Article from: Agence France- From correspondents in Cairo
June 21, 2007 05:58am
THE Egyptian parliament overnight criticised the award of a knighthood to writer Salman Rushdie, author of the Satanic Verses, describing it as a worse error than the cartoons of the Prophet Mohammed whose publication sparked riots.
"To honour someone who has offended the Muslim religion is a bigger error still than the publication of caricatures attacking the Prophet Mohammed," said parliamentary speaker Fathi Sorur.
The publication, initially in Danish newspapers, of cartoons depicting the prophet sparked violent protests and bloodshed, including calls for a boycott of Danish products.
Egypt's parliamentary Arab Affairs Committee added its criticism: "To honour someone who has become famous because of his hostility to Islam is a rejection of all diplomatic principles and respect for religions".
Mr Rushdie was knighted on Sunday in Queen Elizabeth II's birthday honours list for his services to literature, becoming Sir Salman.
The award has sparked protests across the Muslim world. Iran - whose late supreme leader Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini sentenced the author to death in 1989 - and Pakistan summoned Britain's ambassadors to protest.
Khomeini's "fatwa" imposing the death sentence, later lifted by Tehran but still threatened by some Islamic groups, resulted in Mr Rushdie spending years in hiding under official British protection.
posted
Rushdie is a great writer, with the exception perhaps of 'The Ground Beneath Her Feet.' Egyptians would be better equipped to decide if he deserved this award for services to literature, if they were allowed to read his books. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Rushdie is a great writer, with the exception perhaps of 'The Ground Beneath Her Feet.' Egyptians would be better equipped to decide if he deserved this award for services to literature, if they were allowed to read his books.
yeah well I dont think egyptian would be running to read Satanic Verses.......
Posts: 431 | From: beantown | Registered: Nov 2006
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I think this is great. Salman Rushdie is a douche, and I do think its a terrible insult for him to be knighted. The guy only maliciously picked apart the prophet, his family, his friends, the revelation of the quran, and the angel Gabriel- aka the roots of Islam. He knew what he was doing, he meant for it to hurt, and theres no need for kind words. And the Satanic Verses are horrible, whoever actually enjoyed them in the first place needs help.
Posts: 140 | From: TX | Registered: Aug 2006
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Yes, unfortuately. I read it because I had to know what all the hub bub was about. And it actually hurt to read it, and it felt like that was his pure intention.
Posts: 140 | From: TX | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Have you read it, Magnona?
I remember that book from Way back in the day... But I have better things to read.. I would never be bothered
Posts: 431 | From: beantown | Registered: Nov 2006
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posted
So, I guess that was a no, Magnona. Sambula, at least your criticisms of the book are based on actually reading it. All people should have the same right to criticise for themselves.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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posted
You prefer to judge a book by its cover? You have the choice to read or not read. Others don't. I respect the opinion of those who read books and make up their own minds.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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SWYS - I havent read it either, although I might do now, but what i cant understand about all this is WHAT has he REALLY done to deserve a knighthood? This is the bit that I am gobsmacked on...You seem to have read his other books, can you give me some idea of what they are about and whether his literary genius warrants a knighthood in your opinion?
Personally i think a man that has offended so many and imo done little else (although i may be corrected on this) should not have been knighted, for the Queen to risk offending so many people in these actions he ought to have done something else pretty spectacular to balance it dont you think?
I found this response from the timesonline which i thought was good:
These violent protests and threats are an embarrassment to British Muslims. When will we learn to protest in a civilised way. All we have to do is reject his books, or buy one and burn it privately in your gardens. Just like how Britz enjoy burning guy folks.
Furthermore, we must defend Home Secretary John Reid because it is written:
Muslims must "obey the laws of the land" they live in : -- Sahih al-Bukhari, no. 2796 & Sunan Tirmidhi)
Muslims must adhere to the laws of any country they live in, whether in the west or the east, as long as the law is not in contradiction with one’s religion.
Mr Blair make me head of The Muslim Council of Britain and I'll sort 'em out.
Mohammed, London, UK
I dont agree with death threats either, I am also curious about who else has been knighted, i dont usually take much notice of these things but this has raised my attention and If they would knight him, then who else? anyone know where i can find a list of recent ones?
