" (2 Corinthians 3:14,11). Christ "abolished in his flesh ... the law of commandments by the cross" (Ephesians 2:15-16). In fact, he was said to have removed the "handwriting of ordinances by nailing it to his cross" (Colossians 2:14).
The result is, then, that the Old Testament as a law for God's people was removed by the death of Christ. Christians, therefore, are not to observe the Old Testament as the law for God's service today.
II. The Old Testament, though not the regulative will of God today, is still of much practical value for the Christian.
Two valuable passages on the usefulness of the Old Testament are Romans 15:4 and I Cor. 10:11. These verses show that the Old Testament has value for our "learning," "admonition," and "patience and comfort."
The Old Testament, is not regarded as the Law of God's people today since as a law it served its purpose, was fulfilled, and removed from authoritativeness by the death of Christ. The Old Testament, however, should be treasured as an inspired book from God which supplies means of our learning, admonition, patience and comfort.
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Jesus orders Christians to follow the Law of Moses in the Old Testament:
"Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)"
Fulfill: to complete a promise or a prophecy or a prediction. The Old Covenant is to the New Covenant what promise is to fulfillment. The Old Testament contained types and shadows, which find their full meaning and substance in Christ. Jesus is the fulfillment in his very being and in his coming to earth.
First, Jesus fulfills the moral law. This is the foundation of the Old Testament. It demanded that the people of God keep of the commands, but could they? Even the most devout may have been good, but they were not good enough. However, Christ in his sinless life fulfills all of the demands because he walked in perfect love. One day, an expert in the law sought to trap Jesus, asking him what the greatest commandment was. Jesus replied:
"Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments (Matt. 22:37-40).
Jesus fulfilled both of them perfectly. Now we ask for His Spirit so we can do the same, always depending on his love and mercy when we fail.
quote: "Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind." This is the first and greatest commandment. And the second is like it: "Love your neighbor as yourself." All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments (Matt. 22:37-40).
But the above were written and inspired by mere men and doesn't the numerical order of importance contradict the 'Ten Commandments' numerical order?
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: So Ayisha follows all the books? And does this also mean she also believes that Jesus is the Son of God and essentially God also (estaqfer allah il3atheem).
Or does she simply pick and chooses what she wants from the old and new testaments?
No exiled of course she doesnt because that is not IN the Gospel either. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Jesus in the Bible never said the exact three words, "I am God". But Jesus also never said the exact four words, "I am a prophet" or the exact four words "I am a man," but we know he was both a prophet and a man. It is not necessary for Jesus to say the exact phrase "I am a man" for us to know that he was a man.
When Moses was up at the Mount speaking to God, Moses asked God what his name was. God said, "I AM WHO I AM”; and He said, “Thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, ‘I AM has sent me to you,’” (Exodus 3:14). In John 8:58 Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was born, I AM.” Right after this the Jews pick up stones to throw at him. Later, in John 10:30-33 Jesus claimed to be one with the Father and the Jews wanted to stone him again because they said to Jesus, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God." Jesus had claimed the divine name for his own in the Jews wanted to kill him for it. Therefore, from Jesus' own mouth we see that he was claiming to be God.
Now please understand that anyone can say the words "I am" and it does not mean that he is claiming to be God. Someone could say, "I am over here." That is not claiming the divine name. Likewise, someone could say, "I am hungry," or "I am sick." Neither example is claiming divinity because the use of term "I am" in context clearly shows us that is not what is occurring. But, in John 8:58 when Jesus said "before Abraham was born, I am," the Jews knew exactly what he was saying. Notice that he says before Abraham was born (using the past tense) and then he switches to the present tense when he says "I am." Jesus switches tenses of the verbs on purpose so that when he does so in the context of referencing Abraham, Jesus is clearly drawing the Jews' attention to the Old Testament Scriptures and then using a present tense form of the verb "to be" by saying "I AM". Someone who says "I am hungry" is not drawing attention to the Old Testament Scriptures for context. Jesus was clearly causing the Jews to reflect upon the divine name "I am" that Jesus used for himself. We know that they understood this because as is said above, they said, "You, being a man, make yourself out to be God," (John 10:33).
The issue is what did Jesus say in the context and culture of the time in which he spoke. Finally, we know that Jesus is God in flesh because the Bible tells us so.
* John 1:1,14, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God...14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." * John 20:28-29, "Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!" 29 Jesus said to him, "Because you have seen Me, have you believed? Blessed are they who did not see, and yet believed." * Heb. 1:8, "But of the Son He says, 'Thy throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the righteous scepter is the scepter of His kingdom.'"
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When Muhammad linked the name of Allah to the religious histories of Judaism and Christianity, this was a way to claim them for Islam. In the light of later events, the claim that Islam was the original religion, and that all preceding prophets were Muslims, can be regarded as an attempt to appropriate the histories of other religions for Islam. The effect is to rob Christianity and Judaism of their own histories.
Consider that many Biblical sites, such as the tombs of the Hebrew Patriarchs and the Temple Mount, are claimed by Islam as Muslim sites, not Jewish or Christian ones. After all, the Qur’an tells us that Abraham ‘was a Muslim’. Under Islamic rule all Jews and Christians were banned from such sites.
There is a fundamental difference between Christian attitudes to the Jewish scriptures and Islamic attitudes to the Bible. Christians accept the Hebrew scriptures. They were the scriptures of Jesus and the apostles. They were the scriptures of the early church. The whole of Christian belief and practice rests upon them. Core Christian concepts such as ‘Messiah’ (Greek ‘Christos’), ‘Spirit of God’, ‘Kingdom of God’ and ‘salvation’ are deeply rooted in the Hebrew Biblical traditions.
We note also that Christian seminaries devote considerable effort to studying the Hebrew scriptures. This is an integral part of training for Christian ministry. The Hebrew scriptures are read (in translation) every Sunday in many churches all around the world.
In contrast Islam’s treatment of the Bible is one of complete disregard. Although it purports to ‘verify’ all earlier prophetic revelation, the Qur’an is oblivious to the real contents of the Bible. The claim that Christians and Jews deliberately corrupted their scriptures is made without evidence, and this only serves to cover up the Qur’an’s historical inadequacies. Muslim scholars rarely have an informed understanding of the Bible or of biblical theology and so remain ignorant of these realities.
