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Over the past year the arab problem in Europe has become apparent. First in the Netherlands, then the UK and now in France. prediction: within a year the rubber will meet the road and arab immigration to Europe and the United States will stop all together. Deportations will begin as people begin to see that these two cultures, as they exist today, are not compatible. This is the culmination of the insane left wing idea of 'diversity.' The whole concept of a 'society' demands at least some basic adherence to a common value system.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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What's wrong with diversity? Why do you think that people of different cultures or different races don't have or can't have a basic value system in common?
Those riots have to do with the fact those minorities are marginalized and discriminated against. I suppose since blacks rioted here in the US after those LA cops were acquitted, we should deport all black people? It's because they are disenfranchised, not part of the system. If you can't function within it, you resort to tactics outside of it.
I'm not condoning riots at all (because I know that's the first thing you will say). I am just pointing out that the *reason* behind the riots has more to do with economic and social *status* than it does opposing value systems.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Black people in American share our culture, that would be apples and oranges Susan. Typical lefty mind set...make a racial issue out of everything.
There is nothing wrong with diversity within reason. Lets use the extreme to make the point. What about a group of cannibals from the Amazon who wanted to eat people as a part of their religion? That obviously would not work.
There are some economic elements involved, as you say, but how many of those stem from the refusal of these people to become Dutchmen, or Frenchmen etc. Diversity, as it is defined by the left in the west will never work. It is actually a contradiction in terms. Diversity does not make a society stronger, unity does that.
Much of the views that many of us have about these people is learned from watching their conduct. If they became good citizens, and melted in the way every other group has none of us would ever notice them at all.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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This part of what you have just said it’s true. Ian French and have been raised among the Muslim culture in France. The way French and Muslim live is very hard to explain and to understand. Iam going to try to explain. When I said I have been raised among the Muslim culture is not Muslim community, because there is a big difference. In France French and Muslim as well as all other cultures are more mixed than any other European country. When i was at school I have learned a lot about Islam, and how to pray, I also did the Ramadan when i was 16 years old. I also did travel to different Muslim countries with my Muslim friend, I have learned so much from them as well as they have learned so much from me. Then when I was 22 I moved out to England because the economy in France was very bad and to find a job was so difficult. When I arrived in UK I quickly realised how lucky i was to have been raised in the mix culture as in UK People tempt to live by community and nobody knows or understand each other. It is common in London to find some Pakistan people who have been lining in UK for 20 years and still don't know how to speak English. In France it does not often happen. If you ask a black person in UK where he is from, he would probably tells you that he is from Africa or somewhere else but he would not tell you that he is from UK even if he was brown there. In France we do have some French named Mohamed,Ali, or Carlos,and is very difficult for other people to understand that those people are French. I do work with a French engineer named Karim and believe me he is very French, a French Muslim and if you ask him where is from he would tell you straight away Iam French. An other example is the French football team, is very hard for people to understand that they are all French, I know where thy come from, and the way they grew up, as I was raised in the same multi cultures way. When I first traveled to Cairo for business, we were many different nationalities and our Egyptian manger told us that when a French comes to Cairo he is much less surprise or chock by the culture than any other European nationalities, and I know why. The problem in France is more a society problem, and due to the very bad economy of the Country is very hard to find a job there and is even harder for someone who has a different colour than white its true, but is hard for everybody even for white French like me that why I moved out.Iam not trying to say that French are not racist, but it is less Hypocrite, and the mixed of culture that we have built up is unique, and when I see how foreign people live in other European country, Iam very proud to have been raised among so many different cultures.
Posts: 1182 | Registered: Sep 2005
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The riots in France shouldn't really come as surprise; in my view this is what you get when the government leaves the social problems in the impoverished suburbs of northeastern Paris untouched for about 30 years. There is a severe lack of economic opportunity for youths in these areas (unemployment levels in these areas are well above the national average). I can understand many of the young people feeling cheated by the French government. It is a shame that the political rivaly between Villepin & Sarkozy is actually overshadowing the reaction of the government.
Posts: 316 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2001
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Diversity is an association with America and it has nothing to do with Europe so don't put American politics on a European problem.
Muslim are too valuable a resource for USA to do as you indicated since you highly underestimate the true value of American knowhow and ingenuity. Europe may probably do that but Muslims are in France dues to their (France's) occupation of their various countries. As colonials, Algerians and Tunisia (example) under French hegemony, had the right to provisional citizenship (I am sure it has changed now) and under that umbrella, other Muslims were accepted.
It is now obvious that some Europeans are more accepting than other! The Europeans cultural scheme is different from America in that the former is more conservative and at times xenophobic. On the other hand, Islam has not adapted to modernity (the rule) so as a result of, and a lack of social integration of French (as example) society, this chaos is inevitable. French culure, despite this is progressive in some ways that America is not..
