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Innocent children punished with death in the New Testament!
Revelation 2:22-23 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
Some christians try to hide the fact that this verse adresses ‘the children of the adulteress’ , however many bible commentators admit honest the true meaning of this verse (supported by the scripture itself)
23. her children--(Isaiah 57:3, Ezekiel 23:45,47). Her proper adherents; not those who suffer her, but those who are begotten of her. A distinct class from the last in Revelation 2:22 (compare Note, direct, being that only of connivance.
Bible Commentary: ‘Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament’ :
Revelation chapter 2, Verse 23: I will kill with death (apoktenw en qanatwi). Future (volitive) active of apokteinw with the tautological (cognate) en qanatwi (in the sense of pestilence) as in Ezekiel 33:27. Her children (ta tekna authß). Either her actual children, like the fate of Ahab's sons (2 Kings 10:7) or "her spiritual progeny" (Swete) who have completely accepted her Nicolaitan practices. Shall know (gnwsontai). Future (ingressive punctiliar) middle of ginwskw, "shall come to know." "The doom of the offenders was to be known as widely as the scandal had been" (Charles). Searcheth (eraunwn). Present active articular participle of eraunaw, to follow up, to track out, late form for ereunaw, from Jeremiah 17:10. Reins (neprouß). Old word for kidneys, here only in N.T., quoted also with kardiaß from Jeremiah 17:10. See Revelation 22:17 for the reward of punishment.
John Wesley's Explanatory Notes on the Whole Bible , The Book of Revelation Chapter 2:
2:23 And I will kill her children - Those which she hath borne in adultery, and them whom she hath seduced. With death - This expression denotes death by the plague, or by some manifest stroke of God's hand. Probably the remarkable vengeance taken on her children was the token of the certainty of all the rest. And all the churches - To which thou now writest. Shall know that I search the reins - The desires. And hearts - Thoughts.
Revelation Commentary , CHAPTER TWO - THE SEVEN CHURCHES, PART 1
3b. And [I will cast] those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation = indicates a punishment for those who have joined in with Jezebel’s cultural compromise. Adultery can be either literal or figurative. It should be understood as the literal breaking of the marriage vows. There is nothing in the text to indicate that married individuals were not participating in Jezebel’s activities. Just as they were physically eating meat offered to idols, they were engaging in illicit sexual activity. The penalty for this conduct is "great tribulation."
3d. And I will kill her children with pestilence = a case can be made for either physical or spiritual children. The outcome is the same—death. Pestilence is spoken of as the method of judgment. This event is specifically indicated to be authorized by the Lamb who is "The Son of God."
Robert Van Kampen - (1938-1999) Author of numerous eschatological books and Founder of Sola Scriptura and The Sign Ministries, was a graduate of Wheaton College, a leading Christian businessman, co-founder of churches and missions agencies, and was founder of The Scriptorium. The Van Kampen Collection is the largest private collection of manuscripts, artifacts, scrolls and early printed editions of the Bible in the world today. He held an honorary doctoral degree in humane letters from Indiana Wesleyan University.
Rev. Bill Lee-Warner - (1946-2001) Bill was a graduate of Oregon State University, received his M.Div. from Western Evangelical Seminary, and pastored churches for more than twenty years. He served Sola Scriptura and The Sign Ministries as a writer, lecturer, and editor.
Rev. Charles Cooper - Instructor, Biblical Research & Education, Sola Scriptura, graduated from Ouachita Baptist University then went on to Dallas Theological Seminary and received a Master of Theology degree. After graduate school, Charles taught Homiletics and Hermeneutics at Moody Bible Institute for six and a half years.
Gary Vaterlaus - Instructor, Biblical Research & Education, Sola Scriptura, a graduate of Oregon State University, Gary worked at the U.S. Embassy in Moscow before attending Western Conservative Baptist Seminary and starting a Christian publishing ministry in Russia. As an Instructor, Gary responds to correspondence and teaches the prewrath position nationwide.
2- The scriptual support and proof :
Ezekiel 23:45-48 (King James Version)
45: And the righteous men, they shall judge them after the manner of adulteresses, and after the manner of women that shed blood; because they are adulteresses, and blood is in their hands. 46: For thus saith the Lord GOD; I will bring up a company upon them, and will give them to be removed and spoiled. 47: And the company shall stone them with stones, and dispatch them with their swords; they shall slay their sons and their daughters, and burn up their houses with fire.
48: Thus will I cause lewdness to cease out of the land, that all women may be taught not to do after your lewdness.
(not only of corporeal uncleanness, but also of spiritual adultery; that is, idolatry)
Dr. Constable's Notes on Ezekiel , page 113
The Lord commanded a group of soldiers to attack these cities and to
terrorize and plunder them. These invaders would stone the guilty (the
punishment for adulterers and murderers in the Mosaic Law), slay them
and their children with their swords, and burn their houses.
these verses and classic commentaries make clear, that God according to the bible will punish the (innocent) children for the crimes commited by their parents (the idol worsippers and adulteresses) , why punish innocent childeren for the crimes (murder, adultery) commited by their parents??
Hosea 2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they be the children of whoredoms.
Commentary: The 1599 Geneva Study Bible , Hosea chapter 2
2:4 And I will not have mercy upon her children; for they [be] the f children of whoredoms.
3- The new testament’s confirmation of upholding this old testament law:
Jesus orders Christians to follow the Old Testament's laws: "Do not think that I [Jesus] have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished. (Matthew 5:17-18)" It is quite clear from these verses from the New Testament that Jesus peace be upon him did honor the Old Testament and did say that every single "letter" of it has to be honored, followed and fulfilled.
"Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 'The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. So you must obey them and do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach.' (Matthew 23:1-3)"
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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This is why modern, spiritually evolved human beings ignore ANY scripture that propogates death and harsh punitive measures.
What exactly is your point? You won't find even a handful of Christians today that would support that verse even if they thought it was divinely inspired (which they don't)
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That is a PROPHECY from the book of Revelation! It is metaphorical and has nothing to do with killing children!!
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Feb 2008
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the bible speaks of the children of Israel also, but it doesnt mean just the little kids that are there.
Posts: 41 | From: usa | Registered: Jan 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Strangeways.: That is a PROPHECY from the book of Revelation! It is metaphorical and has nothing to do with killing children!!
What about the other wicked verses?..Funny how you skipped right over them!
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Sands, we are in a world that is trying to improve things. Each book can say bad things.And can be read in so many ways. Please stop preaching your views and appreciate that we are not all bad because we don't follow your words
Posts: 4476 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2006
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The wars and violence in the OT are descriptive, not prescriptive. But, In the Quran, The Order to fight against non-muslims is prescriptive. Jihad is forever for muslims.