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: actually I am confused about Ayisha. first I thought she is a muslim , then I found out she reject the Sunnah of the Prophet PBUH,
Mr Egypt dont be confused about me, its really very simple, I am looking for TRUTH.
I do not reject the sunnah (way) of God, which is also the sunnah (way) of each prophet. I serioulsy question the validity, authenticity and necessity of hadith after being warned in Quran and even moreso after actually looking at what the Jews DID do.
quote: later I found out she believe the Old Testament and she defend it.
009.111 YUSUFALI: Allah hath purchased of the believers their persons and their goods; for theirs (in return) is the garden (of Paradise): they fight in His cause, and slay and are slain: a promise binding on Him in truth, through the Law, the Gospel, and the Qur'an: and who is more faithful to his covenant than Allah? then rejoice in the bargain which ye have concluded: that is the achievement supreme. 002.062 YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
quote:she believes that the prophets of Allah PBUT are sinners, like prophet Dawud PBUH (David) is a murder and an adulterer as the OT say.
This verse is reference to Moses killing a man. It is in the Torah and Quran confirms Moses killed a man. 020.040 YUSUFALI: "Behold! thy sister goeth forth and saith, 'shall I show you one who will nurse and rear the (child)?' So We brought thee back to thy mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve. Then thou didst slay a man, but We saved thee from trouble, and We tried thee in various ways. Then didst thou tarry a number of years with the people of Midian. Then didst thou come hither as ordained, O Moses!
If your mind was not so closed up to what Quran is telling you you might be able to see it.
quote:I don't know what to think anymore about her
makes no difference to me what you think about me Mr Egypt. As i said I am looking for the Truth and here was a good place to bounce things off and got me to actually looking at things, its been a little like having a jigsaw with bits missing, now im beginning to see a bigger picture as i am collecting more pieces and finding the pieces I did have were part of another jigsaw.
So please dont be concerned about me, and does it immediately turn me into an object of hate and ridicule if you decided I dont qualify as a Muslim? I am trying to understand Gods word, be careful before you mock me for that.
I have put forward some very good points but it seems when you cant 'understand' how to 'debate' with me about them you get personal.
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: So Ayisha follows all the books? And does this also mean she also believes that Jesus is the Son of God and essentially God also (estaqfer allah il3atheem).
Or does she simply pick and chooses what she wants from the old and new testaments?
No exiled of course she doesnt because that is not IN the Gospel either.
I really don't know what to say. The verses below are blasphemous as far as the Quran is concerned.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us: that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him
2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
-------------------------------------------------------- Quran
YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 112.002 YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 112.003 YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 112.004 YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
4:171 YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
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quote: Originally posted by Ayisha: YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
just so you know , this verse was abrogated by this verse: 003.085 YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
quote:This verse is reference to Moses killing a man. It is in the Torah and Quran confirms Moses killed a man. 020.040 YUSUFALI: "Behold! thy sister goeth forth and saith, 'shall I show you one who will nurse and rear the (child)?' So We brought thee back to thy mother, that her eye might be cooled and she should not grieve. Then thou didst slay a man, but We saved thee from trouble, and We tried thee in various ways. Then didst thou tarry a number of years with the people of Midian. Then didst thou come hither as ordained, O Moses!
If your mind was not so closed up to what Quran is telling you you might be able to see it.
so you actually confirm that you believe the stories of the Prophets in the OT, David PBUH being a murder and an adulterer, Solomon PBUH being an idol worshipper and died as so, Aaron PBUH being a calf maker and worshipper as well and Lot PBUH had sex with his daughters etc. what a perfect choice of God's Prophets !!!
you are comparing David PBUH killing someone with Moses PBUH killing someone too. Did you even read the story of Moses from the quran about this accident ? If not, here it is:
028.015 PICKTHAL: And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies. So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.
so it is clear that Moses PBUH did not plot to kill that man. Moses killed this man by accident. he killed the Egyptian unintentionally when he went to aid his brother Israelite in the fight. so this can't be compared to what you believe about prophet David PBUH that he intentionally killed Uriah's husband to sleep with her.
by the way Ayisha, I want you to compare the Quranic story of Moses PBUH and the biblical story of the same event and answer the question below after reading:
“He went out to his brethren to see how they were being burdened, and saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew. So he looked this way and that, and, when he saw that nobody was around, killed the Egyptian and buried him in the sand.” (Exodus 2:11-12)
This account shows that his action, though provoked by what he had seen, had an element of premeditation.
so Did Moses killed the Egyptian deliberately as the torah say or by accident as the Quran say ? which book should we believe ?
quote:I have put forward some very good points but it seems when you cant 'understand' how to 'debate' with me about them you get personal.
I don't get personal with you at all and I never mocked you Ayisha, I am only trying to show you the Truth that you are looking for and Allah Almusta'an
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Muslims claim that stories of Noah getting drunk, Lot sleeping with his daughters, or David committing adultery etc., is evidence that the Holy Bible has been tampered with.
However both the Quran and Islamic traditions also present prophets in a less than positive light. It may surprise you to read that early Muslim sources confirm such stories as David’s act of adultery etc.
