Angela Merkel, Germany's chancellor, has said that the country's attempt to create a multicultural society has "utterly failed", adding fuel to a debate over immigration and Islam which is polarising her conservative coalition.
Speaking to a meeting of young members of her Christian Democrats (CDU), Merkel said allowing people of different cultural backgrounds to live side by side without integrating had not worked in a country that is home to some four million Muslims.
"This [multicultural] approach has failed, utterly failed," Merkel a the meeting in Potsdam on Saturday.
The chancellor said immigrants needed to do more to integrate, including learning German.
Merkel has faced pressure from within her party to take a tougher line on immigrants who do not show a willingness to adapt to German society and her comments appeared intended to pacify her critics.
She said too little had been required of immigrants in the past and repeated her usual line that they should learn German in order to get by in school and have opportunities in the labour market.
Integration 'challenging'
Professor Hajo Funke, a social scientist from the Free University of Berlin, told Al Jazeera that he disagreed with Merkel's comments that multiculturalism had failed.
"We are for integration, we have a lot of success within the immigration and we have to do more to integrate by language and the everyday behaviour of people," he said.
"It is necessary for the chances of the minorities to learn German, to get a hold on jobs and the education system ... the government is doing a lot that all people can learn German.
"So it's a challenging for more integration, not saying we don't want integration ... we have to challenge our behaviour, our political behaviour, to do more than before, and this is true also for the immigrants."
The debate over foreigners in Germany has shifted since Thilo Sarrazin, a former central banker, published a book accusing Muslim immigrants of lowering the intelligence of German society.
Sarrazin was censured for his views and dismissed from the Bundesbank last month, but his book proved highly popular and polls showed a majority of Germans agreed with the thrust of his arguments.
'Dangerous' remarks
Earlier this month, Merkel held talks with Recep Tayyip Erdogan, the Turkish prime minister, in which the two leaders promised to do more to improve the often poor integration record of the estimated 2.5 million-strong Turkish community living in Germany.
Turkish immigrants and Germans reacted to Merkel's remarks on Sunday morning at a flea market in Kreuzberg, a predominantly Turkish neighbourhood of the capital Berlin.
Statistically the area has a large percentage of first and second generation immigrants of Turkish ancestry, and is characterised by low average incomes and high unemployment.
Gul encouraged the Turkish community living in Germany to better integrate into German society [EPA] "I think it is dangerous to say such things as a politician in public," Sven Stripp said.
"One is then on the same level with other politicians, for example the one [Sarrazin] who just recently released a book and received a lot of criticism for it."
Daniela Jonas said: "I think her statement is very black and white and does not reflect honestly on the lifestyle people are living here. I don't think it is good what she said."
Hakim, a Moroccan living in Berlin, said: "It does not surprise me that Merkel says such things, she is from the CDU, but we have already heard things like that from the SPD as well.
"It's a shame. It is not good for the atmosphere in Germany and it is not a helpful comment."
In an interview on Saturday, Abdullah Gul, Turkey's president, encouraged the Turkish community living in Germany to better integrate into German society.
In comments published in the Suedeutsche Zeitung, a German newspaper, Gul said: "When one doesn't speak the language of the country in which one lives that doesn't serve anyone, neither the person concerned, the country, nor the society.
"That is why I tell them at every opportunity that they should learn German, and speak it fluently and without an accent. That should start at nurseries."
Gul said that if Mesut Ozil, a German footballer of Turkish descent, "had asked me which side to play for, I would have encouraged him to play for Germany".
The president said Ozul, who scored one of the German goals in their October 8 defeat of Turkey 3-0 in a Euro 2012 group A qualifying match in Berlin, is "an example of very successful integration".
'Alien cultures'
Merkel has tried to accommodate both sides of the debate, talking tough on integration but also telling Germans that they must accept that mosques have become part of their landscape.
She said on Saturday that the education of unemployed Germans should take priority over recruiting workers from abroad, while noting Germany could not get by without skilled foreign workers.
In a weekend newspaper interview, Ursula von der Leyen, Merkel's labour minister, raised the possibility of lowering barriers to entry for some foreign workers in order to tackle the lack of skilled workers in Europe's largest economy.
"For a few years, more people have been leaving our country than entering it," she told the Frankfurter Allgemeine Sonntagszeitung.
"Wherever it is possible, we must lower the entry hurdles for those who bring the country forward."
