I wanted to share this short documentary about the apartheid wall in Palestine and the suffering caused to the Palestinian people. It was directed by a good friend of mine, Nizar Abu Zayyad. I think his talent is evident and I hope you all will watch this. Thank you!
I wonder how much longer the international community can ignore the plight of these people.
Posts: 1879 | From: Going to Graceland | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Thanks for watching Om. I agree it is very saddening especially the older gentleman, his speech touched me.
Posts: 1879 | From: Going to Graceland | Registered: Nov 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
What’s also alarming is the fact that such wall(s) are encompassing and literally annexing Palestine's territories. You routinely read and hear ‘well the Palestinians/Arabs lost the wars of 48, 56 and 67 and Israel as a victor has the right to those territories.
I personally don’t contend this fact. The Palestinians won’t have those lands returned. What I do contend is the annexation of Palestinian territories after the wars and such usually begins with Jews settling in Arab owned lands. This is now followed by the creation of a Wall that goes deep into Arab territory and making such lands part of Israel and only accessible from Israel.
Jerusalem is a great and simple example. Under the 1949 UN Armistice line West Jerusalem was given to Israel/Jews, while East Jerusalem was given to Palestinian Muslims and Christians. Now what does Israel do? It simply did not take East Jerusalem it took equivalent of 20 times the landmass of all Jerusalem from the surrounding areas of Jerusalem, in essence it was rightfully given half of a city but it took the other half of the city and several counties around it. This bloody wall has made such territories part of Israel.
This is just around Jerusalem but the situation is similar in other parts of the west bank.
The shame in all of this is the fact the United States using its veto power in the UN Security Council has repeatedly vetoed any and all resolutions condemning Israel’s blatant actions.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
neither the United States or Israel has anything to gain by creating a palestinian state. The Israelis have created what amounts to Indian reservations and will take more and more land until they control it all. To the victor go the spoils.
-------------------- The spirit of Horemheb lives on within us all. Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Why does *everything* have to be about what America gains? Can't we just do something for once that is for the sake of humanity? Why do you think those two goals are mutually exclusive?
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
No nation does anything for the sake of humanity. In some cases our values and interests dove tail, as they are doing in Iraq.
-------------------- The spirit of Horemheb lives on within us all. Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
ANYWAY, yes it was a nice video Alchemist, thanks for that. We should not forget the suffering of the people there. I can't imagine what they have endured.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanHammer: neither the United States or Israel has anything to gain by creating a palestinian state. The Israelis have created what amounts to Indian reservations and will take more and more land until they control it all. To the victor go the spoils.
I can only respect and admire such candor - even if it leaves me stung.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanHammer: neither the United States or Israel has anything to gain by creating a palestinian state. The Israelis have created what amounts to Indian reservations and will take more and more land until they control it all. To the victor go the spoils.
I can only respect and admire such candor - even if it leaves me stung.
Since when is stupidity the same as candor?
Posts: 173 | Registered: Aug 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Earth calling reserved, is anybody home? Last time we all looked there is no Palestinian state and we have had 60 years to create one. Sometimes you have to put emotions aside and look at reality.
-------------------- The spirit of Horemheb lives on within us all. Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanHammer: neither the United States or Israel has anything to gain by creating a palestinian state. The Israelis have created what amounts to Indian reservations and will take more and more land until they control it all. To the victor go the spoils.
I can only respect and admire such candor - even if it leaves me stung.
Since when is stupidity the same as candor?
Such opinion expressed by hammer reflects the mentality of a good portion of Americans. I personally know this and hearing it again and again only reminds me of the fact that many Americans possess an uncompassionate sanguinary mentality. Such abhorrence and hatred for certain peoples is not new in American society. Hammer alluded to the vile and murderous treatment of American Indians and after them history recorded the hatred, slavery and injustices against Africans. The demonization of Arabs and the killing of Muslims is simply a modern era reenactment of American’s habitual transgression against humanity. This of course in the minds of the twisted translates to patriotism and really what else is there to expect from rooted iniquity.
Over the summer i spoke to a friend and i asked him if he still renewed his season tickets to the Giants games. He said it is hard to cheer in the stands knowing many of those there advocated the slaughter of Muslims.
He is right and this is a fact and people should know that America's corruptness is not limited to politicians. It also extends to a good portion of the population.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Prince of Nothing: So let me ask you something Dunes.
WHY was this wall built in the first place?
Do you think the Israelis built it with the sole reason of pissing off the Palestinians?