Posts: 83 | From: uk | Registered: Jun 2007
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posted
A strange move by the British government to knight Salman Rushdie. It seems like deliberate provocation of the Muslim world. Rushdie has spent years in hiding and when 'Satanic Verses' was almost forgotten and he had some degree of freedom, they decide to do this. It has cost millions of pounds of the British taxpayer's money protecting him in the past and now it will cost as much again, and why would he give up his relative freedom to be Sir Salman Rushdie? Maybe it was Tony Blair's parting gesture.
Posts: 95 | From: New York, New York, so good you have to say it twice! | Registered: Apr 2007
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Firstly, I'm not a supporter of the British honours system, as it stands today.
Is Rushdie a great writer? You can only decide this by reading his work yourself. We all have vastly different tastes. The first book of his I read was Midnight's Children . I thought it was staggeringly good.
Here is some information on what others think of Midnight's Children, as a work of literature:
Not only did he win a Booker Prize , but Midnight's Children was awarded the Booker of Bookers, which means that it is regarded as the best Booker Prize novel in twenty five years. This is pretty impressive and all before the controversial Satanic Verses was even written.
Bibliography
Grimus Gollancz, 1975
Midnight's Children Cape, 1981
Shame Cape, 1983
The Jaguar Smile Picador, 1987
The Satanic Verses Viking, 1988
Haroun and the Sea of Stories Granta, 1990
In Good Faith Granta, 1990
Imaginary Homelands: Essays and Criticism 1981-1991 Granta, 1991
The Wizard of Oz British Film Institute, 1992
East, West Cape, 1994
The Moor's Last Sigh Cape, 1995
The Vintage Book of Indian Writing (co-editor with Elizabeth West) Vintage, 1997
The Ground Beneath Her Feet Cape, 1999
Fury Cape, 2001
Step Across This Line: Collected Non-fiction 1992-2002 Cape, 2002
Shalimar The Clown Cape, 2005
Careless Masters Cape, 2007
Parallelville Vintage, 2007
Contemporary Indian writers, such as Arundhati Roy, Vikram Seth and Salman Rushdie have made a considerable contribution to literature, in my opinion. I am more than happy to see such work recognised. If others disagree on literature, that's fine by me. Only time will tell if his works are true classics. I'm enormously thankful that people have the right to read the books and decide for themselves...or not, in the country I live in.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I have read Satanic Verses and the title accurately reflected the content. It was offensive.
I read that the foreign Office didin't block the award becasue it was on the basis of litreture. What!!! Didn't anyone there think this might just **** up our relationships internally with Muslims, and externally with Muslim countries.
I am disgusted that Britian awarded this idiot anything. I found Midnight Children so boring I couldn't get past the first chapter and I read anything. What on earth had he done to deserve this.
And what is it going to cost the British tax payer increased protection.
-------------------- Jane Akshar UK Co-owner of www.flatsinluxor.co.uk Appartments and Tours in Luxor Posts: 2791 | From: www.flatsinluxor.co.uk, Luxor, Egypt | Registered: Jan 2003
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posted
Oh please...I'm way more offended by Jeffrey Archer's writing style! Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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This is just going to reinforce the idea that Muslims are a bunch of backward savages with no respect for the tenets of Western Civilization, and make people wonder why they should even allow them into their country.
Notice that after the last round of Islamic inspired riots in Europe, the gov'ts of Europe all moved to enact tighter immigration laws, some of which targeted Muslims specifically.
Also, the riots definitely caused native Europeans to vote more to the right than usual.
Another major riot in Europe might cause Europeans to vote to the extreme right in the future.
~Alistair
-------------------- Lies fade like smoke when uncovered..but Truth, burns like fire. Posts: 1221 | Registered: Sep 2006
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They should burn him with is pages stuck in his butt hole and he will have taste of his Santanic waste. I could think of better people to send a knighthood too?ME.Im the boy with the flying ears Posts: 370 | From: I luv me Glasses :) | Registered: Apr 2007
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I love Vikram Seth. Can't say I've ever read anything by Rushdie, though. Is it really worth it? Not that I have time right now.... Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin - Bokra Fil Mish Mish: I love Vikram Seth. Can't say I've ever read anything by Rushdie, though. Is it really worth it? Not that I have time right now....
