posted
Don't be fooled, this isn't an issue of Islam versus secularism
'The Koran does not forbid images of the Prophet but millions of Muslims do'
By Robert Fisk
02/04/06 "The Independent" -- -- So now it's cartoons of the Prophet Mohamed with a bomb-shaped turban. Ambassadors are withdrawn from Denmark, Gulf nations clear their shelves of Danish produce, Gaza gunmen threaten the European Union. In Denmark, Fleming Rose, the "culture" editor of the pip-squeak newspaper which published these silly cartoons - last September, for heaven's sake - announces that we are witnessing a "clash of civilizations" between secular Western democracies and Islamic societies. This does prove, I suppose, that Danish journalists follow in the tradition of Hans Christian Anderson. Oh lordy, lordy. What we're witnessing is the childishness of civilizations.
So let's start off with the Department of Home Truths. This is not an issue of secularism versus Islam. For Muslims, the Prophet is the man who received divine words directly from God. We see our prophets as faintly historical figures, at odds with our high-tech human rights, almost caricatures of themselves. The fact is that Muslims live their religion. We do not. They have kept their faith through innumerable historical vicissitudes. We have lost our faith ever since Matthew Arnold wrote about the sea's "long, withdrawing roar". That's why we talk about "the West versus Islam" rather than "Christians versus Islam" - because there aren't an awful lot of Christians left in Europe. There is no way we can get round this by setting up all the other world religions and asking why we are not allowed to make fun of Mohamed.
Besides, we can exercise our own hypocrisy over religious feelings. I happen to remember how, more than a decade ago, a film called The Last Temptation of Christ showed Jesus making love to a woman. In Paris, someone set fire to the cinema showing the movie, killing a young man. I also happen to remember a US university which invited me to give a lecture three years ago. I did. It was entitled "September 11, 2001: ask who did it but, for God's sake, don't ask why". When I arrived, I found that the university had deleted the phrase "for God's sake" because "we didn't want to offend certain sensibilities". Ah-ha, so we have "sensibilities" too.
In other words, while we claim that Muslims must be good secularists when it comes to free speech - or cheap cartoons - we can worry about adherents to our own precious religion just as much. I also enjoyed the pompous claims of European statesmen that they cannot control free speech or newspapers. This is also nonsense. Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had "anti-Semitism" screamed into our ears - and rightly so - just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.
Furthermore, in some European nations - France is one, Germany and Austria are among the others - it is forbidden by law to deny acts of genocide. In France, for example, it is illegal to say that the Jewish Holocaust or the Armenian Holocaust did not happen. So it is, in fact, impermissable to make certain statements in European nations. I'm still uncertain whether these laws attain their objectives; however much you may prescribe Holocaust denial, anti-Semites will always try to find a way round. We can hardly exercise our political restraints to prevent Holocaust deniers and then start screaming about secularism when we find that Muslims object to our provocative and insulting image of the Prophet.
For many Muslims, the "Islamic" reaction to this affair is an embarrassment. There is good reason to believe that Muslims would like to see some element of reform introduced to their religion. If this cartoon had advanced the cause of those who want to debate this issue, no-one would have minded. But it was clearly intended to be provocative. It was so outrageous that it only caused reaction.
And this is not a great time to heat up the old Samuel Huntingdon garbage about a "clash of civilizations". Iran now has a clerical government again. So, to all intents and purposes, does Iraq (which was not supposed to end up with a democratically elected clerical administration, but that's what happens when you topple dictators). In Egypt, the Muslim Brotherhood won 20 per cent of the seats in the recent parliamentary elections. Now we have Hamas in charge of "Palestine". There's a message here, isn't there? That America's policies - "regime change" in the Middle East - are not achieving their ends. These millions of voters were preferring Islam to the corrupt regimes which we imposed on them.
For the Danish cartoon to be dumped on top of this fire is dangerous indeed.
In any event, it's not about whether the Prophet should be pictured. The Koran does not forbid images of the Prophet even though millions of Muslims do. The problem is that these cartoons portrayed Mohamed as a bin Laden-type image of violence. They portrayed Islam as a violent religion. It is not. Or do we want to make it so?
posted
Religion for Europeans is not a spritual vessel but actually more of a political tool they have used throughout the centuries. Europeans have a special affinity for it since it was the same tool that brought them out of barbarism[notice I am speaking of Northern/Western Europeans] Europeans have a notion that Christianity represents ''Western culture'' since they have modified if for their own European ways.
Of course, Islam has its fair share of people that manipulate and try to force Arabization upon people with al-Islam despite the phophet's own words that Islam was not only for the Arabs but for all people.
Posts: 8675 | From: Tukuler al~Takruri as Ardo since OCT2014 | Registered: Feb 2003
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posted
I utterly disagree. For most people who truly embrace their religion, it is an undeniably essential and deeply felt spiritual experience. The politics of the people's religion is most keenly felt by outsiders who are making assumptions about the faithful.
