posted
GTA's secret world of polygamy May 24, 2008 04:30 AM Noor Javed Staff Reporter
As Toronto mother describes her ordeal, imam admits he has `blessed' over 30 unions
Safa Rigby holds her youngest of five children in their home, May 21, 2008. Rigby had it all. Four great kids. A faithful husband. Then she found out about his other wives.
There were no pleasantries, there was no small talk. Safa Rigby had expected to hear her husband's voice when the phone rang one morning. Instead, the caller didn't even bother to say hello.
"You think you know your husband. You don't know him at all," said the man, a friend of her husband's. "His car is parked outside my house right now. He is with my ex-wife. They just got married last week," the man said.
It took a minute for the news to sink in. Then she called her husband of 14 years, demanding to know if what she had just been told was true – that while she spent a year in Egypt raising their four children in a more Islamic environment, he had used it as an opportunity to marry not just one, but two other women in Toronto.
"Yes, I'm married," he said, quashing all her dreams of their future together.
He told her he was married in a small ceremony 20 days earlier, officiated by Aly Hindy, a well-known Toronto imam, at his Scarborough mosque.
"I cried for six days straight. Lost my appetite, ignored the kids, even had to start taking antidepressants," said Rigby, 35. "What I couldn't understand was how such a thing could happen in Toronto, my hometown, where polygamy is supposed to be illegal."
It was easy. He simply found an imam willing to break a Canadian law, in exchange for upholding an Islamic one.
"Polygamy is happening in Toronto; it's not common, but it's happening," said Hindy, imam at Salahuddin Islamic Centre.
Hindy, hardly a stranger to controversy, is well known for his friendship with the family of Omar Khadr, the young Canadian detainee at Guantanamo Bay, and his outspoken views on the implementation of Islamic law. In the past five years, Hindy said he has officiated or "blessed" more than 30 polygamous marriages; the most recent was two months ago. Even some imams in the GTA have second wives, he added.
"This is in our religion and nobody can force us to do anything against our religion," he said. "If the laws of the country conflict with Islamic law, if one goes against the other, then I am going to follow Islamic law, simple as that."
Those who condone the practice rarely let their views be known, and those who practise it themselves tend to do so in secret, making it difficult to record how many such marriages have taken place in the GTA. Equally hard to determine is how many polygamous families have immigrated to the country, despite a 2005 report commissioned by the federal Status of Women that tried to find out the extent of polygamy and its implications.
But conducting such unions in clear violation of Canadian law is wrong, according to Syed Mumtaz Ali, president of the Canadian Society of Muslims, who speaks frequently on polygamy issues.
"Muslims should not enter into polygamy while they are living in Canada, because the local Canadian law prevails. It overrules the Islamic law if there is a conflict between the two," he said.
Under the Criminal Code, polygamy was deemed a crime in 1892. Those who enter into reside in, or officiate a polygamous union can be charged with a criminal offence and face up to five years in prison.
But the last time polygamy was prosecuted in Canada was more than 60 years ago. Fundamentalist Mormons in Bountiful, in southeastern British Columbia, have managed to get away with openly practising polygamy, believed to be an integral and necessary part of their faith, since the 1940s with little legal recourse.
A raid six weeks ago on a Texas polygamist compound, in which 440 children were seized by child-protection officials, also drew attention to the practice of polygamy and a sect's religious beliefs. An appeals court, however, ruled this week that the children, members of the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, be released.
Islamic laws on polygamy, while based on religious texts, differ from the Mormon example. While the Qur'an permits polygamy, it is not a requirement of the faith – and for those who wish to practise, there are strict conditions: "If you deem it best for the orphans, you may marry their mothers – you may marry two, three, or four. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have."
"The purpose of polygamy was to protect women," said Shahina Siddiqui, a social worker with the Islamic Social Services Association, who has worked on a number of polygamy cases. "The way it is being done here, it is not just. Second and third wives have no social support, no legal protection, no recourse if things go wrong; that in itself negates the entire premise of the Islamic law. It can't do what it was meant to do." Polygamy can work, Siddiqui stresses, if the society is set up for it, if it's open to it, and if adults consent to it.
Provincial laws do provide some protection for women in polygamous marriages. According to the Ontario Family Act, women who came to Canada with valid polygamous marriage documents can claim spousal support and welfare benefits. While the law has yet to be challenged, it is believed that those married here could also likely do the same on the basis of being vulnerable persons.
"It was about women and their needs back then, but what it is today is about a man wanting to have more women," said Rigby, who recently moved back to Canada with her children, and has just started the process of separating from her husband, a businessman. "This is their `halal' form of having an affair."