For instance, both the Quran and the Traditions acknowledge that Abraham lied:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Abraham did not tell a lie except on three occasions. Twice for the Sake of Allah when he said, "I am sick," and he said, "(I have not done this but) the big idol has done it." The (third was) that while Abraham and Sarah (his wife) were going (on a journey) they passed by (the territory of) a tyrant. Someone said to the tyrant, "This man (i.e. Abraham) is accompanied by a very charming lady." So, he sent for Abraham and asked him about Sarah saying, "Who is this lady?" Abraham said, "She is my sister." Abraham went to Sarah and said, "O Sarah! There are no believers on the surface of the earth except you and I. This man asked me about you and I have told him that you are my sister, so don't contradict my statement." The tyrant then called Sarah and when she went to him, he tried to take hold of her with his hand, but (his hand got stiff and) he was confounded. He asked Sarah. "Pray to Allah for me, and I shall not harm you." So Sarah asked Allah to cure him and he got cured. He tried to take hold of her for the second time, but (his hand got as stiff as or stiffer than before and) was more confounded. He again requested Sarah, "Pray to Allah for me, and I will not harm you." Sarah asked Allah again and he became all right. He then called one of his guards (who had brought her) and said, "You have not brought me a human being but have brought me a devil." The tyrant then gave Hajar as a girl-servant to Sarah. Sarah came back (to Abraham) while he was praying. Abraham, gesturing with his hand, asked, "What has happened?" She replied, "Allah has spoiled the evil plot of the infidel (or immoral person) and gave me Hajar for service." (Abu Huraira then addressed his listeners saying, "That (Hajar) was your mother, O Bani Ma-is-Sama (i.e. the Arabs, the descendants of Ishmael, Hajar's son)." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 578)
The Ahadith also state that Abraham doubted God:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
Allah's Apostle said, "We are more liable to be in doubt than Abraham when he said, ‘My Lord! Show me how You give life to the dead.’ He (i.e. Allah) said: ‘Don't you believe then?’ He (i.e. Abraham) said: ‘Yes, but (I ask) in order to be stronger in Faith.’ (2.260) And may Allah send His Mercy on Lot! He wished to have a powerful support. If I were to stay in prison for such a long time as Joseph did I would have accepted the offer (of freedom without insisting on having my guiltlessness declared)." (Sahih al-Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 55, Number 591)
Another character that is presented in a not so favorable light is Joseph:
And she, in whose house he was, asked of him an evil act. She bolted the doors and said: Come! He said: I seek refuge in Allah! Lo! he is my lord, who hath treated me honourably. Lo! wrong-doers never prosper. She verily desired him, and he would have desired her if it had not been that he saw the argument of his Lord. Thus it was, that We might ward off from him evil and lewdness. Lo! he was of Our chosen slaves. S. 12:23-24 Pickthall
The Quran says that Joseph would have desired Potiphar’s wife and as such would have been guilty of adulterous inclinations. The Holy Bible disagrees with the Quran and exonerates Joseph from such slander:
"Now Joseph was well-built and handsome, and after a while his master's wife took notice of Joseph and said, ‘Come to bed with me!’ But he refused. ‘With me in charge,’ he told her, ‘my master does not concern himself with anything in the house; everything he owns he has entrusted to my care. No one is greater in this house than I am. My master has withheld nothing from me except you, because you are his wife. How then could I do such a wicked thing and sin against God?’ And though she spoke to Joseph day after day, he refused to go to bed with her or even be with her." Genesis 39:6b-10
The Quran, in agreement with the Holy Bible, states that Lot tried to protect his guests by telling the people to take his daughters and have their way with them:
And when Our messengers came unto Lot, he was distressed and knew not how to protect them. He said: This is a distressful day. And his people came unto him, running towards him - and before then they used to commit abominations - He said: O my people! Here are my daughters! They are purer for you. Beware of Allah, and degrade me not in (the person of) my guests. Is there not among you any upright man? They said: Well thou knowest that we have no right to thy daughters, and well thou knowest what we want. S. 11:77-79 Pickthall
And the people of the city came, rejoicing at the news (of new arrivals). He said: Lo! they are my guests. Affront me not! And keep your duty to Allah, and shame me not! They said; Have we not forbidden you from (entertaining) anyone? He said: Here are my daughters, if ye must be doing (so). S. 15:67-71 Pickthall[/i]
Is it not the duty of a father to protect the health, life and honor of his children — if necessary with his own life? Yet here we see Lot offering his virgin daughters to be raped by evil men. Interestingly the Holy Bible also reports this story (cf. Genesis 19:1-9). Yet, amazingly, Muslims say nothing of it. It is obvious why they would not, since this same story also appears in their book! This demonstrates that the Muslim criticism against the Holy Bible is nothing more than a smokescreen in all of these instances, since if the same stories appeared in the Quran they would have never brought up the issue. It exposes the hypocrisy of these Muslim attacks on the Holy Bible since the same Muslims would never accept that this particular story disqualifies the Quran as being from God.
Another example is the story of David and Bathsheba. We find allusions to this event in the Quran:
Has the Story of the Disputants reached thee? Behold, they climbed over the wall of the private chamber; When they entered the presence of David, and he was terrified of them, they said: "Fear not: we are two disputants, one of whom has wronged the other: Decide now between us with truth, and treat us not with injustice, but guide us to the even Path. This man is my brother: He has nine and ninety ewes, and I have (but) one: Yet he says, 'commit her to my care,' and is (moreover) harsh to me in speech." (David) said: "He has undoubtedly wronged thee in demanding thy (single) ewe to be added to his (flock of) ewes: truly many are the partners (in business) who wrong each other: Not so do those who believe and work deeds of righteousness, and how few are they?"… and David gathered that We had tried him: he asked forgiveness of his Lord, fell down, bowing (in prostration), and turned (to Allah in repentance) ... To David We gave Solomon (for a son),- How excellent in Our service! Ever did he turn (to Us)! S. 38:21-24, 30
This story is reminiscent of 2 Samuel 12:1-14 where Nathan exposes David by telling him a parable of a rich man’s unjust act in taking his neighbor’s only ewe, yet with one MAJOR difference. The Quran turns Nathan’s parable into an actual historical event! This is just one more piece of evidence showing how the author of the Quran doesn’t really have a sense of what is historical: http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html#external http://answering-islam.org/Quran/Contra/index.html#histcomp
Obviously, two people would think twice before breaking into the chamber of the king to resolve an issue, especially when they are two disputants! It is hard to imagine that the poor one could ever get the rich one to go to the king with him in the first place, even in a regular audience before the king, let alone breaking in illegally. In the real world, the one who suffered the loss/damage may go to the king, present his case, and then the police or palace guards of the king may get the offender and drag him before the court. But it certainly doesn’t happen the way described in the Quran. Hence, a healthy dose of common sense would show that the biblical account is much more credible and realistic. Further aspects of this Quranic story are discussed in the article "I am ALL the Prophets".
Returning to our original point, it may surprise our readers to know that the early Muslim expositors had no problem admitting that this Quranic story refers to David and Bathsheba. The following is taken from Al-Tabari: click here to read morePosts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: So Ayisha follows all the books? And does this also mean she also believes that Jesus is the Son of God and essentially God also (estaqfer allah il3atheem).
