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A demonstrator has been killed and several others injured as more than 200 Orthodox Coptic Christian protesters clashed with Egyptian police over the refusal of permission for a new church.
Al Jazeera has learned that the Christian protester was killed after being shot by the security forces.
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Wednesday, November 24, 2010 Bad Day In Omraneya
In what is considered the biggest clash between the security forces and the Egyptian Christians from along time , ugly violent clashes erupted today from the morning in the crowded Omraneya district in the morning. We got as usual two versions of the story. According to the unofficial version of the story the Christians were building a service building supplement to the Church in the area , there was some problem about the permits and the Giza governorate insisted that they should not build the supplement building without a permit , yesterday according to the Christians the Police attacked the place and used tear gas bombs inside the Church “The Virgin and angel Mikhail” which angered the Christians naturally and made them protest violently today. According to the official version of the story a group of Egyptian Christians protested in front of the Giza governorate building at Al Ahram district, they attacked the building and tried to enter it by force. In return the police had to defend the building and clashed violently with the protesters that were using Molotov bottles. The governor says that he gave the permit for a supplement building yet the Church decided to turn it in to another Church with no respect to the legal procedures. The mainstream media is adopting this version for sure. Due to the excusive use of violence and constant lying habit the official version of the story will be disbelieved. Church representatives came immediately to calm down the angry protesters , there is no official statement issued from the Church as far as I know but Naguib Gabriel who identifies himself as the Church’s attorney attacked the Police , Governorate and the regime altogether on Al Jazeera from short time on air. A 19 years old Christian boy was killed in the clash according to the official reports but I am receiving information that there are other 3 victims. According to reports about 23 to 40 are injured including Police leaderships. 93 protesters have been detained. “Some are saying 105 detainees”. Some are estimating the protesters by 3,000 Christians. According to news reports the Muslims in the area supported the Christians , this is the Omraneya populated area where all citizens alike suffer from the the bad treatment of the Police , the Omraneya police station used to be the worst police station when it comes to reputation before losing the infamous title to the Sidi Gaber Police station. The injured protesters are being transferred to the Um Al Masryeen hospital where their families protested in front of the hospital objecting the administration’s order to suspense visitation for the time being. Before someone speaks about repression against Christians in Egypt , you must know that this is the old police treatment we are being used to in Egypt , check the videos in this blog , check how the Egyptian police treats protesters in general in video and you will know that this is the usual average humiliation. The consequences of what happened today will not severe for the regime, the elections will be held on next Sunday and after what has happened today the NDP has lost the Christian vote at least in the populated Omraneya area. I do not know if the Giza governor will continue in his position especially that he is defending his decisions and the security.
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All this terror because Christians want to build a church, not enough in every corner there is mosque and hundreds noisy speakers on minarets, but they don't give rights to other to pray as well. Nothing new, if prophet of Islam exiled Christians and Jews from Arabic peninsula and Quran call Christians by kafirs, sure this is the result.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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Again the same word KAFARA, it's the past simple tense of(Kufr)(Kafara)(Yakfur) the noun is (Kafir). Would you ask your Egyptian husband to explain it for you? It seems you are blindly reading Quran, as before you was debating about friday in Quran and translate it as combine, now another issue. What copy of Quran you have?
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Surah al-Ma'idah 5:17
"In blasphemy indeed are those that say that God is Christ the son of Mary. ..."
That word between brackets says(KAFARA), which means KAFIR.
In Surah 5:73
"They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah.."
Again the same word KAFARA, it's the past simple tense of(Kufr)(Kafara)(Yakfur) the noun is (Kafir). Would you ask your Egyptian husband to explain it for you? It seems you are blindly reading Quran, as before you was debating about friday in Quran and translate it as combine, now another issue. What copy of Quran you have?
Of course they are kafir, anyone who believes that God has a son or that God is part of some 3 in 1 Godhead is Kafir, but that does NOT include all Christians. Anyone that believes Mary gave birth to GOD, the Creator, is kafir. Not ALL Christians DO believe that.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ahaa, now you will find another exit.Why you said before that Quran doesn't call them Kafir?? I am wondering how you understand Quran. You are really funny and make entertainment to this dead forum by your replies. May be Quran talks about Christians in planet Mars.