The inspired Apostle Paul says:
3 For though we live in the world, we do not wage war as the world does. 4 The weapons we fight with are not the weapons of the world. On the contrary, they have divine power to demolish strongholds. 5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. (2 Corinthians 10:3-5)
Paul uses the image of a military war with words like "weapons," "fight," "demolish," and "strongholds." But these verses have nothing to do with fighting people with sharp swords in a physical war. Instead, the verses communicate mental and spiritual warfare, in key words such as "arguments," "pretension," "knowledge," and "thought."
In the Old Testament, sometimes God commands all inhabitants of a region or town to be wiped out entirely, like Sodom and Gomorrah. It must be clearly repeated that according to the Bible no region or town that had a hope of repentance or righteousness was ever wiped out.
While the prophet Ezekiel does not spare the wicked in his denunciations, he also records Yahweh's words of grace: "If a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die…Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live?" (Ezekiel 18:21, 23). And he goes on in verse 32, "For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!" And there is this compelling verse recorded in 2 Chronicles 16:9, "For the eyes of the Lord range throughout the earth to strengthen those whose hearts are fully committed to him."
The entire Bible from beginning to end never deviates from this standard of justice as well as grace. In God's enduring justice, he never simply blinks casually at sin. But that is not the end of the story, nor even the overriding theme of the Bible. For as humanity spirals deeper into self-gratification, God intervenes. Indeed, the Old Testament is a record of God's intervening in the human situation with a new promise of hope. The New Testament is the record of grace applied to people lost in sin and rebellion. There was no compulsion placed on God to undertake this rescue operation. But the plan was and is indescribably marvelous. God did not forget about guilt and justice. Rather, Jesus Christ, the God-man, took on himself the punishment and so satisfied the grisly sentence. This is what Christians call grace. The Bible is mainly a record of grace, set against a backdrop of horror and misery. The Old Testament law was given to a nation of people. It represented not only their spiritual law, but also their civil law.
The first coming of Jesus Christ, 600 years before Muhammad, ushered in a new era of salvation. The Old Covenant is to the New Covenant what promise is to fulfillment. Messiah was the Great Deliverer for whom faithful Jews waited and longed. They and some of their neighbours talked about "when Messiah comes". One of the earliest disciples, after he had met Jesus. told a friend, "We have found Messiah", and the gospel writer who recorded the incident added a word of explanation, "which is, being interpreted, the Christ" (John 1:41). They were exciting times. Faithful Jews had been craning their necks to catch a glimpse of Messiah's time. They were constantly on the watch, yearning for the day. Messiah was the kernel of all Jewish hopes, the very essence of the great promises made by God as set down in the Old Testament. Jesus was that Messiah.
The Old Testament described Jesus before he was born. No one but God could have foretold in such detail so many different kinds of things about Jesus. The Jews themselves had identified many of these Scriptures as foretelling Messiah. They were not brought to light until after Jesus came. They were plain for all to see. Some of them are so astonishing that we may feel they can only have been written after the events they speak about. Yet the evidence that they were written centuries before is altogether beyond doubt. Let us say it clearly: the birth, life, mission, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ of Nazareth were detailed in the old Jewish scriptures, the Old Testament, and read in Jewish synagogues at home and abroad, and faithfully preserved right down to our own times.
The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in 1947, some of them pre-dating the birth of Jesus by over 200 years contain, for example, copies of the prophet Isaiah with exactly the same prophecies as are known to us from our English Bible. The same is true of the Greek translations of the Old Testament: they too were made two or three centuries before Christ and are known to us by various manuscripts now in museums in different parts of the world. Thus the prophecies were known in Hebrew and Greek long before Jesus came. Therefore, it would simply be flying in the face of incontestable facts to say that these prophecies were 'inserted' after Jesus was born.
In any case, we must remember that the Jewish nation is not Christian. and they would never have allowed their Bible, the Old Testament, to be tampered with by Christian hands. To try to plead, as some have done, that the prophecies were added at a later date is only to admit how good they are! The only Bible available to Jesus was the one we know as the Old Testament. Josephus, the Jewish historian of the first century AD, lists the books in the Jewish Bible in his day and they are exactly the ones we have in our Old Testament. The Old Testament without doubt predates the time of Jesus.
The suffering of Christ were full of redemptive purpose. He suffered for our forgiveness and salvation. The Old Testament words could not be clearer:
"Surely he hath borne our griefs. and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted. But he was wounded for our transgressions. he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him: and with his stripes we are healed. All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the LORD hath laid on him the iniquity of us all." (Isaiah 53:4-6)
Those prophecies are as clear and unambiguous as those about Christ. We all are witnesses to their truth. Everyone knows about the Jews as a nation in their own land. The Bible foretold it and God has fulfilled it. Therefore, it is absolutely certain that Christ will come back to be King on earth. Look at what the Old Testament has promised:
"For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this." (Isaiah 9:6,7)Posts: 1029 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by young at heart: Sands, we are in a world that is trying to improve things. Each book can say bad things.And can be read in so many ways. Please stop preaching your views and appreciate that we are not all bad because we don't follow your words
Why should I stop? Strangeways presents her impression of Islaam and I counter with verses from the Christian Bible. If you don't like what I present from the Bible take it up with it's authors.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Sands, what she presents about Islam is the same thing that you present about Islam. It is "YOUR" presentation of Islam that gives us laymen a bad impression of Islam. Not what she post. She just posts articles. You post your true beliefs.
Before I came to this board and saw your presentation of Islam, I thought it was just the few radical terrorist that hold the ideas that you present. Now I see that it is a much broader group from what you have presented and from those who agree with and don't rebuke your presentation of Islam.
Sorry sands but you just look like a foolish boy throwing stones with your post to discredit Christianity. Not one Christian on this board has ever advocated killing anyone in the name of God. Yet you, a Muslim does on a regular basis. Not only do you advocate killing kafers and apostates, you also advocate rape, child abuse, torture, discriminating against women... What conclusion would you like us to draw from your presentation?
Why not instead try and show us a positive view of Islam?
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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Of_gold, because he doesnt see one, thats why.
Sands hates that undercover presents Islam in the same way that sands believes it, undercover doesnt use the words sands would and puts it more bluntly than sands would like. You are right in what you say about presenting what sands actually has stated here is Islam though. Sands sees Islam as something that allows him 4 wives and as many concubines as he wishes, captured in wars that he must wage with any non muslim. He sees that his wives or any of these concubines cannot refuse him sex. He agrees with jihad in the form af waging war on any non muslim nation and anyone leaving Islam should be killed, thats sands' Islam, which is only what undercover is saying. Sands should really be thanking undercover for posting the same as sands believes but sands gets confused sometimes and reads it in the same way we do, then gets angry that he cant refute it so calls everyone kafir and has a tantrum. The anti-Christian posts of his are part of his tantrum.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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When will people realize that Islam is as Islam does?
