posted
I went to sleep last night with the press reporting Fatah won....to wake up to the news that Hamas did.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Congradulations to HAMAS. They are the party chosen by the palestinians. True democracy has indeed prevailed in the middle-east. Thanks to Allah, the lord of mankind.
Posts: 18 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Is this the light at the end of a tunnel or a train? It will now be easier for outsiders? to destroy 'Palestine' since any violent act will now be seen as "state sponsored".
If it is true democracy to build a modern state, then it is good. If it is used to consolidate more bloodshed, then I am doubtful. Yes, the will of the people spoke.
Posts: 1290 | From: usa | Registered: May 2005
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you never know, Hamas could rise to the occasion and be excellent politicians...empowered by the political process they perhaps might reduce their use of violence?
Always the optimist...
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
Democracy is the government of the people, for the people, by the people. America, EU and Isreal must know respect the wishes of Palastinian people for elected Hamas to represent them.
Posts: 554 | From: Somaliland | Registered: Sep 2005
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Like Ireland's Sinn Fein and IRA parties...
quote:Originally posted by Snoozin: I'm taking a wait-and-see attitude...
you never know, Hamas could rise to the occasion and be excellent politicians...empowered by the political process they perhaps might reduce their use of violence?
quote:Originally posted by Ceelgabo_11: Democracy is the government of the people, for the people, by the people. America, EU and Isreal must know respect the wishes of Palastinian people for elected Hamas to represent them.
Well, I generally agree with you. I think Israel has already made a mistake by refusing to negotiate with a Hamas government. Give them a chance.
But while Hamas should be accorded basic respect for now being the ruling party, they cannot rest on that. Respect has to be earned, too.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Some of the early language coming out of Hamas is not productive, more of the same. The question is can you elect a group of one issue gangsters and hope to find a productive settlement. I have questioned the viability of a Palestinian state since they turned down the Clinton deal in '99. There seems to be an irrational mind set concerning Israel running through much of the Palestinian population. You hear it expressed a great deal on this board. That mindset wants to say that major concessions from Israel are still possible, that the struggle remains viable and the goals of a past era can still be attained. This is a cruel hoax and a dilution. All that can possibly be gained is the '99 deal, and no more. Both Israel and the United States have made that clear all along. Can a Leopard change its spots? The answer is no and I will be very suprised if Hamas can as well. Until arabs in the mideast wake up and smell the coffee in Palestine they will continue to suffer, continue to lose more and more land and move even further away from a Palestinian homeland free of Israel.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Hamas does do a lot of good things -- provides social services and those types of things -- which get buried under the fact they like blowing people up.
Trust me, they are *not* my favorite, but one of the things I've been concerned about is that every human likes his power, and Hamas members had power and status. Perhaps if they find legitimacy and power they humanly crave within a proper government, they might be willing to give up violence, at least to a certain degree.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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Yes, but are they going to be able to stand up and take a deal like the one Clinton offered in '99? That would be a major step for them. If they do not then construction on settlements in the west bank will continue and eventually the palestinians will be squeezed out. Time is running out and Israel is not required to live like this forever.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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I don't know the answers. I'm just hoping for the best.
We do have to respect the Palestians' vote -- they had a HUGE turnout, much larger than any American election -- whether we like the results or not.
I am concerned, and am wondering if you are as well, that Condoleeza Rice acts like this too her by surprise. Shouldn't she have a better idea of what a particular people want as Secretary of State??? My husband's been predicting this outcome forever...
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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i don't know if she was suprised or not. History is replete with miscalculations in foreign policy. July of 1914 and January of 1861 come to mind as extreme examples. I do agree with you that the arab street is much more radical than many would like to admit. My biggest fear is that these extreme views will lead to the deaths of millions of people in the future. The world order is not going to allow Islamic states to run the middle east. Condi Rice has her hands full, thats for sure.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Most of the money coming into Palestine is in the form of international hand-outs. If Hamas do not play the game, then this money will undoubtedly stop. There is no country that is going to provide cash to a regime that is simply going to use it for warfare. The money given is to enable the Palestinians to build a better future for themselves, Hamas could destroy that if they do not renounce violence and co-operate with the donors wishes.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: so much for any realistic peace deal.
you scream about democracy and now you have it
but about the Palestinian elections, one fact remains relatively forgotten: Israel did much to launch Hamas as an effective force in the occupied territories. If ever there was a clear case of "blowback," then this is it.
Posts: 1074 | From: Menufia, Egypt | Registered: Oct 2005
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Wouldn't that be a little like Republicans and Democrats shooting at one another in the street?
I suppose the Republicans would win cuz the Dems don't have any guns! Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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The victory of Hamas, a terrorist organization responsible for suicide bombings in Israel was not a fluke. 77% of the population voted enthusiastically in a very clean and fair election. Hamas won 76 seats compared to Fatah’s 43. Palestinians overwhelmingly chose the members of this terrorist organization as their leaders.
Democracy however is a double edge sword. Democracy without responsibility can lead to tyranny. There is nothing more dangerous than putting the power in the hands of a people who are not responsible. Are other Islamic countries ready for democracy? If complete free elections are held today, and people are allowed to choose their own candidates, Osama Bin Laden would probably be elected as the president in several Islamic countries. As for Iraq , although the removal of Saddam was a gain for the world, the future of the Iraqis is less certain.
Not all people know what is good for them. Before empowering them, they must be educated. Rights come with responsibility. Those who are not responsible can't handle their rights and should not have them. This would be like putting a weapon in the hands of a child. He can hurt others and himself too. It is irresponsible to give rights to those who are not responsible.
