posted
What you see on the HIR front page, in the section entitled THE CULTURE OF ISLAM, is a detail of the following painting, which graces the cover of Andrew G. Bostom’s book The Legacy of Jihad: Islamic Holy War and the Fate of non-Muslims. It is a representation of Muhammad's slaughter of the Banu Qurayzah, a Jewish tribe.
The cover illustration is titled “The Prophet, Ali, and the Companions at the massacre of the prisoners of the Jewish tribe of Beni Kuraizah [Banu Qurayzah]”; Author: Bazil (Muhammad Rafi); Published: nineteenth century; Kashmiri, 17 folio 108b. Reproduced by permission of The British Library.[1]
A consensus Muslim account of the massacre of the Qurayzah has emerged as converyed by classical Muslim scholars of hadith (putative utterances and acts of Muhammad, recorded by pious Muslim transmitters), biographers of Muhammad’s life (especially Ibn Ishaq), jurists, and historians.[2] This narrative is summarized as follows: Alleged to have aided the forces of Muhammad’s enemies in violation of a prior pact, the Qurayzah were subsequently isolated and besieged. Twice the Qurayzah made offers to surrender and depart from their stronghold, leaving behind their land and property. Initially they asked to take one camel load of possessions per person, but when Muhammad refused this request, the Qurayzah asked to be allowed to depart without any property, taking with them only their families. However, Muhammad insisted that the Qurayzah surrender unconditionally and subject themselves to his judgment. Compelled to surrender, the Qurayzah were led to Medina. The men, with their hands pinioned behind their backs, were put in a court, while the women and children were said to have been put into a separate court. A third (and final) appeal for leniency for the Qurayzah was made to Muhammad by their tribal allies the Aus. Muhammad again declined, and instead he appointed as arbiter Sa’d Mu’adh from the Aus, who soon rendered his concise verdict: The men were to be put to death, the women and children sold into slavery, the spoils to be divided among the Muslims.
Muhammad ratified the judgment stating that Sa’d’s decree was a decree of God pronounced from above the Seven Heavens. Thus some six hundred to nine hundred men from the Qurayzah were led on Muhammad’s order to the Market of Medina. Trenches were dug, and the men were beheaded; their decapitated corpses were buried in the trenches while Muhammad watched. Male youths who had not reached puberty were spared. Women and children were sold into slavery, a number of them being distributed as gifts among Muhammad’s companions. According to Muhammad’s biographer Ibn Ishaq, Muhammad chose one of the Qurayzah women (Rayhana) for himself. The Qurahzah’s property and other possessions (including weapons) were also divided up as additional ‘booty’ among the Muslims. The following details have been chronicled consistently by Muslim sources: The arbiter (Sa’d Mu’adh) was appointed by Muhammad himself; Muhammad observed in person the horrific executions; Muhammad claimed as a wife a woman (Rayhana) previously married to one of the slaughtered Qurayzah tribesmen; the substantial material benefits (i.e. property, receipts from the sale of the enslaved) that accrued to the Muslims as a result of the massacre; the extinction of the Qurayzah.
