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Marwa al-Sherbini, a 32-year-old Egyptian national who was suing her attacker after he insulted her for wearing the Islamic headscarf. The attacker, identified only as Alex W., was appealing the €780 fine he was ordered to pay in the libel suit.
Al-Sherbini was the wife of Egyptian academic Elwi Ali-Okaz. He was also hurt in the incident after he tried to help his wife and is in critical condition in hospital. Police are now investigating Alex W. for manslaughter
The investigation into this bloody crime is bound to show there are some indications the suspect was hostile toward foreigners – the signs are there,” said Saxony police chief Bernd Merbitz told Bild
The stabbing happened July 1, just before al-Sherbini was to give her evidence. During the struggle, other bystanders were also injured and police fired a shot. Al-Sherbini died in the courtroom.
The 28-year-old attacker was overpowered and is now under investigation for manslaughter, a spokesman for the Dresden prosecutor's office said.
7. Write an article to the newspapers Write to the main stream media in Germany and the UK requesting them to focus on the crime and what it means to you.
9. Write comments in chat rooms/forums Help people to understand how vicious this crime was and why it must not be forgotten.
10. Facebook Visit the facebook page dedicated to Marwa and add your opinion
11. Contact the family to express your condolences Send Telegram to AlShirbini Family, 18 Ahmad Fathy Street, Glim
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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"So do not become weak (against your enemy), nor be sad, and you will be superior (in victory) if you are indeed (true) believers." [3:139]
"Let those (believers) who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter fight in the Cause of Allaah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allaah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward." [4:74]
There is no god but Allaah and the Germans are the enemies of Allaah! 32-year old pregnant Egyptian Muslimah Marwa el-Sherbini was stabbed by a 28-year-old Russian of German descent Kuffur Criminal Alex W. and our German Muslim group criticized German government officials and the media for not paying enough attention to the crime!
Menassat.com reports:
[32-year old Egyptian woman Marwa el-Sherbini was murdered in a Dresden court room - stabbed 18 times in front of her young son in an apparent hate crime. Five days on, there has been little media attention even in Germany, and the Egyptian blogosphere has responded in tandem with the outrage on the Egyptian street - calling the incident racist and anti-Islamic.
German prosecutors said that as El-Sherbini's husband came to her aid, he was also stabbed by the neighbor and then shot in the leg by a security guard who initially "mistook him for the attacker" ]
"O Brothers in Islaam! AM YOUR SISTER! Am being Stabbed 18 times by German Kuffur Alex Nazi! My Husband was stabbed by a neighbor and shot by Kuffur security guards who then protected the criminal Alex! How many more Hijaabi sisters do you want to see stabbed by kuffurs?? How many more sisters do you want to see violated in the eyes of Kuffurs?? Today, am attacked and I hope I gained martyrdom fee sabi lillah In Sha' Allaah, tomorrow your women folk will be attacked, raped, tortured, what would be YOUR RESPONSE?? Pay heed to Sister Fatima's video and respond bi'iznillah!!"
WITH THE PERMISSION OF ALLAH, O AMEER Al-JIHAAD!! WHEREVER YOU ARE, WHOEVER YOU ARE, DECLARE AL-JIHAAD AGAINST NAZI GERMANY!! ONE OF THE REAL TERRORISTS ARE ANTI-HIJABI KUFFURS THAT ARE EXPOSED TODAY!!
O MUSLIM UMMAH!!
"And fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief and worshipping of others along with Allah) and (all and every kind of) worship is for Allaah (Alone). But if they cease, let there be no transgression except against the wrong-doers" [2:193]
"Let those (believers) who sell the life of this world for the Hereafter fight in the Cause of Allaah, and whoso fights in the Cause of Allaah, and is killed or gets victory, We shall bestow on him a great reward." [4:74]
"And what is wrong with you that you fight not in the Cause of Allah, and for those weak, ill treated and oppressed among men, women, and children, whose cry is: "Our Lord! Rescue us from this town whose people are oppressors; and raise for us from You one who will protect, and raise for us from You one who will help." [4:75]
"Those who believe, fight in the Cause of Allah, and those who disbelieve, fight in the cause of Taaghoot (Satan, etc.). So fight you against the friends of Shaytaan (Satan); Ever feeble indeed is the plot of Shaytaan (Satan). " [4:76]
"And that He might test the hypocrites, it was said to them: "Come, fight in the Way of Allaah or (at least) defend yourselves." They said: "Had we known that fighting will take place, we would certainly have followed you." [3:167]
"Have you not seen those who were told to hold back their hands (from fighting) and perform the prayer, and pay alms, but when the fighting was ordained for them, behold! a section of them fear men as they fear Allaah or even more. They say: "Our Lord! Why have you ordained for us fighting? Would that you had granted us respite for a short period?" Say: "Short is the enjoyment of this world. The Hereafter is (far) better for him who fears Allah, and you shall not be dealt with unjustly even equal to the thread of a date stone." [4:77]
"Not equal are those of the believers who sit (at home), except those who are disabled (by injury or are blind or lame, etc.), and those who strive hard and fight in the Cause of Allaah with their wealth and their lives. Allaah has preferred in grades those who strive hard and fight with their wealth and their lives above those who sit (at home). Unto each, Allaah has promised good (Paradise), but Allaah has preferred those who strive hard and fight, above those who sit (at home) by a huge reward" [4:95]
"O you who believe! Whoever from among you turns back from his religion, Allaah will bring a people whom He will love and they will love Him; humble towards the believers, stern towards the disbelievers, fighting in the Way of Allaah, and never afraid of the blame of the blamers. That is the Grace of Allaah which He bestows on whom He wills. And Allaah is All-Sufficient for His creatures' needs, All-Knowing." [5:54]
"Our Lord! Punish us not if we forget or fall into error, our Lord! Lay not on us a burden like that which You did lay on those before us (Jews and Christians); our Lord! Put not on us a burden greater than we have strength to bear. Pardon us and grant us Forgiveness. Have mercy on us. You are our Maula (Patron, Supporter and Protector, etc.) and give us victory over the disbelieving people." [2:286]
"Our Lord! Forgive us our sins and our transgressions (in keeping our duties to You), establish our feet firmly, and give us victory over the disbelieving folk." [3:147]
Ameeeeeeeeen!!!Ukhtee Marwa el-Sherbini (Hijabi Shaheed In Sha' Allaah)
Ukhtee Marwa el-Sherbini (Shaheed In Sha' Allaah) There is no god but Allaah and the Germans are the enemies of Allaah! 32-year old pregnant Egyptian Muslimah Marwa el-Sherbini was stabbed by a 28-year-old Russian of German descent Kuffur Criminal Alex W. and our German Muslim group criticized German government officials and the media for not paying enough attention to the crime! WITH THE PERMISSION OF ALLAH, DECLARE AL-JIHAAD AGAINST GERMANY!!