Rigby said her husband told her his reasoning for marrying the second wife was to "help" her out of a difficult financial situation. Other polygamists cite marrying divorced women as a means to provide them support or be able to have children if their wives are unable to conceive. In some cases, a wife who is ill will herself begin the process of looking for a spouse for her husband, said Hindy.
"I don't encourage people to do it, unless they have reason for it. Life ends up being very complicated. You have to jump from one house to another all the time," he said.
That's why Hindy advises men to keep the second marriage a secret as long as they can, even from the first wife. There have been instances where he has gone with the men to their homes to share the news with the first wives, in an attempt to help lessen the blow.
Hindy had advised Rigby's husband to stay quiet. When Rigby emailed Hindy, soon after discovering he had conducted the marriage, he offered little support.
"You have to stand beside him in these difficult times. You should stop causing problems to him. You will not get anything by divorce except destroying your life," she said he told her.
At that moment Rigby realized how lonely her path would be.
Since the marriages are shrouded in secrecy, women are embarrassed to speak about their situations, have few supports in place, and are often forced to deal with it alone.
"You are ashamed. You feel like you are the reason behind it. I stopped socializing, interacting. I became withdrawn. People's first impression is that if a man marries again, it's because of the failings of the first wife," Rigby said. "I spent a year trying to fix the problem, which I didn't even create."
It took Rigby almost two years to leave the marriage, as she struggled to figure out how she would manage as a single mother, now with five children, ages 1 to 14.
While Rigby eventually left, many women feel they don't have the strength to do the same. A 28-year-old Mississauga mother of two said she decided to stay in her marriage, more for her kids than for herself, even after she discovered her husband had married another woman.
During the year he had two wives, he would alternate nights between the two. "It was a horrible thought. To think of your husband with another woman," she said. But she stayed on, hopeful that he would eventually leave his new wife. "I lost trust. I lost all respect. At that point I didn't love him. I knew he was with her. He was sleeping with her. He was doing everything with her," said the woman, who asked that her name not be used. Eventually, he left his second wife.
While the Muslim factor may be a minor one in the larger debate around polygamy, which for years has focused on Bountiful, B.C., there is consensus on both sides that the practice will soon be forced to face a constitutional challenge.
Muslims have thought that if such a challenge on the basis of religion is launched, they would also benefit. But Nik Bala, a family law professor at Queen's University, believes the case for Muslims is much weaker than that of the Mormons.
"In Bountiful, the argument of freedom of religion applies, since polygamy is a requirement necessary to get to heaven. Islam permits polygamy, but doesn't require it to be a practising Muslim," said Bala. "The freedom of religion argument doesn't hold up as strongly."
But on both sides of the debate, the protection of women and children is considered paramount.
In Rigby's eyes, whether polygamy is illegal or legal is irrelevant. "If it is happening and it is here, then there should be some kind of support system set up to protect us," she said, suggesting marriage workshops or support groups for women.
For now, Rigby is writing a blog on her two years in a polygamous marriage. "No one wants to talk about it, but at a certain point, we're going to have to start having that conversation."
So if there's a conflict, he's going with Islamic law.....
He wants to follow his religious customs. Fine, do it in an Islamic country. If you're in Canada and absolutely need to practice polygamy, leave to where it IS legal!
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quote: "This is their `halal' form of having an affair."
That's the truth. I have ZERO respect for the men who do this, behind their current wives' backs. They are scum.
quote: Other polygamists cite marrying divorced women as a means to provide them support or be able to have children if their wives are unable to conceive. In some cases, a wife who is ill will herself begin the process of looking for a spouse for her husband, said Hindy.
Except what this doesn't bother to tell you is that MOST who marry more than one, go back to their homeland to marry a very young virgin instead of taking a divorced woman or convert. These men use Sunna in one hand but not in the other. There are many Muslim converts who are in need to find a Muslim man in the West but it is very difficult as these men often go to their home countires (or parents' home countries) to get wives and bring them over...I have never seen ONE SINGLE incident of them marrying a divorced/widowed convert nor heard of it. NEVER.
quote: It took Rigby almost two years to leave the marriage, as she struggled to figure out how she would manage as a single mother, now with five children, ages 1 to 14.
While Rigby eventually left, many women feel they don't have the strength to do the same. A 28-year-old Mississauga mother of two said she decided to stay in her marriage, more for her kids than for herself, even after she discovered her husband had married another woman.
I think this is really the reason why so many men don't tell their current wives. IF the women are able to divorce them, the men would have to pay, it's always about money and sex with these sorts of men, IMO.
Rigby is very brave to tell her story...I wish her luck.
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posted
Last week the Toronto Star told the story of Safa Rigby, a 35-year-old mother of five children who recently learned her husband of 14 years had two other wives. Ms. Rigby’s life is in tatters. She followed her husband’s advice that she leave Toronto and live in Egypt for a year on the grounds that it would be better for their children to spend more time in a Muslim country. Now she knows it was a ruse. He used her time there to marry two other women.