Abu Yusuf (d. 798), the prominent Hanafi jurist who advised the Abbasid caliph Harun al-Rashid (d. 809), made the following observations about the Qurayzah massacre in his writings on jihad:
“Whenever the Muslims besiege an enemy stronghold, establish a treaty with the besieged who agree to surrender on certain conditions that will be decided by a delegate, and this man decides that their soldiers are to be executed and their women and children taken prisoner, this decision is lawful. This was the decision of Sa’ad b., Mu’adh in connection with the Banu Qurayzahh ... it is up to the imam to decide what treatment is to meted out to them and he will choose that which is preferable for religion and for Islam. If he esteems that the execution of the fighting men and the enslavement of their women and children is better for Islam and its followers, then he will act thus, emulating the example of Sa’ad b. Mu’adh.”[3]
As reported by M.J. Kister, al-Mawardi (d. 1072), another eminent Muslim jurist from Baghdad, characterized the slaughter of the Qurayzah as a religious duty incumbent on Muhammad. Kister quotes al-Mawardi as follows: “[I]t was not permitted (for Muhammad) to forgive (in a case of) God’s injunction incumbent upon them; he could only forgive (transgressions) in matters concerning his own person.”[4]The notion that this slaughter was sanctioned by God as revealed to Muhammad was, according to Kister, reflective of “the current (as of 1986) Sunni view about the slaughter of the Banu Qurayzah.”[5]
W.H.T. Gardiner, also relying exclusively upon Muslim sources characterizing the slaughter of the Qurayza, highlights the pivotal role that Muhammad himself played in orchestrating the overall events:
“The umpire who gave the fatal decision (Sa’ad) was extravagantly praised by Muhammad. Yet his action was wholly and admittedly due to his lust for personal vengeance on as tribe which had occasioned him a painful wound. In the agony of its treatment he cried out -- ‘O God, let not my soul go forth ere thou has cooled my eye from the Bani Quraiza.’ This was the arbiter to whose word the fate of that tribe was given over. His sentiments were well-known to Muhammad, who appointed him. It is perfectly clear from that that their slaughter had been decreed. What makes it clearer still is the assertion of another biographer that Muhammad had refused to treat with the Bani Quraiza at all until they had ‘come down to receive the judgment of the Apostle of God.’ Accordingly, ‘they came down’; in other words put themselves in his power. And only then was the arbitration of Sa’ad proposed and accepted -- but not accepted until it had been forced on him by Muhammad; for Sa’ad first declined and tried to make Muhammad take the responsibility, but was told ‘qad amarak Allahu takhuma fihim’ ‘Allah has commanded you to give sentence in their case.’ From every point of view therefore the evidence is simply crushing that Muhammad was the ultimate author of this massacre.”[6]
In the immediate aftermath of the massacre, the Muslims benefited substantially from the Qurayzah’s assets, which they seized as booty. The land and property acquired helped the Muslims gain their economic independence. The military strength of the Muslim community of Medina grew because of the weapons obtained, and the fact that captured women and children taken as slaves were sold for horses and more weapons, facilitating enlargement of the Muslim armed forces for further conquests. Conversely, the Jewish tribe of the Qurayzah ceased to exist.
Finally, the Farsi text that borders the original illustration (above and below, but not reproduced on the cover art due to space constraints), apropos of its Persian Shiite context, focuses on the exploits of Ali:
“Ali, who is the successor of God on the earth, and known to fight with a double edged sword, ordered the warriors to cut off the heads of the nonbelievers. Zobair assisted him in finishing this job. Ali also ordered the distribution of the captives and their property [i.e. the ‘booty’] among the Muslims, in accord with Sa’ad (b. Mu’adh)’s [see above] decision regarding the fate of the defeated Jews [i.e., the Qurayzah]. After the battle [and executions], Ali ordered everyone [of the Muslims] to return home. Sa’ad (b. Mu’adh) who had been very anxious during the battle, was now happy and praised God upon completion of his task. Then [later] they [i.e., the Muslims] celebrated and enjoyed beautiful women.”[7]
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
So many Muslims have refused the hadiths and Mohammed's biography for the unbelievable stories that defame & degrade the prophet. Now they are following only half of Islam which is Quran and are biting their fingers to find an answers in Quran alone for a questions like, what are the steps of prayers and haj ritual, zakat percentage? God help them to know the truth soon. He put his magic keyword in Quran as Mohammed's claimed it was first word revealed to him, with this word Muslims will discover the truth. The word is "READ"
Jesus said in John 5:39
"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me"
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: So many Muslims have refused the hadiths and Mohammed's biography for the unbelievable stories that defame & degrade the prophet. Now they are following only half of Islam which is Quran and are biting their fingers to find an answers in Quran alone for a questions like, what are the steps of prayers and haj ritual, zakat percentage? God help them to sknow the truth soon. He put his magic keyword in Quran as Mohammed's claimed it was first word revealed to him, with this word Muslims will discover the truth. The word is "READ"
Jesus said in John 5:39
"You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me"
What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran and all those things can be found in there! Prayer, zakat, hajj, wudu are all IN Quran and nothing else is needed to show anyone 'how'. Anything with 'how' that is not IN Quran was 'invented' later. yes the word is READ as in READ the Quran and think as it tells you to. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
Thank you for calling my opinion by rubbish. However, how the prayers and Haj would be performed according to Quran alone? Islam has two sources, Quran and sunnah, Without the Sunnah, Islam is not complete, without the Quran, Islam is not complete. http://www.islamweb.net/Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Thank you for calling my opinion by rubbish. However, how the prayers and Haj would be performed according to Quran alone? Islam has two sources, Quran and sunnah, Without the Sunnah, Islam is not complete, without the Quran, Islam is not complete. http://www.islamweb.net/
I called your claim about following half of Islam by following Quran only rubbish.