Among all the Islamic countries, perhaps Iran is the only one that is ready for democracy. And that is because the Iranians have learned their lesson the hard way. Even there, it won’t be easy, as they hardly know what democracy means. Twenty seven years ago, the Iranians seized the power with great jubilee and handed it to the Islamists. Soon their jubilee turned into grief and they have shed a thousand tears of regret, ever since. They have not stopped cursing themselves for acting irresponsibly. Today, given the chance, they may act differently. But alas they do not have that luxury anymore.
The solution to the problems in Islamic counties is democracy. But before you hand people that awesome power, you must prepare them for it.
Aristotle understood the danger of democracy when people are not yet ready for self rule. The peripatetic philosopher was not against democracy. He suggested a sound balance between two extremes one that romanticizes the rule of people and the other that advocates the governance of the elite that underrate them.
The masses are not always right. It is cruel to let people self –rule when they are not ready for it and have no understanding of democracy. They can end up hurting themselves and others. The tyrannical regimes of the Nazis, the Bolsheviks and the Iranian Islamists were all born out of popular votes. Yet no one would call them democratic.
Self-rule under law is better than all compelling forms of governments. However, democracy cannot be imposed universally. It must arise out of cultural and historical traditions of the people or it will fall into tyranny.
Islamic ethos is theocratic. A theocratic democracy makes as much sense as a round square. To have true democracy in Islamic countries, candidates and parties running with religious platforms must be disqualified. But if you limit the people’s choices to vote for their own candidates it won’t be democracy anymore.
In countries where people are Islamists, democracy cannot take root. Before we can promote democracy, the Islamic ethos must be replaced with the rule of law, respect for the rights of the minorities and the separation of religion from government. In other worlds these countries must be deislamized.
This is much easier said than done. Islam is political by its very nature. You can’t have it in any other way. The whole raison d'ętre of Islam is to take over the world, establish the Khilaft and rule it on behalf of Allah. Islam is not just a religion, but it is believed by Muslims to be the perfect way of life and governance. How can they keep their faith and distance themselves from it and its goal in their political life? This would be the cause of cognitive dissonance – the discomfort felt when facing a discrepancy between what one believes to be true and something that defies that belief. It is natural that one would want to reject any new idea to keep one’s faith.
What kind of commitment to democracy and democratic values can we expect from Muslims when they get their values from Islam which is anti democratic par excellence? Will someone like Omaya Joha, the famous Islamist cartoonist of Palestinian press and one of the winners of the election who proclaims, "If polygamy is good for Islam, it is good for me," , If her religious zealotry makes her disregard her own equal rights, will she be able to respect the equal rights of the minorities and disregard her religion?
Imposing democracy in Islamic countries is therefore not an easy task. It's like trying to swim against the current. It’s only a matter of time that people fall back to despotism and tyranny again.
Bush may have all the good intentions in the world but he does not understand the idiosyncrasy of Muslims. His efforts of trying to impose democracy in Islamic countries are not going to work and in fact they will backfire causing more damage than good. You can’t build too high without a foundation. The foundation for democracy in Islamic countries simply does not exist. The America 's fiasco in Somali should have been enough to make them see that democracy can't be imposed on people who do not want it. The democracies in Afghanistan and in Iraq will fall, as soon as America pulls its troops out of these countries.
Yes, democracy is what the Islamic countries need most. But before democracy can take root, Islam must be weeded out.
Posts: 149 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Sharia: it's the will of the people. Ain't democracy grand?
The incoming Hamas government will move quickly to make Islamic sharia “a source” of law in the West Bank and Gaza Strip and will overhaul the Palestinian education system to separate boys and girls and introduce a more Islamic curriculum, a senior official in the movement said yesterday.
Spelling out the domestic agenda of Hamas for the first time since the group's stunning victory in a legislative election this week, Sheik Mohammed Abu Teir also said Hamas would not go to foreign donors on bended knee if they withdrew aid to the Palestinian Authority.
The armed struggle against Israel will continue as long as Israel continues its occupation of Palestinian lands, he added. Posts: 149 | Registered: Jan 2006
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posted
I like this part: “Our people would rather live in poverty than live in humiliation with Israeli and Western aid.”
“When Hamas starts doing these things, they will get into all kinds of trouble. Politically, socially, economically, they will not be able to do the kinds of things they are talking about,” said Basem Ezbidi, a political scientist at Birzeit University in Ramallah. “Many people are truly worried right now.”
He said it is “insanity” for Hamas to say that it would not talk to Israel or that it does not need foreign aid.
Palestinians regularly use Israeli hospitals, roads and the Israeli electricity grid, and the Palestinian Authority relies on Israel to collect sales taxes on its behalf.
You know, it reminds me of bin Laden insisting his moslem "brothers" would rather die under the sword....whilst living in cowardly hiding, unable to show his face.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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well you weren't asking that question before, especially when you have an actual country (Israel)with a formalized military attacking people who are not a country with no military, and yet it seems sane. at what point do we all become numb? You have some individuals (palestinians) commiting terrorist acts and they are terrorists, you have an ACTUAL country using its military to commit terrorist acts (israel) and it is called defense? Now you recognize it is a new government with no money? Hmmmmm.....
Posts: 1074 | From: Menufia, Egypt | Registered: Oct 2005
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I think Israel has already made a mistake by refusing to negotiate with a Hamas government. Give them a chance.
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