The German Chamber of Industry and Commerce says the country lacks about 400,000 skilled workers.
However, Horst Seehofer, the chairman of the Christian Social Union, the CDU's sister party, has rejected any relaxation of immigration laws and said last week there was no room in Germany for more people from "alien cultures".
posted
We Need a real discussion here ,I can understand why immigrants can not be dissolved in the west ,but what I can not understand why native people when become Muslims suddenly become dangerous (West's view) and can't also be dissolved in the society .
posted
There have been various discussions about this issue on here - with lots of personal impressions and opinions. (For example in the thread about the killing of Marwa el-Sherbini)
As much as I care about this subject, I am not interested in exchanging my thoughts with people who already have preconceived or distorted notions about this issue and about Europeans / Westerners in general.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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posted
^Your opinion will be a great help to me as I am starting to apply for scholarships in USA ,Canada and Europe .
If the situation there as in mind I will not go and apply for a Japanese University instead .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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posted
The situation there is worse than "in mind" but it does not differ from Egypt or anywhere else in the world. The potential is always there to demonize a group of people for "national interest". It happened through out history and continue to happen to this day. For as long as you can be identified as "not one of them" the potential is there to scare the hell out of people and convince them that you're a danger to them. Pick whatever country you like as they are all the same.
Now do you notice the discrimination right there around you?
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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^Well In Egypt I do not see any discrimination except for small minority who are funded by some fvcking Arab and Israeli intelligence
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: We Need a real discussion here ,I can understand why immigrants can not be dissolved in the west ,but what I can not understand why native people when become Muslims suddenly become dangerous (West's view) and can't also be dissolved in the society .
Real discussion people ,real discussion!
Why Muslims ,why not Hindus ? Sikhs? ..etc? why ?
The same was done and is being done to Sikhs, Hindus, Christians, Native Indians, Nicaraguans, Libyans, Lebanese, Palestinians, Japanese, Chinese, communists......... In India, Maoists are the terrorists who must be eliminated. India declared its own war on terror and is systematically killing them.
Muslims are in the spotlight because it is convenient to some governments to convince their "stupid people" that Muslims pose a great danger and that Muslims and Islam are fundamentally violent and backwards. Muslims want to eliminate westerners and their way of living. That is the only way they can get support for their wars or economic oppression. It's nothing personal.
Posts: 1044 | Registered: Nov 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: ^Your opinion will be a great help to me as I am starting to apply for scholarships in USA ,Canada and Europe .
Why?
Everything you've ever written on here about Europeans, Americans, and "Westerners" in general was full of ignorance, hatred and prejudice. I don't recall you ever believing anyone who actually lived there when they told you that it's different than you imagine. So why would you be interested in hearing opinions now? And why would you be interested in moving there?
Maybe you should start by elaborating how you imagine the situation to be, and what exactly you think will be the problems you might be expecting.
Also, contrary to what many Egyptians believe, it's not the same everywhere in "the West". There are huge differences between various counrtries and even between different areas in the same country.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
now he wants to move to where all the woman are naked and there is sex in the streets, and he thinks they give scholarships to people who don't even understand what minority means?
or dissolved too by the looks of it.
immigrants can't be dissolved in the west because its illegal to throw acid over them, they have rights.
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:^I am not moving there ,just going to study .
OK, let me rephrase: Why would you want to spend an extended amount of time among people whom you regard as horrible, immoral, depraved etc. pp.? That doesn't make sense to me.
Btw., I believe the best thing to do would be to speak to Egyptians who have moved or studied abroad. I'd talk to as many as possible in order to get a wide range of opinions and experiences.
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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posted
Secret Cold War plan included mass detentions At the height of the Cold War, the Canadian government crafted a top-secret plan to detain thousands of citizens with Communist links in the event of a national security threat, according to a joint CBC/Radio-Canada investigation.
The secret contingency plan, called PROFUNC, allowed police to round up and indefinitely detain Canadians believed to be Communist sympathizers.
The CBC's The Fifth Estate and Radio-Canada's Enquête investigative programs have unearthed troubling details about PROFUNC, which stands for PROminent FUNCtionaries of the Communist Party.
The investigation has discovered that information gathered under PROFUNC's mandate may have been used during the 1970 October Crisis, when Canada invoked the War Measures Act and suspended civil liberties to end escalating violence sowed by the Front de Libération du Québec, known as the FLQ.