So would you explain this verse Quran (9:123)?
"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers ( Kufar) who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him" يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُواْ قَـٰتِلُواْ ٱلَّذِينَ يَلُونَكُم مِّنَ ٱلۡڪُفَّارِ وَلۡيَجِدُواْ فِيكُمۡ غِلۡظَةً۬ۚ وَٱعۡلَمُوٓاْ أَنَّ ٱللَّهَ مَعَ ٱلۡمُتَّقِينَ
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Ahaa, now you will find another exit.Why you said before that Quran doesn't call them Kafir?? I am wondering how you understand Quran. You are really funny and make entertainment to this dead forum by your replies. May be Quran talks about Christians in planet Mars.
Exit? what are you on?
You said Quran calls Christians Kafir, it does not and the verses YOU posted call those who believe a human woman gave birth to God the creator of the entire universe or that the creator of the entire universe had a human son. This shows that it is not quite CLEAR who believes what in your 'Christianity' as some say son, some say God, and there ARE Christians that think neither and know that the CREATOR of the entire universe is not a MAN nor did he need to 'have a human son' to get any message across.
So you are wrong, Quran does not call ALL Christians kafir just for being Christian, only those that think God the creator of the entire universe was born of a woman AFTER creating the entire universe, or that GOD the creator of the entire universe came as a man to be persecuted and nailed to a cross for the sins of humanity that GOD the creator of the entire universe created in the first place.
quote:So would you explain this verse Quran (9:123)?
"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers ( Kufar) who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him"
fight against those that are trying to tell you that God was born of a woman or that God is a man. Obviously against something that is trying to make you believe their way. Be adamant in your faith.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Second Christian protester dies after Cairo church clashes
CAIRO — A Coptic man shot and wounded in clashes with police in Cairo this week over thwarted plans to build a new church died in hospital on Friday, a security official said.
Milad Mikhail, 24, died in hospital after two unsuccessful operations on a stomach wound.
He was the second protester to lose his life as a result of the clashes; the other, a 19-year-old youth, was shot dead during the Wednesday incident....
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"You said Quran calls Christians Kafir, it does not and the verses YOU posted call those who believe a human woman gave birth to God the creator of the entire universe or that the creator of the entire universe had a human son. This shows that it is not quite CLEAR who believes what in your 'Christianity' as some say son, some say God, and there ARE Christians that think neither and know that the CREATOR of the entire universe is not a MAN nor did he need to 'have a human son' to get any message across.
So you are wrong, Quran does not call ALL Christians kafir just for being Christian, only those that think God the creator of the entire universe was born of a woman AFTER creating the entire universe, or that GOD the creator of the entire universe came as a man to be persecuted and nailed to a cross for the sins of humanity that GOD the creator of the entire universe created in the first place."
Ayisha, in your wisdom, please could you tell us what a Christian does believe? And, while you're about it, exactly what you think it is which has driven and empowered Christians, with fearless diligence and sheer hard work, to so greatly improve the lot of their fellow men (and women) here on earth?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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Ayisha, in your wisdom, please could you tell us what a Christian does believe?
Like I said SOME believe Jesus was God in the flesh, SOME believe Jesus was the SON of God and SOME believe he was neither and SOME believe he was BOTH. So asking 'what a Christian believes' cannot be answered unless you specify which SECT.
quote:And, while you're about it, exactly what you think it is which has driven and empowered Christians, with fearless diligence and sheer hard work, to so greatly improve the lot of their fellow men (and women) here on earth?
huh?
fearless diligence and sheer hard work in parts of Africa exchanging food for the starving for their belief in Jesus?
fearless diligence and sheer hard work in killing anyone they have seen as blasphemous and burning 'witches'?
fearless diligence and sheer hard work to improve the lot of fellow men and women comes from many people and many faiths, not just Christians. Surely you can't be saying that they do all this BECAUSE they believe Jesus is GOD or the SON of God?