Ukhtee Marwa el-Sherbini (Shaheed In Sha' Allaah) Jihaad is not against Muslims. Please kindly study the rulings of Jihaad. It's to make Allaah's word more Supreme, and to wipe-off those kuffurs who are threat to Islaam, Muslims, Prophet Muhammad (saws) and Hijaab. The criminal perpetrator would be protected by German govt. and am sure he will be safe coz nowhere in media do you find that he will be punished. And hence German govt. can never be denied as enemies of Allaah and friend of Shaytaan.RapporterenUkhtee Marwa el-Sherbini (Shaheed In Sha' Allaah) op 11 juli om 14:30 Sis Farzana, check this post:
What I also find irritating is that I see a lot of allegiations on those sites that are simply untrue, and I wonder why people don't bother to check before distributing them further. Those who are busy throwing around Qur'anic verses about the kuffar should remember that there are also verses that forbid slander and urge the believers to verify information before believing or distributing it further.
Nowhere in the media you find that the perpetrator will be punished
I'm 110% sure that not more than 15% of Germans know about it, and even if, they don't like to talk about it
it was down played, few big media houses reported it
That's simply untrue and makes me think the poster has either not checked any media, or is intentionally lying, or maybe plain stupid. I would like to comment on this, but I don't want to become a "fan" of this group. This "Ukhtee" person who started the group is a raving lunatic.
Also, I keep reading that the German media is ignoring the case, that nobody cares etc. I really don't have a clue how people come up with those claims. The media in Germany is full of this case, it's in every newspaper every day, it's being mentioned on the national news on TV, and so on.
So what do these people want?
This case is getting way more attention in the German media than those cases where Germans were being murdered by terrorists in Egypt did. So why the whining, the complaints and allegiations that Germans don't care?
Posts: 2803 | Registered: Feb 2007
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What I also find irritating is that I see a lot of allegiations on those sites that are simply untrue, and I wonder why people don't bother to check before distributing them further. Those who are busy throwing around Qur'anic verses about the kuffar should remember that there are also verses that forbid slander and urge the believers to verify information before believing or distributing it further.
Nowhere in the media you find that the perpetrator will be punished
I'm 110% sure that not more than 15% of Germans know about it, and even if, they don't like to talk about it
it was down played, few big media houses reported it
That's simply untrue and makes me think the poster has either not checked any media, or is intentionally lying, or maybe plain stupid. I would like to comment on this, but I don't want to become a "fan" of this group. This "Ukhtee" person who started the group is a raving lunatic.
Also, I keep reading that the German media is ignoring the case, that nobody cares etc. I really don't have a clue how people come up with those claims. The media in Germany is full of this case, it's in every newspaper every day, it's being mentioned on the national news on TV, and so on.
So what do these people want?
This case is getting way more attention in the German media than those cases where Germans were being murdered by terrorists in Egypt did. So why the whining, the complaints and allegiations that Germans don't care?
They want to put across to other Muslims that Islam is a victim Dalia. Yet again those nasty kufar blah blah blah crap. If she had been a Hindu it would be dealt with as if shed been German, the 'ummah' want to show why they are so angry at the nasty 'enemies of Allah' (ie all none muslims)
its all part of the brainwashing Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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What do these people want? I'm afraid they just want to sow hatred. It makes me feel more and more an unwanted and unaccepted outsider, just as this kind of expressions are making the muslims feel unaccepted themselves.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: What do these people want? I'm afraid they just want to sow hatred. It makes me feel more and more an unwanted and unaccepted outsider, just as this kind of expressions are making the muslims feel unaccepted themselves.
Well... Isn't it normal? Did anyone criticze the States when they erected a big cross right after 9/11 happened? They all blamed the WHOLE Muslim world and treat all the Muslims entering to the States like s**t ..
Muslims were not like that before.. But the west started everything..
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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The West started everything...I don't even WANT to get into this kind of discussion, because again, it only makes both sides feel unwanted and unappreciated. If a muslim Facebook-page is talking about kafirs in the way they are doing here, to me, it feels like a personal attack. I guess a muslim will feel the same when there are sminilar tained hatred-messages about them. So, what kind of a solution can we expect from sowing hatred? None!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Exactly. Calling people to assault or kill other people, as the founder of that particular FB group is doing, is not helping anyone.
Insha' Allaah there will be brothers in this pigs (Alex W. and likes of his) own neighborhood that will deal with him and other Islamophobians and Xenophobians swiftly & painfully! Insha Allaah all the females in his family will suffer worst problems & have no chance of delivering healthy children ever!!! ...
