posted
MB are fighting to rule egypt but now after they won 88 votes in the parliment they feel satisfied.
Still Christian-Copts asking for more Freedom. Copts demands
COPTS DEMAND EQUALITY...
Copts (Christians of Egypt) are not asking for special treatment to compensate for centuries of discrimination and persecution. They are only asking for equality. They don't want anything more, and they will not settle for anything less. It is hard to believe that , at the turn of the 21st century,equality to Copts remains a luxury they still dream of. This at a time when the rest of the civilized world considers equality a birth right to be taken for granted.
1. Copts want the antiquated 19th Century Hamayouni decree be abolished. It is inconceivable to require that the president of Egypt must approve permits to build a church or even to repair a toilet in a church. Mosques in Egypt are being built with no restrictions.
2. Copts want equal air time on the government controlled TV and Radio stations to broadcast there belief to their people. The 15 million Copts living in Egypt pay for the TV and Radio from their tax money and they should have time allocated for broadcasting.
3. Copts want to have the church's trust lands returned. The income generated by these lands was used to provide for needy Copts. The lands were seized by the Ministry of Islamic affairs, even though the courts had ordered that the lands must be returned to their legitimate owners; the Copts.
4. Copts want an end to forced conversion of Christian girls, who are kidnapped and raped by Muslim extremists. There are reports of policeprotection given to the abductors.
5. Copts want all Egyptian citizens to have the freedom of belief, including the freedom to change one's religion. Christians are welcomed to convert to Islam, so Muslims should be free to convert to Christianity, if they so chose. Those converts are usually subjected to imprisonment and torture.
6. Copts want religious affiliation be removed from national ID cards, job applications,.etc...so Christians could not be identified and discriminated against.
7. Copts want educational curriculums to be revised to guarantee that they do not contain any denigrating references to Christians and Christianity, but to encourage students to accept and respect each other. Mandatory courses in human rights in all public schools is strongly recommended.
8. Copts want the Government controlled media to refrain from conducting a campaign of hate against Christians, labeling them as infidels, thus creating a climate of intolerance, in which attacks against the Copts can be easily propagated. The media should also allow Coptic programs to be aired.
9. Copts want an end to discrimination in job appointments and promotions. Very few Christians are appointed to key jobs such as ministers, or other government officials. At the present time there are no Christian governors, mayors, chief of police, president of City council or college deans in Egypt
10. Copts want an end to discrimination in government controlled school admission against Christian students. Very few Christians are admitted to the police academy, military schools. Very few Christians are appointed to teaching assistance positions in all medical collages, pharmaceutical collages, engineering collages and all top education collages.
11. Copts want the Egyptian government to be serious about apprehending those who murder Copts, and to punish them to the fullest extent of the law, and to adequately compensate the victims of these crimes. No killers of Copts have been sentenced to the same punishment as that of a killer of Muslims. Even the terrorist Haridi, who murdered thirteen Christians including small children, in Sanabu in 1992, did not get the usual punishment for murder for his horrifying crimes.
12. Copts want immediate orders be issued to rebuild Kafr Demian village, which was burned down by Muslim extremists in 1996, this must be done at the expense of the State.
13. Copts want certain mechanism to be established to create an adequate representation for them in the Egyptian parliament. One suggestion is to have certain areas be closed to Coptic candidates only. Political exclusion of Copts must stop. The governing national party failed to include any Copts in their list of candidates to the parliament.
14. Copts want the center for handicapped children, which was destroyed by the army in December 1996, be rebuilt at the expense of the government, and as soon as possible.
15. Copts want to be treated with honor and dignity inside Police Departments and in the Sermons of Muslim Sheiks in Mosques...etc. There is no justification for humiliating somebody just because he is different in religion.
16. Copts want to see an end to the religious discrimination that prevails at all levels of the Egyptian educational system, especially in hiring of teachers and professors, and unfair grading practices aimed at Christian students.
17. Copts want their history, language, and culture be taught in schools and colleges in Egypt where their sons and daughters attend.