Posts: 1161 | From: wo xiang xiao bian ji si le | Registered: Oct 2005
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Your Taboo, Not Mine The furor over cartoons of Muhammad reveals the zealot's double standard By ANDREW SULLIVAN SUBSCRIBE TO TIMEPRINTE-MAILMORE BY AUTHOR Posted Sunday, Feb. 05, 2006 The iconic image of last week was in the Gaza Strip. It was of a Palestinian gunman astride the local office of the European Union. All the diplomatic staff had fled, tipped off ahead of time. The source of the militant's ire? A series of satirical cartoons originally published in Denmark. Yes, cartoons.
A Danish paper, a while back, had commissioned a set of cartoons depicting the fear that many writers and artists in Europe feel when dealing with the subject of Islam. To Western eyes, the cartoons were not in any way remarkable. In fact, they were rather tame. One showed Muhammad with his turban depicted as a bomb--not exactly a fresh image to describe Islamic terrorism. Another used a simple graphic device: it showed Muhammad surrounded by two women in full Muslim garb, their eyes peering out from an oblong space in their black chadors. And on Muhammad's face there was an oblong too, blacking out his eyes. The point was that Islam has a blind spot when it comes to women's freedom. Crude but powerful: exactly what a political cartoon is supposed to be.
The result was an astonishing uproar in the Muslim world, one of those revealing moments when the gulf between our world and theirs seems unbridgeable. Boycotts of European goods are in force; demonstrators in London held up signs proclaiming EXTERMINATE THOSE WHO MOCK ISLAM and BE PREPARED FOR THE REAL HOLOCAUST; the editor of the French newspaper France-Soir was fired for reprinting the drawings; Afghan President Hamid Karzai condemned the publication; and protesters set fire to the Danish and Norwegian embassies in Damascus. The Egyptian ambassador to Denmark expressed disbelief that the government would not prevent further reprinting. Freedom of the press, the Egyptian explained, "means the whole story will continue and that we are back to square one again. The government of Denmark has to do something to appease the Muslim world."
Excuse me? In fact, the opposite is the case. The Muslim world needs to do something to appease the West. Since Ayatullah Khomeini declared a death sentence against Salman Rushdie for how he depicted Muhammad in his book The Satanic Verses, Islamic radicals have been essentially threatening the free discussion of their religion and politics in the West. Rushdie escaped with his life. But Pim Fortuyn, a Dutch politician who stood up against Muslim immigrant hostility to equality for women and gays, was murdered on the street. Theo van Gogh, a Dutch filmmaker who offended strict Muslims, was killed thereafter. Several other Dutch politicians who have dared to criticize the intolerance of many Muslims live with police protection.
Muslim leaders say the cartoons are not just offensive. They're blasphemy--the mother of all offenses. That's because Islam forbids any visual depiction of the Prophet, even benign ones. Should non-Muslims respect this taboo? I see no reason why. You can respect a religion without honoring its taboos. I eat pork, and I'm not an anti-Semite. As a Catholic, I don't expect atheists to genuflect before an altar. If violating a taboo is necessary to illustrate a political point, then the call is an easy one. Freedom means learning to deal with being offended.
Blasphemy, after all, is commonplace in the West. In America, Christians have become accustomed to artists' offending their religious symbols. They can protest, and cut off public funding--but the right of the individual to say or depict offensive messages or symbols is not really in dispute. Blasphemy, moreover, is common in the Muslim world, and sanctioned by Arab governments. The Arab media run cartoons depicting Jews and the symbols of the Jewish faith with imagery indistinguishable from that used in the Third Reich. But I have yet to see Jews or Israelis threaten the lives of Muslims because of it.
And there is, of course, the other blasphemy. It occurred on Sept. 11, 2001, when fanatics murdered thousands of innocents in the name of Islam. Surely, nothing could be more blasphemous. So where were the Muslim boycotts of Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan after that horrifying event? Since 9/11 mosques have been bombed in Iraq by Islamic terrorists. Where was the rioting condemning attacks on the holiest of shrines? These double standards reveal something quite clear: this call for "sensitivity" is primarily a cover for intolerance of others and intimidation of free people.
Yes, there's no reason to offend people of any faith arbitrarily. We owe all faiths respect. But the Danish cartoons were not arbitrarily offensive. They were designed to reveal Islamic intolerance--and they have now done so, in abundance. The West's principles are clear enough. Tolerance? Yes. Faith? Absolutely. Freedom of speech? Nonnegotiable.
> Visit Andrew Sullivan's blog, the Daily Dish, at time.com
Posts: 1223 | From: Home | Registered: Feb 2005
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quote:Originally posted by QueenBee: I utterly disagree. For most people who truly embrace their religion, it is an undeniably essential and deeply felt spiritual experience. The politics of the people's religion is most keenly felt by outsiders who are making assumptions about the faithful.