Ms. Rigby does not support polygamy, which has been illegal in Canada for more than a century. But Toronto Imam Aly Hindy, who runs the Toronto Salahuddin Islamic Centre, does. He married Ms. Rigby’s husband knowing he already had a wife and counselled him to keep the marriage secret from Ms. Rigby for as long as possible. Hindy has by his own admission performed 30 ceremonies in which men were married who already had wives. When Ms. Rigby confronted Hindy his response was reportedly cold and unsympathetic: “You will have to stand beside him in these difficult times,” Hindy told her. “You should stop causing problems to (sic) him. You will not get anything by divorce except destroying your life” he went on to say.
For Hindy this is not about Ms. Rigby or her husband’s desire to marry another woman — but making a broader political point.
Hindy is using polygamy as a proxy for his fundamentalist version of Islam, something he wants to see legitimized in Canadian society as a whole. It is part of an attempt at empire building, a bid that if successful will enhance his influence within the Muslim and demonstrate that Ontario and Canada is too ignorant and too afraid of Islam to uphold its own laws. He has admitted as much, challenging Ontario’s government to dare stop him. “If the laws of the country conflict with Islamic law, if one goes against the other, then I am going to follow Islamic law, simple as that,” he told the Star. Interviewed after the Star story appeared on the John Oakley Show on AM 640Toronto, Hindy was not apologetic and argued that freedom of religion in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumped prohibitions against polygamous marriages.
When he and another Imam from Toronto, Steve Rockwell, were challenged on the appropriateness of polygamy by a Muslim caller to the Oakley Show, the caller was immediately attacked and his identity as a true Muslim questioned because he did not follow Hindy’s view that polygamy is a foundational pillar of Islam that grows out of Sharia Law. This speaks to a troubling absolutist interpretation of Islamic law, which runs against the reality that Sharia law is much more flexible that Hindy allows for, a fact well documented by Anver Emon, a specialist in Islamic law at the University of Toronto. Moreover, as noted in the Star article on Ms. Rigby, there is grave doubt that the Charter protects Islamic polygamy, as Hindy believes. Nik Bala, who teaches family law at Queen’s University, points out that “Islam permits polygamy, but doesn’t require it to be a practising Muslim.” This is key, and may mean Hindy’s attempt to find shelter behind the Charter will fail. Moreover, the impact polygamy has on women's equality and children could also sway the courts to uphold Canada's ban on polygamy.
But there is little chance at the moment that this will become a Charter issue down the road. Dalton McGuinty’s government has responded to the revelations about polygamy in the Muslim community by denying its existence. On Wednesday Liberal MPP Ted McMeekin responded to a question on the issue in the Legislative Assembly of Ontario saying:
“Polygamy is a serious crime in Ontario . It’s not something that’s tolerated. As you know, the best advice I can give the honourable member opposite is that if she has any evidence that someone is engaging in multiple marriages, she should report it, because our Registrar General and our official reporting mechanisms have no evidence that that’s happening. As you know, Mr. Speaker, marriage is a contract. A contract require a licence, and once a marriage occurs, it has to be registered. There are no multiple marriages being registered in the province of Ontario.”
Mr. McMeekin’s response is a shameful twisting of the law. The criminal code is clear. Section 293. (1) reads: “Every one who (a) practises or enters into or in any manner agrees or consents to practise or enter into (i) any form of polygamy, or (ii) any kind of conjugal union with more than one person at the same time, whether or not it is by law recognized as a binding form of marriage, or (b) celebrates, assists or is a party to a rite, ceremony, contract or consent that purports to sanction a relationship mentioned in subparagraph (a)(i) or (ii), is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding five years.”
There is no provision in the law, contrary to Mr. McMeekin’s assertion in the Ontario Legislature, that a polygamous marriage has to be registered before the government can act. The opposite is in fact true.
By turning a blind eye to polygamy, Premier McGuinty is giving licence to Sharia by stealth.
In 2005 Ontario’s premier rightly ruled out Sharia family courts, conceding that Muslim women may well fair poorly if such a system was allowed to be established. The same concern exists today, yet Ontario’s Liberals sit on their hands.
Muslim women like Ms. Rigby are being victimized as are her children. Imam Hindy has told her to put up with her husband’s desire for other wives. She has properly said no and has now obtained a divorce. When will Premier McGuinty’s government say no and enforce the law it is bound to uphold?
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What is always striking about stories like this is the eagerness with which proponents of Sharia-approved practices regarded as unacceptable in the West attempt to invoke Western human rights laws to defend their behavior, while in countries enforcing Sharia law, Western standards of human rights are disregarded out of hand, or even deemed licentious.