The life of the Ummah is connected to the ink of the Scholars and the blood of the Martyrs like Sister Marwa. What is more beautiful than to write the history of the Ummah with both the ink of the scholar and his blood?? ... those who reside in the area of dresden were this has occurred should desend upon the authorities and press upon them ( physically ) until either this criminal is killed or the family agrees to accept blood money. ... Legal process? Should we embrace the ideals and values of capatalist and imperalist nation like Germany that execute 'justice' which contradicts Sharee'ah? Isn't Sharee'ah more legal and Divine than any man-made functions?
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Questionmarks, I don't say anything for starting a discussion as I hate useless discussions.
I have never felt sympathy for those radicals.
For me, those ones and that sicko Alex are in the same category. Hate feeds both of them.
What I am trying to say, again it is the western countries who started this. Serbians killed Bosnians, Israelis have been killng Palestinians and Lebaneses, America have been killing Afghans and Iraqis. And now China; they are not western but anyway, like those cases above, Uyghur Turks have been under incredible pressure for years and now China started to kill them. All of them have the same reason, they are Muslims.
The problem of the Muslim world is they don't know how to react sometimes. And another thing; where are all those people who were watching every minute of Mr.Gallaway's convoy? They screamed a lot when the reason was Palestine. Did anybody feel anything for Uyghurs? No. Because the hate is equal to Israel for them.
Islam is the religion of tolerence. Those sickos don't represent Islam. Abu Bakir always prayed as 'Ya Rabb, I have a huge body, please put me in your hell instead of all other your creatures and please have mercy on them'.. We should have a huge tolerence to all other people who is not like us, even to the worst enemies. That was the reason for Allah's sending The Prophet to the most problematic place, the Arab peninsula.. Actually the word Ummah tells it all. It comes from the word Umm/Mother and 'love the universe like a mother' is one of it is few meanings. The word Iman as well.... It derived from the word Umm .. Our prophet had never cursed anybody, never broke a heart, he visited the worst man of the era, Abu Jaleel for hundreds times. If he was impatient like those ones to other people, then he could not have found the ummah. Today's Muslim world is the result of his huge tolerance and patient.
Sorry this is a long post and maybe off topic But I want to say again, 'your religion, my religion' issue is the result of all those attacks started by the west. And like all groups, Islam has radicals and sickos.
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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Muslims were not like that before.. But the west started everything..
were 'the west' flying the planes that hit the towers?
Ayisha, don't tell me that you believe all those drama. Most probably, Bin Laden is an artist who is rented by Bush or someone who is blamed for all those scenario..
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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America's war on terrorism did not begin in September 2001. It began in November 1979. That was shortly after Ayatollah Khomeini had seized power in Iran, riding the slogan "Death to America" and sure enough, the attacks on Americans soon began. More than 800 persons lost their lives in the course of attacks by militant Islam on Americans before September 2001 more than killed by any other enemy since the Vietnam war. (Further, this listing does not include the dozens more Americans in Israel killed by militant Islamic terrorists.)
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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What I've said here earlier in another topic with the same subject; if we are going to look for who-to-blame in a historical context, it is too easy to blame, because every population has been concqering another, killing another and blamed another. It is just this attitude that makes a solution impossible. If you are willing to make peace, you can't start with a blame: It's your fault. because for every mistake the Western culture might have made, there is a similar mistake from the East findable. Then it will be a continuation of hwat we have been doing for decennia: blaming and pointing fingers. I don't feel personal responsable for what has happened between the raise of Islam and 2009, but it isn't nice to hear that we are called kuffar as if we are a kind of non-believing animals. And as a start, it is disasterous. How can you ever want peace starting with accusations, blames and insults? That counts also for your post. Your answer to my question doesn't have any good intention, even when you say later that it isn't meant to start a discussion. What do you expect then? That we simply ignore it, accept it, agree with it, while it isn't even true? Please explain this to me, because I am unable to find the logic in making such remarks without wanting discussions...
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Then what happened UT? do you remember? Or lets ask, haven't you googled yet? America provoked Iraq, gave money, sold thousands of guns and the Iran-Iraq war started. 1 Mıllıon people dead, damage around USD 150 billion..
See? Than the revenge of 800 persons were taken Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:What I am trying to say, again it is the western countries who started this. Serbians killed Bosnians, Israelis have been killng Palestinians and Lebaneses, America have been killing Afghans and Iraqis.
And Turkey have been killing Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, etc.
Says Ali Sina:
The problem with us Muslim is that we are not fair. We lack justice. We do not understand the principle of Golden Rule. We are told that God has created the entire world to submit itself to us and pay us tribute for we are the best people. We arrogantly believe in this nonsense and we are unable to see the facts and our own flaws.
I hear Muslims shouting for the rights of the Muslims in Kashmir, Palestine or Chechnya but forget that all the minorities in Islamic countries are called Dhimi and their rights is non-existent. Tell me please where were you when the Taliban forced the Hindus to wear yellow badges or destroyed the statute of Buddha? Did you protest when the Muslims bombed the Parliament of India? Why you kept silent when you read about the murder of the Christians is Pakistan? What did you do when you heard that the Muslims massacred entire villages Christians in Algeria, Rwanda, Sudan or Timor? Today the Hindus in Bangladesh are being persecuted. Why don't you say anything? The hands of the Muslims are dripping with blood. But we do not hear other Muslims protesting. Yet the same 'Christian' West made war against another Christian nation, the Serbs, to free the Kosovars, a Muslim people. Would such thing ever happen in any Islamic country? Can you imagine that a Muslim nation support a war against another Muslim nation to defend a non-Muslim country?
Many of us are ashamed of what our brethren do. We do not buy the lies that the non-Muslims hate us. You say that Muslims rally around Islam to protect their temporal Interest. I disagree. Islam is the very cause of our enslavement. We have to free ourselves from Islam first before we can protect any Interest. We do not even know what is good for us. We need science, knowledge, industries, cooperation with other nations, democracy, freedom of expression, freedom of thought, equality of gender. Islam has taken all these from us. Look at Islamic countries. See what has happened to us. Which Islamic country respects the human rights of its people? Where are Islamic scientists? It is not that there is something wrong with our brain. When we come to the west we excel in everything we do. But in Islamic countries we are like a seed sown in bad soil. We rot and never flourish.