The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets. The Quran clearly says to follow the religion of Abraham many times. Anything brought in to claim there was something else revealed besides the book which says it is complete and fully detailed is not part of the Islam God was talking about and is an addition. Prayer and hajj are clearly in there and any 'ritual' that was added later is not from God.
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As you became aware that I am ex muslim, you can understand that I am fully aware about what you are saying. I had time when I was trying to follow Quran alone, but I turned to be a strange Muslim into my big family and it was the beginnig to a long story to my convert later. prayers and Haj are mentioned by name, but how it can be performed according to Quran?
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: As you became aware that I am ex muslim, you can understand that I am fully aware about what you are saying. I had time when I was trying to follow Quran alone, but I turned to be a strange Muslim into my big family and it was the beginnig to a long story to my convert later. prayers and Haj are mentioned by name, but how it can be performed according to Quran?
Then you know Quran mentions bowing and prostration and timings regarding prayer, it also mentions reciting what you know of Quran and reflecting on its verses. This is what God asks for and does not even mention the word Raka and also says not to mention any other besides God. Anything else is not from God. the meaning of it all is submission to God alone. Hajj mentions going round the house and reciting Quran and a pilgrimage, it also mentions this is for everyone and that no one should be barred from this, is this how it is now? no. I don't have much time now, have to start work in a minute. Your problem may have been trying to find what you DID as a sunni in Quran assuming that it is. Try looking at what God said and leaving what you were taught as a sunni outside. Quran is fully detailed, the details are not as an appendix by Bukhari or even Muhammed.
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posted
Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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yes Froshoda it seems you are right..from the link you posted..
Actually, Sunnah is so important that without it one cannot fully understand the Quran and Islam, or be able to apply it to his life. Both of these sources guide us to the right path.
It's funny because I got into a debate a while back and some of the other Muslims were trying to distance the Hadiths from Islam..
I also recieved a message from an unknown Muslim on Youtube who tried to challenge me saying Jesus never said he was the Son of God..LOL...I schooled him and he never replied back.
Matt 26:63
63 But Jesus kept silent. And the high priest answered and said to Him, "I put You under oath by the living God: Tell us if You are the Christ, the Son of God!" 64 Jesus said to him, "It is as you said. Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming on the clouds of heaven."Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
These Muslims talk about Abraham but had no problem massacuring his people the Banu Quarza. So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
LMAO, its a bunch of Madness, Abraham was a Hebrew the Torah which Predates the Koran says nothing about Islam or a Koran.
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I am not a 19er fresh. I do not follow Rashad Khalifa and I do not believe there is a mathematical system in Quran based in the number 19 if 2 verses are removed.
one thing in there that stuck out at me is the numbers in Arabic, there was a numbering system pre Muhammed, look it up.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
Sorry ourluxor I had always assumed you had read Quran, obviously not.
Islam = submission to God Muslim = one who submits to God
Abraham was a friend of God and submitted to God Alone, as did all other prophets. He was not a Jew or a Christian, he was a Muslim in the true sense of the word.
Moses was given Torah and also taught submit to God. people are ignorant and want to worship what they can see like stones, cows, whatever which also carried on in Christianity, you have a cross, a picture, a statue and you turn to it, talk to it, pray to it etc.
Quran is a reminder of what God previously said, what is the point of a reminder of something we are NOT to believe in? We are told to 'follow the religion of Abraham' in 3.95, 2.135, 12.38, 16.123 and more. Verse 42.13 tells you this is the same religion He enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus. This is not a new religion it is the same religion from the same God, part 3 if you like of the whole message. All prophets were Muslims as they all submitted to the One God, the creator, willingly.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
These Muslims talk about Abraham but had no problem massacuring his people the Banu Quarza. So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
LMAO, its a bunch of Madness, Abraham was a Hebrew the Torah which Predates the Koran says nothing about Islam or a Koran.