18. Copts want to feel that Mr. Mubarak is a president for both Muslims and Copts. They want him to care for them and address their concerns. They want him to meet with their religious leadership, and perhaps pay visits to their churches, something other presidents used to do, but he has never done. This , no doubt, will break down walls of mistrust, and build bridges of tolerance and harmony between Muslims and Christians.
19. Copts want to be allowed to enroll in all schools, which are publicly funded, such as Al-Azhar University, police and military academies, without any restrictions. At present time there is a 5% maximum place on Coptic enrollment to police and military academies, and this percentage is not even met by actual enrollment.
These are just a few examples of the discriminatory practices imposed on Copts. They represent a starting point, and taking care of them will show good faith. The most important thing is that there must be a will to correct the wrongs being done to the Copts. When the will is there, everything else will fall in place. Then, Muslims and Christians will live together, in harmony, as brothers and sisters on the land of our beloved Egypt.
What do you think? shouldn't Egypt government give more freedom to christian-copts and save the country from division?
Posts: 184 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
Of course Egypt SHOULD do it. But that stupid Mubarak and gang is useless.
What we need is more outside pressure to enforce human rights in Egypt - not only for Copts but for ALL religious minorities there!
Posts: 2184 | Registered: Oct 2005
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posted
Egypt does not have an Islamic government. Yet. For 25 years, it has been ruled by a secular despot propped up by the most powerful nation on earth. In time, he will either be deposed or will die of natural (or man-made) causes.
It's unconscionable what occured in that resort even if the target were foreigners. Tourists and those working in the resorts are not the enemy but Mubabrak and his puppet government are. They should blow those bastards up.
May the innocent who lost their lives rest in peace.
Posts: 216 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
It's a matter of justice in general in egypt, all egyptians are living imprisoned in their country(a military exemted 24 yrs old still needs to get a travelling permit from the gov)
I agree with the post Ichigo, but not only Copts are being misstreated it's all egyptians, they just dont realise it coz they've been living under that system for too long they got used to it......
I completely agree with the human rights thingy cos egyptians don't know any of it, and as humans they should know their rights.......
Posts: 517 | From: snake city | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Egypt will not go anywhere unless the gov gives more freedom to it's ppl (Muslims & Copts)
Our government only pretends that there's no discrimination, but I believe there is.
Posts: 517 | From: snake city | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Yes, but why couldn't religious parties be a part of it. If religious parties (who represent the religions of the people) abide by the constitution, there is no reason why they should be barred from participating. Now, the real question is can Egypt be accepted in the world community if it had an Islamic (Sharia based) government?
Democracy is not a one-size-fits-all mold. It can be shaped and morphed to fit the cultural and religious make up of the society that purports to have it. And in every case, imposed democracy is no democracy at all.
Posts: 216 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
Religion and Democratic government are not compatable in most cases. European historians give credit to the protestant Reformation for laying the groundwork for the spread of capitalism after 1500. It is hard to imagine the growth of the modern world in 'the old europe' dominated by the Catholic church. The problem is that religions normally have a power agenda that opposes that kinds of freedom and diversity needed to build a vibrant capitalistic economic system. A Sharia based goverment will continue to deliver poverty and stagnant economic growth. One of the unique features of American prosperity is the exclusion of religion from government and economic development.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Religion and Democratic government are not compatable in most cases.
In which cases are they compatible then?
I have no strong feelings or views one way or the other. Democracy is not the holy grail to prosperity and neither is religious governing a recipe for destitution. The truth lies somewhere in between and it would be interesting to see any studies done on this.
Posts: 216 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
religions can't be part of a political or economical system, the proof is every country that had a religious gov had failed miserably.
thus some laws can be taken from religions, if the majority wants that.
and religion is something personal which can't be generalised, for example u can't implement shariaa in a country that has christians in it, they will never accept it thus creating instability.
and if you speperate the system into shariaa and law for for christans, you are creating discrimination against both sides.
so religion has no place in economics, politics and law.
Posts: 517 | From: snake city | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
very good point binhaden, "The truth lies somewhere in between and it would be interesting to see any studies done on this."
would you agree that wats better for the society is the right thing to do?
if so then wats right is virtue, and virtue is the aim of religions.
thus doing every thing at hand to eliminate discrimination, increase freedom, achieve justice and so on is virtue, thus fulfiling the religious part.