I respect your version of Islam, but is it acceptable in the Islamic world? Until your views become mainstream Islamic, people will continue to criticize Islam, and will continue to present Islam in the same way that sands believes it, simply because his views are endorsed by all Islamic schools of thought.
You say for example that the death penalty for apostacy is un-Islamic, but the fact is that all Islamic schools of thought endorse it.
There are differences of opinion among Muslims, but, while there are differences, there are also common elements. Just as Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant Christians differ on many aspects of Christianity, still they accept important common elements. So it is with Islam.
One of the common elements to all Islamic schools of thought is death for apostasy, & jihad - understood as the obligation of the Ummah to conquer and subdue the world in the name of Allah and rule it under Sharia law.
The four Sunni Madhhabs (schools of fiqh [Islamic religious jurisprudence])-Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii, and Hanbali -all agree on the death penalty for apostasy. So how can you say that I present a false picture of Islam?
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undercover, I said you present the picture of Islam that sands believes. You bash him with his own beliefs and he has a tantrum because of that, because he doesnt know how to answer you.
I know what the majority of Muslims and their 'scholars' say is Islam, but it doesnt make them right just because they are the majority.
I dont care if the entire population of the universe 'tell' me that Islam is Quran and sunnah or that Allah and the angels pray to Muhammed, or that apostates must be killed, the Quran tells me otherwise and I will not be forced to agree on something I cant agree with. If the entire ummah call me kafir it makes no difference to 'me', although it will to 'them' one day.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by of_gold: Sands, what she presents about Islam is the same thing that you present about Islam.
It is a shame that neither you, strangeways, undercover, or other kaffireen don't know Islaam. Undercover, Strangeways Islaam is not Islaam it is Shia for the most part. They are not Muslims but because you and you elk don't know what Islaam is you are confused. Actually, don't come here pretending like you care about Islaam and how it is presented. Your goal is to discredit Islaam. You are not here to learn about Islaam with the intentions of embracing Islaam and becoming a Muslim. You vainly try to deceive Allah and Muslims, but you are only deceiving yourself.
quote: It is "YOUR" presentation of Islam that gives us laymen a bad impression of Islam. Not what she post. She just posts articles. You post your true beliefs.
She post articles with her hate embedded inside usually in the beginning of the articles or at the end. So stop your lying! You are of the same elk as she is and even though you would hate that I leave you alone, I won't. I will fight you with words that expose your hate for Allah, His Messenger/Prophet and our deen.
quote: Before I came to this board and saw your presentation of Islam, I thought it was just the few radical terrorist that hold the ideas that you present. Now I see that it is a much broader group from what you have presented and from those who agree with and don't rebuke your presentation of Islam.
What I show you Islaam in it's pureiest form. There are Millions who believe what I believe and take note it is growing daily. The ranks are increasing daily. Muslims are feed up with people like you, Ayisha, strangeways, undercover, ????, freshsoda and all enemies of Islaam. They can't rebuke the truth. What I quote is from Quran, how can a Muslim refute Quran? How can a Muslim refute authentic Hadeeth? If they did they would be included in your ranks of haters for Islaam. Only haters will refute Quran and Hadeeth!
quote: Sorry sands but you just look like a foolish boy throwing stones with your post to discredit Christianity. Not one Christian on this board has ever advocated killing anyone in the name of God.
Your elk don't have to advocate it. It is demonstrate in the daily lives of the Muslims throughout the world. Look at Palestine. Look at Afghanistan. Look at Iraq. Look at Pakistan. Look at Russia. The violence is carried out of those who are of Christan faith. The media may not say Christains but what is the religion and fatih of George W. Bush? What was the religion of his father? What was the religion of Bill Clinton? What was the Religion of Ronald Regan? And a host of others..the answer is Christianity.
quote: Yet you, a Muslim does on a regular basis. Not only do you advocate killing kafers and apostates, you also advocate rape, child abuse, torture, discriminating against women... What conclusion would you like us to draw from your presentation?
I advocate an eye for an eye! A tooth for a tooth. As Malik El Shabazz Malcolm X said: You want us to be non-violent when you are being violent? No we will do what we have to do, "By Any Means Necessary!" You want us to put down our guns while you threaten us with your weapons of mass destruction? You rather we throw stones at your tanks and airplanes? Silly thoughts!
Be violent with those who are violent with you!
quote: Why not instead try and show us a positive view of Islam?
Yes, you would rather me show you what? Slap me so that I can turn the other cheek? What your elk rape our women and impregnant them in Abu Gharayb prison. You torture our men and degrade them in sexual positions and put leashes on them like dogs. You murder innocent civilians daily..murdering them in their beds while they are sleeping. You deprive them of medicine, food, electricity in the winter like dogs or wild animals in the street. You stop our children from going to school and the men from seeking employment to earn money to take care of their families. You don't do it in the name of Christianity or Judiasm but those who are the offenders of such crimes are in fact Jews and Christians your brethren.
You want me to present Islaam in a nice manner, while you violate my brothers and sisters worldwide..Naw you won't fool me or even try to when the sympathy of of brethern for WE know what evil comes from your hands even when you try to hide it and say it is not from Christianity.
Tell you what you get your elk to act right and stop the oppression of Muslims world-wide and maybe we will stop violence with violence.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Mockery is good for the faithful, says Carey By Andrew Sparrow, Political Correspondent
Muslims and members of other religions should get used to being mocked, the former Archbishop of Canterbury said yesterday.
Lord Carey of Clifton said he passionately believed it was good for members of a religion to have their faith criticised on certain occasions.
Speaking as a member of an all-party group of peers opposing the Racial and Religious Hatred Bill, Lord Carey said he wanted to live in a society where people were sensitive to the feelings of others.
"But in being sensitive, what we mustn't do is create a society in which certain stories are not told," Lord Carey told a news conference.
The former archbishop said that, following the publication of Salman Rushdie's book Satanic Verses, Muslim groups came to him asking him to support their campaign against the novel.
"They were very offended by Satanic Verses but I said you are living in a country and civilisation where we are quite used to this," he said.
"They say: 'Why as a Christian don't you condemn the Life of Brian?' I said: 'I love the film and I think it is good for religion to be knocked, to be criticised, to be challenged because we have done a lot of damage in the past'.
"We know religion is a force for good but I don't want to control a writer not to criticise me, because I may need that criticism.
"The Church of England is a broad church, we are used to being mocked. I do believe passionately in this. I wanted to assure Salman Rushdie that although many of his statements may have been in bad taste he had the right to say it as a lapsed Muslim."