Or does she simply pick and chooses what she wants from the old and new testaments?
No exiled of course she doesnt because that is not IN the Gospel either.
I really don't know what to say. The verses below are blasphemous as far as the Quran is concerned.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us: that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him
2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
-------------------------------------------------------- Quran
YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 112.002 YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 112.003 YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 112.004 YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
4:171 YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Exiled are you trying to prove to me that Jesus is God? using only begotten son wont do as there were a few of them. You have lost it.
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quote: Originally posted by Ayisha: YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur'an), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians and the Sabians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness, shall have their reward with their Lord; on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
just so you know , this verse was abrogated by this verse: 003.085 YUSUFALI: If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to Allah), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).
Why Mr Egypt? it is saying the same thing, there is no contradiction.
002.132 YUSUFALI: And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! Allah hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam." 002.133 YUSUFALI: Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy god and the god of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac,- the one (True) Allah: To Him we bow (in Islam)." 002.136 YUSUFALI: Say ye: "We believe in Allah, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to Allah (in Islam)." 003.019 YUSUFALI: The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will): Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account. 003.067 YUSUFALI: Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah. 003.084 YUSUFALI: Say: "We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them, and to Allah do we bow our will (in Islam)."
Theses verses and many others tell you that the religion given to ALL the prophets was ISLAM. You think He gave a different religion in those Books to those prophets Mr Egypt?? You think Allah gave another religion and then changed it?? It was ISLAM from the beginning, it started with ADAM and ended with Muhammed. There is no contradiction and no abrogation.
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Jesus was already God’s Son both before and during his earthly life and ministry:
"Neither have I learned wisdom, nor do I have the knowledge of the Holy One. Who has ascended into heaven and descended? Who has gathered the wind in His fists? Who has wrapped the waters in His garment? Who has established all the ends of the earth? What is His name or His son's name? Surely you know!" Proverbs 30:3-4
Nearly one thousand years later the NT authors give us the name of the Son mentioned by the inspired writer of Proverbs:
"No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man. As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up; so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:13-18
"But the righteousness based on faith speaks as follows: ‘DO NOT SAY IN YOUR HEART, "WHO WILL ASCEND INTO HEAVEN?"’ (that is, to bring Christ down), or ‘WHO WILL DESCEND INTO THE ABYSS?’ (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead)." Romans 10:6-7
"But to each one of us grace was given according to the measure of Christ's gift. Therefore it says, ‘WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN.’ (Now this expression, ‘He ascended,’ what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth? He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)" Ephesians 4:7-10
According to these passages, Jesus is the Son of God who both ascended to and descended from heaven. Therefore, the preceding citations make it rather clear that, even during the OT period, God had made known to people that he had a Son who existed with him, whom the NT later identifies as the Lord Jesus Christ.
And here are the other references indicating that Jesus was God’s Son even before his coming to the earth:
"For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, … He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things?" Romans 8:3, 32
"But when the fullness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, so that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons. Because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into our hearts, crying, ‘Abba! Father!’ Therefore you are no longer a slave, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God." Galatians 4:4-7
"God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power…" Hebrews 1:1-3a
The next set of passages demonstrates that Jesus was already God’s Son during his earthly sojourn:
"The next day he saw Jesus coming to him and said, ‘Behold, the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world! This is He on behalf of whom I said, "After me comes a Man who has a higher rank than I, for He existed before me." I did not recognize Him, but so that He might be manifested to Israel, I came baptizing in water.’ John testified saying, ‘I have seen the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven, and He remained upon Him. I did not recognize Him, but He who sent me to baptize in water said to me, "He upon whom you see the Spirit descending and remaining upon Him, this is the One who baptizes in the Holy Spirit." I myself have seen, and have testified that this IS the Son of God.’" John 1:29-34
[i]"So, because Jesus was doing these things on the Sabbath, the Jews persecuted him. Jesus said to them, ‘My Father is always at his work to this very day, and I, too, am working.’ For this reason the Jews tried all the harder to kill him; not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:16-18
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quote:Originally posted by Mr Egypt: so you actually confirm that you believe the stories of the Prophets in the OT, David PBUH being a murder and an adulterer, Solomon PBUH being an idol worshipper and died as so, Aaron PBUH being a calf maker and worshipper as well and Lot PBUH had sex with his daughters etc. what a perfect choice of God's Prophets !!!
We have already discussed Aaron Mr Egypt. As for the rest I will study ALL the Books and make my decision as at this moment I am unsure as to what I beleive! But I will study the Books AND that which is added to the old Books, not just dip in and take any translation of them as you have. So please at this point dont YOU decide what I believe, thank you.
quote:you are comparing David PBUH killing someone with Moses PBUH killing someone too. Did you even read the story of Moses from the quran about this accident ? If not, here it is:
028.015 PICKTHAL: And he entered the city at a time of carelessness of its folk, and he found therein two men fighting, one of his own caste, and the other of his enemies; and he who was of his caste asked him for help against him who was of his enemies. So Moses struck him with his fist and killed him. He said: This is of the devil's doing. Lo! he is an enemy, a mere misleader.
so it is clear that Moses PBUH did not plot to kill that man. Moses killed this man by accident. he killed the Egyptian unintentionally when he went to aid his brother Israelite in the fight. so this can't be compared to what you believe about prophet David PBUH that he intentionally killed Uriah's husband to sleep with her.
Moses KILLED a man, accidentally or whatever he killed a man. The accounts in both books are the same Mr Egypt, the only difference is one says he looked around. You cannot SEE it can you? As for David, did you actually READ it?? The womans husband was killed in battle, David himself didnt kill him so he could sleep with his wife as you have put it. After her husband was killed she married David. You twist the words as well as the Jews did Mr Egypt, but then you are well practiced at twisting the words in Quran too.
quote:by the way Ayisha, I want you to compare the Quranic story of Moses PBUH and the biblical story of the same event and answer the question below after reading:
“He went out to his brethren to see how they were being burdened, and saw an Egyptian beating a Hebrew. So he looked this way and that, and, when he saw that nobody was around, killed the Egyptian and buried him in the sand.” (Exodus 2:11-12)
This account shows that his action, though provoked by what he had seen, had an element of premeditation.
so Did Moses killed the Egyptian deliberately as the torah say or by accident as the Quran say ? which book should we believe ?