OMG I LOVE VIKRAM SETH! I absolutely loved A Suitable Boy,I just couldnt put it down.
As for this making the Muslim world look "backward" or like "savages"- thats a load of bull ****. The Muslim world has values, like any other culture. I think its absolute crap that Muslims are supposed to accept insult and after insult to the thing we hold most dear. If Europe has lost its respect for religion, thats not our problem. If Europe is offended by the idea of Muslims questioning the holocaust, they should understand that Muslims in turn will feel offended about other issues.
I think people should remember that many books are banned and unavailable for the public in European nations, especially those that deal with "anti semitism". How easy is it to pick up a copy of Mein Kampf in Germany? Or Austria? If people are going to start pulling the freedom of speech crap, they need to look in the mirror first before they start hating on the Muslims.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote: I think its absolute crap that Muslims are supposed to accept insult and after insult to the thing we hold most dear.
Nobody is saying you have to accept it. Just don't torch, blow up, kill, murder and destroy stuff to show your dismay is all I'm saying.
The last round of senseless rioting had consequences, and if there's another round, there'll be even more consequences.
I honestly don't think Muslims understand that all of this mindless violence really does portray them in a terrible light, and turns the rest of the World increasingly against them.
quote: If Europe has lost its respect for religion, thats not our problem.
If Muslims want to live in Europe, they must abide by European laws...period!
And respect for "religion" is certainly not a virtue that it should be missed.
quote:If Europe is offended by the idea of Muslims questioning the holocaust, they should understand that Muslims in turn will feel offended about other issues.
When Europeans bomb, murder, loot, destroy and burn when they're offended, perhaps this sentence will become valid.
~Alistair
-------------------- Lies fade like smoke when uncovered..but Truth, burns like fire. Posts: 1221 | Registered: Sep 2006
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I think people should remember that many books are banned and unavailable for the public in European nations, especially those that deal with "anti semitism".
Really? They ban books in Europe?
I'm serious, I've never heard that. If it's true, that's really pathetic.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Snoozin - Bokra Fil Mish Mish:
quote:Originally posted by hibbah:
I think people should remember that many books are banned and unavailable for the public in European nations, especially those that deal with "anti semitism".
Really? They ban books in Europe?
I'm serious, I've never heard that. If it's true, that's really pathetic.
You can buy Mein Kampf in the UK and Europe. Germany is a notable exception, because of its history and there may be a few others. It would be interesting to have a German perspective on this. I'll decide for myself what books I want to read and thank God I can. I'm confused on Hibbah's comments. Is she advocating censorship or not? Resisting censorship is an ongoing struggle throughout the world.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Many books have also been banned in the UK in the past. For instance, "Lady Chatterley's Lover" was banned for a long time. There have been some recently, but can't think of them off-hand (getting old). I'll try to find a list. Theatre censorship in the UK, believe it not, is still possible!
-------------------- He who smiles rather than rages is always the stronger. Posts: 161 | From: UK | Registered: Mar 2007
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^^ Exactly...which is why censorship is an ongoing struggle - throughout the world. Censorship of literature has progressed a long way, since the 1960's, in western countries...thank God. The internet is an interesting new battleground.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote: I think its absolute crap that Muslims are supposed to accept insult and after insult to the thing we hold most dear.
Nobody is saying you have to accept it. Justdon't torch, blow up, kill, murder and destroy stuff to show your dismay is all I'm saying.
The last round of senseless rioting had consequences, and if there's another round, there'll be even more consequences.
I honestly don't think Muslims understand that all of this mindless violence really does portray them in a terrible light, and turns the rest of the World increasingly against them.
quote: If Europe has lost its respect for religion, thats not our problem.
If Muslims want to live in Europe, they must abide by European laws...period!
And respect for "religion" is certainly not a virtue that it should be missed.
quote:If Europe is offended by the idea of Muslims questioning the holocaust, they should understand that Muslims in turn will feel offended about other issues.
When Europeans bomb, murder, loot, destroy and burn when they're offended, perhaps this sentence will become valid.