Unless you attempt to see it from the other perspective, you'll never understand the Israeli-Palestinian crisis.
~Alistair [/QUOTE
Direct me to an honest source and I may confidently answer your question. The Israeli’s claim it was built for security reasons. The Palestinians assert it was built to annex their territories.
So I rationalized and studied this wall and in my opinion both parties are correct. However if you click on the link below, you can clearly see for yourselves that huge amounts of Palestinian lands are annexed by Israel. They could have simply built such a wall along the border if it is solely for security. That is however not the case because the wall goes deep inside Palestinian territory annexing prime arable lands.
Map of wall (high resolution and in PDF format) open with Explorer if it doesn’t open with firefox.
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: Direct me to an honest source and I may confidently answer your question. The Israeli’s claim it was built for security reasons. The Palestinians assert it was built to annex their territories.
It's difficult to find an unbiased, honest source in this matter, but you can look at this logically.
I personally believe that Israel built this wall for security reasons, and not to annex Palestinian lands.
Reason being, Israel has actually GIVEN BACK much of the lands it took from the Arabs in the many wars and skirmishes it fought against them.
If Israel solely wanted land, they had plenty of opportunity to take and keep it.
Ever since Israel re-constituted as a nation, it has suffered relentless attacks from Arab Muslims, both foreign and domestic.
In light of this, I cannot help but nod in agreement with Israel's RIGHT to protect itself as it sees fit.
Will Palestinians suffer because of the wall? Ofcourse they will...
That is an unfortunate consequence, but one that the Palestinians have brought upon themselves by their refusal to acknowledge Israel.
Whether Israel is illegal or legal does not enter the equation.
The fact is, ISRAEL IS HERE TO STAY, and no amount of suicide bombers or RPGs is going to change this.
Even the Egyptians gave up on this useless endeavour, after years of war.
However, the Palestinians are stubborn beyond belief in thinking they could usurp Israel with their limited means....and they are destroying themselves in the process.
You have to admit, with all of the billions of dollars in aid money given to the Palestinians each year with no strings attached, you'd think they would put the money to good use and raise themselves out of their pit of despair.
But no....they continue to live in squalor.
And they always will, because they can't get over Israel..
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: Direct me to an honest source and I may confidently answer your question. The Israeli’s claim it was built for security reasons. The Palestinians assert it was built to annex their territories.
It's difficult to find an unbiased, honest source in this matter, but you can look at this logically.
I personally believe that Israel built this wall for security reasons, and not to annex Palestinian lands.
Reason being, Israel has actually GIVEN BACK much of the lands it took from the Arabs in the many wars and skirmishes it fought against them.
If Israel solely wanted land, they had plenty of opportunity to take and keep it.
Ever since Israel re-constituted as a nation, it has suffered relentless attacks from Arab Muslims, both foreign and domestic.
In light of this, I cannot help but nod in agreement with Israel's RIGHT to protect itself as it sees fit.
Will Palestinians suffer because of the wall? Ofcourse they will...
That is an unfortunate consequence, but one that the Palestinians have brought upon themselves by their refusal to acknowledge Israel.
Whether Israel is illegal or legal does not enter the equation.
The fact is, ISRAEL IS HERE TO STAY, and no amount of suicide bombers or RPGs is going to change this.
Even the Egyptians gave up on this useless endeavour, after years of war.
However, the Palestinians are stubborn beyond belief in thinking they could usurp Israel with their limited means....and they are destroying themselves in the process.
You have to admit, with all of the billions of dollars in aid money given to the Palestinians each year with no strings attached, you'd think they would put the money to good use and raise themselves out of their pit of despair.
But no....they continue to live in squalor.
And they always will, because they can't get over Israel..
~Alistair
You ask for logic yet I fail to see any logic in you stating:
“Israel has actually GIVEN BACK much of the lands it took from the Arabs in the many wars and skirmishes it fought against them."
What lands are you referring to? The only land returned was Sinai to the Egyptians and this was the result of the Camp David peace accord. If you are referring to Southern Lebanon then technically that was not an occupation. It was a security buffer zone one that lasted from 1985 until 2000 and arguably it was for security reasons. Such military operation was just that and it was known to the world that it was just that a military operation.
The Golan Heights, West Bank (issue @ hand) and Gaza remain under Israeli occupation. However neither the Golan, Sinai, South Lebanon or Gaza are topics of this discussion. The topic is the wall, a wall that runs vertical and horizontal in the West Bank. There are a few more unnecessary points we need to eliminate in order to bring reasonability and constructiveness to this topic:
We all know Israel is here to stay. We all know that Israel retaliates as it sees fit. We all the that the Palestinian authority is corrupt and squanders it’s money.