Posts: 517 | From: snake city | Registered: Apr 2006
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posted
Just of a philiosphical note why does religion need to be involved in government? religion is a very personal thing. I was visiting with a woman from the Balkans last year and she was telling me of the adjustments she made when she came to the United States. She said, "nobody here cares about what religion you are and they don't want to know." When we leave our homes to go to church or the Mosque or wherever our neighbors do not even know where we are going, and don't care. Islam should be kept in the Mosque and out of politics, it would do much better. In the west islam has to stay in the Mosque because it is excluded from government and it seems to be doing fine.
Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Horemheb: Just of a philiosphical note why does religion need to be involved in government?
Religions are an excellent starting point for laws and codes of ethics. Some religions (e.g. Islam) cover every aspect of the followers' lives. From hygiene, to marriage, to child rearing, to business transactions, to inter-personal relationships to governance and even inter-government relationships. In other words, it provides a comprehensive, even complete, framework for the life of the individual and the group. It is no surprise then that strict adherents of Islam would want to have an Islamic state modelled after that which the messenger had created.
That latter day Islamic states, however, have proven to be failures of the imagination and grave distortions of the original wisdom of the state-mosque relationship is neither a secret nor something Muslims could be proud of. It may well be that an Islamic state true to the fundamentals of the religion is difficult (but not impossible) to implement given the current state of world affairs. That, however, provides no validity to those who continually scream seperate the church from the state.
To be sure, if a certain nation wishes (with a majority vote) to be governed by an Islamic state (with all the rights it provides minorities) then the rest of the world must respect their wishes. Of course, we're all talking hypothetical situations here for there's neither an Islamic state out there nor is the world ready, willing or able to deal with it.
Posts: 216 | Registered: Dec 2005
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posted
An islamic state woul be fine if everyone was Islamic, or even the same kind of Muslim. As in Iraq religon is a problem, not a solution....even the Muslims do not agree with each other. Muslims also have to deal with the issue of their women in the modern world. All that said, I see your points.
-------------------- God Bless President Bush Posts: 5822 | From: USA | Registered: Jan 2004
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posted
An Islamic state will not respect the rights of religious minority groups. Reason: they will argue all the time about 'rules' 'haram' and 'halal' based on qu'uranic texts in a literal way. For political reasons they can only identify themselves as Islamic by enforcing do's and dont's from their religion. Thereby ignoring human rights as contradictory to literal 'Islamic' rights. Same here with 'Islamic' schools. They are annoying in arguments about teachers having to wear veils. Books and childrens work being without figures and all that jazz. Tell me, how can one have a democracy like that? See how difficult it is for islamic posters here to go beyond the literal.
posted
What do you think? shouldn't Egypt government give more freedom to christian-copts and save the country from division?
Ichigo, The argument to have Copts kept as second-class citizens is to not annoy the MB and their followers!
Another discriminatory issue. Mosque's and Islamic groups can have western sponsors copts can't for not giving rise to jealousy of muslems and get uproar in the streets. The most beautifull churches that would mean more tourists can't be restored for this stupid reason. To obvious marketing of Christian sites is already a sensitive thing to many.
posted
^ The logistics of an Islamic state is another topic altogether (and for the most part a theoretical one at this time). But there have been Islamic states, nay empire, in the past which lasted for centuries. If we are to debate the merits of such a state and whether it provides sufficient rights and freedoms for the minorities it contains, it behooves us to understand exactly what Islam says on this matter.
In other words, we can't all scream about disadvantages (or benefits) of an Islamic state without thorough knowledge of the teachings of Islam. I suspect few of us are willing to do so and due to our natural tendency to exert minimal effort, would rather engage in fallacious arguments.
Democracies are a new form of governance. In fact, they're no more than a few centuries old (two to be exact). That humans have lived for millenia under certain (other) forms of governance neither supports the value of democracy fully nor discredits other forms (e.g. monarchies, dictatorships or even theocracies). All of these matters require deep analyses (within a historical context) and a social forum such as this one hardly provides the basis for such.
Besides, I'm only here to harrass Horemheb. Posts: 216 | Registered: Dec 2005
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