Ministers are facing defeat in the Lords next week when peers debate the detail of the Bill, which would make inciting religious hatred an offence.
The Tories and the Liberal Democrats, who together can outvote Labour in the Lords, have tabled an amendment designed to address the concerns that the Government's Bill would undermine freedom of speech.
The amendment would create a "freedom of expression" defence making it clear that people were entitled to criticise religions in terms that involved ridicule and abuse. An offence would be committed only if it could be shown that someone was "intentionally" fomenting religious hatred.
The amendment would fulfil the Government's manifesto promise to legislate on religious hatred, giving Muslims the same protection as groups like Jews and Sikhs, who are already protected by race hatred legislation.
Rowan Atkinson, the comedian, told the journalists that if the Government's Bill were passed, it would not be used against someone as high-profile as himself.
"It is the little person I fear for. I worry about the bloke in the pub, the bloke writing the thesis about Judaism. It is those people who are more likely to be got at," he said.
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: It is a shame that neither you, strangeways, undercover, or other kaffireen don't know Islaam. Undercover, Strangeways Islaam is not Islaam it is Shia for the most part. They are not Muslims but because you and you elk don't know what Islaam is you are confused. Actually, don't come here pretending like you care about Islaam and how it is presented. Your goal is to discredit Islaam. You are not here to learn about Islaam with the intentions of embracing Islaam and becoming a Muslim. You vainly try to deceive Allah and Muslims, but you are only deceiving yourself.
She post articles with her hate embedded inside usually in the beginning of the articles or at the end. So stop your lying! You are of the same elk as she is and even though you would hate that I leave you alone, I won't. I will fight you with words that expose your hate for Allah, His Messenger/Prophet and our deen.
What I show you Islaam in it's pureiest form. There are Millions who believe what I believe and take note it is growing daily. The ranks are increasing daily. Muslims are feed up with people like you, Ayisha, strangeways, undercover, ????, freshsoda and all enemies of Islaam. They can't rebuke the truth. What I quote is from Quran, how can a Muslim refute Quran? How can a Muslim refute authentic Hadeeth? If they did they would be included in your ranks of haters for Islaam. Only haters will refute Quran and Hadeeth!
Your elk don't have to advocate it. It is demonstrate in the daily lives of the Muslims throughout the world. Look at Palestine. Look at Afghanistan. Look at Iraq. Look at Pakistan. Look at Russia. The violence is carried out of those who are of Christan faith. The media may not say Christains but what is the religion and fatih of George W. Bush? What was the religion of his father? What was the religion of Bill Clinton? What was the Religion of Ronald Regan? And a host of others..the answer is Christianity.
I advocate an eye for an eye! A tooth for a tooth. As Malik El Shabazz Malcolm X said: You want us to be non-violent when you are being violent? No we will do what we have to do, "By Any Means Necessary!" You want us to put down our guns while you threaten us with your weapons of mass destruction? You rather we throw stones at your tanks and airplanes? Silly thoughts!
Be violent with those who are violent with you!
Yes, you would rather me show you what? Slap me so that I can turn the other cheek? What your elk rape our women and impregnant them in Abu Gharayb prison. You torture our men and degrade them in sexual positions and put leashes on them like dogs. You murder innocent civilians daily..murdering them in their beds while they are sleeping. You deprive them of medicine, food, electricity in the winter like dogs or wild animals in the street. You stop our children from going to school and the men from seeking employment to earn money to take care of their families. You don't do it in the name of Christianity or Judiasm but those who are the offenders of such crimes are in fact Jews and Christians your brethren.
You want me to present Islaam in a nice manner, while you violate my brothers and sisters worldwide..Naw you won't fool me or even try to when the sympathy of of brethern for WE know what evil comes from your hands even when you try to hide it and say it is not from Christianity.
Tell you what you get your elk to act right and stop the oppression of Muslims world-wide and maybe we will stop violence with violence.
elk /ɛlk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[elk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun, plural elks, (especially collectively) elk for 1, 2. 1. Also called European elk. the moose, Alces alces. 2. Also called American elk, wapiti. a large North American deer, Cervus canadensis, the male of which has large, spreading antlers. 3. a pliable leather used for sport shoes, made originally of elk hide but now of calfskin or cowhide tanned and smoked to resemble elk hide. 4. (initial capital letter) a member of a fraternal organization (Benevolent and Protective Order of Elks) that supports or contributes to various charitable causes.
could you mean 'ilk'?
ilk1 /ɪlk/ Pronunciation Key - Show Spelled Pronunciation[ilk] Pronunciation Key - Show IPA Pronunciation –noun 1. family, class, or kind: he and all his ilk. –adjective 2. same. —Idiom3. of that ilk, a. (in Scotland) of the same family name or place: Ross of that ilk, i.e., Ross of Ross. b. of the same class or kind.
"I can press when there needs to be pressed; I can hold hands when there needs to be -- hold hands." --George W. Bush, on how he can contribute to the Middle East peace process, Washington, D.C., Jan. 4, 2008
"Make no mistake about it, I understand how tough it is, sir. I talk to families who die." --George W. Bush, Washington, D.C., Dec. 7, 2006
"The only way we can win is to leave before the job is done." --George W. Bush, Greeley, Colo., Nov. 4, 2006
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Of_gold, because he doesnt see one, thats why.
Sands hates that undercover presents Islam in the same way that sands believes it, undercover doesnt use the words sands would and puts it more bluntly than sands would like.
Your right. I am straight to the point..no holds bar! More like Umar bin Al Khattab..who was known as Al Farouk!
quote: You are right in what you say about presenting what sands actually has stated here is Islam though. Sands sees Islam as something that allows him 4 wives and as many concubines as he wishes
A fact that is already proven by Quran..even though you and your elk hate it!
quote: captured in wars that he must wage with any non muslim.
Allah tells us in the Quran to fight them until the deen of Allah is establish on the earth! The Muslims were very peaceful in the beginning..but you see the Mushrikun keep playing with them, torturing them, killing them and going back on their agreements with the Muslims..then Allah said enough is enough..and the ayat of the sword was announced..Surah At-Taubah verse 5..look it up Ayisha and of-Gold.
quote:He sees that his wives or any of these concubines cannot refuse him sex.
You have NEVER heard me say this. NEVER those are your words not mine.
quote: He agrees with jihad in the form af waging war on any non muslim nation and anyone leaving Islam should be killed, thats sands' Islam, which is only what undercover is saying. Sands should really be thanking undercover for posting the same as sands believes but sands gets confused sometimes and reads it in the same way we do.