~Alistair
Thanks for demonstrating my point. You lack the values Muslims have, AND you lack the ability to recognize the fact that the world does not revolve around you or your values. I dont care if you don't care about religion, but if such a large population of the world does, it is something you should respect out of respect for them. This is an international system.
And who said anything about european Muslims?
Find me something Europeans actually *CARE* about and they're willing to get up and rant about. How about the G8 summit? I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of thousands of demonstrators screaming, insulting, holding up questionable signs, charging the police, causing trouble, etc. Europeans DO raise hell, I'm sorry if fox news has flashed too many images of Muslims from the middle east for you to have forgotten this Even if the only thing they care about is their own economies. Do you know what happened to a McDonalds that was built in the French Country side a little while ago? A White, Christian farmer took a bulldozer and drove into the McDonalds, and broke it down. And he was a hero to the French people. *I'm not suggesting that Europeans actions are comparable to those that some Muslims have, but most Europeans have been sedated by being citizens of developed nations. I'd like to see how you'd come out if you lived in a country where everyones poor, you're surrounded by corruption, and your politicans and the world dont give a crap about what you say. How about Latin America, and how they react to U.S. policies? Remember Bush's last trip to the region? And thats just one example of many from Latin America.You can't compare the actions of the British when they're faced with an obstacle to those of people living in the third world.
That being said, ofcourse I agree that people should protest peacefully, and to MY KNOWLEDGE, you've jumped the gun. As soon as the next British embassy gets bombed because of this, you let me know.
quote: When Europeans bomb, murder, loot, destroy and burn when they're offended, perhaps this sentence will become valid.
~Alistair
So are you suggested the Europeans shouldn't care about being hyprocrites when it comes to freedom of speech, thats what you're saying?
And NO, I'm not supporting the banning of books. My point was, SayWhatYouSee, some posters on here seem to be painting the issue of books being banned a "backward, muslims world" issue.
When its clearly not. Those enlightened, liberal,democratic Europeans seem to be doing the same thing. And Mein Kampf isnt the only example Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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LAHORE: Punjab Assembly speaker Chaudhry Afzal Sahi Thursday declared that according to Islam a blasphemer should be killed and if any blasphemer would come in front of him he would definitely kill him. He said the issue of awarding the title of ‘Sir’ to blasphemer Salman Rushdie was a religious issue. Being a Muslim, he said, he was not ready to compromise on the issue. “I am not a religious scholar, but I want to make it clear that a blasphemer was liable to [be killed],” the speaker said. “First, I am a Muslim and later the Punjab Assembly speaker.”
These people will live in the muck and the mire for lack of money and yet there is always enough money around for rewarding the bloody work on behalf of God, god of murder and mayhem for the mental cases. Nothing like having your priorities straight I guess.
Posts: 3188 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
And NO, I'm not supporting the banning of books. My point was, SayWhatYouSee, some posters on here seem to be painting the issue of books being banned a "backward, muslims world" issue
Hibbah, thanks for clarifying your opposition to the censorship of books. I agree that this is really a global issue, but some countries are woefully behind in terms of human rights.
Everyone should have the right to express views on religion, in my opinion. Absolutely no one has to respect it, simply the right of others to peacefully practice their views. You can't insist that people respect something they consider to be absolute invention, can you? Blasphemy is a reality that all religions have to learn to deal with. There is no other acceptable alternative now that doesn't fundamentally damage human rights.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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LAHORE: Punjab Assembly speaker Chaudhry Afzal Sahi Thursday declared that according to Islam a blasphemer should be killed and if any blasphemer would come in front of him he would definitely kill him. He said the issue of awarding the title of ‘Sir’ to blasphemer Salman Rushdie was a religious issue. Being a Muslim, he said, he was not ready to compromise on the issue. “I am not a religious scholar, but I want to make it clear that a blasphemer was liable to [be killed],” the speaker said. “First, I am a Muslim and later the Punjab Assembly speaker.”
These people will live in the muck and the mire for lack of money and yet there is always enough money around for rewarding the bloody work on behalf of Allah, god of murder and mayhem for the mental cases. Nothing like having your priorities straight I guess.