The demands boil down to this: In the name of Western human rights, let us implement practices from Sharia law that are wholly incompatible with Western human rights. And the case cited in the editorial above demonstrates that Islamic polygamy results in the same oppression and deceit in North America as anywhere else.
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-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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It makes me sick to see how people can cheat themselves and others into believing that making something (i.e. having an affair) legal, will make it morally right. And it sickens me even more that countless clerics are supporting and encouraging this warped theory.
I am so tired of the ridiculous argument that polygamy is supposedly better than having an affair because at least "the woman has a legal status and her children are being taken care of". This is comparing apples with pears since the intention behind allowing polygamy in certain cases was never to provide men with an outlet for sexual desires they can't control. Besides, a relationship is about more than just "man pays bills and woman gives sex, service and affection" -- it's about emotional closeness, communication, sharing and many other things. Those who favour the above mentioned argument seem to completely ignore those issues. As long as sex happens under the seal of a marriage and a man has to pay for a woman, everything seems to be ok for them. What an abysmal view of relationships and human nature! And whatever happened to husband and wife being "a garment for each other", as the Qur'an states? That suggests care, affection, love and respect, imo. It takes a very twisted way of thinking to assume a man who takes a second wife because he is bored of his first one or feels the need to have more variety / excitement in his sexual life is acting according to this principle. And personally I believe a woman is better off being a single mother than being a second or third wife to someone. Many countries have laws that a man who fathers a child has to pay alimony, so all the talk about poor husband-less women with *bastard children* who will end up in the street because the man is not obliged to marry his mistress is nothing but extremely stupid and short-sighted propaganda.
Fact is, polygamy has been proven to cause more harm than benefit, and in the overwhelming majority of cases it is being abused. So imo it's high time Islamic scholars start realizing it has no place in today's world and taking a stance against it instead of claiming its supposed benefits.
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I am about to talk about something that was discussed many times. It might be the most controversial topic in our Islamic and Arab worlds. I will do my best to be as objective as I possibly can because this issue in particular hits on my nerves. Polygamy has always perplexed me in its core concept; it always baffled me how a man can take more than one wife and be as sane and stable as any other normal person!
Putting all the religious arguments aside, because I am sure that this is the first thing that men will say; God has given us the right to marry not two, not three but four wives at the same time. I am not going to get into the religious aspect because men who practice this right are not even qualified to practice it from the beginning. It is true that God has privileged the Muslim man with this, but it was not without conditions and prerequisites that a minority of men meets.
What I am talking about here is the human aspect and consequences of such act. I have witnessed some cases of polygamy first hand and more often than not; men do it for their own pleasure and whims, forgetting about the conditions that God has outlined for them in order to practice this right.
The most common scenario is when a man goes through a middle age crisis that turns into a lifetime agony for his first wife and kids and probably for him as well. He marries his first wife and together they start a family; she helps him fulfill his dreams and move up the ladder of success. Her help to him varies from taking care of the household, the kids, helping out from her own career, his personal needs; mental and physical. When he finally becomes the dream; he looks for something to give him back some of his lost youth; and all of a sudden; his wife is no longer suitable for him; he needs a younger, more beautiful and more sophisticated woman who measures up.
The poor wife is in the dark. Yes, she might feel that there is something wrong and she might investigate what is going on with her husband, but what can she do? If she confronts him; she will be making is a reality too soon, so in the hope for this crisis to pass; she keeps quiet until she is surprised with the fact that she has to share the man of her life with another woman, and her kids have to share their father with another family.
In most cases; the woman prefers to accept this humiliation to her femininity for the sake of her children; because she does not want them to lose their mother as they have lost their father. In fear of her husband never coming back to her and her kids, she accepts his presence and does her best to make him feel comfortable. He has forced her into a competition for his love and affection, and she has to pull all her womanly charming tricks to win him over. She has become one of the women in his harem after she had been the only one. Not only she has to compete for his love, but she has to compete with a younger, more beautiful and more sophisticated woman who has become his new love bringing with her all the excitement that comes with anything new.
The minute he decided to marry someone else; he stopped treating his wife as a human; he considers her as property challenging her to even object because if she does; she is risking depriving her kids of their father and might get herself divorced taking the shame and disgrace of that to her own family and maybe losing her kids in the process.
Why does she have to be the one to compromise and sacrifice? Isn't he a father and has his kids' best interest in mind? What makes his personal needs more important than hers or her kids'? What makes OK for him to insult her like this and get away with it? It is his selfish nature that drives him to become a cruel person and forget about the woman who shared his life, only to satisfy his manly ego and fall for a woman who does not care whose lives to wreck in her search for her own happiness.