American society is far more adaptable and clever, Some laws are passed in secret (democracy) that allow loopholes to be made legal. Most of my freinds are/were illegals and despite that fact, they can come to USA and be successful. So much for immigration laws! They prosper when other American of other hues claim they are not liked!! haha
The common value you tork about in only a recent occurrence. Fifty years ago in USA, some Americans were forbidden to engage in society and laws passed to accomplish this. Even native Americans were not considered true Americans...
Horemheb exclaimed "Black people in American share our culture". This is an outright LIE. In Europe, America is seen as "black culture" - a generic descriptive here. Look at the music, the dress, the 'tork', the attitude. At best America is hybrid culture. A mixing and matching according to one's tastes!
oh gawd, I love America!! haha
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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I think in the US immigrant populations generally end up assimilating after a generation or two, which I gather is not the case in Europe? If not, why not?
As far as African Americans -- I agree with Yazid -- blacks who live in inner city urban environments have hardly anything in common with white suburban Americans, and not much in common with black suburban Americans. Which is why I gave that example in the first place -- african americans are really marginalized in our culture, generation after generation.
Weren't North Africans granted workers' permits after WWII to France to help rebuild the country after its devastation in WWII? And the French always assumed the migrant workers would go back but they didn't?
What I find interesting is many 2nd generation immigrants in Europe still don't speak the native tongue of their new nation. Are they really that isolated?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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yazid, America has a definable culture. Do not let the complexity you see here confuse you. Historians generally define American culture as, "a British culture with a layer of frontier expierence on top." Much of our tolerance derives from our power. That tolerance is blended with a belief in fairness. Germany and Japan were totally destroyed in WW II and in one case nuked because they violated what the American people see as reasonable behavior. All of the various minority groups who have come here have made contributions to our culture but in most cases they were made around the edges of the primary culture. American are tolerant but they can be brutal. We allow millions of our young men to knock the crap out of each other every friday night and teach them that defeat is unacceptable. (high school football). We are the worlds only super power because we work harder than most people and frankly are smarter as a group. Many foreigners make the mistake of listening to left wing yappers and think they are America. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a reason for everything in this world. When you look at America ask yourself why it is what it is. In doing that you will get a much clearer view of America and its culture of acomplishment.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: yazid, America has a definable culture. Do not let the complexity you see here confuse you. Historians generally define American culture as, "a British culture with a layer of frontier expierence on top." Much of our tolerance derives from our power. That tolerance is blended with a belief in fairness. Germany and Japan were totally destroyed in WW II and in one case nuked because they violated what the American people see as reasonable behavior. All of the various minority groups who have come here have made contributions to our culture but in most cases they were made around the edges of the primary culture. American are tolerant but they can be brutal. We allow millions of our young men to knock the crap out of each other every friday night and teach them that defeat is unacceptable. (high school football). We are the worlds only super power because we work harder than most people and frankly are smarter as a group. Many foreigners make the mistake of listening to left wing yappers and think they are America. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a reason for everything in this world. When you look at America ask yourself why it is what it is. In doing that you will get a much clearer view of America and its culture of acomplishment.
Dude, what are you doing here on a weekend?
I do think we are hard working and smart. But I think Americans born here tend to overlook or deny that a lot of our elbow grease and brain power come from immigrants. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: yazid, America has a definable culture. Do not let the complexity you see here confuse you. Historians generally define American culture as, "a British culture with a layer of frontier expierence on top." Much of our tolerance derives from our power. That tolerance is blended with a belief in fairness. Germany and Japan were totally destroyed in WW II and in one case nuked because they violated what the American people see as reasonable behavior. All of the various minority groups who have come here have made contributions to our culture but in most cases they were made around the edges of the primary culture. American are tolerant but they can be brutal. We allow millions of our young men to knock the crap out of each other every friday night and teach them that defeat is unacceptable. (high school football). We are the worlds only super power because we work harder than most people and frankly are smarter as a group. Many foreigners make the mistake of listening to left wing yappers and think they are America. Nothing could be further from the truth. There is a reason for everything in this world. When you look at America ask yourself why it is what it is. In doing that you will get a much clearer view of America and its culture of acomplishment.