1. Third world country 2. That politican probably has his pockets lined, probably has the education of a mango seller, and would NEVER "do it himself" 3. Third world country- please stop looking down from your pedestal of the strongest economomy and from your civic society and trying to judge people who are subjugated to dissapearing for demonstrating dissent against their corrupt politicians that are allowed to keep office because of the wants of the U.S. (i.e. Musharaf in this case).
May your confused 3 split God bless you.
Seriously though, ofcourse statements like those are embarassing and outlandish by our standards. One can just hope that these people reach better standards of living, and that they become more educated in many aspects. Pakistan's literacy rate is at something like 48%, what are you gonna expect?
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: And NO, I'm not supporting the banning of books. My point was, SayWhatYouSee, some posters on here seem to be painting the issue of books being banned a "backward, muslims world" issue
Hibbah, thanks for clarifying your opposition to the censorship of books. I agree that this is really a global issue, but some countries are woefully behind in terms of human rights.
Everyone should have the right to express views on religion, in my opinion. Absolutely no one has to respect it, simply the right of others to peacefully practice their views. You can't insist that people respect something they consider to be absolute invention, can you? Blasphemy is a reality that all religions have to learn to deal with. There is no other acceptable alternative now that doesn't fundamentally damage human rights.
I think everyone should have their rights to express their views, sure. BUT- I do believe that we live in a world of increasing interdependece, and we can no longer make certain remarks at whim without considering the consequences. Thats one of the catches of free speech, there are consequences. I don't think that its good diplomacy to insult the Muslim community by doing what the British did. And if they want to do what they did- thats fine, but they couldn't possibly imagine, nor should they imagine that there wouldnt be backlash. If the British have the right to knight a man who wrote a book which insulted every aspect of the birth of Islam, then the Muslim world has the right to be pissed off.
I personally think we should more than just tolerate, but show some respect as well. There are some lifestyles in the US which I dont agree with. But I not only tolerate them, I show them consideration and kindness, atleast as face value, because simply tolerating something is not always enough.
This example just popped in my head. The French President made a comment that British food was some of the worst in the world. Did he have the right? Ofcourse. But what the hell? Theres no tact in that, and all it does is alienate people. The guy is the President of one of the leading insutrialized Nations, a member of the EU, of the UN, of the IMF, etc, etc. His words carry alot of weight, and do affect the people listening.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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quote:Originally posted by hibbah: Thanks for demonstrating my point. You lack the values Muslims have
I consider it to be a compliment that I lack the values found in a 1,200 yr old book written by a man that married a 9yr old girl and who believed in using violence to spread and defend his own belief.
And if Muslims have such great values, why are Muslim countries such sh*tholes of oppression where basic human rights are often ignored?
Like many religious people, you're capable of seeing in one dimensional only Hibbah...atleast when it comes to your own religion.
I'm just glad I didn't fall in the same philosophical and spiritual trap that you did..
quote:AND you lack the ability to recognize the fact that the world does not revolve around you or your values. I dont care if you don't care about religion, but if such a large population of the world does, it is something you should respect out of respect for them. This is an international system.
Oh really, yet I wasn't the one who burned, murdered, bombed, looted and pillaged the last time the "great" religion of Islam was offended.
Islam being offended seems to happen on a regular basis these days doesn't it?
Or maybe it's just Muslims..
quote:And who said anything about european Muslims?
As the U.K is a European nation.....I'll let you figure the rest out.
quote:Find me something Europeans actually *CARE* about and they're willing to get up and rant about. How about the G8 summit? I'm pretty sure there are hundreds of thousands of demonstrators screaming, insulting, holding up questionable signs, charging the police, causing trouble, etc.
Yes, there is a capacity for violence that exists in every population given the right circumstances, but Muslims' capacity for violence doesn't require a very high threshold to set it off, and it's considerably more violent than what the pansy present day Europeans are capable of.
Consider the riots caused by the Danish cartoons.
People died, were threatened with death and there was millions of dollars worth of property damage.
All over some ridiculous cartoons!
quote:*I'm not suggesting that Europeans actions are comparable to those that some Muslims have, but most Europeans have been sedated by being citizens of developed nations.