Yes this is the position of Allah..Disprove it from Quran. Actually, as I have mentioned previously. Jihad is a last resort. The Kaffiroon are offered the option of paying the Jizyah and if they refuse then we wage Jihad on them.
quote: then gets angry that he cant refute it so calls everyone kafir and has a tantrum. The anti-Christian posts of his are part of his tantrum.
I have never been angry about strangeways talking about Jihad. Jihad is considered the 6th pillar of Islaam. I believe in it! I support it fully. I see nothing wrong with Jihad done in the correct manner. I am against suicide bomer of innocent civilians. However, I do support it against military targets.
My issue with strangeways is when she mocks at Islaam. I will never let her or anyone mock at Islaam. When she spread her Shia lies and attribute them to Islaam then we have a problem.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Strangeways.: When will people realize that Islam is as Islam does?
I respect your version of Islam, but is it acceptable in the Islamic world? Until your views become mainstream Islamic, people will continue to criticize Islam, and will continue to present Islam in the same way that sands believes it, simply because his views are endorsed by all Islamic schools of thought.
You say for example that the death penalty for apostacy is un-Islamic, but the fact is that all Islamic schools of thought endorse it.
There are differences of opinion among Muslims, but, while there are differences, there are also common elements. Just as Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and Protestant Christians differ on many aspects of Christianity, still they accept important common elements. So it is with Islam.
One of the common elements to all Islamic schools of thought is death for apostasy, & jihad - understood as the obligation of the Ummah to conquer and subdue the world in the name of Allah and rule it under Sharia law.
The four Sunni Madhhabs (schools of fiqh [Islamic religious jurisprudence])-Hanafi, Maliki, Shafii, and Hanbali -all agree on the death penalty for apostasy. So how can you say that I present a false picture of Islam?
What is the problem. Islaam says that the one who apostate is to be put to death! I too and Millions upon millions support this. This is mainstream Islaam. Get over it!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: Of_gold, because he doesnt see one, thats why.
Sands hates that undercover presents Islam in the same way that sands believes it, undercover doesnt use the words sands would and puts it more bluntly than sands would like.
Your right. I am straight to the point..no holds bar! More like Umar bin Al Khattab..who was known as Al Farouk!
having problems comprehending what I wrote sands?? I said Undercover is more blunt than YOU.
quote: You are right in what you say about presenting what sands actually has stated here is Islam though. Sands sees Islam as something that allows him 4 wives and as many concubines as he wishes
A fact that is already proven by Quran..even though you and your elk hate it![/quote]you have a problem with elks?
Maria Bartiromo: "I'm curious, have you ever googled anybody? Do you use Google?" President Bush: "Occasionally. One of the things I've used on the Google is to pull up maps. It's very interesting to see -- I've forgot the name of the program -- but you get the satellite, and you can -- like, I kinda like to look at the ranch. It remind me of where I wanna be sometimes." --interview with CNBC's Maria Bartiromo, Oct. 24, 2006
"We're never been stay the course, George." --George W. Bush,
Sands, did YOU go to the same uni as GB?
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Jihad is considered the 6th pillar of Islaam.
can you explain bida to me please?
Go sit at the feet of a scholar! First ask him/her to explain La Ilaha Illah Muhammadur Rasulullah.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Islaam says that the one who apostate is to be put to death! I too and Millions upon millions support this. This is mainstream Islaam.
can you please show me where it says this, in Quran?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Jihad is considered the 6th pillar of Islaam.
can you explain bida to me please?
Go sit at the feet of a scholar! First ask him/her to explain La Ilaha Illah Muhammadur Rasulullah.
Im asking you sands. I understand la ilaha ilallah and I understand Muhammed is the 'messenger', I want to know about the mysterious '6th pillar of Islam' you have invented here, isnt that considered 'bida'??
If you can't answer say so, no need for a tantrum.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:
quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Jihad is considered the 6th pillar of Islaam.
can you explain bida to me please?
Go sit at the feet of a scholar! First ask him/her to explain La Ilaha Illah Muhammadur Rasulullah.
Im asking you sands. I understand la ilaha ilallah and I understand Muhammed is the 'messenger', I want to know about the mysterious '6th pillar of Islam' you have invented here, isnt that considered 'bida'??
If you can't answer say so, no need for a tantrum.
Listen Ayisha. There is no 1,2,3,4 or 5 pillars in the Quran. So to even discuss this issue with you is a move point.
Also, you want answers to be handed down to you like in the blink of an eye. It does not happen that way. Many people have offer their lives for this deen and in the form of blood and time. You too have to make some effort and not just sit in the comfort of your flat and want knowledge to come to you. Get off your fanny and go seek knowledge.
Yesterday my wife and I spend 4 hours in duroos with a Shaykh. We left the comfort of our home in search of knowledge to acquire knowledge as this was done with the salaf. So don't think for a second that just because you ask for it I or someone has to tell you the answer to your question in the blink of an eye. The books that you read were acquired by sacrifice and effort.
Jihad can never be considered a bidah! NEVER! Do you know that the shuhadah are loved by Allah? What greated sacrafice is there but to give our live in the cause of Allah!
Only a kaffir would mock Jihad! And only a coward will be scared of Jihad!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: Listen Ayisha. There is no 1,2,3,4 or 5 pillars in the Quran. So to even discuss this issue with you is a move point.
do you mean 'moot' point?
quote:Also, you want answers to be handed down to you like in the blink of an eye. It does not happen that way. Many people have offer their lives for this deen and in the form of blood and time. You too have to make some effort and not just sit in the comfort of your flat and want knowledge to come to you. Get off your fanny and go seek knowledge.
Yesterday my wife and I spend 4 hours in duroos with a Shaykh. We left the comfort of our home in search of knowledge to acquire knowledge as this was done with the salaf. So don't think for a second that just because you ask for it I or someone has to tell you the answer to your question in the blink of an eye. The books that you read were acquired by sacrifice and effort.
Jihad can never be considered a bidah! NEVER! Do you know that the shuhadah are loved by Allah? What greated sacrafice is there but to give our live in the cause of Allah!
Only a kaffir would mock Jihad! And only a coward will be scared of Jihad!
I have read the books sands.
You made a statement and I asked you about it and now you are running round in circles desperately trying NOT to answer what I asked.
YOU said Jihad is considered the 6th Pillar of Islam, I asked where this is from, you cant answer so therefore I am forced to assume you invented it.
YOU said that killing apostates is in Islam, I asked you where and again you cant answer it, so again I am forced to assume you invented that too.
You see, I ask you questions sands, and I ask you to show me where these things are that YOU claim to be Islam, why then cant you answer me?
Saying that I believe different to you so it is a moot point to answer me is not helping me to understand Islam the same as you do is it? Considering I have read the books you tell me to read and I still find nothing that YOU CLAIM to be Islam. Telling me to sit at the feet of a scholar and telling me that you and your wife did the same yesterday is not answering my questions, its avoiding them.