Left wing yappers are far from the truth? Lets try right wing nut jobs! LOL! This america is diverse in opinions and race. It is one aspect of this country I am most proud of. I agree with Snoozin in that we overlook the immigrants. Highschool football is a bad example unaccepting defeat because if you've ever went to a European soccer(football)game, that sport over there is like a religion. Unreal how competetive they are. Here we tend to put sports in front of education. Americans are smart, but we do need improvement in our educational system for our children, in my opinion Europe has us beat there. I don't look at America for what it is and be content, I look for what it could be. That is coming from an american left wing yapper. Posts: 1063 | From: Oregon | Registered: Jun 2005
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What I find interesting is many 2nd generation immigrants in Europe still don't speak the native tongue of their new nation. Are they really that isolated? [/QB][/QUOTE]
That is not true! Second & third generations do speak the local language. The cause of the riots in France lies in the fact that the French government has done nothing over the past 30 years to create economic opportunity for these young people.
Posts: 316 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ann: That is not true! Second & third generations do speak the local language. The cause of the riots in France lies in the fact that the French government has done nothing over the past 30 years to create economic opportunity for these young people.
OK I believe you. Just going by what are media say. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Over the past year the arab problem in Europe has become apparent. First in the Netherlands, then the UK and now in France. prediction: within a year the rubber will meet the road and arab immigration to Europe and the United States will stop all together. Deportations will begin as people begin to see that these two cultures, as they exist today, are not compatible. This is the culmination of the insane left wing idea of 'diversity.' The whole concept of a 'society' demands at least some basic adherence to a common value system.
"Diversity" an insane leftist idea? I disagree. I think the problem is that so many millions of foreigners cannot be fully absorbed in the french society ,due to cultural reasons .This is not seen so often in USA,because USA's culture is a form of "lack of culture" in my opinion. Second,people have started to protest about the excessive freedom they have given to muslim immigrants ,for the reason that most of these immigrants do not want to adjust in the french culture-but they expect all the rest to adjust to theirs.This is what I find insane. And the situation continues to remain hectic..
Posts: 182 | From: greece | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by redmarrakesh: This is not seen so often in USA,because USA's culture is a form of "lack of culture" in my opinion.
Because most of America's whites are the poor and disfranchised from Europe, and many of our immigrants of color were either slaves or labor imports means we are below Europe and the rest of the world culturally?
Because we don't have a system defined by fuedal oppression and xenophobia we have no culture?
Wow, have you ever been to USA? And if you have relatives in the USA are they on welfare?
Because that is an attitude many Arab Americans have when they are immensely poor.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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[QUOTE]Originally posted by sonomod: Because we don't have a system defined by fuedal oppression and xenophobia we have no culture?
No don't take it like that:) What I meant is that America has only some centuries of history while others have millenia. The common thread of all the immigrants who built this nation and made it strong is that they were willing to work hard.
Americans are xenophobic in their own way.They do not tolerate a foreigner to question their values,and their democracy is much different from the democracy that other countries have.
Wow, have you ever been to USA? And if you have relatives in the USA are they on welfare?
I have been to my relatives in Tulsa,they have lived there for 30 years and they are doctors.Look I am not fond of this country although most of the people worship the american culture because its so easy to absorb.So I do not underestimate the majority's preference.Alot of people dream to be able to live in the USA ,and when I was little I also thought of it like a magical place I saw in the movies.I understand from your posts in general that you are very intelligent.I am sure you understand that when I say that America has no culture,I mean "no culture by european standards".It is a common expression used by some of its enemies too.The "McDonalds and t.v. culture".Of course America is a complex phenomenon that I cannot analyse since I am not a sociologist or historian (yet)!
Posts: 182 | From: greece | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by redmarrakesh: [QUOTE]Originally posted by sonomod: Because we don't have a system defined by fuedal oppression and xenophobia we have no culture?
No don't take it like that:) What I meant is that America has only some centuries of history while others have millenia. The common thread of all the immigrants who built this nation and made it strong is that they were willing to work hard.
Americans are xenophobic in their own way.They do not tolerate a foreigner to question their values,and their democracy is much different from the democracy that other countries have.
Wow, have you ever been to USA? And if you have relatives in the USA are they on welfare?
I have been to my relatives in Tulsa,they have lived there for 30 years and they are doctors.Look I am not fond of this country although most of the people worship the american culture because its so easy to absorb.So I do not underestimate the majority's preference.Alot of people dream to be able to live in the USA ,and when I was little I also thought of it like a magical place I saw in the movies.I understand from your posts in general that you are very intelligent.I am sure you understand that when I say that America has no culture,I mean "no culture by european standards".It is a common expression used by some of its enemies too.The "McDonalds and t.v. culture".Of course America is a complex phenomenon that I cannot analyse since I am not a sociologist or historian (yet)!
I don't consider America a McDonalds or TV culture.
And why the hell is Europe the benchmark for culture? Whats wrong with using the Indian, Chinese, Indigenious of Central or South America or even West and South Africa as a benchmark?