The religious argument here is unacceptable because God is just, God is fair and no way will He accept that the man does this to his wife and family in the name of His teachings; justice and fairness are the most important conditions for the man to be qualified for polygamy.
What a woman is to do when she is put in this situation? Should she accept her husband's selfishness and stay with him? Should she refuse and leave him risking losing her kids? Who said it is fair that she goes through this while he goes on a honeymoon renewing his youth and love? Who said that she is less human than him to accept sharing him? Who said she does not have needs exactly like his? Why are his needs more important than hers?
It is really sad that some women reach a state where they prefer that their men get themselves thousands of mistresses than a second marriage. I can't blame them for wishing so and I understand why they would, but do men get it? Do they comprehend the amount of humiliation they force their wives and families to undergo? Does he feel compassion towards them or he does not even care as long as he satisfies his desires?
I am really sad for all the women who have to go through this and I call for fellow women to think twice before wrecking a home and taking a man from his wife and family. Chances are: he did it to her; he will do it to you!
“One woman is not enough.” This hymn to polygamy does not come from a man but from a woman, Hayam Dorbek, who has been leading a pro-polygamy campaign in order to “help wives retain some freedom.” A journalist in the capital city of Cairo and a mother of two, Dorbek explains that working women find it hard to manage a career while raising children and catering to their husband’s needs, so why not let him take a second wife? Dorbek’s voice made her a household name but scandalized Egypt’s numerous women’s associations that have been fighting against the practice.
Polygamy is legal in Egypt where the main source of legislation is the Islamic Shariah. According to Shariah, a man is permitted to have up to four wives. An Egyptian husband who wishes to marry a second spouse need not get the permission of his first wife. In 1979, the wife of former President Sadate obtained that a law be passed which allows a woman to petition for the dissolution of her marriage in cases where the husband takes another wife, but it was cancelled due to religious pressures. First wives now have to prove they have suffered a prejudice to get divorced. Even though men are legally supposed to inform their wives that they plan to take another bride, many husbands are rumored to bribe public officers to make sure their first wife never learns the truth.
Indeed, it is not easy for a man to tell his wife that he plans to become a new “Hag Metwalli.” What has become a generic name for a polygamist, “Hag Metwalli” used to be the title of a series broadcast by the Egyptian state-run television a few years ago. It told the story of Metwalli, a successful businessman and happy husband of four wives, all of whom were delighted to share him. This glamorous representation of polygamy raised the anger of feminist associations. Ironically, the series was interspersed with commercial breaks in which the government-run National Council for Women (NCW) promoted gender equality. “The Council obtained that at the end of the series, the hero finally declared that one woman was largely enough,” a professor at the American University of Cairo points out, “but most viewers remember only the good time he had with his four brides.”
But what is on the screen does not reflect the reality of society, where polygamy remains the exception. Due to joblessness and poverty, most Egyptians get married only in their thirties as they can’t afford to buy the flat required to find a bride. As usual in Egypt, obtaining reliable statistics remains a challenge but it is generally agreed that less than 3 % of Egyptian men actually took more than one wife. Many young Egyptians, anxious to find their love match, don’t take polygamy too seriously. “It is reserved to the ultra-rich or to the uneducated people,” observes one young man.
But for Hosni, a middle-aged shopkeeper of Cairo, the dream has become reality. He shares the same five-room flat with his two wives. Born in the rural province of Saidi, he recalls his father having had seventeen wives. “He would have four at the same time, as it is the legal limit, but he would divorce some from time to time if they did not get along well or if they were not able to have a child,” Hosni fondly reminisces, though claiming he disapproves of such a great number of wives. “I took a second wife because my first spouse could not bear me children, since it is the duty of any Muslim man to have children,” he explains, before admitting that his first wife finally bore him daughters later on. “I would not mind having as much as four wives,” he admits, “but I simply cannot afford it as I am not rich enough.”
Though both of Hosni’s spouses live in the same flat, he claims they don’t fight. “If they did, I would hit the one who caused the dispute to calm her,” he smiles. However, Hosni speaks fondly of his children, and is especially proud of his daughter. “She wears the Niqab to hide her face because she is very beautiful but she is educated and she does work,” he stresses. Though he adores her, he would not mind her marrying a man who already has another wife, as “it is permitted by Islam, so why should I object to it?”
Famous Egyptian feminist Nawaal Saadawi* is less enthusiastic. “Can you imagine that my husband could lawfully come tomorrow in my living-room and announce to me he has married another wife?” she smiles. As a psychiatrist, she denounces the psychological suffering of women, who are “haunted by the ghost of a second wife.” Hind is one of these women. Even though her husband has never expressed the wish to take another spouse, she is tortured by fear. “ He told me once that having more than one wife is nothing extraordinary and that I should not resent it as God allows it. I feel guilty for not being able to accept something that is permitted by Islam. But I cry each time I think about it,” she admits. Whereas Hoda, a highly educated young Egyptian in her late twenties, sees polygamy as an opportunity. “All the men I find interesting are no longer single and I had better be the second wife of a great man than no one’s,” she confesses, adding that “a husband who has already a wife will be more likely to let me be independent.” She adds that it is not so uncommon for rich Westerners to support both a wife and a mistress at the same time, and that she does not want to end up an old maid.