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What a pointless reply, Ayisha! It's the same as those who attack your beloved Islam as a wicked expansionist movement which converts by force, and whom you regularly speak against. As long as you carry on muddying the waters with this sort of silly attack, you will never be able understand. But, then again, we all know that you have closed your mind to anything except the forlorn hope that your goodness will outweigh your less than goodness, and that Muhammad will remember you!
"GOD the creator of the entire universe came as a man to be persecuted and nailed to a cross for the sins of humanity"
There you are, those are your words, Hallelujah! Those of us who have really taken these words to heart don't have to worry as to whether we have been good enough; we know we haven't, but God in Jesus has forgiven us and welcomes us as sons and daughters.
I like to quote hymns, because they speak of modern man's experiences of God.
"Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of Glory Divine!"
That's what we have Ayisha: Blessed Assurance, do you have anything to equate to that in your Quran?
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: By your description I am a KAFIR.
that is Quran's description Doro, that is what God said. That is also the first commandment, to not worship any other but God and not join partners with Him
quote:So what does that mean to someone who follows the Quran?
Not quite sure what you mean here.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: What a pointless reply, Ayisha! It's the same as those who attack your beloved Islam as a wicked expansionist movement which converts by force, and whom you regularly speak against.
And I will continue speaking against. One cannot be converted by force. You think that forcing someone to say they follow Islam means anything at all to God? You think He doesn't see into the hearts of people no matter what they may SAY with their mouths?
quote:As long as you carry on muddying the waters with this sort of silly attack, you will never be able understand.
muddying waters? what attack? I was clarifying that what freshsoda said was wrong, I wasn't attacking anyone or anything.
quote: But, then again, we all know that you have closed your mind to anything except the forlorn hope that your goodness will outweigh your less than goodness, and that Muhammad will remember you!
Wrong, it's nothing at all to do with Muhammed, it's not his choice and he is not God. That is the difference between us. My mind is far from closed and very logical. It is totally illogical to me to think I can do as I like but will not pay for the wrongs I do because God has already paid for it with his life. THAT is totally illogical to me and always has been.
quote:"GOD the creator of the entire universe came as a man to be persecuted and nailed to a cross for the sins of humanity"
There you are, those are your words, Hallelujah! Those of us who have really taken these words to heart don't have to worry as to whether we have been good enough; we know we haven't, but God in Jesus has forgiven us and welcomes us as sons and daughters.
sons and daughters of who? God, Jesus? What about the other begotten sons of God in the bible? what about the sons of God and the daughters of man? what about more than 1 'first born'? Don't you ever THINK what it really means?
Again it is totally illogical that the creator of the universe and everything in it is a MAN and that He gave rules then to come as a MAN and pay the price as He knows we can't keep to those rules. Your mind is closed to how illogical this is, not mine.
quote:I like to quote hymns, because they speak of modern man's experiences of God.
"Blessed assurance, Jesus is mine. Oh, what a foretaste of Glory Divine!"
That's what we have Ayisha: Blessed Assurance, do you have anything to equate to that in your Quran?
Well I hope on that day you find you are right to have that assurance that you are saved through God Himself paying the price for your sins, personally I doubt that. Quran does have plenty of assurance about the afterlife, but logical as God is, we have to work for that. Don't you think that if it was as simple as you think that I and every muslim would change? But it's not as simple as you think. Why do you think I converted in the first place? Because Islam was LOGICAL and made me very VERY aware of what God is, and He is not a MAN.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: By your description I am a KAFIR.
that is Quran's description Doro, that is what God said. That is also the first commandment, to not worship any other but God and not join partners with Him
quote:So what does that mean to someone who follows the Quran?
Not quite sure what you mean here.
Why does your God want you to fight me? Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: By your description I am a KAFIR.
that is Quran's description Doro, that is what God said. That is also the first commandment, to not worship any other but God and not join partners with Him
quote:So what does that mean to someone who follows the Quran?
Not quite sure what you mean here.
Why does your God want you to fight me?