It's a good thing you said this, because I was just about to nix you on it.
quote:I'd like to see how you'd come out if you lived in a country where everyones poor, you're surrounded by corruption, and your politicans and the world dont give a crap about what you say. How about Latin America, and how they react to U.S. policies? Remember Bush's last trip to the region? And thats just one example of many from Latin America.You can't compare the actions of the British when they're faced with an obstacle to those of people living in the third world.
What you can't seem to understand, is that this doesn't only affect the "third world."
Europe has a significant Muslim population which based on past examples, is very much capable of the same atrocities that your brethren in the third World nations are capable of.
quote:That being said, ofcourse I agree that people should protest peacefully, and to MY KNOWLEDGE, you've jumped the gun. As soon as the next British embassy gets bombed because of this, you let me know.
Oh, I'm sure it will climax from the usual flag burning, chanting, raving," Death to the Queen!" etc into something much more horrific.
quote:So are you suggested the Europeans shouldn't care about being hyprocrites when it comes to freedom of speech, thats what you're saying?
Huh? What I meant was that when Europeans start to blow sh*t up when they're simply offended, then maybe I'll agree with you.
posted
They do blow sh*t up genius. They throw molotov cocktails, they throw paint on the faces of police officers,they burn cars and they die. G8 summit.
And European Muslims have the right to express their dismay at their governments decisions. If people are worred about extremist factions (which DO exist in countries like GB, and which is ENTIRELY the country's own fault in my opinion, for giving "political refugees"- aka terrorist leaders like Altaf Hussein who still runs the MQM from London assylum)then they should work on the population which already exists- try and understand their points of views (which I think the British government has made an effort in) and by providing education for the uneducated and poor Muslim immigrant communities in which extremism festers . Get rid of the problems which cause young men and women to turn towards extremism- don't let them feel alienated; that they can't find jobs, that they don't feel that they have a voice, that they feel that they are discriminated against because of the color of their skin, their last name or their religion. How many British South Asian kids have grown up with the word "Paki" being thrown contemptuously in their face? And as for new immigrants- figure it out. And they have- its extremely difficult for people, especially men, from Muslim countries to gain legal entry into GB.
What I have a problem with is your contempt for Muslims and Islam. For you to suggest such acts are inherently a problem of the Muslim community is wrong- as you can see such forms of violent demonstration are visible in all parts of the world, third world, and developed, muslim, and non-muslim.
I don't EVER take anything you say about Muslims, or Islam, or the Muslim world seriously because I know you hate them. You're a bigot, and because of your bigotry, nothing you say can be taken seriously. If you want any of your words to hold sway, stop making such blatantly discriminatory remarks.
Then again, I think I like your blatant discrimination. Its entertaining.
I had no idea that he had written all those books. I read some reviews of his, and maybe he is a good writer, I cant say. I think my view is that someone who has offended so many people of any faith shouldnt be glorified, It does cause frictin and it does send the wrong message.
Hibbah and conditioned. Even as a muslim myself I dont agree with the amount of violence that goes on and all the threats etc, I believe there are other ways to make a point, without agression, It doesnt solve anything. As I am English I often feel stuck in the middle of these arguements because I can see both sides, I think as an english person, if that makes sense, So I DO think that people should have freedom of speech and be able to make their own minds up, but I also can see why such an act would offend Muslims worldwide, because the book itself is insulting (as were the cartoons) BUT I think that there is no need for all the death threats and burning ephigies (cant spell that i'm afraid and cant be bothered to look). Muslims will never overcome being tarred with the aggression brush if everytime something happens that annoys them they react this way, I would like to think God would want us to do it differently.
Posts: 83 | From: uk | Registered: Jun 2007
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quote:And European Muslims have the right to express their dismay at their governments decisions.
Again, nobody is saying they can't. It's how they do it which is important.
quote:Get rid of the problems which cause young men and women to turn towards extremism- don't let them feel alienated; that they can't find jobs, that they don't feel that they have a voice, that they feel that they are discriminated against because of the color of their skin, their last name or their religion
Oh spare me the "Muslims are helpless victims" mantra!
The Muslims that blew up the London buses were not from poor backgrounds nor were they all Pakistanis.