Abraham was a Hebrew and a Shemite but not an Israelite or a Jew or an Arab. Hebrew and Shemite were from the names of the children of Noah, Shem was the son of Noah and 8 or so generations later came Abraham through the line of Eber who was from the line of Shem. all this was well before the Torah given to Moses but the stories are in there just as they are in Quran.
Islam and Quran are Arabic. Abraham was not an Arab.
Abraham is found in Genesis and you will see there if you read it he submitted to God which in Arabic is 'Muslim'.
Maybe if you tried understanding the differences between nationality, language and religon and look at where it all came from it might make sense.
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posted
The Quran is a reminder that we should revert back to the Old Testament laws.
Obviously the Quran misses the whole point with the Old Testament. The Old is to the New what promise is to fulfillment.
The process works out like this:
1. Long ago, God promises and prophesies a Servant-Messiah and a New Covenant 2. God fulfills his promises and prophecies in Jesus Christ. 3. Now Christians live in a new era of Christ’s salvation and his New Covenant.
Fulfillment entails completion, so the process cannot go on indefinitely.
This is straightforward and unambiguous: promise and fulfillment.
Let’s imagine that I promise to give you a priceless gift of a diamond. Even though it is a free gift and I’m not bound to offer it to you, I write you a promissory note, which obligates me to fulfill my promise (note the word "promise" in "promissory"). A month later, I give you the diamond. My promise has been fulfilled, and the diamond is far better than the promise. You now enjoy the reality of the diamond without any fear that I will change my mind. It is finished. And you are grateful, not confused or insecure. God fulfills his promise and gives us Christ as our salvation and our New Covenant. Now we can benefit from the original promise and its fulfillment.
In Quran Allah sends down one verse, but when circumstances change, he then abrogates or cancels it, replacing it with another verse, which is either similar or better, maybe in the same sura, maybe elsewhere in the Quran. Sura 2:106 says: "Whatever communications [revelations] We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, We bring one better than it or like it"
The Quran’s abrogation process works out like this.
1. Allah sends down a verse. 2. Intervening circumstances emerge or develop. 3. Allah cancels the first verse. 4. He replaces it with another, which may be similar (or "like it") or better.
Since the first four steps depend on circumstances, the steps could potentially go on indefinitely.
Let’s imagine that I give you a priceless gift of a diamond (a Quranic revelation). But then a week later I see you on the street wearing the diamond. Without advance notice I walk up to you, take the diamond away, and replace it with another diamond—maybe of a higher quality (though Sura 2:106 does not guarantee this). The second diamond may be merely "similar to" or "like" the first. My only explanation is that circumstances have changed, so the first diamond must be taken away. How does this make you feel secure? What if other circumstances arise later? Will I take the second diamond from you? Theoretically, the process could go on indefinitely. You are right to question my character and stability. I seem fickle because I am tied down to immediate circumstances that I am unable to anticipate.
This is like Quranic abrogation. A verse is sent down, but in a short time it is canceled and replaced with a similar or better verse after circumstances change. Anyone has a right to question the character and stability of this deity. He seems tied down to immediate circumstances that he is unable to anticipate.
In the Quran, a verse comes down and people receive it and live according to it. Allah commands everyone to fight without advanced notice. There is nothing wrong with not notifying a people of a revelation beforehand. But what happens if the verse is cancelled? Where is the specific promise so that people can expect its fulfillment? Most importantly, where is the fulfillment? Something different from expectation may take place in the human heart. They may be surprised at the change. Why would they not be surprised continually, as they move from one command and abrogation to the next?
This is why the person of Christ is so important in the New Testament promise and fulfillment process. The Old Testament testifies to him, and he fulfills it, so people’s expectations are answered and fulfilled in the New.
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
These Muslims talk about Abraham but had no problem massacuring his people the Banu Quarza. So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
LMAO, its a bunch of Madness, Abraham was a Hebrew the Torah which Predates the Koran says nothing about Islam or a Koran.
Abraham is found in Genesis and you will see there if you read it he submitted to God which in Arabic is 'Muslim'.
Maybe if you tried understanding the differences between nationality, language and religon and look at where it all came from it might make sense.
Show me where I said anything about Nationality. Islam is a religion founded in Arabia by Muhammed Ibn Abdullah in the 6th century.