He doesn't The verse freshsoda posted:
"O you who have attained to faith! Fight against those unbelievers ( Kufar) who are near you and let them find you adamant, and know that God is with those who are conscious of Him"
so nothing says to fight you, but to be against you trying to change my faith that I have attained and be adamant in that. If you see that as me fighting you then you are also doing the same thing as you are happy with your faith and are adamant that will not change. Nothing says I have to physically fight you unless you physically attack me.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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29- “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
30- " The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old (Kafru) used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"
So Ayisha, Do you want more clear verses calling Christians and Jews by name as infidels (Kafirs) than these?? according to verse 29, it's an order to fight anybody doesn't believe in God or Mohammed ie(non Muslim) specially Jews and Christians. Btw there was nobody in the Jew's history called Uzair the son of God, only they have the book of Ezra about Judah's history as a province of the Persian empire and Ezra was a high priest. So this historical mistake in Quran prove that it wasn't from God who knows everything.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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"29- “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
This looks pretty clear to me that it says to "fight the people of the book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Not anything about "fight against you trying to change my faith". It's about making us submissive and subdued.
quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Quran S. 9:29-30 Y. Ali
29- “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
I thought you were an Arabic speaker. If you are then you are deliberatly misleading.
Again similar to the other verse you posted and nothing to do with physical fight. The verse also says nothing about jews or christians and Quran is also 'the book', so this is again fighting against those who are adding and subtracting from the religion of God by making things haram that are not, including muslims. If one is physically beaten or whatever you are assuming here, does that then make them 'willingly'
Pay/give/render a satisfaction, make sufficient, pay a debt, to contend, repay/requit/compensate, to recompense, which is what Jizeya is. So if some of the people of the book, which includes jews christians and muslims, are making something haram or halal which God and His apostle did not then fight against that, as in disagree with them, argue it, put them straight, until they retract/apologize/withdraw/render satisfaction from them willingly. It is nothing to do with paying any 'tax' for not being Muslim.
quote:30- " The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old (Kafru) used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!"
So Ayisha, Do you want more clear verses calling Christians and Jews by name as infidels (Kafirs) than these?? according to verse 29, it's an order to fight anybody doesn't believe in God or Mohammed ie(non Muslim) specially Jews and Christians.
Dealt with above, says NOWHERE in that verse Christians and jews by name in Arabic and you KNOW that.
quote: Btw there was nobody in the Jew's history called Uzair the son of God, only they have the book of Ezra about Judah's history as a province of the Persian empire and Ezra was a high priest. So this historical mistake in Quran prove that it wasn't from God who knows everything.
are you quite sure there is nothing, nothing in Ecyclopedia Judaica? i didn't have to look very far to find something. Also found some interesting stuff concerning the dates for Ezra and Nehemiah which actually don't quite match up by 60-100 years, apparently. There was also nothing in jewish history about Jesus son of God but that didn't stop people claiming it.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: "29- “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
This looks pretty clear to me that it says to "fight the people of the book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Not anything about "fight against you trying to change my faith". It's about making us submissive and subdued.
Read my last reply The word translated as 'subdued' is also translated as humiliated, disgraced, small in other parts of Quran.
Sad-Gh-Ra = to be small/little. saaghirun - one who is small/little/subdued/abject or in a state of subjection. saghiir - small. asghar - smaller. saghaar - vileness, contempt, humiliation.
not beated, killed, or anything to do with physical fighting to the point of sumbission, more of proven wrong and humilated for what they had done.
If someone is beated physically they are less likely to feel humiliated and willingly submissive as they would be by being shown they are wrong against God, where they would willingly submit and accept they were wrong. Bear in mind we are talking willing as in the heart on not just the mouth.
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"The death toll is now up to 6." I'm not yet dead CF, only terminally confused (and temporarily struck dumb) by the elasticity of Ayisha's thought patterns.
Posts: 430 | From: luxor | Registered: Apr 2008
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quote:Originally posted by ourluxor: "The death toll is now up to 6." I'm not yet dead CF, only terminally confused (and temporarily struck dumb) by the elasticity of Ayisha's thought patterns.
thank you, I do hope to never have a rigid closed mind Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ayisha, This is one obvious difference between Christianity and Islam. We are commanded to love, forgive, turn the other cheek, while you are commanded to subdued, humiliate, and disgraced, someone who does no harm to another simply for their belief. How can you then turn around and say that there is no compulsion in religion? This IMHO is totally illogical.