No you are from Greece, the Genesis of European civilization so therefore it serves you and your ego.
I love my country. I am proud of our "short heritage", you know since the Native Americans don't count as a culture next to Greece!Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by redmarrakesh: [QUOTE]Originally posted by sonomod: Because we don't have a system defined by fuedal oppression and xenophobia we have no culture?
No don't take it like that:) What I meant is that America has only some centuries of history while others have millenia. The common thread of all the immigrants who built this nation and made it strong is that they were willing to work hard.
Americans are xenophobic in their own way.They do not tolerate a foreigner to question their values,and their democracy is much different from the democracy that other countries have.
Wow, have you ever been to USA? And if you have relatives in the USA are they on welfare?
I have been to my relatives in Tulsa,they have lived there for 30 years and they are doctors.Look I am not fond of this country although most of the people worship the american culture because its so easy to absorb.So I do not underestimate the majority's preference.Alot of people dream to be able to live in the USA ,and when I was little I also thought of it like a magical place I saw in the movies.I understand from your posts in general that you are very intelligent.I am sure you understand that when I say that America has no culture,I mean "no culture by european standards".It is a common expression used by some of its enemies too.The "McDonalds and t.v. culture".Of course America is a complex phenomenon that I cannot analyse since I am not a sociologist or historian (yet)!
I'm disgusted by your term "no culture." What do you think makes up americans? Yes we're a mix of all Europeans etc. We're a mix of all different cultures and nationalities dating back centuries. This is america! We're getting more and more interacial couples along with beautiful mixed children which is something majority of countries stick up their nose about. We are evolving and I think it's in an excellent direction. You sound like you've never been here to make that remark. Out of all places to draw your opinion you use Tulsa Oklahoma as your example? A place with a population of maybe 400,000 people if that. It sounds like the people who make remarks like that are watching too much TV and not reading enough books. I am the first to point out americas flaws and where we need improvement, but I will come to the defense of america with an inaccurate statement like that.
Posts: 1063 | From: Oregon | Registered: Jun 2005
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quote:Originally posted by KeepinItReal: I'm disgusted by your term "no culture." What do you think makes up americans? Yes we're a mix of all Europeans etc. We're a mix of all different cultures and nationalities dating back centuries. This is america! We're getting more and more interacial couples along with beautiful mixed children which is something majority of countries stick up their nose about. We are evolving and I think it's in an excellent direction. You sound like you've never been here to make that remark. Out of all places to draw your opinion you use Tulsa Oklahoma as your example? A place with a population of maybe 400,000 people if that. It sounds like the people who make remarks like that are watching too much TV and not reading enough books. I am the first to point out americas flaws and where we need improvement, but I will come to the defense of america with an inaccurate statement like that.
I get that attitude a lot from my cousins from Scotland when they come over here, too. Personally, I think America is way too diverse to have one distinct culture in the first place. A rural state like OK is going to be loads different from Oregon, Minnesota, or DC, for example. The way of life in NYC is entirely different than it is in Phoenix.
One thing we *do* have in common is we work hard and are quite creative.
So when people in Europe (or elsewhere) are talking on their mobile phones, getting their polio vaccine, having sex using the Pill as their contraception of choice, listening to the radio, or typing on their computer that runs on Windows XP or some Apple operating system, I think they should remember they have Americans to thank for those inventions. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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and I always wondered why most of the worlds recognized STD were found in Europe first.
Wasn't a certain STD fought over between the French and Germans over which nation has inflicted the strain on the other?
And I remember the veterans saying "I learned to love in Europe, but found my soulmate in the USA". I always had this slutty impression of Europeans and that they can't fight their own wars they start.
That Europe's cast offs became their saviors.
They will always find us inferior, they will always need us. And then we have the NATO Treaty and the Marshal Plan.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: [QUOTE] I get that attitude a lot from my cousins from Scotland when they come over here, too. Personally, I think America is way too diverse to have one distinct culture in the first place. A rural state like OK is going to be loads different from Oregon, Minnesota, or DC, for example. The way of life in NYC is entirely different than it is in Phoenix.
One thing we *do* have in common is we work hard and are quite creative.
So when people in Europe (or elsewhere) are talking on their mobile phones, getting their polio vaccine, having sex using the Pill as their contraception of choice, listening to the radio, or typing on their computer that runs on Windows XP or some Apple operating system, I think they should remember they have Americans to thank for those inventions.
