posted
More Incest Stories from the Holy Bible that Undercover, Freshsoda, Ayisha and Christians want us (Muslims) to believe in.
They want us to believe that it i.e the Holy Bible is the Word of God, we and our children should learn and benefit from these Holy Scriptures:
Genesis 19:32-38
19:29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when he overthrew the cities in the which Lot dwelt.
19:30 And Lot went up out of Zoar, and dwelt in the mountain, and his two daughters with him; for he feared to dwell in Zoar: and he dwelt in a cave, he and his two daughters.
19:31 And the firstborn said unto the younger, Our father is old, and there is not a man in the earth to come in unto us after the manner of all the earth:
19:32 Come, let us make our father drink wine, and we will lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:33 And they made their father drink wine that night: and the firstborn went in, and lay with her father; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:34 And it came to pass on the morrow, that the firstborn said unto the younger, Behold, I lay yesternight with my father: let us make him drink wine this night also; and go thou in, and lie with him, that we may preserve seed of our father.
19:35 And they made their father drink wine that night also: and the younger arose, and lay with him; and he perceived not when she lay down, nor when she arose.
19:36 Thus were both the daughters of Lot with child by their father.
19:37 And the first born bare a son, and called his name Moab: the same is the father of the Moabites unto this day.
19:38 And the younger, she also bare a son, and called his name Benammi: the same is the father of the children of Ammon unto this day.
Ayisha and others here wants us to read the Bible for it is God's word so that we can benefit from it.
So that we can benefit from incest stories about father getting drunk with their daughters and then the daughter having sex with them..WAIT..they also got pregnant as well.
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posted
yet you will defend quite violently the prophet Muhammed at 52 and aisha at age 6, Is that because she wasnt his daughter??
Look at Ancient Egyptian figures, they married their mothers, daughters, brothers etc, this is from those times, this is a long time ago. It does not mean you have to do it now but it happened then.
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posted
So Ayisha you believe that the Prophet Lot got drunk and slept with his two daughters and impregnated them?
Is that correct? Do I understand you correctly?
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
can you find anything abrogating that in Quran sands?? The rest of the story of Lot is confirmed isnt it?
It doesnt actually say that though does it, it says they got him drunk and went to him, not the way you imply. There is a subtle difference in them getting him drunk so he doesnt remember (as it says) and having sex with him, than him getting drunk and having sex with them, although the result is the same.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: can you find anything abrogating that in Quran sands?? The rest of the story of Lot is confirmed isnt it?
It doesnt actually say that though does it, it says they got him drunk and went to him, not the way you imply. There is a subtle difference in them getting him drunk so he doesnt remember (as it says) and having sex with him, than him getting drunk and having sex with them, although the result is the same.
I'm not sure what is your position Ayisha. Do you believe that, that incident too place? Is that your position Ayisha?
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posted
Sands, honestly sometimes I could slap you for being dilatory!
I see no reason to not believe it if its in God's Book. This is how many years ago? 3000? more even. As I explained above you only have to look at Egyptian History of how things were regarding incest, it was rife! Just as you see no wrong in the prophet and Aisha only 1400 years ago and thats not even IN God's Book!
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posted
The Quran in no way will EVER cast a Prophet of Allah in the manner that the Bible describes them. No way whatsoever. Prophets don't fornicate. Prophet don't sleep with whores, Prophets don't drink alcohol. Their characters are not that of wicked people. They came to show people how to live a righteous life, not to show them how to be more screwed up.
It is obvious you would follow someone who got drunk and slept with their daughters and had children with them out of incest. I am sure that never happened it is a lie against Allah and is Messengers. It is just ashame that you believe in them i.e. their lies.
This is my understanding of the Ambiya (may Allah be pleased with them all). There is a vast difference in the the characters of the Prophets in the bible verses those in the Quran.
But hey. You are entitled to believe in whatever you want, in any manner that you want. It is, as you say, "Your Soul".
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posted
according to the Bible Chronology we are talking 3930 years ago, things were presumably a little different then. Only 1400 years ago it was still ok to have concubines and marry 6 year olds so we are talking about 2500 years before that. How do you think Adam and Eve populated a world?
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: How do you think Adam and Eve populated a world? [/QB]
They had sex with each other. That topic should be on different thread BTW.
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posted
and had millions of babies together? a few thousand to start with then what? all the kids were brothers and sisters = incest.
Pharaohs have married their daughters and sisters and mothers. The revelation to tell you who you can and cant have wasnt around then, that came in Quran.
edit* If i find there was anything relating to who you can and cant have before Quran I will post it.
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posted
his was hir daughters' idea,because they didn't have men to sleep with, and to continue their lineage, they did that desperate decision.