Like Hoda, most Egyptian supporters of polygamy describe the practice as a way of saving single women from their fate in a society where a woman’s goal should be to become a mother. Some months ago, after it was rumored that the government-run National Council of Women planned to support a law limiting polygamy, several Imams publicly advised all Egyptians to take a second wife in order to reduce the number of single women and prevent moral disruptions.
* She was interviewed in the previous edition of Voices Unabridged
quote: Like Hoda, most Egyptian supporters of polygamy describe the practice as a way of saving single women from their fate in a society where a woman’s goal should be to become a mother.
I find this sad. Not the part about becoming a mother, as this can be one of the most important jobs a woman ever has (imo) but polygamy as a practice to 'save single women from their fate' of what? Of not getting married? You would have to argue that there aren't enough men to go around. Or we could argue that there aren't enough men in Egypt (for example) able to financially care for a woman as his wife and their children. Since the men marrying more than one usually have a higher income - does that mean he is morally obligated to take another wife because he is 'able to' or else there will be single women wandering Egypt in their fate of never finding ' a man' ?
The quran says that the man who takes more than one wife should be fair. He should be equal to her. Then the next line is that it is almost impossible to do this. If he smiles at one, he must smile at the other, if he kisses one he must kiss the other, if he gives a compliment to one he must give a compliment to the other, and so on and so fourth. I agree with the article above, most of the men (it would seem) taking more than one wife aren't entering into it in the right way, otherwise why are there so many disgruntled first (or 2nd) wives? Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote: He told me once that having more than one wife is nothing extraordinary and that I should not resent it as God allows it. I feel guilty for not being able to accept something that is permitted by Islam.
I know many women feel this way, and I think it's very sad and sickening that they buy into this sort of emotional blackmail.
quote: “All the men I find interesting are no longer single and I had better be the second wife of a great man than no one’s,”
This women -- like many others -- has been brainwashed by society and religion to believe that she is not a worthy person without a man. And I don't see this attitude changing anytime soon.
quote: She adds that it is not so uncommon for rich Westerners to support both a wife and a mistress at the same time.
First of all, even if that was the case, would it make it right? What's the purpose of this argument? I am certain this lady has not been to the West and experienced this first hand; this is just more brainwash. I know supporters of polygamy almost always bring on the argument that it's absolutely normal and accepted in *Western* society to cheat on your partner and have a mistress. And I have observed that many people who have no first hand experience with other countries buy into this crap.
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"Hindy was not apologetic and argued that freedom of religion in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumped prohibitions against polygamous marriages."
There's some interesting implications to this. If polygamy is allowed for Muslims only, isn't that basically discrimination against non-Muslims? So then technically, to stave off a flurry of lawsuits, wouldn't polygamy have to be legal for everyone? And then by everyone, wouldn't that also mean that women could have multiple husbands? And would either case benefit our society as a whole?
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quote: This women -- like many others -- has been brainwashed by society and religion to believe that she is not a worthy person without a man. And I don't see this attitude changing anytime soon.
Well, at least in Egypt that certainly seems to be the case. The soceity seems to be set up in such a way that if the woman never gets married 'there must be something wrong with her', she is almost untouchable after a certain age. But, we have a particular member here on ES (american) and she has the exact same mindset. She can't seem to be without a man EVER, jumps from one to the next in an effort to feel taken care of and adored. I can't explain why, but the years I understood myself the MOST were when I was single, living alone and supporting myself. Now that I am married I can look back and see how it really helped me to grow and develop my sense of self-worth. Perhaps the soceities are set up here in such a way where the women/girls hardly ever are on their own prior to marriage...their self worths are absolutely wrapped up men, whether they be husbands, brothers, fathers or uncles. With the American woman mentioned above, IMO she's simply searching for validation that she is acceptable as a woman/wife in a soceity where she doesn't HAVE to...so in my opinion that is far worse. BUT I agree with you Dalia, I don't see this attitude changing anytime soon either, at least not until women are allowed to find their self-worth without having it validated through a man even before marriage!~
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Strangeways.: "Hindy was not apologetic and argued that freedom of religion in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumped prohibitions against polygamous marriages."