You raise a good point. Yet, every city in the world has small differences. No country is without regional differences, no matter how small or big. Part of our american culture is our ethnic heritage as well as american society and its cultural influences. Of course a person’s political view will also skew their perspective on culture. Can american culture be defined? Possibly not. America has varying degrees of the American culture, which is different from any other culture in the world. I wouldn't compare us to the other western countries in the world because I do believe america has its own unique flavor. And you are right in the great inventions this country has put forward. That is something to definetly be proud of. Posts: 1063 | From: Oregon | Registered: Jun 2005
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QUOTE]"Diversity" an insane leftist idea? I disagree. I think the problem is that so many millions of foreigners cannot be fully absorbed in the french society ,due to cultural reasons .
I disagree, the root of the problem isn't cultural; sociologists & other experts who know the reality on the ground have been saying for years that unless the government starts providing access to adequate housing & education as well as job creation, French society will be heading for social bankruptcy. And this is what is happening now, I fear that France has a civil war on its hand & the reaction of its government is weak to say the least. By the way, I don't think that you can use the term 'foreigners': second & third generations are born French citizens (i.e. they have the French nationality) & from a legal perspective they have the same rights & duties as any other French citizen.
Posts: 316 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2001
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quote:Originally posted by Ann: I disagree, the root of the problem isn't cultural; sociologists & other experts who know the reality on the ground have been saying for years that unless the government starts providing access to adequate housing & education as well as job creation, French society will be heading for social bankruptcy. And this is what is happening now, I fear that France has a civil war on its hand & the reaction of its government is weak to say the least. By the way, I don't think that you can use the term 'foreigners': second & third generations are born French citizens (i.e. they have the French nationality) & from a legal perspective they have the same rights & duties as any other French citizen.
Ann, do you happen to know the unemployment rate in France right now? Thanks!
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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The official national unemployment rate in France is 9.7%, the true figure is probably a lot higher. There are great regional differences, for examples in the suburbs of Paris which are in the news today the unemployment rate among young people is 40%.
Posts: 316 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2001
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Are we saying that it is the governments fault that people are deciding to break the law and riot? If I burn up someone else's car how is that the government's fault? These people need to do a better job of becoming Frenchmen. If they do not want to do that then leaving would be a good option. How about taking on French names (Many American immigrants changed their names to fit in better). If I wanted to immigrate to Japan would it not be a good thing to become as Japanese as possible?
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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I don't approve of violence, certainly not. However, in order to come up with solutions one needs to understand the cause of the social imbalance in France. Doesn't the French Republic stand for Liberty, Equality & Fraternity? Sure, every citizen has duties but what about the right to education, adequate housing & economic opportunity? Why are so many people left behind? I don't expect you to understand this: what I am saying doesn't fit in with your paradigm & you don't know a thing about the reality on the ground.
Posts: 316 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2001
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Again Ann, What does breaking the law by rioting have to do with getting an education?
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: So I can be a criminal because I am in despair?
I'm sure you understand the difference between an excuse and an explanation.
You should be happy, Hor -- the riots illustrate a possible failure of a socialist system. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Well Susan, socialism, as a product of the Industrial Revolution has been dying for several years, I'm not concerned about that. I am a little more concerned about this attitude that what happens in my life is the fault of someone else. The view that somehow the government is responsible to see that I am prosperous and happy and have what I want.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Well Susan, socialism, as a product of the Industrial Revolution has been dying for several years, I'm not concerned about that. I am a little more concerned about this attitude that what happens in my life is the fault of someone else. The view that somehow the government is responsible to see that I am prosperous and happy and have what I want.
What is government if it's not an entity that serves humans? We created it to help us, to serve us. Why else is it there? In the US, it provides services to those in need when the private market fails to do so. In a socialist country, it plays a much more significant role. Humans seem to have less power there over their self-determination than here in the US.
And if someone has been consistently left outside of the system, failed by the system, how are they supposed to successfully function *within* a system that continually rebuffs them? Hence, crime.
I found this quote interesting in Le Monde this morning, by Mitterand back in 1990:
"Que peut espérer un être jeune qui naît dans un quartier sans âme, qui vit dans un immeuble laid, entouré d'autres laideurs, de murs gris sur un paysage gris pour une vie grise, avec tout autour une société qui préfère détourner le regard et n'intervient que lorsqu'il faut se fâcher, interdire ?"
Which is basically saying, what hope does a young person have, who is born in a quarter without a heart? Who lives in an ugly building, surrounded by ugliness? Gray walls, gray landscape, gray life. With a society that prefers to look away from them, and intervene only when it is annoyed.
(Forgive my translation if it's a bit off).
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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jesus H Christ ! First of all Susan people have a right to be poor. Most poor people do not riot and whine that their problems are casued by the government. Perhaps they should get off their a$$e$ and do something about the situation. How about starting with...getting a job, now isn't that a radical idea? Further, if they can't make it in France then go somewhere else. The ONLY job government has is to set the rules that we all play by. The only people we have agreed to provide for are the VERY POOREST in our society. This whimpering that every poor person can be saved by the government is nonsense. We spend more and more on the poor (trillions on end since the 60's) and until they get off their duff and get an education and a skill someone has a use for nothing will change.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: jesus H Christ ! First of all Susan people have a right to be poor.