Rallying around Islam is not protecting our temporal interest. With Islam we shall never see peace let alone prosperity. Islam is ruining our intellect. It is teaching us distorted values. It makes us hateful creatures. It converts us into zombies. Look at the Muslims in Islamic countries. Look at them when they pour into the streets shouting death to this and death to that. They are not people. They are mobsters. They act with hysteria. And yet they are our people. They are our brothers, cousins, second cousins, friends and relatives. I am fighting for them, for their freedom from the bondage of ignorance, bigotry and fanaticism. I am fighting for their temporal Interest, for their enlightenment, for their freedom. I want to see my people free. I want them prosper and to contribute positively to the world.
No one hates us. No one has closed any door towards us. The world is ready with its arms open, waiting to embrace us yet we are filled with hate and distrust. We hate the Jews and I receive emails from them asking me why do Muslims think Jews hate them when they don't? We hate the West and secretly delight when our terrorists succeed killing thousands of them. But we forget that this very West that we hate has allowed us to live freely in their land protecting our rights and came to help us in Kosovo, Kuwait and Afghanistan.
In your email you wrote, 'Muslims today are victims'. Of course Muslims are victims. But they are victims of their own ignorance. Of course in many cases Muslims were victimized by people professing other religions such as the Kosovars in Yugoslavia or the Chechens in Russia. But these victimizations are not religiously motivated. I do not see any other religious group deciding to exterminate the Muslims because of their religion. You must not confuse the retaliatory hostile actions of people of other religions with the Jihadi spirit of Muslims. The Serbs were victimized by Muslims for 600 years. Even during the WWII the Muslims of Yugoslavia sided with Hitler and caused the death of many Serbs. The inhumane treatment of the Serbs against the Bosnians was due to an old grudge caused by Muslims. In Chechnya the Chechens are considered as separatists. They are not under attack because of their religion. Please do not interpret this as if I am in agreement that a nation be kept in a confederacy without their consent and with force, but the point is that unlike what Muslims claims there is no religious persecution in Chechnya nor in any other place in the world against Muslims simply because they are Muslims. On the other hand we see that Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Bahais and Ahmadis in Islamic countries are persecuted because of their faith.
No. Other faiths do not produce saintly human beings. If you read more of my writings you know I disagree with all religions and consider all of them useless and superfluous. But Islam is a distinct case. No other religion encourages its followers to act with violence. Even the Old Testament that contains many brutalities attributed to Moses, Joshua and other prophets of Israel does not instruct the Jews to kill the non-Jews. Those barbarities of the Bible are considered to be historic incidents (although in reality they are just fables and Moses may have never existed) not instructions to kill as the verses of Quran are.
As for Zionism I am not an expert. However it is clear that no Muslim can be unbiased in passing judgment on Israeli Palestinian problem. You say that "Zionism, which used the Jewish faith, is thus fundamentally based on the principle of ethnic cleansing," Please forgive me if I have to declare "passionately" that this statement of yours is utter nonsense. You perhaps do not know the meaning of ethnic cleansing or your faith in Islam has obfuscated your better judgment and cannot come to an unbiased opinion.
In my previous email I described ethnic cleansing as what Muhammad did to the Jews of Medina. The prophet that you follow attacked the Jewish settlements of Medina and though they did not fight back and surrendered, he massacred their men tool their women and children as slave and sold them. Read the story of the Jews and then tell me whether you still think this man was a prophet of God. What Muhammad did to other religions in Arabia (Hijaz) was ethnic cleansing. What the Muslims are doing to the Christians, Buddhists, Hindus. Ahmadis and Bahais in all Islamic countries is ethnic cleansing, because you can see a systematic persecution of these minorities in all Islamic countries. These minorities are massacred, imprisoned and forced to exile. This is ethnic cleansing. The Jews are not persecuting the Palestinians. The Palestinians are free in Israel and their rights are protected. But of course you cannot expect trust from a people that you constantly terrorize. There is a lot of bad blood among the Jews and Palestinians. The hatred is mutual. But try to be fair in you judgment. How would you react if you were an Israeli constantly being harassed by the Palestinian suicide bombers? What would you do to a people who openly deny your right to exist?
You speak of Israel as if it actually belonged to the Palestinians from the dawn of time. Have you read the history? Israel belonged to Israelis for at least 4000 years. That is what we read in the Bible. Of course I do not think that whatever is in the Bible is true but we can at lease be certain that the Jews called Israel their home for thousands of years. Jerusalem and the West Bank that the Palestinians claim as their capital belonged to the Jews. Jerusalem was built by the Jews. It was destroyed by Nebuchadnazer and rebuilt by the Jews. In one occasion the king of Persia paid the Jews to go to Israel and rebuild their temple and pray to their God. This is reported in the book of Ezra.
What about Palestine? Well Palestine never existed as a country. Palestine is the name of a region. We never had a Palestinian state. The Palestinians of today are Arabs. Palestine before the 1967 was under the occupation of Jordan. No one complained at that time. Why so much fuss when the Jews have occupied it? The answer is simple. Muslims hate the Jews. The reason for this is because Muhammad told them to hate the Jews. Prior to Muhammad, the Jews and the Arabs were allies. They intermarried and traded with each other. Muhammad is the founder of the religious animosity between the Arabs and the Jews that has lasted for 1400 years and is causing the death of innocent people even today. All this is documented in my article about the Jews of Arabia. [...]
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:What I am trying to say, again it is the western countries who started this. Serbians killed Bosnians, Israelis have been killng Palestinians and Lebaneses, America have been killing Afghans and Iraqis.