There's some interesting implications to this. If polygamy is allowed for Muslims only, isn't that basically discrimination against non-Muslims? So then technically, to stave off a flurry of lawsuits, wouldn't polygamy have to be legal for everyone? And then by everyone, wouldn't that also mean that women could have multiple husbands? And would either case benefit our society as a whole?
You mean in Western soceities, do you not? I just wnat to make sure what context you're speaking of.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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"Hindy is using polygamy as a proxy for his fundamentalist version of Islam, something he wants to see legitimized in Canadian society as a whole."
"He has admitted as much, challenging Ontario’s government to dare stop him.
“If the laws of the country conflict with Islamic law, if one goes against the other, then I am going to follow Islamic law, simple as that,” he told the Star. " Interviewed after the Star story appeared on the John Oakley Show on AM 640Toronto, Hindy was not apologetic and argued that freedom of religion in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumped prohibitions against polygamous marriages."
And one must presume therefore, that it ALSO trumps, the Canadian laws that would forbid, for example, forced marriage to a pre-pubescent girl a la Mohammed and Aisha, or the stoning of adulterers, or the cutting off the hand of a thief, or talaq divorce, or beating your wife? And what about Canadian laws on freedom of conscience and freedom of speech?
Suppose Hindy 'executes' a Muslim who has converted to Christianity, and claims a 'freedom of religion' defence - 'my religion says I have to kill people who try to leave it'!
Posts: 1029 | Registered: Feb 2008
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posted
I'm sure that most will disagree, but......I feel that she was very selfish in how she handled this situation. While it may have been a shock to discover her husband had taken, not one, but two more wives, she made the choice to stay. It is heartbreaking to read the anger her children had, the tears they shed, and the lies they were told. This entire relationship was based on lies and broken promises. If having four children wasn't enough, she got pregnant with the fifth! She chose to stay in Egypt, overseeing the building of a villa, keeping his clothes ironed and folded in a specific order , preparing his favorite meals......all of this, if he decided to drop in for a visit.
quote: In Rigby's eyes, whether polygamy is illegal or legal is irrelevant. "If it is happening and it is here, then there should be some kind of support system set up to protect us," she said, suggesting marriage workshops or support groups for women.
It is irrelevant......we have choices. Hers was to stay, until she finally realized that he was not going to give her equal time, as the other wives.
It angers me to read that she thinks there should be support groups set up to protect her! There should be support groups set up to protect the children in all of this! Yes, he may be scum....but, what is her part in this?
Posts: 143 | From: Alexandria, Egypt | Registered: Apr 2002
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quote:Originally posted by Strangeways.: Well yes.
From the article:
"Hindy is using polygamy as a proxy for his fundamentalist version of Islam, something he wants to see legitimized in Canadian society as a whole."
"He has admitted as much, challenging Ontario’s government to dare stop him.
“If the laws of the country conflict with Islamic law, if one goes against the other, then I am going to follow Islamic law, simple as that,” he told the Star. " Interviewed after the Star story appeared on the John Oakley Show on AM 640Toronto, Hindy was not apologetic and argued that freedom of religion in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms trumped prohibitions against polygamous marriages."
And one must presume therefore, that it ALSO trumps, the Canadian laws that would forbid, for example, forced marriage to a pre-pubescent girl a la Mohammed and Aisha, or the stoning of adulterers, or the cutting off the hand of a thief, or talaq divorce, or beating your wife? And what about Canadian laws on freedom of conscience and freedom of speech?
Suppose Hindy 'executes' a Muslim who has converted to Christianity, and claims a 'freedom of religion' defence - 'my religion says I have to kill people who try to leave it'!
Well I don't ever see that happening, freedom of religion is one thing, freedom FROM religion is another.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by lynn: I'm sure that most will disagree, but......I feel that she was very selfish in how she handled this situation. While it may have been a shock to discover her husband had taken, not one, but two more wives, she made the choice to stay. It is heartbreaking to read the anger her children had, the tears they shed, and the lies they were told. This entire relationship was based on lies and broken promises. If having four children wasn't enough, she got pregnant with the fifth! She chose to stay in Egypt, overseeing the building of a villa, keeping his clothes ironed and folded in a specific order , preparing his favorite meals......all of this, if he decided to drop in for a visit.
quote: In Rigby's eyes, whether polygamy is illegal or legal is irrelevant. "If it is happening and it is here, then there should be some kind of support system set up to protect us," she said, suggesting marriage workshops or support groups for women.
It is irrelevant......we have choices. Hers was to stay, until she finally realized that he was not going to give her equal time, as the other wives.
It angers me to read that she thinks there should be support groups set up to protect her! There should be support groups set up to protect the children in all of this! Yes, he may be scum....but, what is her part in this?