Rahala, You think people deserve to be killed for wanting to build a church. Why are you so afraid of a church?
Ayisha, Rahala's statement proves the point of this discussion. There were a large population of people here who felt it inappropriate to build the "ground zero mosque", but I never heard of anyone one who said that those who want to build it deserve to be killed.
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Muslims went crazy when Americans burned the Quaran but ut is OK for Muslims in the UK to have placards saying "british soldiers must die" and then burning our symbolic rememberance poppy. On Rahalas twisted logic they deserve to be killed. Total hypocracy.
Posts: 11097 | From: Cairo | Registered: May 2008
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Originally posted by Ayisha: I thought you were an Arabic speaker. If you are then you are deliberatly misleading. Now I realized how much low IQ you have. You are debating with me about english translation of Quranic texts and accusing me that I mislead by using the Arabic texts. What a funny!! My Arabic is my native language, so better to not comment about my Arabic again.
Again similar to the other verse you posted and nothing to do with physical fight.
Verse 29 started in Arabic by the word (Qital) which come from the word (Qatl) that means (kill) or as they used to translate it (fight). So how there wouldn't be physical fight if the vesre asked to force people of the book to pay Jizya with willing submission, how it would be sumbission without physical fight? you think they would give them chocolate and flowers?!
The verse also says nothing about jews or christians and Quran is also 'the book',
All Muslims in the world know that people of the book in Quran means Jews and Christians, so it seems you are from another planet. Quran that time wasn't yet a book, so stop twisting the words, because you show how illogical is your thinking.
Dealt with above, says NOWHERE in that verse Christians and jews by name in Arabic and you KNOW that.
This is a really the most funniest refute I ever read, verse 9:30 says "The JEWS call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the CHRISTIANS call Christ the son of Allah." http://quran.com/9/30 let your husband read it for you in Arabic وَقَالَتِ (ٱلۡيَهُودُ) عُزَيۡرٌ ٱبۡنُ ٱللَّهِ وَقَالَتِ (ٱلنَّصَـٰرَى) ٱلۡمَسِيحُ ٱبۡنُ ٱللَّهِۖ ذَٲلِكَ قَوۡلُهُم بِأَفۡوَٲهِهِمۡۖ يُضَـٰهِـُٔونَ قَوۡلَ ٱلَّذِينَ ڪَفَرُواْ
are you quite sure there is nothing, nothing in Ecyclopedia Judaica? i didn't have to look very far to find something. Also found some interesting stuff concerning the dates for Ezra and Nehemiah which actually don't quite match up by 60-100 years, apparently. There was also nothing in jewish history about Jesus son of God but that didn't stop people claiming it. Jesus isn't our point here, so don't turn the point to hide that mistake in Quran. Ezra according to jewish encyclopedia was known as Ezra the Priest, so Quran and God of Quran were wrong to claim that Jews called Ezra by son of God.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Originally posted by Ayisha: I thought you were an Arabic speaker. If you are then you are deliberatly misleading. Now I realized how much low IQ you have. You are debating with me about english translation of Quranic texts and accusing me that I mislead by using the Arabic texts. What a funny!! My Arabic is my native language, so better to not comment about my Arabic again.
Now I see how low your IQ is, I was not accusing you of misleading BY using Arabic I was accusing you of misleading WHILE knowing the Arabic.
quote:Again similar to the other verse you posted and nothing to do with physical fight.
Verse 29 started in Arabic by the word (Qital) which come from the word (Qatl) that means (kill) or as they used to translate it (fight). So how there wouldn't be physical fight if the vesre asked to force people of the book to pay Jizya with willing submission, how it would be sumbission without physical fight? you think they would give them chocolate and flowers?!
and you know as well as I do that this also means to fight, so you are misleading here. How can someone be killed UNTIL the pay the jizeya? From verse 28 it is speaking about keeping the polytheists from Masjid al Haram, not letting them come and worship their other gods there.
quote:The verse also says nothing about jews or christians and Quran is also 'the book',
All Muslims in the world know that people of the book in Quran means Jews and Christians, so it seems you are from another planet. Quran that time wasn't yet a book, so stop twisting the words, because you show how illogical is your thinking.