I never understand what you're saying and I like it that way Posts: 637 | Registered: Apr 2005
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posted
Christian ethics and Greek thought are the two pillars of western civilization. Both were developed in the south and spread throughout Europe, to the Americas and beyond.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Automatic For The People: I never understand what you're saying and I like it that way
Maybe you should take a reading comprehension course. Her post made perfect sense. Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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posted
''In other words, while we claim that Muslims must be good secularists when it comes to free speech - or cheap cartoons - we can worry about adherents to our own precious religion just as much. I also enjoyed the pompous claims of European statesmen that they cannot control free speech or newspapers. This is also nonsense. Had that cartoon of the Prophet shown instead a chief rabbi with a bomb-shaped hat, we would have had "anti-Semitism" screamed into our ears - and rightly so - just as we often hear the Israelis complain about anti-Semitic cartoons in Egyptian newspapers.''
TEHRAN, Iran - A prominent Iranian newspaper said Tuesday it would hold a competition for cartoons on the Holocaust to test whether the West extends the principle of freedom of expression to the Nazi genocide as it did to the caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad.
Hamshahri, one of Iran's largest papers, made clear the contest is a reaction to European newspapers' publication of Danish cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad, which have led to demonstrations, boycotts and attacks on European embassies across the Islamic world. Several people have been killed.
Hundreds of Iranians hurled stones, and sometimes gasoline bombs, at the Danish and Austrian embassies in Tehran in protest against the cartoons Monday. Austria currently holds the European Union presidency. http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/iran_cartoons
I can guarantee you right now: no Westerners will be hurling stones or gasoline bombs because of any cartoons Hamshahri will publish.
Dutch Islamists post cartoons depicting Anne Frank, Hitler in bed By News Agencies
A Belgian-Dutch Islamic political organization posted anti-Jewish cartoons on its Web site in response to the cartoons of the prophet Mohammed that appeared in Danish papers last year and offended many Muslims.
The cartoons were posted on the Arab European League's site on Saturday. It was not working Sunday morning because of exceeded bandwidth.
I'm not in favor of laws against Holocaust Denial, and I agree that many European nations would be able to make a better case on the free-speech issue if they practiced it a bit better, but I also acknowledge that with regard to laws in Europe against it (note: NOT discussing the Holocaust, but denying it happened) Europe has a particular and recent history in that regard that may make such rules wise though not perfect from a libertarian perspective. The fact remains that cartoons of "the prophet" are not equivalent to Holocaust denial, have zero chance of leading to genocide -particularly of a group of over a billion people, and surely there must be a better comparison available that doesn't so confirm the ugly stereotype of Jew obssession from even regular seeming Muslims. Besides, Holocaust denial isn't illegal in some parts of Europe because it's offensive to Jews, it's illegal because it's offensive to Europeans. The victims of the Holocaust were simply victims, people who simply went about their lives. I think if cartoons were made of the 9/11 victims or the Kurds who were gassed, or whatever, the reaction would be the same as Holocausts cartoons...it's not the same as poking fun at the great philosophers of our history Jesus, Muhammad or Budhha.
Posts: 149 | Registered: Jan 2006
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The cartoon above, from Arab News, depicts rats wearing Stars of David and skullcaps. They scurry backwards and forwards through holes in the wall of a building called “Palestine House.” Arab News, an English-language daily widely read by expats in Saudi Arabia, is widely-regarded as a moderate publication. It is published by a state-owned Saudi corporation. The imagery in the cartoon may well be inspired by a well-known scene from the Nazi film “Jew Suess,” to which it bears a close resemblance – a scene in which Jews are depicted as vermin to be eradicated by mass extermination.
Posts: 149 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Above, another cartoon from the Internet site of official Palestinian Authority cartoonist Omayya Joha, showing alleged Jewish control (in the form of snakes) of the United States. The snake was often used to portray Jews in historic European anti-Semitic images.
Posts: 149 | Registered: Jan 2006
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In the above cartoon, from Akhbar Al-Khalij (Bahrain) (June 10, 2002), the anti-Semitic caricature of a Jew on the right says: “Say: ‘I hate the Arabs!’” and American president George W. Bush, made to resemble a parrot, repeats: “I hate the Arabs, I hate the Arabs.”
Posts: 149 | Registered: Jan 2006
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Thats a great point XX, we have a much greater problem on our hands than many westerners want to deal with. here is the problem and it shown clearly with left wing western reaction to the war in Iraq. The left in the west wants to use Vietnam as the model when considering the war in Iraq when , in fact, the model is World War II. Lets look at a worst case senario in terms of dealing with Islamo-Facism. Lets say that through left wing political pressure the US/UK were forced to withdraw from Iraq and even Afghanistan. The result would be the complete radicalization of the middle east and control by anti western radicals of 50% of the worlds oil supply. This would put them in a position to bring the global economy to its knees. They would then have atomic weapons and we would be confronted with , literally, World War III.
This "I'm going to bury my head in the sand liberalism" that we have so much of in the west is probably going to cause the deaths of 50 million people before it is over. Its a serious miscalculation.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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Any satyrical cartoons are offensive to some one, some where. In these days of relgious and political turmoil and intolerance, in my view I think they should amount to libel. People who issue and publish such material ought to be punished for inciding racial and religious hatred on whichever side of the fence it occurs.
Posts: 304 | From: egypt | Registered: Dec 2005
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It looks to me like fanatical Muslims want to impose their Islamo-Fascist standards on the Danes and restrict free speech. There is nothing more to it than that.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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