Moses was given Torah and also taught submit to God. people are ignorant and want to worship what they can see like stones, cows, whatever which also carried on in Christianity, you have a cross, a picture, a statue and you turn to it, talk to it, pray to it etc.
Yeah, just how You Turn to Pray to a Rock housed in a pagan shrine. and worship the Moon.
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
These Muslims talk about Abraham but had no problem massacuring his people the Banu Quarza. So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
LMAO, its a bunch of Madness, Abraham was a Hebrew the Torah which Predates the Koran says nothing about Islam or a Koran.
Abraham is found in Genesis and you will see there if you read it he submitted to God which in Arabic is 'Muslim'.
Maybe if you tried understanding the differences between nationality, language and religon and look at where it all came from it might make sense.
Show me where I said anything about Nationality. Islam is a religion founded in Arabia by Muhammed Ibn Abdullah in the 6th century.
Moses was given Torah and also taught submit to God. people are ignorant and want to worship what they can see like stones, cows, whatever which also carried on in Christianity, you have a cross, a picture, a statue and you turn to it, talk to it, pray to it etc.
Yeah, just how You Turn to Pray to a Rock housed in a pagan shrine. and worship the Moon.
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
These Muslims talk about Abraham but had no problem massacuring his people the Banu Quarza. So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
LMAO, its a bunch of Madness, Abraham was a Hebrew the Torah which Predates the Koran says nothing about Islam or a Koran.
Abraham is found in Genesis and you will see there if you read it he submitted to God which in Arabic is 'Muslim'.
Maybe if you tried understanding the differences between nationality, language and religon and look at where it all came from it might make sense.
Show me where I said anything about Nationality. Islam is a religion founded in Arabia by Muhammed Ibn Abdullah in the 6th century.
Moses was given Torah and also taught submit to God. people are ignorant and want to worship what they can see like stones, cows, whatever which also carried on in Christianity, you have a cross, a picture, a statue and you turn to it, talk to it, pray to it etc.
Yeah, just how You Turn to Pray to a Rock housed in a pagan shrine. and worship the Moon.
Not much I can say to that level of ignorance really.
Yeah there is'nt much you can say because you can't refute an iota of it. You claim Christians and Jews worship cows and Rocks and that we talk to the Cross and worship it.
But don't you Muslims turn to a Rock housed in a once Pagan Shrine and pray to it 5 times a day. Is that not a Crescent Moon on top of those Mosques??
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
These Muslims talk about Abraham but had no problem massacuring his people the Banu Quarza. So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
LMAO, its a bunch of Madness, Abraham was a Hebrew the Torah which Predates the Koran says nothing about Islam or a Koran.
Abraham is found in Genesis and you will see there if you read it he submitted to God which in Arabic is 'Muslim'.
Maybe if you tried understanding the differences between nationality, language and religon and look at where it all came from it might make sense.
Show me where I said anything about Nationality. Islam is a religion founded in Arabia by Muhammed Ibn Abdullah in the 6th century.
Moses was given Torah and also taught submit to God. people are ignorant and want to worship what they can see like stones, cows, whatever which also carried on in Christianity, you have a cross, a picture, a statue and you turn to it, talk to it, pray to it etc.
Yeah, just how You Turn to Pray to a Rock housed in a pagan shrine. and worship the Moon.
Not much I can say to that level of ignorance really.
Yeah there is'nt much you can say because you can't refute an iota of it. You claim Christians and Jews worship cows and Rocks and that we talk to the Cross and worship it.
But don't you Muslims turn to a Rock housed in a once Pagan Shrine and pray to it 5 times a day. Is that not a Crescent Moon on top of those Mosques??
Jari, there is a difference also between Islam and Muslim and I am trying to discuss Islam and not what Muslims do.
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing. 2.177
I was trying to explain the 'something one can see' to worship or as a tool to worshipping as that is how MAN is. And yes muslims do the very same thing and THAT is why I am talking about ISLAM and not Muslims.
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posted
Jari, there is a difference also between Islam and Muslim and I am trying to discuss Islam and not what Muslims do.
According to you Abraham was a Muslim?? I don't understand are you implying the modern Muslim is not a Muslim in the sense of Abraham??
And there is a difference between Christians who worship Pagainsm and Christians who follow Christ and only Christ, and therefore God. You had no problem brushing all christians with one stroke but its a problem when I apply the same to Muslim Idoltry.