I do think you have a valid point...especially about the pregnancies. However, we must realize she comes from a world where it might be a sort of pressure to stay in the marriage, we don't know what was really going through her mind or what her family was pushing her to do. I don't want to throw her under the bus necessarily, he is definitely to blame, but I will go as far as to say any woman who would put up with this against her wishes is just asking for it. HOWEVER, she did finally leave, and much like an abused woman who finally leaves her abuser after finally 'seeing the light', abuse by definition puts people in situations they don't know how they would react until/unless they are there.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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quote:Originally posted by With a name like Smuckers: But, we have a particular member here on ES (american) and she has the exact same mindset. She can't seem to be without a man EVER, jumps from one to the next in an effort to feel taken care of and adored. I can't explain why, but the years I understood myself the MOST were when I was single, living alone and supporting myself. Now that I am married I can look back and see how it really helped me to grow and develop my sense of self-worth.
It seems you can't escape MH no matter which thread you open.
I know what you mean, Smuckers, but I believe you can't compare.
Yes, there are many women (and men, btw!) who cannot bear being on their own, who feel they need a partner to validate them and give their life meaning. I'd say it's a very common thing. I know people who have never been single for more than a few weeks, they might have a longterm relationship for years, then there's a breakup and after a very short time they have a new partner. In fact, those people only break up if a new partner is already on the scene since they are deadly afraid of being on their own. I know people who can't bear to even spend a weekend on their own, I know people who continously have affairs or surround themselves with people who don't really mean anything to them because they can't bear being on their own. And so on.
But ... that's mainly an individual and psychological issue. These people are not being pressured by society, family or religion as the ones we were talking about, they are not being branded as losers or weirdos if they chose to be single, and they are not being perceived as a problem or a threat to society as is the case with unmarried women in Egypt, for example. They are not being brainwashed from childhood on that marriage is the ultimate goal in their life and that without it life will be utterly meaningless.
Posts: 3587 | Registered: Mar 2006
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I was simply try using the member as an example that there are women (and sure, some men) who seem to have a hiccup when it comes to this issue of not being able to be alone EVER. You are right that their issues are psychological and not social, but is the end result any different? Sure they might not be brainwashed from childhood that marriage is the ultimate life-goal but the people (for example in the West) who do the same are still brainwashed psychologically into thinking that they are not whole without someone else. The social stigma isn't there but the end result is still the same (aside from social stigma). There are still children affected, families torn apart, etc.
However, I will agree that the issue of the polygamists here are a far cry from the issues of people who can't seem to be alone. I do find it ironic that the soceity would perceive an divorced (or unmarried) woman as a threat to soceity but the same soceity cannot see how a man taking two, three or four wives while his wife sits home in misery is any better.
I will give an example. I have a friend in Egypt and her own father married a 2nd wife. My friends mother (the first wife) didn't want to put up with this and divorced him. He allowed her - obviously preferring Miss. New Wife to the older one (gag) and he had other children with Miss. New Wife. My friend told me of always feeling jealously for the other children. Even they were her half brothers/sisters, she always felt a jealous for her fathers attentions, and resented him for seemingly preferring to be with his NEW children over her and her brother. It really affected her and her brother and she claims it has affected her marriage today. She has issues of abandonment with her husband, feels like she needs constant attention and lashes out at her husband if he tries to spend 'too much time with his nieces and nephews'...as she doesn't want their children to feel jealous as she did. All of this is better than a woman being divorced or never marrying? I don't know about that. I think the real issue is the independence of women. Once the women become independent and maybe start to see that having a man around would be nice but isn't NECESSARY to their life to give it meaning and make them feel whole, the men cease to have control. That's my personal opinion.
I do see how many Western social situations might point to others to prove 'well look at the breakdown in the families in the West'...but I personally believe the breakdown in the families in the West (some not all) has little to do with the women feeling independent. That is an entirely different subject. It's very obvious, on the other hand, that the women (for example) in Egypt who feel the need to stay in miserable marriages because of social stigma and the soceity and religion giving the man the right to his halal affairs is also not working as it's about control. The man is putting the responsibility on the woman to shoulder the load of heartache, misery, childrens self esteem, family dignity and the morality between being loyal to your family and your religion. I think many men have made this anything but moral or religious and that's really shameful. That's what I think.
Posts: 13440 | Registered: Feb 2006
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Anyway, sorry but I'm too good for just one woman. I think I'm gonna offer myself for free to all the female population...excluding the ugly ones.
Posts: 6335 | From: Straight to my heart. | Registered: Sep 2007
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You would have to argue that there aren't enough men to go around. Or we could argue that there aren't enough men in Egypt (for example) able to financially care for a woman as his wife and their children. Since the men marrying more than one usually have a higher income - does that mean he is morally obligated to take another wife because he is 'able to' or else there will be single women wandering Egypt in their fate of never finding ' a man' ? ![[Frown]](frown.gif)
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