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posted
NOWHERE IN THE BIBLE IS LOT CALLED A PROPHET. The fact that the Quran declares him a prophet does not mean Christians or Jews have to consider him a prophet as well. His image in the Holy Scriptures is rather ambiguous.
There are three points that need to be made which show the error of sand's comments.
Firstly, the Bible records what humans are like - and we are sinful. Lot sinned in many ways, one of them being that he failed to organise husbands for his daughters. This then led to his daughters sinning the way they did. However this account was not written for us to imitate; we are never told to imitate this type of behaviour, in fact we are commanded not to do it:
No one is to approach any close relative to have sexual relations. I am the LORD. (Leviticus 18:6)
Do not have sexual relations with both a woman and her daughter. Do not have sexual relations with either her son's daughter or her daughter's daughter; they are her close relatives. That is wickedness. (Leviticus 18:7)
This account of Lot and his daughters is given so that we can see the mercy and forgiveness of God. For even though Lot and his daughters sinned, God had mercy on them and saved them and made them into mighty nations.
The second error muslims make is when they criticise the story of Lot is that the Quran also contains such stories. Which do you think is the greatest sin: idolatry or incest? They are both serious, yet what does the Quran say about Abraham's father?
Recount to them the story of Abraham. He said to his father and to his people: "What is that which you worship?" They replied: "We worship idols and pray to them with all fervour." (Qur'an 26:69, Dawood)
Here we see the Quran record the practise of idolatry. It also records how Adam committed idolaty (7:189-192) and Aaron (4:163, 7:150-153). It even records how Muhammad was rebuked in this way. Does that mean that the Quran wants us to imitate these men and worship idols? Of course not. sands criticises the Bible for recording human sinfulness yet he says nothing when the Quran records equally serious sins.
Thirdly, sands is also critical of the Bible for recording the events of Judah's sexual relations with his daughter-in-law, Tamar (Genesis 38). This event happened after her husband had died.
The problem with sand's criticism is that Muhammad had sexual relations with his daughter-in-law too! This is a very well known event in Muhammad's life. Muhammad had an adopted son whose name was Zaid bin Muhammad. Zaid's wife was called Zainab. Muhammad expressed an interest in his son's wife and so Zaid offered to divorce her so that Muhammad could marry her. Initially Muhammad was hestitant but then he received a "word from God" which said it was okay. Therefore after Zaid divorced his wife Muhammad married her.
You (Muhammad) said to the man (Zaid) whom God and yourself have favoured: "Keep your wife and have fear of God". You sought to hide in your heart what God was to reveal. You were afraid of man, although it would have been more proper to fear God. And when Zayd divorced his wife, We gave her to you in marriage (Qur'an 33:37, Dawood)
Why is sands not critical of this and call this event incest or wife-swapping or legalized adultery? Zainab's relationship to Muhammad was exactly the same as Tamar's relationship to Judah - they were both daughter-in-laws.
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posted
Ayisha, I've posted a thread before to prove to you that what you think to be the Torah now can't be true and from the same source as the Quran, today after I've read this thread and read your answers to it, it is so sad to know the way you think. once again I will try to prove the point again that the Torah had been corrupted and it can't be as the same as Allah revealed. from the Story of Moses's brother ( Aaron ) and the Torah describing him as a calf worshipper to the Quran story about him being inoccent from this charge we only can come to one conclusion which is , the Torah isn't the same as God had revealed it.
here's the story of the Torah:
Exodus 32
1 When the people saw that Moses was so long in coming down from the mountain, they gathered around Aaron and said, "Come, make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him." 2 Aaron answered them, "Take off the gold earrings that your wives, your sons and your daughters are wearing, and bring them to me." 3 So all the people took off their earrings and brought them to Aaron. 4 He took what they handed him and made it into an idol cast in the shape of a calf, fashioning it with a tool. Then they said, "These are your gods, O Israel, who brought you up out of Egypt."
5 When Aaron saw this, he built an altar in front of the calf and announced, "Tomorrow there will be a festival to the LORD."
the story continue:
19 When Moses approached the camp and saw the calf and the dancing, his anger burned and he threw the tablets out of his hands, breaking them to pieces at the foot of the mountain. 20 And he took the calf they had made and burned it in the fire; then he ground it to powder, scattered it on the water and made the Israelites drink it.