I was trying to explain the 'something one can see' to worship or as a tool to worshipping as that is how MAN is. And yes muslims do the very same thing and THAT is why I am talking about ISLAM and not Muslims.
Yeah sure, You just forgot to mention Kabba and the Crescent Moon in your previous Rant because it slipped your mind..how silly of you.
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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posted
Sorry Ayisha, I did read quite a bit of the Quran, but (honestly) I found it so awful that I gave up. Since then I've turned to the likes of this board, hoping that my understanding of that which I did read would be shown to be wrong. However that has not been the case up until now!
Btw, it is utter folly to imagine that Christians talk or pray to a cross or a picture, or anything else for that matter. That is idolatry, and anyone who actually does do that is obviously NOT a Christian.
Christians pray to God, directly. This was made possible because Jesus saved us from our sin, and we all have a priestly duty on behalf of those who have yet to come to the realisation that God loves them unconditionally.
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Just call me Jari: Jari, there is a difference also between Islam and Muslim and I am trying to discuss Islam and not what Muslims do.
According to you Abraham was a Muslim?? I don't understand are you implying the modern Muslim is not a Muslim in the sense of Abraham??
And there is a difference between Christians who worship Pagainsm and Christians who follow Christ and only Christ, and therefore God. You had no problem brushing all christians with one stroke but its a problem when I apply the same to Muslim Idoltry.
I was trying to explain the 'something one can see' to worship or as a tool to worshipping as that is how MAN is. And yes muslims do the very same thing and THAT is why I am talking about ISLAM and not Muslims.
Yeah sure, You just forgot to mention Kabba and the Crescent Moon in your previous Rant because it slipped your mind..how silly of you.
Well it seems it is as I said before. Your level of ignorance and closed mind there is no point me wasting any more of you time.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Sorry Ayisha, I did read quite a bit of the Quran, but (honestly) I found it so awful that I gave up. Since then I've turned to the likes of this board, hoping that my understanding of that which I did read would be shown to be wrong. However that has not been the case up until now!
Btw, it is utter folly to imagine that Christians talk or pray to a cross or a picture, or anything else for that matter. That is idolatry, and anyone who actually does do that is obviously NOT a Christian.
Christians pray to God, directly. This was made possible because Jesus saved us from our sin, and we all have a priestly duty on behalf of those who have yet to come to the realisation that God loves them unconditionally.
Directly 'through Jesus Christ Our Lord, Amen'
That is not directly.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Yes it is! It is only "through" His sacrifice that we can commune with God. God is Jesus anyway, remember the Trinity which you and the others find so difficult to grasp? Well we accept it and believe it, and experience it, and it is only in holding fast to that that we have our assurance of eternity with God.
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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There is only one person so far who has gained victory over death and that person is Jesus.
"He told them, 'This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem. You are witnesses of these things' " (Luke 24:46-48).
"For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance: that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures" (1 Corinthians 15:3, 4).
"I am the resurrection and the life," He said
"If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith" (1 Corinthians 15:13, 14).
The actual bodily resurrection of Christ was attested by hundreds of eye witnesses who saw Him alive in His risen form. And there were witnesses who wrote down for future ages what they saw. John and Matthew, for example, who must be recognized as honest and sane men, were skeptical and incredulous of the resurrection until they actually saw the risen Savior with their own eyes (see Mark 16:9-14).
"There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men" (Matthew 28:2-4).
"I lay down my life—only to take it up again. No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father" (John 10:17, 18).
"On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said, 'Peace be with you!' After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord" (John 20:19, 20).
"And with that he breathed on them and said, 'Receive the Holy Spirit' " (John 20:22).
quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Yes it is! It is only "through" His sacrifice that we can commune with God. God is Jesus anyway, remember the Trinity which you and the others find so difficult to grasp? Well we accept it and believe it, and experience it, and it is only in holding fast to that that we have our assurance of eternity with God.
Jesus is the Son of God. When we pray we pray to the Father, Jesus makes this clear.
Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be thy name; thy kingdom come; thy will be done, in earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive them that trespass against us. And lead us not into temptation; but deliver us from evil. For thine is the kingdom, the power, and the glory, for ever and ever. Amen.Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Never mind the "prayers and Haj": if Muslims follow ONLY Quran, then how could Abraham and Moses be of Islam?