The matter at hand is the wall and this wall is not simply for security reasons. It also annexes prime Palestinian lands. Lands that are annexed this very day and this fact is proven with maps, witnesses, observers and UN reports. The wall itself attests the annexation of Palestinian lands.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Sobriquet: The only land returned was Sinai to the Egyptians and this was the result of the Camp David peace accord.
I'm talking about Sinai, the West Bank and Gaza.
quote:The Golan Heights, West Bank (issue @ hand) and Gaza remain under Israeli occupation.
They are under Israeli occupation, not CONTROL.
And the reason for this occupation, is because as always, the Palestinians can't stop themselves from lobbing rockets and sending suicide bombers into Israeli territory. Israel has to patrol these areas because they are used as staging points for terrorist attacks on Israel.
Just look at what happened after Israel handed over control of Gaza and the West Bank.
Now Hamas and Fatah are at each other's throats trying to kill each other and the entire place is a War zone.
The West Bank and Gaza were much better places when they were under Israeli control....even for the Palestinians that lived there.
quote:The matter at hand is the wall and this wall is not simply for security reasons. It also annexes prime Palestinian lands. Lands that are annexed this very day and this fact is proven with maps, witnesses, observers and UN reports. The wall itself attests the annexation of Palestinian lands.
The other issues matter, because they explain the REASON for the wall itself.
You claim that the Israelis are using the Wall to illegally annex Palestinian lands.
But, if the Israelis wanted land, they could easily have it without having to resort to such subterfuge.
The Israelis have even given land back to the Palestinians as I've already mentioned.
Therefore, the only other reason is SECURITY.
The Palestinians are extremely chaotic and have never truly given up hope of destroying the state of Israel.
For the Israelis to protect themselves, they've had to resort to building a wall to separate themselves from the Palestinians as much as possible.
This may be distasteful to alot of people, but we don't know what it feels like to be under constant threat of suicide bombers or rocket attacks.
quote:Originally posted by Prince of Nothing: [QUOTE]This may be distasteful to alot of people, but we don't know what it feels like to be under constant threat of suicide bombers or rocket attacks.
On the flip side I don't think any of us know what it feels like to be kicked out of our homes leaving our furniture, pictures, etc. behind, watching loved ones starve to death on the journey to whatever refugee camp we're being sent to. Our families being separated without knowledge of their wheareabouts, etc.
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
It is very moving Alchemist. The old man spoke from the heart about how they were suffering, There seems to be no compassion at all.
Posts: 4476 | From: Scotland | Registered: Mar 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
Many of you seem to lack the ability to look at the issue through the eyes of Israel. Israel would be crazy to create a hostile state on thier own borders when they have other options. The solution is relocation of the Palestinians to other nearby nations. There is more than enough land to acomplish this purpose. We are one war away from this as the only solution. Again, what does Isreal have to gain by giving up land to create a state for the Palestinians?
-------------------- The spirit of Horemheb lives on within us all. Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanHammer: Many of you seem to lack the ability to look at the issue through the eyes of Israel. Israel would be crazy to create a hostile state on thier own borders when they have other options. The solution is relocation of the Palestinians to other nearby nations. There is more than enough land to acomplish this purpose. We are one war away from this as the only solution. Again, what does Isreal have to gain by giving up land to create a state for the Palestinians?
Israel has 225 million hostile Arabs surrounding it! 1 Billion Muslims surrounding it! An enemy begets an enemy, you think the status quo will remain. In about 20 to 30 years(and some in 12-15 years) 5-8 Arab nations will have nuclear energy. Make your own conclusion. I will quote my own dad “Arabs are too insane to possess nuclear weapons, they won’t hesitate to use them”
The man has a point.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
Arabs will not be allowed to use nuclear weapons vs Israel. What you seem to be saying is that since Israel faces nuclear anniliation they should make the situation even worse by backing up...either way, according to your theory, they would lose. I do agree with you that nuclear engergy in the area will be the major issue in the future and this is what President Bush meant the other day when he mentioned World War III. If the arabs take that option there will no longer be a billion of them, rest assured, and after it was over they still would not have Palestine.
Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanHammer: Arabs will not be allowed to use nuclear weapons vs Israel. What you seem to be saying is that since Israel faces nuclear anniliation they should make the situation even worse by backing up...either way, according to your theory, they would lose. I do agree with you that nuclear engergy in the area will be the major issue in the future and this is what President Bush meant the other day when he mentioned World War III. If the arabs take that option there will no longer be a billion of them, rest assured, and after it was over they still would not have Palestine.
Put it this way Hammer: I plan to retire in Tahiti and many American Jews want no part in living in Israel – because according to them they deem it as short term residency. It is hopeless and a testament to the failure of administration after administration in this regard.
You know I make a valid point. Peace is the only option and mutual peace at that. Please don’t turn this around on me because it is you who believes Israel could maintain it’s apartheid state and I believe it can not.
It is a shame that intellectuals who voice such concerns are swept under the rug by mass media. It is impossible for Israel to sustain it’s oppression over Arabs. We will see an emerging Russia and emerging China in the next few decades and Arabs will make good use of that and ultimately it will be nuclear weapons.
You agree or disagree?
When this region is destroyed will you then say oh how foolish of Israel to have withheld the west bank?
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
No, I do not agree at all. If any arab nation launched a nuclear weapon they would be destroyed within minutes. Secondly, Israel does not maintain an aparthied state. Israel looks out for its own interest, as does every state. I do agree with you that the area could well be destroyed but if it is it will be to the disadvantage of those who spark the war.
When you project the future in terms of decades it is difficult to make the kind of sweeping predictions you want to make. Your anti Israel bias leads you to conclusions that favor that position. Here is the botton line...The United States has the same military power as the next twenty strongest nations (including China) in the world COMBINED. The gap is not shrinking, it is growing wider. Further, It is highly unlikely that Iran and its nuclear capability will survive the Bush administration. Every indication is that the president does not want to leave the problem to the person who follows him. I could more easily see a much larger Israel fifty years from now than the senario you outlined. I do agree with you that a major war at some point is highly likely, but not a slam dunk. The Muslim nations will have to westernize over the long term or they will not survive.
Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^ The thing is there is a precedent to America’s defeat and that is Vietnam. It is possible and we are witnessing it now again in Iraq. I am a man of reason and I believe in many things you say unlike many members here who know jack about politics. I did hypothesize but was I very far off with regards to Arabs acquiring nuclear weapons? Iran is in the process of complete nuclear activity, the GCC (Gulf Cooperation Council) are ambitious to start their nuclear programs, and Egypt actually has the technology know how to make a bomb. Russia is becoming more authoritarian and china is becoming stronger militarily and economically. I believe it will ultimately be a situation where America would be incapable of doing anything about it. Especially if Democrats are in the White House
The Iran thing is trickier than we all think. Logically looking at it – Iran would lose its nuclear program by America’s bombing but the Shia backed militas in Iraq will have a new arsenal to fight American forces in Iraq. Did you read about the new IED the ones supplied by Iran? Each one on average kills 2.5 American soldiers. GIs would rather fight Al-Qaeda soliders in the north than face these new copper EID that penetrate M1-Tanks.
Don’t think it is that simple. Persians are very clever people and they know they have America corned in Iraq.
As far as Israel growing well you know how that goes, the more land you occupy the more you have to defend and ultimately you are stretched too thin and eventually defeated.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
First of all American deaths in Iraq are very very low in terms of what we usually expect in a war. One of the reasons is that it is not really a war at all. American power in Iraq has ground down the enemy over time and what you are seeing now is the beginning of the end for segments of the opposition.
Further, there is no possibility of American forces leaving Iraq in the next decade regardless of who wins the election. When has America ever left anyplace where there was money? Vietnam is not a good analogy for a number of reasons. It simply did not occupy the vital spot in the global economy that the middle east does at this time. Further, the Vietnam war could have easily been won had we turned up the heat. Many of us wondered at the time why we were fighting the thing with one hand tied behind our back. Resolve is much greater in Iraq and despite what you hear from the far left there is no real peace movement in America today. Certanily nothing like that of the Vietnam era. If Iran is attacked and we do not pull out of Iraq over the next ten years your entire projection has to be altered. As for China and Russia. Russia does not have the money to be much more than a nusance. That is why the Soviet Union collapsed. As for china, the darling of America haters everywhere keep a few things in mind. First, American is china's biggest market and a huge chunk of its exports. China will do nothing to damage that relationship. In addition the Clinton and Bush administrations have quietly built alliances aimed at surrounding China with overwhelming military power in Japan, South Korea and Vietnam. Japan , right now, has the fourth largest Navy in the world. Do not make the mistake of paying too much attention to the left in American policics. Regardless of which party is in the White House the left is generally disregarded. You will see more and more American intrusion into the middle east, especially if the region heats up....Russia and China will do nothing.