And Turkey have been killing Armenians, Kurds, Assyrians, etc.
Ahahaha wallahee I was expecting this This is your problem UT, you repeat yourself a lot and you never defend your opinion with your own words Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Please explain this to me, because I am unable to find the logic in making such remarks without wanting discussions...
What remark I did for confusing you questionmarks? You mean 'the west started' sentence?
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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Muslims were not like that before.. But the west started everything..
were 'the west' flying the planes that hit the towers?
Ayisha, don't tell me that you believe all those drama. Most probably, Bin Laden is an artist who is rented by Bush or someone who is blamed for all those scenario..
shah I asked a question sparked by your comment 'the west started everything', you replied with a question that you assume what I believe based on the question I asked you, your assumptions are wrong.
I agree actually with your post about the prophet but the problems arise when hadith are looked at as they do not portray the man you and I believe Muhammed to have been, and sadly although the rest of the 'ummah' on one hand believe Muhammed was a peaceful man and that Islam is peaceful many ALSO are the fanaticals who want to blow everyone up including themselves! How do you, or anyone, reconcile those two very different things?
We can go as far back as history allows and there have ALWAYS been wars of some type, always! Who started it? Mankind did!
I understand anger, but the facebook thing I find quite shocking, as I also found quite shocking the reaction when the Danish cartoons came out actually. These reactions always make me think of when Muhammed was in Taif, his reactions were nothing like the reactions of these people and the crimes were against him himself, not someone he had never met but happened to have the same religion.
Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Please explain this to me, because I am unable to find the logic in making such remarks without wanting discussions...
What remark I did for confusing you questionmarks? You mean 'the west started' sentence?
Yes, and that it wasn't strange that the muslims in Egypt reacted the way they did. They reacted this way because the media covered the event in a certain way, after that the government reacted in a certain way, while the whole incident is following western laws. The perpetrator shall be punished by western law. They show it like that Russian gets away with it...
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Didn't read all of this Facebook text but it is so stupid that half of the western world seems to be attacked because of this or something, or at least whole Germany. Yes it is very sad this happened but it happens everywhere, to all nationalities. Hello, world is a bad place. How about foreigners who have been killed by Egyptians, I know of an Egyptian who killed a Finn so I guess I should start hating all Egyptians now and say all Egyptians are terrorists and are out to kill westerners
Just makes me so angry.
Posts: 758 | From: Finland | Registered: Jun 2006
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a foreign woman was killed in Luxor by her Egyptian husband. He battered her with a piece of wood.
They hung him
-------------------- If you don't learn from your mistakes, there's no sense making them. Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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On both sides there is a revolting atmosphere, instigated by the media and politics. The most trivial events are taken for a uproar. So called 'experts' are giving their opinions, about 'the' islam or 'christianity' as if a religion isn't a collection of individuals but a absolute known fact. And indeed, the mass is following like stirred up sheep, all following the public opinion that has been made by someone who had different intentions. They only hear what they like to hear, they only see what they like to see, and so we notice that there must be a lot of hidden agression behind the friendly faces.
We are making it more and more difficult to respect the other.
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Please explain this to me, because I am unable to find the logic in making such remarks without wanting discussions...
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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Its a sad and shocking crime that must be dealt with, personally I find places like Algeria far more violent to muslims than german non muslims to muslims.
The person who made that site is a very ignorant person who is fuelled upon emotions and no logic. They dont represent Islam they represent themselves, I cant stand them they are as dangerous to muslims as they are to non muslims, infact they do MORE harm to the muslims than anything else. Everyone goes on his emotions and what he thinks is right these days...people just make it up as they go along to suit and fit them.
Posts: 49 | Registered: Feb 2006
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They indeed contribute to the negative image of Islam in the West. On the other side there are tenthousands who are doing the same for the Western world. We all know that. My problem with it, is that, as soon when there is an incident, they embrace it to view their opinion, and the mass follows. Even on a board like this. Think it's not so difficult to count, but we see the so called objective members mre or less join the side of the troublemakers, with only óne reason: they are muslim. I cannot imagine that, when they should use their brains, they would say the same.It's ridiculous!
-------------------- “Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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I find it odd that the killer is to be charged with Manslaughter. He went to the court armed with a knife, so presmably this was a premeditated crime, no? And a sustained attack like that suggests he meant to finish the job. Or do all citizens of Germany carry knives to court? He is Russian by birth actually.
Posts: 14 | From: alex | Registered: Jul 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Think it's not so difficult to count, but we see the so called objective members mre or less join the side of the troublemakers, with only óne reason: they are muslim. I cannot imagine that, when they should use their brains, they would say the same.It's ridiculous!
As a 'so called objective member', if all these criticism comes from a person who calls black people as 'nigger' and gives the impression that she is a little bit racist, then I don't take it serious... Sorry, before you criticize, you should predict what you will hear.
Nobody is defending those sick Muslims here.
It is not the matter of being Muslim. I myself try to make a different point of view here. And we, Middle East people, are sensitive about the nationalism and religion subjects and always ready to fight. This may be again 'ridicilous' for you but this is what the other 'brain using' members like you, should respect and take into account.
Once I said 'she doesnt have an innocent beauty' for Ms Egypt and one of brain using members blamed me that I think so as I m a Muslim.. Where were you all at that time to ask 'what's religion got to do with it?'? Nobody.. Doube standard..
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: Think it's not so difficult to count, but we see the so called objective members mre or less join the side of the troublemakers, with only óne reason: they are muslim. I cannot imagine that, when they should use their brains, they would say the same.It's ridiculous!
As a 'so called objective member', if all these criticism comes from a person who calls black people as 'nigger' and gives the impression that she is a little bit racist, then I don't take it serious... Sorry, before you criticize, you should predict what you will hear.
Nobody is defending those sick Muslims here.