Do you really think most poor people *want* to be poor?
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Perhaps they should get off their a$$e$ and do something about the situation. How about starting with...getting a job, now isn't that a radical idea?
You don't get it. Anne said the unemployment rate was like 40% in some areas of Paris, and Le Monde said 50%. How exactly are you supposed to get a job when there are no jobs to be had?
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: The only people we have agreed to provide for are the VERY POOREST in our society.
You're talking about the US. This is happening in France. It's an entirely different beast.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: This whimpering that every poor person can be saved by the government is nonsense. We spend more and more on the poor (trillions on end since the 60's) and until they get off their duff and get an education and a skill someone has a use for nothing will change.
Do you know how difficult it is to change classes, even in the US? If you were born middle class, are you now upper class? If you are not, how difficult would it be for you to become a multi-millionaire? It's just as hard to get out of the lower class. If you didn't grow up that way, it's difficult to understand.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Though we live in the same USA, we obviously have different views (a wonderful thing, nonetheless).
Tolerance that come from power never lasts. It is consensous that allows tolerance to prosper according to my understanding. Destruction is distruction, yes-agreed but interestingly why not nuke Germany!! Instead Japan was the one to be nuked.. small point but a telling one?
The tolerance with belief is a recent phenomenon so we may not agree but I see your point.
hoda hafez semper fi
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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Susan, Yes I do think people choose to be poor. If that were not the case then why do we have the Condi Rice's of the world. Being poor is a way of life just like being rich is a way of life. Problem is that if you breed a 70 IQ mother with a 70 IQ father there is a damn good chance you will get a 70 IQ child.
First there may be more jobs in France if the government would scrap socialism and get the population off the tit. Even so, they can leave. Hell, somebody came to France or they would not be there in the first place. Are you saying they can't get together enough for a plane ticket someplace else? I would not stay there five minutes if I did not have a job and neither would you.
you guys talk about these people like they were helpless dogs.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Anyone who grew up taking piano lessons and ice skating lessons was NOT poor.
And people born with a 70 IQ do not choose to be poor. That is their fate unless someone helps them.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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You have obviously never taught in a public school Susan. You cannot save them, they can only save themselves.
First, the person born with a 70 IQ is not going to be a middle class person, I do not care what race they are. Secondly, you have outlined a problem with no solution. As a lefty you folks keep coming up with the same ideas that have failed in the past...over and over again. We have poured trillions and trillions into the poor in America and the problems continue. They continue because government can never solve the problem. The problem is embedded deeply in personal character.
I was watching the riots in Argentina the other day. Here we have a group of people that claim they are mad at president Bush so they burn their own towns down, hell, no wonder they are poor. How stupid is that? The bigger question is though. What the heck do they want us to do???? We don't have the money to give to 7 billion poor people in the world. We could not solve their problems even if we wanted to. The point is that only they can do that, same with poor here and in France.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: You have obviously never taught in a public school Susan. You cannot save them, they can only save themselves.
Nope, but I've tutored at-risk kids in low-income neighborhoods in Baltimore. I've helped bring several students grades up from Cs and Ds to As and Bs. They just needed a little extra attention.
And talking about public school, Baltimore schools suck. The kids don't have enough text books to assign one to each kid, so nobody can take books home to do homework. Don't you think we should at least equip them with the essentials? Of course not all kids will make it out, but shouldn't we be giving as many as possible a fighting chance?
I personally would rather sink money into the school system than into the prison system.
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: First, the person born with a 70 IQ is not going to be a middle class person, I do not care what race they are.
I never said anything about race. But I do think as a society we are responsible for taking care of disabled people -- providing them with safe, clean housing and meeting basic human needs. Is that asking too much?
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: The problem is embedded deeply in personal character.
To a certain degree, this is true, but the development of character in poor children is not their fault. They are guided by what is around them and have no chance to learn anything different unless we intervene. And it's to your benefit to teach lower-income children the value of honest work, and to provide them with the skills necessary to perform that honest work. And then keep the economy healthy enough to provide honest work to be done.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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I love the little poor childern as much as anyone. I would save them all if I could but it can't be done.
Susan, I grew up in Oklahoma, ever read about the dust bowl? There were never people in America poorer than we were back then. My grandfather had a '29 Ford in front of his house. The gas tank rusted out because he could not afford to buy gas for it. He used binding twine to lace up his shoes. People lived on sweet potatoes and even ate possums when they could catch them. The very worst neighborhood in Baltimore does not even approach the poverty we lived in in the 1930's. My grandmother had an apple crate for a dressing table.