PROFUNC is believed to be one of the most draconian national security programs in Canada's peacetime history.
First devised in 1950 by RCMP Commissioner Stuart Taylor Wood, PROFUNC listed some 16,000 suspected Communists and 50,000 sympathizers who would have to be watched, and possibly interned, in a national security emergency.
Under the plan, targets on the list could be detained indefinitely, subject to severe discipline, and shot if they tried to escape detention.
The blacklist included prominent Canadian public figures — men and women, and their children — whose identities were kept hidden in sealed envelopes filed at Mountie detachments across the country. Files included personal details such as age, physical description, photos, vehicle information, and housing, even the location of doors to be used in potential escapes.
The files were regularly updated until the PROFUNC's demise in the early 1980s, prompted by administrative changes introduced by Robert Kaplan, Canada's solicitor general at the time.
October Crisis suspects not just FLQ sympathizers
CBC and Radio-Canada have learned that PROFUNC's blacklist may have been used to bolster the number of suspects rounded up during the October Crisis 40 years ago, many of whom had no connection to FLQ activities.
The October Crisis was triggered by a pair of political kidnappings orchestrated by two separate FLQ cells, British trade commissioner James Richard Cross, and, later, Quebec Labour Minister Pierre Laporte, who was eventually murdered.
Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau invoked the War Measures Act on Oct. 16, in a bold attempt to stamp out the FLQ and resolve the kidnappings. With civil liberties suspended, police and army troops fanned out on the streets of Ottawa and Montreal to restore order.
Retired Lt. Julien Giguère was head of Montreal police's anti-terrorism squad at the time.
"We had some names" of FLQ sympathizers, said Giguère in an exclusive interview with Radio-Canada's Enquête program. "The Sureté du Québec [SQ, provincial police] added some names."
There were at most 60 names on the initial police list after the War Measures Act was invoked, Giguère said.
CBC/Radio-Canada has learned that Quebec's provincial police, thought that list was too short, given the extreme measures implemented by Trudeau. So the RCMP stepped in, offering to add names to the list of roundup targets.
As many as 500 people ended up in arrest in the hours following the War Measures Act was invoked including many with no known links to the FLQ.
"They came into my library and they broke everything," said Daniel Waterlot, who managed a Communist bookstore called Livres et périodiques progressistes in Montreal's St-Henri district at the time of the October Crisis. "Me, I wasn't an FLQ, I was with the Communist Party. It's not the same thing."
Waterlot's thick RCMP file contains no references to any FLQ activity. But CBC/Radio-Canada has found evidence that Waterlot was on the PROFUNC arrest list.
quote:^I am not moving there ,just going to study .
OK, let me rephrase: Why would you want to spend an extended amount of time among people whom you regard as horrible, immoral, depraved etc. pp.? That doesn't make sense to me.
Btw., I believe the best thing to do would be to speak to Egyptians who have moved or studied abroad. I'd talk to as many as possible in order to get a wide range of opinions and experiences.
Hi Dalia wake up I do not see them horrible .....etc.
I see politicians and decision makers horrible .
You have to understand this :When we say the WEST we mean the governments and politicians .
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:^I am not moving there ,just going to study .
OK, let me rephrase: Why would you want to spend an extended amount of time among people whom you regard as horrible, immoral, depraved etc. pp.? That doesn't make sense to me.
Btw., I believe the best thing to do would be to speak to Egyptians who have moved or studied abroad. I'd talk to as many as possible in order to get a wide range of opinions and experiences.
Hi Dalia wake up I do not see them horrible .....etc.
I see politicians and decision makers horrible .
You have to understand this :When we say the WEST we mean the governments and politicians .
I am shocked that you want to study in the USA. All you do is degrade us. Why would you think that you can possible learn anything of value in one of our universities?
Word of advice, you will be checked thoroughly before you will be allowed to enter. Best watch what you say online. Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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posted
^It is strange that you think I degrade you.
I do not ,I do that towards your coward government and those sadist soldiers .
The same feeling I feel towards my government and those stupid snipers who shoot Africans at the borders
Posts: 2417 | From: Cairo | Registered: Jun 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Rahala: ^Well In Egypt I do not see any discrimination except for small minority who are funded by some fvcking Arab and Israeli intelligence
posted
Angela Merkel made this statement out of own interest. Like in the whole of Europe, there is a large anti-moslim politic movement,and they get a lot of votes. So, the middle and the left wing are taking over that attitude; because of the votes. Nothing more and nothing less.