This shows that the books you tell me to read by the scholars you claim know it all have still not convinced you enough so you have to still have someone explain to you what you are 'supposed' to believe.
I think you are really as confused about it as anyone else, thats why you have to be constantly told what you should beleive. And even after you have been told you cannot explain it to me, or anyone else.
Now, where does it say Jihad is the 6th or any pillar of Islam, and where does it say apostates must be killed? You CLAIM you quote Quran and you CLAIM you beleive in Quran and sunnah, so where are the answers in those books to my simple questions please?
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posted
Ayisha here is a Quranic lesson for you inshaa Allah it deals with the adab of seeking knowledge. Look at what Musa Alayhi Assalaam (a Prophet of Allah) did in response to seeking knowledge. This issue was concerning when Musa Alayhi Assalaam thought that he was the most knowledgeable person in the land and Allah informed him that someone has more knowledge then him. Allah told him to go see a man in a ceratin area and he will teach you things:
Surah Al Kahf verse 66:
Musa said to him (Al Khidir): "May I follow you so that you teach me something of that knowledge which you have been taught(by Allah)?"
my words Ayisha: See how Musa (AS)talked with Khidir. He wasn't forceful, he humbled himself to Khidir even though Musa (AS) was a Prophet. The one seeking knowledge must always humble themselves to the one they are seeking knowledge from. Musa (AS) didn't say "Hey teach me the knowledge that you have!..Give it to me..etc!
The the teacher told him:
Verse 67: He said: "Verily, you will not be able to have patience about a thing which you know not?"
"And how can you have patience about a thing which you know not?"
my words: See the teacher knows the how heavy knowledge is and that it requires patience as sabr ya Ayisha. It is not something that you hasten into..give it to me know..tell me. No!
So Musa said: "If Allah wills you will find me patient, and I wil not disobey you in aught."
my words o Ayisha: A student must humble himself/herself before the teacher (shaykh) and listen and obey the words and advice of the one who is teaching for he/she has the knowledge which the seeker is searching for. Your problem most of the time is that you think you know it and therefore you do not need to seek the one who possesses the knowledge and therein lies your problem. Your arrogance of prevents you from seeking the people of knowledge because you think you know Islaam better then those who have acquire the true understanding of Islaam.
Khidir (AS) continues:
He said: "Then if you follow me, ask me not about anything till I myself mention of it to you."
otherwise Khidir is telling the student to be quiet, listen, observe and don't even ask questions about what will transpire doing my teaching you the things that you don't know. Patience dear Ayisha..patience!
You can read the rest of the story until ayaats 82.
This has been the way of anyone seeking knowledge. The one wanting knowledge must go to the one who had it. The one seeking knowledge must humble themselves trememdously. One seeking knowledge must have patience and NOT question hastely.
Inshaa Allah you will benefit from this.
-------------------- 'Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "Allah's Apostle (صلى الله عليه و سلم) took hold of my shoulder and said, "Be in this world as if you were a stranger or a traveller." Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: I have read the books sands.
You made a statement and I asked you about it and now you are running round in circles desperately trying NOT to answer what I asked.
I just explained to you I don't have to answer your question if I don't want to. I also suggested to you to find a qualified scholar to seek the answers to your question if I choose not to answer them. Go and seek the knowledge for yourself instead of relying on me.
quote:YOU said Jihad is considered the 6th Pillar of Islam, I asked where this is from, you cant answer so therefore I am forced to assume you invented it.
I answered this quesition but not in the way YOU wanted me to answer it. Therefore you are forced to look elsewhere for your answer if my response was not to your liking.
quote:YOU said that killing apostates is in Islam, I asked you where and again you cant answer it, so again I am forced to assume you invented that too.
The answer lies in the thing you reject. The authentic hadeeth. However, you already knew that.
quote: You see, I ask you questions sands, and I ask you to show me where these things are that YOU claim to be Islam, why then cant you answer me?
Because I refuse to at times to go into useless debates with you on issues of that have been discussed by us previously.
quote: Saying that I believe different to you so it is a moot point to answer me is not helping me to understand Islam the same as you do is it? Considering I have read the books you tell me to read and I still find nothing that YOU CLAIM to be Islam. Telling me to sit at the feet of a scholar and telling me that you and your wife did the same yesterday is not answering my questions, its avoiding them.
Then again I suggest that you do like Musa (AS) and go to the people of knowledge as Allah instructs you to do so in the Quran. "If you don't know ask the people of knowledge."
quote: This shows that the books you tell me to read by the scholars you claim know it all have still not convinced you enough so you have to still have someone explain to you what you are 'supposed' to believe.
No it shows that I obey Allah by going to the People of Knowledge and seek advice from them just like Musa (AS), just like the Sahabah (RA) and many other righteous ulemah (RA).
quote: I think you are really as confused about it as anyone else, thats why you have to be constantly told what you should beleive. And even after you have been told you cannot explain it to me, or anyone else.
I think those who know what I present know that I am firm in my believe and I can present my proof if or when I desire to. You're just upset that I choose not to help you. Get over it.
quote: Now, where does it say Jihad is the 6th or any pillar of Islam, and where does it say apostates must be killed? You CLAIM you quote Quran and you CLAIM you beleive in Quran and sunnah, so where are the answers in those books to my simple questions please?
Again asked and answer. If you don't like my answers go seek the People of Knowledge. I hope that there are knowledge scholars there in Luxor or is it just a tourist hangout full of fitnah?
If you want I can direct you to a website if your resources are limit whereby you can ask you questions directly to a Salafi Shaykh..hows that?
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: as I thought, no answers.
Surah Al Kahf Verse 67 and 68 : He said: "Verily, you will not be able to have patience about a thing which you know not?"
"And how can you have patience about a thing which you know not?"
Then I suggest you get off your fanny and look elsewhere.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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sands, fanny in English means very different to fanny in American, please stop referring to my fanny, thank you.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: elsewhere other than Quran?
sands, fanny in English means very different to fanny in American, please stop referring to my fanny, thank you.
I will keep going with you..Yes, elsewhere other than the Quran. Your knowledge is limited and you are certainly not a scholar of Quran in the least bit, not even close. So yes seek out the people who are way more knowledgeable than you with your 5 years or so of limited understanding.
And once again get off your fanny and do what the salaf did put one foot in front of the other and knock on someone's door and beg them to teach you that which you do not know or understand!
Do you really think I give a rat fanny about British English.. Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: So yes seek out the people who are way more knowledgeable than you with your 5 years or so of limited understanding.
you contradict the Quran's repeatedly claims to be a"clear book" (5:15)"easy to understand” (44:58 , 54:22 , 54:32, 54:40) "explained in detail" (6:114),"conveyed clearly", (5:16, 10:15) and with “no doubt” in it (2:1).
