Old Testament laws were like a "quick-and-dirty" guide. We have a hard time understanding the OT laws, because we have a hard time conceiving of the Ancient Near East life.
For example, we don't understand that the "eye for eye" law would have been considered by the Ancient Near East cultures as a law of mercy - because during the days of blood feuds, if someone takes an eye, you take out the eyes of every single family member of the opponent, etc. That was expected, and that was just how "justice" was accomplished in that culture. So for the people of that culture, eye for eye would be a great restraint, but today, eye for eye seems to be pretty cruel.
One can observe that at different stages of a person's life, depending on the maturity of the person and the level of understanding, we instinctively give different types of punishments. When my 6-year-old daughter lies, I give her a spanking or give her a major time-out. I would say that that's the right thing for a parent to do. When she is 40 and she lies, and I spank her or give her a time-out, I would say that's wrong thing for a father to do. Two exact same sin, yet depending on the maturity of the person that I'm talking to, two very different responses is appropriate.
Perhaps Old Testament is something of a "shaper" of a culture which was being molded in the context of a quick-and-dirty world of Ancient Near East.
I think the fact that God is mindful of where humanity's culture is in its maturity when giving out commandments is something that we can appreciate (and Jesus himself talked about it in regards to OT divorce). So perhaps the questions to be asked is: were the OT laws appropriate given the culture that Israelites were living in? What role did the OT laws play in shaping the culture of Israel to set them apart from the surrounding cultures, where sexual sins were so rampant that it was normalized into religious practices, where child sacrifices were accepted, etc.? What would have been long-term ramification of NOT having these drastic OT punishments in an environment like that?
When comparing this to Islamic laws, I am not sure. I guess if I were to follow the logic above, I would have to say that Islamic laws are also a quick-and-dirty guide to a quick-and-dirty world. It's just that the world has matured and is not so quick-and-dirty anymore - and therefore it seems to us that they are spanking a 40-year-old.
I am a bit reluctant to call Islamic laws "evil" or anything like that - because to me, it's like this (sorry for being so simplistic, but maybe it helps to think about it this way): God has been maturing humanity and giving humanity appropriate laws in the Old Testament.. when trying to guide someone, it's a give-and-take dance, as any parent or mentor would tell you. But Mohammed, enamored with the Old Testament monotheism, has taken a snapshot of the Old Testament and set it in stone. In a way, it's like someone who takes a snapshot of a parent giving a spanking to a 6-year-old, and then sets that in stone as the "way to do it". So whereas the New Testament reveals the purpose of the law and exhorts us to relate to God personally (very much like how a child would grow up to relate to his parent beyond the do's and dont's), Islam is devoid of that understanding of the purpose of the law.
And because Islam is devoid of the true Living God who interacts with humanity, the laws therefore don't do a give-and-take dance anymore. They are simply laws, and therefore they fall into the downward spiral of legalism, which is what we see.
Posts: 213 | Registered: Oct 2010
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Whoever Daniel Kim is/was, he reminds me of the great British Methodist preacher and theological professor; Kingsley Barret, who could enliven the most commonplace language and also expound the most difficult theological premises in the common language that the folk could readily understand and accept.
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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Would you believe an angel would come to Mohammed to repeat the same stories that were mentioned in the bible? Angels may come to inform a human with unique news nobody knows, like the story of Mary and the angel who informed her about the birth of Jesus. Apparently the story of Gabriel’s revelation on Mohammed at a cave became a fantasy to believe. I can imagine when Mohammed was going to the Jews telling them the story of Moses or Joseph and saying it was revealed by an angel while the Jews they have the same stories in details hundred years before. I believe it was really funny.
Quran 25:5
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
Or the bukhari hadith
Volume 4, Book 54, Number 490: Narrated 'Aisha:
Magic was worked on the Prophet so that he began to fancy that he was doing a thing which he was not actually doing. Bukhari hadithPosts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Would you believe an angel would come to Mohammed to repeat the same stories that were mentioned in the bible? Angels may come to inform a human with unique news nobody knows, like the story of Mary and the angel who informed her about the birth of Jesus. Apparently the story of Gabriel’s revelation on Mohammed at a cave became a fantasy to believe. I can imagine when Mohammed was going to the Jews telling them the story of Moses or Joseph and saying it was revealed by an angel while the Jews they have the same stories in details hundred years before. I believe it was really funny.