I have no compassion whatsoever for weak minded suicide bombers.
I do agree with you on one thing though. The British are very weak when it comes to dealing with extremist elements in their own country.
quote:What I have a problem with is your contempt for Muslims and Islam.
I've always admitted I despise Islam, just like I despise all organized religions.
They are festering sores on the face of Mankind, and one day, they will all expire and be cast aside to the dark recesses of history where they belong.
So me hating Islam is true. Never denied it.
As for me hating Muslims, thats not true.
Hating someone simply because they practice Islam is illogical, because I believe that the morality and personal worth of an individual is completely and utterly independent of his or her religious beliefs or piety.
Many religious fanatics afterall are thorougly evil, while many Muslims in name only are very respectable moral people.
The complexity and variation of human consciousness ensures that Muslims will have the same spectrum of morality that other populations have.
In other words, there will always be good Muslims and bad Muslims.
So you see dear Hibbah, as much as you'd like to believe I hate all Muslims, I don't.
Actually, I've even dated a number of Muslim girls, and I've traveled to several Muslim nations
Since I possess discriminative intelligence, I find it ridiculous to hate an entire group of people simply because.....
Sorry to burst your bubble
quote:You're a bigot, and because of your bigotry, nothing you say can be taken seriously
Oh, and you're not a bigot I suppose.
I've never met anyone who was religious that wasn't a bigot.
Religion as a matter of fact, is a form of bigotry.
You have your beliefs, and even if I were to use logic and dismantle them one at a time, you'd still adhere stubbornly to your faith like a cockroach on the windshield of a car on the highway.
Thats why they call it "faith."
So you see, you too are a bigot Hibbah
~Alistair
-------------------- Lies fade like smoke when uncovered..but Truth, burns like fire. Posts: 1221 | Registered: Sep 2006
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Hibbah to Undercover: ''May your confused 3 split God bless you.''
How can Hibbah demand religious tolerance for muslims while spitting out religious insults to christians? It makes no sense. Hibbah says what she likes about religion yet seems to want to limit the right of others. Everyone should have the right to express a view on religion. Hibbah, Alistair, Rushdie, The Pope, Jews, Muslims and every other person. It's not Rushdie that is the problem - it's those who want to kill him or oppress him for writing a book. A BOOK ! Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Tarka: ''I had no idea that he had written all those books. I read some reviews of his, and maybe he is a good writer, I cant say. I think my view is that someone who has offended so many people of any faith shouldnt be glorified, It does cause frictin and it does send the wrong message.''
Tarka, Rushdie was knighted for services to literature. He is a good writer. He is also a controversial one but is that a reason to deny his contribution? Muslims, like Christians and other religions have to understand that the views of those of faith are no more or less important than the views of those opposing faith.
The wider argument concerns the sensitivity of awarding this honour, given the criticism Rushdie has received. What is the wrong message though? That writers should be ignored as their freedom of expression offends some? For decades christians have made similar protests about blasphemy. They might not like it, but they have learned mostly to accept the freedom of expression of those with different views. More Muslims will too, in time, I hope. If Satanic Verses had been given less attention, Rushdie would not have the level of attention he has now. He would still be a good writer though, imho.
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: Hibbah says what she likes about religion yet seems to want to limit the right of others.
Like I said earlier, religious people often only have a one dimensional perspective.
They can't help it.. It's their nature, because bigotry is central to their belief system
~Alistair
Alistair, I'm sure we can agree that bigotry is not the preserve of the religious alone. What I find alarming is the extreme lack of tolerance shown by some religious people, to other religious people, on this forum. Of course, non religious folks can be intolerant too, (before some lame brain pops up and states this ) but the sheer venom displayed by some of the falsely pious is sickening and all too obvious in the wider world. Christian against Christian and Muslim against Muslim is the most horrific demonstration of this wickedness - all in the name of someone's 'God'. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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''They do blow sh*t up genius. They throw molotov cocktails, they throw paint on the faces of police officers,they burn cars and they die. G8 summit.''
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't G8 protestors come from all over the world and from different religious backgrounds? Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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quote:Originally posted by hibbah: They do blow sh*t up genius. They throw molotov cocktails, they throw paint on the faces of police officers,they burn cars and they die. G8 summit.