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Feb 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands: So yes seek out the people who are way more knowledgeable than you with your 5 years or so of limited understanding.
you contradict the Quran's repeatedly claims to be a"clear book" (5:15)"easy to understand” (44:58 , 54:22 , 54:32, 54:40) "explained in detail" (6:114),"conveyed clearly", (5:16, 10:15) and with “no doubt” in it (2:1).
No you do! The Quran is clear..it is the hearts that are black and can not see.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
so if the Quran is clear........why do I need to ask someone else to explain it to me?
If the Quran is clear........why should I look elsewhere other than Quran?
I know I am not a scholar, but why should I go knock on someones door when you are here telling me this and that and claim to be much more knowledgeable than me, but wont answer me?
Please stop obsessing about my fanny dickhead!
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: so if the Quran is clear........why do I need to ask someone else to explain it to me?
Because that is the way since the beginning of time. The ones who do not know went to the ones who knew. Your way is a innovation.
quote: If the Quran is clear........why should I look elsewhere other than Quran?
Because Allah told you to do so. The Quran is not the only source of information.
quote: I know I am not a scholar, but why should I go knock on someones door when you are here telling me this and that and claim to be much more knowledgeable than me, but wont answer me?
I am not willing to teach you except that what I want to..I told you to go look elsewhere. Khidir did the same to Musa after he was impatient with Musa (AS), so don't be mad.
quote: Please stop obsessing about my fanny dickhead!
You wish. Like I told you. I don't even like Kaffirs they are Najash (impure) don't even let them inside my home.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: so if the Quran is clear........why do I need to ask someone else to explain it to me?
Because that is the way since the beginning of time. The ones who do not know went to the ones who knew. Your way is a innovation.
so accepting the Quran and understanding it is clear and complete as it says it is...is innovation??
quote: If the Quran is clear........why should I look elsewhere other than Quran?
Because Allah told you to do so. The Quran is not the only source of information.[/quote] but the Quran says it is. It says it is clear and it is complete and says what other would you need after this.
quote: I know I am not a scholar, but why should I go knock on someones door when you are here telling me this and that and claim to be much more knowledgeable than me, but wont answer me?
I am not willing to teach you except that what I want to..I told you to go look elsewhere. Khidir did the same to Musa after he was impatient with Musa (AS), so don't be mad.[/quote] who is mad? im not mad, I asked you questions you cant answer thats all, its you that is getting mad
quote: Please stop obsessing about my fanny dickhead!
You wish. Like I told you. I don't even like Kaffirs they are Najash (impure) don't even let them inside my home. [/QUOTE]
insults again? you are adding to your punishments not mine
Did the prophet treat people asking questions like you treat people?
Didn't the prophet marry a Christian, those you call kafir too?
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: insults again? you are adding to your punishments not mine
Did the prophet treat people asking questions like you treat people?
Allah says (translated):
O Prophet! Strive hards against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination. Suratul At-Taubah verse 73
quote: Didn't the prophet marry a Christian, those you call kafir too?
Yes, he did and he married 10 other women. He married women for various reasons many of them had nothing to do with love BTW. Don't be made Allah call Christians Kaffirs also they are not only known with the sole title as People of the Book:
Allah says:
"Laqad kafaral-latheena qaaloo innal laaha Huw Maseehub nu Maryam;"
"Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messia, son of Maryam." Surat Al Maidah verse 17
There are many more but you get the point inshaa Allah.
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Sands, must you make it so painfully obvious that you have no reading comprehension skills.
quote: Originally posted by Somewhere in the Sand quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by of_gold: Sands, what she presents about Islam is the same thing that you present about Islam. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a shame that neither you, strangeways, undercover, or other kaffireen don't know Islaam. Undercover, Strangeways Islaam is not Islaam it is Shia for the most part. They are not Muslims but because you and you elk don't know what Islaam is you are confused. Actually, don't come here pretending like you care about Islaam and how it is presented. Your goal is to discredit Islaam. You are not here to learn about Islaam with the intentions of embracing Islaam and becoming a Muslim. You vainly try to deceive Allah and Muslims, but you are only deceiving yourself.
First: I have never claimed to know Islam. I have stated this time and time again.
Second: If strangeways Islam is not Islam but Shia, then my conclusion is that you are Shia. FYI, Shia believe that they are Muslim. I have a Shia friend who has never advocated what you and strangeways believe is Islam. He is reasonable, educated, and I can discuss anything with him.
Third: I am not an elk, I can read and I can comprehend what I read. You are right that I don't know what Islam is, and once again I will state for your benefit that I have never claimed to know what Islam is. I am simply going by what you tell me Islam is. Granted, I may be confused as to what Islam is but I am not at all confused about your beliefs as you post them "ALL THE TIME" and they are exactly the same as the post that strangeways presents.
Forth: Actually, I don't pretend anything. My goal has never been to discredit Islam. I don't believe that anyone who can actually comprehend what they read would ever draw this conclusion from anything that I have ever posted. From my perspective you are the one who discredits Islam.
Fifth: I am intelligent enough to know that I can't deceive Allah. You make me laugh to post that I am trying to do the impossible. Once again your cleverness or should I say, lack there of is painfully obvious.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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It is "YOUR" presentation of Islam that gives us laymen a bad impression of Islam. Not what she post. She just posts articles. You post your true beliefs. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
She post articles with her hate embedded inside usually in the beginning of the articles or at the end. So stop your lying! You are of the same elk as she is and even though you would hate that I leave you alone, I won't. I will fight you with words that expose your hate for Allah, His Messenger/Prophet and our deen.
No matter if she post out of hate or out of love of Islam, she post the same content that you post. So how do you see me as lying?
I am fully aware that your life and your heart revolves around fighting. At least make your words intelligent instead of resorting to name calling and rantings of "the sky is falling, the sky is falling".
Before I came to this board and saw your presentation of Islam, I thought it was just the few radical terrorist that hold the ideas that you present. Now I see that it is a much broader group from what you have presented and from those who agree with and don't rebuke your presentation of Islam. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
What I show you Islaam in it's pureiest form. There are Millions who believe what I believe and take note it is growing daily. The ranks are increasing daily. Muslims are feed up with people like you, Ayisha, strangeways, undercover, ????, freshsoda and all enemies of Islaam. They can't rebuke the truth. What I quote is from Quran, how can a Muslim refute Quran? How can a Muslim refute authentic Hadeeth? If they did they would be included in your ranks of haters for Islaam. Only haters will refute Quran and Hadeeth!