Quran 25:5
And they say: "Tales of the ancients, which he has caused to be written: and they are dictated before him morning and evening."
yes you would expect something new rather than a confirmation of what went before it wouldn't you. Anyone would think it was the same God even!
12.111 There is, in their stories, instruction for men endued with understanding. It is not a tale invented, but a confirmation of what went before it,- a detailed exposition of all things, and a guide and a mercy to any such as believe
10.37 This Qur'an is not such as can be produced by other than Allah; on the contrary it is a confirmation of (revelations) that went before it, and a fuller explanation of the Book - wherein there is no doubt - from the Lord of the worlds.
5.46 And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
2.97 Say: Whoever is an enemy to Gabriel-for he brings down the (revelation) to thy heart by Allah's will, a confirmation of what went before, and guidance and glad tidings for those who believe,-
4.47 O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out.
Anyone with half a brain can see that in the majority of Quran is confirmation of what God had sent before it. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Anyone with half brain would realize that Jesus said I came to FULLFIL the law, so there is nobody later would come to CONFIRM what was already fullfiled. And at least if someone would claim that, he should be Jew as well, not Arabic who came to confirm a revelation was written in Aramic and Greek language. Bahá’u’lláh the founder of Bahai religion, claimed to be the fulfillment of the covenant established by all of the prophets of the past. Why you didn't believe in him as God's messenger to confirm the previous revealtion. Try to use your half brain to find out that there is nothing called confirmation to God's message which was already fullfiled by Jesus. Muslims believe that Mohammed had magic was worked on him, so he began to fancy that he was doing a thing which he was not actually doing, same how he imagined angel Gabriel talking with him in a cave. Why God would sent such person like that to confirm his message, unless that person was wrongly claiming so?
fulfil US, fulfill [fʊlˈfɪl] 1. to bring about the completion or achievement 2. to finish or reach the end of
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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How is the Quran considered to be Muhammad's (pbuh) only miracle when it is confirming what was already with you and what came before? Shouldn't it be considered a paraphrase since it is not a translation?
posted
Where is this confirmation to Christianity for example, if Islam contradicts with it, Islam : -Do not believe in the Trinity -Jesus is a Prophet and a servant of God. -Jesus was neither crucified nor killed by the Jews -All mankind is born pure and he/she is responsible for his or her own sins and not someone else's. -All the Prophets, from Adam are pure and sinless. -Name of God is Allah neither yahweh nor Elohim nor father as Christianity -Holiday is friday instead of Saturday or sunday.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: How is the Quran considered to be Muhammad's (pbuh) only miracle when it is confirming what was already with you and what came before? Shouldn't it be considered a paraphrase since it is not a translation?
who said Quran was considered Muhammeds only miracle? why does a prophet have to have a miracle anyway? What was Abrahams, Noahs, Jacobs etc etc?
Didn't Jesus confirm what was already with you?
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Where is this confirmation to Christianity for example, if Islam contradicts with it,
It confirms what GOD sent before, not what people have changed it INTO now.
quote:Islam : -Do not believe in the Trinity
Neither did anyone else until 325ad
quote:-Jesus is a Prophet and a servant of God.
Yes, of mine own self I can do nothing. He was a servant of God.
quote:-Jesus was neither crucified nor killed by the Jews
You claim he is alive anyway!
quote:-All mankind is born pure and he/she is responsible for his or her own sins and not someone else's.
I know! thats a killer isn't it? How is that LOGICAL at all huh?
quote:-All the Prophets, from Adam are pure and sinless.
That is not in Quran
quote:-Name of God is Allah neither yahweh nor Elohim nor father as Christianity
Scratching the bottom of the barrel there, do you think God only does Hebrew and Aramaic? Alah WAS in the orignial bible, Eloi, Alah, Hebrew, Arabic. Aborigine call Him Aknatu, literally the one with no anus. Still means the creator. You will be saying next that if English was ok with Jesus its ok with you
quote:-Holiday is friday instead of Saturday or sunday.