It is not the matter of being Muslim. I myself try to make a different point of view here. And we, Middle East people, are sensitive about the nationalism and religion subjects and always ready to fight. This may be again 'ridicilous' for you but this is what the other 'brain using' members like you, should respect and take into account.
Like the muslims should also take into account that we are use to freely critize what/who we want and that we are not so hyper sensitive about critical stuff. We are use to debates where people critize god - kings- queens - kids - football - bicycles - flowers - EVERYTHING.
In my opinion nearly all muslims/arabs lack self critisism and the ability to laugh at them selves.
Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Questionmarks: [q] Think it's not so difficult to count, but we see the so called objective members mre or less join the side of the troublemakers, with only óne reason: they are muslim. I cannot imagine that, when they should use their brains, they would say the same.It's ridiculous! [/qb]
As a 'so called objective member', if all these criticism comes from a person who calls black people as 'nigger' and gives the impression that she is a little bit racist, then I don't take it serious... Sorry, before you criticize, you should predict what you will hear.
This is a weakness. Falling back on what has been said here years ago, and what has been explained, because it was a matter of translation. 'Nigger' isn't a bad word in Dutch.BUT, if you feel the need to bring this in, while it hasn't has anything to do with the subject, go ahead. It's telling more about YOu as it does about ME.
Nobody is defending those sick Muslims here.
Suggest you read the 3 topics back, then you will see who has been defending who.
It is not the matter of being Muslim. I myself try to make a different point of view here. And we, Middle East people, are sensitive about the nationalism and religion subjects and always ready to fight. This may be again 'ridicilous' for you but this is what the other 'brain using' members like you, should respect and take into account.
Should we respect you are always ready to fight??? Why should we? It is going into all normal norms and values, including the religious ones. From the other side YOU could keep in mind that we, as Western people always are ready for critic. As Tibe says, we are free to do so, against everyone. If you are demanding respect for your customs, we can do the same for ours
Once I said 'she doesnt have an innocent beauty' for Ms Egypt and one of brain using members blamed me that I think so as I m a Muslim.. Where were you all at that time to ask 'what's religion got to do with it?'? Nobody.. Doube standard.. [/q]
Was that me? I don't remember, and I don't read all posts. Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: Islam is the religion of tolerence. Those sickos don't represent Islam.
You say that Islam is the religion of tolerance. You base that on the Medinan period when Muhammad was still weak, and in a minority position.
Yet there is another side to Islam. The idea that Islam has only one face is completely false. There has always been a psychological crisis in Islam, and if I were to diagnose it as having a particular mental illness, I would probably argue that it suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder. Islam has never been able to decide whether it wants to live in peace with unbelievers, or to pile their severed, unbelieving heads into a giant pyramid. One Muslim detonates a bomb on a bus filled with passengers, while another Muslim says on the evening news, "Islam is a religion of peace." Each side quotes the Quran to support its actions. However, it may be even more important to note that each of them is following the example set by Muhammad.
The reason that Islam suffers from Multiple Personality Disorder is that its founder also suffered from this disorder. I don’t mean this to be taken literally, of course. It is only meant to describe a peculiar phenomenon that went on in Muhammad’s head. When Muhammad first began receiving his "revelations," many of his neighbors in the city of Mecca took it upon themselves to mock and reject him. Muhammad was a threat both to their lifestyles and to their source of wealth (the pagan idols of the city brought plenty of revenue). For 13 years Muhammad preached in Mecca but less than 100 people accepted him. Meccans preferred Al Nadir, another storyteller to him. During this period, Muhammad was humble, devout in many ways, obedient to the message handed down to him, faithful in giving to the poor, and, in general, a fine moral example. He preached a religion of peace, and the hadiths we have from this period reflect his peaceful temperament.
Then something happened. Muhammad fled Mecca and moved to Medina, where his political power rapidly increased. Soon he and his followers began raiding caravans to support the fledgling religion and, while Muhammad’s enemies multiplied, so did his followers. What followed can only be described as a reign of terror for those who refused to submit to Islam. Both men and women were slaughtered for writing satirical poems against Muhammad, and those who left the Islamic faith were exterminated. One woman was murdered in the dark for writing a poem against Muhammad; after she was slain, Muhammad declared that "Two goats won’t butt their heads about her." Hundreds of Jews were beheaded (after surrendering) for standing against Muhammad, and their wives and children were sold into slavery. A blind man who was reportedly more than a hundred years old had his head split open for saying that, if he could only see, he would throw a handful of dust at Muhammad. When a man named Uqba was about to be killed by Muslims and showed concern for his family by asking, "But who will look after my children, O Muhammad?" Muhammad answered by telling the doomed man that Hell would take care of them.
There are, of course, far more examples of violence than the ones listed here, but these should be sufficient to provide a picture of Muhammad’s idea of how Muslims should treat those who refuse to submit to Islam. Was Islam a religion of tolerance for the 600-900 Jewish men and boys whose heads were piled into trenches after they had surrendered? Was Islam a religion of tolerance for the woman who was stabbed to death in the midst of her five children? Was it a religion of peace for anyone who dared to speak out against Muhammad? No, it wasn’t. When Muhammad finally had a band of dedicated followers who would obey his violent commands without question, Islam was not a religion of peace.
Notice that I have approached this question regarding the nature of Islam using a basic historical analysis. Discussions about Islam typically revolve around certain verses in the Quran, but such discussions are often fruitless. The reason for this is that the Quran is very inconsistent in its approach towards unbelievers, due in large part to Muhammad’s own inconsistency. In conversations about Islam, a Muslim may argue that, according to the Qur’an, "There is no compulsion in religion" (2:256). A critic may reply with a very different passage:
Fight those who do not believe in Allah, nor in the latter day, nor do they prohibit what Allah and His Apostle have prohibited, nor follow the religion of truth, out of those who have been given the Book, until they pay the tax in acknowledgment of superiority and they are in a state of subjection (9:29).