I was answering this claim of yours "according to verse 29, it's an order to fight anybody doesn't believe in God or Mohammed ie(non Muslim) specially Jews and Christians." and the Arabic does not say Christians and Jews as you said it does.
6.114 Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah? - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail."
13.1 A.L.M.R. These are the signs (or verses) of the Book: that which hath been revealed unto thee from thy Lord is the Truth; but most men believe not.
you need more? Quran was called the book.
quote:Dealt with above, says NOWHERE in that verse Christians and jews by name in Arabic and you KNOW that.
This is a really the most funniest refute I ever read, verse 9:30 says "The JEWS call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the CHRISTIANS call Christ the son of Allah." http://quran.com/9/30 let your husband read it for you in Arabic
You obviously had difficulty understanding me. THIS verse does of course say Jews and Christians but the verse about killing them did not. I answered this but you obviously didn't bother doing any research. My answer to this is below
quote:are you quite sure there is nothing, nothing in Ecyclopedia Judaica? i didn't have to look very far to find something. Also found some interesting stuff concerning the dates for Ezra and Nehemiah which actually don't quite match up by 60-100 years, apparently. There was also nothing in jewish history about Jesus son of God but that didn't stop people claiming it. Jesus isn't our point here, so don't turn the point to hide that mistake in Quran. Ezra according to jewish encyclopedia was known as Ezra the Priest, so Quran and God of Quran were wrong to claim that Jews called Ezra by son of God.
do more research.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, This is one obvious difference between Christianity and Islam. We are commanded to love, forgive, turn the other cheek, while you are commanded to subdued, humiliate, and disgraced, someone who does no harm to another simply for their belief. How can you then turn around and say that there is no compulsion in religion? This IMHO is totally illogical.
of course that is, but that is not what it says.
quote:Rahala, You think people deserve to be killed for wanting to build a church. Why are you so afraid of a church?
Ayisha, Rahala's statement proves the point of this discussion. There were a large population of people here who felt it inappropriate to build the "ground zero mosque", but I never heard of anyone one who said that those who want to build it deserve to be killed.
Rahala is NOT representative of Islam or Muslims and nothing he has said has anything to do with Islam or Quran! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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Ayisha, here are your contradictions of your replies.
Verse 29,
Originally posted by Ayisha: Again similar to the other verse you posted and nothing to do with physical fight.
Against Originally posted by Ayisha: I was answering this claim of yours "according to verse 29, it's an order to fight anybody doesn't believe in God or Mohammed ie(non Muslim)
And
Originally posted by Ayisha: so nothing says to fight you, but to be against you trying to change my faith that I have attained and be adamant in that.
Verse 30,
Originally posted by Ayisha: Dealt with above, says NOWHERE in that verse Christians and jews by name in Arabic and you KNOW that.
Against
Originally posted by Ayisha: THIS verse does of course say Jews and Christians but the verse about killing them did not.
Originally posted by freshsoda: Quran call Christians by kafirs, ------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Ayisha:
It doesn't
Against
Originally posted by D_Oro: By your description I am a KAFIR. ------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Ayisha:
that is Quran's description Doro, that is what God said.
And
Originally posted by Ayisha: Of course they are kafir, anyone who believes that God has a son or that God is part of some 3 in 1 Godhead is Kafir, but that does NOT include all Christians.
Posts: 653 | From: Great Manchester | Registered: Apr 2007
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quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Ayisha, here are your contradictions of your replies.
Verse 29,
Originally posted by Ayisha: Again similar to the other verse you posted and nothing to do with physical fight.
Against Originally posted by Ayisha: I was answering this claim of yours "according to verse 29, it's an order to fight anybody doesn't believe in God or Mohammed ie(non Muslim)
And
Originally posted by Ayisha: so nothing says to fight you, but to be against you trying to change my faith that I have attained and be adamant in that.
What contradiction? The second one you posted there is YOUR quote " according to verse 29, it's an order to fight anybody doesn't believe in God or Mohammed ie(non Muslim)" That was YOUR claim which I answered so in what "I" said there is no contradiction.
quote:Verse 30,
Originally posted by Ayisha: Dealt with above, says NOWHERE in that verse Christians and jews by name in Arabic and you KNOW that.