He killed him Mr Egypt. Now take out the words 'he looked this way and that' and how is it different?? These words may have been added to the account from the hadith of Moses, dont forget this is a historical story being told and NOT the words of God. There is no difference in the actual story in both books, Moses DID kill a man. Looking around before he did it is irrelevant to the message.
quote:I have put forward some very good points but it seems when you cant 'understand' how to 'debate' with me about them you get personal.
I don't get personal with you at all and I never mocked you Ayisha, I am only trying to show you the Truth that you are looking for and Allah Almusta'an [/QUOTE] Thank you Mr Egypt and I AM taking on board what you say but am also able to pull holes in it. You have been told this is truth and you are unable or unwilling to look at anything else. I have already BEEN another religion and had it 'changed' so I am being more careful than you as to what i accept as I found my new religion being changed in the same way. For this reason I am going back to have a better look at the whole thing. I believe that Allah sent all the Books as He tells me in Quran. You dont beleive Him. I beleive those Books need looking at to help ME find the Truth, YOU beleive you can discard them as false even though Quran confirms the Biblical stories happened and those prophets were from God. You do not accept the changes that happened in Torah and Bible because of the additions from hadith yet you fully accept Quran NEEDS hadith, you are doing no different than was done before apart from you have a distinct 2 books. Give it another 100 years or less and you wont, the Hadith and Tafsir will be IN Quran as part of it.
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Christians do not believe that Jesus is the son of God in a physical sense. God forbid that he should take a wife! That would be blasphemy. However, they do believe that Jesus is the Son of God in a spiritual sense. Arabs, for example, are commonly known as "sons of the desert". Nobody would ever think that the desert would have given physical birth to the Arabs. No, the term "sons of the desert" has to be understood in a spiritual sense. Arabs know the desert in and out; they are one with it, that is why they are called "sons of the desert." In the same way the Quran calls a wayfarer a "son of the road", "ibn as sabeel" (Surah 2, Al Baqarah, verse 177) The Arabic word "ibn" is used in a figurative sense as opposed to "walad" which is used in a physical way.
Besides having many other titles, such as "Messiah" or " Son of man", Jesus calls himself "Son of God" because he knows Him in a profound way, he is one with Him in essence.
Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father..." Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father ... Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me?" (John 14:8-10)
Because God is so much greater than man, He chooses to express Himself in human terms so that we can understand Him. When Surah 22, Hajj, verse 61 says that Allah sees and hears, it does not mean He has ears and eyes. Rather He is expressing a spiritual truth in such a way that we can understand that He is All-knowing. Similarly, behind the title "Son of God" is a spiritual truth expressed in human terms.
The Bible calls a number of people "sons of God" but Jesus is addressed as such in a particular way:
For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:16)
The Greek word for "one and only son", "mono-genes", means literally, "one in kind, unique" and has sometimes been incorrectly translated into Enlish as "only begotten". This rendering is wrong because "Mono-genes" is also used in Hebrews 11:17 to describe Isaac as Abraham's "one and only son", namely the one who was promised by God to Abraham and his wife Sarah. (Genesis 15) Since Ishmael too was Abraham's son, but through his servant Hagar (Genesis 16), the term "one and only" distinguishes Isaac as being uinque in his kind but not as the only begotten.
Furthermore, the Hebrew word used to describe Isaac in the Old Testament story as "only son" in Genesis 22:2 is completely different from the word "begotten" used, for example, in Psalm 2:7:
I will proclaim the decree of the LORD: He said to me, "You are my Son; today I have become your Father (or, I have begotten you).
"In the ancient Near East the relationship between a great king and one of his subject kings, who ruled by his authority and owed him allegiance, was expressed....also by "father" and "son"." (N.I.V. Studybible, Zondervan Bible Publishers, U.S.A., 1985, footnote) Psalm 2:7 is applied to the relationship between God and Jesus in a filial not in a carnal sense in Acts 13:33 as having been a fulfilled prophecy through his resurrection.
Just as other people are called "one and only sons" in the Bible because of their uniqueness in some ways, Jesus too is called exclusively "one and only son of God." On a number of occasions he made statements to prove this fact:
All things have been committed to me by my Father. No one knows who the Son is except the Father, and no one knows who the Father is except the Son and those to whom the Son chooses to reveal him. (Luke 10:22)
Nobody else has ever used such language to speak about himself!
(For more examples see: John 5:22-23, Luke 20:9-19, Matthew 3:17)
Jesus, the Son of God, has come to show us what God is like:
No-one has seen God; but God's only Son, He who is nearest to the Father's heart, he has made him known. (John 1:18)
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: So Ayisha follows all the books? And does this also mean she also believes that Jesus is the Son of God and essentially God also (estaqfer allah il3atheem).
Or does she simply pick and chooses what she wants from the old and new testaments?
No exiled of course she doesnt because that is not IN the Gospel either.
John 3:16
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Exiled: So Ayisha follows all the books? And does this also mean she also believes that Jesus is the Son of God and essentially God also (estaqfer allah il3atheem).
Or does she simply pick and chooses what she wants from the old and new testaments?
No exiled of course she doesnt because that is not IN the Gospel either.
John 3:16
John 3;16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
at age 40 David is also a 'begotten' son Psalms 2:7 I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.
Adam was also son Luke 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God.
Israel was another first born Exodus 4:22 And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith the LORD, Israel is my son, even my firstborn
So based on the whole, I cannot take that verse you refer to to mean actual 'son'. So the Bible does not say Jesus is the Son of, or God himself.
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quote:John 3;16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Take out the words only and you might have a point..but John 3:16 says only..now what?
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Can we actually get the opinons from a "Christian" or "Christians".
Are there any "Christians" here who are going to defend their religion instead of Ayisha? Jesus Christ!