I could go on and on. The point is that food stamps and welfare did not save us. Socialism did not save us, we saved ourselves. Liberals in America have made perpetual poor people out of 20% of the population. It is a disgusting display of unintended consequences.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: The very worst neighborhood in Baltimore does not even approach the poverty we lived in in the 1930's.
I always did say I pitied rural poor people more than urban poor people. At least in Baltimore there are neighbors to steal from!
quote:Originally posted by Horemheb:
I could go on and on. The point is that food stamps and welfare did not save us. Socialism did not save us, we saved ourselves.
Ya don't think that New Deal helped your family out any, huh?
I'm not taking away from the hard work your family put in. I'm not saying it's impossible to *make it,* just damned hard.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Well, in all fairness I do think FDR gave people hope. There are some cases where the new deal helped and I would have voted for FRD myself under the circumstances. Actually, WW II ended the depression once and for all.
There is a larger point though. The population of the world is out of control. We are nearing 7 billion people on a planet that really can only replenish itself with 3 billion people. We seem to be oblivious to this polulation time bomb. How can we possibly solve all of these social problems with the numbers of poor and destitute sky rocketing. The third world keeps looking to us but as rich as we are we do not have the money to help them.
If anything ever happens to the United states this is not a world any of us would want to live is.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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well, sadly not enough people have paid attention to him. I wish religion could do the job but I am affraid that your boyfriend may have some good points.
people talk about the beauty of nature. What it really is is everything killing and eating everything else. When you think about it nature is not very pretty at all. How different are we?
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Jesus was the first communist.
I don't think he was communist. The Pharasees were very dictorial in nature, and didn't bother to survey the masses before making a decsion and they weren't elected either, it was appointment from within.
So I consider, along with many other theologians, that Jesus was an anti-communist.
But Juses also didn't make remarks about Democracy being the "Holy" form of government, due to the fact that the Romans are supposed to be a Democratic Republic, but that wasn't helping the Jews any.
Posts: 5744 | From: Minneapolis, Mn USA | Registered: Mar 2004
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Jacques Chirac reacts ten days after the beginning of the crisis
THE WORLD | 07.11.05 | Updated • 16h28 07.11.05 | 16h28
L will have been necessary ten days and especially ten nights of riot in the suburbs so that Jacques Chirac decides to show himself in the court of the Elysium, Sunday November 6, towards 7 p.m. 45, at the end of a Security Council interior (CSI) bringing together seven ministers. And that it pronounces some words on the "pri absolute ority" which is " the re-establishment of safety and the law and order".
To the foot of the large interior staircase, the president threw a glance with his text, then slipped paper into his pocket. The ministers had eclipsed, Nicolas Sarkozy the first, low head and going along the walls. The Minister of Interior Department went on the ground, while, spokesman of the government, and Jean-Louis Borloo, Minister for employment, had been dispatched in the media.
Outside, beside Dominique de Villepin, stiff and dumb, the president ensured that decisions " likely to still reinforce the action of the police force and justice" had been taken " the last word must return to the law" , it stated. In the name of the Republic, he threatened of sanctions " those which want to sow violence or the fear". These, said the Head of the State, " will be apprehended, considered and punished". After this repressive shutter, it affirmed, like always, that the government was "given with (...) continuing the effort engaged" in the field of the justice and the equal opportunity in " the respect of each one".
Images and its out of box for 20 hours the television news, were intended to show that the president and the government worked the hand in the hand with the re-establishment of the order. A new night of violences started not only in the suburbs, but in many provincial towns.
Since the beginning of this crisis, the Elysium was clear-sighted only once... Sunday evening: just after the intervention of the president, his collaborators hardly had illusions over the night to come: "C ela cannot stop day at the following day." For the remainder, the entourage of the Head of the State denies against any obviousness that this one was too much long being shown and in intervening, in short that it did not evaluate the gravity of the crisis which went up.
Mr. Chirac initially waited five days before making a statement in the Council of Ministers, November 2, to ask that "L be spirits calms down NT" . The previous days, the Elysium was quasi empty because of the bridge of the 1er November. The secretary-general, Frederic Salat-Baroux, had left in weekend, just as the principal advisers for the press. The secretary-general associated Augustin de Romanet was to the absent subscriberes. As during the heat wave, the signals of alarm obviously did not function. Violences continued crescendo, in a true governmental cacophony initially, the political competitions coming to interfere in the management of the crisis of the suburbs.