And about discrimination: as an European woman I get discriminated in countries like Egypt.Not by everyone, but by some, mainly stupid males. Egyptian men get discriminated in Europe. Not by everyone, mainly by stupid males. Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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A leading German politician recently suggested that Germany close its borders to people from other cultures -- a strangely claustrophobic notion. Politicians should take action rather than dumbing down the political debate.
Not all discussions make us smarter. Some, in fact, make us dumber. No one can honestly believe it will take us even a step further toward integrating the foreigners who live in Germany if we simply close our borders to other cultures, as Christian Social Union (CSU) leader Horst Seehofer recently suggested. The explanation Seehofer then tacked on -- that he only wants to keep out skilled workers from other countries -- produces head scratching at best. Is the head of the CSU, Bavarian sister party to Angela Merkel's center-right Christian Democratic Union (CDU), really saying that in the future we should turn away skilled workers and accept only unskilled ones?
The suggestions from the other side of the political spectrum, unfortunately, aren't any better. Sigmar Gabriel, head of the center-left Social Democratic Party (SPD), proposes kicking out any foreigners who don't behave properly -- a disciplinary measure that would fail in practice as soon as it reached court. Not even Thilo Sarrazin, the former German central banker whose polemical book on the alleged shortcomings of the country's Turkish population generated such controversy in late summer, has called for such a measure. Gabriel, in fact, is seeking to throw Sarrazin out of the SPD.
Eight weeks have passed since Sarrazin released his book on the decline of German society and each new development only turns the debate more vapid. The whole thing very nearly leaves the impression that bandwagon jumpers within the various parties have decided simply to keep spouting off, in the hope that voters will reward the fact that they at least addressed the subject.
A Claustrophobic Notion
But there's no reason to make ourselves look like less than we are. This country is not as discontented, narrow-minded and fearful as listening to people like Seehofer might make it seem. Friendly association with people from other countries is a given in Germany. It wasn't long ago that Germans saw themselves represented by a national football team whose best players often have foreign backgrounds. Every soccer fan knows the national team doesn't reflect the reality of life in city ghettos, but it's still an ideal worth emulating.
The idea that a country is a better place if its people keep to themselves as much as possible is a strangely claustrophobic notion -- even in the happiest of families, it's nice to see a new face now and then. Influx from outside invigorates a society and serves as an excellent tonic against the stagnation that tends to plague sedentary cultures.
It would be foolish to deny that Germany has benefited from immigration. Neighborly relationships with foreigners have raised our level of tolerance, making us more cosmopolitan and open to other ways of life. We could even argue that this prepared the country early on for globalization. The fact that the burden of work involved in integration is far from equally distributed is a separate matter. The people who don't want to talk about integration problems are usually the ones who live in neighborhoods where the only Turk around is the greengrocer on the corner.
Too Late for Turkish Teenagers
Germany, in fact, is one of the world's most foreigner-friendly countries. We have chosen to generously disregard whether a person was born here or not when it comes to allocating social services. Even those immigrants who are merely "tolerated" enjoy rights not granted in other countries until a person has obtained citizenship or established a long work history.
The error lies in assuming that this generosity will be rewarded with a particularly high degree of ambition. People who dare to try their luck in a foreign country are by their natures especially resourceful and driven. Turning such people into beggars is no easy feat -- yet we've managed to do precisely that. All people respond to the incentives a society provides them. To then turn around and accuse them of doing so is naive.
It's too late for the 15-year-old Turkish teenagers now dropping out of school. For the majority of them, the job market can't offer vocational training opportunities that can compete in appeal with drawing welfare benefits and not needing to work. The crucial generation is the one now in preschool. And the central question is whether we'll manage to reach them in time to equip them with the tools they need to live a self-determined and productive life.
It would be an enormous step in the right direction if those responsible would turn their attention to the tasks clearly at hand. And unlike with immigrant deportation fantasies, this approach doesn't even require changing the constitution.
posted
There is a reaction against Muslims in the west, no doubt. One never knows what the future holds in the world of politics. A hard right turn in european politics has happened in the past and it could happen again. I would not want to be a Muslim in Europe if that happened.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Angela Merkel made this statement out of own interest. Like in the whole of Europe, there is a large anti-moslim politic movement,and they get a lot of votes. So, the middle and the left wing are taking over that attitude; because of the votes. Nothing more and nothing less.