This was about verse 29 as I SAID.
quote:Against
Originally posted by Ayisha: THIS verse does of course say Jews and Christians but the verse about killing them did not.
Again, yes verse 30 DOES say jews and christians but verse 29 in which YOU claim it means KILL does NOT say Jews and Christians.
quote:Originally posted by freshsoda: Quran call Christians by kafirs, ------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Ayisha:
It doesn't
Against
Originally posted by D_Oro: By your description I am a KAFIR. ------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by Ayisha:
that is Quran's description Doro, that is what God said.
And
Originally posted by Ayisha: Of course they are kafir, anyone who believes that God has a son or that God is part of some 3 in 1 Godhead is Kafir, but that does NOT include all Christians.
Again NO contradiction, the fault is in YOUR understanding, or should I say YOUR twisting.
The verse does NOT say that is specifically Jews and Christians, it says ANYONE that worships others beside God or in partnership WITH God is Kafir and that means all those Muslims that WORSHIP Muhammed as well as those christians that say he is 1 of 3 and all those who worship stone idols and trees and money and take anything else as GOD.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, This is one obvious difference between Christianity and Islam. We are commanded to love, forgive, turn the other cheek, while you are commanded to subdued, humiliate, and disgraced, someone who does no harm to another simply for their belief. How can you then turn around and say that there is no compulsion in religion? This IMHO is totally illogical.
of course that is, but that is not what it says.
That is not what, what says? I quoted your explanation of what the Quran says.
quote:Rahala, You think people deserve to be killed for wanting to build a church. Why are you so afraid of a church?
Ayisha, Rahala's statement proves the point of this discussion. There were a large population of people here who felt it inappropriate to build the "ground zero mosque", but I never heard of anyone one who said that those who want to build it deserve to be killed.
quote: Rahala is NOT representative of Islam or Muslims and nothing he has said has anything to do with Islam or Quran!
He is Muslim, so he has to represent at least some Muslims. Apparently there are Muslims in Egypt who are killing Christians so you can't say that he is not representative of Islam or Muslims. And, these sort of things happen fairly often, ie, Teddy Bear incident, Cartoon incident. So your claim that he does not represent Muslims is not based on facts.
Now I do believe and am quite certain that he does not represent all Muslims, yourself included, but you cannot bury your head in the sand and say "this does not represent Muslims", it does, at least a portion of Muslims.
Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Ayisha, This is one obvious difference between Christianity and Islam. We are commanded to love, forgive, turn the other cheek, while you are commanded to subdued, humiliate, and disgraced, someone who does no harm to another simply for their belief. How can you then turn around and say that there is no compulsion in religion? This IMHO is totally illogical.
of course that is, but that is not what it says.
That is not what, what says? I quoted your explanation of what the Quran says.
"simply for their belief"
and that is my explanation of what Quran says is it?
quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: He is Muslim, so he has to represent at least some Muslims. Apparently there are Muslims in Egypt who are killing Christians so you can't say that he is not representative of Islam or Muslims. And, these sort of things happen fairly often, ie, Teddy Bear incident, Cartoon incident. So your claim that he does not represent Muslims is not based on facts.
Now I do believe and am quite certain that he does not represent all Muslims, yourself included, but you cannot bury your head in the sand and say "this does not represent Muslims", it does, at least a portion of Muslims.
In many countries there are Muslims killing Chrisians, chistians killing muslims, muslims killing muslims, christians killing christians.
The difference here is that if I start listing all the christian killings over the last 2000 years or even the ones in US in the last 50 years your exit is 'they are not christians'. I will not do that, I will not say these muslims are not muslim or rahala is not muslim, because only God knows and it is not up to me to make that decision to 'cast out' anyone out and wipe my hands of what is done as you can with wiping your hands of all the atrocities that have been commited in the name of 'Christ'.
Americans are now this minute killing muslims in their own country and the president that sent them said that God told him to do that, he is killing muslims in the name of God as a christian. He is representing christians AND Americans. You cannot bury your head and say this does not represent christians or Americans because it does, no matter how often you say they are not real christians.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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posted
I have never said that they are not Christians. I know that bad things have been done in the name of christianity. Yes, Americans are killing muslims in their own country and I am against it and am not above saying it. I never bury my head in the sand when it comes to this and I openly condemn it. You don't hear me saying that they do not represent christianity. I understand that they do.