-------------------- The spirit of Horemheb lives on within us all. Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I agree the deaths are very low now and pretty much average only 1000 a year but we are talking about insurgent fighters who are simply armed with small firearms and a few EID. Give these bandits a more powerful arsenal and see how much more devastation this could reap on American forces. Rule # 1: Never ever underestimate the enemy. The 1000 deaths a month could literally increase ten fold.
I know very well American forces won’t leave Iraq as is. This is evident with the fact that one of America’s greatest military strengths are the stationed forces in Gulf nations. Frankly I am concerned about Russia and I am not the only one. Never underestimate the pride of Russians and while they might lack money …. Their military has sure not acted like it. Their military budget has grown considerably over the past several years. Their Nuclear program is livelier than ever. Russian aircraft are actually running mock operations in international airspace with striking distance of the United States. It is all about interests and clearly there is a conflict of interest here.
I think you failed to see my point with regards to China. We all know that China adores the American market. This is an undisputable fact. China is however growing at more than 10% annually (GDP) they average around $7,000 a person now. You think they will remain quiet over Taiwan. You think they will remain quiet over Gas/Oil distribution and again you are right it is a matter of self interest. Do you not see a conflict of interest here. Are you not aware that the Chinese government supports the Junta in Myanmmar because China is adamant about building an oil pipeline across Myanmmar to have access to the Bay of Bengal in case the straits of Malacca are jeopardize by American naval forces. This is a multi-Billion dollar project with one thing in mind and that is self interest.
I don’t know why you simply dismiss these long term threats?! You think because America and China are on good business terms now that ulterior animosity will forever be subdued. Don't count on the Koreans because their will be reunification and American forces will be redepolyed.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by doodlebug: America and China are on good business terms???
Sure. We buy 20% of everything they export.
I thought that due to the recent recalls of a LOT of their goods that our relations have soured a bit.
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by Prince of Nothing: They are under Israeli occupation, not CONTROL.
What's the difference? Seriously, if Al Qaeda had a lot more power and they started an all out fight with your country and as a result you were "under Al Qaeda occupation", would you be content? You would have to ask them permission for just about every movement you made. Would that not bother you at all and would you still feel free?
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanHammer: The Israelis have created what amounts to Indian reservations and will take more and more land until they control it all. To the victor go the spoils.
Are you aware of article 49 of the Geneva convention, which btw Israel signed?
Article 49 Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.
Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons do demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased. The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.
The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.
The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.
The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies. Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by doodlebug: America and China are on good business terms???
Sure. We buy 20% of everything they export.
I thought that due to the recent recalls of a LOT of their goods that our relations have soured a bit.
Well, I know buying stuff made in China is not my favorite thing. I just went into a cute little toy shop near my office today, looking for a couple of things for my son. I could not find one thing that wasn't made in China. Stuff had *U.S. Patent Pending* on it, right next to *Made in China.*
So, there might be a dent, but we're still buying from them.
Posts: 8794 | From: 01-20-09 The End of an Error | Registered: Dec 2004
| IP: Logged |
posted
Doodlebug, Just exactly who is going to enforce the Geneva Conventions? Lets try to keep the converstaion out of utopia and in the real world.
-------------------- The spirit of Horemheb lives on within us all. Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanHammer: Doodlebug, Just exactly who is going to enforce the Geneva Conventions? Lets try to keep the converstaion out of utopia and in the real world.
This is a valid point because Israel’s human rights violations run parallel with the unjust foreign policies of the United States. Until these policies change expect Israel to continue it disregard for human rights and very much to the open blessings of the United States.
Countless Security Council resolutions condemning Israel’s flagrant human rights violations have been vetoed by the United States.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
American foreign policy is not unjust, that a crock of baloney. Nobody disregards human rights more than arab/muslims. The fact is, and you have a real hard time with this, is that foreign policy is not just or unjust, it is what it is. Every nation acts in its own SELF INTEREST. Most middle eastern nations are strong american allies because that is in their self interest. All of this emotionalism some of you want to inject into the process has no place at all.
-------------------- The spirit of Horemheb lives on within us all. Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
^^ I believe politicians and lobbyists use impassioned speeches when trying to sway foreign policy. Such emotion ultimately affects decisions hence many aspects of foreign polices are affected by such emotions even if they are hatred based. The powerful Zionist lobby is a classic example.