And about discrimination: as an European woman I get discriminated in countries like Egypt.Not by everyone, but by some, mainly stupid males. Egyptian men get discriminated in Europe. Not by everyone, mainly by stupid males.
Are you implying that stupid males are the problem with the world?... Posts: 770 | From: www.cafepress.com/tahrir_square | Registered: Jul 2010
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Contrary to German Chancellor Angela Merkel's assertion that "multiculturalism is dead," a state that is based on fundamental democratic values like freedom of worship demonstrates its true strength not in rejecting, but in affirming its cultural diversity.
German Chancellor Angela Merkel recently declared that multiculturalism is "dead".
This statement has no basis in reality, because the word "multiculturalism" means nothing more than the functioning coexistence of various cultures within a community, which means that multiculturalism is in fact a universal, timeless concept. And in a globalised world, this concept is more valid than ever before as there is no longer such a thing as an ethnically homogeneous society or nation.
Her comment was primarily meant as a concession to the conservative grassroots of her own party. What's more, anti-Islam voices and hostility toward immigration are increasing amongst the voting public as well. In his book, Germany is Doing Away with Itself, published this summer, ex-politician and Deutsche Bank board member Thilo Sarrazin opened the floodgates for public debate on multiculturalism when he claimed that the high rate of immigration into Germany was leading to a dangerous civilisational decline, in the process spoiling the high-quality German gene pool.
It is impossible to deny that uncontrolled immigration has created integration problems in Europe in the past. Germany, and Europe in general, has alarming integration problems. Large parts of the migrant community, for instance, cut themselves off from mainstream society, feeling excluded in many cases due to a very poor command of the German language. Because of this virulent language problem, teachers at some schools cannot run regular classes anymore because students do not understand what is being communicated.
And there are many young migrant men living in Germany who, feeling alienated, cut themselves off from the rest of society and become more open to extremist thinking, which perhaps explains a 2006 failed train bombing plot involved two Lebanese youth who had been living in Germany for several years. Though, needless to say, only a minute number of these migrant men are ready to carry out terrorist acts.
This debate is shameful, seeing as Germany owes its rise as one of the world's most affluent nations not least of all to the hard-working Turkish immigrants that were lured here beginning in the 1960s. Without them, Germany would not be the rich country it is today. Policymakers in Berlin are aware of these issues, and no one is prepared to claim today that coexistence in a pluralistic society is possible without basic values that apply to one and all.
The political establishment knows that the integration problems we are facing today can be attributed mainly to a socio-political problem not a genetic or religious one. The absurd theses put forward by Sarrazin can be refuted swiftly just by taking a quick glance over the Atlantic: in the United States, immigrant Muslims (two thirds of Muslim Americans are foreign-born) are more fully integrated and economically more successful than immigrants of other backgrounds there, according to a 2007 Pew Survey, and they also enjoy a higher level of education.
Another factor that perhaps led to Merkel’s statement is that the economic crisis in Germany, as in Europe at large, has given rise to a spreading climate of uncertainty. In uncertain times, people get nervous – and nervous people tend to behave more aggressively.
The basic democratic order, however, is not rooted in economic prosperity but rather in ideas. Ideas like equal rights and freedom of religions. And, under Merkel, the German government has done a great deal to promote these values. During the last legislature period, for example, Minister of the Interior Wolfgang Schäuble assertively stated that Islam is part of Germany. And new German President Christian Wulff reinforced this message in his 3 October speech on the Day of German Unity, commemorating the anniversary of the 1990 German reunification.
However, the criticism Wulff subsequently reaped from his party and the general population was substantial, exposing a prevailing perception that he was undermining Western cultural values.
The opposite is actually the case. With this message, Wulff underscored that Christians living in Turkey, like Muslims living in Germany, have the right to equal treatment. And those who claim that the Western world must stand by its Christian roots and categorically deny Islam any recognition, are in reality working toward the abolishment of democracy and religious freedom.
So, no, multiculturalism is not dead. Because a state that is based on fundamental democratic values, like freedom of worship, demonstrates its true strength not in rejecting, but in affirming its cultural diversity.
That has always been the case, and always will be.
posted
actually multicultural is dead, it has failed and it has nothing to do with democratic values. When someone comes to the united states the sssumptive is that they will join the dominant culture as has bee the case for centuries.
Posts: 2036 | From: Texas | Registered: Sep 2009
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