Now that really IS the bottom of the barrel. There is actually nothing in Quran about Friday and there is mention of the Jews changing the sabbath, so they must have changed it from Saturday to Sunday and Muslims took Friday. Sabbath is Saturday in Judaism, that is what Jesus followed, or are they wrong too and it should all be Sunday we toddle off and pray one day a week? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: There is actually nothing in Quran about Friday
I really couldn't hold myself to not reply to this point, there is sura no 62 Al-Jumuah which is friday in English and verse 9
" O you who have believed, when [the adhan] is called for the prayer on the day of Jumu'ah [Friday], then proceed to the remembrance of Allah and leave trade. That is better for you, if you only knew"
And you are saying there is nothing about friday. Just you showed how much knowledge in Islam you have
In 325, the council did not create the doctrine of the deity of Christ (as is sometimes claimed) but it did settle to some degree the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Ayisha: There is actually nothing in Quran about Friday
I really couldn't hold myself to not reply to this point, there is sura no 62 Al-Jumuah which is friday in English and verse 9
" O you who have believed, when [the adhan] is called for the prayer on the day of Jumu'ah [Friday], then proceed to the remembrance of Allah and leave trade. That is better for you, if you only knew"
And you are saying there is nothing about friday. Just you showed how much knowledge in Islam you have
And I thought you knew Arabic.
jeem Meem 'Ayn: To collect or gather, bring together, to contract, assemble or congregate, unite or connect or form a connection, bring into a state of union, reconcile or conciliate, put on a thing [such as clothing article], to compose/arrange/settle, to pray in congregation, determine/resolve/decide upon a thing, agree or unite in opinion, prepare or make a thing ready, dry up a thing, conspire or league with another, coexist with one, to be compact/compressed/contracted, exert one's energy, to compromise or comprehend or contain, enter or go into, to meet or be in company with another.
Do you see Friday in there?
It means gathering. In the 128 instances of this root being used in Quran it is only translated as 'Friday' once where it speaks of the 'day' of gathering.
quote:In 325, the council did not create the doctrine of the deity of Christ (as is sometimes claimed) but it did settle to some degree the debate within the Early Christian communities regarding the divinity of Christ.
That is a matter of opinion in which yours differs from mine. Study the history of this time, it is very clear to see what happened. Read some of the texts that were abandoned during this time, it gives a much clearer picture by disciples that were actually WITH Christ during his life which is different to the stuff from Paul who was NOT with him during his life.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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What is the title of this sura 62 means ? Jeem meem Ayn means gather or collect as you mentioned but in that verse it's Jeem meem Ayn Heh, Jumu`ah (Friday), Muslims gather weekly, on every Friday for group prayer, the Surah title makes this very clear refering to friday. Friday is called Al-Jumu`ah because it is derived from Al-Jam'a. So do you want to understand the root of the word only? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jumu%27ah
Regarding that council, Arius was famous at the beginning of the fourth century. He originated a heresy which was named after him, Arianism. According to Arius, Jesus Christ is not God; even though existing before his birth from Mary, he was created in time.
Arius threatened authentic faith in Christ, declaring that the Logos was not a true God but a created God, a creature "halfway" between God and man who hence remained for ever inaccessible to us. The Bishops gathered in Nicaea responded by developing and establishing the "Symbol of faith" ["Creed"] which, completed later at the First Council of Constantinople
The Council of Nicaea rejected this error of Arius, and in so doing, it expounded and formulated the true doctrine of the Church's faith whic, Affirming that Christ, as the only-begotten Son of God, is of one Being with the Father, the Council expressed, in a formula suited to the Greek culture of the time, the truth which we find in the whole of the New Testament. We know that Jesus spoke of himself as being one with the Father ("I and the Father are one," Jn 10:30). He asserted it before his hearers who, on this account, wished to stone him as a blasphemer (cf. Jn 10:31).
He affirmed it again during his trial before the Sanhedrin, and this resulted in his condemnation to death. From all these taken together it clearly follows that in speaking of Christ as the Son of God, "one in Being with the Father," eternally "begotten not made," the Council of Nicaea merely confirmed a precise truth contained in divine revelation, one which has become a truth of the Church's faith, a basic truth of all Christianity. http://www.vatican.va
Trinity in NT before that council
(Mt 28:19) "Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit" .
(John 5:7) "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one"
John (8:16) "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me."
(Mt 5-17) And a voice came from the heavens, saying, 'This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased'"
(Lk 1:32-32) The angel said to Mary "He will be great and will be called Son of the Most High"
(1 John 4:14) And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.
So that Council which you everytime mention it, didn't creat nothing new other than confirming what Jesus said about himself to unite the Chrisitans behind one creed. But of course Muslims scholars used to use such events and misguide Muslims who don't like reading and depending on verbal knowledge.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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