21 He said to Aaron, "What did these people do to you, that you led them into such great sin?"
22 "Do not be angry, my lord," Aaron answered. "You know how prone these people are to evil. 23 They said to me, 'Make us gods who will go before us. As for this fellow Moses who brought us up out of Egypt, we don't know what has happened to him.' 24 So I told them, 'Whoever has any gold jewelry, take it off.' Then they gave me the gold, and I threw it into the fire, and out came this calf!"
so, from this story of the Torah we understand that Aaron was the one who made the calf and led people astray. now let's see what the Quran say about this story :
020.086 YUSUFALI: So Moses returned to his people in a state of indignation and sorrow. He said: "O my people! did not your Lord make a handsome promise to you? Did then the promise seem to you long (in coming)? Or did ye desire that Wrath should descend from your Lord on you, and so ye broke your promise to me?" 020.087 YUSUFALI: They said: "We broke not the promise to thee, as far as lay in our power: but we were made to carry the weight of the ornaments of the (whole) people, and we threw them (into the fire), and that was what the Samiri suggested. P.S: it wasn't Aaron suggestion as the Torah claim
020.088 YUSUFALI: "Then he brought out (of the fire) before the (people) the image of a calf: It seemed to low: so they said: This is your god, and the god of Moses, but (Moses) has forgotten!"
020.089 YUSUFALI: Could they not see that it could not return them a word (for answer), and that it had no power either to harm them or to do them good?
020.090 YUSUFALI: Aaron had already, before this said to them: "O my people! ye are being tested in this: for verily your Lord is (Allah) Most Gracious; so follow me and obey my command."
the verse here speaks of itself
020.091 YUSUFALI: They had said: "We will not abandon this cult, but we will devote ourselves to it until Moses returns to us." 020.092 YUSUFALI: (Moses) said: "O Aaron! what kept thee back, when thou sawest them going wrong, 020.093 YUSUFALI: "From following me? Didst thou then disobey my order?" 020.094 YUSUFALI: (Aaron) replied: "O son of my mother! Seize (me) not by my beard nor by (the hair of) my head! Truly I feared lest thou shouldst say, 'Thou has caused a division among the children of Israel, and thou didst not respect my word!'"
020.095 YUSUFALI: (Moses) said: "What then is thy case, O Samiri?" 020.096 YUSUFALI: He replied: "I saw what they saw not: so I took a handful (of dust) from the footprint of the Messenger, and threw it (into the calf): thus did my soul suggest to me."
so here's the confession of Samiri that he made the calf, not Aaron.
020.097 YUSUFALI: (Moses) said: "Get thee gone! but thy (punishment) in this life will be that thou wilt say, 'touch me not'; and moreover (for a future penalty) thou hast a promise that will not fail: Now look at thy god, of whom thou hast become a devoted worshipper: We will certainly (melt) it in a blazing fire and scatter it broadcast in the sea!"
now after the Quran refute the false charge against Moses's brother Aaron, I need to ask you this question , do you believe the Quran or the Torah ?
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
GOD had never said anything to us human all religion is man' made ...full stop Posts: 366 | From: some day | Registered: Dec 2007
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posted
Mr Egypt the story is in both Books, are you going to refute that they are from God as part of the Message just because a name is different in Arabic/English/Hebrew translations?
002.051 YUSUFALI: And remember We appointed forty nights for Moses, and in his absence ye took the calf (for worship), and ye did grievous wrong. 002.052 YUSUFALI: Even then We did forgive you; there was a chance for you to be grateful. 002.053 YUSUFALI: And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the Criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright.
002.054 YUSUFALI: And remember Moses said to his people: "O my people! Ye have indeed wronged yourselves by your worship of the calf: So turn (in repentance) to your Maker, and slay yourselves (the wrong-doers); that will be better for you in the sight of your Maker." Then He turned towards you (in forgiveness): For He is Oft-Returning, Most Merciful. 002.055 YUSUFALI: And remember ye said: "O Moses! We shall never believe in thee until we see Allah manifestly," but ye were dazed with thunder and lighting even as ye looked on. 002.059 YUSUFALI: But the transgressors changed the word from that which had been given them; so We sent on the transgressors a plague from heaven, for that they infringed (Our command) repeatedly.
Exodus 32:35 And the LORD plagued the people, because they made the calf, which Aaron made.
002.092 YUSUFALI: There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet ye worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully. 002.093 YUSUFALI: And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai): (Saying): "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and hearken (to the Law)": They said:" We hear, and we disobey:" And they had to drink into their hearts (of the taint) of the calf because of their Faithlessness. Say: "Vile indeed are the behests of your Faith if ye have any faith!"
As I have said before Mr Egypt, in the same way you tell me my English translations of Quran are no good or inaccurate, and Quran was 1400+ years ago, then how do you expect a translation from Classical Hebrew from over 3000 years ago to have every word correct in English?
The MESSAGE is there, the Quran refers to the same 'event' and many others from the Torah. Now you can chose as you like to reject the Torah on account of a difference in a name but it doesnt take away the FACT that the EVENT is recorded in both Books.
The reference to 'changed the Word' in 2:59 is that this was the time the 10 Commandments were being revealed on Mount Sinai to Moses, the people knew this, they saw God doing this (Q 2:55), but they STILL went and worshipped a Golden calf = changed the word, ie, carried on as before and ignored God, therefore punishment of plague was sent even though Moses asked for their forgiveness. This is in both Books. Now does a name discrepancy take anything away from the MESSAGE that is in both Books?