Peace is in the best interests of the American people probably not for corporations such as Boeing, General dynamic, Lockheed martin, Halliburton, oil companies, etc but most definitely in the best interest of American people.
Most recently the children’s health bill would not have been vetoed if America was not occupying Iraq.
Posts: 2079 | From: 'by any means necessary' - Malcom X | Registered: Mar 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
First of all the Children's health bill was not a children's bill at all. It should have been vetoed because it gave health care to people who could afford to buy their own. This bill covered people up to tewnty five years old, last time I looked a twenty five year old was not a child.
Secondly, there is no Zionist lobby. That is a myth created by Islamo Fascists who hate and murder people on a regular basis and would like to destroy the jews. Its the same argument the nazis used in the 1920's and 30's.
Thirdly, the companies you mentioned supply us with oil and gas for our cars, planes to fly us to places we need to go and construction projects to make the world a better place. They also give millions of Americans GREAT jobs and a great standard of living. What is GOOD for business is GOOD for the average Anerican whom it serves.
As for Iraq there is no alternative. The policy was designed by the smartenst foreign policy people we have AND IS SUPPORTED by almost every middle eastern government. That it is not supported by a bunch of half educated religious nuts on the arab street means nothing, they have no power.
Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF) Continue Systematic Attacks on Palestinian Civilians and Property in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (OPT)
A Palestinian was killed by IOF in the Gaza Strip. A Palestinian died from a wound he had sustained during an extra-judicial execution attempt carried out by IOF. 17 Palestinians, including 8 children, were wounded by IOF. IOF carried out 2 extra-judicial executions against Palestinians in the Gaza Strip, but they failed. IOF conducted 21 incursions into Palestinian communities in the West Bank and 3 ones into the Gaza Strip. IOF arrested 34 Palestinian civilians in the West Bank. IOF razed at least 100 donums[1] of agricultural land and destroyed a number of civilian facilities in the northern Gaza Strip town of Beit Hanoun. IOF have continued to impose a total siege on the OPT. IOF have isolated the Gaza Strip from the outside world and a humanitarian crisis has emerged. Palestinian civilians from the West Bank and the Gaza Strip have been denied access to the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. IOF troops arrested 4 Palestinian civilians, including a child, at checkpoints in the West Bank. IOF confiscated at least 1,130 donums of Palestinian land in East Jerusalem to construct new sections of the Annexation Wall. IOF have continued settlement activities in the West Bank and Israeli settlers have continued to attacks Palestinian civilians and property. IOF started to establish a road for settlers inside Palestinian communities in the north of Jerusalem.
Posts: 1808 | From: USA | Registered: Aug 2006
| IP: Logged |
quote:Originally posted by TheAmericanHammer: Secondly, there is no Zionist lobby. That is a myth created by Islamo Fascists who hate and murder people on a regular basis and would like to destroy the jews. Its the same argument the nazis used in the 1920's and 30's.
September 24, 2007
Only Cheney Knows for Sure Just How Powerful is the Israel Lobby? By SHERWOOD ROSS
How large a role does the "Israeli Lobby" play in shaping U.S. policy in the Middle East?
Some answers may be contained in The Israel Lobby and U.S. Foreign Policy (Farrar, Straus & Giroux), by John Mearsheimer and Stephen Walt, reviewed in the Sept. 23 New York Times, and Rulers and Ruled in The U.S. Empire by James Petras, just published by Clarity Press. Mearsheimer teaches at the University of Chicago and Walt teaches at Harvard.
According to Petras, a sociologist at Binghamton University, New York, the pro-Zionist "power configuration" is not just the American Israeli Public Affairs Committee(AIPAC). The Zionist lobby is so powerful, Petras argues, it "calls the shots" and "supports the escalation of the Iraq war and the savaging of Palestine, Somalia and Afghanistan."
"It (the Lobby") has neutralized the biggest and most concerted efforts by big name centrist political figures to alter White House policy," including James Baker, (former Secretary of State under the first president Bush,) former president Carter and "protesting former military commanders" in Iraq.
Petras charges, "the White House is putting into practice the war strategy presented by the American' Enterprise Institute, which he dubs a Zioncon thinktank. Led by "arch-Zionist" Michael Ledeen a resident scholar of AEI, "some in the Jewish Lobby dismissed the Baker Iraq Study Group as the realists and anti-Semites.'" The ISG "was unable to deal with Israeli violence against Palestinians or enter into a dialogue with Syria and Iran on any but the most narrow and unpromising terms," Petras asserted.