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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I have a point sands. The point is that in the translations we have now there are a number of 'sons' and more than one 'begotten' son so the translations from Hebrew are in error OR we are all 'sons and daughters' of God. You often tell me my translations of Quran are in error, the only one you have approved as being close is Khan's, who ADDS the tafsir and hadith into the readings making Quran, Tafsir and hadith into one Book.
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^^^ excuse me the sandman hasn't approve of any translations of the Quran.
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
The Hebrew Scriptures clearly teach that God has a begotten Son. The Old Testament reference can be found in Psalm 2:6-7, which states:
* “Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of Zion. (7) I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee.”
Though the Muslims are taught that this passage refers to King David, David was begotten of Jesse. Ruth 4:22 states, “And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.” In Psalm 2:7, the Hebrew word yalad is used, Strong’s 3205. This word refers to an actual begetting, bearing, birthing and siring. Therefore, this passage clearly teaches that the God of the Bible has an actual begotten Son. As fulfilled in the New Testament, Luke 1:30-32, 34-35 declares that He was born of a virgin:
“And the angel said unto her, Fear not, Mary: for thou hast found favour with God. (31) And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS. (32) He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David…(34) Then said Mary unto the angel, How shall this be, seeing I know not a man? (35) And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.”
When referring to the New Testament, Acts 13:33 cites Psalm 2:7 indicating that it was Jesus Christ, born of a virgin, who is the fulfillment of God’s begotten Son. Acts 13:33 attests: “God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.”
It is also significant to note that, in Acts 13:33, the Greek word gennao is used, Strong’s 1080. Regarding this word’s definition, it is the equivalent to the Hebrew word yalad. This word also refers to an actual begetting, bearing, birthing and siring.
Though both Old and New Testaments teach that God has a begotten Son, the Koran emphatically rejects Allah having a son. In the following Suras, Muhammad declares:
The Believers Sura 23.91 “Never did Allah take to Himself a son, and never was there with him any other god-- in that case would each god have certainly taken away what he created, and some of them would certainly have overpowered others; glory be to Allah above what they describe!”
The Distinction Sura 25.2 “He, Whose is the kingdom of the heavens and the earth, and Who did not take to Himself a son, and Who has no associate in the kingdom, and Who created everything, then ordained for it a measure.”
In direct opposition to the Koran, Jesus teaches in John 3:16-18 that He, as God’s only begotten Son, is the only way to eternal salvation and everlasting life. He also instructs that those who deny Him as the only begotten Son of God are doomed to destruction:
“For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. (17) For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. (18) He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.”
With respect to this passage, John 3:18 is just as important as John 3:16 when considering the teachings of Muhammad in the Koran. John 3:18 declares condemnation to those who do not believe “in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” Meanwhile, Muhammad teaches to reject God’s Son. Therefore, when considering the message of salvation in the Bible, the Islamic faith, through the guidance of a false instructor and prophet, teaches condemnation to all, not salvation to all!
Throughout the New Testament, the message that Muhammad rejects remains consistent. Jesus Himself continues to testify in John 14:6 and Matthew 10:32-33 the following:
* John 14:6 “…I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.” * Matthew 10:32-33 “Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven. (33) But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven.”
While the Holy Scriptures continue to stress that the only way to eternal salvation is through Jesus Christ, the only begotten Son of God, the Koran, through the written words of Mohammed, teaches that Allah will destroy anyone who believes that he has a son. The applicable Sura from the Koran and the written words of Mohammed follow:
The Immunity Sura 9.30 “And the Jews say: Uzair is the son of Allah; and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah; these are the words of their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved before; may Allah destroy them; how they are turned away!”
With respect to the begotten Son issue, Allah cannot be the God of the Bible. The Scriptures are blatantly clear that God has a begotten Son and that His Son is the only way to salvation. Meanwhile, the Koran teaches that Allah does not have a son and that those who believe that he does will be destroyed. Therefore, Allah is NOT the God of the Bible! SourcePosts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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“Then Jesus came to them and said, ‘All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit…” Matthew 28:18-19 NIV
“Jesus knew that the Father had put all things under his power, and that he had come from God and was returning to God;” John 13:3 NIV
“All things that the Father has are Mine…” John 16:15 NKJV
“And all Mine are yours, and yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them.” John 17:10 NKJV Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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Let me be clear so YOU don't twist my words up. The Mushin Khan's translations is by far the best English Translation in the market anyway! Meaning..If you're going to read one (English Translation) out of all the junk that is in the market Mushin Khan's translation is by far the the best.
Personally I don't like it with all of the words in brackets..and it makes it difficult for continuous reading.
So that's my opinon and I'm sticking with it.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Exiled: So Ayisha follows all the books? And does this also mean she also believes that Jesus is the Son of God and essentially God also (estaqfer allah il3atheem).
Or does she simply pick and chooses what she wants from the old and new testaments?
No exiled of course she doesnt because that is not IN the Gospel either.
I really don't know what to say. The verses below are blasphemous as far as the Quran is concerned.
John 10:30 I and the Father are one.
Colossians 2:9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form
Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh,
John 3:16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
1 John 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us: that God sent His only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through Him
2 Corinthians 13:14 May the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all.
Matthew 28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[a] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,
Isaiah 43:11 I, even I, am the LORD, and apart from me there is no savior.
-------------------------------------------------------- Quran
YUSUFALI: Say: He is Allah, the One and Only; 112.002 YUSUFALI: Allah, the Eternal, Absolute; 112.003 YUSUFALI: He begetteth not, nor is He begotten; 112.004 YUSUFALI: And there is none like unto Him.
4:171 YUSUFALI: O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs.
PICKTHAL: O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.
SHAKIR: O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only a messenger of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His messengers, and say not, Three. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one Allah; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.
Exiled are you trying to prove to me that Jesus is God? using only begotten son wont do as there were a few of them. You have lost it.
I simply pointed out that what is written (in this regard) in the bible is considered blasphemy according to Allah (swt). Allah(swt) states:{Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!} - take from 9:30 the full verse is posted below.
Do you agree it is blasphemous? Or do you believe Allah (swt) has a son after all you also follow the People of the book scriptures?
9:30
YUSUFALI: The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!
19:34-35 YUSUFALI: Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.
YUSUFALI: It is not befitting to (the majesty of) Allah that He should beget a son. Glory be to Him! when He determines a matter, He only says to it, "Be", and it is.