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posted
the torah distorted the story, it isn't the same as the Quran mentioned it , the Torah tell us it was Aaron , Moses's brother who mislead his people and made the calf, the Quran refute this charge against him, who do you want me to believe? of course I believe the Quran so I asked you who do you believe and you didn't answer. I should ask the question in another way, Who made the calf and mislead the people ? can you answer this question Ayisha ?
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Mr Egypt, to put it simply: God sent the Message to Moses, the people didnt 'listen' to that Message and later on He sent Jesus to confirm that Message and to correct where they are going wrong and the people didnt listen and then He sent Muhammed to confirm that Message and to correct where the people are going wrong, and the people still dont listen.
You said above this 'cant be from the same source' as Quran yet you are quoting the exact same story but with a different name, the Quran is putting that right, same as it confirms and puts right what we can eat, who we can marry and that Jesus wasnt the son of God.
The fact that Quran also quotes the same story, among others, is proof to me that is IS from the same source. In Quran it corrects the name of the man but confirms the rest of the story.
As far as my study has taken me so far, The Torah is what God gave to Moses but it was not written down at the time of Moses. As with Quran it was passed down but not 'memorized' in the same way as Quran. It was 'remembered' as stories along with the 'hadith' of Moses. When it was written down, the same as Quran, there were no diactitical marks denoting vowels. Then the same as Quran, there were these marks added to the scripts. The Classical Arabic is similar to the Classical Hebrew in many respects. So what you are getting is the 'story of the Word of God to Moses' as opposed to the Word of God in Quran as Quran was recited as it was told word for word.
The 10 Commandments were burnt into tablets of stone by God's own hand and used the Classical Hebrew WITH the diacritical mark 'suspended', the Classical Hebrew for what we now have as Commandment #1 'Thou shall have no other Gods but me' is one symbol as far as I have discovered so far. Each Commandment was one 'symbol'. The first 5 Commandments deal with Monotheism and the next 5 to do with people and what Laws we should live by, like 'thou shalt not kill'. The people saw God at this time but could not cope with it, this is confirmed in Quran.
Now to say based on that that you cant take Torah as part of the same Message from the same source as Quran is like saying you cant take Quran WITH hadith, but you do. The difference is that we have Quran seperate from hadith in Islam, (technically), so we have the chance NOT to mix the 2 and make it 1, as the Jews seem to have done with their Books and which God warns about in Quran.
So to answer your question regarding Aaron I believe what Quran tells me, but that does not take away from the fact that this IS from the same source and should be studied to find the real part of the Message we are told about in Quran. If the Quran doesnt 'correct' it then it still 'stands' because Quran 'confirms' the Torah and Gospel but 'corrects' those parts that have been taken in error by using words of man.
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PICKTHAL: And We rescued him and Lot (and brought them) to the land which We have blessed for (all) peoples.
021.072
PICKTHAL: And We bestowed upon him Isaac, and Jacob as a grandson. Each of them We made righteous.
021.073
PICKTHAL: And We made them chiefs who guide by Our command, and We inspired in them the doing of good deeds and the right establishment of worship and the giving of alms, and they were worshippers of Us (alone).
021.074
PICKTHAL: And unto Lot we gave judgment and knowledge, and We delivered him from the community that did abominations. Lo! they were folk of evil, lewd.
021.075
PICKTHAL: And We brought him in unto Our mercy. Lo! he was of the righteous.
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: As far as my study has taken me so far, The Torah is what God gave to Moses but it was not written down at the time of Moses.
Who wrote it ?
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: As far as my study has taken me so far, The Torah is what God gave to Moses but it was not written down at the time of Moses.
Who wrote it ?
I tought it was the ten Commandmens tablets what God gave to moses.
Posts: 1106 | From: Puerto Rico | Registered: Aug 2007
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quote:Originally posted by prmiddleeastern: I tought it was the ten Commandmens tablets what God gave to moses.
We have a different opinion here so let's see who wrote the so-called torah that christian have nowadays and they claim it is the word of God.
Posts: 1201 | From: Egypt | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Mr Egypt its not the Christians that follow the Torah, its the Jews.
The 10 Commandments were burnt into stone tablets on mount Sinai by God for Moses.
Eventually various 'scholars' wrote these commandments and other stories/revelation/hadith of Moses into a Book. Who 'wrote' Bukhari?? was it Bukhari or the sahabah who narrated the hadith of the prophet Muhammed?? Who 'wrote' the Quran? was it God or was it the caliph at the time who put it together in a Book?? your arguement applies to all these Mr Egypt. You are finding things that also apply to your own books.
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