Petras goes on to say the Lobby includes investment bank Goldman Sachs, which exerts a "dominant presence" in the Bush government. Among its alumni are Joshua Bolton, White House Chief of Staff; Robert Steel, former GS vice chairman who advises Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson on domestic finance; and Assistant Secretary of State Randall Fort, an adviser to Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice. Paulson is a former chairman and CEO of GS.
What's more, Petras writes, high Bush officials from the Lobby have played top Pentagon policymaking roles and have "longstanding and deep ties with the Israeli state." Elliott Abrams, President Bush's deputy national security advisor, Petras writes, is a "stern defender of Jewish purity and intimate collaborator with the Israeli high command" and "gave full support in early summer to an Israeli plan to destroy Hezbollah," a month before last year's controversial border incident when two Israeli soldiers were captured. David Wurmser, former Mideast adviser to Vice President Cheney is also an "Israeli Firster", according to Petras.
"An examination of AIPAC's agenda shows a new war against Iran on behalf of Israel at the top of its list of priorities," Petras asserts. "For the last three years, the publications, conferences and press releases of the Conference of Presidents of the Major American Jewish Organizations(CPMAJO) had urged their members to go all-out to fund and back candidates (mostly Democrats) who supported Israel's military solution' to Iran's nuclear enrichment program."
CPMAJO consists of 51 national organizations, including the Anti-Defamation League and the American Jewish Committee, several hundred local and regional Jewish federations, and the United Jewish Communities. Petras would doubtless include the Rabbinical Council of America.
"The Lobby," Petras says, also includes seven major "think tanks" that "crank out" position papers arguing "Israel is always right" and "the Arabs and Muslims are a threat to peace." Besides the AEI, these think tanks, Petras identifies as the New Citizenship Project, the Project for the New American Century, the Center for Security Policy, the National Institute for Public Policy, the Jewish Institute for National Security Affairs, the Washington Institute for Near Eastern Policy, and the Institute for Advanced Strategic and Political Studies.
In Congress, Petras cites the pro-Israeli stance of Rep. Rahm Emanuel (D.-Ill.) and Senator Charles Schumer, (D-N.Y.), campaign finance directors, and calls House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate majority leader Harry Reid (D.-Nev.) "100% Israel supporters."
Writing of Mearsheimer-Walt book, reviewer Leslie Gelb, president emeritus of the Council on Foreign Relations, says its authors contend "the lobby has made U.S. policy so lopsidedly pro-Israel that if fuels Muslim terrorism against the U.S., fosters the spread of nuclear weapons in Arab states and puts at added risk America's critical energy supplies from the Persian Gulf."
Gelb concedes "It's true" the Lobby "has made America's longstanding $3 billion annual aid program to Israel untouchable and indiscussible" but notes the U.S. is also giving $2 billion a year to Egypt. He also points out for several decades every occupant of the White House "has sold Saudi Arabia and other Arab states first-rate modern weapons, against the all-out opposition of Israel and the lobby."
And, he adds, each of these administrations since the 1967 war when Israel occupied the West Bank and Gaza Strip "has privately favored returning almost all of that territory to the Palestinians for the purposes of creating a separate Palestinian state.
Gelb says by asserting the dominance of the Israeli lobby, Mearsheimer-Walt "also minimize the lobbying influence of the Saudis and the oil companies" that, along with the Egyptians, have been significant voices in Washington arguing for a Palestinian state. As for war against Iran, Gelb says this has been urged as much by Saudi Arabia and the Lobby.
Gelb contends even if the U.S. quit backing Israel, American foreign policy would still be in disfavor because of its "deep ties with highly unpopular regimes in countries like Saudi Arabia and Egypt, not to mention the war in Iraq." The real play-callers behind the Iraq war, he said, are President Bush and Vice President Dick Cheney. "They hardly have a history of being in the pockets of the Jewish lobby (more like the oil lobby's), and they aren't remotely neoconservatives." Finally, Gelb writes, Bush and Cheney favor "getting Iran" and, in the last analysis, they "neither need nor heed lobbying."
Sherwood Ross is a Miami-based writer who covers political and military affairs. Reach him at sherwoodr1@yahoo.com
posted
Doddlebug, That article is pure garbage. The tone of the article was obviously anti American. I am amazed at how closely people who subscribe to this nonsense follow the nazi pattern of the 20's and 30's. What they want to say is that because America supports Israel it is only because of the efforsts of some sinister lobby. The facts are that we support Israel because it is in our interest to do so, just as it is in our interest to support Egypt.
Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
I'm very excited that this documentary has been officially selected in the International Film Festival of Cergy-Pontoise in Paris. Mabrook Nizar!
posted
Hammer, you really need to do some homework as to the history of what happened with the Palestinians. First of all, the Arabs helped Britian defeat the Ottomons in return for their promise that Arabs would have an independent state. At the same time Britian was promising the Zionists (it is a real word and real people, it is not made up, do some research that is what they called THEMSELVES) that they could have Jerusalem (and most of where they are today). For this they received funding from the Zionists to keep the war machine going, that was around WWI...now go ahead to WWII, some European Jews were heading down into Palestine and the influx started annoying the Arabs because they didn't see them as immigrants, they saw them as settlers. They were causing a lot of havoc already. Following WWII the huge influx of Jewish from countries in Europe (sometimes illegally) into Palestine could no longer be ignored. The Palestinians began pushing back, fearing the rumors they were hearing of settlements (smart people, that's exactly what happened).
King Abdullah of Jordan took a side with Britian because he envisioned a greater Syria, so he thought if he could keep sides with Britian he might be able to at least hold onto some land for the Arabs. Bad idea. Why? Because when the Arabs tried to fight back - they found it difficult, they were still weak from fighting the Ottomons off for the Brits. Meanwhile the British had rounded up the Arab leaders and shipped them off to a tiny little island off of the coast of India. The people fighting for the Palestinians were unorganized, on their own and basically fighting for land which had been in their families for generations.
When they attempted to fight back, Britian armed the Jews and backed them into staying, the Jordanian army COULD HAVE helped at this moment but instead they pulled back and this was a key moment in what happened because this allowed the Jews to get a strong hold in Jerusalem pushing Palestinians who had a right to their own land into refugee camps in Syria, Jordan, Egypt, etc. Most were told it would be a short while, a few days, a few weeks, a couple of months, etc. Whether they were tricked or lied to remains in history but what we do know is that they were killed, bullied, lied to and used. You will never FIND ONE SINGLE PALESTINIAN who is either directly from Palestine or who is a child or grandchild of a refugee who does not claim to be Palestinian because they still believe in going home someday.
Since this far back there have been endless fighting, endless killings, endless accusations and endless warmongering due to one key fact: these people moved into an area pushing the natives out without a care for what happened to them. The Jews actually believed they had a God-Given right to be there and the Palestinians could go elsewhere and die and live in squalor for all they cared. Before they came, there were Jews in Palestine, the Palestinians lived with them in peace for generations, no conflicts, no wars (other than the occasional tribal conflict which happened ordinarily in a neighborhood).
The mere fact that there are some who prefer to distort the history and claim they have what they deserve and should just take what they get and shut up is a slap in the face to all humanity. Some of them STILL to this day live in refugee camps, are treated like 2nd class citizens and ALL dream of going home one day to the place that was stolen from them. Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I know all that history smauckers. History is what I do for a living. Situations like that change over time and the Palestinians have lost. It does not matter wheter they think the land was stolen from them. It does not even matter if it WAS stolen from them. The fact is, they have lost it and lost it forever and now need to fall back on plan B.
-------------------- The spirit of Horemheb lives on within us all. Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
What is PLAN B ?? Plan A was to fight what is being stolen from you, what do you see as Plan B ? Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
posted
I would rather live in Egypt or Morocco or where ever as a full citizen than on what amounts to an Indian reservation in Palestine, buts thats just me. Egypt should work out a deal with Israel and annex Gaza. That will not happen for awhile but something like that will have to happen. I noticed in the news many Palestinians do not want to go back to Gaza. Or...they could become Jews.
Posts: 1023 | From: The spirit of Horemheb lives within us all | Registered: May 2007
| IP: Logged |
posted
So PLAN B is no plan, just throw their hands up and be done with it. Believe me, ask ANY Palestinian if they want to go back and they will say yes if they could feel secure. Jews? LOL - ok....
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
| IP: Logged |
UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
![[Roll Eyes]](rolleyes.gif)
![[Big Grin]](biggrin.gif)
and many American Jews want no part in living in Israel – because according to them they deem it as short term residency. It is hopeless and a testament to the failure of administration after administration in this regard. ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
![[Confused]](confused.gif)
Plan A was to fight what is being stolen from you, what do you see as Plan B ? 
Printer-friendly view of this topic