The Head of the State especially sought to leave the longest possible its Prime Minister in first line, asking him to give up his voyage Canada, whereas Mr. Sarkozy had cancelled his displacement in Afghanistan. "It is normal to let act the government, it is the traditional design of the institutions of the O C République", justified an adviser of the palate then.
3 November, in a hurry of questions by the journalists, because the president celebrated, as if nothing were not, the 60E birthday of the release of the concentration camp of Struthof, in Alsace, the entourage of the president continued to stick to the declaration of the Council of Ministers of the day before, ensuring that it was " the natural place" so that the president expresses himself. As during the European countryside, Mr. Chirac did not seem to measure the difficulties.
An expert of the questions of safety had however warned the Elysium: " the crisis can stop because the Imam want to seem interlocutors impossible to circumvent, able to bring back calms it. And that the disorder does not like either the narcotrafiquants of the suburbs." But, it had added, if the spectacle of governmental divisions perdure, Si Nicolas Sarkozy appears to fail on her ground of predilection "vou S all will eat something hot".
It is done or almost. The close relations of Mr. Chirac do not have anything to answer on the higher bid of order of the national Face, if not that "to C what goes in the direction of the division of the French, of politicking recovery, is irresponsible". They did not notice anything of the movement which takes shape in the opinion, whereas citizens start to deal with themselves the protection of their public services. Blandine Kriegel, who chairs the High Council for integration (HCI) placed near the president, continuous to make him notes and works with her "Homologist of Matignon". These papers return very annotated, like front. Before the vascular accident gets along. Nothing changed all things considered, and it is the problem perhaps precisely there.
Creation. A decree of 15 May 2002, signed by Jacques Chirac after a presidential campaign centered on safety, creates the CSI.
Composition. Placed near the president, it joins together of right the Prime Minister, the budget, economy, defense, justice, Minister of Interior Department, overseas. Its secretary-general is Philippe Massoni.
Missions. He lays down the orientations and takes care of the coherence of the action as regards safety.
Use. The meetings take place in the Elysium, once per month, or in the event of crisis. They do not appear in any public diary and are not the subject of any report.
quote:Originally posted by sonomod: And why the hell is Europe the benchmark for culture? Whats wrong with using the Indian, Chinese, Indigenious of Central or South America or even West and South Africa as a benchmark?
No you are from Greece, the Genesis of European civilization so therefore it serves you and your ego.
I love my country. I am proud of our "short heritage", you know since the Native Americans don't count as a culture next to Greece!
What makes you think I consider the modern Greeks ,ancient Greeks !!
Talking about "civilisation",Americans are much more civilised in my opinion,because they are extremely polite,friendly,and self confident about their superiority in many things.I don't think all of them are arrogant or believe they are the centre of the universe..They just never felt threatened ,until 9-11,so they were ignorant of many things of the outside world(outside the USA I mean).
Anyway ,I would like to be in the States again ,simply to hear people say "please" "thank you" and "excuse me",because I have forgotten how these words sound in greek!!! Greeks are so rude..
Posts: 182 | From: greece | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Ann: QUOTE]"Diversity" an insane leftist idea? I disagree. I think the problem is that so many millions of foreigners cannot be fully absorbed in the french society ,due to cultural reasons .
I disagree, the root of the problem isn't cultural; sociologists & other experts who know the reality on the ground have been saying for years that unless the government starts providing access to adequate housing & education as well as job creation, French society will be heading for social bankruptcy. And this is what is happening now, I fear that France has a civil war on its hand & the reaction of its government is weak to say the least. By the way, I don't think that you can use the term 'foreigners': second & third generations are born French citizens (i.e. they have the French nationality) & from a legal perspective they have the same rights & duties as any other French citizen.
Has the french model failed then? Maybe french chauvinism is to blame then.I don't know.It's shocking what happens today.Everyone got reminded of the 60's riots.
Posts: 182 | From: greece | Registered: Jul 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: Jesus was the first communist.
I have heard this cliche again. And Marx wasn't a Marxist. I wonder if Lenin was a Leninist. Posts: 182 | From: greece | Registered: Jul 2005
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[/qb][/QUOTE]Has the french model failed then? Maybe french chauvinism is to blame then.I don't know.It's shocking what happens today.Everyone got reminded of the 60's riots. [/QB][/QUOTE]
In my view the government hasn't done enough to address the social imbalance, so yes I think the system has failed. I don't think chauvinism has anything to do with it.
Posts: 316 | From: Cairo, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2001
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The problem is the French are pu$$ie$. Here is how you solve the problem...you announce that starting at 7PM if you are caught buring anything or otherwise involved in a riot you will serve two years in prison with no possibility of early realease and you will stay in jail until your trial, whenever that is.
Bet that solves the problem.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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