What is happening now is about the government trying to justify their actions. More so for oil than against Muslims and they don't use the Bible to justify it. They use the threat of terrorism. Which by the way is a real threat. But, as Mahatma Gandhi said "An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind". I do not believe for one second that religion or threat of terror is the reason for the Iraq invasion.
W did claim that God told him to do this but he did not and cannot use the teachings of Jesus to justify his actions..... These actions are so far against the teachings of Jesus that NO ONE can use him as an example to attack, fight, humiliate, or do anything bad to another. It is IMPOSSIBLE to use the teachings of Jesus to justify violence against another. If we all used Jesus as our example, there would be no fighting, killing, war.
Here is the difference.
Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: "29- “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
This looks pretty clear to me that it says to "fight the people of the book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Not anything about "fight against you trying to change my faith". It's about making us submissive and subdued.
Read my last reply The word translated as 'subdued' is also translated as humiliated, disgraced, small in other parts of Quran.
Sad-Gh-Ra = to be small/little. saaghirun - one who is small/little/subdued/abject or in a state of subjection. saghiir - small. asghar - smaller. saghaar - vileness, contempt, humiliation.
not beated, killed, or anything to do with physical fighting to the point of sumbission, more of proven wrong and humilated for what they had done.
If someone is beated physically they are less likely to feel humiliated and willingly submissive as they would be by being shown they are wrong against God, where they would willingly submit and accept they were wrong. Bear in mind we are talking willing as in the heart on not just the mouth.
quote:posted by Ayisha "simply for their belief"
and that is my explanation of what Quran says is it?
I think that you are trying to say that this battle is a fight within yourself not to change your religion. Is this correct?
Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: "29- “Fight those who believe not in God nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by God and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the religion of Truth , (even if they are) of the People of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued.”
This looks pretty clear to me that it says to "fight the people of the book until they pay the Jizya with willing submission, and feel themselves subdued."
Not anything about "fight against you trying to change my faith". It's about making us submissive and subdued.
Read my last reply The word translated as 'subdued' is also translated as humiliated, disgraced, small in other parts of Quran.
Sad-Gh-Ra = to be small/little. saaghirun - one who is small/little/subdued/abject or in a state of subjection. saghiir - small. asghar - smaller. saghaar - vileness, contempt, humiliation.
not beated, killed, or anything to do with physical fighting to the point of sumbission, more of proven wrong and humilated for what they had done.
If someone is beated physically they are less likely to feel humiliated and willingly submissive as they would be by being shown they are wrong against God, where they would willingly submit and accept they were wrong. Bear in mind we are talking willing as in the heart on not just the mouth.
quote:posted by Ayisha "simply for their belief"
and that is my explanation of what Quran says is it?
I think that you are trying to say that this battle is a fight within yourself not to change your religion. Is this correct?
No, it is about others who try to change your religion for you or for you to change to theirs.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: So you are supposed to fight those who try to change your religion?
I am doing that now against you who keep telling me the benfits, for want of a better word, of following yours. Do you see what I mean? I am remaining adamant in mine. And also for those in MINE who try to make haram or halal that which God did not. See what I mean? Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote: "I think that you are trying to say that this battle is a fight within yourself not to change your religion. Is this correct?"
I don't feel that I am trying to convert you to believe like me. I feel that I am condemning fighting, killing, hating, and humiliating, others.
I do point out that if the world followed the teachings of Jesus then there would be no war, but thats a given. Jesus is the only man who ever lived without sin. Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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quote:Originally posted by D_Oro: Girl, I said that above and you said no.
quote: "I think that you are trying to say that this battle is a fight within yourself not to change your religion. Is this correct?"
I don't feel that I am trying to convert you to believe like me. I feel that I am condemning fighting, killing, hating, and humiliating, others.
I do point out that if the world followed the teachings of Jesus then there would be no war, but thats a given. Jesus is the only man who ever lived without sin.
*bangs head against wall hard* Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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