"What rubbish! Islam is NOT Quran 'and sunnah' Islam is in Quran"
"The Quran clearly says that Abraham followed Islam and he did not have the 'sunnah' of Muhammed to follow, as did Moses and other prophets."
These Muslims talk about Abraham but had no problem massacuring his people the Banu Quarza. So, as neither of them had "Quran" either (in which ONLY is Islam), then how could they be Muslim? (Or am I actually going senile after all?)
LMAO, its a bunch of Madness, Abraham was a Hebrew the Torah which Predates the Koran says nothing about Islam or a Koran.
Abraham is found in Genesis and you will see there if you read it he submitted to God which in Arabic is 'Muslim'.
Maybe if you tried understanding the differences between nationality, language and religon and look at where it all came from it might make sense.
Show me where I said anything about Nationality. Islam is a religion founded in Arabia by Muhammed Ibn Abdullah in the 6th century.
Moses was given Torah and also taught submit to God. people are ignorant and want to worship what they can see like stones, cows, whatever which also carried on in Christianity, you have a cross, a picture, a statue and you turn to it, talk to it, pray to it etc.
Yeah, just how You Turn to Pray to a Rock housed in a pagan shrine. and worship the Moon.
Not much I can say to that level of ignorance really.
Yeah there is'nt much you can say because you can't refute an iota of it. You claim Christians and Jews worship cows and Rocks and that we talk to the Cross and worship it.
But don't you Muslims turn to a Rock housed in a once Pagan Shrine and pray to it 5 times a day. Is that not a Crescent Moon on top of those Mosques??
Jari, there is a difference also between Islam and Muslim and I am trying to discuss Islam and not what Muslims do.
It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing. 2.177
I was trying to explain the 'something one can see' to worship or as a tool to worshipping as that is how MAN is. And yes muslims do the very same thing and THAT is why I am talking about ISLAM and not Muslims.
Don't Run honey...answer the questions...Honey Don't Run
Posts: 8805 | From: The fear of his majesty had entered their hearts, they were powerless | Registered: Nov 2007
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: Yes it is! It is only "through" His sacrifice that we can commune with God.
If we do not need a mediator, one of two things must be true. The first, that God is not who he says he is, "…because I, the LORD, am holy" (Leviticus 20:26). Holy entails that God *MUST* punish sin, as God cannot allow sin in His presence. God can't contradict His own nature.
The second possibility is that God is holy, but a mediator is not necessary because no relationship is desired. However it would be against God's nature not to care about us. God's holiness has not been compromised, but neither have his compassion and patience. God is interested in a relationship, even if we are not! He used Moses, the prophets, priests and sacrifices to intercede on behalf of the people and to reconcile the people to himself. And according to his promises, God gave us the ultimate mediator,
"…because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors." (Isaiah 53:12)
Jesus embodies the reach of God across the abyss of human weakness. Untainted by sin, he represents to us God's holiness to man, and reflects our human experience to God.
"For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Messiah Y'shua, who gave himself as a ransom for all…" (1 Timothy 2:5,6)Posts: 213 | Registered: Oct 2010
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For Christians God is Love. That means Jesus is the embodiment of Love. In essence it is Love that IS the mediator between God and man. Without love God is unapproachable.
Muslims too have a mediator between man and God but that mediator is FEAR.
The Bible says: 1 John 4: Everyone who loves has been born of God and knows God. 8 Whoever does not love does not know God, because God is love. 9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 10 This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for our sins. 11 Dear friends, since God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12 No one has ever seen God; but if we love one another, God lives in us and his love is made complete in us.
God is love. Whoever lives in love lives in God, and God in them. 17 This is how love is made complete among us so that we will have confidence on the day of judgment: In this world we are like Jesus. 18 There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.
19 We love because he first loved us. 20 Whoever claims to love God yet hates a brother or sister is a liar. For whoever does not love their brother and sister, whom they have seen, cannot love God, whom they have not seen. 21 And he has given us this command: Anyone who loves God must also love their brother and sister.Posts: 213 | Registered: Oct 2010
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I do not follow Rashad Khalifa and I do not believe there is a mathematical system in Quran based in the number 19 if 2 verses are removed.
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