To this the Muslim replies, "Yes, it says to fight those who do not believe, but it is referring to unbelievers who attack Islam." Thus, according to many Muslims, Islam fights, but only in self-defense. So who’s right? The solution to the debate can be found in a historical examination of Islam. It is true that Muslims are only permitted to attack when threatened, but history shows what the early Muslims considered a threat. Anything other than complete submission to Islam was regarded as a threat to Islam, and so anything other than complete submission was met with extreme hostility. Even poetry and song lyrics, when used against Muhammad, were enough to warrant a sentence of death.
Hence, the verses in the Qur’an that teach Muslims to live in peace should be examined within the historical context of Muhammad’s life, for it is this life that sheds light on an apparently ambiguous message. This historical context also sheds light on modern aspects of Islam, which ultimately derive from the life of its founder.
For instance, more than thirteen centuries ago, the relatively peaceful Muhammad fled Mecca because of intense persecution. As he fled the city, he left the path of peace farther and farther behind him. He eventually returned at the head of an army, and few were brave enough to oppose him. Islamic law was suddenly supreme, with a host of bloody tales to warn its enemies. A similar phenomenon occurs in the world today. When Muslims are in the minority (as they are in America) the message is always "Let us live in peace with one another, for Islam is a religion of tolerance and understanding." Then, once Islam has spread throughout the country, the message suddenly changes to "Anyone who stands against the Prophet is worthy of death!"
Oddly enough, this tactic has been remarkably successful for Islam. Despite more than a thousand years of bloodshed, many people are convinced that Muhammad was a gentle, humble man who never harmed anyone, and that Islam teaches its followers to be at peace with everyone who hasn’t declared war on them. Then, when someone like Osama bin Laden organizes a group of Muslims in an attack against thousands of innocent people, everyone says that he must be insane, and people around the world rush to defend Islam.
The result is simply amazing. Muslims commit acts of terror in Russia, Spain, America, England, Israel, and countless other countries around the world, and it actually causes certain people to support Islam even more! Think about it. A Muslim blows up a bus, but people don’t want other Muslims to be persecuted for it, so they start defending Islam. Legislators are among the most active in this regard. Laws threatening free speech about Islam are popping up everywhere (even in the United States and Great Britain, declaring that statements against Islam will not be tolerated. Indeed, Australia is on the verge of sending pastors to prison for quoting passages of the Quran! While protecting people is certainly a noble goal, defending Islam is an entirely different story.
If it is straight fight between moderates and radicals, the moderates will lose as the radicals have the Islamic literature and the example of Muhammad on their side. How can any moderate legitimately tell another Muslim not to do what Mohammed himself did? Even the Quran-only Muslims would have to cherry-pick verses from the Quran, and explain why, between contradicting verses, one might be picked over another.
No matter how violent Islam becomes, as long as people fail to recognize that its two faces are part of the same head (and that both faces are calmly smiling as new laws make Islam untouchable), Muhammad’s empire of faith will thrive in a world of false tolerance.
quote:Originally posted by 'Shahrazat: And like all groups, Islam has radicals and sickos.
The fact that while there may be moderate muslims amongst the many people who call themselves muslims, there are, on the other hand, hardly any moderate Islamic clerics; should be very instructive to all of us.
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote: Originally posted by Questionmarks: This is a weakness. Falling back on what has been said here years ago, and what has been explained, because it was a matter of translation. 'Nigger' isn't a bad word in Dutch.BUT, if you feel the need to bring this in, while it hasn't has anything to do with the subject, go ahead. It's telling more about YOu as it does about ME.
Yes you are right, I may not be a strong woman as you are, sorry. And you are not a stupid person for not knowing the difference between black and nigger. If you criticize people here according to what they say, then it is my right to do the same for you. I said nothing personal to you untill you made your implying starting as 'some so called objective members' Did you realize that you can't stop your anger just for the sentence 'the west started' ? You come and come again and reveal what you think. I accept that 'the west started everything' sentence was harsh and cruel but when I put all those facts about the massacres done by some countries, sorry I could not find a better explanation.
quote:Suggest you read the 3 topics back, then you will see who has been defending who.
I suggest you the same in order to understand what I meant better.
quote:Should we respect you are always ready to fight??? Why should we? It is going into all normal norms and values, including the religious ones.
With fight, I meant verbal fights here on the board.
quote:From the other side YOU could keep in mind that we, as Western people always are ready for critic.
That is what I exactly mean, but actually I am not proud of... You may be ready for crticis always, but not other societies.
quote:Was that me? I don't remember, and I don't read all posts.
No it wasn't you. And I m surprised if you missed it, seems you are always around..
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote: Originally posted by Questionmarks: This is a weakness. Falling back on what has been said here years ago, and what has been explained, because it was a matter of translation. 'Nigger' isn't a bad word in Dutch.BUT, if you feel the need to bring this in, while it hasn't has anything to do with the subject, go ahead. It's telling more about YOu as it does about ME.
Yes you are right, I may not be a strong woman as you are, sorry. And you are not a stupid person for not knowing the difference between black and nigger. If you criticize people here according to what they say, then it is my right to do the same for you. I said nothing personal to you untill you made your implying starting as 'some so called objective members' Did you realize that you can't stop your anger just for the sentence 'the west started' ? You come and come again and reveal what you think. I accept that 'the west started everything' sentence was harsh and cruel but when I put all those facts about the massacres done by some countries, sorry I could not find a better explanation.
quote:Suggest you read the 3 topics back, then you will see who has been defending who.
I suggest you the same in order to understand what I meant better.
quote:Should we respect you are always ready to fight??? Why should we? It is going into all normal norms and values, including the religious ones.
With fight, I meant verbal fights here on the board.
quote:From the other side YOU could keep in mind that we, as Western people always are ready for critic.