2:116 YUSUFALI: They say: "Allah hath begotten a son" :Glory be to Him.-Nay,{كلا} to Him belongs all that is in the heavens and on earth: everything renders worship to Him.
23:91 YUSUFALI: No son did Allah beget, nor is there any god along with Him: (if there were many gods), behold, each god would have taken away what he had created, and some would have lorded it over others! Glory to Allah! (He is free) from the (sort of) things they attribute to Him!
10:68 YUSUFALI: They say: "Allah hath begotten a son!" - Glory be to Him! He is self-sufficient! His are all things in the heavens and on earth! No warrant have ye for this! say ye about Allah what ye know not?
6:100-101 YUSUFALI: Yet they make the Jinns equals with Allah, though Allah did create the Jinns; and they falsely, having no knowledge, attribute to Him sons and daughters. Praise and glory be to Him! (for He is) above what they attribute to Him!
YUSUFALI: To Him is due the primal origin of the heavens and the earth: How can He have a son when He hath no consort? He created all things, and He hath full knowledge of all things.
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Do you agree it is blasphemous? Or do you believe Allah (swt) has a son after all you also follow the People of the book scriptures?
I have already answered this about 3 times, try reading what I write instead of looking for a quick bit to pounce on.
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-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Theses verses and many others tell you that the religion given to ALL the prophets was ISLAM. You think He gave a different religion in those Books to those prophets Mr Egypt?? You think Allah gave another religion and then changed it?? It was ISLAM from the beginning, it started with ADAM and ended with Muhammed. There is no contradiction and no abrogation.
I will agree with you for a minute here, you were christian as I think. why did you convert to islam then ? you could believe in Allah and the last day and work righteousness without converting. there is no point to convert as you understood the verses
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: As for David, did you actually READ it?? The womans husband was killed in battle, David himself didnt kill him so he could sleep with his wife as you have put it. After her husband was killed she married David. You twist the words as well as the Jews did Mr Egypt, but then you are well practiced at twisting the words in Quran too.
what David did ( which I don't believe he even did ) is actually what anyone would understand it to mean the way I described it. he had sex with the Uriah's wife and then killed him (doesn't have to mean he did it with his own hands) in order to be his woman after.
"One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, "Isn't this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?" Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. Then she went back home. The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, "I am pregnant."
"In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In it he wrote, "Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die."
does this mean he killed him or not ? if not, is this what you believe anyway ? that David had sex with Uriah's wife and ploted to kill her husband ? such an act would come from a Prophet of Allah ?
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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Mr Egypt in answer to your first post above: yes I was a 'Christian' but I have never believed in the doctrine of the trinity. I have never been one to have 'belief' 'forced' upon me. I was Church of England until I was about 10 years old but my family were not regular chuch goers as I remember. I think they too were 'disillusioned' by 'the Church' as an 'organized' religion, although they believed in ONE GOD and all the prophets, thats what I was brought up on. I was also brought up to know that a lot is lost in the Old Books through translation, so when I have read the Bible I have taken this into account. A bit like 'reading between the lines' if you understand that.
So why did I 'convert'. I found what I 'believed' in Quran thats why. What I 'believed' was not in the 'organized' Christian religion and I 'thought' it was in Islam, then I got to the 'organized' Islam.
I have taken a step back to see the bigger picture in front of me. I will not be 'told' what I have to believe to 'qualify' as a muslim. As you say I didnt 'need' to convert, I was already Muslim. I already believed in One God, all the prophets, Last Day etc.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Anyone who does not believe that Jesus was God incarnate (God in human form….fully God and fully human) is not, by definition, a Christian.
If you believe in Christ but reject His deity, you might have a very nice religion, but you cannot call it Christianity. Anyone who is a member of a christian sect that does not believe in the divinity of Jesus is a member of a cult.
I don't think that a person can repudiate the deity of Christ and call themselves a Christian because the notion of the deity of Christ-God becoming man, God in three persons, one essence- is an essential defining doctrine of the faith. In other words, if you reject an essential or defining doctrine then you cannot call yourself by the title that is defined by these doctrines.
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Undercover i will answer you as that was not a copy paste and it is a good question and the reason I put that I have never been one to have belief forced upon me.
I was brought up a non-practicing Protestant. Now being as i have not been to a Church service since age 10 or 11 I was taught belief is between me and Him by my mum. I was taught One God by my mum and I was taught 'manners' and right and wrong by my mum, ok dad helped But I was taught to open my eyes and 'look' and 'question' also. So as i was 'christened' in C of E, I was not forced to believe in the trinity. It has never made any sense to believe that Jesus Christ was any more than a Prophet and Messenger of God. So ok, I was not Christian in the sense of taking on the Nicene Creed.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
but you didn't answer my other question Ayisha about the Prophet David PBUH story in the bible Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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you are absolutely right Mr Egypt, I didnt answer it.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: you are absolutely right Mr Egypt, I didnt answer it.
so why you keep ignoring this question Ayisha ? is it because you don't believe this story about Prophet David and what he did and in the same time you are afraid to contradict yourself since you said you believe in the Bible ? Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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The Old Testament continually illustrates the serious consequences of sin and the judgment of God. Humanity is young and immature in the faith.
God delights when sinners are turned from their sin. Ezekiel makes this point. He does not rejoice in the death of the wicked, but He rejoices when sinners turn and repent and are converted to Him. This is a truth of God's word. God delights in this.
Paul wrote, “All have sinned” (Romans 3:23). In I Kings 8:46 Solomon included in his prayer, “There is no man that sinneth not.” David said in Psalm 143:2, “For in thy sight no man living is righteous,” and Isaiah cried, “Woe is me! for I am undone; because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips” (Isaiah 6:5).
The relations between Yahweh and Israel are regulated by the Sinai Covenant made with Moses and Israel. The remnant: God's holiness and justice led him to punish the sins of his people, but he would not wipe them out completely. His goal was not to destroy but to purify them. So he left a holy remnant, faithful to the Covenant, after the sinners had been destroyed.
This idea of the remnant is a central teaching of Isaiah. Isaiah predicts a new and glorious age which will come for Israel in the future. Isaiah taught that Jerusalem enjoyed special privileges from God, because Yahweh ruled from the Temple.