Fine, I will accept that you are showing me Islam in it's purest form. Why on Earth are you so upset with Strangeways for supporting your view of Islam? Makes no sense to me. You should be happy that she is here giving you such solid support of your beliefs.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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Strangeways version of Islaam is NOTHING like what I live, eat and sleep i.e. Islaam. She is on some wacked out Shia kick.
So if you think we are the same..more power to you.
BTW I love Jihad and support it, Strangeways hates Jihad and does not support it.
I support killing the apostates..Strangeways hates it and does not support it
I support cutting off the hands of a thief strangeways hates it and does not support it.
She is a kaffir why would she love what I love which is Islaam and she hates all that I love..do how in the world do you stay she post the same content as me..you are the one confused or either dumb as doorknob.
Good day!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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Sorry sands but you just look like a foolish boy throwing stones with your post to discredit Christianity. Not one Christian on this board has ever advocated killing anyone in the name of God. --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Your elk don't have to advocate it. It is demonstrate in the daily lives of the Muslims throughout the world. Look at Palestine. Look at Afghanistan. Look at Iraq. Look at Pakistan. Look at Russia. The violence is carried out of those who are of Christan faith. The media may not say Christains but what is the religion and fatih of George W. Bush? What was the religion of his father? What was the religion of Bill Clinton? What was the Religion of Ronald Regan? And a host of others..the answer is Christianity.
Here you go again with name calling.
First: These are not my elks. I did not vote for GB nore do I believe in what he is/has done. I strongly oppose him to the point where Hammer says that I am not American. Yes, he claims to be Christian but his actions are not following the teachings of Jesus. I see what he is doing the same as I see what you support doing....Both Wrong... If it is wrong for one to do it then it is wrong for the other to do it.
quote: quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yet you, a Muslim does on a regular basis. Not only do you advocate killing kafers and apostates, you also advocate rape, child abuse, torture, discriminating against women... What conclusion would you like us to draw from your presentation? --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I advocate an eye for an eye! A tooth for a tooth. As Malik El Shabazz Malcolm X said: You want us to be non-violent when you are being violent? No we will do what we have to do, "By Any Means Necessary! "You want us to put down our guns while you threaten us with your weapons of mass destruction? You rather we throw stones at your tanks and airplanes? Silly thoughts!
Be violent with those who are violent with you!
Excuse me?
I want all to follow what God would have them do and that is to love one another. If everyone did this there would be no need of weapons. "Love is of God, he that loveth is born of God." "Blessed are the peace makers, for they shall be called the children of God".
quote:Yes, you would rather me show you what? Slap me so that I can turn the other cheek? What your elk rape our women and impregnant them in Abu Gharayb prison. You torture our men and degrade them in sexual positions and put leashes on them like dogs. You murder innocent civilians daily..murdering them in their beds while they are sleeping. You deprive them of medicine, food, electricity in the winter like dogs or wild animals in the street. You stop our children from going to school and the men from seeking employment to earn money to take care of their families. You don't do it in the name of Christianity or Judiasm but those who are the offenders of such crimes are in fact Jews and Christians your brethren.
You want me to present Islaam in a nice manner, while you violate my brothers and sisters worldwide..Naw you won't fool me or even try to when the sympathy of of brethern for WE know what evil comes from your hands even when you try to hide it and say it is not from Christianity.
Tell you what you get your elk to act right and stop the oppression of Muslims world-wide and maybe we will stop violence with violence.
I am a pacifist. I don't divide the world into Muslim vs Christian. I dived the world into those who kill and those who want peace. With this division, you are on the side of GW while I am on the side with Muslims who believe that Islam is a religion of peace.
Get over yourself sands.
Posts: 3891 | From: No good deed goes unpunished. | Registered: May 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: insults again? you are adding to your punishments not mine
Did the prophet treat people asking questions like you treat people?
Allah says (translated):
O Prophet! Strive hards against the disbelievers and the hypocrites, and be harsh against them, their abode is Hell, and worst indeed is that destination. Suratul At-Taubah verse 73
quote: Didn't the prophet marry a Christian, those you call kafir too?
Yes, he did and he married 10 other women. He married women for various reasons many of them had nothing to do with love BTW. Don't be made Allah call Christians Kaffirs also they are not only known with the sole title as People of the Book:
Allah says:
"Laqad kafaral-latheena qaaloo innal laaha Huw Maseehub nu Maryam;"
"Surely, in disbelief are they who say that Allah is the Messia, son of Maryam." Surat Al Maidah verse 17
There are many more but you get the point inshaa Allah.
Sands I am not a disbeliever. I believe in One God, I beleive in all prophets from Adam to Muhammed, I believe in the Day of Judgement, I believe in the Angels, how am I considered a disbeleiver? In YOUR terms I am because I dont beleive as you do.
YOU have called Christians Kafir, many many times, YOU have wanted to wage war and kill them as YOU think it says that in Islam, it does NOT. Dont be telling me that I said Allah said it because i didnt, YOU did, YOU try to make out Allah said it, not me. As I pointed out the prophet himself married a Christian woman.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: As I pointed out the prophet himself married a Christian woman. [/QB]
And I just pointed out to you Allah calls them kaffirs..many...many times in the Quran..now what?
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Somewhere in the sands:
quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: As I pointed out the prophet himself married a Christian woman.
And I just pointed out to you Allah calls them kaffirs..many...many times in the Quran..now what? [/QB]
oh sorry, I was reading your Bush English here:
"Don't be made Allah call Christians Kaffirs also they are not only known with the sole title as People of the Book:"
I see now you must mean 'mad' not 'made'.
Allah does not call Christians kafir sands. He calls those who changed what He told them (as you have) and He calls Pagans kafir. The People of the Book are not unbelievers sands.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha:Allah does not call Christians kafir sands. He calls those who changed what He told them (as you have) and He calls Pagans kafir. The People of the Book are not unbelievers sands. [/QB]
He does:
Laqad kafaral-latheena qaaloo innal laaha Huw Maseehub nu Maryam
I told you there are numerous ayats that he calls them kaffirs..forsure they are not Muslims, they are not Mumineen so they must be kaffiroon! Like you!
Posts: 2342 | From: Its not where I'm from but where Im going | Registered: Jul 2007
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posted
Innocent children punished with death in the New Testament!
Revelation 2:22-23 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds. And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.
I think you have missed the point!
This is a warning in advance of what will happen IF the work of the said person do not change, as it says "I will give unto every one of you according to your works," so if she stops doing the "works" she is condemned for by God and do good works then no punishment will take place.
If the warning in not taken any notice of then the punishment will happen as a result of HER badness, God gives her a choice!
barryrob
Posts: 370 | From: England | Registered: Feb 2008
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