That is what I exactly mean, but actually I am not proud of... You may be ready for crticis always, but not other societies.
quote:Was that me? I don't remember, and I don't read all posts.
No it wasn't you. And I m surprised if you missed it, seems you are always around..
Shahrazat - i think i can be boiled down to we (westerners) think that you overreact and blows at an unfair fire. We all think its very very sad what happend to that young woman (nationality and religion doesnt really matter) but we will not be held responible as a whole nation. None of us agrees with what that idiot did and the police officers in court did just let him stab her. Why such riot over 1 human life??? Just because it happen in europe and the woman was muslim. Do you see riots in Europe when our NGO or turists gets kidnapped in the middle east/africa??? This is not 1 nation killing an innocent egyptian muslim woman - it was 1 sick russian.Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: Shahrazat - i think i can be boiled down to we (westerners) think that you overreact and blows at an unfair fre. We all think its very very sad what happend to that young woman (nationality and religion doesnt really matter) but we will not be held responible as a hole nation. None of us agrees with what that idiot did and the police officers in court did just let him stab her. Why such riot over 1 human life??? Just because it happen in europe and the woman was muslim. Do you see riots in Europe when our NGO or turists gets kidnapped in the middle east/africa??? This is not 1 nation killing an innocent egyptian muslim woman - it was 1 sick russian. [/QB]
Yes s I am aware that I am over-reacting Tibe, you are right. Maybe because of the hard and busy period I m having lately But, however, I have never said, I support those radicals, I have never seen her as a 'Muslim woman victim', I would feel the same if it was done to Jewish woman. I put some historical facts but however I didn't mean to insult someone personally or nationaly. What bothers me, questionmarks didn't want to see my point here.. Or I could not tell properly ..
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: Shahrazat - i think i can be boiled down to we (westerners) think that you overreact and blows at an unfair fre. We all think its very very sad what happend to that young woman (nationality and religion doesnt really matter) but we will not be held responible as a hole nation. None of us agrees with what that idiot did and the police officers in court did just let him stab her. Why such riot over 1 human life??? Just because it happen in europe and the woman was muslim. Do you see riots in Europe when our NGO or turists gets kidnapped in the middle east/africa??? This is not 1 nation killing an innocent egyptian muslim woman - it was 1 sick russian.
Yes s I am aware that I am over-reacting Tibe, you are right. Maybe because of the hard and busy period I m having lately [/QB]
Close the mobile phone, the laptop, the radio and everything else. Go for a walk, sit in the park and have a cold drink while y think of absolutely nothing Posts: 1325 | From: For tooti http://www.csa.gov.uk/ | Registered: May 2009
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quote: Originally posted by Questionmarks: This is a weakness. Falling back on what has been said here years ago, and what has been explained, because it was a matter of translation. 'Nigger' isn't a bad word in Dutch.BUT, if you feel the need to bring this in, while it hasn't has anything to do with the subject, go ahead. It's telling more about YOu as it does about ME.
Yes you are right, I may not be a strong woman as you are, sorry. And you are not a stupid person for not knowing the difference between black and nigger. If you criticize people here according to what they say, then it is my right to do the same for you. I said nothing personal to you untill you made your implying starting as 'some so called objective members' Did you realize that you can't stop your anger just for the sentence 'the west started' ? You come and come again and reveal what you think. I accept that 'the west started everything' sentence was harsh and cruel but when I put all those facts about the massacres done by some countries, sorry I could not find a better explanation.
quote:Suggest you read the 3 topics back, then you will see who has been defending who.
I suggest you the same in order to understand what I meant better.
quote:Should we respect you are always ready to fight??? Why should we? It is going into all normal norms and values, including the religious ones.
With fight, I meant verbal fights here on the board.
quote:From the other side YOU could keep in mind that we, as Western people always are ready for critic.
That is what I exactly mean, but actually I am not proud of... You may be ready for crticis always, but not other societies.
quote:Was that me? I don't remember, and I don't read all posts.
No it wasn't you. And I m surprised if you missed it, seems you are always around..
Okay, you were writing at the same time as I did. Think we both weren't able to make clear what we meant. And for your information: Calling somebody a black man in my country is insulting, while nigger is just a race. In the former colony Suriname it even is an official called group in the population: bushniggers. http://surinameinfo.web-log.nl/suriname/bevolkingsgroepen/index.html While in English they call it Creoles and Maroons.
Posts: 7202 | From: EU | Registered: Nov 2006
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Okey questionmarks, I noticed that you even didn't understand that, I have never said anything specifically for Marwa's incident. I only talked in general. So khalas, you are right, case closed.
Tibe, I will listen your advice. But seems impossible :sigh:
Posts: 2591 | From: **Ex Oriente Lux** | Registered: Jan 2007
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: This is not 1 nation killing an innocent egyptian muslim woman - it was 1 sick russian.
The irony of the outrage against Marwa al-Sherbini is that the assailant was in court appealing against a fine of 750 euros for insulting her in 2008. The authorities were clearly not complacent about the incident and it the court's earlier verdict that provoked the attacker's wrath last week. Despite Marwa's hijab and religion, she was empowered enough to bring a case against Axel W and received official support in doing so, but this has generally been overlooked amidst all the indignation in the Arab countries.
(source: is europe really islamophobic? the guardian)
Posts: 3773 | From: unfinished thought | Registered: Nov 2008
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quote:Originally posted by Tibe still working: Close the mobile phone, the laptop, the radio and everything else. Go for a walk, sit in the park and have a cold drink while y think of absolutely nothing
ohhhhhhhhh I wish I could take this advice too! Posts: 15090 | From: http://www.egyptalk.com/forum/ | Registered: Jul 2004
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UBBFriend: Email this page to someone!
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But I want to say again, 'your religion, my religion' issue is the result of all those attacks started by the west. And like all groups, Islam has radicals and sickos.
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