The well-known four servant songs are found in 42:1-4; 49:1-7; 50:4-9; 52:13-53:12. The last one is called the Song of the Suffering Servant. Many scholars think that the servant stands in a collective sense for the people of Israel, and in an individual sense for the Messiah. Some of the main themes in chs. 40-66 are the universalism of God's salvation; he is the creator of the world and directs world history, with special concern for Israel and Jerusalem. He will send a Messiah and has prepared a glorious future for those who remain faithful to him and keep his Covenant.
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posted
Psalm 51 is a Prayer-Psalm written by King David after he committed a terrible sin against God. David was heartsick and repentant over his sin and pleaded with God for his forgiveness. In all probability he lay prostrate on the ground when he prayed this prayer.
Psalm 51:1-13, 17
"Have mercy on me, O God, according to your unfailing love; according to your great compassion blot out my transgressions. Wash away all my iniquity and cleanse me from my sin. For I know my transgressions, and my sin is always before me. Against you, you only, have I sinned and done what is evil in your sight, so that you are proved right when you speak and justified when you judge. Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me. Surely you desire truth in the inner parts; you teach me wisdom in the inmost place. Cleanse me with hyssop, and I will be clean; wash me, and I will be whiter than snow. Let me hear joy and gladness; let the bones you have crushed rejoice. Hide your face from my sins and blot out all my iniquity. Create in me a pure heart, O God, and renew a steadfast spirit within me. Do not cast me from your presence or take your Holy Spirit from me. Restore to me the joy of your salvation and grant me a willing spirit, to sustain me. Then I will teach transgressors your ways, and sinners will turn back to you. (vs.17) The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit; a broken and contrite heart, O God, you will not despise.
The Consequences of David's Sin
In 2 Samuel 11, we read of the sins of David. In chapter 12, we read of the consequences. First notice why David sinned. David’s sin of adultery began because there was a day when he did not keep his heart. There was a day when he did not sing God’s praises, when he did not pray. And on that day, he ended up at the wrong place, at the wrong time. That’s the background. He saw, he lusted, and he acted. He took someone’s wife, sending her husband to be slain in battle, and then he felt good, successful, and happy. He thought he had done nothing wrong. For a short time, David felt no remorse, no sorrow, no guilt. When we stop keeping our heart, when we stop praying and praising, we can sin with impunity, or we just might keep up certain rituals of religious duties to convince ourselves and others that everything is fine.
David was blinded by the gravity of his sin of adultery. Were it not for a man of God, David may have gone on to his grave out of fellowship with God. But isn’t God wonderful? “And the Lord sent Nathan unto David” (2 Sam. 12:1). Consider it an act of God’s mercy when he sends a man of God to awaken you.
But because David had despised the law of the Lord, and the Lord himself, notice the list of consequences, the heavy baggage he had to pull the rest of his life:
1. The Sword Shall Never Depart from Thy House.
“Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife” (12:10).
Notice the word never. Is that a long time or is it longer than that? His children would suffer, his grandchildren would suffer, his great-grandchildren would suffer, and on and on forever! We read in some cases that the iniquity of the fathers shall be visited upon their children unto the third and fourth generation (Num. 14:18), but David’s suffering, because of his adultery, goes beyond the fourth generation. God, through the prophet, said that the sword would never leave his house.
2. Your Sin Shall Be Revealed.
“For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel , and before the sun” (2 Sam. 12:12).
Every Bible published speaks of this sin of David.
So the rest of David’s life consisted of two things: the harvesting of thorns and the sowing of good seeds.
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Thus, nowhere in the Bible, are we asked or encouraged to follow David's example. Muhammad on the other hand is the role model of a billion plus people. He made his Allah to praise him saying: “Indeed in the Messenger of Allah you have a good example to follow" (33:21) or that he is a “Mercy for all creation” (21:107) He was obviously none of the above. But since his benighted followers insist following his examples, the crimes that he committed are being repeated up to this day and innocent people are being victimized as we speak.
He said to be a good example to follow. But he wasn't. He instead followed the example of the ignorant people of his time. But because he said he is a good example, now the vices of those primitive people that he followed are being practiced by his brainless followers all over the world and those crimes are sanctioned and promulgated. They do that because they believe that Muhammad was a good example to follow. Yet some Muslims are telling us that he followed the bad examples of the very people whom he called “ignorant” and we should not blame him for that. Thanks to him that ignorance is now being spread throughout the world.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: you are absolutely right Mr Egypt, I didnt answer it.
so why you keep ignoring this question Ayisha ? is it because you don't believe this story about Prophet David and what he did and in the same time you are afraid to contradict yourself since you said you believe in the Bible ?
Isn't it funny when sands ignores a question you say nothing but when I ignore a question I am pushed to answer it?
I dont see any point in answering Mr Egypt, you and sands can continue to say what you like about Prophets of God, its you that will answer for it in the end. God said in the final part of the Message that He gave Torah Gospel and Quran, I will not disbelieve Him, you can if you like thats up to you. Its up to me to study those Books.
I do find it odd though that you and sands are finding these stories so odd, when you have been told by GOD about these Prophets in Quran ,and at the same time we have sands refuting anyone that disbelieves Aishas age of 6 when the prophet of 52 married her, as 'filthy claims' and basing that on Hadith! It is very 'enlightening' I have to say.
So we have
1. Biblical prophets have killed, commited incest and adultery over 4000 years ago, In a Book of God = disgusting behaviour for a Prophet, violently refuted as false
2.a) Muhammed killed also = Jihad b) Muhammed married a 6 year old when he was 52, from a book of MAN = admirable, he was the best, violently defended as age 6, any claim made that she was older is called 'filthy'
Mr Egypt, lakum deenukum wa liya deen. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Now you can bring up Lot being drunk having illicit sexual intercourse with his daughters, but at least Lots daughters were grown and had to get Lot drunk! Was the prophet drunk when he had sexual relations with his underaged wife Aisha? Lot didn't start a religion. So no one followed and glorified his sins. He has no specific group of followers. Therefore it is intellectually dishonest to compare him to Muhammad, the role model for a billion plus Muslims.
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