The French did it last year when the government introduced a new labor law or something like that. They rioted, burnt and blew up just about everything in their way.
But of course all that pales in comparison to Europe's history of aggression against innocent people everywhere.
I personally have no problems with that faggot being knighted or whatever. I mean it is not like being knighted is actually an honor, what the **** is a knight anyways? A faggot being knighted by a queen It all fits.
And yes he has the right to freedom of expression the same as those who reject the Holocaust and those who wish to honor Bin Laden for his Jihad against evil.
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SWYS - I do see your point, well defended I might add. See that fence over there? that where i'm gonna sit for the rest of this conversation I'm not sure I can really contribute anyway, having not read his books, how do I know how good/bad they are?
I still dont think they should have knighted him and I would think that If he had made a mockery or insulted anyones religion, out of principle. I'm sure I would disagree with alot of people that have been knighted though in fairness. I will let you intelligent people carry on your discussion Posts: 83 | From: uk | Registered: Jun 2007
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Tarka, intelligence? ES? Am I on the right forum? As I said before, I am not a supporter of the British Honours system, as it stands. Look at the politicians and assorted captains of industry that have been knighted. Most of them have insulted a fair few people along the way.
Your contribution has been as 'intelligent' as anyone's...so hop off that fence when you are ready. Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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I will say this ES and the Media is over hyping Rushies's knighthood. Caller after caller on this radio program I heard in a taxi pretty much said "who cares about rushdie and any western honor they bestow him".
I read the first few sentences by David Wells (tigerlilly knighthood thread) and it was obvious the Media is relentless, and blatantly biased when it comes to Islam. The truth is Rushdies's knighthood is inconsequential and it is irrelevant. David Wells claimed " the Muslim world is about to ignite". Where? Has Mr.Wells even visited a Muslim country?
The history of knighthood is one of degenerative prestige and history would prove this fact. Royal tyrants commending subject tyrants is anything but ethical and respectable. I know we've seen Bono and Paul McCartney knighted in recent years but this does not change the ugly history behind this English title.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
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quote:Originally posted by SayWhatYouSee: ''They do blow sh*t up genius. They throw molotov cocktails, they throw paint on the faces of police officers,they burn cars and they die. G8 summit.''
Correct me if I'm wrong but don't G8 protestors come from all over the world and from different religious backgrounds?
The majority of protestors at the G8 summit are European. And yes- the POINT is that they come from different religious backgrounds- mob violence is not particular to any group of people.
Posts: 1967 | From: USA | Registered: Oct 2006
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Think that all the points on this post are valid. But Salman Rushdie has been honoured by his booker awards for his 'writing skills' and i think that was enough. To award a knighthood to a man who has offended millions of people around the world is insensitive and unecessary - and would only serve as provacation.
I once wrote an essay in sociology which the teacher had set on the 'fors' of children being brought up in communes away from their parents. I argued against it constructively - i got an F. I sat with my teacher and said you cannot fail me because i don't agree with your opinion when i have explained fully why - she eventually agreed and i got a A. We will never all agree with what is right in the world and should always have a right to express our opinion - but to be knighted for expressing an opinion when you have had to be protected from people who hate you for it is offensive.
Would have been better to give it to David Beckham??!!
Posts: 31 | Registered: Jun 2007
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''...but to be knighted for expressing an opinion when you have had to be protected from people who hate you for it is offensive.''
There is no doubt that this award served a political message, as well as an acknowledgment for literary excellence. Satanic Verses is a work of FICTION. Many people are offended that writers can't write a BOOK, without religious people screaming 'Blasphemy' and threatening to kill the author. If you don't like this - don't buy the book. What about the rights of all of those who aren't offended?
Posts: 2953 | From: Slightly south of Azkaban. | Registered: Aug 2006
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Sambula, at least your criticisms of the book are based on actually reading it. All people should have the same right to criticise for themselves.
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Resisting censorship is an ongoing struggle throughout the world.
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Europeans DO raise hell, I'm sorry if fox news has flashed too many images of Muslims from the middle east for you to have forgotten this 
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